Have hardly heard a peep about the Taliban for 20 years, now they’ve taken Kabul.
Can someone give me a brief explanation of wtf happened?
Divine Angel said:
Have hardly heard a peep about the Taliban for 20 years, now they’ve taken Kabul.Can someone give me a brief explanation of wtf happened?
Taliban were pushed away, then came back.
The Taliban were always there. It’s why Western military forces were there for nearly twenty years.
The Taliban did what insurgent/guerilla forces always do when faced with superior military forces: withdraw, avoid direct confrontation, build up your forces, and wait until the time is right.
They were in no hurry, they weren’t planning on going anywhere else. In this type of war, the other side (Western nations) will eventually get tired of the cost in time, money, and lives for no foreseeable conclusion, and give up.
The Taliban had plenty of support. Pakistan was a great help to them, Iran was not unhelpful, and Russia and China were always happy to quietly lend a hand (anything that makes things difficult for the Americans is OK by them). And there was always money and recruits coming in from the Middle East – quite a number of sponsors in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.
The West had no proper counterinsurgency strategy. They had no way to isolate the Taliban from their sources of support. They couldn’t or wouldn’t deploy forces to both take and occupy territory. They couldn’t cut the Taliban off from the population. They couldn’t entirely destroy the Taliban.
All the Taliban had to do was survive, and to wait.
The US maintained a minimal force able to keep the Taliban out of central government but not able to stop them regrouping and consolidating their power base in more remote regions.
With the Western forces gone, the Taliban easily swept aside the weak government and its reluctant troops.
Police and military numbers were inadequate.
Politician and diplomat numbers were also insufficient.
The new government were afraid of the Taliban, so included them in the process of setting up the New Afghanistan.
Taliban played the politics perfectly, delaying the process while they got their shit together.
To be fair, a lot of money was spent on infrastructure, but how much of it will be used and how much of it will last under the Taliban?
Dark Orange said:
The new government were afraid of the Taliban, so included them in the process of setting up the New Afghanistan.
Taliban played the politics perfectly, delaying the process while they got their shit together.
Thanks Pakistan….
Tau.Neutrino said:
Dark Orange said:
The new government were afraid of the Taliban, so included them in the process of setting up the New Afghanistan.
Taliban played the politics perfectly, delaying the process while they got their shit together.Thanks Pakistan….
Its almost like they don’t want a stable Afghanistan government.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Dark Orange said:
The new government were afraid of the Taliban, so included them in the process of setting up the New Afghanistan.
Taliban played the politics perfectly, delaying the process while they got their shit together.Thanks Pakistan….
Its almost like they don’t want a stable Afghanistan government.
At least Canberra doesn’t have to ponder on what to do about the Afghani interpreters any longer.
Dark Orange said:
The new government were afraid of the Taliban, so included them in the process of setting up the New Afghanistan.
Taliban played the politics perfectly, delaying the process while they got their shit together.
There’s a series currently on Netflix called How to be a Tyrant, which examines the rise & reign of tyrants according to a “playbook”. What you’ve written here is almost exactly how this playbook pans out :-/
captain_spalding said:
At least Canberra doesn’t have to ponder on what to do about the Afghani interpreters any longer.
“We are ready to have a dialogue with all Afghan figures and will guarantee them the necessary protection,” he said.
He said the group was keen on having peace with everyone.
“Are you with us or against us?” while holding AK-47 at head.
Thanks for the answers, folks. I knew the Taliban were still around, but hardly a peep about them since Osama was killed. A few days ago, they rated a very short article 3/4 down the main page of news.com.au (of all places), then this morning it’s headline news that Kabul is kaput. I definitely missed something in between.
Divine Angel said:
Thanks for the answers, folks. I knew the Taliban were still around, but hardly a peep about them since Osama was killed. A few days ago, they rated a very short article 3/4 down the main page of news.com.au (of all places), then this morning it’s headline news that Kabul is kaput. I definitely missed something in between.
That is just modern journalism. The news was there, was just not deemed of interest.
I don’t think we’ve had a thread on Afganistan either here or at TOF.
It was bleedin obvious that it would end in tears when Goofy stood on that pile of rubble post 9/11 with an arm around a firefighter.. “We’re gunna smoke em out.”
The definition a “dead loss”.
Saigon April 75
clearly have many good fighters, most of the good fighters, committed fighters, it’s not the first time they persisted in a persistent way, a relentless relentlessness
transition said:
clearly have many good fighters, most of the good fighters, committed fighters, it’s not the first time they persisted in a persistent way, a relentless relentlessness
If you are going to be shot if you don’t fight then you are left with little alternative.
Ian said:
Saigon April 75
The man flying the Air America helicopter in the Saigon photo was Robert Caron.
He died in a car crash last year.
captain_spalding said:
Ian said:
Saigon April 75
The man flying the Air America helicopter in the Saigon photo was Robert Caron.
He died in a car crash last year.
Actually, it was this year.
An urgent meeting of the National Security Committee of Cabinet will be held later this morning, as the Australian government assesses its plans for an evacuation mission out of Afghanistan.
Aren’t they a little tardy?
Just like those pandemic preparedness claims we guess.
A US intelligence assessment earlier in the week had said Kabul could be encircled in 30 days and could fall to the Taliban within 90 days, but the insurgents captured most of Afghanistan’s major cities in less than a week and entered the capital on Sunday.
roughbarked said:
transition said:
clearly have many good fighters, most of the good fighters, committed fighters, it’s not the first time they persisted in a persistent way, a relentless relentlessness
If you are going to be shot if you don’t fight then you are left with little alternative.
still it would be, well if you were on their turf, or interfering in their turf, it’d be a mistake to underestimate them, though a favorable mistake for them
ABC News:
‘Afghanistan evacuation mission being urgently assessed as capital falls to Taliban
By political reporter Matthew Doran
The Australian government is urgently assessing its plans for an evacuation mission out of Afghanistan, as the capital Kabul rapidly falls to the Taliban.’
You can count on Liberal governments to do the right thing.
Long after it’s too late.
Afghanistan Defence Minister Bismillah Mohammadi, in a tweet apparently referring to President Ashraf Ghani and his associates, lamented that they “tied our hands behind our backs and sold the homeland, damn the rich man and his gang”.
Senior Afghan leader and Head of High Council for National Reconciliation Abdullah Abdullah, in a video clip, said that Ghani left Afghanistan.
He said that he left the people of Afghanistan in mess and misery and he will be judged in futurity.
Afghan defence minister says President Ghani sold his homeland
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Afghanistan Defence Minister Bismillah Mohammadi (Wikimedia commons photo)
Afghanistan Defence Minister Bismillah Mohammadi, in a tweet apparently referring to President Ashraf Ghani and his associates, lamented that they “tied our hands behind our backs and sold the homeland, damn the rich man and his gang”.
Senior Afghan leader and Head of High Council for National Reconciliation Abdullah Abdullah, in a video clip, said that Ghani left Afghanistan.
He said that he left the people of Afghanistan in mess and misery and he will be judged in futurity.
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VOA reported Ghani, along with his Vice President and other senior officials, flew out of the country on Sunday, setting the stage for Taliban insurgents to regain power in Afghanistan 20 years after a US-led military invasion ousted them.
There was no comment from Ghani or his embattled administration in Kabul. In a recorded message on Saturday, Ghani had told the nation he was consulting with both national and international players on the situation which he called an “imposed war”.
Vice President Amrullah Saleh, who is said to have accompanied Ghani and the others who left, in a tweet vowed not to bow to the Taliban, but he did not respond in the message to reports of him leaving the country.
On Sunday morning, a Taliban delegation engaged prominent Afghan jihadi leaders, politicians and elders in negotiations that culminated in Ghani stepping down from office, sources directly aware of the developments told VOA.
The Taliban maintained in the talks that they would not engage Ghani in any transfer of power, saying he was not “a legitimate” President.
It is not known who was involved in the negotiations, but Abdullah Abdullah, who has overseen US-brokered, intra-Afghan peace talks with the Taliban, was among the negotiators of Sunday’s deal.
Under the deal reportedly reached, a delegation of Afghan leaders, including Abdullah, would travel to Qatar, where “the transfer of power to the Taliban” will formally take place, sources told VOA.
Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid, in a tweet, confirmed that Sunday evening, the group’s fighters had entered Kabul to guard key installations to “prevent chaos and looting after Afghan security forces abandoned those posts”.
Ghani along with National Security Adviser Hamdullah Muhib and head of the administrative office of President, Fazel Mahmood Fazli left Afghanistan for Tajikistan.
Some lawmakers have also fled to Islamabad. Earlier, Speaker of Afghan Parliament Mir Rahman Rahmani, Younus Qanuni, Muhammad Muhaqeq, Karim Khalili, Ahmad Wali Masoud, and Ahmad Zia Masoud fled to Islamabad, Afghan media reported.
The Taliban, in an official statement, said that the fighters were directed to enter Kabul city so that they prevent potential looting and chaos in the city, as per media reports.
https://www.thestatesman.com/world/afghan-defence-minister-says-president-ghani-sold-homeland-1502995018.html
It will be very interesting to see, in the fullness of time, the timeline of events in these last 3 days.
I’m sorry for the terrible forumming. I shall deposit 2 dollars to PWM’s boat kickstarter.
Afghanistan Defence Minister Bismillah Mohammadi, in a tweet apparently referring to President Ashraf Ghani and his associates, lamented that they “tied our hands behind our backs and sold the homeland, damn the rich man and his gang”.Senior Afghan leader and Head of High Council for National Reconciliation Abdullah Abdullah, in a video clip, said that Ghani left Afghanistan.
He said that he left the people of Afghanistan in mess and misery and he will be judged in futurity.
Afghan defence minister says President Ghani sold his homeland
Afghanistan Defence Minister Bismillah Mohammadi, in a tweet apparently referring to President Ashraf Ghani and his associates, lamented that they “tied our hands behind our backs and sold the homeland, damn the rich man and his gang”.
Senior Afghan leader and Head of High Council for National Reconciliation Abdullah Abdullah, in a video clip, said that Ghani left Afghanistan.
He said that he left the people of Afghanistan in mess and misery and he will be judged in futurity.
VOA reported Ghani, along with his Vice President and other senior officials, flew out of the country on Sunday, setting the stage for Taliban insurgents to regain power in Afghanistan 20 years after a US-led military invasion ousted them.
There was no comment from Ghani or his embattled administration in Kabul. In a recorded message on Saturday, Ghani had told the nation he was consulting with both national and international players on the situation which he called an “imposed war”.
Vice President Amrullah Saleh, who is said to have accompanied Ghani and the others who left, in a tweet vowed not to bow to the Taliban, but he did not respond in the message to reports of him leaving the country.
On Sunday morning, a Taliban delegation engaged prominent Afghan jihadi leaders, politicians and elders in negotiations that culminated in Ghani stepping down from office, sources directly aware of the developments told VOA.
The Taliban maintained in the talks that they would not engage Ghani in any transfer of power, saying he was not “a legitimate” President.
It is not known who was involved in the negotiations, but Abdullah Abdullah, who has overseen US-brokered, intra-Afghan peace talks with the Taliban, was among the negotiators of Sunday’s deal.
Under the deal reportedly reached, a delegation of Afghan leaders, including Abdullah, would travel to Qatar, where “the transfer of power to the Taliban” will formally take place, sources told VOA.
Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid, in a tweet, confirmed that Sunday evening, the group’s fighters had entered Kabul to guard key installations to “prevent chaos and looting after Afghan security forces abandoned those posts”.
Ghani along with National Security Adviser Hamdullah Muhib and head of the administrative office of President, Fazel Mahmood Fazli left Afghanistan for Tajikistan.
Some lawmakers have also fled to Islamabad. Earlier, Speaker of Afghan Parliament Mir Rahman Rahmani, Younus Qanuni, Muhammad Muhaqeq, Karim Khalili, Ahmad Wali Masoud, and Ahmad Zia Masoud fled to Islamabad, Afghan media reported.
The Taliban, in an official statement, said that the fighters were directed to enter Kabul city so that they prevent potential looting and chaos in the city, as per media reports.
It will be very interesting to see, in the fullness of time, the timeline of events in these last 3 days.
Taliban ‘will respect rights of women’ in Afghanistan, spokesperson says
A Taliban spokesman has told the BBC that the group “will respect rights of women” when it takes control of Afghanistan, as they enter Kabul with the previous regime reportedly getting prepared to concede power.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
This is despite reports on Saturday (14 August) that women were sent home from their jobs in fallen provinces, and told to leave universities in some instances.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/taliban-spokesman-tells-bbc-that-women-and-girls-will-still-have-access-to-education-v623d2878
dv said:
Taliban ‘will respect rights of women’ in Afghanistan, spokesperson saysA Taliban spokesman has told the BBC that the group “will respect rights of women” when it takes control of Afghanistan, as they enter Kabul with the previous regime reportedly getting prepared to concede power.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
This is despite reports on Saturday (14 August) that women were sent home from their jobs in fallen provinces, and told to leave universities in some instances.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/taliban-spokesman-tells-bbc-that-women-and-girls-will-still-have-access-to-education-v623d2878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban ‘will respect rights of women’ in Afghanistan, spokesperson saysA Taliban spokesman has told the BBC that the group “will respect rights of women” when it takes control of Afghanistan, as they enter Kabul with the previous regime reportedly getting prepared to concede power.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
This is despite reports on Saturday (14 August) that women were sent home from their jobs in fallen provinces, and told to leave universities in some instances.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/taliban-spokesman-tells-bbc-that-women-and-girls-will-still-have-access-to-education-v623d2878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Very nice dialect work by Heston there.
Afghanistan’s military collapse: Illicit deals and mass desertions
By Susannah George
Today at 7:05 p.m. EDT
KABUL — The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that allowed Taliban fighters to walk into the Afghan capital Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in American aid began with a series of deals brokered in rural villages between the militant group and some of the Afghan government’s lowest-ranking officials.
The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were in fact offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a U.S. official.
Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers.
Within a little more than a week, Taliban fighters overran more than a dozen provincial capitals and entered Kabul with no resistance, triggering the departure of Afghanistan’s president and the collapse of his government. Afghan security forces in the districts ringing Kabul and in the city itself simply melted away. By nightfall, police checkpoints were left abandoned and the militants roamed the streets freely.
The pace of the military collapse has stunned many American officials and other foreign observers, forcing the U.S. government to dramatically accelerate efforts to remove personnel from its embassy in Kabul.
The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial battlefield support and grew receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.
“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the U.S. commitment to a full withdrawal as an “assurance” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on the condition of anonymity because he, like others in this report, was not authorized to disclose information to the press.
The Doha agreement, designed to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, bringing into stark relief the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid in six months or more.
“They saw that document as the end,” the officer said, referring to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. “The day the deal was signed we saw the change. Everyone was just looking out for himself. It was like left us to fail.”
The negotiated surrenders to the Taliban slowly gained pace in the months following the Doha deal, according to a U.S. official and an Afghan officer. Then, after President Biden announced in April that U.S. forces would withdraw from Afghanistan this summer without conditions, the capitulations began to snowball.
Afghan security forces fly over the city of Kabul in April 2021. (Lorenzo Tugnoli for The Washington Post)
As the militants expanded their control, government-held districts increasingly fell without a fight. Kunduz, the first key city overrun by the militants, was captured a week ago. Days of negotiations mediated by tribal elders resulted in a surrender deal that handed over the last government-controlled base to the Taliban.
Soon after, negotiations in the western province of Herat yielded the resignation of the governor, top Interior Ministry and intelligence officials and hundreds of troops. The deal was concluded in a single night.
“I was so ashamed,” said a Kabul-based Interior Ministry officer, referring to the surrender of senior ministry official Abdul Rahman Rahman in Herat. “I’m just a small person, I’m not that big. If he does that, what should I do?”
Over the past month, the southern province of Helmand also witnessed a mass surrender. And as Taliban fighters closed in on the southeastern province of Ghazni, its governor fled under Taliban protection only to be arrested by the Afghan government on his way back to Kabul.
Taliban enters Kabul, leaving Afghan government on brink of collapse
The Afghan military’s fight against the Taliban involved several capable and motivated elite units. But they were often dispatched to provide backup for less-well-trained army and police units that repeatedly folded under Taliban pressure.
An Afghan special forces officer stationed in Kandahar who had been assigned to protect a critical border crossing recalled being ordered by a commander to surrender. “We want to fight! If we surrender, the Taliban will kill us,” the special forces officer said.
“Don’t fire a single shot,” the unit’s commander told them as the Taliban swarmed the area, the officer later recounted. The border police surrendered immediately, leaving the special forces unit on its own. A second officer confirmed his colleague’s recollection of the events.
Unwilling to surrender or fight outmatched, the members of the unit put down their weapons, changed into civilian clothing and fled their post.
“I feel ashamed of what I’ve done,” said the first officer. But, he said, if he hadn’t fled, “I would have been sold to the Taliban by my own government.”
When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they hadn’t been getting their salaries. Several Afghan police officers on the front lines in Kandahar before the city fell said they hadn’t been paid in six to nine months. Taliban payoffs became ever more enticing.
“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught for corruption. It brought out the traitors from within our military,” said one Afghan police officer.
Several officers with the Kandahar police force said corruption was more to blame for the collapse than incompetence. “Honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new,” said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in Kandahar’s police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture this month, the toll on the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been steadily retreating for more than three months. He had grown hunched and his attire more ragged. In an interview, he said the repeated retreats had bruised his pride — but it was going without pay that made him feel desperate.
“Last time I saw you, the Taliban was offering $150 for anyone from the government to surrender and join them,” he told a reporter as the interview drew to a close. “Do you know, what is the price now?”
He didn’t laugh, and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/15/afghanistan-military-collapse-taliban/?
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban ‘will respect rights of women’ in Afghanistan, spokesperson saysA Taliban spokesman has told the BBC that the group “will respect rights of women” when it takes control of Afghanistan, as they enter Kabul with the previous regime reportedly getting prepared to concede power.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
This is despite reports on Saturday (14 August) that women were sent home from their jobs in fallen provinces, and told to leave universities in some instances.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/taliban-spokesman-tells-bbc-that-women-and-girls-will-still-have-access-to-education-v623d2878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Very nice dialect work by Heston there.
so is this all a consequence of the dialectic
Witty Rejoinder said:
Afghanistan’s military collapse: Illicit deals and mass desertions
When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they hadn’t been getting their salaries. Several Afghan police officers on the front lines in Kandahar before the city fell said they hadn’t been paid in six to nine months. Taliban payoffs became ever more enticing.
“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught for corruption. It brought out the traitors from within our military,” said one Afghan police officer.
Several officers with the Kandahar police force said corruption was more to blame for the collapse than incompetence. “Honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new,” said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in Kandahar’s police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture this month, the toll on the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been steadily retreating for more than three months. He had grown hunched and his attire more ragged. In an interview, he said the repeated retreats had bruised his pride — but it was going without pay that made him feel desperate.
“Last time I saw you, the Taliban was offering $150 for anyone from the government to surrender and join them,” he told a reporter as the interview drew to a close. “Do you know, what is the price now?”
He didn’t laugh, and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/15/afghanistan-military-collapse-taliban/
so the Taliban are buying land, their contemporaries across the table are taking payment, capitalism is doing good, greed is good, so where’s the problem
dv said:
Afghanistan Defence Minister Bismillah Mohammadi, in a tweet apparently referring to President Ashraf Ghani and his associates, lamented that they “tied our hands behind our backs and sold the homeland, damn the rich man and his gang”.
No, we will not let him go.
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban ‘will respect rights of women’ in Afghanistan, spokesperson saysA Taliban spokesman has told the BBC that the group “will respect rights of women” when it takes control of Afghanistan, as they enter Kabul with the previous regime reportedly getting prepared to concede power.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
This is despite reports on Saturday (14 August) that women were sent home from their jobs in fallen provinces, and told to leave universities in some instances.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/taliban-spokesman-tells-bbc-that-women-and-girls-will-still-have-access-to-education-v623d2878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Very nice dialect work by Heston there.
And a minor role by The Master
SCIENCE said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Afghanistan’s military collapse: Illicit deals and mass desertions
When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they hadn’t been getting their salaries. Several Afghan police officers on the front lines in Kandahar before the city fell said they hadn’t been paid in six to nine months. Taliban payoffs became ever more enticing.
“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught for corruption. It brought out the traitors from within our military,” said one Afghan police officer.
Several officers with the Kandahar police force said corruption was more to blame for the collapse than incompetence. “Honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new,” said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in Kandahar’s police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture this month, the toll on the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been steadily retreating for more than three months. He had grown hunched and his attire more ragged. In an interview, he said the repeated retreats had bruised his pride — but it was going without pay that made him feel desperate.
“Last time I saw you, the Taliban was offering $150 for anyone from the government to surrender and join them,” he told a reporter as the interview drew to a close. “Do you know, what is the price now?”
He didn’t laugh, and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/15/afghanistan-military-collapse-taliban/
so the Taliban are buying land, their contemporaries across the table are taking payment, capitalism is doing good, greed is good, so where’s the problem
I’m pretty sure that widespread corruption is not limited to “capitalism”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved
—
that’s a sad read.
I’m guessing we will have refugees in time for the Libs to be throwing some babies overboard before the election..
dv said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Very nice dialect work by Heston there.
And a minor role by The Master
Roger Caesar Marius Bernard de Delgado Torres Castillo Roberto was born in Whitechapel in the East End, he was a true cockney.
Roger Caesar Marius Bernard de Delgado Torres Castillo Roberto died in a car crash in Turkey aged 55.
Roger Caesar Marius Bernard de Delgado Torres Castillo Roberto first marriage didn’t last long but Roger Caesar Marius Bernard de Delgado Torres Castillo Roberto second marriage was more successful.
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban ‘will respect rights of women’ in Afghanistan, spokesperson saysA Taliban spokesman has told the BBC that the group “will respect rights of women” when it takes control of Afghanistan, as they enter Kabul with the previous regime reportedly getting prepared to concede power.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
This is despite reports on Saturday (14 August) that women were sent home from their jobs in fallen provinces, and told to leave universities in some instances.
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/taliban-spokesman-tells-bbc-that-women-and-girls-will-still-have-access-to-education-v623d2878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Very nice dialect work by Heston there.
ABC News:
‘This Taliban directive is a stark warning of what lies ahead for Afghan women and girls
The Conversation
/
By Vrinda Narain
Emboldened by success in Afghanistan, the Taliban is now ordering religious leaders to provide them with lists of girls over the age of 15 to enter into “marriages” with Taliban fighters. ‘
Well, that promise collapsed rather quickly.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRQLQqqoZ8
Very nice dialect work by Heston there.
ABC News:
‘This Taliban directive is a stark warning of what lies ahead for Afghan women and girls
The Conversation
/By Vrinda Narain
Emboldened by success in Afghanistan, the Taliban is now ordering religious leaders to provide them with lists of girls over the age of 15 to enter into “marriages” with Taliban fighters. ‘Well, that promise collapsed rather quickly.
A spokesperson for the Taliban, Suhail Shaheen, told BBC News: “We will respect rights of women…our policy is that women will have access to education and work, to wear the hijab.”
—————————————————————————-
That’s what they are doing – access to education, work, wear hijab. It’d be some education to be someone’s wife at 15. And plenty hard work, and they will have to wear the hijab.
They also said, somewhere, the rights they will give women are those outlined in their scripture. I don’t know exactly what that entails but I’d hazard a guess that it is quite far removed from what modern western society would consider as reasonable rights…
Whatever else is said about them, those Taliban guys absorbed their training.
In photos of them in the Presidential offices, they have their rifles ready, but they’re all spot-on for trigger discipline, with their fingers outside the trigger guards.
(CNN)The debacle of the US defeat and chaotic retreat in Afghanistan is a political disaster for Joe Biden, whose failure to orchestrate an urgent and orderly exit will further rock a presidency plagued by crises and stain his legacy.
But a stunning Taliban blitzkrieg followed more than 20 years of US and allied policy failures, misunderstandings of Afghan politics and culture, public war fatigue and the culpability and corruption of the failed state’s leaders.
And while Biden’s political and geopolitical rivals rush to exploit his mistakes, the true magnitude of the crisis can only be judged in the human tragedy of a people again subject to Taliban persecution. And a failure to fulfill the now apparently near-impossible tasks of evacuating all the Afghan translators, workers and fixers on whom the US relied and who now face Taliban retribution would besmirch America’s conscience and global reputation.
“It is a stain on our nation’s integrity and honor that even just a few months ago, we were not meeting our obligation to the men and women, our Afghan allies who served alongside us,” Jake Wood, a former US Marine and Afghan war veteran, told CNN’s Pamela Brown on Sunday. “We owe them the special immigrant visas. We owe them safety, every bit as much as we owe safety to our embassy workers in Kabul.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html
captain_spalding said:
Whatever else is said about them, those Taliban guys absorbed their training.In photos of them in the Presidential offices, they have their rifles ready, but they’re all spot-on for trigger discipline, with their fingers outside the trigger guards.
Good to see all those billions (trillions?) spent by the US went to some use…
furious said:
captain_spalding said:
Whatever else is said about them, those Taliban guys absorbed their training.In photos of them in the Presidential offices, they have their rifles ready, but they’re all spot-on for trigger discipline, with their fingers outside the trigger guards.
Good to see all those billions (trillions?) spent by the US went to some use…
They must be proud
dv said:
“It is a stain on our nation’s integrity and honor that even just a few months ago, we were not meeting our obligation to the men and women, our Afghan allies who served alongside us,” Jake Wood, a former US Marine and Afghan war veteran, told CNN’s Pamela Brown on Sunday. “We owe them the special immigrant visas. We owe them safety, every bit as much as we owe safety to our embassy workers in Kabul.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/afghanistan-joe-biden-donald-trump-kabul-politics/index.html
Vietnam, Nicaragua, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan…
America is now likely to retreat further into its shell, reluctant to confront anyone about anything for fear of picking another unwinnable fight.
At least, unwinnable with the strategies and thinking they’ve been employing until now.
We can hope that they think long and hard, and that, while keeping their long-standing ideas about winning the hearts and minds of the population, they realise that part of the fight against insurgents and revolutionaries is about winning the hearts and minds of the enemy.
It is interesting the distinction made between the US forces in Afghanistan and other overseas deployments considering the seemingly dubius necessity of stationing tens of thousands of troops in Japan or Germany for nigh on 70 years versus much smaller deployments in a training role in Afghanistan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments
The world really is a depressing thing right now. Those poor people.
Witty Rejoinder said:
It is interesting the distinction made between the US forces in Afghanistan and other overseas deployments considering the seemingly dubius necessity of stationing tens of thousands of troops in Japan or Germany for nigh on 70 years versus much smaller deployments in a training role in Afghanistan:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments
maybe it’s easier and costs less to stay in places where they aren’t trying to kill you all the time just thinking
captain_spalding said:
The Taliban were always there. It’s why Western military forces were there for nearly twenty years.The Taliban did what insurgent/guerilla forces always do when faced with superior military forces: withdraw, avoid direct confrontation, build up your forces, and wait until the time is right.
They were in no hurry, they weren’t planning on going anywhere else. In this type of war, the other side (Western nations) will eventually get tired of the cost in time, money, and lives for no foreseeable conclusion, and give up.
The Taliban had plenty of support. Pakistan was a great help to them, Iran was not unhelpful, and Russia and China were always happy to quietly lend a hand (anything that makes things difficult for the Americans is OK by them). And there was always money and recruits coming in from the Middle East – quite a number of sponsors in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.
The West had no proper counterinsurgency strategy. They had no way to isolate the Taliban from their sources of support. They couldn’t or wouldn’t deploy forces to both take and occupy territory. They couldn’t cut the Taliban off from the population. They couldn’t entirely destroy the Taliban.
All the Taliban had to do was survive, and to wait.
That’s a pretty good summary. Also need to mention to rampant corruption. Someone else said a lot of money had been spent there?
Well, yes, but there is not a lot in the way of infrastructure that has been built. Wonder where all that reconstruction money went?
Mind you, the Taliban have got themselves a pretty schmick regional air force.
Refugees are defined and protected in international law. The 1951 Refugee Convention is a key legal document and defines a refugee as:
“someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.”
—-
Are women and girls a social group?
dv said:
Refugees are defined and protected in international law. The 1951 Refugee Convention is a key legal document and defines a refugee as:“someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.”
—-
Are women and girls a social group?
They’d be covered by religion, non entertaining pun intended.
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
Refugees are defined and protected in international law. The 1951 Refugee Convention is a key legal document and defines a refugee as:“someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.”
—-
Are women and girls a social group?
They’d be covered by religion, non entertaining pun intended.
I think in a place where there is such a vast distinction between the standing of the sexes ( or is it gender?) you could class women and girls as a social group…
furious said:
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
Refugees are defined and protected in international law. The 1951 Refugee Convention is a key legal document and defines a refugee as:“someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.”
—-
Are women and girls a social group?
They’d be covered by religion, non entertaining pun intended.
I think in a place where there is such a vast distinction between the standing of the sexes ( or is it gender?) you could class women and girls as a social group…
perhaps but let’s read it
unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of religion
which we thought was the claim among those Taliban tricksters but we are prepared to be corrected as to whether it really is a religious thing for them
Will this effect the Afghan Cricket teams 2021 schedule?
yeah like how Australians support parties and policies that specifically make themselves worse off
One of the big problems here is that the USA. and the west in general, don’t set up their armed forces for this kind of job. Armies and Air Forces are equipped and trained for killing people and breaking stuff. They need to know who are the goodies, and who are the baddies. This sort of insurgency warfare where you are trying to win people over by building up a country doesn’t seem to work. Military forces just don’t seem to be the right tool for the job.
party_pants said:
One of the big problems here is that the USA. and the west in general, don’t set up their armed forces for this kind of job. Armies and Air Forces are equipped and trained for killing people and breaking stuff. They need to know who are the goodies, and who are the baddies. This sort of insurgency warfare where you are trying to win people over by building up a country doesn’t seem to work. Military forces just don’t seem to be the right tool for the job.
The CIA doesn’t seem overly effective either.
poikilotherm said:
party_pants said:
One of the big problems here is that the USA. and the west in general, don’t set up their armed forces for this kind of job. Armies and Air Forces are equipped and trained for killing people and breaking stuff. They need to know who are the goodies, and who are the baddies. This sort of insurgency warfare where you are trying to win people over by building up a country doesn’t seem to work. Military forces just don’t seem to be the right tool for the job.
The CIA doesn’t seem overly effective either.
There needs to be training across many different fields political, diplomatic, military, police, emergency services, electrical and civil engineers, its a long list, they needed way more police and military personal, the rebuilding its was never organised properly from the start, other countries were interfering and undermining local efforts, the Taliban were pushed away, the UN should have full responsibility for rebuilding their government, tribal alpha males are generally destructive and violent, we will begin to see heads being cut off, zombies driving around with machines guns firing into the air etc,
1972: 3 women on the streets of Kabul, Afghanistan
Picture taken in 1962 at the Faculty of Medicine in Kabul of two Afghan medicine students listening to their professor (at right) as they examine a plaster cast showing a part of a human body.
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/afghanistan-1950s-1960s/
poikilotherm said:
party_pants said:
One of the big problems here is that the USA. and the west in general, don’t set up their armed forces for this kind of job. Armies and Air Forces are equipped and trained for killing people and breaking stuff. They need to know who are the goodies, and who are the baddies. This sort of insurgency warfare where you are trying to win people over by building up a country doesn’t seem to work. Military forces just don’t seem to be the right tool for the job.
The CIA doesn’t seem overly effective either.
They do a great job of training and arming militants wishing to disrupt the Soviets.
Dark Orange said:
poikilotherm said:
party_pants said:
One of the big problems here is that the USA. and the west in general, don’t set up their armed forces for this kind of job. Armies and Air Forces are equipped and trained for killing people and breaking stuff. They need to know who are the goodies, and who are the baddies. This sort of insurgency warfare where you are trying to win people over by building up a country doesn’t seem to work. Military forces just don’t seem to be the right tool for the job.
The CIA doesn’t seem overly effective either.
They do a great job of training and arming militants wishing to disrupt the Soviets.
Iran Contra was the pièce de résistance.
Rebuilding a country: from disaster relief to sustainable development
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jan/29/humanitarian-crisis-aid-development-nation-building
How To Successfully Rebuild Nations
https://www.forbes.com/2010/08/31/foreign-aid-infrastructure-international-relations-opinions-contributors-jamsheed-choksy.html
Witty Rejoinder said:
Dark Orange said:
poikilotherm said:The CIA doesn’t seem overly effective either.
They do a great job of training and arming militants wishing to disrupt the Soviets.
Iran Contra was the pièce de résistance.
The Taliban, not so much.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Rebuilding a country: from disaster relief to sustainable development
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jan/29/humanitarian-crisis-aid-development-nation-buildingHow To Successfully Rebuild Nations
https://www.forbes.com/2010/08/31/foreign-aid-infrastructure-international-relations-opinions-contributors-jamsheed-choksy.html
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
Tau.Neutrino said:
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
Dark Orange said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
NZ has a c130 ready to go, but there is no open airport.
sarahs mum said:
Dark Orange said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
NZ has a c130 ready to go, but there is no open airport.
——-
That’s something.
Dark Orange said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
They have been taking hundreds of Afganies out lately because they did see it coming, however it’s pretty pointless pointing theses things out in this place, I’d have no time left to do anything else.
Peak Warming Man said:
Dark Orange said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
They have been taking hundreds of Afganies out lately because they did see it coming, however it’s pretty pointless pointing theses things out in this place, I’d have no time left to do anything else.
sarahs mum said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Dark Orange said:The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
They have been taking hundreds of Afganies out lately because they did see it coming, however it’s pretty pointless pointing theses things out in this place, I’d have no time left to do anything else.
pfft.
You beat me to it.
Peak Warming Man said:
Dark Orange said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Australian military rescue mission to Afghanistan to proceed ‘when situation allows’
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/australian-military-rescue-afghanistan-proceed-when-possible/100381278
The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
They have been taking hundreds of Afganies out lately because they did see it coming, however it’s pretty pointless pointing theses things out in this place, I’d have no time left to do anything else.
So this stuff is all sorted then?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-19/veteran-burn-medals-protest-australia-afghan-translators-taliban/100305398
Dark Orange said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Dark Orange said:The situation has been possible for months. Good old Morrison government, wait for things to go to shit before shrugging and saying “No way we could have seen that coming”.
They have been taking hundreds of Afganies out lately because they did see it coming, however it’s pretty pointless pointing theses things out in this place, I’d have no time left to do anything else.
So this stuff is all sorted then?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-19/veteran-burn-medals-protest-australia-afghan-translators-taliban/100305398
They didn’t know or didn’t want to know that the government had been taking out people from Afghanistan for some time but for obvious reasons they didn’t want to advertise it.
No way a government in a box can do the job, especially a shoebox government, disappointing for a lot of people to see good work go down the drain.
Tau.Neutrino said:
of all the things
we mean people change their business fixtures in response to political changes all the time
wait so first they complain about medals being stripped for war crimes, then they burn them in protest at giving a country the chance to self determine, can they make up their minds
SCIENCE said:
wait so first they complain about medals being stripped for war crimes, then they burn them in protest at giving a country the chance to self determine, can they make up their minds
not sure they and them are the same people there, you’ve closed the gap to make your point anyway
you should spend some time with the victorious over there, you can sit down of the evening watch four corners together, ponder the joys of everyone being in the movie business these days
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.
The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
transition said:
SCIENCE said:
wait so first they complain about medals being stripped for war crimes, then they burn them in protest at giving a country the chance to self determine, can they make up their minds
not sure they and them are the same people there, you’ve closed the gap to make your point anyway
you should spend some time with the victorious over there, you can sit down of the evening watch four corners together, ponder the joys of everyone being in the movie business these days
honestly we find it a total bunch of shit, apparently they can precision strike an Iranian freedom fighter and shut down their spinners with computer COVID-19, without outright war on the ground in Iran, and yet despite digging out the engineer they end up fucking around in some neighbour of CHINA for 20 years we mean right sure cool story man
SCIENCE said:
wait so first they complain about medals being stripped for war crimes, then they burn them in protest at giving a country the chance to self determine, can they make up their minds
For all the Afghan governments faults, it was democratically elected. It was a self determined government.
dv said:
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.
The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
but Syria is doing all right for itself now right
dv said:
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
Ford lost after Saigon but there was also lots of other shit going on unlike now…oh, wait a sec.
I think Biden might survive as the infrastructure bill, if it gets through, will be a huge boost to the economy; and his handling of the pandemic hasn’t been terrible unlike his predecessor. It’s not actually his fault that there’s a lot of idiot governors and people who don’t want to get vaccinated.
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
wait so first they complain about medals being stripped for war crimes, then they burn them in protest at giving a country the chance to self determine, can they make up their minds
For all the Afghan governments faults, it was democratically elected. It was a self determined government.
mmm we think Myanmar is screaming out for another Great Western Intervention just about now
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.
The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
but Syria is doing all right for itself now right
Lol
…
I’m still going to say Iraq has basically turned the corner.
sibeen said:
dv said:
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
Ford lost after Saigon but there was also lots of other shit going on unlike now…oh, wait a sec.
I think Biden might survive as the infrastructure bill, if it gets through, will be a huge boost to the economy; and his handling of the pandemic hasn’t been terrible unlike his predecessor. It’s not actually his fault that there’s a lot of idiot governors and people who don’t want to get vaccinated.
I mean he’s fkn old anyway so if he were to step aside in 2022 to give Harris a run up no one would blame him
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.
The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
but Syria is doing all right for itself now right
Lol
…
I’m still going to say Iraq has basically turned the corner.
Serious question, so then why are all the distortion media banging on about another Vietnam, couldn’t they just state it plain that it’s just another Syria ¿
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/afghanistan-taliban-deaths-kabul-airport-evacuation/100381874
“Thousands of Afghans rushed into Kabul’s main airport, some so desperate to escape the Taliban that they held onto a military jet as it took off and were seen apparently plunging to their deaths.”
Dark Orange said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-16/afghanistan-taliban-deaths-kabul-airport-evacuation/100381874“Thousands of Afghans rushed into Kabul’s main airport, some so desperate to escape the Taliban that they held onto a military jet as it took off and were seen apparently plunging to their deaths.”
dire indeed.
dv said:
sibeen said:
dv said:
It does very much parallel the situation in Syria when DJT anounced a quick withdrawals timeline. It’s like… yeah, it’s understandable you want to get out, but do it right.The difference is that CNN and MSNBC are savaging Biden, using the terms “botched”, “bungled”, “disaster”.. quite rightly, whereas Fox and OAN gave uncritical cover to the Don. So …. maybe this will be the end of the Biden presidency.
Ford lost after Saigon but there was also lots of other shit going on unlike now…oh, wait a sec.
I think Biden might survive as the infrastructure bill, if it gets through, will be a huge boost to the economy; and his handling of the pandemic hasn’t been terrible unlike his predecessor. It’s not actually his fault that there’s a lot of idiot governors and people who don’t want to get vaccinated.
I mean he’s fkn old anyway so if he were to step aside in 2022 to give Harris a run up no one would blame him
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/afghanistan-has-fallen-to-the-taliban-how-will-americans-judge-bidens-decision-to-withdraw/
sibeen said:
dv said:
sibeen said:Ford lost after Saigon but there was also lots of other shit going on unlike now…oh, wait a sec.
I think Biden might survive as the infrastructure bill, if it gets through, will be a huge boost to the economy; and his handling of the pandemic hasn’t been terrible unlike his predecessor. It’s not actually his fault that there’s a lot of idiot governors and people who don’t want to get vaccinated.
I mean he’s fkn old anyway so if he were to step aside in 2022 to give Harris a run up no one would blame him
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/afghanistan-has-fallen-to-the-taliban-how-will-americans-judge-bidens-decision-to-withdraw/
I thought that was the plan anyway?
I’m a bit more informed about Afghanistan now, having listened to Tony Jones last night.
I’m not sure how much Biden should be blamed for current events. Seems preparations have been going on from well before he took office.
The Rev Dodgson said:
sibeen said:
dv said:I mean he’s fkn old anyway so if he were to step aside in 2022 to give Harris a run up no one would blame him
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/afghanistan-has-fallen-to-the-taliban-how-will-americans-judge-bidens-decision-to-withdraw/
I thought that was the plan anyway?
I’m a bit more informed about Afghanistan now, having listened to Tony Jones last night.
I’m not sure how much Biden should be blamed for current events. Seems preparations have been going on from well before he took office.
people could try saying it, the taliban won the war
transition said:
people could try saying it, the taliban won the war
The Taliban won the wait.
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
sibeen said:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/afghanistan-has-fallen-to-the-taliban-how-will-americans-judge-bidens-decision-to-withdraw/
I thought that was the plan anyway?
I’m a bit more informed about Afghanistan now, having listened to Tony Jones last night.
I’m not sure how much Biden should be blamed for current events. Seems preparations have been going on from well before he took office.
people could try saying it, the taliban won the war
Since when was it a war?
Got to wonder how the US intelligence apparatus continues to give erroneous assessments. They’ve got an enormous network of agents, thousands of analysts whose job is to understand the real situation.
roughbarked said:
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I thought that was the plan anyway?
I’m a bit more informed about Afghanistan now, having listened to Tony Jones last night.
I’m not sure how much Biden should be blamed for current events. Seems preparations have been going on from well before he took office.
people could try saying it, the taliban won the war
Since when was it a war?
1838
dv said:
roughbarked said:
transition said:people could try saying it, the taliban won the war
Since when was it a war?
1838
:) Maybe even earlier?
https://god.dailydot.com/gop-page-afghanistan-withdrawal/
Do you suppose some of the high tech gear the US has given to Afghanistan has systems in it that allows the US to disable it? Obvious, not small arms but planes and drones and such…
dv said:
Got to wonder how the US intelligence apparatus continues to give erroneous assessments. They’ve got an enormous network of agents, thousands of analysts whose job is to understand the real situation.
Sources are of varying reliability. Some you might believe all of the time, some you might hardly ever believe, and most you can believe some of the time.
That’s where analyst come in. Sorting the wheat from the chaff, to try o get a picture of what’s really going on. Almost always, there’s some degree of error, but good analysts can produce reports that have a high probability of being right.
After that, it’s interpretation and application. And that’s where all sorts of agendas come into the picture.
Political agendas are the biggest and baddest of these beasts. All the good intelligence in the worlds is wasted if the government decides that the reports don’t suit their agenda, and decide to so something less than optimal according to the information.
Then there’s inter-departmental, inter-agency, inter-service, commercial/business, and personal agendas that can influence the use, non-use, or misuse of the information.
A hammer is a useful tool. You can use it to build something, or to destroy something, according to your lights. Intelligence and information are similar tools.
furious said:
Do you suppose some of the high tech gear the US has given to Afghanistan has systems in it that allows the US to disable it? Obvious, not small arms but planes and drones and such…
Yeah I was wondering about their airforce.
Afghan security forces’ wholesale collapse was years in the making
By Craig Whitlock
Yesterday at 7:00 a.m. EDT
In the summer of 2011, Army Lt. Gen. William Caldwell IV made a round of public appearances to boast that he had finally solved a problem that had kept U.S. troops bogged down in Afghanistan for a decade. Under his watch, he asserted, U.S. military advisers and trainers had transformed the ragtag Afghan army and police into a professional fighting force that could defend the country and keep the Taliban at bay.
“We’ve made tremendous strides, incredible progress,” Caldwell, the head of the U.S. and NATO training command in Afghanistan, told the Council on Foreign Relations in June 2011. “They’re probably the best-trained, the best-equipped and the best-led of any forces we’ve developed yet inside of Afghanistan. They only continue to get better with time.”
Three months later, in a news briefing at the Pentagon, Caldwell said the Afghan soldiers and police previously had been in terrible shape: poorly led, uninspired and more than 90 percent of them illiterate. But he said the Obama administration’s decision to spend $6 billion a year to train and equip the Afghan security forces had produced a remarkable turnaround. He predicted that the Taliban-led insurgency would subside and that the Afghans would take over responsibility for securing their country by the end of 2014, enabling U.S. combat troops to leave.
“It really does give you a lot of hope for the future of what this country may have ahead of itself,” he said.
In fact, according to documents obtained for the forthcoming Washington Post book“The Afghanistan Papers: A Secret History of the War,” U.S. military officials privately harbored fundamental doubts for the duration of the war that the Afghan security forces could ever become competent or shed their dependency on U.S. money and firepower. “Thinking we could build the military that fast and that well was insane,” an unnamed former U.S. official told government interviewers in 2016.
Those fears, rarely expressed in public, were ultimately borne out by the sudden collapse this month of the Afghan security forces, whose wholesale and unconditional surrender to the Taliban will go down as perhaps the worst debacle in the history of proxy warfare.
The capitulation was sped up by a series of secret deals that the Taliban brokered with many Afghan government officials. In recent days and weeks, Taliban leaders used a combination of cash, threats and promises of leniency to persuade government forces to lay down their arms.
Although U.S. intelligence officials had recently forecast the possible demise of the Afghan government over the next three to six months, the Biden administration was caught unprepared by the velocity of the Taliban takeover. Afghan forces “proved incapable of defending the country. And that did happen more rapidly than we anticipated,” Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Sunday on the ABC News program “This Week.”
Over two decades, the U.S. government invested more than $85 billion to train and equip the Afghans and pay their salaries. Today, all that’s left is arsenals of weapons, ammunition and supplies that have fallen into the hands of the enemy.
Senior U.S. officials said the Pentagon fell victim to the conceit that it could build from scratch an enormous Afghan army and police force with 350,000 personnel that was modeled on the centralized command structures and complex bureaucracy of the Defense Department. Though it was obvious from the beginning that the Afghans were struggling to make the U.S.-designed system work, the Pentagon kept throwing money at the problem and assigning new generals to find a solution.
“We kept changing guys who were in charge of training the Afghan forces, and every time a new guy came in, he changed the way that they were being trained,” Robert Gates, who served as defense secretary during the Bush and Obama administrations, said in an oral-history interview with scholars at the University of Virginia. “The one thing they all had in common was they were all trying to train a Western army instead of figuring out the strengths of the Afghans as a fighting people and then building on that.”
In government interviews, U.S. military trainers who worked directly with recruits said the Afghans suffered from other insoluble problems, including a lack of motivation and a corrupt chain of command that preyed upon its own soldiers and police.
Maj. Greg Escobar, a U.S. Army infantry officer, spent 2011 trying to straighten out a dysfunctional Afghan army unit in Paktika province near the border with Pakistan. The first Afghan battalion commander whom Escobar mentored lost his job after he was charged with raping one of his male soldiers. The commander’s replacement, in turn, was killed by his own men.
Escobar said he came to realize that the whole exercise was futile because the U.S. military was pushing too fast and the Afghans were not responding to what was, in the end, a foreign experiment. “Nothing we do is going to help,” he recalled in an Army oral-history interview. “Until the Afghan government can positively affect the people there, we’re wasting our time.”
Other Army officers who trained the Afghans recounted scenes of mayhem that boded poorly for how they would perform on the battlefield. Maj. Mark Glaspell, an Army engineer with the 101st Airborne Division who served as a mentor to Afghan forces from 2010 to 2011, said even simple exercises went haywire.
Glaspell recalled trying to teach an Afghan platoon in the eastern city of Gardez how to exit a CH-47 Chinook, a heavy-lift helicopter used to transport troops and supplies. They lacked an actual Chinook to practice on, so he lined up rows of folding chairs instead and instructed the Afghans how to safely disembark.
“We were working on that and it was going pretty good and all of a sudden this Afghan soldier walks up and he and one of the guys in the class started to get into an argument,” Glaspell said in an Army oral-history interview. A third Afghan soldier then picked up a folding chair and pounded the first guy over the head, he said.
“Well, then it was a brawl; it was on,” Glaspell added. He let the Afghans duke it out until they got tired. “My interpreter actually looked at me, shook his head and said, ‘This is why we’ll never be successful,’ and he walked away.”
Jack Kem, a retired Army officer who served as Gen. Caldwell’s deputy from 2009 to 2011, said the training command struggled to overcome a host of challenges. Recruiting was hard enough, but was compounded by startling rates of desertion and attrition. And trying to maintain an ethnic balance in the force among Afghanistan’s fractious tribes was another “enormous problem,” he said.
But perhaps the biggest hardship was having to teach virtually every recruit how to read. Kem estimated that only 2 to 5 percent of Afghan recruits could read at a third-grade level despite efforts by the United States to enroll millions of Afghan children in school over the previous decade.
“The literacy was just insurmountable,” he said in an Army oral-history interview. Some Afghans also had to learn their colors, or had to be taught how to count. “I mean, you’d ask an Afghan soldier how many brothers and sisters they had and they couldn’t tell you it was four. They could tell you their names, but they couldn’t go ‘one, two, three, four.’ ”
Making everything harder was the Obama administration’s decision to rapidly expand the size of the Afghan security forces from 200,000 soldiers and police officers to 350,000. With recruits at a premium, Afghans were rushed through boot camp, even if they couldn’t shoot or perform other basic tasks.
In Washington, some skeptics warned Obama administration officials that they were sacrificing quality for quantity. But leaders at the Pentagon dismissed the concerns and insisted they could have both.
“There was a big debate that said, ‘Either you can have a small Afghan army and police that is trained to a high quality or you can have a lot of them but they won’t meet the quality standards. They’ll just be poorly equipped and poorly trained,’ ” Brig. Gen. John Ferrari, who also served under Caldwell at the training command, said in an Army oral-history interview.
Caldwell, who retired from the Army in 2013, did not respond to a request to comment for this article.
As the years passed, it became apparent that the strategy was failing. Yet U.S. military commanders kept insisting in public that everything was going according to plan.
In November 2012, Marine Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr. told lawmakers that he had grown “optimistic” about the war because the Afghan army and police had improved so much. “When I look at the Afghan national security forces and where they were in 2008, when I first observed them, and where they are today in 2012, it’s a dramatic improvement.”
In September 2013, Mark A. Milley, then an Army lieutenant general and deputy commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, gave reporters another upbeat assessment. “I am much more optimistic about the outcome here, as long as the Afghan security forces continue to do what they’ve been doing,” he said.
“If they continue to do that next year and the year after and so on, then I think things will turn out okay in Afghanistan,” he added. Today, Milley is a four-star general and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and serves as the chief military adviser to President Biden.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/afghan-security-forces-capabilities/2021/08/15/052a45e2-fdc7-11eb-a664-4f6de3e17ff0_story.html?
Witty Rejoinder said:
As the years passed, it became apparent that the strategy was failing. Yet U.S. military commanders kept insisting in public that everything was going according to plan.
Mr Biden said he would not repeat “the mistakes of the past” by fighting in a conflict that was no longer in the interests of the United States. “If anything, the developments of the past week reinforced that ending US military involvement in Afghanistan now was the right decision.”
Mr Biden said he had to follow through with an agreement made by his predecessor, Donald Trump, under which US forces would be out of the 20-year war by May of this year. Mr Biden, who spent the weekend at Camp David, said he had no choice under the agreement but to further draw-down troops, or else re-engage in a military conflict during the Taliban fighting season.
“After 20 years, I’ve learned the hard way that there was never a good time to withdraw US forces.” Mr Biden said he would rather take the criticism over the fallout in Afghanistan than leave the decision to another president.
“As we carry out the departure, we made it clear to the Taliban, if they attack our personnel or disrupt our operation, the US presence will be swift and the response will be swift and forceful,” Mr Biden said. “We will defend our people with devastating force if necessary. “Our current military mission will be short in time, limited in scope, and focused in its objectives: Get our people and our allies as safely, as quickly, as possible, and once we have completed this mission, we’ll conclude our military withdrawal.
—
oh so they can
Peak Warming Man said:
furious said:
Do you suppose some of the high tech gear the US has given to Afghanistan has systems in it that allows the US to disable it? Obvious, not small arms but planes and drones and such…
Yeah I was wondering about their airforce.
The Russians used to sell/donate fighter and attack aircraft to various Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries in what they (the Russians) referred to as ‘monkey’ versions.
Essentially, the same planes as the Russians had, but without all the bells and whistles, just with basic equipment (e.g. no look-down-shoot-down radar and very basic other electronics, engines that were derated a bit, things like that).
Made the customers happy, but if the Russians ever had the need to, they could fly the same kind of aircraft against them with a margin of advantage. Also reflected the Russian attitude that ‘those people’ couldn’t handle the advanced stuff.
The Americans may have learnt from the example of Iran the risks of supplying full-version aircraft to client states. They sold 78 F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s, along with a shirtload of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
Iran has gone to great lengths to keep the Tomcats flying (possibly 15-20 still airworthy) because their AWG-9 radar and the Phoenix missiles are still quite a combination to be reckoned with. Some years back, there was tales that they rolled non-flying F-14s up to the shores of the Straits of Hormuz to use as radar/missile platforms to threaten shipping in the Straits.
It’s possible that the US now supplies ‘monkey’ versions to some countries, or that they build in remote ‘switch off’ capabilities to ‘brick’ some of the electronics. Also, they just don’t sell some aircraft at all – they’re not selling F-22 Raptors to anyone, not the Brits, not us, not the Japanese or Canadians, no-one at all.
captain_spalding said:
what they (the Russians) referred to as ‘monkey’ versions.
The Americans may have learnt
does make one wonder why this is not one of the first ideas to consider when supplying weapons to foreign actors
captain_spalding said:
Peak Warming Man said:
furious said:
Do you suppose some of the high tech gear the US has given to Afghanistan has systems in it that allows the US to disable it? Obvious, not small arms but planes and drones and such…
Yeah I was wondering about their airforce.
The Russians used to sell/donate fighter and attack aircraft to various Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries in what they (the Russians) referred to as ‘monkey’ versions.
Essentially, the same planes as the Russians had, but without all the bells and whistles, just with basic equipment (e.g. no look-down-shoot-down radar and very basic other electronics, engines that were derated a bit, things like that).
Made the customers happy, but if the Russians ever had the need to, they could fly the same kind of aircraft against them with a margin of advantage. Also reflected the Russian attitude that ‘those people’ couldn’t handle the advanced stuff.
The Americans may have learnt from the example of Iran the risks of supplying full-version aircraft to client states. They sold 78 F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s, along with a shirtload of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
Iran has gone to great lengths to keep the Tomcats flying (possibly 15-20 still airworthy) because their AWG-9 radar and the Phoenix missiles are still quite a combination to be reckoned with. Some years back, there was tales that they rolled non-flying F-14s up to the shores of the Straits of Hormuz to use as radar/missile platforms to threaten shipping in the Straits.
It’s possible that the US now supplies ‘monkey’ versions to some countries, or that they build in remote ‘switch off’ capabilities to ‘brick’ some of the electronics. Also, they just don’t sell some aircraft at all – they’re not selling F-22 Raptors to anyone, not the Brits, not us, not the Japanese or Canadians, no-one at all.
I doubt the Afghans could keep any aircraft in the air long even if they were able to snag a few. Having a very well trained avionics ground crew is a must and I don’t think many would have the expertise.
sibeen said:
captain_spalding said:
Peak Warming Man said:Yeah I was wondering about their airforce.
The Russians used to sell/donate fighter and attack aircraft to various Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries in what they (the Russians) referred to as ‘monkey’ versions.
Essentially, the same planes as the Russians had, but without all the bells and whistles, just with basic equipment (e.g. no look-down-shoot-down radar and very basic other electronics, engines that were derated a bit, things like that).
Made the customers happy, but if the Russians ever had the need to, they could fly the same kind of aircraft against them with a margin of advantage. Also reflected the Russian attitude that ‘those people’ couldn’t handle the advanced stuff.
The Americans may have learnt from the example of Iran the risks of supplying full-version aircraft to client states. They sold 78 F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s, along with a shirtload of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
Iran has gone to great lengths to keep the Tomcats flying (possibly 15-20 still airworthy) because their AWG-9 radar and the Phoenix missiles are still quite a combination to be reckoned with. Some years back, there was tales that they rolled non-flying F-14s up to the shores of the Straits of Hormuz to use as radar/missile platforms to threaten shipping in the Straits.
It’s possible that the US now supplies ‘monkey’ versions to some countries, or that they build in remote ‘switch off’ capabilities to ‘brick’ some of the electronics. Also, they just don’t sell some aircraft at all – they’re not selling F-22 Raptors to anyone, not the Brits, not us, not the Japanese or Canadians, no-one at all.
I doubt the Afghans could keep any aircraft in the air long even if they were able to snag a few. Having a very well trained avionics ground crew is a must and I don’t think many would have the expertise.
Illiterate Taliban villagers and 21st century aircraft expertise don’t make a very credible pairing.
The natives had an exceptionally hard time truly understanding what was happening. Christian missionaries would come in, for example, and put up schools, and the schools would quickly fill with natives, who were diligent and did everything asked of them. The schools were very successful…but after over a decade of faithful study of scripture and sitting in rows in a disciplined manner, there were still no planes landing to dispense cargo to the native tribes. The natives finally realized that “going to school” was not a road that would get them cargo, and they all walked away from the schools overnight, completely mystifying the missionaries who now stood in abandoned classrooms, teaching nobody (or perhaps I should say “teaching as many as they were when the rooms were full”).
supposedly
https://world.edu/college-cargo-cult/
provided merely for critical review and does not constitute endorsement of linked page, site, or content
Bubblecar said:
sibeen said:
captain_spalding said:The Russians used to sell/donate fighter and attack aircraft to various Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries in what they (the Russians) referred to as ‘monkey’ versions.
Essentially, the same planes as the Russians had, but without all the bells and whistles, just with basic equipment (e.g. no look-down-shoot-down radar and very basic other electronics, engines that were derated a bit, things like that).
Made the customers happy, but if the Russians ever had the need to, they could fly the same kind of aircraft against them with a margin of advantage. Also reflected the Russian attitude that ‘those people’ couldn’t handle the advanced stuff.
The Americans may have learnt from the example of Iran the risks of supplying full-version aircraft to client states. They sold 78 F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s, along with a shirtload of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
Iran has gone to great lengths to keep the Tomcats flying (possibly 15-20 still airworthy) because their AWG-9 radar and the Phoenix missiles are still quite a combination to be reckoned with. Some years back, there was tales that they rolled non-flying F-14s up to the shores of the Straits of Hormuz to use as radar/missile platforms to threaten shipping in the Straits.
It’s possible that the US now supplies ‘monkey’ versions to some countries, or that they build in remote ‘switch off’ capabilities to ‘brick’ some of the electronics. Also, they just don’t sell some aircraft at all – they’re not selling F-22 Raptors to anyone, not the Brits, not us, not the Japanese or Canadians, no-one at all.
I doubt the Afghans could keep any aircraft in the air long even if they were able to snag a few. Having a very well trained avionics ground crew is a must and I don’t think many would have the expertise.
Illiterate Taliban villagers and 21st century aircraft expertise don’t make a very credible pairing.
Bubblecar said:
sibeen said:
captain_spalding said:The Russians used to sell/donate fighter and attack aircraft to various Middle Eastern, African, and Asian countries in what they (the Russians) referred to as ‘monkey’ versions.
Essentially, the same planes as the Russians had, but without all the bells and whistles, just with basic equipment (e.g. no look-down-shoot-down radar and very basic other electronics, engines that were derated a bit, things like that).
Made the customers happy, but if the Russians ever had the need to, they could fly the same kind of aircraft against them with a margin of advantage. Also reflected the Russian attitude that ‘those people’ couldn’t handle the advanced stuff.
The Americans may have learnt from the example of Iran the risks of supplying full-version aircraft to client states. They sold 78 F-14 Tomcats to Iran in the 70s, along with a shirtload of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
Iran has gone to great lengths to keep the Tomcats flying (possibly 15-20 still airworthy) because their AWG-9 radar and the Phoenix missiles are still quite a combination to be reckoned with. Some years back, there was tales that they rolled non-flying F-14s up to the shores of the Straits of Hormuz to use as radar/missile platforms to threaten shipping in the Straits.
It’s possible that the US now supplies ‘monkey’ versions to some countries, or that they build in remote ‘switch off’ capabilities to ‘brick’ some of the electronics. Also, they just don’t sell some aircraft at all – they’re not selling F-22 Raptors to anyone, not the Brits, not us, not the Japanese or Canadians, no-one at all.
I doubt the Afghans could keep any aircraft in the air long even if they were able to snag a few. Having a very well trained avionics ground crew is a must and I don’t think many would have the expertise.
Illiterate Taliban villagers and 21st century aircraft expertise don’t make a very credible pairing.
If you offer enough money (and the Taliban can get money), you’ll find people with the expertise who are willing to work for you, and who’ll sell you the fuel.
Let’s not forget, Russia, Iran and China are literally just next door. And anything that annoys the Americans is OK with them.
Meanwhile, Afghanistan has fewer than 3 doctors per 10,000 population, compared with about 32.7 per 10,000 in Oz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_physicians
So now that the Taliban is in charge, do they have a website? What is their COVID lockdown policy?
Woodie said:
So now that the Taliban is in charge, do they have a website? What is their COVID lockdown policy?
Their policy is to hide in caves until it is gone…
Hamid Karzai a month ago…
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202107/1227657.shtml
Former president Karzai slams ‘US legacy in Afghanistan of total disgrace and disaster,’ hails China’s role in bringing stability
The US and its allies in NATO came to Afghanistan in the name of fighting terrorism and extremism and to bring stability to Afghanistan, but are leaving nearly 20 years later after they failed at both and with an attempt to shift the burden to the Afghan people, Afghanistan’s former president Hamid Karzai said.
In an exclusive interview with the Global Times, Karzai said the US and its allies cannot be absolved of their responsibilities in Afghanistan. US President Joe Biden said on June 25 that Afghans “are going to have to decide their future” as Afghan President Ashraf Ghani visited the White House. The former president agreed that it is the responsibility of the Afghan people to provide security for their country and to unite in the name of peace, but “it is also the responsibility of those countries, especially the United States, who came into Afghanistan in the name of bringing peace and stability.”
US President Joe Biden declared in April that he would withdraw the remaining US troops from the “forever war” in Afghanistan, saying the US has long ago accomplished its main mission of denying terrorists a haven in the country. But the former Afghan president said “it’s clearly turning out that the United States has failed.” “Not only did stability not come, conflict did not end, and new terrorist groups emerged,” Karzai noted.
Karzai told the AP on June 20 that the US’ legacy is a war-ravaged nation in “total disgrace and disaster.” “We recognize as Afghans all our failures, but what about the bigger forces and powers who came here for exactly that purpose? Where are they leaving us now?” he asked and answered: “In total disgrace and disaster.”
He told the Global Times that the “failure by the US and its allies is now their responsibility to explain to the Afghan people,” and the Afghan people “would like the US to leave Afghanistan responsibly.”
Since the US announced its complete withdrawal plan from war-torn Afghanistan by September, Afghanistan has witnessed a surge in violence amid the US troops’ pullout from the region. Karzai said to eradicate terrorist attacks on Afghanistan’s soil, what is needed is the understanding and cooperation of neighbors and major global powers. He said China can play a very significant role, especially “trying for the betterment of relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan and for working toward a relationship between the two countries” that is based on “civilized interaction.”
Karzai spoke highly of China’s role as “a very constructive player for peace and stability of Afghanistan.” He said the Afghan people really want China to continue to contribute to Afghanistan’s peace by creating a platform of talks on its own initiative in Beijing and also for the joint exercise of Troika of China, Russia and Pakistan.
dv said:
Hamid Karzai a month ago…
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202107/1227657.shtml
Former president Karzai slams ‘US legacy in Afghanistan of total disgrace and disaster,’ hails China’s role in bringing stability
The US and its allies in NATO came to Afghanistan in the name of fighting terrorism and extremism and to bring stability to Afghanistan, but are leaving nearly 20 years later after they failed at both and with an attempt to shift the burden to the Afghan people, Afghanistan’s former president Hamid Karzai said.In an exclusive interview with the Global Times, Karzai said the US and its allies cannot be absolved of their responsibilities in Afghanistan. US President Joe Biden said on June 25 that Afghans “are going to have to decide their future” as Afghan President Ashraf Ghani visited the White House. The former president agreed that it is the responsibility of the Afghan people to provide security for their country and to unite in the name of peace, but “it is also the responsibility of those countries, especially the United States, who came into Afghanistan in the name of bringing peace and stability.”
US President Joe Biden declared in April that he would withdraw the remaining US troops from the “forever war” in Afghanistan, saying the US has long ago accomplished its main mission of denying terrorists a haven in the country. But the former Afghan president said “it’s clearly turning out that the United States has failed.” “Not only did stability not come, conflict did not end, and new terrorist groups emerged,” Karzai noted.
Karzai told the AP on June 20 that the US’ legacy is a war-ravaged nation in “total disgrace and disaster.” “We recognize as Afghans all our failures, but what about the bigger forces and powers who came here for exactly that purpose? Where are they leaving us now?” he asked and answered: “In total disgrace and disaster.”
He told the Global Times that the “failure by the US and its allies is now their responsibility to explain to the Afghan people,” and the Afghan people “would like the US to leave Afghanistan responsibly.”
Since the US announced its complete withdrawal plan from war-torn Afghanistan by September, Afghanistan has witnessed a surge in violence amid the US troops’ pullout from the region. Karzai said to eradicate terrorist attacks on Afghanistan’s soil, what is needed is the understanding and cooperation of neighbors and major global powers. He said China can play a very significant role, especially “trying for the betterment of relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan and for working toward a relationship between the two countries” that is based on “civilized interaction.”
Karzai spoke highly of China’s role as “a very constructive player for peace and stability of Afghanistan.” He said the Afghan people really want China to continue to contribute to Afghanistan’s peace by creating a platform of talks on its own initiative in Beijing and also for the joint exercise of Troika of China, Russia and Pakistan.
ROFL Global Times.
sibeen said:
dv said:Hamid Karzai a month ago…
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202107/1227657.shtml
Former president Karzai slams ‘US legacy in Afghanistan of total disgrace and disaster,’ hails China’s role in bringing stability
The US and its allies in NATO came to Afghanistan in the name of fighting terrorism and extremism and to bring stability to Afghanistan, but are leaving nearly 20 years later after they failed at both and with an attempt to shift the burden to the Afghan people, Afghanistan’s former president Hamid Karzai said.In an exclusive interview with the Global Times, Karzai said the US and its allies cannot be absolved of their responsibilities in Afghanistan. US President Joe Biden said on June 25 that Afghans “are going to have to decide their future” as Afghan President Ashraf Ghani visited the White House. The former president agreed that it is the responsibility of the Afghan people to provide security for their country and to unite in the name of peace, but “it is also the responsibility of those countries, especially the United States, who came into Afghanistan in the name of bringing peace and stability.”
US President Joe Biden declared in April that he would withdraw the remaining US troops from the “forever war” in Afghanistan, saying the US has long ago accomplished its main mission of denying terrorists a haven in the country. But the former Afghan president said “it’s clearly turning out that the United States has failed.” “Not only did stability not come, conflict did not end, and new terrorist groups emerged,” Karzai noted.
Karzai told the AP on June 20 that the US’ legacy is a war-ravaged nation in “total disgrace and disaster.” “We recognize as Afghans all our failures, but what about the bigger forces and powers who came here for exactly that purpose? Where are they leaving us now?” he asked and answered: “In total disgrace and disaster.”
He told the Global Times that the “failure by the US and its allies is now their responsibility to explain to the Afghan people,” and the Afghan people “would like the US to leave Afghanistan responsibly.”
Since the US announced its complete withdrawal plan from war-torn Afghanistan by September, Afghanistan has witnessed a surge in violence amid the US troops’ pullout from the region. Karzai said to eradicate terrorist attacks on Afghanistan’s soil, what is needed is the understanding and cooperation of neighbors and major global powers. He said China can play a very significant role, especially “trying for the betterment of relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan and for working toward a relationship between the two countries” that is based on “civilized interaction.”
Karzai spoke highly of China’s role as “a very constructive player for peace and stability of Afghanistan.” He said the Afghan people really want China to continue to contribute to Afghanistan’s peace by creating a platform of talks on its own initiative in Beijing and also for the joint exercise of Troika of China, Russia and Pakistan.
ROFL Global Times.
Some scholars say it is China’s Fox News, I’m told.
dv said:
……..and also for the joint exercise of Troika of China, Russia and Pakistan.
Oh dear. I though that Troika only went as far as Paris.
furious said:
Woodie said:
So now that the Taliban is in charge, do they have a website? What is their COVID lockdown policy?
Their policy is to hide in caves until it is gone…
you mean Démocratie Américain is a lethal and contagious virus
captain_spalding said:
SCIENCE said:
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
I mean I don’t know shit about the military, but NATO managed to sustain aerial defence of Kurdistan for a decade after the first Gulf War and perhaps something like that would be possible here. Some defensible zone that includes Kabul, at least part of the border with Pakistan and part of the Northern border.
Something similar.
But, you’re only delaying the inevitable.
The idea that air power can not only take ground, but hold it, has been near and dear to the American strategic mind for many years. This is despite repeated lessons that it can indeed take ground, but cannot hold it indefinitely.
Without ground forces, enemy forces will find ways to manoeuvre when the air power is not there, and secure areas will always be subject to gradual infiltration. If you’re prepared to take your time about it, your ‘fifth column’ forces can be built up to the point where they’ll be able to undermine what ground defences there are when you decide to press the issue, and there’s no point in bombing the places that air power is supposed to be protecting.
What it could do is help maintain, for a while at least, an escape corridor to a neighbouring country for those who choose not to wait for the return of the Dark Ages with the Taliban. If the US can persuade a country to accept them.
Wakhan Corridor we said
CHINA have good education systems out there we said
Even if the Corridor was not already under Taliban control (which it is), and i, a good Muslim Afghani, was of a mind to escape it via the Corridor, i would indeed only end up being the beneficiary of China’s generous re-training programmes which have been already provided to so many of my faith.
https://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/?main=https%3A//tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/posts/1777689/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghanistan-china-us-relations-taliban/100382960
“The Afghan Taliban said on multiple occasions that it hopes to grow sound relations with China, looks forward to China’s participation in Afghanistan’s reconstruction and development, and will never allow any force to use the Afghan territory to engage in acts detrimental to China,” spokeswoman Hua Chunying told a press briefing.
China shares a rugged 76-kilometre border with Afghanistan, and Beijing has long feared Afghanistan could become a staging point for minority Uyghur separatists in the sensitive border region of Xinjiang. But a top-level Taliban delegation met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Tianjin last month, promising that Afghanistan would not be used as a base for militants.
In exchange, China offered economic support and investment for Afghanistan’s reconstruction. “China respects the Afghan people’s right to decide on their own future independently. “We are ready to continue to develop good-neighbourliness and friendly cooperation with Afghanistan and play a constructive role in Afghanistan’s peace and reconstruction.”
China’s embassy in Kabul remains operational, Ms Hua said, although Beijing began evacuating Chinese citizens from the country months ago amid the deteriorating security situation. Ms Hua called on the Taliban to “ensure a smooth transition” of power and keep its promises to negotiate the establishment of an “open and inclusive Islamic government” and ensure the safety of Afghans and foreign citizens.
China has repeatedly criticised what it sees as the US’ hasty withdrawal from Afghanistan as a failure of leadership. Yesterday, Foreign Minister Wang Yi told US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that the hasty pullout of US troops from Afghanistan had a “serious negative impact,” but pledged to work with Washington to promote stability in the country.
Yesterday, Mr Wang also criticised the US for removing the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) — a Uyghur extremist group founded in western China — from its list of terrorist groups, saying it showed US double standards on counter-terrorism. The ETIM has long been seen as a terrorist organisation by Beijing, but the US government maintains it no longer exists as a formal organisation and is instead a broad label China uses to oppress a variety of Muslim ethnic groups, including Uyghurs.
For Beijing, a stable and cooperative administration in Kabul would pave the way for an expansion of its Belt and Road Initiative into Afghanistan and through the Central Asian republics, analysts say. The Taliban meanwhile may consider China a crucial source of investment and economic support, either directly or via Pakistan – the insurgents’ chief regional patron and a close Beijing ally.
The C-17, using the call sign Reach 871, was not intending to take on such a large load, but panicked Afghans who had been cleared to evacuate pulled themselves onto the C-17’s half-open ramp, one defense official said.
Instead of trying to force those refugees off the aircraft, “the crew made the decision to go,” a defense official told Defense One. “Approximately 640 Afghan civilians disembarked the aircraft when it arrived at its destination,” the defense official said.
Word of the flight spread across late Sunday in the United States when audio from the crew estimating they were carrying 800 passengers was posted online. A defense official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the true number was about 640 people.
is the skynews banner on youtube right? It says that the US is sending troops back to Afghanistan.
sarahs mum said:
is the skynews banner on youtube right? It says that the US is sending troops back to Afghanistan.
No mention on the internets.
Maybe they’re sending some back to help deal with the evacuation.
sarahs mum said:
is the skynews banner on youtube right? It says that the US is sending troops back to Afghanistan.
They were yesterday or this morning.
buffy said:
sarahs mum said:
is the skynews banner on youtube right? It says that the US is sending troops back to Afghanistan.They were yesterday or this morning.
But I can’t find the news item. I don’t think I imagined it.
Bubblecar said:
sarahs mum said:
is the skynews banner on youtube right? It says that the US is sending troops back to Afghanistan.
No mention on the internets.
Maybe they’re sending some back to help deal with the evacuation.
this we think
Bubblecar said:
sarahs mum said:
is the skynews banner on youtube right? It says that the US is sending troops back to Afghanistan.
No mention on the internets.
Maybe they’re sending some back to help deal with the evacuation.
Yep as are the UK and Australia, they will be used to keep the airport open and a corridor to the airport open.
Tree Felling in the Geeveston Forest. Original photograph by J W Beattie #colourisedtasmania
===
I have similar, perhaps bigger stumps, on this property with the holes from the platform in them.
My skewed to the left Facebook is calling for the govt to bring in 20k of afghani refugees.
It’s such a serious number.
If we send the Biloela family back to Qld and open Christmas island…and then send our offshores to NZ and Tasmania…and then fill hotels across the country We probably couldn’t do that. It’s a big number to quarantine and sort.
And we don’t have all our own folk home who want to come home.
sarahs mum said:
My skewed to the left Facebook is calling for the govt to bring in 20k of afghani refugees.It’s such a serious number.
If we send the Biloela family back to Qld and open Christmas island…and then send our offshores to NZ and Tasmania…and then fill hotels across the country We probably couldn’t do that. It’s a big number to quarantine and sort.
And we don’t have all our own folk home who want to come home.
They are going to holed up in Qatar for a while.
dv said:
sarahs mum said:
My skewed to the left Facebook is calling for the govt to bring in 20k of afghani refugees.It’s such a serious number.
If we send the Biloela family back to Qld and open Christmas island…and then send our offshores to NZ and Tasmania…and then fill hotels across the country We probably couldn’t do that. It’s a big number to quarantine and sort.
And we don’t have all our own folk home who want to come home.
They are going to holed up in Qatar for a while.
That’ll be a change for them.
Physicians per 10,000 people:
Afghanistan: 2.7
Qatar: 77.4 (world’s highest)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_physicians
dv said:
sarahs mum said:
My skewed to the left Facebook is calling for the govt to bring in 20k of afghani refugees.It’s such a serious number.
If we send the Biloela family back to Qld and open Christmas island…and then send our offshores to NZ and Tasmania…and then fill hotels across the country We probably couldn’t do that. It’s a big number to quarantine and sort.
And we don’t have all our own folk home who want to come home.
They are going to holed up in Qatar for a while.
She said while many Afghans suffered under the Taliban’s harsh laws, the first Taliban takeover more than 20 years ago was in many ways a welcome relief in the context of the Afghan war at that time. She said she was just seven years old and described a war-torn country full of corruption and crime with warlords who would seize girls as young as 12 from their homes and give them to their soldiers as brides. “Before the Taliban, people were so afraid. Women were not safe, daughters were not safe,” she told the ABC. “At that time we weren’t thinking about our right to vote or our right to work or leave the house unaccompanied – all the people were thinking about was to feel safe inside their own houses and that was what the Taliban offered.” As children, she said they were treated very kindly by the Taliban. Although her own parents were illiterate, she was educated thanks to a local Taliban leader who hired a former female teacher to give lessons to his own teenage daughters as well as local children. “There was no corruption, there was no crime in all of society,” she said. “There was bad, but there was good too and we have to talk about that.”
Afghan researcher Mr Yar said it was like a snowball effect. As they took the district centres, they captured more weapons and vehicles, drew more recruits and strengthened their position. He said as the morale of government forces withered, it became easier to negotiate the surrender of other military commanders. Corruption within the Afghan administration had meant that many soldiers had not been paid for months and they felt as if their own government didn’t have their backs, Mr Yar said. The announcement from the Biden administration that it was up to the Afghan government to defend itself left government troops feeling abandoned and many surrendered en masse to the Taliban, he added.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghan-taliban-evolved-since-20-years-ago/100379358
there you go, seems Taliban are the good guys
SCIENCE said:
- The Taliban are “drastically” different from 20 years ago due to globalisation and the experiences they gained
- They are still very conservative but may be more liberal than last time in a bid to retain power for longer
- The group had promised freedom of speech, media and women’s rights, as well as the protection of minorities would be upheld
She said while many Afghans suffered under the Taliban’s harsh laws, the first Taliban takeover more than 20 years ago was in many ways a welcome relief in the context of the Afghan war at that time. She said she was just seven years old and described a war-torn country full of corruption and crime with warlords who would seize girls as young as 12 from their homes and give them to their soldiers as brides. “Before the Taliban, people were so afraid. Women were not safe, daughters were not safe,” she told the ABC. “At that time we weren’t thinking about our right to vote or our right to work or leave the house unaccompanied – all the people were thinking about was to feel safe inside their own houses and that was what the Taliban offered.” As children, she said they were treated very kindly by the Taliban. Although her own parents were illiterate, she was educated thanks to a local Taliban leader who hired a former female teacher to give lessons to his own teenage daughters as well as local children. “There was no corruption, there was no crime in all of society,” she said. “There was bad, but there was good too and we have to talk about that.”
Afghan researcher Mr Yar said it was like a snowball effect. As they took the district centres, they captured more weapons and vehicles, drew more recruits and strengthened their position. He said as the morale of government forces withered, it became easier to negotiate the surrender of other military commanders. Corruption within the Afghan administration had meant that many soldiers had not been paid for months and they felt as if their own government didn’t have their backs, Mr Yar said. The announcement from the Biden administration that it was up to the Afghan government to defend itself left government troops feeling abandoned and many surrendered en masse to the Taliban, he added.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghan-taliban-evolved-since-20-years-ago/100379358
there you go, seems Taliban are the good guys
The smiling face of brutal Islamic fundamentalism? I think some people are being “drastically” naive.
ABC News:
‘Taliban declare ‘amnesty’ across Afghanistan, urge women to join government, as evacuation flights from Kabul resume
Enamullah Samangani, a member of the Taliban’s cultural commission, says women in a Taliban-ruled Afghanistan have no reason to be afraid, with citizens fearful of a return to their authoritative ways after the collapse of the Afghanistan’s government.’
Gosh, i wonder if we can find out who ran their sexual / harrassment / bullying training, and get them to put some sessions together for Liberal MPs in Canberra?
SCIENCE said:
- The Taliban are “drastically” different from 20 years ago due to globalisation and the experiences they gained
- They are still very conservative but may be more liberal than last time in a bid to retain power for longer
- The group had promised freedom of speech, media and women’s rights, as well as the protection of minorities would be upheld
She said while many Afghans suffered under the Taliban’s harsh laws, the first Taliban takeover more than 20 years ago was in many ways a welcome relief in the context of the Afghan war at that time. She said she was just seven years old and described a war-torn country full of corruption and crime with warlords who would seize girls as young as 12 from their homes and give them to their soldiers as brides. “Before the Taliban, people were so afraid. Women were not safe, daughters were not safe,” she told the ABC. “At that time we weren’t thinking about our right to vote or our right to work or leave the house unaccompanied – all the people were thinking about was to feel safe inside their own houses and that was what the Taliban offered.” As children, she said they were treated very kindly by the Taliban. Although her own parents were illiterate, she was educated thanks to a local Taliban leader who hired a former female teacher to give lessons to his own teenage daughters as well as local children. “There was no corruption, there was no crime in all of society,” she said. “There was bad, but there was good too and we have to talk about that.”
Afghan researcher Mr Yar said it was like a snowball effect. As they took the district centres, they captured more weapons and vehicles, drew more recruits and strengthened their position. He said as the morale of government forces withered, it became easier to negotiate the surrender of other military commanders. Corruption within the Afghan administration had meant that many soldiers had not been paid for months and they felt as if their own government didn’t have their backs, Mr Yar said. The announcement from the Biden administration that it was up to the Afghan government to defend itself left government troops feeling abandoned and many surrendered en masse to the Taliban, he added.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghan-taliban-evolved-since-20-years-ago/100379358
there you go, seems Taliban are the good guys
It might be easy to say the US should have saved their money: just crush Al Qaida and get the fuck out in 2002, leave the Taliban in place.
But look at it this way: for 20 years there was a window in which millions of girls and women got education, got careers, became advocates and so on. Who knows what the future holds but those 20 years were not nothing.
captain_spalding said:
ABC News:‘Taliban declare ‘amnesty’ across Afghanistan, urge women to join government, as evacuation flights from Kabul resume
Enamullah Samangani, a member of the Taliban’s cultural commission, says women in a Taliban-ruled Afghanistan have no reason to be afraid, with citizens fearful of a return to their authoritative ways after the collapse of the Afghanistan’s government.’
Gosh, i wonder if we can find out who ran their sexual / harrassment / bullying training, and get them to put some sessions together for Liberal MPs in Canberra?
ROFL
Yet as Verveer and Henderson pointed out in the Post, the US refugee program requires people to relocate to a third country before their cases can be processed, at their own expense—a nearly impossible proposition for Afghans right now: “Visas are difficult for Afghan women activists to come by in the best of times,” they wrote. “With the twin disasters of COVID-19 and war now raging across Afghanistan, most countries have ceased offering visas altogether.”
more…
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/08/the-us-used-afghan-women-to-justify-its-war-now-its-leaving-them-behind/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/china-conducts-military-drills-off-taiwan/100385616
And the Chinese go dick waving.
Victorian Health Department made several unexpected wastewater detections in regional and residential Victoria, including in Shepparton and Lakes Entrance, and have asked residents to remain on the lookout for symptoms.
The department said they are concerned about unexpected detections of COVID-19 fragments in wastewater in Shepparton on August 10, 11 and 13, and in Lakes Entrance from August 9 to 11.
—
SMH
—
regional Victorians might want to stop running around superspreading for a few days
we apologise again
I have this nagging feeling the US left Afghanistan the same way as they found it. Women in Afghanistan will suffer. A year or less might see the rise of extremists again and more attacks.
Tau.Neutrino said:
I have this nagging feeling the US left Afghanistan the same way as they found it. Women in Afghanistan will suffer. A year or less might see the rise of extremists again and more attacks.
The US knew about what was happening, do they want the whole thing to happen again?
America’s Miscalculations, Afghanistan’s Collapse – The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/podcasts/the-daily/afghanistan-taliban-joe-biden-kabul.html
sarahs mum said:
dv said:
sarahs mum said:
My skewed to the left Facebook is calling for the govt to bring in 20k of afghani refugees.It’s such a serious number.
If we send the Biloela family back to Qld and open Christmas island…and then send our offshores to NZ and Tasmania…and then fill hotels across the country We probably couldn’t do that. It’s a big number to quarantine and sort.
And we don’t have all our own folk home who want to come home.
They are going to holed up in Qatar for a while.
So we would be taking refugees as piecework?
In a few weeks, most Australians will have largely forgotten about what’s happening now in Afghanistan. Give it time so Scomo won’t have to make a decision, one way or the other. They’ll just have to join the non-existent queue like all the others.
Michael V said:
sarahs mum said:
dv said:They are going to holed up in Qatar for a while.
So we would be taking refugees as piecework?In a few weeks, most Australians will have largely forgotten about what’s happening now in Afghanistan. Give it time so Scomo won’t have to make a decision, one way or the other. They’ll just have to join the non-existent queue like all the others.
ok
If he holds off on making a decision, he wont have to make it.
Phew.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
I have this nagging feeling the US left Afghanistan the same way as they found it. Women in Afghanistan will suffer. A year or less might see the rise of extremists again and more attacks.
The US knew about what was happening, do they want the whole thing to happen again?
The Taliban have assured us that women will be treated under Sharia law.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Michael V said:
sarahs mum said:So we would be taking refugees as piecework?
In a few weeks, most Australians will have largely forgotten about what’s happening now in Afghanistan. Give it time so Scomo won’t have to make a decision, one way or the other. They’ll just have to join the non-existent queue like all the others.
ok
If he holds off on making a decision, he wont have to make it.
Phew.
That’s how he does all his decisions.
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
- The Taliban are “drastically” different from 20 years ago due to globalisation and the experiences they gained
- They are still very conservative but may be more liberal than last time in a bid to retain power for longer
- The group had promised freedom of speech, media and women’s rights, as well as the protection of minorities would be upheld
She said while many Afghans suffered under the Taliban’s harsh laws, the first Taliban takeover more than 20 years ago was in many ways a welcome relief in the context of the Afghan war at that time. She said she was just seven years old and described a war-torn country full of corruption and crime with warlords who would seize girls as young as 12 from their homes and give them to their soldiers as brides. “Before the Taliban, people were so afraid. Women were not safe, daughters were not safe,” she told the ABC. “At that time we weren’t thinking about our right to vote or our right to work or leave the house unaccompanied – all the people were thinking about was to feel safe inside their own houses and that was what the Taliban offered.” As children, she said they were treated very kindly by the Taliban. Although her own parents were illiterate, she was educated thanks to a local Taliban leader who hired a former female teacher to give lessons to his own teenage daughters as well as local children. “There was no corruption, there was no crime in all of society,” she said. “There was bad, but there was good too and we have to talk about that.”
Afghan researcher Mr Yar said it was like a snowball effect. As they took the district centres, they captured more weapons and vehicles, drew more recruits and strengthened their position. He said as the morale of government forces withered, it became easier to negotiate the surrender of other military commanders. Corruption within the Afghan administration had meant that many soldiers had not been paid for months and they felt as if their own government didn’t have their backs, Mr Yar said. The announcement from the Biden administration that it was up to the Afghan government to defend itself left government troops feeling abandoned and many surrendered en masse to the Taliban, he added.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghan-taliban-evolved-since-20-years-ago/100379358
there you go, seems Taliban are the good guys
It might be easy to say the US should have saved their money: just crush Al Qaida and get the fuck out in 2002, leave the Taliban in place.
But look at it this way: for 20 years there was a window in which millions of girls and women got education, got careers, became advocates and so on. Who knows what the future holds but those 20 years were not nothing.
Hear hear!
Michael V said:
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
- The Taliban are “drastically” different from 20 years ago due to globalisation and the experiences they gained
- They are still very conservative but may be more liberal than last time in a bid to retain power for longer
- The group had promised freedom of speech, media and women’s rights, as well as the protection of minorities would be upheld
She said while many Afghans suffered under the Taliban’s harsh laws, the first Taliban takeover more than 20 years ago was in many ways a welcome relief in the context of the Afghan war at that time. She said she was just seven years old and described a war-torn country full of corruption and crime with warlords who would seize girls as young as 12 from their homes and give them to their soldiers as brides. “Before the Taliban, people were so afraid. Women were not safe, daughters were not safe,” she told the ABC. “At that time we weren’t thinking about our right to vote or our right to work or leave the house unaccompanied – all the people were thinking about was to feel safe inside their own houses and that was what the Taliban offered.” As children, she said they were treated very kindly by the Taliban. Although her own parents were illiterate, she was educated thanks to a local Taliban leader who hired a former female teacher to give lessons to his own teenage daughters as well as local children. “There was no corruption, there was no crime in all of society,” she said. “There was bad, but there was good too and we have to talk about that.”
Afghan researcher Mr Yar said it was like a snowball effect. As they took the district centres, they captured more weapons and vehicles, drew more recruits and strengthened their position. He said as the morale of government forces withered, it became easier to negotiate the surrender of other military commanders. Corruption within the Afghan administration had meant that many soldiers had not been paid for months and they felt as if their own government didn’t have their backs, Mr Yar said. The announcement from the Biden administration that it was up to the Afghan government to defend itself left government troops feeling abandoned and many surrendered en masse to the Taliban, he added.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghan-taliban-evolved-since-20-years-ago/100379358
there you go, seems Taliban are the good guys
It might be easy to say the US should have saved their money: just crush Al Qaida and get the fuck out in 2002, leave the Taliban in place.
But look at it this way: for 20 years there was a window in which millions of girls and women got education, got careers, became advocates and so on. Who knows what the future holds but those 20 years were not nothing.
Hear hear!
Maybe all the women should leave.
That might give the Taliban something to think about.
Michael V said:
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
- The Taliban are “drastically” different from 20 years ago due to globalisation and the experiences they gained
- They are still very conservative but may be more liberal than last time in a bid to retain power for longer
- The group had promised freedom of speech, media and women’s rights, as well as the protection of minorities would be upheld
She said while many Afghans suffered under the Taliban’s harsh laws, the first Taliban takeover more than 20 years ago was in many ways a welcome relief in the context of the Afghan war at that time. She said she was just seven years old and described a war-torn country full of corruption and crime with warlords who would seize girls as young as 12 from their homes and give them to their soldiers as brides. “Before the Taliban, people were so afraid. Women were not safe, daughters were not safe,” she told the ABC. “At that time we weren’t thinking about our right to vote or our right to work or leave the house unaccompanied – all the people were thinking about was to feel safe inside their own houses and that was what the Taliban offered.” As children, she said they were treated very kindly by the Taliban. Although her own parents were illiterate, she was educated thanks to a local Taliban leader who hired a former female teacher to give lessons to his own teenage daughters as well as local children. “There was no corruption, there was no crime in all of society,” she said. “There was bad, but there was good too and we have to talk about that.”
Afghan researcher Mr Yar said it was like a snowball effect. As they took the district centres, they captured more weapons and vehicles, drew more recruits and strengthened their position. He said as the morale of government forces withered, it became easier to negotiate the surrender of other military commanders. Corruption within the Afghan administration had meant that many soldiers had not been paid for months and they felt as if their own government didn’t have their backs, Mr Yar said. The announcement from the Biden administration that it was up to the Afghan government to defend itself left government troops feeling abandoned and many surrendered en masse to the Taliban, he added.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-17/afghan-taliban-evolved-since-20-years-ago/100379358
there you go, seems Taliban are the good guys
It might be easy to say the US should have saved their money: just crush Al Qaida and get the fuck out in 2002, leave the Taliban in place.
But look at it this way: for 20 years there was a window in which millions of girls and women got education, got careers, became advocates and so on. Who knows what the future holds but those 20 years were not nothing.
Hear hear!
‘s the truth of the matter.
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:
dv said:It might be easy to say the US should have saved their money: just crush Al Qaida and get the fuck out in 2002, leave the Taliban in place.
But look at it this way: for 20 years there was a window in which millions of girls and women got education, got careers, became advocates and so on. Who knows what the future holds but those 20 years were not nothing.
Hear hear!
‘s the truth of the matter.
And that 20 years may have resulted in a more mature, mellowed Taliban. One who understands concessions need to be made to be allowed to run a country.
Dark Orange said:
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:Hear hear!
‘s the truth of the matter.
And that 20 years may have resulted in a more mature, mellowed Taliban. One who understands concessions need to be made to be allowed to run a country.
Appears so but we can only wait and see.
Dark Orange said:
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:Hear hear!
‘s the truth of the matter.
And that 20 years may have resulted in a more mature, mellowed Taliban. One who understands concessions need to be made to be allowed to run a country.
With a few very large grains of hope.
Kabul for the first time since their shock seizure of the city, promising they will not take revenge against those who worked or fought with US forces during their 20-year mission in Afghanistan.
Michael V said:
Dark Orange said:
roughbarked said:‘s the truth of the matter.
And that 20 years may have resulted in a more mature, mellowed Taliban. One who understands concessions need to be made to be allowed to run a country.
With a few very large grains of hope.
I have my doubts though.
Dark Orange said:
Michael V said:
Dark Orange said:And that 20 years may have resulted in a more mature, mellowed Taliban. One who understands concessions need to be made to be allowed to run a country.
With a few very large grains of hope.
I have my doubts though.
Split Enz said that History never repeats. Maybe they were wrong?
roughbarked said:
Dark Orange said:
Michael V said:With a few very large grains of hope.
I have my doubts though.
Split Enz said that History never repeats. Maybe they were wrong?
This newfound flavour of conservative they have is just their way of saying “we have changed” to give the US an excuse to sit back and see what happens. In a year or two they will be back to their old ways, stoning victims of rape and all those who helped the US will have disappeared.
The US Air Force is investigating the circumstances surrounding human remains that were found in the wheel well of one of its C-17s that flew out of Kabul amid the chaos of the Taliban taking over the Afghan capital.
roughbarked said:
The US Air Force is investigating the circumstances surrounding human remains that were found in the wheel well of one of its C-17s that flew out of Kabul amid the chaos of the Taliban taking over the Afghan capital.
could have read quite different
kabulians defend kabul
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/afghanistan-kabul-rescue-mercy-flight-returns-to-australia/100385862
From that piece:
Home Affairs Minister Karen Andrews said Afghan support workers being evacuated from Kabul would face security checks once they arrived in Australia.
“Whilst I understand that these people have supported Australia, we still have an obligation to Australians here to make sure that those that we are giving permanency to in Australia have gone through the appropriate health, medical and security vetting that we need to,” she told Nine Radio.
“So they will come here on a temporary visa, we will continue to look at processing those people here.”
Ms Andrews said she expected the “vast majority” of people would not have any issues with the vetting process.
“When we have done all of the checks that we need to do, they will be eligible and very welcome to stay here in Australia,” she said.
“There may only be a minority and I’m hopeful that there is only a very, very small number that may require significant security checking.”
——————————————————————————
If they were working for Australia, surely they have already been vetted pretty thoroughly already.
buffy said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/afghanistan-kabul-rescue-mercy-flight-returns-to-australia/100385862From that piece:
Home Affairs Minister Karen Andrews said Afghan support workers being evacuated from Kabul would face security checks once they arrived in Australia.
“Whilst I understand that these people have supported Australia, we still have an obligation to Australians here to make sure that those that we are giving permanency to in Australia have gone through the appropriate health, medical and security vetting that we need to,” she told Nine Radio.
“So they will come here on a temporary visa, we will continue to look at processing those people here.”
Ms Andrews said she expected the “vast majority” of people would not have any issues with the vetting process.
“When we have done all of the checks that we need to do, they will be eligible and very welcome to stay here in Australia,” she said.
“There may only be a minority and I’m hopeful that there is only a very, very small number that may require significant security checking.”
——————————————————————————
If they were working for Australia, surely they have already been vetted pretty thoroughly already.
international espionage, spys and double agents are still a thing..
Afghanistan: Female presenters back on Tolo News after Taliban takeoverClose
Female presenters have returned to the screen at a major Afghan news outlet, after briefly being taken off air as the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-58241000
dv said:
Afghanistan: Female presenters back on Tolo News after Taliban takeoverClose
Female presenters have returned to the screen at a major Afghan news outlet, after briefly being taken off air as the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-58241000
Propaganda?
roughbarked said:
dv said:Afghanistan: Female presenters back on Tolo News after Taliban takeoverClose
Female presenters have returned to the screen at a major Afghan news outlet, after briefly being taken off air as the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-58241000
Propaganda?
Yeah but at least they aren’t dead
dv said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:Afghanistan: Female presenters back on Tolo News after Taliban takeoverClose
Female presenters have returned to the screen at a major Afghan news outlet, after briefly being taken off air as the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-58241000
Propaganda?
Yeah but at least they aren’t dead
more precious than weather girls but behind the news reporting?
dv said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:Afghanistan: Female presenters back on Tolo News after Taliban takeoverClose
Female presenters have returned to the screen at a major Afghan news outlet, after briefly being taken off air as the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-58241000
Propaganda?
Yeah but at least they aren’t dead
It could be a hologram.
We’d never know, besides, it worked in Melbourne…
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/council-drives-possums-out-of-park-installs-holographic-possum-projection-20210811-p58hrh.htmlTaliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in Afghanistan
KABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
dv said:
Taliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in AfghanistanKABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
Pot/Kettle.
dv said:
Afghanistan: Female presenters back on Tolo News after Taliban takeoverClose
Female presenters have returned to the screen at a major Afghan news outlet, after briefly being taken off air as the Taliban took over Afghanistan.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-58241000
Immodest woman, with her face uncovered!
That’s a stonin’…
dv said:
Taliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in AfghanistanKABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
I don’t think the Taliban are a sanctioned terrorist group under US law.
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in AfghanistanKABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
I don’t think the Taliban are a sanctioned terrorist group under US law.
Not with that attitude!
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in AfghanistanKABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
I don’t think the Taliban are a sanctioned terrorist group under US law.
I didn’t think they were either.
buffy said:
Peak Warming Man said:I don’t think the Taliban are a sanctioned terrorist group under US law.
I didn’t think they were either.
If Zuckerberg says they’re sanctioned, then they’re sanctioned, got it?
buffy said:
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in AfghanistanKABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
I don’t think the Taliban are a sanctioned terrorist group under US law.
I didn’t think they were either.
a list
https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Taliban slams Facebook for curbing freedom of speech in AfghanistanKABUL: The Taliban criticized Facebook for blocking freedom of speech in Afghanistan as a result of the crackdown by the US firm.
A Taliban spokesman was responding to social media giant Facebook’s measure to block the Taliban and their content from its platforms, including the messaging app, WhatsApp.
On Monday, the social media company confirmed that it designates the Taliban a terrorist group and is under obligation by US law to ban them and their content from its platforms.
“The question should be asked to those people who are claiming to be promoters of freedom of speech who do not allow publication of all information.. the Facebook company, this question should be asked to them,” the Taliban spokesman said while answering a question about the freedom of speech at a news conference streamed online.
On Tuesday, Facebook said it was blocking WhatsApp accounts linked to the Taliban after the group seized control of Afghanistan and sought to use the messaging service to help it govern.
“The Taliban is sanctioned as a terrorist organization under US law and we have banned them from our services under our Dangerous Organization policies,” a Facebook spokesperson told AFP.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/365824-taliban-slams-facebook-for-curbing-freedom-of-speech-in-afghanistan
I don’t think the Taliban are a sanctioned terrorist group under US law.
https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
By George, you’re correct!
Dark Orange said:
Simply playing with new aquisitions.
Dark Orange said:
Perfectly reasonable. Bumper cars cannot just be ignored.
Speedy said:
Dark Orange said:
Perfectly reasonable. Bumper cars cannot just be ignored.
let the games begin.
help!
Peter Dutton is on my tv.
roughbarked said:
help!
Peter Dutton is on my tv.
LOL
roughbarked said:
Dark Orange said:
Simply playing with new aquisitions.
A last run of the cars before the fundamentalism takes hold, and all forms of entertainment other than the occasional football match and regular public executions are banned.
Pretty soon, the word ‘fundamentalism’ will be the only place where you’ll find ‘fun’ in Afghanistan.
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
Dark Orange said:
Simply playing with new aquisitions.
A last run of the cars before the fundamentalism takes hold, and all forms of entertainment other than the occasional football match and regular public executions are banned.
Pretty soon, the word ‘fundamentalism’ will be the only place where you’ll find ‘fun’ in Afghanistan.
in fairness would it have been better if they set them all alight and tortured the new surrenders, surely evidence that upright extremists have loosened up a bit is preferable to the alternative
‘We kept on hearing gunshots’: my chaotic escape from Kabul’s airport
Afghan journalist Ramin Rahman, 27, left on a US military plane at Hamid Karzai international airport
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/18/afghanistan-kabul-airport-escape-journalist
sarahs mum said:
‘We kept on hearing gunshots’: my chaotic escape from Kabul’s airportAfghan journalist Ramin Rahman, 27, left on a US military plane at Hamid Karzai international airport
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/18/afghanistan-kabul-airport-escape-journalist
I’m glad he got out, but it’s such a shitty story. 1 Star :(
The prime minister who first sent Australian forces to what would become their longest war told 7.30 the “mission” was not a failure, because it stopped further 9/11-style attacks on the West being launched from Afghanistan
John Howard said he could “understand the argument” that the war had been a failure because Al Qaeda operatives were still active in the country.
But Mr Howard — who was among the first world leaders to pledge military support for the US-led campaign in 2001 — said he did not “totally” agree.
“There are undoubtedly elements of Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan. And the Taliban … which, on occasions, is completely indistinguishable from Al Qaeda, is a very potent force,” Mr Howard said.
“But the truth is that the great fear of the United States and Australia and the West after September 11 — that there would be other attacks orchestrated out of Afghanistan — that has not materialised.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/john-howard-afghanistan-war-not-a-failure-730-interview/100388644
dv said:
The prime minister who first sent Australian forces to what would become their longest war told 7.30 the “mission” was not a failure, because it stopped further 9/11-style attacks on the West being launched from AfghanistanJohn Howard said he could “understand the argument” that the war had been a failure because Al Qaeda operatives were still active in the country.
But Mr Howard — who was among the first world leaders to pledge military support for the US-led campaign in 2001 — said he did not “totally” agree.
“There are undoubtedly elements of Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan. And the Taliban … which, on occasions, is completely indistinguishable from Al Qaeda, is a very potent force,” Mr Howard said.
“But the truth is that the great fear of the United States and Australia and the West after September 11 — that there would be other attacks orchestrated out of Afghanistan — that has not materialised.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/john-howard-afghanistan-war-not-a-failure-730-interview/100388644
yeah – nah. Not really sure I agree.
Was the mission so narrowly framed as that? I thought we were going to build / rebuild the country into a self-sufficient strong and democratic place broadly aligned with the western strategic bloc.
Or it could be I wasn’t paying attentions at the time, or maybe my memory has faded a bit.
dv said:
“But the truth is that the great fear of the United States and Australia and the West after September 11 — that there would be other attacks orchestrated out of Afghanistan — that has not materialised.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/john-howard-afghanistan-war-not-a-failure-730-interview/100388644
Give them a chance, they’ve only just taken over the country.
honestly we were of the impression it was meant to be get in, murder some engineer, get out
SCIENCE said:
honestly we were of the impression it was meant to be get in, murder some engineer, get out
Did it matter which one or just any engineer?
party_pants said:
dv said:
The prime minister who first sent Australian forces to what would become their longest war told 7.30 the “mission” was not a failure, because it stopped further 9/11-style attacks on the West being launched from AfghanistanJohn Howard said he could “understand the argument” that the war had been a failure because Al Qaeda operatives were still active in the country.
But Mr Howard — who was among the first world leaders to pledge military support for the US-led campaign in 2001 — said he did not “totally” agree.
“There are undoubtedly elements of Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan. And the Taliban … which, on occasions, is completely indistinguishable from Al Qaeda, is a very potent force,” Mr Howard said.
“But the truth is that the great fear of the United States and Australia and the West after September 11 — that there would be other attacks orchestrated out of Afghanistan — that has not materialised.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/john-howard-afghanistan-war-not-a-failure-730-interview/100388644
yeah – nah. Not really sure I agree.
Was the mission so narrowly framed as that? I thought we were going to build / rebuild the country into a self-sufficient strong and democratic place broadly aligned with the western strategic bloc.
Or it could be I wasn’t paying attentions at the time, or maybe my memory has faded a bit.
shrug
Sometimes things aren’t black and white; sometimes the choices are between bad and bad, and you’re going to upset someone no matter what you do.
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
honestly we were of the impression it was meant to be get in, murder some engineer, get out
Did it matter which one or just any engineer?
I’d prefer a specific target, if you don’t mind.
sibeen said:
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
honestly we were of the impression it was meant to be get in, murder some engineer, get out
Did it matter which one or just any engineer?
I’d prefer a specific target, if you don’t mind.
^
probably this one
It’s times like this that I reflect on the wisdom of the Powell Doctrine
___The Powell Doctrine states that a list of questions all have to be answered affirmatively before military action is taken by the United States:
Is a vital national security interest threatened?
Do we have a clear attainable objective?
Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
Is the action supported by the American people?
Do we have genuine broad international support?
If all of these questions are answered in the affirmative, then every resource and tool should be used to achieve decisive force against the enemy, minimizing casualties and ending the conflict quickly by forcing the weaker force to capitulate.
—-
In the immediate aftermath of a massive terrorist attacked planned and directed by a terrorist leadership being harboured in Afghanistan, I think you could honestly answer yes to all of these in regard to an operation to destroy AQ’s capabilities in Afghanistan, and probably mostly “no” to regime change.
sibeen said:
party_pants said:
dv said:
The prime minister who first sent Australian forces to what would become their longest war told 7.30 the “mission” was not a failure, because it stopped further 9/11-style attacks on the West being launched from AfghanistanJohn Howard said he could “understand the argument” that the war had been a failure because Al Qaeda operatives were still active in the country.
But Mr Howard — who was among the first world leaders to pledge military support for the US-led campaign in 2001 — said he did not “totally” agree.
“There are undoubtedly elements of Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan. And the Taliban … which, on occasions, is completely indistinguishable from Al Qaeda, is a very potent force,” Mr Howard said.
“But the truth is that the great fear of the United States and Australia and the West after September 11 — that there would be other attacks orchestrated out of Afghanistan — that has not materialised.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/john-howard-afghanistan-war-not-a-failure-730-interview/100388644
yeah – nah. Not really sure I agree.
Was the mission so narrowly framed as that? I thought we were going to build / rebuild the country into a self-sufficient strong and democratic place broadly aligned with the western strategic bloc.
Or it could be I wasn’t paying attentions at the time, or maybe my memory has faded a bit.
shrug
Sometimes things aren’t black and white; sometimes the choices are between bad and bad, and you’re going to upset someone no matter what you do.
I think we’ll have a better idea in a few years’time.
dv said:
peers over glasses
Was that entirely appropriate?
sibeen said:
dv said:
peers over glasses
Was that entirely appropriate?
(checks)
Yes.
dv said:
sibeen said:
dv said:
peers over glasses
Was that entirely appropriate?
(checks)
Yes.
But it’s funny.
Hand on heart, I’m not unsympathetic to Howard’s view on this. We don’t get to rerun the experiment but it’s hard to see that things would have been better today if the USA and friends had not intervened in Afghanistan.
Afghans Have Learned To Live With The Taliban
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-19/afghanistan-taliban-protest-jalalabad-ashraf-ghani/100389028
Two witnesses and a former police official told Reuters Taliban fighters opened fire when residents tried to raise Afghanistan’s national flag at a square in the city.
A Taliban official said commanders and soldiers had fired into the air to disperse crowds outside the airport, but told Reuters: “We have no intention to injure anyone.”
Video footage later showed the Taliban firing into the air and attacking people with batons to disperse the crowd.
Taliban were cooperating with efforts to get Americans out of the country but “we’re having some more difficulty” in evacuating US-aligned Afghan citizens.
SCIENCE said:
Afghans Have Learned To Live With The Taliban
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-19/afghanistan-taliban-protest-jalalabad-ashraf-ghani/100389028
Two witnesses and a former police official told Reuters Taliban fighters opened fire when residents tried to raise Afghanistan’s national flag at a square in the city.
A Taliban official said commanders and soldiers had fired into the air to disperse crowds outside the airport, but told Reuters: “We have no intention to injure anyone.”
Video footage later showed the Taliban firing into the air and attacking people with batons to disperse the crowd.
Taliban were cooperating with efforts to get Americans out of the country but “we’re having some more difficulty” in evacuating US-aligned Afghan citizens.
It was unclear if the casualties in Asadabad resulted from the firing or from the stampede that it triggered, witness Mohammed Salim said. “Several people were killed and injured in the stampede and firing by the Taliban.”
The crackdown on protests will raise new doubts about Taliban assurances they have evolved since their 1996-2001 rule when they severely restricted women, staged public executions and blew up ancient Buddhist statues.
While Kabul has been generally calm since Taliban forces entered on Sunday, the airport has been in chaos as people have rushed in to find a way out of the country.
Twelve people have been killed in and around the airport since then, a NATO and a Taliban official said. The deaths were caused either by gunshots or by stampedes, the Taliban official said. “We don’t want to hurt anyone at the airport,” said the Taliban official, who declined to be identified.
—
Under a pact negotiated last year by former US president Donald Trump’s administration, Washington agreed to withdraw its forces in exchange for a Taliban guarantee they would not let Afghanistan be used to launch terrorist attacks.
شاه مات
SCIENCE said:
SCIENCE said:Afghans Have Learned To Live With The Taliban
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-19/afghanistan-taliban-protest-jalalabad-ashraf-ghani/100389028
Two witnesses and a former police official told Reuters Taliban fighters opened fire when residents tried to raise Afghanistan’s national flag at a square in the city.
A Taliban official said commanders and soldiers had fired into the air to disperse crowds outside the airport, but told Reuters: “We have no intention to injure anyone.”
Video footage later showed the Taliban firing into the air and attacking people with batons to disperse the crowd.
Taliban were cooperating with efforts to get Americans out of the country but “we’re having some more difficulty” in evacuating US-aligned Afghan citizens.
It was unclear if the casualties in Asadabad resulted from the firing or from the stampede that it triggered, witness Mohammed Salim said. “Several people were killed and injured in the stampede and firing by the Taliban.”
The crackdown on protests will raise new doubts about Taliban assurances they have evolved since their 1996-2001 rule when they severely restricted women, staged public executions and blew up ancient Buddhist statues.
While Kabul has been generally calm since Taliban forces entered on Sunday, the airport has been in chaos as people have rushed in to find a way out of the country.
Twelve people have been killed in and around the airport since then, a NATO and a Taliban official said. The deaths were caused either by gunshots or by stampedes, the Taliban official said. “We don’t want to hurt anyone at the airport,” said the Taliban official, who declined to be identified.
—
Under a pact negotiated last year by former US president Donald Trump’s administration, Washington agreed to withdraw its forces in exchange for a Taliban guarantee they would not let Afghanistan be used to launch terrorist attacks.
شاه مات
Taliban have some 600 million international money on hold, so its up to them to behave.
dv said:
doesn’t Israel have excellent women’s rights by virtue of giving them military force
dv said:
Like they do with Saudi Arabia?
The Rev Dodgson said:
dv said:
Like they do with Saudi Arabia?
Hehe.
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
doesn’t Israel have excellent women’s rights by virtue of giving them military force
I think Joe missed a spot
China, Russia and Pakistan are staying put for now. Afghanistan has geographical significance, positioned as a bridge between Asia and Europe, and all three countries have an interest in regional stability and want to avoid the country becoming a hotbed of extremism.
“China has all along respected Afghanistan’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, adhered to non-interference in Afghanistan’s internal affairs and pursued a friendly policy toward the entire Afghan people,” Ms Hua said.
—
bullshit they’re the Biggest Baddest Foreign Interferers in … wait does régime boomerang count
—
Beijing fears Afghanistan could become a staging point for separatists in Xinjiang. If only the DPRNA had stayed they could have helped push it along a bit.
We will not allow America to take our women.
Sound familiar? The women belong to the taliban as booty.
Things could go sour from there.
Liberal Redneck – Biden, Trump, and the Taliban
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zyALnRMoxE
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.
Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
dv said:
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
They are 27 separate countries, each with their own parliament and political agenda. Having a combined EU standing army. navy and air force has been discussed but has been a bridge too far for most of them. It would be the beginning of a European Federation, which not everyone is keen on right now.
dv said:
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
so we all agree that Trump was correct and European NATO should be pulling their weight
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
so we all agree that Trump was correct and European NATO should be pulling their weight
Yeah, kinda sorta. It is a bit more complidifficult than that.
NATO was invented as a check on the USSR and all that.
dv said:
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
But they’d have to act in concert…
sibeen said:
dv said:
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
But they’d have to act in concert…
Singling ‘Deutschland Uber Alles’?
party_pants said:
dv said:
London (CNN)When US President Joe Biden finally broke his silence on the chaos unfolding in Afghanistan, European allies who’d had high hopes for a reset in the transatlantic alliance were left dismayed.Their disappointment was not at the contents of Biden’s address, but the America First optics of the leader of the free world washing his hands of a global problem. The unilateral decision to withdraw seemed to somewhat contradict Biden’s claim upon entering the White House that “America is back.”
A crisis like the one unfolding in Afghanistan has, for some, hammered home the bleak reality that, without America, Europe’s immediate ability to control its own destiny is limited.
From London to Paris, Brussels to Berlin, the sudden fall of Kabul shone a light on Europe’s limited diplomatic heft, military capacity, and political stability.
Diplomats and officials all over the continent have privately expressed their sorrow that this is where we are: If the US says it’s over, it’s over.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/20/europe/europe-left-exposed-intl-cmd/index.html
Seems a pessimistic view.
I am not a military expert (duh) but it seems to me that if the EU got their shit together and committed, they could play the role they want the US to play. They have about 1.4 million military personnel, more than the USA, second only to China. They have a combined $ 260 billion military budget, second only to the US. They have some of the most advanced weaponry going.
They are 27 separate countries, each with their own parliament and political agenda. Having a combined EU standing army. navy and air force has been discussed but has been a bridge too far for most of them. It would be the beginning of a European Federation, which not everyone is keen on right now.
I’m not implying they need a combined army. If they were all seriously concerned about the impact of the US’s departure, they could have come to an arrangement to replace them.
SCIENCE said:
bullshit they’re the Biggest Baddest Foreign Interferers in … wait does régime boomerang count
—
Beijing fears Afghanistan could become a staging point for separatists in Xinjiang. If only the DPRNA had stayed they could have helped push it along a bit.
actually the conclusion is obvious
The US have given the Afghan military billions of dollars in weaponry and military equipment. Between 2002 and 2017, they gave the Afghan military an estimated $US28 billion ($39 billion) in weaponry and military equipment.
Kabul and other major cities has left most of that weaponry in the hands of the insurgents. Those weapons are now being brandished across Taliban social media as fighters pose with American-made rifles and vehicles are seen loaded with heavy weapons and mounted with artillery guns. Video showed insurgents inspecting long lines of vehicles and opening crates of new firearms, communications gear and even military drones.
Here’s a look at some of the war booty the Afghan army left behind as they fled, surrendered or defected to the Taliban.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/taliban-new-us-made-war-chest-afghanistan/100393572
As in …
all planned.
Current and former US officials said there was concern those weapons could be used to kill civilians, be seized by other militant groups such as Islamic State to attack US interests in the region, or even potentially be handed over to adversaries including China and Russia.
or used against them but we won’t mention that convenient possibility
SCIENCE said:
SCIENCE said:
bullshit they’re the Biggest Baddest Foreign Interferers in … wait does régime boomerang count
—
Beijing fears Afghanistan could become a staging point for separatists in Xinjiang. If only the DPRNA had stayed they could have helped push it along a bit.
actually the conclusion is obvious
The US have given the Afghan military billions of dollars in weaponry and military equipment. Between 2002 and 2017, they gave the Afghan military an estimated $US28 billion ($39 billion) in weaponry and military equipment.
Kabul and other major cities has left most of that weaponry in the hands of the insurgents. Those weapons are now being brandished across Taliban social media as fighters pose with American-made rifles and vehicles are seen loaded with heavy weapons and mounted with artillery guns. Video showed insurgents inspecting long lines of vehicles and opening crates of new firearms, communications gear and even military drones.
Here’s a look at some of the war booty the Afghan army left behind as they fled, surrendered or defected to the Taliban.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/taliban-new-us-made-war-chest-afghanistan/100393572
As in …
all planned.
Current and former US officials said there was concern those weapons could be used to kill civilians, be seized by other militant groups such as Islamic State to attack US interests in the region, or even potentially be handed over to adversaries including China and Russia.
or used against them but we won’t mention that convenient possibility
So is the Taliban going to smuggle weapons to the uiggers?
dv said:
So is the Taliban going to smuggle weapons to the uiggers?
versus dem chiggers look who knows, geopolitics is complicated, we’re just a simple STEM education entity, and trying to do our own research use our brains
dv said:
SCIENCE said:SCIENCE said:
bullshit they’re the Biggest Baddest Foreign Interferers in … wait does régime boomerang count
—
Beijing fears Afghanistan could become a staging point for separatists in Xinjiang. If only the DPRNA had stayed they could have helped push it along a bit.
actually the conclusion is obvious
The US have given the Afghan military billions of dollars in weaponry and military equipment. Between 2002 and 2017, they gave the Afghan military an estimated $US28 billion ($39 billion) in weaponry and military equipment.
Kabul and other major cities has left most of that weaponry in the hands of the insurgents. Those weapons are now being brandished across Taliban social media as fighters pose with American-made rifles and vehicles are seen loaded with heavy weapons and mounted with artillery guns. Video showed insurgents inspecting long lines of vehicles and opening crates of new firearms, communications gear and even military drones.
Here’s a look at some of the war booty the Afghan army left behind as they fled, surrendered or defected to the Taliban.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/taliban-new-us-made-war-chest-afghanistan/100393572
As in …
all planned.
Current and former US officials said there was concern those weapons could be used to kill civilians, be seized by other militant groups such as Islamic State to attack US interests in the region, or even potentially be handed over to adversaries including China and Russia.
or used against them but we won’t mention that convenient possibility
So is the Taliban going to smuggle weapons to the uiggers?
I don’t think they got a lot of high tech stuff, mostly mortars and pistols.
If only they’d listened to a certain ex-President…
“First you bring out all of the American citizens. Then you bring out ALL equipment. Then you bomb the bases into smithereens—AND THEN YOU BRING OUT THE MILITARY. You don’t do it in reverse order like Biden and our woke Generals did.
No chaos, no death—they wouldn’t even know we left!”
Woodie said:
Lots of women there, hey?
furious said:
Woodie said:
Lots of women there, hey?
well they promised to preserve safety for women so makes sense all the men are fleeing / flying
furious said:
Woodie said:
Lots of women there, hey?
It was on Facebook. So wadda you reckon?
Jonathan Pie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_buiAGqcy7s
party_pants said:
Jonathan Piehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_buiAGqcy7s
He’s right on Johnson, maybe not so much on Biden.
Do Western nations have an obligation to support the nice people in the civil war regions of the world, when some places prefer the nasty people?
Who knows.
Bubblecar said:
party_pants said:
Jonathan Piehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_buiAGqcy7s
He’s right on Johnson, maybe not so much on Biden.
Do Western nations have an obligation to support the nice people in the civil war regions of the world, when some places prefer the nasty people?
Who knows.
Obviously we have an obligation to support the nice people in our considerations and expressions.
That doesn’t necessarily mean we have an obligation to send out our Prince Harrys in helicopters to mow down the moving objects on the monitor, or our Aussie SAS yobs to exterminate anybody at random.
Bubblecar said:
Bubblecar said:
party_pants said:
Jonathan Piehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_buiAGqcy7s
He’s right on Johnson, maybe not so much on Biden.
Do Western nations have an obligation to support the nice people in the civil war regions of the world, when some places prefer the nasty people?
Who knows.
Obviously we have an obligation to support the nice people in our considerations and expressions.
That doesn’t necessarily mean we have an obligation to send out our Prince Harrys in helicopters to mow down the moving objects on the monitor, or our Aussie SAS yobs to exterminate anybody at random.
It is all a bit of a mega clusterfuck really. As has been discussed.
Woodie said:
furious said:
Woodie said:
Lots of women there, hey?
It was on Facebook. So wadda you reckon?
Who knows. It was on bloody Facebook. Could easily be the Kabul Rugby League Club on their end of season trip to Mecca., for all we know.
Lots of comments, hey what but.
Woodie said:
https://www.thejournal.ie/debunk-flight-afghanistan-men-5525177-Aug2021/
“The photo is actually of immigrants being returned to Afghanistan from Turkey in 2018.”
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Didn’t see it.
I reserve the right to shake fists, point and/or laugh, as my be appropriate.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Didn’t see it.
I reserve the right to shake fists, point and/or laugh, as my be appropriate.
Tamb said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Didn’t see it.
I reserve the right to shake fists, point and/or laugh, as my be appropriate.
It’s not so much that we’ve changed, rather that the President has.
Yes.
Haven’t heard his speech yet, but i doubt that he claimed that it was so very unfair, and that everyone is out to get him, which DJT seemed to be able to work into any occasion.
Tamb said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Didn’t see it.
I reserve the right to shake fists, point and/or laugh, as my be appropriate.
It’s not so much that we’ve changed, rather that the President has.
I must say, the transformation this year was truly remarkable.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Tamb said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Didn’t see it.
I reserve the right to shake fists, point and/or laugh, as my be appropriate.
It’s not so much that we’ve changed, rather that the President has.I must say, the transformation this year was truly remarkable.
those lizards morph quite amazingly, almost like a Banach Tarski but realler
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Yeah nah you’re right.
He certainly has a subset of Trump’s faults.
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Yeah nah you’re right.
He certainly has a subset of Trump’s faults.
If we were to look hard enough, we’d find faults and failings with every US President ever, Lincoln included. They’re just men.
At least we don’t have the very worst one any more.
It remains to be seen if a Madam President can do better than all the men.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
The American president gave a speech overnight that wasn’t………well let’s just say it wasn’t one of his best.
But it’s good to see that you guys have matured, you’ve grown up and not showing the mad outrage and fist shaking and pointing and laughing that you used to do.
Yeah nah you’re right.
He certainly has a subset of Trump’s faults.
If we were to look hard enough, we’d find faults and failings with every US President ever, Lincoln included. They’re just men.
At least we don’t have the very worst one any more.
It remains to be seen if a Madam President can do better than all the men.
I wonder how soon we’ll find out?
Arts said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:Yeah nah you’re right.
He certainly has a subset of Trump’s faults.
If we were to look hard enough, we’d find faults and failings with every US President ever, Lincoln included. They’re just men.
At least we don’t have the very worst one any more.
It remains to be seen if a Madam President can do better than all the men.
I wonder how soon we’ll find out?
That’s the big question.
Arts said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:Yeah nah you’re right.
He certainly has a subset of Trump’s faults.
If we were to look hard enough, we’d find faults and failings with every US President ever, Lincoln included. They’re just men.
At least we don’t have the very worst one any more.
It remains to be seen if a Madam President can do better than all the men.
I wonder how soon we’ll find out?
I hope Joseph makes it to Feb 2023 so that Harris has a shot at 10 years
With a shoebox government and a limited number of police and military, it was a shoebox government designed to fail from the beginning. How many more police, military and other trained people would they have needed to to the job properly?
Tau.Neutrino said:
With a shoebox government and a limited number of police and military, it was a shoebox government designed to fail from the beginning. How many more police, military and other trained people would they have needed to to the job properly?
Well I am no military expert, but I thought the general idea of a trained military force is that they stick around and exert practical control over an area of territory. If they don’t have their heart in it and they just hand over their weapons and walk away it is hard to see how any extra numbers would have made a difference.
Tau.Neutrino said:
With a shoebox government and a limited number of police and military, it was a shoebox government designed to fail from the beginning. How many more police, military and other trained people would they have needed to to the job properly?
What’s a shoebox government?
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
With a shoebox government and a limited number of police and military, it was a shoebox government designed to fail from the beginning. How many more police, military and other trained people would they have needed to to the job properly?What’s a shoebox government?
What was really hoped for was that (a) the Taliban wouldn’t have all their shit together and be able to move in to fill the void as quickly as they did,and (b) what government and government forces there were could hold out at least for a while.
The goal: a ‘decent interval’ between Western withdrawal and Afghan collapse.
Tau.Neutrino said:
With a shoebox government and a limited number of police and military, it was a shoebox government designed to fail from the beginning. How many more police, military and other trained people would they have needed to to the job properly?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_National_Army
reading^, you could too
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
With a shoebox government and a limited number of police and military, it was a shoebox government designed to fail from the beginning. How many more police, military and other trained people would they have needed to to the job properly?What’s a shoebox government?
What was really hoped for was that (a) the Taliban wouldn’t have all their shit together and be able to move in to fill the void as quickly as they did,and (b) what government and government forces there were could hold out at least for a while.
The goal: a ‘decent interval’ between Western withdrawal and Afghan collapse.
If that’s true then they must have been hoping all of the Afghan military were complete morons. Why would you fight and maybe die in a lost cause just to save Robinette’s blushes? Better to do what they did: strike the best deal they could.
https://youtu.be/Og0vLc5i-A8
What Americans think about the US withdrawal from Afghanistan
and what communist tabloids in the US think
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/19/us/politics/trump-biden-afghan-taliban.html
dv said:
https://youtu.be/Og0vLc5i-A8
What Americans think about the US withdrawal from Afghanistan
54 minutes is a long time.
Anyone want to give me a quick summary?
dv said:
What was really hoped for was that (a) the Taliban wouldn’t have all their shit together and be able to move in to fill the void as quickly as they did,and (b) what government and government forces there were could hold out at least for a while.
The goal: a ‘decent interval’ between Western withdrawal and Afghan collapse.
If that’s true then they must have been hoping all of the Afghan military were complete morons. Why would you fight and maybe die in a lost cause just to save Robinette’s blushes? Better to do what they did: strike the best deal they could.
I just discovered your riposte, dv.
My mention of ‘a decent interval’ is a quote from Frank Snepp, who was CIA station chief at Nha Trang (or possibly Saigon, can’t remember) at the end of the Vietnam war.
The goal there certainly was that there be a ‘decent interval’ between the withdrawal of US and other nations support for South Vietnam and the fully-anticipated collapse of that government and its forces.
As it was, they/we got 1973, after the Easter Offensive of the North Vietnamese was beaten back in 1972, largely with the assistance of American air power (which included anti-armour strikes by helicopters).
It’s difficult to believe that the US didn’t dust off that ‘plan’ and hope for something similar with Afghanistan.
captain_spalding said:
As it was, they/we got 1973, after the Easter Offensive of the North Vietnamese was beaten back in 1972, largely with the assistance of American air power (which included anti-armour strikes by helicopters).
It’s difficult to believe that the US didn’t dust off that ‘plan’ and hope for something similar with Afghanistan.
Nah I’m not saying you’re wrong.
I meant to say 1973/74.
And that was only because there was the International Commission of Control and Supervision on the ground in South Vietnam.
The ICCS (also known as ‘I Can’t Control Shit’) was made up of representatives from Poland, Hungary, Indonesia, and Canada.
The story was that, when a ceasefire violation occurred, the Canadians would point at a corpse and say ‘that’s a North Vietnamese soldier’.
The Polish and Hungarian reps would say ‘‘that’s not a North Vietnamese soldier’.
The Indonesian reps would say ‘I don’t know what that is’.
The ICCS set up checkpoints to monitor the return of NVA forces to North Vietnam after the Paris Accord ceasefire, and a number of NVA soldiers passed through them.
The number was about ten.
I think the word heartwarming is completely and forever skunked
https://twitter.com/SamEdwardd/status/1240080109857619968?s=20
Helmetcam footage of SAS troopers murdering an unarmed child in Afghanistan
dv said:
https://twitter.com/SamEdwardd/status/1240080109857619968?s=20Helmetcam footage of SAS troopers murdering an unarmed child in Afghanistan
That’s f#$%Ed. Should never happen. Luckily the West has pulled out now and everything is all milk and honey…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjshir_resistance
Seems not everyone has quite given up
Good Move News, Resupplying The Taliban Begins To Achieve What We All Want
A suicide bomber in Pakistan has attacked a motorcade of Chinese personnel, injuring one Chinese national and killing two local children, according to the nation’s Chinese embassy.
This WSJ highlights for me how complex and subjective the analysis is.
All of these expert-written articles have completely different analyses of what went wrong. The US was too ambitous, not ambitious enough, they nearly succeeded, they never had a chance, they needed to wipe out the Taliban, they needed to stand back and play a low key role, they needed to commit to a long term presence, they needed to gtfo.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/what-went-wrong-in-afghanistan-11629472600
dv said:
This WSJ highlights for me how complex and subjective the analysis is.All of these expert-written articles have completely different analyses of what went wrong. The US was too ambitous, not ambitious enough, they nearly succeeded, they never had a chance, they needed to wipe out the Taliban, they needed to stand back and play a low key role, they needed to commit to a long term presence, they needed to gtfo.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/what-went-wrong-in-afghanistan-11629472600
Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
This WSJ highlights for me how complex and subjective the analysis is.All of these expert-written articles have completely different analyses of what went wrong. The US was too ambitous, not ambitious enough, they nearly succeeded, they never had a chance, they needed to wipe out the Taliban, they needed to stand back and play a low key role, they needed to commit to a long term presence, they needed to gtfo.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/what-went-wrong-in-afghanistan-11629472600
Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
shakes fist at Trump
Peak Warming Man said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
This WSJ highlights for me how complex and subjective the analysis is.All of these expert-written articles have completely different analyses of what went wrong. The US was too ambitous, not ambitious enough, they nearly succeeded, they never had a chance, they needed to wipe out the Taliban, they needed to stand back and play a low key role, they needed to commit to a long term presence, they needed to gtfo.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/what-went-wrong-in-afghanistan-11629472600
Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
shakes fist at Trump
This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
This WSJ highlights for me how complex and subjective the analysis is.All of these expert-written articles have completely different analyses of what went wrong. The US was too ambitous, not ambitious enough, they nearly succeeded, they never had a chance, they needed to wipe out the Taliban, they needed to stand back and play a low key role, they needed to commit to a long term presence, they needed to gtfo.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/what-went-wrong-in-afghanistan-11629472600
Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
shakes fist at Trump
This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
OTOH he could possibly be a bit more honest about the way the order of events. It might be that the deal with the Taliban bears fruit. If it’s really the case that the central government was not ever going to hold then pulling the plug may have been the right move.
https://www.newsweek.com/gop-removes-webpage-praising-trumps-historic-peace-deal-taliban-1619605
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
This WSJ highlights for me how complex and subjective the analysis is.All of these expert-written articles have completely different analyses of what went wrong. The US was too ambitous, not ambitious enough, they nearly succeeded, they never had a chance, they needed to wipe out the Taliban, they needed to stand back and play a low key role, they needed to commit to a long term presence, they needed to gtfo.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/what-went-wrong-in-afghanistan-11629472600
Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Agree.
But can they have tribal lifestyles without the chaos of head chopping?
How many thinkers are in the Taliban?
How can the Taliban continue relations with the rest of the world when they are so hostile to it?
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
shakes fist at Trump
This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
You’re right, I was being irresponsible and childish.
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
shakes fist at Trump
This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
The responsibility was also most of white house, most of the congress and most of the senate.
I have no idea what most in the pentagon thought.
A lot of Americans were tired of it after 20 years.
But why spend all that money for an unwanted outcome?
Why go in there and leave the job unfinished?
How many people are diplomatically trained in the Taliban?
What did the Taliban do for 20 years?
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:shakes fist at Trump
This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
You’re right, I was being irresponsible and childish.
Shakes fist at PWM
Tau.Neutrino said:
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Yes lots of things went wrong, but I believe it was deliberately planned to go wrong. Afghanistan has become an almost permanent war platform so this activity and resource grabbing can continue under different banners.
A tinpot shoebox government running on a string budget cannot do the job. A larger government, a larger police force and a larger military presence was needed, what was there crumpled too easily.
Trump played an imbecile while the Taliban took back lost gains. The media kept quiet about it.
Its up to the Taliban to behave a bit better, I don’t think they can, so it be be a wait and see.
It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Agree.
But can they have tribal lifestyles without the chaos of head chopping?
How many thinkers are in the Taliban?
How can the Taliban continue relations with the rest of the world when they are so hostile to it?
I mean I assume the West is still addicted to opioids.
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
party_pants said:It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Agree.
But can they have tribal lifestyles without the chaos of head chopping?
How many thinkers are in the Taliban?
How can the Taliban continue relations with the rest of the world when they are so hostile to it?
I mean I assume the West is still addicted to opioids.
Yeah, there is that.
If I were in charge of the Taliban, I would allow anybody who wants to leave to leave. Then they’d end up with the population that approves of the way they do things.
But then, I’m hardly in charge of myself, let alone the Taliban and the Afghani population.
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:shakes fist at Trump
This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
The responsibility was also most of white house, most of the congress and most of the senate.
I have no idea what most in the pentagon thought.
A lot of Americans were tired of it after 20 years.
But why spend all that money for an unwanted outcome?
Why go in there and leave the job unfinished?
How many people are diplomatically trained in the Taliban?
What did the Taliban do for 20 years?
Although “the return of the Taliban” isn’t really on Biden’s plate, he fucked up in 3 major ways.
He was completely wrong about the speed of capitulation despite having whole agencies whose job is to make these assessments. This left his own people and their staff in unnecessary peril.
He made public statements that were both disingenuous and incorrect which made him look like a fool and made the US as a whole look hapless.
He completely failed to prepare his employers, the US public, about the reality of the situation and the unlikelihood of the survival of the central Afghan state. I mean he was the fourth consecutive president to do that but he was in the hot seat when the wheel of bullshit stopped spinning and he should have confessed.
party_pants said:
It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Afghanistan wasn’t doing all that badly before the Russians decided it would be a nice little territory to tack on to their empire. It was no Disneyland, but it had tolerable standards of life and education for just about everyone.
After they invaded and murdered anyone who had any idea of how things ran in the country, it really started to go bum-up.
They found that the country was too rugged, too large, and too tribal to run from Kabul as a ‘foreign’ government, especially when you didn’t have local cadres on your side, and the only tool in your box was the hammer of aremd force..
Of course, the Americans couldn’t leave things alone (rightly or wrongly) and they started feeding support to the Afghan resistance, mostly via Pakistan.
This put Pakistan in the driver’s seat, and nothing happened without Pakistan’s say so, and the Americans largely knew only what Pakistan told them. They realised that Pakistan was playing a double game with them, but the Americans couldn’t play at all without Pakistan in the picture, so they had to grin and bear it.
Once the Russian finally got the shits with it and left, there was a power vacuum in Afghanistan.
All the previous leaders were either dead or had been in exile for so long that there was no point in trying to bring them back. The Americans weren’t really interested in what happened next, because they’d only been there to annoy the Russians, and no Russians meant no interest. They never had a long term plan for the country. Not for a minute.
So, the Taliban stepped in ,and, like any theocracy, it quickly degenerated to government by people who were keen to prove they were holier than everyone else by bringing in ever more savage repression of anything that didn’t involve ‘praising God’.
dv said:
He made public statements that were both disingenuous and incorrect which made him look like a fool and made the US as a whole look hapless.
He completely failed to prepare his employers, the US public, about the reality of the situation and the unlikelihood of the survival of the central Afghan state. I mean he was the fourth consecutive president to do that but he was in the hot seat when the wheel of bullshit stopped spinning and he should have confessed.
so he had an opportunity to be honest and indict the other 3 but instead chose to talk trash and take it all himself
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:This isn’t really on Trump, dude, be reasonable.
The responsibility was also most of white house, most of the congress and most of the senate.
I have no idea what most in the pentagon thought.
A lot of Americans were tired of it after 20 years.
But why spend all that money for an unwanted outcome?
Why go in there and leave the job unfinished?
How many people are diplomatically trained in the Taliban?
What did the Taliban do for 20 years?
Although “the return of the Taliban” isn’t really on Biden’s plate, he fucked up in 3 major ways.
He was completely wrong about the speed of capitulation despite having whole agencies whose job is to make these assessments. This left his own people and their staff in unnecessary peril.
He made public statements that were both disingenuous and incorrect which made him look like a fool and made the US as a whole look hapless.
He completely failed to prepare his employers, the US public, about the reality of the situation and the unlikelihood of the survival of the central Afghan state. I mean he was the fourth consecutive president to do that but he was in the hot seat when the wheel of bullshit stopped spinning and he should have confessed.
His predecessor was both inept and hostile to both America and Biden, having an outgoing president who is inept discouraged a lot of people in the military and pubic service from doing their job properly, how could they do they job properly, they couldn’t.
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
party_pants said:It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Agree.
But can they have tribal lifestyles without the chaos of head chopping?
How many thinkers are in the Taliban?
How can the Taliban continue relations with the rest of the world when they are so hostile to it?
I mean I assume the West is still addicted to opioids.
Yes. Quite a source of funds in opium and hashish.
roughbarked said:
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Agree.
But can they have tribal lifestyles without the chaos of head chopping?
How many thinkers are in the Taliban?
How can the Taliban continue relations with the rest of the world when they are so hostile to it?
I mean I assume the West is still addicted to opioids.
Yes. Quite a source of funds in opium and hashish.
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:I mean I assume the West is still addicted to opioids.
Yes. Quite a source of funds in opium and hashish.
It suits them three ways. Source of $$. Weaken the West & enhance the spread of Islam.
In the end the Taliban are a group of angry old men clinging onto outdated medieval religious values and wanting power and control over others, we don’t cut peoples heads off any more and we like to see our women educated, we have moved on from all that.
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Afghanistan wasn’t doing all that badly before the Russians decided it would be a nice little territory to tack on to their empire. It was no Disneyland, but it had tolerable standards of life and education for just about everyone.
After they invaded and murdered anyone who had any idea of how things ran in the country, it really started to go bum-up.
They found that the country was too rugged, too large, and too tribal to run from Kabul as a ‘foreign’ government, especially when you didn’t have local cadres on your side, and the only tool in your box was the hammer of aremd force..
Of course, the Americans couldn’t leave things alone (rightly or wrongly) and they started feeding support to the Afghan resistance, mostly via Pakistan.
This put Pakistan in the driver’s seat, and nothing happened without Pakistan’s say so, and the Americans largely knew only what Pakistan told them. They realised that Pakistan was playing a double game with them, but the Americans couldn’t play at all without Pakistan in the picture, so they had to grin and bear it.
Once the Russian finally got the shits with it and left, there was a power vacuum in Afghanistan.
All the previous leaders were either dead or had been in exile for so long that there was no point in trying to bring them back. The Americans weren’t really interested in what happened next, because they’d only been there to annoy the Russians, and no Russians meant no interest. They never had a long term plan for the country. Not for a minute.
So, the Taliban stepped in ,and, like any theocracy, it quickly degenerated to government by people who were keen to prove they were holier than everyone else by bringing in ever more savage repression of anything that didn’t involve ‘praising God’.
Yeah, it is all pretty fucked up.
Sending in an army to rebuild a country and change attitudes seems like the wrong tool. With the benefit of hindsight of course, although there were probably many saying this in the early Naughties too.
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:I mean I assume the West is still addicted to opioids.
Yes. Quite a source of funds in opium and hashish.
It suits them three ways. Source of $$. Weaken the West & enhance the spread of Islam.
What I didn’t know is that the Taliban are sunni, apparently.
So I’ll have to do a reassessment of their relationship with Iran.
Tau.Neutrino said:
In the end the Taliban are a group of angry old men clinging onto outdated medieval religious values and wanting power and control over others…
NATO should bomb and occupy Vatican City.
Much easier target.
:)
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:In the end the Taliban are a group of angry old men clinging onto outdated medieval religious values and wanting power and control over others…
NATO should bomb and occupy Vatican City.
Much easier target.
:)
By the time they finished bombing there’d be nothing to occupy.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Afghanistan wasn’t doing all that badly before the Russians decided it would be a nice little territory to tack on to their empire. It was no Disneyland, but it had tolerable standards of life and education for just about everyone.
After they invaded and murdered anyone who had any idea of how things ran in the country, it really started to go bum-up.
They found that the country was too rugged, too large, and too tribal to run from Kabul as a ‘foreign’ government, especially when you didn’t have local cadres on your side, and the only tool in your box was the hammer of aremd force..
Of course, the Americans couldn’t leave things alone (rightly or wrongly) and they started feeding support to the Afghan resistance, mostly via Pakistan.
This put Pakistan in the driver’s seat, and nothing happened without Pakistan’s say so, and the Americans largely knew only what Pakistan told them. They realised that Pakistan was playing a double game with them, but the Americans couldn’t play at all without Pakistan in the picture, so they had to grin and bear it.
Once the Russian finally got the shits with it and left, there was a power vacuum in Afghanistan.
All the previous leaders were either dead or had been in exile for so long that there was no point in trying to bring them back. The Americans weren’t really interested in what happened next, because they’d only been there to annoy the Russians, and no Russians meant no interest. They never had a long term plan for the country. Not for a minute.
So, the Taliban stepped in ,and, like any theocracy, it quickly degenerated to government by people who were keen to prove they were holier than everyone else by bringing in ever more savage repression of anything that didn’t involve ‘praising God’.
Yeah, it is all pretty fucked up.
Sending in an army to rebuild a country and change attitudes seems like the wrong tool. With the benefit of hindsight of course, although there were probably many saying this in the early Naughties too.
Tamb said:
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:Afghanistan wasn’t doing all that badly before the Russians decided it would be a nice little territory to tack on to their empire. It was no Disneyland, but it had tolerable standards of life and education for just about everyone.
After they invaded and murdered anyone who had any idea of how things ran in the country, it really started to go bum-up.
They found that the country was too rugged, too large, and too tribal to run from Kabul as a ‘foreign’ government, especially when you didn’t have local cadres on your side, and the only tool in your box was the hammer of aremd force..
Of course, the Americans couldn’t leave things alone (rightly or wrongly) and they started feeding support to the Afghan resistance, mostly via Pakistan.
This put Pakistan in the driver’s seat, and nothing happened without Pakistan’s say so, and the Americans largely knew only what Pakistan told them. They realised that Pakistan was playing a double game with them, but the Americans couldn’t play at all without Pakistan in the picture, so they had to grin and bear it.
Once the Russian finally got the shits with it and left, there was a power vacuum in Afghanistan.
All the previous leaders were either dead or had been in exile for so long that there was no point in trying to bring them back. The Americans weren’t really interested in what happened next, because they’d only been there to annoy the Russians, and no Russians meant no interest. They never had a long term plan for the country. Not for a minute.
So, the Taliban stepped in ,and, like any theocracy, it quickly degenerated to government by people who were keen to prove they were holier than everyone else by bringing in ever more savage repression of anything that didn’t involve ‘praising God’.
Yeah, it is all pretty fucked up.
Sending in an army to rebuild a country and change attitudes seems like the wrong tool. With the benefit of hindsight of course, although there were probably many saying this in the early Naughties too.
Vietnam war “Winning the hearts & minds of the people”
That too.
I think we can write “winning the hearts and minds of the people through military intervention” on the list of “ideas that don’t work”.
SCIENCE said:
dv said:
He made public statements that were both disingenuous and incorrect which made him look like a fool and made the US as a whole look hapless.
He completely failed to prepare his employers, the US public, about the reality of the situation and the unlikelihood of the survival of the central Afghan state. I mean he was the fourth consecutive president to do that but he was in the hot seat when the wheel of bullshit stopped spinning and he should have confessed.
so he had an opportunity to be honest and indict the other 3 but instead chose to talk trash and take it all himself
When you think about it he’s kind of a hero.
Actually it might end up something like that if he hands over to Harris soon.
Here’s an idea, how about one of these spacey billionaires just straight up bribes the Taliban leadership into some basic protection of women’s rights and safety.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Afghanistan wasn’t doing all that badly before the Russians decided it would be a nice little territory to tack on to their empire. It was no Disneyland, but it had tolerable standards of life and education for just about everyone.
After they invaded and murdered anyone who had any idea of how things ran in the country, it really started to go bum-up.
They found that the country was too rugged, too large, and too tribal to run from Kabul as a ‘foreign’ government, especially when you didn’t have local cadres on your side, and the only tool in your box was the hammer of aremd force..
Of course, the Americans couldn’t leave things alone (rightly or wrongly) and they started feeding support to the Afghan resistance, mostly via Pakistan.
This put Pakistan in the driver’s seat, and nothing happened without Pakistan’s say so, and the Americans largely knew only what Pakistan told them. They realised that Pakistan was playing a double game with them, but the Americans couldn’t play at all without Pakistan in the picture, so they had to grin and bear it.
Once the Russian finally got the shits with it and left, there was a power vacuum in Afghanistan.
All the previous leaders were either dead or had been in exile for so long that there was no point in trying to bring them back. The Americans weren’t really interested in what happened next, because they’d only been there to annoy the Russians, and no Russians meant no interest. They never had a long term plan for the country. Not for a minute.
So, the Taliban stepped in ,and, like any theocracy, it quickly degenerated to government by people who were keen to prove they were holier than everyone else by bringing in ever more savage repression of anything that didn’t involve ‘praising God’.
Yeah, it is all pretty fucked up.
Sending in an army to rebuild a country and change attitudes seems like the wrong tool. With the benefit of hindsight of course, although there were probably many saying this in the early Naughties too.
“Afghanistan wasn’t doing all that badly before the Russians decided it would be a nice little territory to tack on to their empire. It was no Disneyland, but it had tolerable standards of life and education for just about everyone.”
Note that that shining golden age was under the Soviet puppet government of Mohammed Daoud Khan.
Peak Warming Man said:
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:Yes. Quite a source of funds in opium and hashish.
It suits them three ways. Source of $$. Weaken the West & enhance the spread of Islam.What I didn’t know is that the Taliban are sunni, apparently.
So I’ll have to do a reassessment of their relationship with Iran.
The Taliban straight up murdered a lot of Iranian officials during their first gig
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Tamb said:It suits them three ways. Source of $$. Weaken the West & enhance the spread of Islam.
What I didn’t know is that the Taliban are sunni, apparently.
So I’ll have to do a reassessment of their relationship with Iran.
The Taliban straight up murdered a lot of Iranian officials during their first gig
Iran has the two largest branches of Islam, Sunni and Shi’i the overwhelming majority of Iranians practicing Shi’i Islam. About 90 percent of Iranians practice Shi’ism, the official religion of Iran.
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Tamb said:It suits them three ways. Source of $$. Weaken the West & enhance the spread of Islam.
What I didn’t know is that the Taliban are sunni, apparently.
So I’ll have to do a reassessment of their relationship with Iran.
The Taliban straight up murdered a lot of Iranian officials during their first gig
They were called the Mujahadeen then though weren’t they?
roughbarked said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:What I didn’t know is that the Taliban are sunni, apparently.
So I’ll have to do a reassessment of their relationship with Iran.
The Taliban straight up murdered a lot of Iranian officials during their first gig
They were called the Mujahadeen then though weren’t they?
I wonder how they are partying today?
roughbarked said:
dv said:
Peak Warming Man said:What I didn’t know is that the Taliban are sunni, apparently.
So I’ll have to do a reassessment of their relationship with Iran.
The Taliban straight up murdered a lot of Iranian officials during their first gig
They were called the Mujahadeen then though weren’t they?
I’m referring to the first Taliban government in the late 1990s
A Look At Afghanistan’s 40 Years Of Crisis — From The Soviet War To Taliban Recapture
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/19/1028472005/afghanistan-conflict-timeline
dv said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:The Taliban straight up murdered a lot of Iranian officials during their first gig
They were called the Mujahadeen then though weren’t they?
I’m referring to the first Taliban government in the late 1990s
OK.
party_pants said:
It seems to me like there is a more fundamental lack of something going on in the population there. The basic concept of a Afghanistan as a “country” in the modern sense of a national state with all the necessary institutions and apparatus of government – seems like a foreign idea being imposed upon them by outsiders. To us it seems like the natural and logical way that things should be run and organised. But to them, it seems there was no underlying philosophical commitment to having such an arrangement in place, not one worth fighting for at any rate.
Yeah… I mean I suppose it is not impossible that there will be a genuine figure or purpose of national unity, a Gandhi or a Mandela or Attaturk.
https://youtu.be/eJ4Y0NMDn8s
The US ignored corruption in the Afghan government. Did this lead to its downfall?
Sarah Chayes discusses on PBS News
dv said:
Here’s an idea, how about one of these spacey billionaires just straight up bribes the Taliban leadership into some basic protection of women’s rights and safety.
What’s in it for the billionaires?
Maybe they just get to keep all the people they can bribe the Taliban for and ship them out of Af to the billionaire’s home country, where these people will become low wage workers unable to form labour unions or complain about poor working conditions. A modern day slave trade, in other words.
dv said:
https://youtu.be/eJ4Y0NMDn8sThe US ignored corruption in the Afghan government. Did this lead to its downfall?
Sarah Chayes discusses on PBS News
Yes, It would have had a hand in it, on the other hand, if he stayed…. he probably deaded by now.
Bogsnorkler said:
Well said.
They kept playing the same song over and over as the ship went down.
Bogsnorkler said:
Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Bogsnorkler said:
Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
The US president is the head of the US military, Trump really did a shit job over four years.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Bogsnorkler said:
Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Bogsnorkler said:
Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
The US president is the head of the US military, Trump really did a shit job over four years.
shakes fist at Trump
Peak Warming Man said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
The US president is the head of the US military, Trump really did a shit job over four years.
shakes fist at Trump
:)
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Bogsnorkler said:
Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
Russia has had its turn.
America has had its turn.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Did the America put in an inept imbecile President to get out of Afghanistan?
Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
China maybe
Bogsnorkler said:
yes.
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
China maybe
This could be on the cards. Next superpower looking for resources.
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
China maybe
They have 91km of boarder so why not. Perhaps the Taliban need the education camping
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
China maybe
They have 91km of boarder so why not. Perhaps the Taliban need the education camping
Havent they had camping training, its been 20 years.
Are there any estimates for how long will the Taliban government will last?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
dv said:China maybe
They have 91km of boarder so why not. Perhaps the Taliban need the education camping
Havent they had camping training, its been 20 years.
eh different kind of education needed comrade
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:They have 91km of boarder so why not. Perhaps the Taliban need the education camping
Havent they had camping training, its been 20 years.
eh different kind of education needed comrade
ok.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Are there any estimates for how long will the Taliban government will last?
Would you like to open a book.
I have noticed Taliban gunmen observing trigger disciple and muzzle disciple.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
Russia has had its turn.
America has had its turn.
IIRC, Afghanistan has been invaded over 200 times in the past couple of centuries.
The sooner the rest of the world is able to forget that the country exists, the better off the rest of the world will be.
Tough on the Afghans, yeah, but…
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:Personally I think the 4 presidents could have been anyone. It’s the trillions of $$$$$ spent that are the important thing to take away from the whole shitshow that has always been Afghanistan in the last 20 years
I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
China maybe
That’d be worth a guinea a minute.
China would find that it’s no walkover like Tibet was.
Anyway, they won’t invade. They’ll find other uses for it.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
Russia has had its turn.
America has had its turn.IIRC, Afghanistan has been invaded over 200 times in the past couple of centuries.
The sooner the rest of the world is able to forget that the country exists, the better off the rest of the world will be.
Tough on the Afghans, yeah, but…
That’s kind of what happened in the late 90s, and they hosted a terrorist organisation that killed a lot of people elsewhere.
Tau.Neutrino said:
I have noticed Taliban gunmen observing trigger disciple and muzzle disciple.
Yes.
I pointed this out several days back.
Must have had some good instructors in.
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Russia has had its turn.
America has had its turn.IIRC, Afghanistan has been invaded over 200 times in the past couple of centuries.
The sooner the rest of the world is able to forget that the country exists, the better off the rest of the world will be.
Tough on the Afghans, yeah, but…
That’s kind of what happened in the late 90s, and they hosted a terrorist organisation that killed a lot of people elsewhere.
Do you think the Proud Boys will start an Afghani affiliate?
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:I wonder which country will invade Afghanistan next?
Russia has had its turn.
America has had its turn.IIRC, Afghanistan has been invaded over 200 times in the past couple of centuries.
The sooner the rest of the world is able to forget that the country exists, the better off the rest of the world will be.
Tough on the Afghans, yeah, but…
The UN needs to address weak governments that are exploited for their resources.
They should fall under UN protection until stabilization. World resource sharing needs to be more amicable, a task nearly impossible with today’s attitudes.
Tau.Neutrino said:
They should fall under UN protection until stabilization.
That sounds lie what Mulder and Scully used to say in ‘The X Files’:
“dont worry, we’ll protect you”.
You knew then that that character had about 90 seconds to live.
Witty Rejoinder said:
dv said:
captain_spalding said:IIRC, Afghanistan has been invaded over 200 times in the past couple of centuries.
The sooner the rest of the world is able to forget that the country exists, the better off the rest of the world will be.
Tough on the Afghans, yeah, but…
That’s kind of what happened in the late 90s, and they hosted a terrorist organisation that killed a lot of people elsewhere.
Do you think the Proud Boys will start an Afghani affiliate?
Synergy
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:They should fall under UN protection until stabilization.
That sounds lie what Mulder and Scully used to say in ‘The X Files’:
“dont worry, we’ll protect you”.
You knew then that that character had about 90 seconds to live.
Yes, your right, I was day dreaming.
Well, with trigger disciple hopefully it will be quieter during the day and night.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Well, with trigger disciple hopefully it will be quieter during the day and night.
The days of the Mujahideen and the early Taliban saw lots of accidental gunfire in vehicles because of bumps in the road.
Taliban Save Lives In Afghanistan
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-22/afghans-killed-in-chaos-at-kabul-airport-taliban/100397898
The Taliban have fired shots in the air and used batons to make people line up in orderly queues outside Kabul airport, one day after seven people were killed in a crush at the gates. On Sunday, there were no major injuries as gunmen beat back the crowds and long lines of people were being formed, the witnesses said.
Britain’s defence ministry said seven Afghans were killed in the crush around the airport on Saturday as thousands of people desperately tried to get a flight out, a week after the Taliban took control of the country. Sky News showed footage of soldiers standing on a wall on Saturday attempting to pull the injured out from the crush and spraying people with a hose to prevent them from getting dehydrated.
SCIENCE said:
Taliban Save Lives In Afghanistanhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-22/afghans-killed-in-chaos-at-kabul-airport-taliban/100397898
The Taliban have fired shots in the air and used batons to make people line up in orderly queues outside Kabul airport, one day after seven people were killed in a crush at the gates. On Sunday, there were no major injuries as gunmen beat back the crowds and long lines of people were being formed, the witnesses said.
Britain’s defence ministry said seven Afghans were killed in the crush around the airport on Saturday as thousands of people desperately tried to get a flight out, a week after the Taliban took control of the country. Sky News showed footage of soldiers standing on a wall on Saturday attempting to pull the injured out from the crush and spraying people with a hose to prevent them from getting dehydrated.
What things have the Taliban learnt over 20 years?
How to use trigger disciple.
How to use muzzle disciple.
How to hold a gun properly.
How to take over the government.
How to treat people properly?
How to treat women properly?
How to form government without killing anyone?
How to hold onto government without killing anyone?
How to help people in distress?
How to refrain from discharging weapons into the air?
How to refrain from using planes to fly into buildings?
How to refrain from chopping heads off?
Others?
Maybe we might see a new Taliban?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/taliban-fighters-head-to-panjshir-afghanistan/100398178
The Taliban say that “hundreds” of its fighters are heading to the Panjshir Valley, one of the few parts of Afghanistan not yet controlled by the group.
Since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan, flickers of resistance have begun to emerge with some ex-government troops gathering in the Panjshir, approximately 125 kilometres north of Kabul, long known as an anti-Taliban bastion.
“Hundreds of Mujahideen of the Islamic Emirate are heading towards the state of Panjshir to control it, after local state officials refused to hand it over peacefully,” the Taliban wrote on its Arabic Twitter account.
Ali Maisam Nazary, head of foreign relations for the Afghan National Resistance Front (NRF) said thousands of people have made their way to Panjshir to both join the fight and find a safe haven to continue their lives.
There, Ahmad Massoud, the son of former Afghan commander Ahmad Shah Massoud, who was assassinated by Al Qaeda two days before the September 11, 2001 attacks, has assembled a fighting force of around 9,000 people, Mr Nazary added.
Pictures taken by AFP during training exercises show dozens of recruits performing fitness routines, and a handful of armoured humvees driving across the valley north-east of Kabul.
“Lawyers for Nasir said the Australian authorities required his family send their visa documents in the post.”
From here:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/adf-interpreter-family-evacuated-by-us-air-force/100398162
If this is correct, words fail me…
buffy said:
“Lawyers for Nasir said the Australian authorities required his family send their visa documents in the post.”From here:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/adf-interpreter-family-evacuated-by-us-air-force/100398162
If this is correct, words fail me…
Border security was Scomo’s fave interpretation.
Ahmad Massoud is the leader of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan.
In 1998, when I was 9 years old, my father, the mujahideen commander Ahmad Shah Massoud, gathered his soldiers in a cave in the Panjshir Valley of northern Afghanistan. They sat and listened as my father’s friend, French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy, addressed them. “When you fight for your freedom,” Lévy said, “you fight also for our freedom.”
My father never forgot this as he fought against the Taliban regime. Up until the moment he was assassinated on Sept. 9, 2001, at the behest of the Taliban and al-Qaeda, he was fighting for the fate of Afghanistan but also for the West.
Now this common struggle is more essential than ever in these dark, tense hours for my homeland.
I write from the Panjshir Valley today, ready to follow in my father’s footsteps, with mujahideen fighters who are prepared to once again take on the Taliban. We have stores of ammunition and arms that we have patiently collected since my father’s time, because we knew this day might come.
We also have the weapons carried by the Afghans who, over the past 72 hours, have responded to my appeal to join the resistance in Panjshir. We have soldiers from the Afghan regular army who were disgusted by the surrender of their commanders and are now making their way to the hills of Panjshir with their equipment. Former members of the Afghan Special Forces have also joined our struggle.
But that is not enough. If Taliban warlords launch an assault, they will of course face staunch resistance from us. The flag of the National Resistance Front will fly over every position that they attempt to take, as the National United Front flag flew 20 years ago. Yet we know that our military forces and logistics will not be sufficient. They will be rapidly depleted unless our friends in the West can find a way to supply us without delay.
The United States and its allies have left the battlefield, but America can still be a “great arsenal of democracy,” as Franklin D. Roosevelt said when coming to the aid of the beleaguered British before the U.S. entry into World War II.
To that end, I entreat Afghanistan’s friends in the West to intercede for us in Washington and in New York, with Congress and with the Biden administration. Intercede for us in London, where I completed my studies, and in Paris, where my father’s memory was honored this spring by the naming of a pathway for him in the Champs-Élysées gardens.
Know that millions of Afghans share your values. We have fought for so long to have an open society, one where girls could become doctors, our press could report freely, our young people could dance and listen to music or attend soccer matches in the stadiums that were once used by the Taliban for public executions — and may soon be again.
The Taliban is not a problem for the Afghan people alone. Under Taliban control, Afghanistan will without doubt become ground zero of radical Islamist terrorism; plots against democracies will be hatched here once again.
No matter what happens, my mujahideen fighters and I will defend Panjshir as the last bastion of Afghan freedom. Our morale is intact. We know from experience what awaits us.
But we need more weapons, more ammunition and more supplies.
America and its democratic allies do not just have the fight against terrorism in common with Afghans. We now have a long history made up of shared ideals and struggles. There is still much that you can do to aid the cause of freedom. You are our only remaining hope.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/18/mujahideen-resistance-taliban-ahmad-massoud/
O.o
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
O.o
?
dv said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
O.o
?
just trying to contemplate being in that position and struggling with it and thinking how lucky we are here even with the stuff going on around us..
that me being boggled.
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
dv said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
O.o
?
just trying to contemplate being in that position and struggling with it and thinking how lucky we are here even with the stuff going on around us..
that me being boggled.
Yeah they don’t have much chance
dv said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
dv said:?
just trying to contemplate being in that position and struggling with it and thinking how lucky we are here even with the stuff going on around us..
that me being boggled.
Yeah they don’t have much chance
At leas they’ll have their religious rights ardently protected.
dv said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
dv said:?
just trying to contemplate being in that position and struggling with it and thinking how lucky we are here even with the stuff going on around us..
that me being boggled.
Yeah they don’t have much chance
they are royally fucked indeed.
that O.o took me 15 minutes to write too btw…..
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:just trying to contemplate being in that position and struggling with it and thinking how lucky we are here even with the stuff going on around us..
that me being boggled.
Yeah they don’t have much chance
At leas they’ll have their religious rights ardently protected.
*rites
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
dv said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:just trying to contemplate being in that position and struggling with it and thinking how lucky we are here even with the stuff going on around us..
that me being boggled.
Yeah they don’t have much chance
they are royally fucked indeed.
that O.o took me 15 minutes to write too btw…..
Well I appreciate that you stuck with it
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:Yeah they don’t have much chance
At leas they’ll have their religious rights ardently protected.
*rites
Both.
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:Yeah they don’t have much chance
At leas they’ll have their religious rights ardently protected.
*rites
somehow I don’t think those in dire straits are the ones whose religious rights are being protected. or if so is their least concern.
How Afghanistan became a failed state:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jsvmQR19TE
Roughly a 20 minute video. I subscribe to this channel. The guy that does it is based in Baku, Azerbaijan – so he has a bit of a different perspective on things. I don’t agree with everything he says but I find he often digs up information not widely published elsewhere. Well worth the watch, he is neither pro USA, Europe, Russia or China.
ABC Radio news reports that people who have made it through Taliban check points and have been issued electronic visas for Australia are being told they can’t board without a printed visa in the passport, which is a problem because there’s no Australian consular presence in Afghanistan.
dv said:
ABC Radio news reports that people who have made it through Taliban check points and have been issued electronic visas for Australia are being told they can’t board without a printed visa in the passport, which is a problem because there’s no Australian consular presence in Afghanistan.
You think there would be some simple solution
party_pants said:
dv said:
ABC Radio news reports that people who have made it through Taliban check points and have been issued electronic visas for Australia are being told they can’t board without a printed visa in the passport, which is a problem because there’s no Australian consular presence in Afghanistan.
You think there would be some simple solution
There is, it’s called intelligence. Australian beaurocracy doesn’t have it.
Amrullah Saleh, who was until recently was vice president of Afghanistan and in the 1990s was a Northern Alliance, has joined what remains of the resistance in Panjshir Valley.
CIA Director William J. Burns met face-to-face with the top Taliban leader in Kabul on Monday, according to two US officials, as the US continues airlifting American citizens and its Afghan allies out of Afghanistan by a looming Aug. 31 deadline.
The Biden administration has been in regular contact with Taliban officials throughout the course of the evacuation process, both on the ground in Afghanistan and in Doha, Qatar.
But the covert meeting, first reported Tuesday by The Washington Post, between Burns and Taliban co-founder and deputy leader Abdul Ghani Baradar amounts to the highest-level direct exchange of views since the militant group took control of the capital, a US official briefed on the matter told CNN.
The meeting also underscores the view inside the administration that they need a clearer understanding of where the Taliban stands on several issues as the clock ticks towards the Aug. 31 deadline to withdraw troops from the country, the official said.
The US official told CNN that the meeting occurred at President Biden’s direction, which reflects the view inside the administration that Burns is the most seasoned and one of the most trusted veteran diplomats on Biden’s team.
Another official called the meeting “an exchange of views on what needs to happen to be done” by August 31.
The CIA declined to comment to CNN about the meeting.
CNN has reached out to the White House for comment.
Some more background: Baradar and then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo were among the witnesses for the US and Taliban’s signing of an historic agreement last year, which had set in motion the withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan. Former President Trump and Baradar spoke over the phone shortly after the deal was signed.
After the Taliban retook control of Kabul, Baradar, who heads the group’s political committee, had returned to Afghanistan last week after having been out of the country for 20 years.
https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/afghanistan-news-taliban-refugees-08-24-21/h_fa86fcca94f82ab682b0d9b7eca5e8ba
Taliban’s treatment of women a ‘red line’, says UN rights chief
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/un-says-credible-reports-human-rights-violations-in-afghanistan/100404540
And the Taliban’s response will be to take a very large step over the red line. The UN will then look stupid…but they’re quite used to that.
sibeen said:
Taliban’s treatment of women a ‘red line’, says UN rights chiefhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/un-says-credible-reports-human-rights-violations-in-afghanistan/100404540
And the Taliban’s response will be to take a very large step over the red line. The UN will then look stupid…but they’re quite used to that.
Is the Vice President still alive?
sibeen said:
Taliban’s treatment of women a ‘red line’, says UN rights chiefhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/un-says-credible-reports-human-rights-violations-in-afghanistan/100404540
And the Taliban’s response will be to take a very large step over the red line. The UN will then look stupid…but they’re quite used to that.
It’s only about 6 months since I found out that the UN still had some use.
But I can’t remember what it is.
mollwollfumble said:
sibeen said:
Taliban’s treatment of women a ‘red line’, says UN rights chief
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/un-says-credible-reports-human-rights-violations-in-afghanistan/100404540
And the Taliban’s response will be to take a very large step over the red line. The UN will then look stupid…but they’re quite used to that.
It’s only about 6 months since I found out that the UN still had some use.
But I can’t remember what it is.
don’t they oversee the rubber plantations supplying CHINA with stamps
SCIENCE said:
mollwollfumble said:
sibeen said:
Taliban’s treatment of women a ‘red line’, says UN rights chief
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/un-says-credible-reports-human-rights-violations-in-afghanistan/100404540
And the Taliban’s response will be to take a very large step over the red line. The UN will then look stupid…but they’re quite used to that.
It’s only about 6 months since I found out that the UN still had some use.
But I can’t remember what it is.
don’t they oversee the rubber plantations supplying CHINA with stamps
where’s Stan, to give us the elsewhere picture while the plague’s on at home
Mr Mujahid also said that working women in Afghanistan must stay at home until proper systems are in place to ensure their safety.
“Our security forces are not trained how to deal with women – how to speak to women some of them,” he said. “Until we have full security in place… we ask women to stay home.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58321849
This was all the news on the BBC last night I don’t know if your ABC has picked up on it yet.
Peak Warming Man said:
This was all the news on the BBC last night I don’t know if your ABC has picked up on it yet.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/afghanistan-female-athletes-find-refuge-in-australia/100398388
Peak Warming Man said:
This was all the news on the BBC last night I don’t know if your ABC has picked up on it yet.
I wonder where they evacuated them to?
Bogsnorkler said:
Peak Warming Man said:
This was all the news on the BBC last night I don’t know if your ABC has picked up on it yet.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/afghanistan-female-athletes-find-refuge-in-australia/100398388
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/afghanistan-women-athletes-taliban/100404250
sibeen said:
Taliban’s treatment of women a ‘red line’, says UN rights chiefhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-25/un-says-credible-reports-human-rights-violations-in-afghanistan/100404540
And the Taliban’s response will be to take a very large step over the red line. The UN will then look stupid…but they’re quite used to that.
Hans Brix, you’re breaking my baws, Hans
Bogsnorkler said:
Peak Warming Man said:
This was all the news on the BBC last night I don’t know if your ABC has picked up on it yet.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/afghanistan-female-athletes-find-refuge-in-australia/100398388
I knew I’d seen a headline about that a couple of days ago.
buffy said:
Bogsnorkler said:
Peak Warming Man said:
This was all the news on the BBC last night I don’t know if your ABC has picked up on it yet.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/afghanistan-female-athletes-find-refuge-in-australia/100398388
I knew I’d seen a headline about that a couple of days ago.
still amazing that the utterly leftwing ABC should say anything nice about the LNP Government.
https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-shariah-law-and-what-version-of-it-is-the-taliban-likely-to-implement-166490
Bogsnorkler said:
https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-shariah-law-and-what-version-of-it-is-the-taliban-likely-to-implement-166490
The next important question is whether the Taliban will follow the puritanical Salafism or a more traditional Islamic legal school?
In the 1990s, with its support of Al-Qaeda and use of harsh punishments, the Taliban appeared to follow puritanical Salafism. Their fall in 2001, Islamic State’s demise in 2019, and regression of Al-Qaeda after Osama bin Laden’s death would suggest they have learned a lesson or two.
FIIK how he comes to any conclusion that they’ve learnt anything.
sibeen said:
Bogsnorkler said:
https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-shariah-law-and-what-version-of-it-is-the-taliban-likely-to-implement-166490
The next important question is whether the Taliban will follow the puritanical Salafism or a more traditional Islamic legal school?
In the 1990s, with its support of Al-Qaeda and use of harsh punishments, the Taliban appeared to follow puritanical Salafism. Their fall in 2001, Islamic State’s demise in 2019, and regression of Al-Qaeda after Osama bin Laden’s death would suggest they have learned a lesson or two.
FIIK how he comes to any conclusion that they’ve learnt anything.
I mean I like to maintain an optimistic outlook but yeah … how about we wait for some evidence
Afghanistan’s former vice-president Amrullah Saleh accuses US of blackmail over talks with Taliban
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-26/amrullah-saleh-afghanistan-vice-president-accuses-us-of-blackmai/100405820
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-26/kabul-airport-evacuation-facing-credible-terrorist-threat/100410816
There is “very, very credible” intelligence that militants are planning an imminent attack on those gathering at Kabul airport in an attempt to flee Afghanistan, British Armed Forces minister James Heappey says. Mr Heappey confirmed that intelligence of a possible suicide bomb attack by Islamic State militants had become “much firmer”. “There is now very, very credible reporting of an imminent attack, and hence why the Foreign Office advice was changed last night, that people should not come to Kabul Airport, they should move to a safe place and await further instructions,” Mr Heappey told BBC radio. “I can only say that the threat is severe. We will do our best to protect those who are there,” he said. “There is every chance that as further reporting comes in, we may be able to change the advice and process people anew, but there is no guarantee of that.”
More to come.
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Troop Withdrawal Lasts −5 Days
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-26/kabul-airport-evacuation-facing-credible-terrorist-threat/100410816
There is “very, very credible” intelligence that militants are planning an imminent attack on those gathering at Kabul airport in an attempt to flee Afghanistan, British Armed Forces minister James Heappey says. Mr Heappey confirmed that intelligence of a possible suicide bomb attack by Islamic State militants had become “much firmer”. “There is now very, very credible reporting of an imminent attack, and hence why the Foreign Office advice was changed last night, that people should not come to Kabul Airport, they should move to a safe place and await further instructions,” Mr Heappey told BBC radio. “I can only say that the threat is severe. We will do our best to protect those who are there,” he said. “There is every chance that as further reporting comes in, we may be able to change the advice and process people anew, but there is no guarantee of that.”
More to come.
How dare they try to flee what will shortly become an Islamic paradise here on Earth?
Being blown up is too good for ‘em, i say.
captain_spalding said:
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Troop Withdrawal Lasts −5 Days
There is “very, very credible” intelligence that militants are planning an imminent attack on those gathering at Kabul airport in an attempt to flee Afghanistan, British Armed Forces minister James Heappey says. Mr Heappey confirmed that intelligence of a possible suicide bomb attack by Islamic State militants had become “much firmer”. “There is now very, very credible reporting of an imminent attack, and hence why the Foreign Office advice was changed last night, that people should not come to Kabul Airport, they should move to a safe place and await further instructions,” Mr Heappey told BBC radio. “I can only say that the threat is severe. We will do our best to protect those who are there,” he said. “There is every chance that as further reporting comes in, we may be able to change the advice and process people anew, but there is no guarantee of that.”
More to come.
How dare they try to flee what will shortly become an Islamic paradise here on Earth?
Being blown up is too good for ‘em, i say.
They Will Be Delivered To Heaven Where 432 Dancing Virgins Await Them
rolls dice
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Troop Withdrawal Lasts −5 Days
Mr Biden vowed the US would find the people responsible for suicide bombings outside Kabul’s Hamid Karzai International Airport (HKIA) in Afghanistan and said he asked the Pentagon to develop plans to strike back at them.
washes hands
…
with blood
“I have also ordered my commanders to develop operational plans to strike ISIS-K assets, leadership and facilities. We will respond with force and precision at our time, at the place we choose and the moment of our choosing,” Mr Biden said.
“We have some reason to believe we know who they are,” Mr Biden said of the bombers and gunmen involved.
He said there was no evidence they colluded with the Taliban, who now control the country.
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Troop Withdrawal Lasts −5 Days
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-26/kabul-airport-evacuation-facing-credible-terrorist-threat/100410816
There is “very, very credible” intelligence that militants are planning an imminent attack on those gathering at Kabul airport in an attempt to flee Afghanistan, British Armed Forces minister James Heappey says. Mr Heappey confirmed that intelligence of a possible suicide bomb attack by Islamic State militants had become “much firmer”. “There is now very, very credible reporting of an imminent attack, and hence why the Foreign Office advice was changed last night, that people should not come to Kabul Airport, they should move to a safe place and await further instructions,” Mr Heappey told BBC radio. “I can only say that the threat is severe. We will do our best to protect those who are there,” he said. “There is every chance that as further reporting comes in, we may be able to change the advice and process people anew, but there is no guarantee of that.”
More to come.
They had good intel.
Peak Warming Man said:
SCIENCE said:
Withdrawal − Days
More to come.
They had good intel.
nnobody could have foreseen this
Shit eh
So (rubs temples)… they are going to go back in for reprisals?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-27/daughter-of-afghan-judge-calls-for-his-evacuation/100412150
The daughter of an Afghan judge who executed and jailed Taliban operatives before the country’s capital fell last week says Australia has abandoned those who worked alongside the US-backed government.
Hamidah Haidari’s father is now in hiding in Afghanistan, after the Taliban came looking for him at their family home in Kabul.
Ms Haidari said given her father worked alongside the Western-backed government, he should be granted priority for protection.
“He has actually executed a lot of Taliban and has obviously sent them to jail and everything, and he is in hiding right now,” she said.
“The Taliban has already come to our house and climbed over the fence of our house.
“They asked our neighbours about my dad.”
Ms Haidari lives in Adelaide with her son and apart from a sister in Melbourne, her father, mother, four sisters and two brothers are still in Afghanistan…
:(
Joe seems beaten, tired.
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.
They were using suicide bombers 20 years ago, they don’t like change do they?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.
Jaysus, Tau, have a read; the suicide bombers were not Taliban.
sibeen said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.Jaysus, Tau, have a read; the suicide bombers were not Taliban.
ok, ISIS-K
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.They were using suicide bombers 20 years ago, they don’t like change do they?
Even back then, the Taliban were not using suicide bombers.
I ain’t here to sing the Taliban’s praises but they were never terrorists.
dv said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.They were using suicide bombers 20 years ago, they don’t like change do they?
Even back then, the Taliban were not using suicide bombers.
I ain’t here to sing the Taliban’s praises but they were never terrorists.
I didn’t read up properly.
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Taliban took control of KABUL Sunday Aug 15, then 2 Taliban suicide bombers attack airport Thursday Aug 26, 12 days into power. Why not some home made rockets? They’ve had 20 years to make rockets, no rockets fired yet? Not good enough Taliban.Jaysus, Tau, have a read; the suicide bombers were not Taliban.
ok, ISIS-K
No.
ISIL K
roughbarked said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:Jaysus, Tau, have a read; the suicide bombers were not Taliban.
ok, ISIS-K
No.
ISIL K
or… ISIL-KP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant_%E2%80%93_Khorasan_Province
roughbarked said:
roughbarked said:
Tau.Neutrino said:ok, ISIS-K
No.
ISIL K
or… ISIL-KP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant_%E2%80%93_Khorasan_Province
ISIL-KP (Khorasan Province)
Sort of like the Westboro Baptist Church, then?
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
roughbarked said:No.
ISIL K
or… ISIL-KP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant_%E2%80%93_Khorasan_Province
ISIL-KP (Khorasan Province)
Sort of like the Westboro Baptist Church, then?
The definition of church appears broad.
The United States has carried out a drone strike against an Islamic State “planner” in eastern Afghanistan, the military says, a day after an attack outside Kabul’s airport killed 13 US troops.
“Initial indications are that we killed the target. We know of no civilian casualties,” a US military statement said.
US Central Command said the strike killed one individual, and spokesman Navy Captain William Urban said they knew of no civilian casualties.
The airstrike fulfilled a commitment US President Joe Biden made on Thursday when he said the perpetrators of the attack would not be able to hide.
“We will hunt you down and make you pay,” he said.
Pentagon leaders told reporters on Friday that they were prepared for whatever retaliatory action the president ordered.
Reuters/AP
More to come.
—
guess Biden’s approval rating is goin’ back up
ABC News:
‘‘Go to a safe place’: Australians urged to wait for commercial flights out of Afghanistan
By political reporter Tom Lowrey
Resumed commercial flights are being relied upon as an option for getting remaining Australian citizens and v’isa holders out of Afghanistan.’
“Thank you for your patience.
Normal services should be resumed within 15 – 20 years.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
captain_spalding said:
ABC News:‘‘Go to a safe place’: Australians urged to wait for commercial flights out of Afghanistan
By political reporter Tom Lowrey
Resumed commercial flights are being relied upon as an option for getting remaining Australian citizens and v’isa holders out of Afghanistan.’“Thank you for your patience.
Normal services should be resumed within 15 – 20 years.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Yeah, that’ll work….
>“Go to a safe place”
…e.g., not Afghanistan.
Bubblecar said:
>“Go to a safe place”…e.g., not Afghanistan.
Sitting smoking ciggies on a 44 gal drum of petrol in a fireworks factory would qualify as ‘a safe place’ by comparison with the Stan right now.
Bubblecar said:
>“Go to a safe place”…e.g., not Afghanistan.
Come Mr Tally Ban, tally me banana.
Daylight come and we wanna go home.
captain_spalding said:
ABC News:‘‘Go to a safe place’: Australians urged to wait for commercial flights out of Afghanistan
By political reporter Tom Lowrey
Resumed commercial flights are being relied upon as an option for getting remaining Australian citizens and v’isa holders out of Afghanistan.’“Thank you for your patience.
Normal services should be resumed within 15 – 20 years.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
muted chuckle
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/28/politics/stuart-scheller-marine-relieved-afghanistan/index.html
Washington (CNN)US Marine Corps Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller has been relieved of command after he posted a video online questioning military leaders’ handling of the situation in Afghanistan, a Marine Corps spokesperson said Friday.
Scheller had posted a video to his Facebook page on Thursday stating: “People are upset because their senior leaders let them down and none of them are raising their hands and accepting accountability or saying, ‘we messed this up.’” The Marine officer — who served in both Afghanistan and Iraq — said in the video he was “willing to throw it all away” to publicly “demand accountability” from military leadership.
After the video was posted, Marine Corps spokesperson Maj. Jim Stenger said in a statement that Scheller had been relieved of command “due to a loss of trust and confidence in his ability to command.”
“This is obviously an emotional time for a lot of Marines, and we encourage anyone struggling right now to seek counseling or talk to a fellow Marine. There is a forum in which Marine leaders can address their disagreements with the chain of command, but it’s not social media,” Stenger said.
dv said:
“This is obviously an emotional time for a lot of Marines, and we encourage anyone struggling right now to seek counseling or talk to a fellow Marine. There is a forum in which Marine leaders can address their disagreements with the chain of command, but it’s not social media,” Stenger said.
I see gaslighting is alive and well in the US military.
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/28/politics/stuart-scheller-marine-relieved-afghanistan/index.html
Washington (CNN)US Marine Corps Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller has been relieved of command after he posted a video online questioning military leaders’ handling of the situation in Afghanistan, a Marine Corps spokesperson said Friday.
Scheller had posted a video to his Facebook page on Thursday stating: “People are upset because their senior leaders let them down and none of them are raising their hands and accepting accountability or saying, ‘we messed this up.’” The Marine officer — who served in both Afghanistan and Iraq — said in the video he was “willing to throw it all away” to publicly “demand accountability” from military leadership.
After the video was posted, Marine Corps spokesperson Maj. Jim Stenger said in a statement that Scheller had been relieved of command “due to a loss of trust and confidence in his ability to command.”
“This is obviously an emotional time for a lot of Marines, and we encourage anyone struggling right now to seek counseling or talk to a fellow Marine. There is a forum in which Marine leaders can address their disagreements with the chain of command, but it’s not social media,” Stenger said.
shouldn’t soldiers be following orders though
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/28/politics/stuart-scheller-marine-relieved-afghanistan/index.htmlWashington (CNN)US Marine Corps Lt. Col. Stuart Scheller has been relieved of command after he posted a video online questioning military leaders’ handling of the situation in Afghanistan, a Marine Corps spokesperson said Friday.
Scheller had posted a video to his Facebook page on Thursday stating: “People are upset because their senior leaders let them down and none of them are raising their hands and accepting accountability or saying, ‘we messed this up.’” The Marine officer — who served in both Afghanistan and Iraq — said in the video he was “willing to throw it all away” to publicly “demand accountability” from military leadership.
After the video was posted, Marine Corps spokesperson Maj. Jim Stenger said in a statement that Scheller had been relieved of command “due to a loss of trust and confidence in his ability to command.”
“This is obviously an emotional time for a lot of Marines, and we encourage anyone struggling right now to seek counseling or talk to a fellow Marine. There is a forum in which Marine leaders can address their disagreements with the chain of command, but it’s not social media,” Stenger said.
I can understand them being let down. The rest of the world was let down.
Would we have gone there if the outcome was to replace the Taliban with the Taliban?
Here’s an interesting comparison.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Would we have gone there if the outcome was to replace the Taliban with the Taliban?
Let’s be honest Australia is not the same country it was 400 years ago.
Also along a separate line how about replacing COVID-19 original Wuhan strain with COVID-19 less virulent holy fuck what is this strain, how’s that been going¿
SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Would we have gone there if the outcome was to replace the Taliban with the Taliban?
Let’s be honest Australia is not the same country it was 400 years ago.
Also along a separate line how about replacing COVID-19 original Wuhan strain with COVID-19
less virulentholy fuck what is this strain, how’s that been going¿
Why couldn’t the Americans say they needed more resources to finish the job? Why go into a country that’s in a mess, then create a mess, then leave it in a mess, Why couldn’t the outcome be a stable Afghanistan? If we go to war can we have concrete guarantee that the outcome will be leaving it better rather than making it worse?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Why go into a country that’s in a mess, then create a mess, then leave it in a mess
Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Why go into a country that’s in a mess, then create a mess, then leave it in a mess
Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
Fair assessment.
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Why go into a country that’s in a mess, then create a mess, then leave it in a mess
Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
Fair assessment.
How about future conditions of war, that the attacking countries leave the country stable rather than unstable?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
Fair assessment.
How about future conditions of war, that the attacking countries leave the country stable rather than unstable?
laugh out loud
SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Michael V said:
Fair assessment.
How about future conditions of war, that the attacking countries leave the country stable rather than unstable?
laugh out loud
They knew what they were doing, creating an unstable country for use as a future platform for war.
Tau.Neutrino said:
SCIENCE said:Tau.Neutrino said:
How about future conditions of war, that the attacking countries leave the country stable rather than unstable?
laugh out loud
They knew what they were doing, creating an unstable country for use as a future platform for war.
There’s not many brains in the Taliban, that’s for sure.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Why go into a country that’s in a mess, then create a mess, then leave it in a mess
Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
“we will make no distinction between terrorist and those who harbour them” was the GW Bush doctrine.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Why go into a country that’s in a mess, then create a mess, then leave it in a mess
Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
“we will make no distinction between terrorist and those who harbour them” was the GW Bush doctrine.
well seems like the USSA has half killed itself over the past decade so fair
SCIENCE said:
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:Short-term political goals.
The American population was in the mood for revenge. Revenge was most immediately obtained by attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan, known to be harbouring and supporting Al Qaeda. Add to that the fact that world viewed the Taliban regime as generally abhorrent, and it was a prime target.
Bush could not ignore the mood, or the opportunity.
The future problems could be left for future administrations.
“we will make no distinction between terrorist and those who harbour them” was the GW Bush doctrine.
well seems like the USSA has half killed itself over the past decade so fair
I think they are going to concentrate on the new cold war with China instead.
party_pants said:
SCIENCE said:
party_pants said:“we will make no distinction between terrorist and those who harbour them” was the GW Bush doctrine.
well seems like the USSA has half killed itself over the past decade so fair
I think they are going to concentrate on the new cold war with China instead.
Cold War over Global Warming ¿
we mean it’s fucking genius, and not sarcastically, they get the troops out, throw drones back in, some arsehole did it to Iran in Iraq trying to score political points, the only bullshit part is that now the other guys are in charge their approval ratings will tank for it
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-29/united-states-air-strike-kabul-targeted-isis-k/100417204
US carries out drone strike on vehicle with suspected ISIS-K suicide bombers heading for Kabul airport
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
dv said:
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
Cats and dogs first.
On the plus side they are both using the same gear so they’ll have great interoperability.
dv said:
On the plus side they are both using the same gear so they’ll have great interoperability.
United against the common enemy? The Judean Peoples Front…
furious said:
dv said:
On the plus side they are both using the same gear so they’ll have great interoperability.
United against the common enemy? The Judean Peoples Front…
Oceania
dv said:
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
More
dv said:
dv said:
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
More
Madness.
dv said:
dv said:
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
More
Even though the dogs didn’t fly cabin class they still weighed. The average dog weighs 20k. I suppose that is a western dog. Even still.
sarahs mum said:
Bubblecar said:
dv said:
dv said:
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
More
Madness.
Even though the dogs didn’t fly cabin class they still weighed. The average dog weighs 20k. I suppose that is a western dog. Even still.
and then there’s the part about how it makes him a huge hero in the UK, imagine how much less of a hero he would have been for saving dirty foreigners
sarahs mum said:
dv said:
dv said:
Look… I’m not an animal hater…
But Paul Farthing’s story is so weird. Imagine deploying to Afghanistan and what really touches your heart is the dogs who are in strife.
More
Even though the dogs didn’t fly cabin class they still weighed. The average dog weighs 20k. I suppose that is a western dog. Even still.
How many families are going to starve now this guy is taking their food?
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/30/asia/fawad-andarabi-afghan-folk-singer-killed-intl/index.html
The Taliban V2.0. A kinder, gentler theocracy.
sibeen said:
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/30/asia/fawad-andarabi-afghan-folk-singer-killed-intl/index.htmlThe Taliban V2.0. A kinder, gentler theocracy.
…while anyone’s looking.
Has there ever been a theocracy that didn’t eventually end up slaughtering its subjects/citizens.
A former US Marine’s opinion:
captain_spalding said:
A former US Marine’s opinion:
Tamb said:
captain_spalding said:
A former US Marine’s opinion:
They weren’t the first.
Some of the invaders in the history of Afghanistan include the Maurya Empire of ancient India, Alexander the Great of Macedon, Umar, an Arab Caliphate, Genghis Khan of Mongolia, Timur of Persia and Central Asia, the Mughal Empire of India, various Persian Empires, the British Empire, the Sikh Empire, the Soviet Union,…
Oh, i know that.
A’stan has been invaded something over 200 times in the last few centuries.
Shifting to Governing, Taliban Will Name Supreme Afghan Leader
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-government-leader.html
Will the World Formally Recognize the Taliban?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/world/asia/taliban-un-afghanistan-us.html
Tau.Neutrino said:
Shifting to Governing, Taliban Will Name Supreme Afghan Leader
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-government-leader.htmlWill the World Formally Recognize the Taliban?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/world/asia/taliban-un-afghanistan-us.html
How can anyone recognise a leader or even a member of parliament who never lets go of his assault rifle?
(CNN)A group of Afghan women activists staged a small protest in Taliban-controlled Kabul Friday calling for equal rights and full participation in political life, CNN has confirmed.
In spite of the risk, a group called the Women’s Political Participation Network marched on the street in front of Afghanistan’s Finance Ministry, chanting slogans and holding signs demanding involvement in the Afghan government and calling for constitutional law.
Footage showed a brief confrontation between a Taliban guard and some of the women, and a man’s voice could be heard saying, “Go away!” before chanting resumed.
The gathering was relatively small — video of the scene livestreamed by the group showed just a few dozen demonstrators — but represented an unusual public challenge to Taliban rule.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/03/asia/kabul-afghan-women-protest-intl/index.html
Afghan resistance fighters dispute Taliban’s claim to have taken last holdout province of Panjshir
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-06/taliban-claim-panjshir-last-holdout-province-resistance/100438584
The Taliban say they have taken control of Panjshir, the last province holding out following the stunning capture of Kabul and the chaotic withdrawal of foreign troops.
wait we thought MONEY was CAPITALISM and it shouldn’t work, the only way to achieve REGIME CHANGE is to start a WAR wait
but then speaking of wars
scratches head
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
I am with our neighbouring En Zed PM who lives across the Tasman.
Do not give these people a place to immortalise their name.
Trash can for rubbish.
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
LOL
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
I’m sure that his press secretary has good selection of photographic portraits. Possibly some hard-hat/hi-vis pics of hm opening a new execution yard or something.
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
Bugger.
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
I love the accuracy of his height – 5’7” – and the vagueness of his date of birth – circa 1973 to 1980.
buffy said:
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
I love the accuracy of his height – 5’7” – and the vagueness of his date of birth – circa 1973 to 1980.
Even I didn’t spot that.
Thanks for the observance.
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
dv said:
This chap is near the top of the FBI’s most wanted list, with a 10 million dollar reward for information leading to his arrest.
He’s now the Afghan Minister of the Interior so it should be easy to get some better photos of him from press conferences and stuff.
I love the accuracy of his height – 5’7” – and the vagueness of his date of birth – circa 1973 to 1980.
Even I didn’t spot that.
Thanks for the observance.
It’s like the age of the universe or the number of BoJo’s kids, you have to give error bars
dv said:
roughbarked said:
buffy said:I love the accuracy of his height – 5’7” – and the vagueness of his date of birth – circa 1973 to 1980.
Even I didn’t spot that.
Thanks for the observance.
It’s like the age of the universe or the number of BoJo’s kids, you have to give error bars
:)
KABUL, Afghanistan — It was the last known missile fired by the United States in its 20-year war in Afghanistan, and the military called it a “righteous strike” — a drone attack after hours of surveillance on Aug. 29 against a vehicle that American officials thought contained an ISIS bomb and posed an imminent threat to troops at Kabul’s airport.
But a New York Times investigation of video evidence, along with interviews with more than a dozen of the driver’s co-workers and family members in Kabul, raises doubts about the U.S. version of events, including whether explosives were present in the vehicle, whether the driver had a connection to ISIS, and whether there was a second explosion after the missile struck the car.
Military officials said they did not know the identity of the car’s driver when the drone fired, but deemed him suspicious because of how they interpreted his activities that day, saying that he possibly visited an ISIS safe house and, at one point, loaded what they thought could be explosives into the car.
Times reporting has identified the driver as Zemari Ahmadi, a longtime worker for a U.S. aid group. The evidence suggests that his travels that day actually involved transporting colleagues to and from work. And an analysis of video feeds showed that what the military may have seen was Mr. Ahmadi and a colleague loading canisters of water into his trunk to bring home to his family.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/world/asia/us-air-strike-drone-kabul-afghanistan-isis.html
《《
As of July 27, 2018, there were 2,372 United States military deaths and 4 Department of Defense civilian deaths in the War in Afghanistan. 1,856 of these deaths have been the result of hostile action. 320 American servicemembers have also been wounded in action during the war. In addition, there were 1,720 U.S. civilian contractor fatalities, for a total of 4,096 Americans killed during the war.
》》
This seems a phenomenally low wounded:killed ratio
https://theintercept.com/2021/08/26/afghanistan-america-failures/
dv said:
https://theintercept.com/2021/08/26/afghanistan-america-failures/
so they were having the intended effect
meanwhile elsewhere
Foreign Minister Marise Payne on Monday announced Australia would be contributing $100 million in humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. “This builds on our $1.5 billion expenditure for Afghanistan’s development over the last 20 years,” Senator Payne said.
—
Go In Guns Blazing And Spend $75 Million Per Year
Let The Taliban Take Over And Give Them $100 Million
Nice
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Minister Marise Payne on Monday announced Australia would be contributing $100 million in humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. “This builds on our $1.5 billion expenditure for Afghanistan’s development over the last 20 years,” Senator Payne said.—
Go In Guns Blazing And Spend $75 Million Per Year
Let The Taliban Take Over And Give Them $100 Million
Nice
Keeping up with inflation, plus a bit added on for them taking over the admin tasks.
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Minister Marise Payne on Monday announced Australia would be contributing $100 million in humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. “This builds on our $1.5 billion expenditure for Afghanistan’s development over the last 20 years,” Senator Payne said.—
Go In Guns Blazing And Spend $75 Million Per Year
Let The Taliban Take Over And Give Them $100 Million
Nice
What a shit show it ended up
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Minister Marise Payne on Monday announced Australia would be contributing $100 million in humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. “This builds on our $1.5 billion expenditure for Afghanistan’s development over the last 20 years,” Senator Payne said.—
Go In Guns Blazing And Spend $75 Million Per Year
Let The Taliban Take Over And Give Them $100 Million
Nice
What a shit show it ended up
captain_spalding said:
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:
Foreign Minister Marise Payne on Monday announced Australia would be contributing $100 million in humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. “This builds on our $1.5 billion expenditure for Afghanistan’s development over the last 20 years,” Senator Payne said.—
Go In Guns Blazing And Spend $75 Million Per Year
Let The Taliban Take Over And Give Them $100 Million
Nice
What a shit show it ended up
True, Possible worse in fact, no one to defend the populace now, not even a corrupt poor excuse for a government and women got a taste of freedom (long time coming) and will likely lose it and probably their lives for asking for basic decency.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/taliban-ban-girls-from-secondary-education-in-afghanistan
Who could have possible seen this coming?
sibeen said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/taliban-ban-girls-from-secondary-education-in-afghanistanWho could have possible seen this coming?
sibeen said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/taliban-ban-girls-from-secondary-education-in-afghanistanWho could have possible seen this coming?
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
sibeen said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/taliban-ban-girls-from-secondary-education-in-afghanistan
Who could have possible seen this coming?
well we hear just a few hundred kilometres down the Wakhan there are plenty of educational facilities waiting for students
dv said:
They’ve let the outside influences of the insanity of wahhabism torch their culture, unfortunately many other muslim nations have also been afflicted.
sibeen said:
dv said:
They’ve let the outside influences of the insanity of wahhabism torch their culture, unfortunately many other muslim nations have also been afflicted.
One good thing about the end of the oil era is that Saudi’s influence will wane
The flag of Afghanistan (Pashto: د افغانستان بیرغ; Dari: پرچم افغانستان) is currently a disputed topic between the de facto Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and the de jure Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. The country has had 25 flags since the first flag when the Hotak dynasty was established in 1709. During the 20th century alone, Afghanistan went through 19 national flags, more than any other country during that time period, and most of them had the colors black, red, and green.
Following the Fall of Kabul in 2021, there are two entities claiming to be the legitimate government of Afghanistan, each using a different flag. The Taliban-controlled Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, which controls most of the country, uses a white field with a black Shahada. The internationally recognized Islamic Republic of Afghanistan uses the black, red, and green tricolour with the national emblem centered in white. This flag was used by the Afghan delegation at the 2020 Summer Paralympics which took place between 25 August and 5 September, after the fall of Kabul.
The black color represents its troubled 19th century history as a protected state, the red color represents the blood of those who fought for independence (specifically, the Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1919), and the green represents hope and prosperity for the future. Some have alternatively interpreted the black to represent history, the red to represent progress, and the green to represent either agricultural prosperity or Islam.
The tricolor was supposedly inspired by the Afghan King Amanullah Khan when visiting Europe with his wife in 1928. The original horizontal tricolor design was based on that of the flag of Germany.
Almost every Afghan tricolor flag since 1928 has had the Emblem of Afghanistan in the center. Almost every emblem has had a mosque in it, which first appeared in 1901, and wheat, first appearing in 1928.
The last tricolor flag took its current form in 2002 with modifications later on in 2004 and 2013, with some variants containing differing colored emblems.
Following the restoration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan after the Fall of Kabul in 2021, protests took place in Jalalabad and other cities, where protesters were seen waving Afghan tricolor flags protesting its removal in defiance of Taliban rule, due to the reinstatement of the white Shahada flag and the abolishment of the former black, red, and green tricolor flag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Afghanistan
dv said:
sibeen said:
dv said:
They’ve let the outside influences of the insanity of wahhabism torch their culture, unfortunately many other muslim nations have also been afflicted.
One good thing about the end of the oil era is that Saudi’s influence will wane
Yes, they’ll be able to spend their days cutting each other’s hands and heads off willy-nilly.
And no-one will give a hoot.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
sibeen said:They’ve let the outside influences of the insanity of wahhabism torch their culture, unfortunately many other muslim nations have also been afflicted.
One good thing about the end of the oil era is that Saudi’s influence will wane
Yes, they’ll be able to spend their days cutting each other’s hands and heads off willy-nilly.
And no-one will give a hoot.
I still hold out hope that one day the people of these countries might think to themselves: “Well, I suppose our critics are right – we don’t really have to live this way and it is all a bit nasty and primitive. Let’s give the Imams the boot and see what life has to offer beyond Islam.”
Bubblecar said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:One good thing about the end of the oil era is that Saudi’s influence will wane
Yes, they’ll be able to spend their days cutting each other’s hands and heads off willy-nilly.
And no-one will give a hoot.
I still hold out hope that one day the people of these countries might think to themselves: “Well, I suppose our critics are right – we don’t really have to live this way and it is all a bit nasty and primitive. Let’s give the Imams the boot and see what life has to offer beyond Islam.”
Face it. If Allah doesn’t help them do anything other than be bad at supplying virgins…
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
roughbarked said:
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
I’d like to take the Taliban leadership down sideshow alley.
The Bearded Lady would make their heads explode.
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
I’d like to take the Taliban leadership down sideshow alley.
The Bearded Lady would make their heads explode.
I’d fit in as far as that goes, being a bearded monstrosity.
Bubblecar said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:One good thing about the end of the oil era is that Saudi’s influence will wane
Yes, they’ll be able to spend their days cutting each other’s hands and heads off willy-nilly.
And no-one will give a hoot.
I still hold out hope that one day the people of these countries might think to themselves: “Well, I suppose our critics are right – we don’t really have to live this way and it is all a bit nasty and primitive. Let’s give the Imams the boot and see what life has to offer beyond Islam.”
What a hopeful person you are.
It’s all about power and privilege. Take power, get privilege. Keep privilege by keeping power.
roughbarked said:
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
It wont be long before they ban everything.
Everything Banned.
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
captain_spalding said:Yes, they’ll be able to spend their days cutting each other’s hands and heads off willy-nilly.
And no-one will give a hoot.
I still hold out hope that one day the people of these countries might think to themselves: “Well, I suppose our critics are right – we don’t really have to live this way and it is all a bit nasty and primitive. Let’s give the Imams the boot and see what life has to offer beyond Islam.”
What a hopeful person you are.
It’s all about power and privilege. Take power, get privilege. Keep privilege by keeping power.
I saw a link which has since disappeared? It spoke of how the Afghans are attempting to show how colourful their clothes and lives were, before the Taliban made women wear black.
Tau.Neutrino said:
roughbarked said:
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
It wont be long before they ban everything.
Everything Banned.
Keeping your head on? Banned!
roughbarked said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
roughbarked said:
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
It wont be long before they ban everything.
Everything Banned.
Keeping your head on? Banned!
Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club? Banned!
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:I still hold out hope that one day the people of these countries might think to themselves: “Well, I suppose our critics are right – we don’t really have to live this way and it is all a bit nasty and primitive. Let’s give the Imams the boot and see what life has to offer beyond Islam.”
What a hopeful person you are.
It’s all about power and privilege. Take power, get privilege. Keep privilege by keeping power.
I saw a link which has since disappeared? It spoke of how the Afghans are attempting to show how colourful their clothes and lives were, before the Taliban made women wear black.
Neophyte said:
roughbarked said:
Tau.Neutrino said:It wont be long before they ban everything.
Everything Banned.
Keeping your head on? Banned!
Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club? Banned!
:)
Neophyte said:
roughbarked said:
Tau.Neutrino said:It wont be long before they ban everything.
Everything Banned.
Keeping your head on? Banned!
Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club? Banned!
Michael V said:
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:What a hopeful person you are.
It’s all about power and privilege. Take power, get privilege. Keep privilege by keeping power.
I saw a link which has since disappeared? It spoke of how the Afghans are attempting to show how colourful their clothes and lives were, before the Taliban made women wear black.
Tamb said:
Neophyte said:
roughbarked said:Keeping your head on? Banned!
Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club? Banned!
I don’t see how they can be lonely hearts when they can rape anyone they like.
Because the women they rape are then stoned to death for adultery.
btm said:
Tamb said:
Neophyte said:Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club? Banned!
I don’t see how they can be lonely hearts when they can rape anyone they like.Because the women they rape are then stoned to death for adultery.
They need to be punished.
“According to Sharia law, Islam is absolutely against this,” said Afghan Muslim cleric Abdul Raouf.“Not only is it banned by Islamic Sharia law, but if we apply Sharia law and to take this issue to justice, these girls should be punished.”
I can hgardly tell these days if we’re talking about afghanistan or texas. I guess afghanistan cos texas is white people.
Bogsnorkler said:
I can hgardly tell these days if we’re talking about afghanistan or texas. I guess afghanistan cos texas is white people.
Tamb said:
Bogsnorkler said:
I can hgardly tell these days if we’re talking about afghanistan or texas. I guess afghanistan cos texas is white people.
And stoneings are relatively few in Texas.
Nah, heaps of people get stoned everyday in Texas.
Bogsnorkler said:
I can hgardly tell these days if we’re talking about afghanistan or texas. I guess afghanistan cos texas is white people.
May be even more child brides in Texas as well.
Dark Orange said:
Bogsnorkler said:
I can hgardly tell these days if we’re talking about afghanistan or texas. I guess afghanistan cos texas is white people.
May be even more child brides in Texas as well.
Tau.Neutrino said:
roughbarked said:
Taliban puts barbers out of work. Shaving beards is banned.
It wont be long before they ban everything.
Everything Banned.
To Taliban
A delicate balance
In power, the Taliban’s divisions are coming to the fore
Ideological differences and bored fighters are creating headaches for its leaders
Oct 2nd 2021
ISLAMABAD
Afghanistan’s presidential palace has seen its fair share of bad-tempered quarrels between politicians. In recent years the castle-like building in the centre of Kabul was the site of bitter spats between the irascible former president, Ashraf Ghani, and his rival, Abdullah Abdullah. Mr Ghani is said to have taken anger-management classes. At one point he and Dr Abdullah held rival inauguration ceremonies as they disagreed over who should rule. Yet even by those fractious standards, the Taliban’s recent bust-up seems to have been heated.
The trouble kicked off in mid-September, just days after the Taliban announced the make-up of their interim government. Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, one of the group’s founders and now a deputy prime minister, is said to have been dismayed that the cabinet was stuffed with conservatives from the old guard and military hardliners from the Haqqani network, a leading faction in the Taliban’s tapestry of allegiances. Khalil Haqqani, minister for refugees and a senior member of the Haqqani clan, countered that it was those very military hardliners who had delivered victory and should therefore be rewarded. Most accounts concur that the disagreement descended into angry words. Some suggest it went further: coming to scuffles, punches and even gunfire as the leaders’ retinues brawled. Mr Baradar, who is seen as one of the movement’s moderates, relatively speaking, lay low in Kandahar for a few days, leading to speculation that he had been wounded.
The Taliban deny there was ever any clash. Mr Baradar is now back in Kabul conducting official business and apparently unhurt, though he seems to have lost the argument. But the reports shone fresh light on the internal politics of a group whose leadership has for decades operated in the shadows, and whose dynamics could be outlined only imperfectly by intelligence agencies and Talibanologists.
Disputes like the palace row should come as no surprise considering the diversity within the Taliban, says Antonio Giustozzi of King’s College London. As the group prospered and grew beyond its roots, it swallowed, attracted or co-opted all sorts of militant networks and commanders, of which the Haqqani clan is only the best known. That resulted not in a Maoist-style centrally controlled insurgency, but a coalition of commanders bound by some core beliefs.
The Taliban’s secrecy during their 20-year insurgency hid some of this disagreement, but a notable flare-up occurred in 2015, two years after the death of the movement’s original leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar. The appointment of his successor, Mullah Akhtar Mansour, who has since been killed, was rejected by several senior figures including Omar’s son. The Taliban were briefly in turmoil as competing factions jockeyed for power. There are also continuing ideological divisions. These vary from how heavy-handed the group should be in enforcing its social policies to whether to cut ties with foreign jihadists such as al-Qaeda, whom many fighters consider comrades. Whether to work with other domestic political forces is also a thorny topic.
Given these differences, what is perhaps most remarkable is not the Taliban’s feuding, but their cohesion. “Their greatest skill,” says Mr Giustozzi, is to “keep all of this together despite constant friction and constant argument.” That stems from hard work, says Haroun Rahimi of the American University of Afghanistan. The group might be known for issuing authoritarian edicts to Afghans, but it goes out of its way to seek consensus internally. There is deference to clerical seniority and battlefield experience, but controversial matters are laboriously debated in large councils known as shuras. Factions such as the Haqqanis have been allowed some latitude in how they operate. Pakistan’s security forces are also thought to have mediated on occasion.
Such deliberation may salve tensions, but it can also make the organisation conservative and indecisive. Policies are pitched at the group’s lowest common denominator to preserve concord. That makes it difficult for the Taliban to change. Indeed early policy moves appear to show no great evolution, despite vows that the Taliban had moved on from the repressive regime they ran in the 1990s. Harsh sharia punishments such as public hanging and chopping off thieves’ hands are back. Women are being purged from the workplace. Such policies may explain why even Pakistan, which formally recognised the Taliban the last time around, has not yet done so again (see box).
Power has brought new challenges to the Taliban’s internal order. During the 1990s, lingering domestic resistance, which they never completely vanquished, helped maintain unity. But the Taliban now rule the entire country, almost uncontested. Thousands of fighters steeped in a culture of militancy are twiddling their thumbs. Not every commander will win a position in the new government. There is little money for those who do. “I think that disagreements within the top leadership are distracting us from the pressure that the Taliban movement is under from below, from their fighters,” says Mr Rahimi.
Tamim Asey, who heads the Institute of War and Peace Studies, a think-tank in the Afghan capital, describes what he calls “jihadi anarchism”. The Taliban’s branches in some provinces show signs of questioning the writ of Kabul. “The transformation from a militia to a government is costing them, and it appears to be painful,” he says. Some fighters are returning to civilian life. Others appear nostalgic for their campaigning days and admit peace is a bit of a drag. “Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to become a martyr,” moans a Talib guarding the shuttered British embassy.
The new defence minister recently rebuked fighters for their indiscipline, complaining of reprisals, which are forbidden under the Taliban’s declared amnesty for officials of the former regime. He also admonished footsoldiers for inadvertently giving away secrets as they pose for selfies in ministries. “Such hanging out and taking snaps and videos will not help you in this world, or in the hereafter,” he said.
Hints of splits within the Taliban might once have gladdened the hearts of the Western spooks and soldiers arrayed against them. No longer. Serious divisions could pitch the country into civil war, exacerbating a humanitarian crisis and prompting a surge in refugees. A rift would also encourage defections to other militant groups and embolden terrorists like Islamic State. For now, at least, even the Taliban’s erstwhile enemies are hoping the group can keep it together.
https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/in-power-the-talibans-divisions-are-coming-to-the-fore?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-04/bomb-targets-taliban-mosque-in-kabul-civilians-dead/100511336
The bomb targeted the sprawling Eidgah Mosque in the Afghanistan capital where a memorial service was being held for the mother of Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid, who later tweeted the attack had claimed civilian lives.
See the Taliban have learnt Glorious Western Tactics, the use of false flag operations to paint targets on the Islamic State enemy, when in fact they are role modelling what to do about memorial services for women who must have no rights under Taliban rule.
Gee, let’s see,
Pakistani Information Minister Fawad Chaudhry said direct engagement with the Taliban was the only way to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe, and called for the release of billions of dollars worth of Afghan assets that have been frozen overseas.
“Are we going to push Afghanistan into chaos or are we going to try and stabilise the country?” Mr Chaudhry said.
that’s a hard one,
we wonder,
what’s 20 years been good for,
any other cases of pushing chaos in history ¿
Better Than Dying Of COVID-19 Vaccination
At least 15 people have been killed and 34 wounded after two explosions followed by gunfire hit Afghanistan’s biggest military hospital in Kabul, a Taliban security official said.
The explosions took place at the entrance of the 400-bed Sardar Mohammad Daud Khan hospital in central Kabul.
Interior ministry spokesman Qari Saeed Khosty said security forces had been sent to the area,
There was no official confirmation of casualty numbers but a Taliban security official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said there were at least 15 dead and 34 wounded.
How To Supply Weapons To The Cage Guards Caging The Dirty ASIAN Enemy While Pretending You Didn’t Mean To
