Date: 8/10/2021 12:08:24
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1800507
Subject: The New Hydrogen Economy

Climate change and innovation
Hydrogen’s moment is here at last
After decades of doubts the gas is coming of age

Oct 9th 2021

Hydrogen has been controversial ever since the tragedy of the Hindenburg, an airship filled with it that went down in flames in 1937. Boosters say that the gas is a low-carbon miracle which can power cars and homes. The hydrogen economy, they hope, will redraw the energy map. Sceptics note that several hydrogen investment drives since the 1970s have ended in tears as the gas’s shortcomings were exposed. As we explain, the reality lies in between. Hydrogen technologies could eliminate perhaps a tenth of today’s greenhouse-gas emissions by 2050. That is a sliver—but, considering the scale of the energy transition, a crucial and lucrative one.

Hydrogen is not a primary source of energy like oil or coal. It is best thought of as an energy carrier, akin to electricity, and as a means of storage, like a battery. It has to be manufactured. Low-carbon energy sources such as renewables and nuclear power can be used to separate water (H2O) into its constituents of oxygen and hydrogen. This is inefficient and expensive, but costs are falling. Hydrogen can also be made from dirty fossil fuels but this emits a lot of pollution unless it is coupled with technologies that capture carbon and sequester it. Hydrogen is flammable and bulky compared with many fuels. The implacable laws of thermodynamics mean that converting primary energy into hydrogen and then hydrogen into usable power leads to waste.

All this explains the gas’s tricky history. The oil shocks of the 1970s led to research into hydrogen technologies but they never went far. In the 1980s the Soviet Union even flew a hydrogen-powered passenger jet—the maiden flight lasted just 21 minutes.

Today climate change is causing another wave of enthusiasm. More than 350 big projects are under way and cumulative investment could reach $500bn by 2030. Morgan Stanley, a bank, reckons that annual sales of hydrogen could be worth $600bn by 2050. That is up from $150bn of sales today, which come mainly from industrial processes, including making fertilisers. India will soon stage auctions for hydrogen and Chile is holding tenders for its production on public lands. Over a dozen countries including Britain, France, Germany, Japan and South Korea have national hydrogen plans.

Amid the excitement, it is worth being clear about what hydrogen can and cannot do. Japanese and South Korean firms are keen to sell cars using hydrogen fuel cells, but battery cars are roughly twice as energy efficient. Some European countries hope to pipe hydrogen into homes, but heat pumps are more effective and some pipes cannot handle the gas safely. Some big energy firms and petrostates want to use natural gas to make hydrogen without capturing the associated carbon effectively, but that does not eliminate emissions.

Instead, hydrogen can help in niche markets, involving complex chemical processes and high temperatures that are hard to achieve with electricity. Steel firms, spewing roughly 8% of global emissions, rely on coking coal and blast furnaces that wind power cannot replace but which hydrogen can, using a process known as direct reduction. Hybrit, a Swedish consortium, sold the world’s first green steel made this way in August.

Another niche is commercial transport, particularly for journeys beyond the scope of batteries. Hydrogen lorries can beat battery-powered rivals with faster refuelling, more room for cargo and a longer range. Cummins, an American company, is betting on them. Fuels derived from hydrogen may also be useful in aviation and shipping. Alstom, a French firm, is running hydrogen-powered locomotives on European tracks.

Last, hydrogen can be used as a material to store and transport energy in bulk. Renewable grids struggle when the wind dies or it is dark. Batteries can help, but if renewable power is converted to hydrogen, it can be stored cheaply for long periods and converted to electricity on demand. A power plant in Utah plans to store the gas in caverns to supply California. Sunny and windy places that lack transmission links can export clean energy as hydrogen. Australia, Chile and Morocco hope to “ship sunshine” to the world.

With so much money piling into hydrogen the list of uses for it may expand. Much of the work is up to the private sector but governments can do their bit. One task is to crack down on greenwashing: hydrogen made from dirty fuels without high-quality carbon capture will not help the climate. New rules are needed to measure and disclose the life-cycle emissions arising from producing hydrogen and, given that it will be traded across borders, these need international agreement.

Rainmakers move in
Government should also encourage hubs where different hydrogen users cluster, minimising the need to duplicate infrastructure. These are already emerging in Humberside in Britain and Rotterdam in the Netherlands. Hydrogen has its limitations, but it can play a vital role in bringing about cleaner energy.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/10/09/hydrogens-moment-is-here-at-last?

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 12:26:23
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1800508
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

A very big balancing act
Creating the new hydrogen economy is a massive undertaking
It is also a delicate one

Oct 9th 2021
NEW YORK

Today’s hydrogen business is, in global terms, reasonably small, very dirty and completely vital. Some 90m tonnes of the stuff are produced each year, providing revenues of over $150bn—approaching those of ExxonMobil, an oil and gas company. This is done almost entirely by burning fossil fuels with air and steam—a process which uses up 6% of the world’s natural gas and 2% of its coal and emits more than 800m tonnes of carbon dioxide, putting the industry’s emissions on the same level as those of Germany.

The vital nature of this comes from one of the subsequent uses of the gas. As well as being used to process oil in refineries and to produce methanol for use in plastics, hydrogen is also, crucially, used for the production of almost all the world’s industrial ammonia. Ammonia is the main ingredient in the artificial fertilisers which account for a significant part of the world’s crop yields. Without it, agricultural productivity would plummet and hundreds of millions would face starvation.

Tomorrow’s hydrogen business, according to green-policy planners around the world, will be vital in a different way: as a means of decarbonising the parts of the economy that other industrial transformations cannot reach, and thus allowing countries to achieve their stated goal of stabilising the climate. But for that vital goal to be met everything else about the industry has to change. It can no longer stay small. Morgan Stanley, an investment bank, reckons that, if governments take their green commitments seriously, today’s market could increase more than five-fold to over 500m tonnes by 2050 as these new applications grow (see chart 1). And it has to become clean, cutting its carbon-dioxide emissions to zero.

Clean hydrogen is quite plausible. The current method of making it from fossil fuels could be combined with technology which separates out the carbon dioxide given off and stores it away underground, an option known as carbon capture and storage (ccs). Alternatively, fossil fuels could be taken out of the process altogether. Electricity generated from renewables or some other clean source could be used to tear water molecules apart, thus liberating their constituent hydrogen and oxygen, a process called electrolysis.

One way to make these technologies cheap quickly would be with a carbon price high enough to make the current industry adopt them. That looks highly unlikely. In its absence governments are trying to spur demand for clean-hydrogen capacity through industrial policy and subsidy, rather as they spurred the growth of renewables. As the European Union’s hydrogen strategy puts it, “From 2030 onwards and towards 2050, renewable hydrogen technologies should reach maturity and be deployed at large scale to reach all hard-to-decarbonise sectors.” Forcing the industry to the level of maturity which will allow that deployment is set to soak up $100bn-150bn in public money around the world in the decade to 2030. Some $11bn of that will be spent this year, according to Bloombergnef, a data company.

The problem with all this is that hydrogen is not like renewable electricity, the green transformation it seeks to build on. Green electricity helps the climate simply by replacing dirty electricity. For the most part hydrogen helps the climate only when used for new purposes and in new kit. For companies to build or purchase that kit, they need to be sure there will be plentiful and affordable clean hydrogen. For companies to produce clean hydrogen in bulk, they need to know that there will be users to sell it to. That is the rationale for public money being pumped in to prime both supply and demand.

The Hydrogen Council, an industry consortium, reckons some 350 big projects are under way globally to develop clean-hydrogen production, hydrogen-distribution facilities and industrial plants which will use hydrogen for processes which now use fossil fuels (see map). They will have electricity demands in the tens and hundreds of gigawatts, on a par with those of large countries, and are slated to receive $500bn of public and private investment between now and 2030. That expenditure could end up embarrassing governments and enraging shareholders if today’s high expectations do not pan out.

Hydrogen had its enthusiasts long before climate change became an issue. Its appeal was threefold. It is very energy-dense: burning a kilogram of it provides 2.6 times more energy than burning a kilogram of natural gas. When burned in air it produces none of the sulphates or carbon monoxide through which fossil fuels damage air quality both outdoors and in, though it does produce some oxides of nitrogen; when used in a fuel cell, a device that uses the reaction between hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity without combustion, it produces nothing but water. And because it can be made by electrolysis, or from coal, it was held to free its consumers from the tyranny of oil producers—an advantage which, after the oil shocks of the 1970s, accounted for the first serious spurt of interest in hydrogen on the part of governments, as opposed to maverick visionaries.

The fact that the enthusiasm dates back so far, though, has become an energy industry joke: “Hydrogen is the fuel of the future—and it always will be.” The problem is that there is no natural source of hydrogen; on Earth, most of it is bound up with other molecules like those of fossil fuels, or biomass, or water. The laws of thermodynamics dictate that making hydrogen from one of these precursors will always require putting more energy in than you will get out when you use the hydrogen. That is why hydrogen is today used for processes where chemically adding hydrogen atoms to things is of the essence, such as the manufacture of ammonia for fertilisers and explosives. Only in very niche applications, such as the highest-performance rocket motors, is it burned as a fuel.

Two paths you can go by
The reason that the old joke now looks set to lose its punchline is that even with lots of clean electricity—a huge challenge in itself, but also a sine qua non for deep decarbonisation—there are parts of the economy which currently look likely to resist electrification. Windmills and Teslas alone are not enough to save the world.

Energy pundits have taken to describing the emissions-free hydrogen industry they imagine meeting these very-hard-to-electrify needs with the help of a conceptual pantone chart. Today’s high-emissions hydrogen is known as grey, if made with natural gas, or black, if made with coal. The same technologies with added ccs are known as blue. The product of electrolysers running off renewable energy is deemed green; that of electrolysers which use nuclear power is pink. Hydrogen produced by pyrolysis—simply heating methane until the hydrogen departs, leaving solid carbon behind—is turquoise.

At present, grey hydrogen costs about $1 a kilogram—the cost depends largely on the natural-gas price. Add colour, and you add a premium. No one is yet making blue hydrogen at scale, but when they start doing so the costs will probably be double those for the grey. Green hydrogen, meanwhile, costs over $5/kg in the West. In China, which typically uses alkaline electrolysers, cheaper but less capable than those preferred in the West, prices can be lower.

In June America’s Department of Energy unveiled a “Hydrogen Shot” initiative that aims to slash the cost of green, pink, turquoise or blue hydrogen by roughly four-fifths to $1/kg by 2030—a decline similar to those seen in the solar panel and battery businesses. It will benefit from a number of following winds.

The first is the continuing decline in the cost of renewable electricity. This matters because electricity typically makes up most of the cost of electrolysed hydrogen. The second is that electrolysers are getting better and cheaper.

Bloom Energy, an American company which first came to prominence in the abortive hydrogen boom of the 2000s, recently unveiled a solid-oxide electrolyser which it reckons could be 15-45% more efficient than rival products, in part because it operates at a very high temperature. Technology based on proton-exchange membranes (pems) is also getting better. The promise of big hydrogen projects has also made it plausible to design and build much larger electrolysers than have been seen before, which brings down the cost per kilogram.

Prices will fall as a result of growing experience, just as they have in the solar sector. Today the world has about three gigawatts (gw) of electrolyser capacity—a gigawatt being the power output of a nuclear plant or a very large solar farm. McKinsey, a consultancy, expects that to grow to over 100gw of capacity by 2030. Bernd Heid, one of the company’s experts in the field, reckons this scaling up could in itself cut the cost per gigawatt of capacity by 65-75%. In short, a grown-up and dynamic industry is emerging out of a business which until recently bordered on the artisanal.

itm Power, a British maker of electrolyser equipment, has seen its tender pipeline more than double in the past year. The firm raised £172m ($226m at the time) last year to expand capacity to 2.5gw per year. Graham Cooley, its boss, says his firm “now has a blueprint for a gigawatt factory, we can cut and paste”. His firm is involved with Siemens Gamesa, a turbine-maker, in a big “hydrogen hub” to be built on the shores of Britain’s Humber estuary.

A sign on the wall
As a result of these forces, the price of hydrogen made from renewable sources is plunging, and seems likely to keep doing so. Bloombergnef predicts the price of green hydrogen using pem electrolysis could fall to just $2 per kg by 2030, making it competitive with blue hydrogen (see chart 2). Morgan Stanley goes significantly further, arguing that at the very best locations for renewables in America, green hydrogen will be able to match grey hydrogen’s $1/kg “in 2-3 years”.

The markets that will matter for green, blue and pink hydrogen will be those where they offer a clear advantage over other non-fossil-fuel-based approaches, most notably renewable electricity. One of those is in the electricity sector itself. This month the New York Power Authority, a utility, is starting a pilot project in which green hydrogen made from hydroelectric power is blended into natural gas, in concentrations up to roughly 30%, to generate electricity from a normal gas turbine.

This looks like thermodynamic nonsense, as the amount of electricity produced by burning hydrogen in a turbine can never be as much as the amount that was used to make it; feeding the energy used to power the electrolyser directly into the grid would provide more kilowatt-hours. But not all kilowatt-hours are equal. Sometimes renewables produce electricity in excess, driving its price down to zero or even, on occasion, below—there are some situations when people get paid to take electricity off the grid, or charged for producing it. In a system with a carbon price it could make sense to use green hydrogen produced when electricity is cheap to lower the cost of meeting supply with gas turbines when electricity is dear.

The same also holds if the hydrogen is grey but the hydrogen producer does not have to pay the price of its emissions. That provides no environmental benefit—the net emissions are higher, even though the emissions from the power plant are lower. Nevertheless some argue, possibly sincerely, that it is a way of increasing demand for hydrogen and thus priming the market for a greener future.

Hydrogen is not the only way to balance the times and places where electricity is in surplus with those where it is in high demand; large interconnected grids help a lot, as does battery storage and smart-grid technology that reduces loads when necessary. But for long-term storage that can deal with differences from season to season and even year to year, hydrogen looks better than any of its competitors.

An intriguing project under way in Utah involving the American arm of Mitsubishi, a Japanese conglomerate, will make hydrogen from local renewables, store it in nearby salt caverns and use it as a fuel to power a giant turbine producing clean electricity that will ultimately reach Los Angeles. Longer term, pure hydrogen could be sourced from far away. Marco Alverà, boss of Italy’s Snam, one of the world’s largest pipeline operators, and author of a recent book on hydrogen, believes green hydrogen can be shipped from Tunisia to Bavaria economically using a mix of existing and new pipelines. Australia and Chile are hoping to export hydrogen made from abundant local solar energy by ship.

Another market where hydrogen has an apparent edge over renewable electricity is steel. Coking coal is integral to today’s steelmaking, which accounts for about 8% of greenhouse-gas emissions; it provides not just the heat needed for the process but also the chemically necessary carbon. An alternative process, called direct-reduction, uses hydrogen to do much of the chemical work that carbon does in current smelters. ArcelorMittal, a European steel giant, recently committed $10bn to slashing greenhouse-gas emissions and is looking to hydrogen as a way to do it. US Steel has formed a partnership with Norway’s Equinor, an oil and gas company which is a ccs pioneer and now moving into blue hydrogen. Hybrit, a Swedish industrial coalition, delivered the world’s first batch of green steel to a customer in August.

Industrial processes like chemical reactors, cement kilns and glassmaking also require high temperatures, a requirement not always easily provided by electricity. In a recent report on the hydrogen economy the International Energy Agency (iea), a think-tank operated by rich-world governments, notes that hydrogen can directly replace natural gas in some processes already. Ammonia can also sometimes be “dropped in” as an easy substitute.

Crying for leaving
When it comes to aviation and shipping the role of hydrogen is a matter of intense debate. For short trips batteries might suffice. But planes using fuel cells could give battery-electric alternatives a run for their money. ZeroAvia, a startup backed by British Airways and Jeff Bezos, Amazon’s billionaire founder, completed the first fuel-cell-powered flight in a commercial-sized aircraft in Britain a year ago. Ferry operators in Norway and on America’s west coast are now experimenting with short-haul ferries powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

Airbus, a European aeroplane-maker, is giving hydrogen its full-throated support. In September, it confirmed a plan to power planes using hydrogen by 2035. Guillaume Faury, the company’s boss, extolled its virtues: “Hydrogen has an energy density three times that of kerosene… is made for aviation.”

On the basis of weight, that is true. On the basis of volume, alas, it is not. At room temperature and pressure, hydrogen is the least dense gas in the universe. So although by the kilogram it may carry three times more energy than kerosene, by the litre it carries 3,000 times less. The gas can be pressurised, which helps, especially for applications where big tanks are not a problem. But to get to within a factor of three of kerosene’s performance per litre hydrogen has to be liquefied. That requires chilling it down to -253°C (-423°F).

Little surprise, then, that Boeing, Airbus’s American rival, is more guarded. Its boffins agree that “hydrogen is fundamental to all sustainable aviation fuels”. But they reckon that flying a 747 across the Atlantic using liquid hydrogen would require filling all its passenger and cargo space with fuel. That is why for longer journeys, planes may end up using clean-hydrogen-based ammonia (as many large ships may do, too) or, more likely, synthetic hydrocarbons. In aviation, those synthetic fuels will have to be able to compete with advanced biofuels, the obvious alternative.

Michael Liebreich, a clean-energy guru, notes that, as one moves away from applications where hydrogen has clear benefits over renewable electricity, it becomes harder to see serious markets for the gas. To illustrate his point he has developed a “hydrogen ladder” which ranks uses from indispensable to unaffordable (see diagram).

An intriguing borderline case is afforded by domestic heating. On an efficiency basis, electrically powered heat pumps beat domestic boilers fired by hydrogen quite handily. But retrofitting urban housing already equipped with boilers to burn hydrogen may be more attractive in some places than trying to fit heat pumps on to every building. Britain is likely to be a test case for this trade-off. In August, its government unveiled plans for 5gw of low-carbon hydrogen production capacity by 2030 to replace natural gas in domestic and industrial applications.

Stairway to heaven
Near the bottom of Mr Liebreich’s ladder are fuel-cell electric vehicles (fcevs) used as cars. Toyota, a Japanese automobile giant, has longed to build them since the early 1990s, investing billions in the technology. Official visitors were ferried around Tokyo in such vehicles during the recent Olympic games, and the Japanese government has plans to expand the country’s fleet of fcevs, which numbered just 3,600 in 2019, to 200,000 by 2025. The Chinese government says it wants 1m of the things by 2030.

But as Mr Liebreich and many others point out, this does not seem sensible if the competition is a battery-powered electric car. Fuel cells add to an electric car’s price and complexity while offering no benefit in performance. They are also inefficient. About four-fifths of the power fed into a battery-powered electric vehicle gets used; conversion losses mean that an fcev is likely to manage only half that level of efficiency. A veteran Japanese utility executive whispers that Toyota’s stance makes no sense: “Millions of fuel-cell cars won’t happen. Even Honda gave up. Pride is why Toyota is sticking with it.”

That does not rule out other forms of road transport. Many of the world’s big lorry-makers, including Europe’s Volvo and Daimler, are racing against startups like Hyzon to bring hydrogen-fuelled heavy lorries to market on the basis that the weight and recharging time of batteries means they are not able to be used. According to dhl, a logistics company, when lorries with heavy loads need to travel farther than 200km (120 miles) batteries become unattractive.

America’s Cummins, known for decades for its conventional engines, is betting big on hydrogen, having acquired firms making electrolysers, fuel cells and hydrogen tanks. Tom Linebarger, its chief executive, says he is highly confident that hydrogen lorries will be “even money” with diesel lorries on total cost of ownership by 2030. Customers, he says, are worried about the reliability of vehicles with batteries. “If I am a distribution company and have fuel-cell vehicles using hydrogen, I don’t need to depend on the grid.”

As on road so, perhaps, on rail. France’s Alstom, the biggest rail manufacturer outside China, is already running hydrogen-powered trains in Germany. Compared with diesel trains, these whizzy locomotives emit no local air pollution, make very little noise and offer a ride as smooth as that of conventional electric trains. The firm thinks many of the 5,000 diesel trains to be retired in Europe by 2035 could economically be replaced by hydrogen trains. By 2030, hydrogen trains could make up a tenth of those not already electrified.

The Boston Consulting Group (bcg) reckons that hydrogen could be competitive on price with other ways of fuelling trains by 2030 even with no carbon pricing. The other big early market it sees is in construction equipment and other applications where the high torque provided by electric motors is useful and the long charging time for batteries a frustration (fork-lift trucks have proved to be one such niche). bcg expects heavy lorries, ships and applications in the chemicals industry will be close behind, and predicts an annual $200bn market for hydrogen-related machinery and components by 2050.

But this makes sense only if supply and demand grow in tandem. A business-as-usual approach in which supply was not stimulated would lead companies to double down on incumbent dirty technologies, particularly in industrial applications, as they update ageing capital equipment, leading to a pernicious lock-in of legacy equipment. But stimulating supply will generate resistance, both from incumbents in other fields and from finance ministries, unless demand is visibly increasing alongside it and delivering things which people want.

Comparing it to the renewables industry, which could feed in to existing grids, Mr Heid of McKinsey likens the hydrogen economy to a heavy flywheel: “It takes more to get it spinning, but once it’s going it really goes.” He might also add that spinning up a flywheel is a tricky business; let it go even a little off balance and you risk having it tear apart.

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/10/09/creating-the-new-hydrogen-economy-is-a-massive-undertaking

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 12:36:41
From: Cymek
ID: 1800511
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

I wonder how it would all play out if monetary cost and profit wasn’t a factor.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 12:41:10
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1800512
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Cymek said:


I wonder how it would all play out if monetary cost and profit wasn’t a factor.

Very wastefully.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 12:42:21
From: sibeen
ID: 1800513
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Witty Rejoinder said:


Climate change and innovation
Hydrogen’s moment is here at last
After decades of doubts the gas is coming of age

Morgan Stanley, a bank, ….

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/10/09/hydrogens-moment-is-here-at-last?

I’m glad that an article in the Economist goes out of its way to point this out :)

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 12:44:07
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1800514
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


Cymek said:

I wonder how it would all play out if monetary cost and profit wasn’t a factor.

Very wastefully.

Running-dog capitalist alert!

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 12:54:32
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1800515
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

sibeen said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Climate change and innovation
Hydrogen’s moment is here at last
After decades of doubts the gas is coming of age

Morgan Stanley, a bank, ….

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/10/09/hydrogens-moment-is-here-at-last?

I’m glad that an article in the Economist goes out of its way to point this out :)

Just checking the efficiency of hydrogen generation and use, TATE tells me 70-80% and 40-60% respectively, but up to 85% with thermal co-generation schemes.

Considering that, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be a much bigger contributor to energy supply, especially in countries with a large difference between summer and winter solar capacity.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/10/2021 13:06:17
From: btm
ID: 1800516
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

One big problem with hydrogen is that it’s very hard (and thus expensive) to store, and it’s expensive to transport. It’s possible (and relatively cheap and easy) to combine with carbon to produce methane (the principal component of natural gas,) or with CO (and/or CO2 — in fact, adding CO2 to CO increases the stability of the (catalytic) reaction, and increases the yield) to produce methanol (which is a liquid, and thus easy to store and transport.) Unfortunately, though, methanol’s is energy density is quite low (15.6 MJ/L; compare with ethanol, 20MJ/L, liquid hydrogen, 8MJ/L, and petrol, 33MJ/L). On combustion, hydrogen produces pure water, while methanol produces water and CO2.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 12:15:15
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1801437
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

AGL has been advertising on TV a change from “natural gas” to “renewable gas”.

Looking up their website https://www.australiangasnetworks.com.au/what-is-renewable-gas

This what they say.

There are two primary forms of renewable gas

Hydrogen. At HyP SA we will be using …

Biomethane is a cleaner version of biogas, that is produced by removing carbon dioxide from biogas captured from decomposing waste products. At AGN we are working with a range of potential biomethane producers to supply into the gas network and locations around Australia.

ie. Biomethane is still pie in the sky.

So, to find out what hydrogen they will be using, it looks like we have to look up “HyP SA”.

https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia

Hydrogen Park South Australia (HyP SA) is an Australia’s largest electrolyser and the first to deliver a renewable hydrogen blend to customers on the existing gas network. Australia’s first renewable gas blend supplied to existing customers.

About Hydrogen Park South Australia

Located at the Tonsley Innovation District, HyP SA is an Australian first project that produces renewable hydrogen gas.

Supported by the South Australian Government with grant funding of $4.9 million, the $14.5m HyP SA project is aligned with the State’s vision to leverage its wind, sun, land, infrastructure and skills to be a world-class renewable hydrogen supplier and to reach net zero emissions by 2050.

At HyP SA, renewable hydrogen is produced using a 1.25MW Siemens Proton Exchange Membrane electrolyser with water and renewable electricity. The renewable hydrogen is blended with natural gas at volumes of up to 5% and supplied to nearby homes via the existing gas network. We are also supplying to industry via tube trailers (long storage tubes on the back of semi-trailers) and aim to supply the transport sector in the future.

HyP SA demonstrates renewable hydrogen production and blending technology in an Australian context and delivers a 5% hydrogen blend which is the first step to lowering greenhouse gas emissions. We are currently extending our hydrogen footprint with projects to deliver up to 10% hydrogen blends before 100% conversion, such as the Australian Hydrogen Centre and Hydrogen Park Gladstone.

First production was achieved at HyP SA as part of commissioning activities in late 2020, before being officially opened on 19 May 2021.

So they’re currently supplying a mix of 5% hydrogen and 95% natural gas to 700 homes.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 12:29:26
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1801440
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

mollwollfumble said:


AGL has been advertising on TV a change from “natural gas” to “renewable gas”.

Looking up their website https://www.australiangasnetworks.com.au/what-is-renewable-gas

This what they say.

There are two primary forms of renewable gas

  • Renewable hydrogen – produced by separating hydrogen from water
  • Biomethane – gas captured from decomposing organic wastes from landfills, agricultural produce and wastewater treatment facilities.

Hydrogen. At HyP SA we will be using …

Biomethane is a cleaner version of biogas, that is produced by removing carbon dioxide from biogas captured from decomposing waste products. At AGN we are working with a range of potential biomethane producers to supply into the gas network and locations around Australia.

ie. Biomethane is still pie in the sky.

So, to find out what hydrogen they will be using, it looks like we have to look up “HyP SA”.

https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia

Hydrogen Park South Australia (HyP SA) is an Australia’s largest electrolyser and the first to deliver a renewable hydrogen blend to customers on the existing gas network. Australia’s first renewable gas blend supplied to existing customers.

About Hydrogen Park South Australia

Located at the Tonsley Innovation District, HyP SA is an Australian first project that produces renewable hydrogen gas.

Supported by the South Australian Government with grant funding of $4.9 million, the $14.5m HyP SA project is aligned with the State’s vision to leverage its wind, sun, land, infrastructure and skills to be a world-class renewable hydrogen supplier and to reach net zero emissions by 2050.

At HyP SA, renewable hydrogen is produced using a 1.25MW Siemens Proton Exchange Membrane electrolyser with water and renewable electricity. The renewable hydrogen is blended with natural gas at volumes of up to 5% and supplied to nearby homes via the existing gas network. We are also supplying to industry via tube trailers (long storage tubes on the back of semi-trailers) and aim to supply the transport sector in the future.

HyP SA demonstrates renewable hydrogen production and blending technology in an Australian context and delivers a 5% hydrogen blend which is the first step to lowering greenhouse gas emissions. We are currently extending our hydrogen footprint with projects to deliver up to 10% hydrogen blends before 100% conversion, such as the Australian Hydrogen Centre and Hydrogen Park Gladstone.

First production was achieved at HyP SA as part of commissioning activities in late 2020, before being officially opened on 19 May 2021.

So they’re currently supplying a mix of 5% hydrogen and 95% natural gas to 700 homes.

One of the first jobs I worked on after starting my own business was infrastructure for a methane generation/collection facility at a dump south of Sydney.

That would have been 2000 or 2001. Presumably it has been operational for 15 years or so, although I have never checked.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 12:47:21
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1801453
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Here we go.

https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia is producing up to 20 kg of hydrogen an hour.

I can see why they’re only supplying enough hydrogen for 35 homes. (ie. 5% mixture supplied to 700 homes).

And to do that they’re using 1.25 Megawatts of electricity.

There are about 1.3 million homes in Australia.

That’s not actually too bad. We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:13:32
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1801467
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

mollwollfumble said:

We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

Hydrogen makes me nervous. It’s very difficult to make sure that it’s 100% sealed into all the pipes, etc, and for Mr/Ms Average getting that level of plumbing would be tricky. Not impossible, just tricky.
Hydrogen also has a very wide ignition band when leaking into air. a bucket of petrol is much safer.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:31:45
From: dv
ID: 1801476
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Spiny Norman said:


mollwollfumble said:

We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

Hydrogen makes me nervous. It’s very difficult to make sure that it’s 100% sealed into all the pipes, etc, and for Mr/Ms Average getting that level of plumbing would be tricky. Not impossible, just tricky.
Hydrogen also has a very wide ignition band when leaking into air. a bucket of petrol is much safer.

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:35:57
From: Michael V
ID: 1801482
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

dv said:


Spiny Norman said:

mollwollfumble said:

We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

Hydrogen makes me nervous. It’s very difficult to make sure that it’s 100% sealed into all the pipes, etc, and for Mr/Ms Average getting that level of plumbing would be tricky. Not impossible, just tricky.
Hydrogen also has a very wide ignition band when leaking into air. a bucket of petrol is much safer.

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:36:26
From: dv
ID: 1801484
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Disclosure: I’m involved in some work for one of these plants so I may show bias towards big H.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:38:54
From: party_pants
ID: 1801485
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Michael V said:


dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

Hydrogen makes me nervous. It’s very difficult to make sure that it’s 100% sealed into all the pipes, etc, and for Mr/Ms Average getting that level of plumbing would be tricky. Not impossible, just tricky.
Hydrogen also has a very wide ignition band when leaking into air. a bucket of petrol is much safer.

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:44:23
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1801488
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Michael V said:


dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

Hydrogen makes me nervous. It’s very difficult to make sure that it’s 100% sealed into all the pipes, etc, and for Mr/Ms Average getting that level of plumbing would be tricky. Not impossible, just tricky.
Hydrogen also has a very wide ignition band when leaking into air. a bucket of petrol is much safer.

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

people probably said similar about early cars.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:46:01
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1801489
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

party_pants said:


Michael V said:

dv said:

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

That’s my thinking, get a cute electric woke car for pottering around the suburbs, going to the Library, going food shopping at the local vegan emporium etc and a proper car for touring.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:54:04
From: Michael V
ID: 1801494
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

JudgeMental said:


Michael V said:

dv said:

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

people probably said similar about early cars.

To be fair, people carried extra cans of fuel for long trips between refills way back then.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:55:05
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1801495
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

dv said:


Disclosure: I’m involved in some work for one of these plants so I may show bias towards big H.

Is it feasible to convert H2 to CH4 using CO2 extracted from the atmosphere?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:55:53
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1801496
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Michael V said:


JudgeMental said:

Michael V said:

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

people probably said similar about early cars.

To be fair, people carried extra cans of fuel for long trips between refills way back then.

I’m kinda talking before the 1900s

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:57:44
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1801498
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

Disclosure: I’m involved in some work for one of these plants so I may show bias towards big H.

Is it feasible to convert H2 to CH4 using CO2 extracted from the atmosphere?

Sabatier process one of the proposals by Zubrin for making fuel on mars.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:57:55
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1801499
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

party_pants said:


Michael V said:

dv said:

Yeah I’m okay with hydrogen being used for storage at a major plant but not out and about in the home or vehicles. I’m more comfortable with electric vehicles.

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 13:59:02
From: dv
ID: 1801501
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

Disclosure: I’m involved in some work for one of these plants so I may show bias towards big H.

Is it feasible to convert H2 to CH4 using CO2 extracted from the atmosphere?

Yeah but if you were going to do that it might be better to just manufacture CH4 from water and CO2… cut out the middle man.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:00:35
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801504
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


party_pants said:

Michael V said:

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

Would an electric battery swap work, like small reusable gas tanks?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:00:53
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1801505
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Disclosure: I’m involved in some work for one of these plants so I may show bias towards big H.

Is it feasible to convert H2 to CH4 using CO2 extracted from the atmosphere?

Yeah but if you were going to do that it might be better to just manufacture CH4 from water and CO2… cut out the middle man.

OK, so what is the advantage of H2 over doing that?

Zero CO2 emissions when you burn it?

Anything else?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:02:01
From: Michael V
ID: 1801506
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

JudgeMental said:


Michael V said:

JudgeMental said:

people probably said similar about early cars.

To be fair, people carried extra cans of fuel for long trips between refills way back then.

I’m kinda talking before the 1900s

OK, but they didn’t have the nice, 100 km/h infrastructure, good tyres and safety of now. In any case, there were electric cars around quite early on. eg 1899 – Flocken Elektrowagen. So they’ve had the development time.

In any case, for me to change to electric (and I’d love to), it’d take a great increase in real-road-driving distance capacity.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:08:42
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1801507
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Michael V said:


JudgeMental said:

Michael V said:

To be fair, people carried extra cans of fuel for long trips between refills way back then.

I’m kinda talking before the 1900s

OK, but they didn’t have the nice, 100 km/h infrastructure, good tyres and safety of now. In any case, there were electric cars around quite early on. eg 1899 – Flocken Elektrowagen. So they’ve had the development time.

In any case, for me to change to electric (and I’d love to), it’d take a great increase in real-road-driving distance capacity.

unfortunately ICE came along and put a stop to battery development to a great extent. Even when I nwas travelling I never did 1200km in a day. I guess there is nowhere I want to get to that desperately that I don’t want to see stuff on the way.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:10:28
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801508
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Would an electric battery swap work, like small reusable gas tanks?

How heavy, would it need a trolly?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:18:12
From: Michael V
ID: 1801509
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


party_pants said:

Michael V said:

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:20:42
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1801511
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Michael V said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

Rivian r1t can get 312 miles apparently , charges relatively quickly too.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:22:07
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801514
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Tau.Neutrino said:


Would an electric battery swap work, like small reusable gas tanks?

How heavy, would it need a trolly?

The Tesla Model 3 has a range of 508 to 657 km

MSRP: From AU$59,900
Warranty: 4 yr/unlimited mi
Range: 508 to 657 km battery-only
Battery charge time: 7h at 220V
Acceleration 0-100 km/h: 3.3 to 5.6 seconds
Battery: 50-75 kWh 360 V lithium-ion

Long charge time at 7 hr

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:29:25
From: Michael V
ID: 1801518
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

poikilotherm said:


Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

Rivian r1t can get 312 miles apparently , charges relatively quickly too.

Ta. Hadn’t read about them. Not yet available in RHD, or in Australia, but being tested. Perhaps in a year or two?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:32:45
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801520
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

China’s Nio Lets EV Drivers Swap Batteries in 5 Minutes, Hit the Road

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:33:20
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801521
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Can EV Battery Swapping Take Off In The U.S.?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:34:37
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801522
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Are swappable EV batteries really a dead end?

I see a market for them.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:36:50
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801524
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Startup Ample Launches New Battery Swap For EVs That Could Avoid The Failures Of Previous Ventures

How Is This A Good Idea?: EV Battery Swapping Swap this technological dead-end out for better batteries, improved superchargers and more universal EV charging standards

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:49:02
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1801528
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Michael V said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

OK, looks like I wasn’t taking due account of Elonhype.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 14:52:02
From: sibeen
ID: 1801529
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

OK, looks like I wasn’t taking due account of Elonhype.

Elonhype? What could that possibly be?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 15:06:59
From: Michael V
ID: 1801545
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

sibeen said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

OK, looks like I wasn’t taking due account of Elonhype.

Elonhype? What could that possibly be?

LOLOL

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 15:24:44
From: Kingy
ID: 1801553
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

mollwollfumble said:


Here we go.

https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia is producing up to 20 kg of hydrogen an hour.

I can see why they’re only supplying enough hydrogen for 35 homes. (ie. 5% mixture supplied to 700 homes).

And to do that they’re using 1.25 Megawatts of electricity.

There are about 1.3 million homes in Australia.

That’s not actually too bad. We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

How do they measure 20kg of hydrogen?

Glue some scales to the ceiling and let a balloonful float up against it?

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 15:34:25
From: party_pants
ID: 1801559
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


party_pants said:

Michael V said:

It’d be good if electric vehicles were made with 1,200 km real road-driving capacity.

I think I would like a small electric 2 seater with about 250-500 km range. Enough to get around town on weekends and do some short trips.

Any longer journeys or trips requiring more than 2 people I’d have to hire a regular car.

Surely having 2 or 3 breaks over a 1200 km trip, to recharge car batteries and the driver’s brain is not such a problem.

I was thinking more of remote trips. Anything over 400-500 km away from Perth and you in the outback, with only a few towns scattered here and there. People doing the big road trips generally go to remote(ish) places.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 15:51:11
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1801566
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

If they rolled batteries in that might be faster.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:02:02
From: dv
ID: 1801568
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Is it feasible to convert H2 to CH4 using CO2 extracted from the atmosphere?

Yeah but if you were going to do that it might be better to just manufacture CH4 from water and CO2… cut out the middle man.

OK, so what is the advantage of H2 over doing that?

Zero CO2 emissions when you burn it?

Anything else?

Okay I think we are talking at cross purposes.

Creating hydrogen and burning it at a power plant can be an efficient way of adding to the energy storage available to a power grid.

IMHO, hydrogen for general vehicular or household use is probably not a good idea because of safety and logistical issues.

Methane of course is already used to power vehicles and for cooking and water heating in the household. There’s a distribution network in place.

If you want to make CH4 (using renewable power for instance), then yeah you can do it using hydrogen and CO2 at the plant.

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:05:00
From: dv
ID: 1801569
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

sibeen said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

It’s not as simple as that. I wish it were.

Real-road driving for starters, reduces distance available by about 40%, apparently. Lets say 50% to give a safety margin. So most cars can only travel around 125 km safely on a single charge. A fast recharge (40 mins to 1.5 hours) generally recharges to less than 80% of total capacity, reducing that distance to 100 km. So, now we are looking at 10 recharges for 1200 km.

Unviable. For me at least.

OK, looks like I wasn’t taking due account of Elonhype.

Elonhype? What could that possibly be?

Muskerade

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:09:53
From: Michael V
ID: 1801570
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

dv said:


sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, looks like I wasn’t taking due account of Elonhype.

Elonhype? What could that possibly be?

Muskerade

Hahahahahahahaha

Good one.

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:16:47
From: Michael V
ID: 1801572
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-10/qld-palaszczuk-andrew-forrest-hydrogen-gladstone/100527670

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:21:43
From: Michael V
ID: 1801576
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/hydrogen-fuel-breakthrough-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:27:43
From: Michael V
ID: 1801579
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-14/why-has-palaszczuk-created-a-department-of-hydrogen/12877426

Reply Quote

Date: 10/10/2021 16:28:42
From: sibeen
ID: 1801581
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

dv said:


sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, looks like I wasn’t taking due account of Elonhype.

Elonhype? What could that possibly be?

Muskerade

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 11/10/2021 16:07:54
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1801918
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Kingy said:


mollwollfumble said:

Here we go.

https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia is producing up to 20 kg of hydrogen an hour.

I can see why they’re only supplying enough hydrogen for 35 homes. (ie. 5% mixture supplied to 700 homes).

And to do that they’re using 1.25 Megawatts of electricity.

There are about 1.3 million homes in Australia.

That’s not actually too bad. We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

How do they measure 20kg of hydrogen?

Glue some scales to the ceiling and let a balloonful float up against it?

That’d work.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/10/2021 16:09:31
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1801920
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Reply Quote

Date: 11/10/2021 16:13:57
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1801924
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

mollwollfumble said:


Kingy said:

mollwollfumble said:

Here we go.

https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia is producing up to 20 kg of hydrogen an hour.

I can see why they’re only supplying enough hydrogen for 35 homes. (ie. 5% mixture supplied to 700 homes).

And to do that they’re using 1.25 Megawatts of electricity.

There are about 1.3 million homes in Australia.

That’s not actually too bad. We could replace all the natural gas with hydrogen in Australia using less than Australia’s current total usage of electricity.

How do they measure 20kg of hydrogen?

Glue some scales to the ceiling and let a balloonful float up against it?

That’d work.

Use a container of a known volume if it’s liquid.
Use a container of a known volume and measure the pressure if it’s gas.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/10/2021 17:12:53
From: Michael V
ID: 1801970
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

JudgeMental said:



LOLOL

Reply Quote

Date: 12/10/2021 21:24:13
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1802581
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

From: SCIENCE
ID: 1802579
Subject: re: The Environment 2
Thank Liberal

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-11/qld-hydrogen-capacity-explainer-hydrogen-green-twiggy/100528046

Reply Quote

Date: 13/10/2021 04:44:29
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1802637
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

Witty Rejoinder said:

From: SCIENCE
ID: 1802579
Subject: re: The Environment 2
Thank Liberal

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-11/qld-hydrogen-capacity-explainer-hydrogen-green-twiggy/100528046

sorry our bad please take this addition in condolence

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/macron-launches-47-billion-france-2030-investment-plan-20211012-p58zfq.html

Reply Quote

Date: 13/10/2021 09:56:56
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1802701
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

https://reneweconomy.com.au/kurri-kurri-the-generator-on-gas-rations/

Reply Quote

Date: 17/10/2021 16:17:29
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1804906
Subject: re: The New Hydrogen Economy

speaking of gas lit recoveries

¡ hooray The Economy Must Grow with Big Profit for corporations !

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-10-14/australian-gas-producers-profit-from-global-energy-crisis/100533746

¿ horror oh wait does that mean users pay more ?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-17/big-power-bills-loom-for-households-amid-global-energy-crisis/100542456

nah fuck it the media and They The Loving Caring Corruption Coalition Politicians tell us we make Big Profit For The Economy Must Grow so it’s our responsibility to coff up and fill their coughers and they deserve to stay in power forever

Reply Quote