New Thread.
VIC: 797 new cases, 8 deaths.
NSW: 212 new cases, two deaths.
NT: 9 new cases.
QLD: Zero new cases.
ACT: 12 new cases.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-16/covid-live-blog-nsw-victoria-queensland-latest-updates/100622484
What’s QLD’s secret, low vaccination, borders Gutless Corruption Land, lots of ASIANS, quarantine facilities not complete yet… but 0¿
SCIENCE said:
What’s QLD’s secret, low vaccination, borders Gutless Corruption Land, lots of ASIANS, quarantine facilities not complete yet… but 0¿
Coal royalties allow us to run a top shelf hotel quarantine system.
When states under Corruption Coalition enact mandatory public health measures, news reports gush about the benefits and there’s not a word about protests ¡ Must be all the Freedom ¡
proof that our neighbours are led by communist idiots too stupid to handle complexity
https://www.dn.se/debatt/sverige-samst-i-vastvarlden-pa-att-hantera-pandemin/
En ny beräkning visar att Sverige har varit sämst i den rika delen av världen på att hantera pandemin.
Coronakommissionen har nyligen presenterat den andra delrapporten som till stora delar innehåller svidande kritik av hur pandemin hanterats. Sverige var illa förberett och påståendet att beredskapen var god vilseledande och felaktigt. Besluten var otillräckliga och senfärdiga, särskilt när det gällde smittspårning och testning. Samtidigt vidhåller Folkhälsomyndigheten och regeringsföreträdare att vi hanterat pandemin förhållandevis väl jämfört med andra länder trots de markant högre dödstalen.
Vi har valt att jämföra Sverige med OECD-länder, det vill säga länder som är relativt lika Sverige. I tabellen rangordnas dels de tio OECD-länder som klarat sig bäst, det vill säga där de faktiska dödstalen ligger nära eller under de förväntade, dels de tio länder som klarat sig sämst.
Sverige är det industrialiserade land som haft det sämsta utfallet, tätt följt av Belgien. Därefter följer ett par sydamerikanska länder, men också Storbritannien, Israel (trots tidig vaccinering), Schweiz, Tyskland och USA. Samtliga dessa länder har under perioder haft stora problem med smittspridning som lett till betydande dödstal.
—
oh they mention Belgium, let’s see
Barely one week after the previous announcement, Belgian hospitals have been asked to scale up once again, meaning they must reserve 50% of beds in their intensive care units for Covid-19 patients by Friday.
sounds like fun
SCIENCE said:
sounds like fun
Here’s a nice short and simple one,
https://twitter.com/i/status/1460438505755070472
you can all enjoy reading while also celebrating your relief that we’re kind of chucking a dv and saying we might be busy elsewhere for a week but might finish up earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjJs5ZHKJI
Spike Proteins In Immune Cells – Dr. Bruce Patterson Discusses COVID Long Haul
been watching that^, but need continue tomorrow
SCIENCE said:
What’s QLD’s secret, low vaccination, borders Gutless Corruption Land, lots of ASIANS, quarantine facilities not complete yet… but 0¿
In my area we also have loads of Asians
THEY ALL WEAR MASKS and Run the other way
whenever they see Unmasked White People headed their way
Dam Smart Them Chinese.
but seriously:
It’s the law to mask-up
even if you have a Head Cold
me thinks we’ve still got a Lot To Learn
Almost two-thirds of the 61,800 COVID-19 cases recorded during the Delta outbreak were unvaccinated, according to a surveillance report released by the NSW government.
The health department said 63.1 per cent of people who contracted coronavirus between June 16 and October 7 had not received a jab within 21 days of their infection.
For people who had received double or single doses of the vaccine, this figure dropped dramatically to 6.1 and 9.2 per cent, respectively.
The vaccination status of the remaining 21.7 per cent was unknown.
The report, compiled by the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance, also found of the 47 fully vaccinated deaths in this period, just under two-thirds were aged care residents.
The remaining 18 were found to have “significant comorbidities” such as pre-existing health conditions.
transition said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjJs5ZHKJI
Spike Proteins In Immune Cells – Dr. Bruce Patterson Discusses COVID Long Haulbeen watching that^, but need continue tomorrow
watching that again^, and quick look at this below, but need have another gander later
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCR5_receptor_antagonist
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/experts-worldwide-talk-living-with-covid-australia/100605030
I just read that^, the obliviated detail was that vaccine + crush covid and eliminate it works really well, where it has been done and worked really well
the program now is to eliminate any examples of where it works, and there’s no end to the recruiting for that
transition said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/experts-worldwide-talk-living-with-covid-australia/100605030I just read that^, the obliviated detail was that vaccine + crush covid and eliminate it works really well, where it has been done and worked really well
the program now is to eliminate any examples of where it works, and there’s no end to the recruiting for that
With delta there is an ever diminishing number of jurisdictions where elimination is working.
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/experts-worldwide-talk-living-with-covid-australia/100605030I just read that^, the obliviated detail was that vaccine + crush covid and eliminate it works really well, where it has been done and worked really well
the program now is to eliminate any examples of where it works, and there’s no end to the recruiting for that
With delta there is an ever diminishing number of jurisdictions where elimination is working.
So it looks lie we are stuck with it and it is probably better to be concentrating on eliminating risk of the development of newer variations.
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/experts-worldwide-talk-living-with-covid-australia/100605030I just read that^, the obliviated detail was that vaccine + crush covid and eliminate it works really well, where it has been done and worked really well
the program now is to eliminate any examples of where it works, and there’s no end to the recruiting for that
With delta there is an ever diminishing number of jurisdictions where elimination is working.
yeah yeah, of course, it’s delta, not the hosts, i’ll ignore your appeal to inevitability
what I won’t ignore though is the contribution of areas (States etc) of low incidence of infection (including zero) to reduced bidirectional covid traffic pushing up incidents elsewhere
both NSW and Victoria for example, those States have been greatly assisted in managing covid by the low incidence of covid in bordering States
you won’t read it though, not from those chanting for a covid equilibrium of background infections for their social ‘insurance’
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/experts-worldwide-talk-living-with-covid-australia/100605030I just read that^, the obliviated detail was that vaccine + crush covid and eliminate it works really well, where it has been done and worked really well
the program now is to eliminate any examples of where it works, and there’s no end to the recruiting for that
With delta there is an ever diminishing number of jurisdictions where elimination is working.
yeah yeah, of course, it’s delta, not the hosts, i’ll ignore your appeal to inevitability
what I won’t ignore though is the contribution of areas (States etc) of low incidence of infection (including zero) to reduced bidirectional covid traffic pushing up incidents elsewhere
both NSW and Victoria for example, those States have been greatly assisted in managing covid by the low incidence of covid in bordering States
you won’t read it though, not from those chanting for a covid equilibrium of background infections for their social ‘insurance’
Do you mean bio-directional infection like in border areas? Like it being hard on Victoria if rural areas were as affected as Melbourne? A valid point I guess.
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:With delta there is an ever diminishing number of jurisdictions where elimination is working.
yeah yeah, of course, it’s delta, not the hosts, i’ll ignore your appeal to inevitability
what I won’t ignore though is the contribution of areas (States etc) of low incidence of infection (including zero) to reduced bidirectional covid traffic pushing up incidents elsewhere
both NSW and Victoria for example, those States have been greatly assisted in managing covid by the low incidence of covid in bordering States
you won’t read it though, not from those chanting for a covid equilibrium of background infections for their social ‘insurance’
Do you mean bio-directional infection like in border areas? Like it being hard on Victoria if rural areas were as affected as Melbourne? A valid point I guess.
any bidirectional traffic tends to push up incidents of infection in areas where it is lower (including zero), applies of all scales
but of that, my point, was that those areas ‘external’ (if you like) where there is low incidence, they help contain infection, or reduce growth in area where infection numbers are higher
transition said:
gravity
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:yeah yeah, of course, it’s delta, not the hosts, i’ll ignore your appeal to inevitability
what I won’t ignore though is the contribution of areas (States etc) of low incidence of infection (including zero) to reduced bidirectional covid traffic pushing up incidents elsewhere
both NSW and Victoria for example, those States have been greatly assisted in managing covid by the low incidence of covid in bordering States
you won’t read it though, not from those chanting for a covid equilibrium of background infections for their social ‘insurance’
Do you mean bio-directional infection like in border areas? Like it being hard on Victoria if rural areas were as affected as Melbourne? A valid point I guess.
any bidirectional traffic tends to push up incidents of infection in areas where it is lower (including zero), applies of all scales
but of that, my point, was that those areas ‘external’ (if you like) where there is low incidence, they help contain infection, or reduce growth in area where infection numbers are higher
Never mind death, this sounds like pure hell.
https://www.healthline.com/health/parosmia-after-covid
Divine Angel said:
Never mind death, this sounds like pure hell.https://www.healthline.com/health/parosmia-after-covid
Bummer.
Divine Angel said:
Never mind death, this sounds like pure hell.https://www.healthline.com/health/parosmia-after-covid
I suppose you’d just have to get used to it.
>Some types of distorted odors people with parosmia report include:
sewage or garbage
rotten meat or eggs
smoky or burnt
gasoline
metallic
ammonia or vinegar
moldy socks
skunk
Divine Angel said:
Never mind death, this sounds like pure hell.https://www.healthline.com/health/parosmia-after-covid
read a bit about that, could be a prolonged unpleasant experience, if olfactory sense turned on you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlmvJnA1oDQ
IN FULL: WA Premier Mark McGowan provides a COVID-19 update | ABC News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma7wOKUCqR8
IN FULL: SA Premier updates state’s COVID-19 ready plan | ABC News
watched most of those^
Animal hidey-holes for SARS-CoV-2
Many animals besides humans look as if they can catch the virus, too
Nov 17th 2021
IN THE FIELD of epidemiology, a “spillover” is a virus that has made the leap from one host species to another. The spillovers of most concern to people are those from other animals to Homo sapiens. These may then go on to create “zoonotic” human diseases—of which covid-19 is believed to be one (the original host of SARS-CoV-2 is thought to have been an as-yet-undetermined species of bat).
Such traffic can, however, run in two directions. For example, in 2020 the World Health Organisation reported that SARS-CoV-2 had spilled over in Denmark from human beings into farmed mink, and was thereafter transmitted from animal to animal to create a veterinary epidemic. And, earlier this month, a paper posted on BioRxiv, an electronic host for work that has not yet been peer reviewed, presented evidence that the virus is also circulating in white-tailed deer in North America, having presumably spilled over from people there. All of which is on top of reports suggesting that domestic pets, especially cats and dogs, can also pick up SARS-CoV-2—and in the case of cats at least, then pass it on to others of their kind.
Spillovers of this sort are potentially serious, for two reasons. One is that they create viral reservoirs beyond the easy reach of medical science and monitoring. Even if there are no human cases of covid in an area, such animal reservoirs mean that SARS-CoV-2 may still be lurking, waiting to spill back into people. The other is that exposure to the immune systems of novel hosts may drive the evolution of new and (if they then do spill back) potentially threatening viral strains. The mink incident therefore led the governments of Denmark, the Netherlands and Spain to cull 18m animals and place strict lockdowns in regions around the fur farms concerned. Treating a wild population, such as white-tailed deer, in a similar way would be harder. But precautions are still possible. Raising awareness among those who interact with the deer, such as hunters, can do a lot.
These, though, are reactive approaches. A proactive one would try to establish which species are at greatest risk of becoming reservoirs for SARS-CoV-2 before they actually do so. That would permit the monitoring of threats before they got out of hand. And, as she reports this week in the Proceedings of the Royal Society, Barbara Han of the Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies, an independent environmental-research organisation based in Millbrook, New York, thinks she has worked out a way to achieve this.
Hidden ACEs
Starting early in 2020, just after covid emerged, Dr Han and her colleagues focused their attention on ACE2, a cell-membrane protein that had been identified early on in the epidemic as the virus’s point of entry. ACE2’s day job is to help regulate blood pressure, and most vertebrates have it in one form or another. The researchers wanted to determine in which other vertebrate species SARS-CoV-2 might be expected to bind as strongly to the local ACE2 receptors as it does to those in human beings. These would be candidates for the role of reservoirs.
To this end, they gathered molecular information about every version of ACE2 that they could get their hands on. Mostly, these were from mammals—142 species of them. They then used computer modelling of the interatomic forces involved to work out the strengths of the bonds likely to develop between SARS-CoV-2’s spike protein and each version of ACE2. As they expected, based on news that broke while they were conducting their work, the bond with mink ACE2 was particularly strong. They found a similarly strong affinity with ACE2 from white-tailed deer, long before reports of infections in that species emerged. Cats and dogs also showed up as being at risk—which data then confirmed that they were. And gorillas and macaques, which have suffered a few cases in zoos, looked susceptible as well.
Useful as this information was, Dr Han was keen to look beyond these 142 species. To delve deeper, the team built a database of evolutionary traits shared by the species with the most vulnerable ACE2 receptors. This is a technique which has been used successfully in the past on rodents and bats, to assess their likelihood of acting as reservoirs for viruses including Ebola and Zika. It is based on the idea that particular proteins of species with similar physiologies and ways of life might be expected to evolve in similar ways.
The researchers studied everything they could—from breadth of diet, metabolic rate and age of sexual maturity to litter size, lifespan, geographical range and phylogenetic relationships—about more than 5,000 mammals for which little to no ACE2-receptor information was available. This enormous database completed, they fed the outcome into a machine-learning system that had been trained on the characteristics of the 142 species they had already examined. The result was the revelation of 540 species which seemed likely to have vulnerable ACE2 receptors and thus the potential to function as covid reservoirs.
Most primates were on this list—which, considering that people are primates too, was expected. Nor, given suspicions about SARS-CoV-2’s origins, was the inclusion of 35 types of bat a surprise. Surprises, however, there were. Though the common house mouse does not look to be a risk, which is good news, two of its fellow rodents, the ricefield rat and the Malayan field rat, both do. Since these species are often preyed on by domestic cats, themselves now known to be covid-susceptible, that provides a route by which people might become infected.
Dozens of other species were also flagged up as potential reservoirs. These included red foxes and raccoon dogs—two creatures which, like mink, are sometimes farmed for fur—and white-lipped peccaries (pig-like creatures found in South and Central America) and nilgai (a large Asian antelope), both of which are farmed occasionally, and also hunted and eaten.
Among more widespread livestock, the species of most concern is the water buffalo. There are reckoned to be over 200m of these around the world, acting as both beasts of burden and sources of milk. And other frequently hunted animals, such as the duiker (another antelope), the warty pig and the mule deer were also reckoned vulnerable, together with some rarities, including two critically endangered antelopes, the addax and the scimitar-horned oryx (pictured below), which was once extinct in the wild and is only now being reintroduced. In these cases the threat is less to human beings than to the survival of the species.
Paying the buffalo bill
The sheer range of species involved staggers Dr Han. “I never imagined that we would ever see a virus with such a high cross-species infection potential,” she says. “It appears that there are at least an order of magnitude more species that are susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection than any other zoonotic virus I can think of.”
Forewarned, however, is forearmed. And here there is perhaps a lesson on keeping the weapons in the arsenal sharp. One reason Dr Han’s study took so long from inception to publication is the disparate nature of the sources she needed to draw on. Scattered as they were around the world’s natural-history collections, assembling them took time. Many museums are now in the business of making their collections available electronically. To some, that might sound a low priority. Work like this suggests it is not.
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/hidey-holes-for-sars-cov-2-1/21806334?
Wuflu, case zero…
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
Interesting, if somewhat messy to read.
Did the early reports of antibodies in people in a cancer trial in Italy who had blood taken in September 2019 ever come to anything?
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-circulating-italy-earlier-thought.html
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
Interesting, if somewhat messy to read.
Did the early reports of antibodies in people in a cancer trial in Italy who had blood taken in September 2019 ever come to anything?
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-circulating-italy-earlier-thought.html
Probably not reliable considering testing type used and antibodies found, as Cochrane like to say – further studies needed.
Mainly, the antibody ‘found’ was IgM, which reacts with lots of things and can crossreact.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
Interesting, if somewhat messy to read.
Did the early reports of antibodies in people in a cancer trial in Italy who had blood taken in September 2019 ever come to anything?
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-circulating-italy-earlier-thought.html
Probably not reliable considering testing type used and antibodies found, as Cochrane like to say – further studies needed.
Mainly, the antibody ‘found’ was IgM, which reacts with lots of things and can crossreact.
This seems to be the original paper on that.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755
My antibody knowledge is a bit too rusty to get the nuances.
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:Interesting, if somewhat messy to read.
Did the early reports of antibodies in people in a cancer trial in Italy who had blood taken in September 2019 ever come to anything?
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-circulating-italy-earlier-thought.html
Probably not reliable considering testing type used and antibodies found, as Cochrane like to say – further studies needed.
Mainly, the antibody ‘found’ was IgM, which reacts with lots of things and can crossreact.
This seems to be the original paper on that.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755
My antibody knowledge is a bit too rusty to get the nuances.
There’s also a reply and another reply. One point never addressed further by the original authors is ‘unreliability’ of the testing used in low prevalence populations.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:Probably not reliable considering testing type used and antibodies found, as Cochrane like to say – further studies needed.
Mainly, the antibody ‘found’ was IgM, which reacts with lots of things and can crossreact.
This seems to be the original paper on that.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755
My antibody knowledge is a bit too rusty to get the nuances.
There’s also a reply and another reply. One point never addressed further by the original authors is ‘unreliability’ of the testing used in low prevalence populations.
There would be capability to check their results, I guess, with a different test. Unless all the samples were used up, which I’d doubt. It would be interesting for someone to check the repeatability. Kind of like science is supposed to work?
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
You’ll be hearing from the West Taiwanese authorities, poik, about your attempts to spread false comments and upset the social order.
e.g. “We solemnly warn you: If you keep being stubborn, with such impertinence, and continue this illegal activity, you will be brought to justice – is that understood?”
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:This seems to be the original paper on that.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755
My antibody knowledge is a bit too rusty to get the nuances.
There’s also a reply and another reply. One point never addressed further by the original authors is ‘unreliability’ of the testing used in low prevalence populations.
There would be capability to check their results, I guess, with a different test. Unless all the samples were used up, which I’d doubt. It would be interesting for someone to check the repeatability. Kind of like science is supposed to work?
Sure, but you don’t always repeat something you know has poor reliability, given the limited samples, less than ideal testing methods and destructive nature of the testing.
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
Thanks for that. Interesting and fairly convincing. The map says it all.
Michael V said:
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4454
Thanks for that. Interesting and fairly convincing. The map says it all.
reading that^
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_raccoon_dog
Coronaviruses
A virus similar to SARS-CoV was isolated from Himalayan palm civets (Paguma larvata), a raccoon dog, and humans working in a live-animal market in Guangdong, China in May 2003.
Raccoon dogs, as well as masked palm civets, were originally believed to be the natural reservoirs of severe acute respiratory syndrome–related coronavirus. However, genetic analysis has since convinced most experts that bats are the natural hosts. Raccoon dogs were most likely only transient accidental hosts.
According to German virologist Christian Drosten the raccoon dog is the most likely intermediate host for transmission of SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-Cov-2 to humans, as racoon dogs are bred in China in fur farming.
Other viruses
The introduction of the raccoon dog to Europe is thought to have brought with it infected ticks that introduced the Asian tick-borne meningoencephalitis virus.
Cases of raccoon dogs carrying rabies are known from the lower Volga, Voronezh, and Lithuania.
Canine distemper occurs in raccoon dogs inhabiting the northern Caucasus.
Bacteria
Captive raccoon dogs in Soviet state animal farms were recorded to carry paratyphoid, anthrax, and tuberculosis
transition said:
The introduction of the raccoon dog to Europe is thought to have brought with it infected ticks that introduced the Asian tick-borne meningoencephalitis virus.
Cases of raccoon dogs carrying rabies are known from the lower Volga, Voronezh, and Lithuania.
Canine distemper occurs in raccoon dogs inhabiting the northern Caucasus.
Bacteria
Captive raccoon dogs in Soviet state animal farms were recorded to carry paratyphoid, anthrax, and tuberculosis
So, not a breed recommended for families with small children, then?
Divine Angel said:
Reminds me of when we would claim to have received information from ‘great authority’.
‘Great Authority’ was the name of the dog that belonged to the bloke who ran the garage at Medlow Bath.
South Korea loosened covid rules after massive vaccine uptake. Now cases and hospitalizations are surging.
By Andrew Jeong
November 17, 2021 at 4:18 a.m. EST
SEOUL — Less than three weeks after South Korea relaxed pandemic restrictions under a new living-with-covid policy, the country is experiencing a surge in coronavirus cases.
On Wednesday, the country reported a record 522 coronavirus patients hospitalized with moderate to serious symptoms requiring intensive care, intubation or oxygen to help with breathing. It tallied 3,187 new infections the same day, the second-highest daily figure since the start of the pandemic.
South Korea’s government began relaxing pandemic restrictions on Nov. 1, deeming that a sufficient proportion of the population had been vaccinated. South Korea has fully immunized close to 80 percent of its 52 million people, despite a later start than many other wealthy countries. Fewer than 10 countries have higher vaccination rates, Washington Post figures show.
Last month, South Korea started vaccinating children ages 12 to 17 and providing booster shots for the elderly and people working at medical facilities. No vaccine has been approved for Korean children younger than 12.
In its first phase of loosened restrictions, South Korea is letting bars, restaurants and cafes stay open longer; previously, most had to close by 10 p.m. Private groups of up to 12 people can gather outside the Seoul metropolitan area (and 10 in the Seoul area), up from four. Professional sporting events can now allow fans into stadiums. (Game 3 of the Korean Series, the local equivalent of the World Series, is on Wednesday evening.)
The rising caseload has stirred concern among health officials. South Korea will stop relaxing measures further if coronavirus case numbers continue to go up, Jeong Eun-kyeong, the country’s top disease control official, said during a parliamentary hearing last week.
Korean officials have previously said that the country’s health-care system could manage 500 coronavirus patients with serious symptoms at any given time without experiencing major strains. Wednesday marked the first time that South Korea surpassed the 500-patient threshold.
Deaths have also been climbing. On Nov. 1, the seven-day average for daily coronavirus deaths was 12.3, according to Our World in Data. That figure has now risen to about 20.
Kim Woo-joo, an infectious-disease expert at Korea University, said the recent surges reflected waning immunity against the coronavirus among those who had been vaccinated several months ago. “This is why we need booster shots,” he said in a phone interview.
Health officials told reporters Wednesday that the spread of the delta variant has driven increases in breakthrough infections at nursing homes and long-term care facilities, where most of the residents are senior citizens who received their initial vaccination doses earlier in the year.
“We are seeing more serious cases and deaths among the elderly,” said Choi Eunhwa, head of a government panel that oversees vaccine policy.
An Israeli study published in the New England Journal of Medicine last month showed that six months after receiving the second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine, people’s immune response to the coronavirus “substantially decreased,” especially among men, those age 65 or older and those with immunosuppressed conditions.
More than half of the vaccine doses administered in South Korea so far were of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, although the country has also given out doses of the Moderna, Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca-Oxford vaccines.
Though daily deaths are rising, South Korea’s covid fatality rate is low — and has fallen from 2.4 percent in May 2020 to less than 0.8 percent now, according to Our World in Data. This, experts say, is partly due to its high vaccination rate.
“This does show that vaccines work,” said Kim, the infectious-disease doctor. “But this isn’t a cause for celebration. The whole point of vaccines is preventing deaths. The number of deaths is rising.”
“If we want to live with covid like the common cold, the case fatality rate has to fall to less than 0.1 percent,” he said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/11/17/south-korea-covid-patients/?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SYL-iU0E9Q
Spike Protein Goes to Nucleus and Impairs DNA Repair (In-Vitro Study)
watching that^
A GP from another forum:
“So apparently Greg Hunt had brought in a bonus item number for us GPs to see COVID patients face to face.
It’s $25. The required commercial clean of our premises afterward is $1600.”
I don’t think I’ve seen this one in here. Should possibly be in the memes thread instead though.
buffy said:
I don’t think I’ve seen this one in here. Should possibly be in the memes thread instead though.
Heh.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.29.21264325v2
“Assessing the Burden of COVID-19 in Developing Countries: Systematic Review, Meta-Analysis, and Public Policy Implications”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-y
Anyone for Ivermectin? It seems the research is, um, a bit flaky.
“The lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are inherently unreliable”
It’s a letter to the editor, but it’s got links to the papers mentioned.
buffy said:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-yAnyone for Ivermectin? It seems the research is, um, a bit flaky.
“The lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are inherently unreliable”
It’s a letter to the editor, but it’s got links to the papers mentioned.
They should have titled that the ‘stating the obvious’ presentation.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-yAnyone for Ivermectin? It seems the research is, um, a bit flaky.
“The lesson of ivermectin: meta-analyses based on summary data alone are inherently unreliable”
It’s a letter to the editor, but it’s got links to the papers mentioned.
They should have titled that the ‘stating the obvious’ presentation.
Obviously I chased that after listening to one of the Skeptics lectures today. But I had somehow missed the news that one of the big studies was actually shown to be pretty much all made up numbers.
Unfortunately a graphical table will not upload properly but here’s the article on its own:
…
Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients, but only those with worms
An anti-parasite drug’s benefit is limited to places with lots of parasites
Nov 18th 2021
“This is coming,” crowed Andrew Hill, the lead author of an unreviewed meta-analysis looking at whether ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, was helpful for treating covid-19. “Get prepared, get supplies, get ready to approve it,” advised Dr Hill, a visiting fellow at the University of Liverpool.
Such advocacy proved far too optimistic. One of the papers cited in the report was withdrawn because its data were fraudulent; the report itself was retracted as well. Two of the largest and most rigorous randomised controlled trials also found no evidence the drug was helpful. As a result, ivermectin has never become part of the standard of care for covid-19.
Yet ivermectin’s advocates insist that there is solid science demonstrating the drug’s efficacy. One well-documented website lists and links to 65 different papers on the subject, many of which, on the surface, seem to support this claim. Could this many studies all be wrong? Recent analysis by Avi Bitterman, a dermatologist in New York, and Scott Alexander, a prominent blogger, suggests that the answer is nuanced. Ivermectin probably does help one subset of covid-19 patients: those who are also infected by the worms it was designed to fight.
Wading through the papers whose methodologies appeared sound, Dr Bitterman noticed that the studies that looked best for ivermectin tended to cluster in regions with high rates of infections by strongyloides, a parasitic worm. Common in much of Africa, Asia and Latin America, strongyloides can cause, among other things, diarrhoea, fatigue and weight loss. However, they only pose a graver threat if their numbers grow out of control. Such “hyper-infection”, which is often fatal, becomes far more likely if a patient is receiving corticosteroids, which both suppress the immune system and appear to make female worms more fertile. And dexamethasone, a corticosteroid, is now a standard treatment for severe covid-19, because it prevents the immune system from going into overdrive and attacking the body’s own cells.
Building on observations by David Boulware, a professor of medicine at the University of Minnesota, Dr Bitterman concluded that strongyloides may account for the conflicting results of studies about the effectiveness of ivermectin as a treatment for covid-19. In trials conducted in countries where the parasites are common, many people could have both covid-19 and strongyloides infections. Covid-19 might already have weakened their bodies’ defences against the worms; treating the coronavirus with corticosteroids would let the parasites run wild.
In the groups who received ivermectin during trials, the drug would keep strongyloides in check. But patients in control groups would be left at the worms’ mercy. This would make it look as if ivermectin were preventing deaths caused solely by covid-19, when in fact it was preventing those caused by the parasites or by a combination of the two infections. This mechanism would explain why most studies conducted in places where strongyloides are rare showed no benefit from taking ivermectin. “Ivermectin doesn’t treat covid,” Dr Bitterman wrote. “It treats parasites (shocker) that kill people when they get steroids that treat covid.” He concluded that “taking strongyloides endemic populations, putting them into a control group with corticosteroids is a death sentence”.
In July 2020 a group of doctors argued in the Journal of the American Medical Association that it was “reasonable to consider presumptive treatment with ivermectin for moderate- to high-risk patients not previously tested or treated for strongyloides”, and said that the risk of infection by the worms in covid-19 patients should be “based on factors such as country of origin and long-term residence”. The World Health Organisation also recommends ivermectin in this context. However, most people in rich Western countries like America—where demand for ivermectin, driven by advocates on social media, is so high that some people have resorted to taking the equine version of the drug—do not fit this description. At least when treating patients who have never been to countries with widespread strongyloides, the evidence suggests that mainstream doctors in such places are right to avoid prescribing ivermectin.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms?
Media release
WA hospital crisis a result of vaccine: Palmer
Western Australia’s hospital crisis is a result of mandatory vaccinations according to United Australia Party Chairman Clive Palmer.
“WA hospitals aren’t coping with patient levels and Premier Mark McGowan says he’s not sure why,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The State’s health system is being inundated by patients with symptoms he can’t explain at a time he has accelerated his vaccine role out.
“There isn’t a COVID problem in WA and nothing else has changed so he needs to recognise the system failure of hospitals is a result of vaccines.
“The Premier knows we don’t have the required one, three or five-year safety data for the use of this vaccine on humans or animals, and there has been no testing on pregnant women,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The rate of hospitalisations in WA is unprecedented. I call on the Prime Minister and all Premiers to stop mandatory vaccinations.
“How can they allow the forced rollout of a vaccine on the Australian public without safety data. Do these politicians not remember the tragedies of Thalidomide, developed in the 1950s by German pharmaceutical company Grunenthal?
“The side effects resulted and thousands of cases of severe birth defects, miscarriages and other health problems.
“The Government is treating its citizens as guineapigs for the benefit of profits to large pharmaceutical companies who have been exempted of any future damages
“Australians can’t trust the Liberals, Labor or Greens again,’’ Mr Palmer said.
JudgeMental said:
Media releaseWA hospital crisis a result of vaccine: Palmer
Western Australia’s hospital crisis is a result of mandatory vaccinations according to United Australia Party Chairman Clive Palmer.
“WA hospitals aren’t coping with patient levels and Premier Mark McGowan says he’s not sure why,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The State’s health system is being inundated by patients with symptoms he can’t explain at a time he has accelerated his vaccine role out.“There isn’t a COVID problem in WA and nothing else has changed so he needs to recognise the system failure of hospitals is a result of vaccines.
“The Premier knows we don’t have the required one, three or five-year safety data for the use of this vaccine on humans or animals, and there has been no testing on pregnant women,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The rate of hospitalisations in WA is unprecedented. I call on the Prime Minister and all Premiers to stop mandatory vaccinations.
“How can they allow the forced rollout of a vaccine on the Australian public without safety data. Do these politicians not remember the tragedies of Thalidomide, developed in the 1950s by German pharmaceutical company Grunenthal?
“The side effects resulted and thousands of cases of severe birth defects, miscarriages and other health problems.
“The Government is treating its citizens as guineapigs for the benefit of profits to large pharmaceutical companies who have been exempted of any future damages“Australians can’t trust the Liberals, Labor or Greens again,’’ Mr Palmer said.
On the other hand, any State health system that hires the fuckwit who was in charge of medical governance when Dr Patel was dicking around at Bundaberg deserves whatever it gets.
I’ve had too much to drink to remember the goober’s name right now.
JudgeMental said:
Media releaseWA hospital crisis a result of vaccine: Palmer
Western Australia’s hospital crisis is a result of mandatory vaccinations according to United Australia Party Chairman Clive Palmer.
“WA hospitals aren’t coping with patient levels and Premier Mark McGowan says he’s not sure why,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The State’s health system is being inundated by patients with symptoms he can’t explain at a time he has accelerated his vaccine role out.“There isn’t a COVID problem in WA and nothing else has changed so he needs to recognise the system failure of hospitals is a result of vaccines.
“The Premier knows we don’t have the required one, three or five-year safety data for the use of this vaccine on humans or animals, and there has been no testing on pregnant women,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The rate of hospitalisations in WA is unprecedented. I call on the Prime Minister and all Premiers to stop mandatory vaccinations.
“How can they allow the forced rollout of a vaccine on the Australian public without safety data. Do these politicians not remember the tragedies of Thalidomide, developed in the 1950s by German pharmaceutical company Grunenthal?
“The side effects resulted and thousands of cases of severe birth defects, miscarriages and other health problems.
“The Government is treating its citizens as guineapigs for the benefit of profits to large pharmaceutical companies who have been exempted of any future damages“Australians can’t trust the Liberals, Labor or Greens again,’’ Mr Palmer said.
Australians cant trust Palmer.
Tau.Neutrino said:
JudgeMental said:
Media releaseWA hospital crisis a result of vaccine: Palmer
Western Australia’s hospital crisis is a result of mandatory vaccinations according to United Australia Party Chairman Clive Palmer.
“WA hospitals aren’t coping with patient levels and Premier Mark McGowan says he’s not sure why,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The State’s health system is being inundated by patients with symptoms he can’t explain at a time he has accelerated his vaccine role out.“There isn’t a COVID problem in WA and nothing else has changed so he needs to recognise the system failure of hospitals is a result of vaccines.
“The Premier knows we don’t have the required one, three or five-year safety data for the use of this vaccine on humans or animals, and there has been no testing on pregnant women,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The rate of hospitalisations in WA is unprecedented. I call on the Prime Minister and all Premiers to stop mandatory vaccinations.
“How can they allow the forced rollout of a vaccine on the Australian public without safety data. Do these politicians not remember the tragedies of Thalidomide, developed in the 1950s by German pharmaceutical company Grunenthal?
“The side effects resulted and thousands of cases of severe birth defects, miscarriages and other health problems.
“The Government is treating its citizens as guineapigs for the benefit of profits to large pharmaceutical companies who have been exempted of any future damages“Australians can’t trust the Liberals, Labor or Greens again,’’ Mr Palmer said.
Australians cant trust Palmer.
Its very difficult to trust a billionaire who wants to sideswipe health authorities.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Unfortunately a graphical table will not upload properly but here’s the article on its own:…
Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients, but only those with worms
An anti-parasite drug’s benefit is limited to places with lots of parasites
Nov 18th 2021“This is coming,” crowed Andrew Hill, the lead author of an unreviewed meta-analysis looking at whether ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, was helpful for treating covid-19. “Get prepared, get supplies, get ready to approve it,” advised Dr Hill, a visiting fellow at the University of Liverpool.
Such advocacy proved far too optimistic. One of the papers cited in the report was withdrawn because its data were fraudulent; the report itself was retracted as well. Two of the largest and most rigorous randomised controlled trials also found no evidence the drug was helpful. As a result, ivermectin has never become part of the standard of care for covid-19.
Yet ivermectin’s advocates insist that there is solid science demonstrating the drug’s efficacy. One well-documented website lists and links to 65 different papers on the subject, many of which, on the surface, seem to support this claim. Could this many studies all be wrong? Recent analysis by Avi Bitterman, a dermatologist in New York, and Scott Alexander, a prominent blogger, suggests that the answer is nuanced. Ivermectin probably does help one subset of covid-19 patients: those who are also infected by the worms it was designed to fight.
Wading through the papers whose methodologies appeared sound, Dr Bitterman noticed that the studies that looked best for ivermectin tended to cluster in regions with high rates of infections by strongyloides, a parasitic worm. Common in much of Africa, Asia and Latin America, strongyloides can cause, among other things, diarrhoea, fatigue and weight loss. However, they only pose a graver threat if their numbers grow out of control. Such “hyper-infection”, which is often fatal, becomes far more likely if a patient is receiving corticosteroids, which both suppress the immune system and appear to make female worms more fertile. And dexamethasone, a corticosteroid, is now a standard treatment for severe covid-19, because it prevents the immune system from going into overdrive and attacking the body’s own cells.
Building on observations by David Boulware, a professor of medicine at the University of Minnesota, Dr Bitterman concluded that strongyloides may account for the conflicting results of studies about the effectiveness of ivermectin as a treatment for covid-19. In trials conducted in countries where the parasites are common, many people could have both covid-19 and strongyloides infections. Covid-19 might already have weakened their bodies’ defences against the worms; treating the coronavirus with corticosteroids would let the parasites run wild.
In the groups who received ivermectin during trials, the drug would keep strongyloides in check. But patients in control groups would be left at the worms’ mercy. This would make it look as if ivermectin were preventing deaths caused solely by covid-19, when in fact it was preventing those caused by the parasites or by a combination of the two infections. This mechanism would explain why most studies conducted in places where strongyloides are rare showed no benefit from taking ivermectin. “Ivermectin doesn’t treat covid,” Dr Bitterman wrote. “It treats parasites (shocker) that kill people when they get steroids that treat covid.” He concluded that “taking strongyloides endemic populations, putting them into a control group with corticosteroids is a death sentence”.
In July 2020 a group of doctors argued in the Journal of the American Medical Association that it was “reasonable to consider presumptive treatment with ivermectin for moderate- to high-risk patients not previously tested or treated for strongyloides”, and said that the risk of infection by the worms in covid-19 patients should be “based on factors such as country of origin and long-term residence”. The World Health Organisation also recommends ivermectin in this context. However, most people in rich Western countries like America—where demand for ivermectin, driven by advocates on social media, is so high that some people have resorted to taking the equine version of the drug—do not fit this description. At least when treating patients who have never been to countries with widespread strongyloides, the evidence suggests that mainstream doctors in such places are right to avoid prescribing ivermectin.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms?
I’ll come back and read this after Grantchester.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
JudgeMental said:
Media releaseWA hospital crisis a result of vaccine: Palmer
Western Australia’s hospital crisis is a result of mandatory vaccinations according to United Australia Party Chairman Clive Palmer.
“WA hospitals aren’t coping with patient levels and Premier Mark McGowan says he’s not sure why,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The State’s health system is being inundated by patients with symptoms he can’t explain at a time he has accelerated his vaccine role out.“There isn’t a COVID problem in WA and nothing else has changed so he needs to recognise the system failure of hospitals is a result of vaccines.
“The Premier knows we don’t have the required one, three or five-year safety data for the use of this vaccine on humans or animals, and there has been no testing on pregnant women,’’ Mr Palmer said.
“The rate of hospitalisations in WA is unprecedented. I call on the Prime Minister and all Premiers to stop mandatory vaccinations.
“How can they allow the forced rollout of a vaccine on the Australian public without safety data. Do these politicians not remember the tragedies of Thalidomide, developed in the 1950s by German pharmaceutical company Grunenthal?
“The side effects resulted and thousands of cases of severe birth defects, miscarriages and other health problems.
“The Government is treating its citizens as guineapigs for the benefit of profits to large pharmaceutical companies who have been exempted of any future damages“Australians can’t trust the Liberals, Labor or Greens again,’’ Mr Palmer said.
Australians cant trust Palmer.
Its very difficult to trust a billionaire who wants to sideswipe health authorities.
If everyone acted on bring in their own COVID medications a lot of people would be taking bleach.
Typical Palmer, trying to snub authorities. Arrogant prick.
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Unfortunately a graphical table will not upload properly but here’s the article on its own:…
Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients, but only those with worms
An anti-parasite drug’s benefit is limited to places with lots of parasites
Nov 18th 2021“This is coming,” crowed Andrew Hill, the lead author of an unreviewed meta-analysis looking at whether ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, was helpful for treating covid-19. “Get prepared, get supplies, get ready to approve it,” advised Dr Hill, a visiting fellow at the University of Liverpool.
Such advocacy proved far too optimistic. One of the papers cited in the report was withdrawn because its data were fraudulent; the report itself was retracted as well. Two of the largest and most rigorous randomised controlled trials also found no evidence the drug was helpful. As a result, ivermectin has never become part of the standard of care for covid-19.
Yet ivermectin’s advocates insist that there is solid science demonstrating the drug’s efficacy. One well-documented website lists and links to 65 different papers on the subject, many of which, on the surface, seem to support this claim. Could this many studies all be wrong? Recent analysis by Avi Bitterman, a dermatologist in New York, and Scott Alexander, a prominent blogger, suggests that the answer is nuanced. Ivermectin probably does help one subset of covid-19 patients: those who are also infected by the worms it was designed to fight.
Wading through the papers whose methodologies appeared sound, Dr Bitterman noticed that the studies that looked best for ivermectin tended to cluster in regions with high rates of infections by strongyloides, a parasitic worm. Common in much of Africa, Asia and Latin America, strongyloides can cause, among other things, diarrhoea, fatigue and weight loss. However, they only pose a graver threat if their numbers grow out of control. Such “hyper-infection”, which is often fatal, becomes far more likely if a patient is receiving corticosteroids, which both suppress the immune system and appear to make female worms more fertile. And dexamethasone, a corticosteroid, is now a standard treatment for severe covid-19, because it prevents the immune system from going into overdrive and attacking the body’s own cells.
Building on observations by David Boulware, a professor of medicine at the University of Minnesota, Dr Bitterman concluded that strongyloides may account for the conflicting results of studies about the effectiveness of ivermectin as a treatment for covid-19. In trials conducted in countries where the parasites are common, many people could have both covid-19 and strongyloides infections. Covid-19 might already have weakened their bodies’ defences against the worms; treating the coronavirus with corticosteroids would let the parasites run wild.
In the groups who received ivermectin during trials, the drug would keep strongyloides in check. But patients in control groups would be left at the worms’ mercy. This would make it look as if ivermectin were preventing deaths caused solely by covid-19, when in fact it was preventing those caused by the parasites or by a combination of the two infections. This mechanism would explain why most studies conducted in places where strongyloides are rare showed no benefit from taking ivermectin. “Ivermectin doesn’t treat covid,” Dr Bitterman wrote. “It treats parasites (shocker) that kill people when they get steroids that treat covid.” He concluded that “taking strongyloides endemic populations, putting them into a control group with corticosteroids is a death sentence”.
In July 2020 a group of doctors argued in the Journal of the American Medical Association that it was “reasonable to consider presumptive treatment with ivermectin for moderate- to high-risk patients not previously tested or treated for strongyloides”, and said that the risk of infection by the worms in covid-19 patients should be “based on factors such as country of origin and long-term residence”. The World Health Organisation also recommends ivermectin in this context. However, most people in rich Western countries like America—where demand for ivermectin, driven by advocates on social media, is so high that some people have resorted to taking the equine version of the drug—do not fit this description. At least when treating patients who have never been to countries with widespread strongyloides, the evidence suggests that mainstream doctors in such places are right to avoid prescribing ivermectin.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms?
I’ll come back and read this after Grantchester.
What science, an antiparasitic tablet for treating worm infections will treat people with worms, what a time to be alive.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Unfortunately a graphical table will not upload properly but here’s the article on its own:…
Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients, but only those with worms
An anti-parasite drug’s benefit is limited to places with lots of parasites
Nov 18th 2021“This is coming,” crowed Andrew Hill, the lead author of an unreviewed meta-analysis looking at whether ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, was helpful for treating covid-19. “Get prepared, get supplies, get ready to approve it,” advised Dr Hill, a visiting fellow at the University of Liverpool.
Such advocacy proved far too optimistic. One of the papers cited in the report was withdrawn because its data were fraudulent; the report itself was retracted as well. Two of the largest and most rigorous randomised controlled trials also found no evidence the drug was helpful. As a result, ivermectin has never become part of the standard of care for covid-19.
Yet ivermectin’s advocates insist that there is solid science demonstrating the drug’s efficacy. One well-documented website lists and links to 65 different papers on the subject, many of which, on the surface, seem to support this claim. Could this many studies all be wrong? Recent analysis by Avi Bitterman, a dermatologist in New York, and Scott Alexander, a prominent blogger, suggests that the answer is nuanced. Ivermectin probably does help one subset of covid-19 patients: those who are also infected by the worms it was designed to fight.
Wading through the papers whose methodologies appeared sound, Dr Bitterman noticed that the studies that looked best for ivermectin tended to cluster in regions with high rates of infections by strongyloides, a parasitic worm. Common in much of Africa, Asia and Latin America, strongyloides can cause, among other things, diarrhoea, fatigue and weight loss. However, they only pose a graver threat if their numbers grow out of control. Such “hyper-infection”, which is often fatal, becomes far more likely if a patient is receiving corticosteroids, which both suppress the immune system and appear to make female worms more fertile. And dexamethasone, a corticosteroid, is now a standard treatment for severe covid-19, because it prevents the immune system from going into overdrive and attacking the body’s own cells.
Building on observations by David Boulware, a professor of medicine at the University of Minnesota, Dr Bitterman concluded that strongyloides may account for the conflicting results of studies about the effectiveness of ivermectin as a treatment for covid-19. In trials conducted in countries where the parasites are common, many people could have both covid-19 and strongyloides infections. Covid-19 might already have weakened their bodies’ defences against the worms; treating the coronavirus with corticosteroids would let the parasites run wild.
In the groups who received ivermectin during trials, the drug would keep strongyloides in check. But patients in control groups would be left at the worms’ mercy. This would make it look as if ivermectin were preventing deaths caused solely by covid-19, when in fact it was preventing those caused by the parasites or by a combination of the two infections. This mechanism would explain why most studies conducted in places where strongyloides are rare showed no benefit from taking ivermectin. “Ivermectin doesn’t treat covid,” Dr Bitterman wrote. “It treats parasites (shocker) that kill people when they get steroids that treat covid.” He concluded that “taking strongyloides endemic populations, putting them into a control group with corticosteroids is a death sentence”.
In July 2020 a group of doctors argued in the Journal of the American Medical Association that it was “reasonable to consider presumptive treatment with ivermectin for moderate- to high-risk patients not previously tested or treated for strongyloides”, and said that the risk of infection by the worms in covid-19 patients should be “based on factors such as country of origin and long-term residence”. The World Health Organisation also recommends ivermectin in this context. However, most people in rich Western countries like America—where demand for ivermectin, driven by advocates on social media, is so high that some people have resorted to taking the equine version of the drug—do not fit this description. At least when treating patients who have never been to countries with widespread strongyloides, the evidence suggests that mainstream doctors in such places are right to avoid prescribing ivermectin.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms?
I’ll come back and read this after Grantchester.
What science, an antiparasitic tablet for treating worm infections will treat people with worms, what a time to be alive.
Madness. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone is trying to sell aspirin to cure Covid.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:I’ll come back and read this after Grantchester.
What science, an antiparasitic tablet for treating worm infections will treat people with worms, what a time to be alive.
Heh. I am but the humble messenger.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Unfortunately a graphical table will not upload properly but here’s the article on its own:…
Ivermectin may help covid-19 patients, but only those with worms
An anti-parasite drug’s benefit is limited to places with lots of parasites
Nov 18th 2021“This is coming,” crowed Andrew Hill, the lead author of an unreviewed meta-analysis looking at whether ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, was helpful for treating covid-19. “Get prepared, get supplies, get ready to approve it,” advised Dr Hill, a visiting fellow at the University of Liverpool.
Such advocacy proved far too optimistic. One of the papers cited in the report was withdrawn because its data were fraudulent; the report itself was retracted as well. Two of the largest and most rigorous randomised controlled trials also found no evidence the drug was helpful. As a result, ivermectin has never become part of the standard of care for covid-19.
Yet ivermectin’s advocates insist that there is solid science demonstrating the drug’s efficacy. One well-documented website lists and links to 65 different papers on the subject, many of which, on the surface, seem to support this claim. Could this many studies all be wrong? Recent analysis by Avi Bitterman, a dermatologist in New York, and Scott Alexander, a prominent blogger, suggests that the answer is nuanced. Ivermectin probably does help one subset of covid-19 patients: those who are also infected by the worms it was designed to fight.
Wading through the papers whose methodologies appeared sound, Dr Bitterman noticed that the studies that looked best for ivermectin tended to cluster in regions with high rates of infections by strongyloides, a parasitic worm. Common in much of Africa, Asia and Latin America, strongyloides can cause, among other things, diarrhoea, fatigue and weight loss. However, they only pose a graver threat if their numbers grow out of control. Such “hyper-infection”, which is often fatal, becomes far more likely if a patient is receiving corticosteroids, which both suppress the immune system and appear to make female worms more fertile. And dexamethasone, a corticosteroid, is now a standard treatment for severe covid-19, because it prevents the immune system from going into overdrive and attacking the body’s own cells.
Building on observations by David Boulware, a professor of medicine at the University of Minnesota, Dr Bitterman concluded that strongyloides may account for the conflicting results of studies about the effectiveness of ivermectin as a treatment for covid-19. In trials conducted in countries where the parasites are common, many people could have both covid-19 and strongyloides infections. Covid-19 might already have weakened their bodies’ defences against the worms; treating the coronavirus with corticosteroids would let the parasites run wild.
In the groups who received ivermectin during trials, the drug would keep strongyloides in check. But patients in control groups would be left at the worms’ mercy. This would make it look as if ivermectin were preventing deaths caused solely by covid-19, when in fact it was preventing those caused by the parasites or by a combination of the two infections. This mechanism would explain why most studies conducted in places where strongyloides are rare showed no benefit from taking ivermectin. “Ivermectin doesn’t treat covid,” Dr Bitterman wrote. “It treats parasites (shocker) that kill people when they get steroids that treat covid.” He concluded that “taking strongyloides endemic populations, putting them into a control group with corticosteroids is a death sentence”.
In July 2020 a group of doctors argued in the Journal of the American Medical Association that it was “reasonable to consider presumptive treatment with ivermectin for moderate- to high-risk patients not previously tested or treated for strongyloides”, and said that the risk of infection by the worms in covid-19 patients should be “based on factors such as country of origin and long-term residence”. The World Health Organisation also recommends ivermectin in this context. However, most people in rich Western countries like America—where demand for ivermectin, driven by advocates on social media, is so high that some people have resorted to taking the equine version of the drug—do not fit this description. At least when treating patients who have never been to countries with widespread strongyloides, the evidence suggests that mainstream doctors in such places are right to avoid prescribing ivermectin.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/11/18/ivermectin-may-help-covid-19-patients-but-only-those-with-worms?
I’ll come back and read this after Grantchester.
What science, an antiparasitic tablet for treating worm infections will treat people with worms, what a time to be alive.
I’ve read it now. Yes. But people have not really been thinking straight for a bit now.
Oh, and have we all noticed that reading posts in this thread is a lot easier at the moment?
buffy said:
Oh, and have we all noticed that reading posts in this thread is a lot easier at the moment?
The regular mouth frother taking a break?
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:I’ll come back and read this after Grantchester.
What science, an antiparasitic tablet for treating worm infections will treat people with worms, what a time to be alive.
I’ve read it now. Yes. But people have not really been thinking straight for a bit now.
I blame the covid vaccine for that.
buffy said:
Oh, and have we all noticed that reading posts in this thread is a lot easier at the moment?
Yes. Its different.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
Oh, and have we all noticed that reading posts in this thread is a lot easier at the moment?
The regular mouth frother taking a break?
So he said before he left.
Tau.Neutrino said:
buffy said:
poikilotherm said:What science, an antiparasitic tablet for treating worm infections will treat people with worms, what a time to be alive.
I’ve read it now. Yes. But people have not really been thinking straight for a bit now.
I blame the covid vaccine for that.
I blame the low level panic.
buffy said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
buffy said:I’ve read it now. Yes. But people have not really been thinking straight for a bit now.
I blame the covid vaccine for that.
I blame the low level panic.
Ah, yes, that, forgot about it.
:)
HEY Hey how’r‘y’al’, we heard someone was inviting us back for the Satireday Knight Party so here we are standby yo‘¡
Here’s some good shit, we love ABBA and BAAB and them all but look at the other bioterrorism they export, it’s Gold, it’s Platinum, it’s Smash Hit¡
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.44.2001996
Sweden occupied the largest portion, consistent with it being the major exporter.
Denmark and Sweden acted as exporters of SARS-CoV-2 to their Nordic neighbours.
Sweden had a greater frequency of exportation events among neighbouring Nordic countries.
FUCK CHINA¡ Always Infecting The World
captain_spalding said:
poikilotherm said:
Wuflu, case zero…
You’ll be hearing from the West Taiwanese authorities, poik, about your attempts to spread false comments and upset the social order.
e.g. “We solemnly warn you: If you keep being stubborn, with such impertinence, and continue this illegal activity, you will be brought to justice – is that understood?”
Speaking Of Taiwanese
Check Out How This Mainland Taiwan Failure To Live With COVID-19 Has Ended Up
Fkn Communists, No Pacific Island Democracy Could Do That
roughbarked said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/experts-worldwide-talk-living-with-covid-australia/100605030
I just read that^, the obliviated detail was that vaccine + crush covid and eliminate it works really well, where it has been done and worked really well
the program now is to eliminate any examples of where it works, and there’s no end to the recruiting for that
With delta there is an ever diminishing number of jurisdictions where elimination is working.
So it looks lie we are stuck with it and it is probably better to be concentrating on eliminating risk of the development of newer variations.
Very true, you know the best way of preventing LIFE from evolving¿
Oh wait that’s the same as preventing it from reproducing, oh¡
We mean, they’re correct, “Live And Die With Letting It Rip™®” only works if you ensure the virus continues to spread, so the following line from the article is a clear success.
Singapore is going through its most challenging period of the pandemic.
Let’s see how it’s all going¡
Bet you all those other autonomous CHINA regions not listed, like East Turkestan, Khoshut, Matsubaygate are concealing their true case numbers as well.
What Does That Mean Again Oh Wait
Oh Yes Endemic That’s Right
Surrender Now
Who Listens To These Damn WA Epidemiologists Anyway
Remember when the media would excoriate Labor states for blocking bioterrorist imports¿
Don’t Worry They Can Continue To Paint Democratic Anti-Health Protests In The Same Favourable Light As Marketing Does
SCIENCE said:
Remember when
Remember when air pollution was a good reason to close schools because of the risk to health and the small risk (maybe 5%) of cancer many years (maybe 50) down the track¿
Oh wait but if it’s a deadly infectious disease then students need education more than they need life and
Hospitals in the capital reported a spike in the number of patients with respiratory ailments being admitted following the increased air pollution. Dr Bobby Bhalotra, the vice-chairman of the department of chest medicine at Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, said along with patients with pre-existing respiratory conditions, they were seeing a number of post-COVID recovering patients.
check it out
New Delhi suspends coal-fired plants
nice play after screwing the COP26 coal agreement¡
You all wanted vaccine fun and games so let’s go, first the good news¡
Pfizer booster shot could offer protection for 9-10 months
Leaked research conducted by Israeli hospital indicates that third shot yields more antibodies, and that these antibodies are also better at preventing disease
The latest research follows a large-scale Israeli study published last month that showed that a third booster shot was 92% effective in preventing serious illness compared to those who received only two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine.
We mean 92% effective in preventing 25% of the worst cases, whatever, but compared to partial vaccination, then well damn¡ Must be doing something right.
https://fof.se/tidning/2005/8/artikel/hur-klarar-vi-en-varldsepidemi
All right, now for the excellent news¡
It’s in this article from 2005-12-01, where apparently vaccinating children to protect all age groups is a reasonable argument in favour of doing it,
Man hade denna säsong dåligt med influensavaccin och fann i en simulerad studie att vaccination av barn skulle kunna onödiggöra sjukhusvård för influensa hos alla åldersgrupper. Leif Gothefors föreslår att man faktiskt skulle kunna rekommendera att influensavaccinera småbarn under två år i en eller två säsonger för deras egen skull. Då slipper de riskera att bli allvarligt sjuka. – Och skolbarn skulle man kunna tänka sig att vaccinera för ”samhällets skull”, speciellt om det råder vaccinbrist, som det gör vid en pandemi, säger han.
but 15 years later and BOOM fuck’em, they should be kept clean and untainted by vaccines, that’s vaccines whether it be for their own sakes or others¡
Here Is Work Of Pure Genius, A Couple Of Brilliant Ideas For Making Money Pandemic Control, Even If They Miss The Princess Boat
—
One
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-020-00533-1.pdf
Wearable electronic devices, which allow physiological signals to be continuously monitored, can be used in the early detection of asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic cases of COVID-19.
Imagine that, imagine if there were Wearable Battery-Free Devices Which Allow Prevention Of Asymptomatic And Pre-Symptomatic Cases Of COVID-19¡
—
Two
https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2021/jul/instant-covid-sensor
An instant COVID-19 sensor made in Australia could help transform day-to-day management of the pandemic, protecting frontline workers and the wider community.
Sensor detects SARS-CoV-2 and variants on people’s breath Can be placed in a room or worn as a personal tag Instant COVID-19 detection reduces risk of asymptomatic spreading, to prevent outbreaks and recurring lockdowns
This is amazing, even more amazing than the idea that a Filter Could Trap SARS-CoV-2 And Variants From The Air, and that it Could Be Placed In A Room Or Worn As A Respirator, and especially that Instant COVID-19 Trapping Could Reduce Risk Of Any Airborne Spreading¡
But The Master Can
SCIENCE said:
A Couple Of Brilliant Ideas
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41928-020-00533-1.pdf
Wearable electronic devices, which allow physiological signals to be continuously monitored, can be used in the early detection of asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic cases of COVID-19.
Imagine that, imagine if there were Wearable Battery-Free Devices Which Allow Prevention Of Asymptomatic And Pre-Symptomatic Cases Of COVID-19¡
https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2021/jul/instant-covid-sensor
Sensor detects SARS-CoV-2 and variants on people’s breath Can be placed in a room or worn as a personal tag Instant COVID-19 detection reduces risk of asymptomatic spreading, to prevent outbreaks and recurring lockdowns
This is amazing, even more amazing than the idea that a Filter Could Trap SARS-CoV-2 And Variants From The Air, and that it Could Be Placed In A Room Or Worn As A Respirator, and especially that Instant COVID-19 Trapping Could Reduce Risk Of Any Airborne Spreading¡
Mask Wearing Cuts New Covid-19 Cases By 53%—It’s The Best Public Health Measure Against The Virus, Study Finds
Probably lies.
Mask-wearing is the single most effective public health measure at tackling Covid, reducing incidence by 53%, the first global study of its kind shows.
More Lies¡
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302
Well they would lie like that, researchers from Monash, that’s fucking Chairman Dan’s Police State.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/cervical-cancer-australia-federal-govt-elimination/100625630
Could Australia become the first country to eliminate cervical cancer? Experts say it’s possible
Did Someone Say Eliminate¿
Laugh Out Loud
Well at least they don’t mention barrier protection, only cultural and social barriers, or specifically trying to reduce transmission, but hey there’s also no What About The Economy¿¡
Oh no, wait, this is serious, this is important, this is … like … some kind of trope isn’t it¿
Damn, sellin’ distress there¡
SCIENCE said:
Laugh Out Loud
Oh no, wait, this is serious,
Fine we know you all can’t handle negativity so here are 3 more laughs for your fun and games see you all next week¡
Genius
The burnout is ‘absolutely real’: A look at the state of Australia’s nursing workforce amid labour shortage
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-19/australia-nurse-burnout-labour-shortage-supply-demand/100566430
Laugh Out Loud
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccine
Short answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
I wonder if these anti-vaxxers could choose to deliberately get covid and use that status as a second option for remaining in their employment?
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Yes.
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
One of the best comebacks I have seen was a facebook “friend” having a whinge about having to give up her job because she wasn’t going to get vaccinated because “You don’t know what’s in it”. A mutual friend reminded her of the time she ingested a whole bag of white powder she’d found in some nightclub toilets. Much hilarity and but-hurt ensued. :)
Dark Orange said:
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
One of the best comebacks I have seen was a facebook “friend” having a whinge about having to give up her job because she wasn’t going to get vaccinated because “You don’t know what’s in it”. A mutual friend reminded her of the time she ingested a whole bag of white powder she’d found in some nightclub toilets. Much hilarity and but-hurt ensued. :)
Here’s another good one.
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
Spiny Norman said:
Dark Orange said:
captain_spalding said:She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
One of the best comebacks I have seen was a facebook “friend” having a whinge about having to give up her job because she wasn’t going to get vaccinated because “You don’t know what’s in it”. A mutual friend reminded her of the time she ingested a whole bag of white powder she’d found in some nightclub toilets. Much hilarity and but-hurt ensued. :)
Here’s another good one.
Nice work.
:)
Michael V said:
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
Some rights are inalienable but people should be willing to put up with the consequences of their decisions and not sook like a child like these soon to be unemployed anti-vaxxers.
Michael V said:
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
Selfishness.
Dark Orange said:
Michael V said:
Michael V said:Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
Selfishness.
…combined with ignorance and stupidity.
Witty Rejoinder said:
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
I wonder if these anti-vaxxers could choose to deliberately get covid and use that status as a second option for remaining in their employment?
As the recommendation is still to have full a 2 dose vaccination even if you’ve had PCR confirmed COVID19, I suspect no-one would consider that. I’m not entirely clear why a natural infection (confirmed) isn’t considered to have primed the immune system.
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
captain_spalding said:She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
I wonder if these anti-vaxxers could choose to deliberately get covid and use that status as a second option for remaining in their employment?
As the recommendation is still to have full a 2 dose vaccination even if you’ve had PCR confirmed COVID19, I suspect no-one would consider that. I’m not entirely clear why a natural infection (confirmed) isn’t considered to have primed the immune system.
Because you need to have clinical trials before a vaccine is approved? Not sure on the ethics of infecting a group of people with a disease to prove it reduces the chance of reinfection…
furious said:
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I wonder if these anti-vaxxers could choose to deliberately get covid and use that status as a second option for remaining in their employment?
As the recommendation is still to have full a 2 dose vaccination even if you’ve had PCR confirmed COVID19, I suspect no-one would consider that. I’m not entirely clear why a natural infection (confirmed) isn’t considered to have primed the immune system.
Because you need to have clinical trials before a vaccine is approved? Not sure on the ethics of infecting a group of people with a disease to prove it reduces the chance of reinfection…
I was talking about the thousands of people in Australia who have had a positive PCR test in the last couple of years. There must be a lot of them now.
buffy said:
furious said:
buffy said:As the recommendation is still to have full a 2 dose vaccination even if you’ve had PCR confirmed COVID19, I suspect no-one would consider that. I’m not entirely clear why a natural infection (confirmed) isn’t considered to have primed the immune system.
Because you need to have clinical trials before a vaccine is approved? Not sure on the ethics of infecting a group of people with a disease to prove it reduces the chance of reinfection…
I was talking about the thousands of people in Australia who have had a positive PCR test in the last couple of years. There must be a lot of them now.
It doesn’t seem to confer long term protection. Most studies show having been infected and also vaccinated gives rather high surrogate markers of protection from future infection.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
furious said:Because you need to have clinical trials before a vaccine is approved? Not sure on the ethics of infecting a group of people with a disease to prove it reduces the chance of reinfection…
I was talking about the thousands of people in Australia who have had a positive PCR test in the last couple of years. There must be a lot of them now.
It doesn’t seem to confer long term protection. Most studies show having been infected and also vaccinated gives rather high surrogate markers of protection from future infection.
Where long term is how long? We were vaccinated quite early on (for Australia), and I’m not even 6 months out from my second vax until March. There must be people with “natural” immunity from a longer timescale – back as far as March 2020.
(Conference back on)
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
furious said:Because you need to have clinical trials before a vaccine is approved? Not sure on the ethics of infecting a group of people with a disease to prove it reduces the chance of reinfection…
I was talking about the thousands of people in Australia who have had a positive PCR test in the last couple of years. There must be a lot of them now.
It doesn’t seem to confer long term protection. Most studies show having been infected and also vaccinated gives rather high surrogate markers of protection from future infection.
^ This.
Bubblecar said:
Dark Orange said:
Michael V said:“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
Selfishness.
…combined with ignorance and stupidity.
Dunning-Kruger effect spilling over into social media groups?
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
Dark Orange said:Selfishness.
…combined with ignorance and stupidity.
Dunning-Kruger effect spilling over into social media groups?
Social media echo chambers?
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
captain_spalding said:She’s obviously not avoiding it because of a fear of needles.
I wonder if these anti-vaxxers could choose to deliberately get covid and use that status as a second option for remaining in their employment?
As the recommendation is still to have full a 2 dose vaccination even if you’ve had PCR confirmed COVID19, I suspect no-one would consider that. I’m not entirely clear why a natural infection (confirmed) isn’t considered to have primed the immune system.
The natural immunity fades like the vaccine’s efficacy does.
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
Dark Orange said:Selfishness.
…combined with ignorance and stupidity.
Dunning-Kruger effect spilling over into social media groups?
Yes, and MASSIVELY unfortunately.
My reckoning?
I reckon it’s pretty good that they’ve got the cooperation of 92% of the population (over 16 in NSW) with regard to this stuff. I reckon that’s pretty good.
They only managed 62% cooperation with the marriage equality debate and that didn’t even involve encouraging ya to have one, let alone forcing ya to.
There’ll always be dickwits, and you can rest assured, the ABC will find every one of ‘em.
Woodie said:
My reckoning?I reckon it’s pretty good that they’ve got the cooperation of 92% of the population (over 16 in NSW) with regard to this stuff. I reckon that’s pretty good.
They only managed 62% cooperation with the marriage equality debate and that didn’t even involve encouraging ya to have one, let alone forcing ya to.
There’ll always be dickwits, and you can rest assured, the ABC will find every one of ‘em.
They found some, seemingly, sensible people north of the border…
Why has there been a surge in Queenslanders getting their COVID-19 vaccinations?
furious said:
Woodie said:
My reckoning?I reckon it’s pretty good that they’ve got the cooperation of 92% of the population (over 16 in NSW) with regard to this stuff. I reckon that’s pretty good.
They only managed 62% cooperation with the marriage equality debate and that didn’t even involve encouraging ya to have one, let alone forcing ya to.
There’ll always be dickwits, and you can rest assured, the ABC will find every one of ‘em.
They found some, seemingly, sensible people north of the border…
Why has there been a surge in Queenslanders getting their COVID-19 vaccinations?
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Yes.
my impression was the ABC’s efforts there help everyone get incorporated into the global village, even WA residents
the ABC brings people together, it’s a wonderful apparatus that way
transition said:
the ABC brings people together, it’s a wonderful apparatus that way
That’s why the L/NP hates it so much.
It’s a far-reaching broadcaster, capable of precisely pointing out where the government is being stupid, and not always amenable to political pressure.
Could be dangerous, election-wise.
poikilotherm said:
buffy said:
furious said:Because you need to have clinical trials before a vaccine is approved? Not sure on the ethics of infecting a group of people with a disease to prove it reduces the chance of reinfection…
I was talking about the thousands of people in Australia who have had a positive PCR test in the last couple of years. There must be a lot of them now.
It doesn’t seem to confer long term protection. Most studies show having been infected and also vaccinated gives rather high surrogate markers of protection from future infection.
I have had some trouble finding any papers on “natural” immunity. Researchers seem to be concentrating on post vax immunity and even that is all over the place and confused even further by having so many different vaccines around now. Including mix and matching going on. This one is recent and attempts to address, as they put it “There are limited direct data on SARS-CoV-2 long-term immune responses and reinfection.” They used data on evolutionarily close corona viruses. And their apparently best guess is that “Reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 under endemic conditions would likely occur between 3 months and 5·1 years after peak antibody response, with a median of 16 months.” That is a huge time scale really.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00219-6/fulltext
Quite a bit of detail there. But they were not working with SARS-CoV-2 because of a lack of data.
Michael V said:
Michael V said:
Bubblecar said:
>Why Chantal has chosen to quit rather than get the COVID vaccineShort answer, ‘cos she’s a moron being given a platform by your ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-21/fears-covid-vaccine-mandate-to-lead-to-worker-shortage-in-wa/100617550
Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
no, rules don’t hold more libertarian societies together, agreement does, agreement requires discretion, agreement requires agreement, things happening at different levels by agreement/s
libertarian societies have a more self-organizing philosophy, they don’t function so much from the imposition of rules
you’ve used the speed limit analogy again I notice
the speed limit actually encourages people to travel very near or right on (and just over the speed limit) which very often required corrections including from speeds above the speed limit, it’s a terribly misleading analogy, the way you use it
captain_spalding said:
transition said:the ABC brings people together, it’s a wonderful apparatus that way
That’s why the L/NP hates it so much.
It’s a far-reaching broadcaster, capable of precisely pointing out where the government is being stupid, and not always amenable to political pressure.
Could be dangerous, election-wise.
I was being that-word-with-all-the-vowels-in-order, facetious
“I was being that-word-with-all-the-vowels-in-order, facetious”
facetiously ?
transition said:
Michael V said:
Michael V said:Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
no, rules don’t hold more libertarian societies together, agreement does, agreement requires discretion, agreement requires agreement, things happening at different levels by agreement/s
libertarian societies have a more self-organizing philosophy, they don’t function so much from the imposition of rules
you’ve used the speed limit analogy again I notice
the speed limit actually encourages people to travel very near or right on (and just over the speed limit) which very often required corrections including from speeds above the speed limit, it’s a terribly misleading analogy, the way you use it
I am not using it as an analogy, and don’t intend to. I am using as an example of a rule. If a copper catches you going over the speed limit, you may be penalised.
mmm not in order …
Thomo said:
mmm not in order …
Yes, there’s only two vowels in ‘order’.
Michael V said:
transition said:
Michael V said:“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
no, rules don’t hold more libertarian societies together, agreement does, agreement requires discretion, agreement requires agreement, things happening at different levels by agreement/s
libertarian societies have a more self-organizing philosophy, they don’t function so much from the imposition of rules
you’ve used the speed limit analogy again I notice
the speed limit actually encourages people to travel very near or right on (and just over the speed limit) which very often required corrections including from speeds above the speed limit, it’s a terribly misleading analogy, the way you use it
I am not using it as an analogy, and don’t intend to. I am using as an example of a rule. If a copper catches you going over the speed limit, you may be penalised.
and my point was the conforming effect inclined by speed limits encourages people to very often speed, if you drive at say the posted speed limit of 110km/h (right on it) then you invariably correct your speed from speeds above and below that
you are using it for comparison, as if it is in some way analogous, generalizing an idea of rules using the example, and wrongly in my opinion
transition said:
Michael V said:
transition said:no, rules don’t hold more libertarian societies together, agreement does, agreement requires discretion, agreement requires agreement, things happening at different levels by agreement/s
libertarian societies have a more self-organizing philosophy, they don’t function so much from the imposition of rules
you’ve used the speed limit analogy again I notice
the speed limit actually encourages people to travel very near or right on (and just over the speed limit) which very often required corrections including from speeds above the speed limit, it’s a terribly misleading analogy, the way you use it
I am not using it as an analogy, and don’t intend to. I am using as an example of a rule. If a copper catches you going over the speed limit, you may be penalised.
and my point was the conforming effect inclined by speed limits encourages people to very often speed, if you drive at say the posted speed limit of 110km/h (right on it) then you invariably correct your speed from speeds above and below that
you are using it for comparison, as if it is in some way analogous, generalizing an idea of rules using the example, and wrongly in my opinion
Perhaps you are overthinking my intention.
Michael V said:
transition said:
Michael V said:I am not using it as an analogy, and don’t intend to. I am using as an example of a rule. If a copper catches you going over the speed limit, you may be penalised.
and my point was the conforming effect inclined by speed limits encourages people to very often speed, if you drive at say the posted speed limit of 110km/h (right on it) then you invariably correct your speed from speeds above and below that
you are using it for comparison, as if it is in some way analogous, generalizing an idea of rules using the example, and wrongly in my opinion
Perhaps you are overthinking my intention.
LOL. S’if.
Michael V said:
transition said:
Michael V said:I am not using it as an analogy, and don’t intend to. I am using as an example of a rule. If a copper catches you going over the speed limit, you may be penalised.
and my point was the conforming effect inclined by speed limits encourages people to very often speed, if you drive at say the posted speed limit of 110km/h (right on it) then you invariably correct your speed from speeds above and below that
you are using it for comparison, as if it is in some way analogous, generalizing an idea of rules using the example, and wrongly in my opinion
Perhaps you are overthinking my intention.
perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
transition said:
Michael V said:
transition said:and my point was the conforming effect inclined by speed limits encourages people to very often speed, if you drive at say the posted speed limit of 110km/h (right on it) then you invariably correct your speed from speeds above and below that
you are using it for comparison, as if it is in some way analogous, generalizing an idea of rules using the example, and wrongly in my opinion
Perhaps you are overthinking my intention.
perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
Perhaps I was, too.
Could you please explain to me where I was wrong?
Remember, I am but a dumb geologist. Simple sentences and one concept per sentence helps to explain things to me.
transition said:
perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
captain_spalding said:
transition said:perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
In a modern technologically advanced world no human can be truly self-sufficient and independent. Life in complex systems like towns and cities requires rules. The more complex the society, the more rules there are.
ABC News:
‘We’ll have to wait and see’: Djokovic non-committal about Australian Open after ATP Finals loss
World number one Novak Djokovic’s season is over with a loss at the ATP Finals — and the Serbian says he has not made up his mind whether he will play at the Australian Open.’
At this point,the Victorian Health Minister should say something like. “well, i’ve made up my mind: the dickhead either gets vaccinated, or he’s not getting into Victoria, let alone the tournament’.
captain_spalding said:
ABC News:‘We’ll have to wait and see’: Djokovic non-committal about Australian Open after ATP Finals loss
World number one Novak Djokovic’s season is over with a loss at the ATP Finals — and the Serbian says he has not made up his mind whether he will play at the Australian Open.’At this point,the Victorian Health Minister should say something like. “well, i’ve made up my mind: the dickhead either gets vaccinated, or he’s not getting into Victoria, let alone the tournament’.
The tournament director said something similar, but more generalised yesterday, IIRC. All competitors need to be fully vaccinated in order to enter.
captain_spalding said:
At this point,the Victorian Health Minister should say something like. “well, i’ve made up my mind: the dickhead either gets vaccinated, or he’s not getting into Victoria, let alone the tournament’.
I think that would be very fair and reasonable.
transition said:
Michael V said:
Michael V said:Yes.
“They’ve said: ‘well, now it’s an issue of (you) interfering with my rights, and I’m simply not going to put up with it’.
I find this weird. It seems some people have a notion that they are allowed to anything they want to. They are not. One can’t go around killing people. One is not permitted to drive over the speed limit, to steal stuff, etc. Hundreds of rules limiting what one can do. These rules hold society together.
Why then are people taking this stance?
no, rules don’t hold more libertarian societies together, agreement does, agreement requires discretion, agreement requires agreement, things happening at different levels by agreement/s
libertarian societies have a more self-organizing philosophy, they don’t function so much from the imposition of rules
you’ve used the speed limit analogy again I notice
the speed limit actually encourages people to travel very near or right on (and just over the speed limit) which very often required corrections including from speeds above the speed limit, it’s a terribly misleading analogy, the way you use it
What is a rule but an agreement?
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
ABC News:‘We’ll have to wait and see’: Djokovic non-committal about Australian Open after ATP Finals loss
World number one Novak Djokovic’s season is over with a loss at the ATP Finals — and the Serbian says he has not made up his mind whether he will play at the Australian Open.’At this point,the Victorian Health Minister should say something like. “well, i’ve made up my mind: the dickhead either gets vaccinated, or he’s not getting into Victoria, let alone the tournament’.
The tournament director said something similar, but more generalised yesterday, IIRC. All competitors need to be fully vaccinated in order to enter.
……. and if they let him in, non-vaxxed, status “unknown”, it won’t be worth the effort. He’ll get boooed to the shithouse.
Michael V said:
Simple sentences and one concept per sentence helps to explain things to me.
I make that at least two concepts there :)
The Rev Dodgson said:
Michael V said:Simple sentences and one concept per sentence helps to explain things to me.
I make that at least two concepts there :)
That’s probably why I am often misunderstood. I’m not immune from complex writing.
Michael V said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Michael V said:Simple sentences and one concept per sentence helps to explain things to me.
I make that at least two concepts there :)
That’s probably why I am often misunderstood. I’m not immune from complex writing.
you’re imagining it.
JudgeMental said:
Michael V said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I make that at least two concepts there :)
That’s probably why I am often misunderstood. I’m not immune from complex writing.
you’re imagining it.
i see what you did there…
JudgeMental said:
Michael V said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I make that at least two concepts there :)
That’s probably why I am often misunderstood. I’m not immune from complex writing.
you’re imagining it.
I think we can say that the number of times MV’s words are more complex than transition’s is very close to 1/(almost infinity).
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/21/craig-kelly-awarded-australian-skeptics-bent-spoon-gong-for-spreading-covid-misinformation
JudgeMental said:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/21/craig-kelly-awarded-australian-skeptics-bent-spoon-gong-for-spreading-covid-misinformation
Saw that on the conference this morning.
Michael V said:
transition said:
Michael V said:Perhaps you are overthinking my intention.
perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
Perhaps I was, too.
Could you please explain to me where I was wrong?
Remember, I am but a dumb geologist. Simple sentences and one concept per sentence helps to explain things to me.
even whatever conformity arises from acts of discretion, consider it that way if you like
transition said:
Michael V said:
transition said:perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
Perhaps I was, too.
Could you please explain to me where I was wrong?
Remember, I am but a dumb geologist. Simple sentences and one concept per sentence helps to explain things to me.
even whatever conformity arises from acts of discretion, consider it that way if you like
And on that bombshell…
captain_spalding said:
transition said:perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
let me offer another proposition, put it another way, regard rules, to consider rules
discretion holds society together
transition said:
captain_spalding said:
transition said:perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
let me offer another proposition, put it another way, regard rules, to consider rules
discretion holds society together
It’s also often the better part of valour.
transition said:
captain_spalding said:
transition said:perhaps you were wrong when you said rules hold society together
But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
let me offer another proposition, put it another way, regard rules, to consider rules
discretion holds society together
Discretion with no boundaries, i.e. rules, is anarchy…
furious said:
transition said:
captain_spalding said:But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
let me offer another proposition, put it another way, regard rules, to consider rules
discretion holds society together
Discretion with no boundaries, i.e. rules, is anarchy…
Exactly. Thanks. I found myself unable to articulate that.
furious said:
transition said:
captain_spalding said:But rules do hold societies together.
As you say yourself, more libertarian societies are bound together by agreement. Agreement suggests common goals, and a consensus on strategies to achieve those goals. Those strategies unavoidably impose a degree of regulation on behaviour and actions. If members of the society don’t adhere to those strategies/rules, then they may endanger the reaching of the popular goals.
let me offer another proposition, put it another way, regard rules, to consider rules
discretion holds society together
Discretion with no boundaries, i.e. rules, is anarchy…
I think I already pointed to things that result in whatever conforming often, perhaps invariably, involve some level of discretion, if you consider whatever example or examples at the psychological level, the territory of thought if you will, involves discretion, thought space, operating space
thought requires discretion, is probably true as a generalization
transition said:
furious said:
transition said:let me offer another proposition, put it another way, regard rules, to consider rules
discretion holds society together
Discretion with no boundaries, i.e. rules, is anarchy…
I think I already pointed to things that result in whatever conforming often, perhaps invariably, involve some level of discretion, if you consider whatever example or examples at the psychological level, the territory of thought if you will, involves discretion, thought space, operating space
thought requires discretion, is probably true as a generalization
You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
captain_spalding said:
transition said:
furious said:Discretion with no boundaries, i.e. rules, is anarchy…
I think I already pointed to things that result in whatever conforming often, perhaps invariably, involve some level of discretion, if you consider whatever example or examples at the psychological level, the territory of thought if you will, involves discretion, thought space, operating space
thought requires discretion, is probably true as a generalization
You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
transition said:
captain_spalding said:
transition said:I think I already pointed to things that result in whatever conforming often, perhaps invariably, involve some level of discretion, if you consider whatever example or examples at the psychological level, the territory of thought if you will, involves discretion, thought space, operating space
thought requires discretion, is probably true as a generalization
You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
That suggestion presupposes that i’m able to discern what you were trying to say in those statements.
My intellect falls short of that, i fear.
transition said:
captain_spalding said:
transition said:I think I already pointed to things that result in whatever conforming often, perhaps invariably, involve some level of discretion, if you consider whatever example or examples at the psychological level, the territory of thought if you will, involves discretion, thought space, operating space
thought requires discretion, is probably true as a generalization
You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
And the circle is complete…
captain_spalding said:
transition said:
captain_spalding said:You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
That suggestion presupposes that i’m able to discern what you were trying to say in those statements.
My intellect falls short of that, i fear.
but you do understand, or give all the indications of understanding the propositions
thought requires discretion
and society is held together by discretion
transition said:
captain_spalding said:
transition said:I think I already pointed to things that result in whatever conforming often, perhaps invariably, involve some level of discretion, if you consider whatever example or examples at the psychological level, the territory of thought if you will, involves discretion, thought space, operating space
thought requires discretion, is probably true as a generalization
You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
Find an error in your word-salad?
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
captain_spalding said:You appear to be seeking validation of your generalisation about entire societies by now reducing your proposition to the level of individual thought.
The change in scale does not assist your position.
perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
Find an error in your word-salad?
if you like, swing that impressive working imagination of yours around to it, see how you go
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:perhaps, find an error in what I said, you can help me fix it
Find an error in your word-salad?
if you like, swing that impressive working imagination of yours around to it, see how you go
It’s not up to other people to interpret your musings when you time and again can’t make your point clear on your own.
First known COVID case was a Wuhan market vendor, scientist says
By Carl Zimmer, Benjamin Mueller and Chris Buckley
November 19, 2021 — 7.49am
New York: A scientist who has pored over public accounts of early COVID-19 cases in China says an influential World Health Organisation inquiry probably got the early chronology of the pandemic wrong.
The new analysis suggests that the first known patient sickened with the coronavirus was a vendor in a large Wuhan animal market, not an accountant who lived many kilometres from it.
The report, published on Thursday in the prestigious journal, Science, will revive, although certainly not settle, the debate over whether the pandemic started with a spillover from wildlife sold at the market, a leak from a Wuhan virology lab or some other way.
The search for the origins of the greatest public health catastrophe in a century has fuelled geopolitical battles, with few new facts emerging in recent months to resolve the question.
University of Arizona scientist Michael Worobey, a leading expert in tracing the evolution of viruses, came upon timeline discrepancies by combing through what had already been made public in medical journals, as well as video interviews in a Chinese news outlet with people believed to have the first two documented infections.
Worobey argues that the vendor’s ties to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, as well as a new analysis of the earliest hospitalised patients’ connections to the market, strongly suggest the pandemic began there.
“In this city of 11 million people, half of the early cases are linked to a place that’s the size of a soccer field,” Worobey said. “It becomes very difficult to explain that pattern if the outbreak didn’t start at the market.”
Several experts, including one of the pandemic investigators chosen by the WHO, said Worobey’s detective work was sound and that the first known case of COVID-19 was most likely a seafood vendor.
But some of them also said the evidence was still insufficient to decisively settle the larger question of how the pandemic began. They suggested that the virus probably infected a “patient zero” sometime before the vendor’s case and then reached critical mass to spread widely at the market.
Studies of changes in the virus’s genome — including one done by Worobey himself — have suggested that the first infection happened in roughly mid-November 2019, weeks before the vendor got sick.
“I don’t disagree with the analysis,” said Jesse Bloom, a virus expert at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Centre. “But I don’t agree that any of the data are strong enough or complete enough to say anything very confidently, other than that the Huanan Seafood Market was clearly a superspreading event.”
Bloom also noted that this was not the first time the WHO report, done in collaboration with Chinese researchers, was found to contain mistakes, including errors involving early patients’ potential links to the market.
“It’s just kind of mind-boggling that in all of these cases, there keep being inconsistencies about when this happened,” he said.
‘Mistake lies there’
Towards the end of December 2019, doctors at several Wuhan hospitals noticed mysterious cases of pneumonia arising in people who worked at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, a dank and poorly ventilated space where seafood, poultry, meat and wild animals were sold.
On December 30, public health officials told hospitals to report any new cases linked to the market.
Fearing a replay of severe acute respiratory syndrome, which emerged from Chinese animal markets in 2002, officials ordered the Huanan market closed, and Wuhan police officers shut it down on January 1, 2020.
Despite those measures, new cases multiplied through Wuhan.
Wuhan authorities said on January 11, 2020, that cases had begun on December 8. In February, they identified the earliest patient as a Wuhan resident with the surname Chen, who fell sick on December 8 and had no link to the market.
Chinese officials and some outside experts suspected that the initially high percentage of cases linked to the market might have been a statistical fluke known as ascertainment bias. They reasoned that the December 30 call from officials to report market-linked illnesses may have led doctors to overlook other cases with no such ties.
“At the beginning, we presumed that the seafood market may have the novel coronavirus,” Gao Fu, director of China’s Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, said in May 2020, according to China Global Television Network. “But it now turns out that the market is one of the victims.”
By the spring of 2020, senior members of the Trump administration were promoting another scenario for the origin of the pandemic: that the virus had escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which has a campus roughly 13 km away from the Huanan market, across the Yangtze River.
In January of this year, researchers chosen by the WHO visited China and interviewed an accountant who had reportedly developed symptoms on December 8. Their influential March 2021 report described him as the first known case.
But Peter Daszak, a disease ecologist at EcoHealth Alliance who was part of the WHO team, said that he was convinced by Worobey’s analysis that they had been wrong.
“That December the 8th date was a mistake,” Daszak said.
The WHO team never asked the accountant the date his symptoms began, he said. Instead, they were given the December 8 date by doctors from Hubei Xinhua Hospital, who handled other early cases but did not care for Chen. “So the mistake lies there,” Daszak said.
For the WHO experts, Daszak said, the interview was a dead end: The accountant had no apparent links to an animal market, lab nor a mass gathering. He told them he liked spending time on the internet and jogging, and he did not travel much. “He was as vanilla as you could get,” Daszak said.
Had the team identified the seafood vendor as the first known case, Daszak said, it would have more aggressively pursued questions like what stall she worked in and where her products came from.
This year, Daszak has been one of the strongest critics of the lab-leak theory. He and his organisation, EcoHealth Alliance, have taken heat for research collaborations with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Last month, the National Institutes of Health said EcoHealth was in breach of the terms and conditions of its grant for research on coronaviruses in bats.
While the doctors at Hubei Xinhua Hospital said the onset of the accountant’s illness had been December 8, a senior doctor at Wuhan Central Hospital, where Chen was treated, had told a Chinese news outlet that he developed symptoms around December 16.
Asked about Chen’s case, China’s National Health Commission said it stood by comments made by Liang Wannian, the leader of the Chinese side of the WHO-China investigation who led the interview with the Hubei Xinhua Hospital doctors.
Liang told a news conference in February of this year that the earliest COVID case showed symptoms on December 8 and was “not connected” to the Huanan market.
Errors and inconsistencies
In their report, the WHO experts concluded that the virus most likely spread to people from an animal spillover, but they could not confirm that the Huanan market was the source. By contrast, they said that a lab leak was “extremely unlikely”.
The report has come under fire for several errors and shortcomings. The Washington Post revealed in July that the report listed the wrong viral samples for several early patients — including the first official case — and mistakenly linked the first family cluster of cases to the Huanan market. The WHO promised to fix the errors, but they remain in the report on the organisation’s website. (The organisation said that it would ask the report’s authors if and how they would correct the mistakes.)
In May, two months after the report by the WHO and China was published, 18 prominent scientists, including Worobey, responded with a letter in Science complaining that the WHO team had given the lab-leak theory short shrift. Far more research was required, they argued, to determine whether one explanation was more likely than the other.
An expert on the origins of influenza and HIV, Worobey has tried to piece together the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic.
Reading a May 2020 study of early cases written by local doctors and health officials in Wuhan, he was puzzled to see a description that seemed like Chen: a 41-year-old man with no contact with the Huanan market.
But the study’s authors dated his symptoms to December 16, not December 8.
Then Worobey found what appeared to be a second, independent source for the later date: Chen himself.
“I got a fever on the 16th, during the day,” a man identified as Chen said in a March 2020 video interview with The Paper, a publication based in Shanghai. The video indicates that Chen is a 41-year-old who worked in a company’s finance office and never went to the Huanan market.
Official reports said that he lived in the Wuchang district in Wuhan, miles from the market.
The New York Times was not able to independently confirm the identity of the man in the video.
Along with his fever on December 16, Chen said he felt a tightness in his chest and went to the hospital that day. “Even without any strenuous exercise, with just a tiny bit of effort, like the way I’m speaking with you now, I’d feel short of breath,” he said.
Worobey said that the medical records shown in the video might hold clues to how the WHO-China report wound up with the wrong date.
One page described surgery Chen needed to have teeth removed. Another was a December 9 prescription for antibiotics referring to a fever from the day before — possibly the day of the dental surgery.
On the video, Chen speculated that he might have gotten COVID “when I went to the hospital” — possibly a reference to his earlier dental surgery.
Murky links
In Worobey’s revised chronology, the earliest case is not Chen but the seafood vendor, a woman named Wei Guixian, who developed symptoms around December 11.
(Wei said in the same video published by The Paper that her serious symptoms began December 11, and she told The Wall Street Journal that she began feeling sick on December 10. The WHO-China report listed a December 11 case linked to the market.)
Worobey found that hospitals reported more than a dozen likely cases before December 30, the day Wuhan authorities alerted doctors to be on the lookout for ties to the market.
He determined that Wuhan Central Hospital and Hubei Xinhua Hospital each recognised seven cases of unexplained pneumonia before December 30 that would be confirmed as COVID-19. At each hospital, four out of seven cases were linked to the market.
By focusing on just these cases, Worobey argued, he could rule out the possibility that ascertainment bias skewed the results in favour of the market.
Still, other scientists said it’s far from certain that the pandemic began at the market.
“He has done an excellent job of reconstructing what he can from the available data, and it’s as reasonable a hypothesis as any,” said Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, a virus expert at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University. “But I don’t think we’re ever going to know what’s going on, because it’s two years ago and it’s still murky.”
Alina Chan, a postdoctoral fellow at the Broad Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and one of the most vocal proponents of investigating a lab leak, said that only new details about earlier cases — going back to November — would help scientists trace the origin.
“The main issue this points out,” she said, “is that there’s a lack of access to data, and there are errors in the WHO-China report.”
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/first-known-covid-case-was-a-wuhan-market-vendor-scientist-says-20211119-p59aa4.html
China s probably going to stop buying coal from New York or Arizona now.
One thing is for certain, you can’t trust China’s word on this.
Witty Rejoinder said:
First known COVID case was a Wuhan market vendor, scientist says
By Carl Zimmer, Benjamin Mueller and Chris Buckley
November 19, 2021 — 7.49amNew York: A scientist who has pored over public accounts of early COVID-19 cases in China says an influential World Health Organisation inquiry probably got the early chronology of the pandemic wrong.
The new analysis suggests that the first known patient sickened with the coronavirus was a vendor in a large Wuhan animal market, not an accountant who lived many kilometres from it.
The report, published on Thursday in the prestigious journal, Science, will revive, although certainly not settle, the debate over whether the pandemic started with a spillover from wildlife sold at the market, a leak from a Wuhan virology lab or some other way.
The search for the origins of the greatest public health catastrophe in a century has fuelled geopolitical battles, with few new facts emerging in recent months to resolve the question.
University of Arizona scientist Michael Worobey, a leading expert in tracing the evolution of viruses, came upon timeline discrepancies by combing through what had already been made public in medical journals, as well as video interviews in a Chinese news outlet with people believed to have the first two documented infections.
Worobey argues that the vendor’s ties to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, as well as a new analysis of the earliest hospitalised patients’ connections to the market, strongly suggest the pandemic began there.
“In this city of 11 million people, half of the early cases are linked to a place that’s the size of a soccer field,” Worobey said. “It becomes very difficult to explain that pattern if the outbreak didn’t start at the market.”
Several experts, including one of the pandemic investigators chosen by the WHO, said Worobey’s detective work was sound and that the first known case of COVID-19 was most likely a seafood vendor.
But some of them also said the evidence was still insufficient to decisively settle the larger question of how the pandemic began. They suggested that the virus probably infected a “patient zero” sometime before the vendor’s case and then reached critical mass to spread widely at the market.
Studies of changes in the virus’s genome — including one done by Worobey himself — have suggested that the first infection happened in roughly mid-November 2019, weeks before the vendor got sick.
“I don’t disagree with the analysis,” said Jesse Bloom, a virus expert at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Centre. “But I don’t agree that any of the data are strong enough or complete enough to say anything very confidently, other than that the Huanan Seafood Market was clearly a superspreading event.”
Bloom also noted that this was not the first time the WHO report, done in collaboration with Chinese researchers, was found to contain mistakes, including errors involving early patients’ potential links to the market.
“It’s just kind of mind-boggling that in all of these cases, there keep being inconsistencies about when this happened,” he said.
‘Mistake lies there’
Towards the end of December 2019, doctors at several Wuhan hospitals noticed mysterious cases of pneumonia arising in people who worked at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, a dank and poorly ventilated space where seafood, poultry, meat and wild animals were sold.On December 30, public health officials told hospitals to report any new cases linked to the market.
Fearing a replay of severe acute respiratory syndrome, which emerged from Chinese animal markets in 2002, officials ordered the Huanan market closed, and Wuhan police officers shut it down on January 1, 2020.
Despite those measures, new cases multiplied through Wuhan.
Wuhan authorities said on January 11, 2020, that cases had begun on December 8. In February, they identified the earliest patient as a Wuhan resident with the surname Chen, who fell sick on December 8 and had no link to the market.
Chinese officials and some outside experts suspected that the initially high percentage of cases linked to the market might have been a statistical fluke known as ascertainment bias. They reasoned that the December 30 call from officials to report market-linked illnesses may have led doctors to overlook other cases with no such ties.
“At the beginning, we presumed that the seafood market may have the novel coronavirus,” Gao Fu, director of China’s Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, said in May 2020, according to China Global Television Network. “But it now turns out that the market is one of the victims.”
By the spring of 2020, senior members of the Trump administration were promoting another scenario for the origin of the pandemic: that the virus had escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which has a campus roughly 13 km away from the Huanan market, across the Yangtze River.
In January of this year, researchers chosen by the WHO visited China and interviewed an accountant who had reportedly developed symptoms on December 8. Their influential March 2021 report described him as the first known case.
But Peter Daszak, a disease ecologist at EcoHealth Alliance who was part of the WHO team, said that he was convinced by Worobey’s analysis that they had been wrong.
“That December the 8th date was a mistake,” Daszak said.
The WHO team never asked the accountant the date his symptoms began, he said. Instead, they were given the December 8 date by doctors from Hubei Xinhua Hospital, who handled other early cases but did not care for Chen. “So the mistake lies there,” Daszak said.
For the WHO experts, Daszak said, the interview was a dead end: The accountant had no apparent links to an animal market, lab nor a mass gathering. He told them he liked spending time on the internet and jogging, and he did not travel much. “He was as vanilla as you could get,” Daszak said.
Had the team identified the seafood vendor as the first known case, Daszak said, it would have more aggressively pursued questions like what stall she worked in and where her products came from.
This year, Daszak has been one of the strongest critics of the lab-leak theory. He and his organisation, EcoHealth Alliance, have taken heat for research collaborations with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Last month, the National Institutes of Health said EcoHealth was in breach of the terms and conditions of its grant for research on coronaviruses in bats.
While the doctors at Hubei Xinhua Hospital said the onset of the accountant’s illness had been December 8, a senior doctor at Wuhan Central Hospital, where Chen was treated, had told a Chinese news outlet that he developed symptoms around December 16.
Asked about Chen’s case, China’s National Health Commission said it stood by comments made by Liang Wannian, the leader of the Chinese side of the WHO-China investigation who led the interview with the Hubei Xinhua Hospital doctors.
Liang told a news conference in February of this year that the earliest COVID case showed symptoms on December 8 and was “not connected” to the Huanan market.
Errors and inconsistencies
In their report, the WHO experts concluded that the virus most likely spread to people from an animal spillover, but they could not confirm that the Huanan market was the source. By contrast, they said that a lab leak was “extremely unlikely”.The report has come under fire for several errors and shortcomings. The Washington Post revealed in July that the report listed the wrong viral samples for several early patients — including the first official case — and mistakenly linked the first family cluster of cases to the Huanan market. The WHO promised to fix the errors, but they remain in the report on the organisation’s website. (The organisation said that it would ask the report’s authors if and how they would correct the mistakes.)
In May, two months after the report by the WHO and China was published, 18 prominent scientists, including Worobey, responded with a letter in Science complaining that the WHO team had given the lab-leak theory short shrift. Far more research was required, they argued, to determine whether one explanation was more likely than the other.
An expert on the origins of influenza and HIV, Worobey has tried to piece together the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic.
Reading a May 2020 study of early cases written by local doctors and health officials in Wuhan, he was puzzled to see a description that seemed like Chen: a 41-year-old man with no contact with the Huanan market.
But the study’s authors dated his symptoms to December 16, not December 8.
Then Worobey found what appeared to be a second, independent source for the later date: Chen himself.
“I got a fever on the 16th, during the day,” a man identified as Chen said in a March 2020 video interview with The Paper, a publication based in Shanghai. The video indicates that Chen is a 41-year-old who worked in a company’s finance office and never went to the Huanan market.
Official reports said that he lived in the Wuchang district in Wuhan, miles from the market.
The New York Times was not able to independently confirm the identity of the man in the video.
Along with his fever on December 16, Chen said he felt a tightness in his chest and went to the hospital that day. “Even without any strenuous exercise, with just a tiny bit of effort, like the way I’m speaking with you now, I’d feel short of breath,” he said.
Worobey said that the medical records shown in the video might hold clues to how the WHO-China report wound up with the wrong date.
One page described surgery Chen needed to have teeth removed. Another was a December 9 prescription for antibiotics referring to a fever from the day before — possibly the day of the dental surgery.
On the video, Chen speculated that he might have gotten COVID “when I went to the hospital” — possibly a reference to his earlier dental surgery.
Murky links
In Worobey’s revised chronology, the earliest case is not Chen but the seafood vendor, a woman named Wei Guixian, who developed symptoms around December 11.(Wei said in the same video published by The Paper that her serious symptoms began December 11, and she told The Wall Street Journal that she began feeling sick on December 10. The WHO-China report listed a December 11 case linked to the market.)
Worobey found that hospitals reported more than a dozen likely cases before December 30, the day Wuhan authorities alerted doctors to be on the lookout for ties to the market.
He determined that Wuhan Central Hospital and Hubei Xinhua Hospital each recognised seven cases of unexplained pneumonia before December 30 that would be confirmed as COVID-19. At each hospital, four out of seven cases were linked to the market.
By focusing on just these cases, Worobey argued, he could rule out the possibility that ascertainment bias skewed the results in favour of the market.
Still, other scientists said it’s far from certain that the pandemic began at the market.
“He has done an excellent job of reconstructing what he can from the available data, and it’s as reasonable a hypothesis as any,” said Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, a virus expert at the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia University. “But I don’t think we’re ever going to know what’s going on, because it’s two years ago and it’s still murky.”
Alina Chan, a postdoctoral fellow at the Broad Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and one of the most vocal proponents of investigating a lab leak, said that only new details about earlier cases — going back to November — would help scientists trace the origin.
“The main issue this points out,” she said, “is that there’s a lack of access to data, and there are errors in the WHO-China report.”
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/first-known-covid-case-was-a-wuhan-market-vendor-scientist-says-20211119-p59aa4.html
Didn’t someone here link to the paper last week? Or did I follow it up from somewhere else?
Yesterday’s Qld figures:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Find an error in your word-salad?
if you like, swing that impressive working imagination of yours around to it, see how you go
It’s not up to other people to interpret your musings when you time and again can’t make your point clear on your own.
yeah yeah, keep talking shit like that you might convince your imagined audience you didn’t butt in, unnecessarily, not that I expect everything to be necessary, or even most things
to me the proposition society is held together by rules is not really a thought, doesn’t encourage thought at all, what it does do is vanish the proposition, or propositions like society is held together by discretion, and probably renders something nearer the truth less likely discoverable
depends how you want to work on the subject really, approach it, I guess
my view is that if it were true society is held together by rules, that it were literally true, and discretion wasn’t at least considered equal, that that would send a society off a cliff of something resembling authoritarianism, if it became broadly true, in practice, on the ground, the dominant theory of what holds society together
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
First known COVID case was a Wuhan market vendor, scientist says
By Carl Zimmer, Benjamin Mueller and Chris Buckley
November 19, 2021 — 7.49amhttps://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/first-known-covid-case-was-a-wuhan-market-vendor-scientist-says-20211119-p59aa4.html
Didn’t someone here link to the paper last week? Or did I follow it up from somewhere else?
Yes. Poik IIRC.
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:if you like, swing that impressive working imagination of yours around to it, see how you go
It’s not up to other people to interpret your musings when you time and again can’t make your point clear on your own.
yeah yeah, keep talking shit like that you might convince your imagined audience you didn’t butt in, unnecessarily, not that I expect everything to be necessary, or even most things
to me the proposition society is held together by rules is not really a thought, doesn’t encourage thought at all, what it does do is vanish the proposition, or propositions like society is held together by discretion, and probably renders something nearer the truth less likely discoverable
depends how you want to work on the subject really, approach it, I guess
my view is that if it were true society is held together by rules, that it were literally true, and discretion wasn’t at least considered equal, that that would send a society off a cliff of something resembling authoritarianism, if it became broadly true, in practice, on the ground, the dominant theory of what holds society together
Define ‘discretion’ as you are using it?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin
Tales from the front line.
JudgeMental said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thinTales from the front line.
Here’s another one, from a doctor mate of mine in Victoria.
——————————
Fascinating few weeks.
Everywhere is busy; most ICUs have expanded outwards. It’s mostly manageable, and if it isn’t you just deal with it. This is what we are paid to do.
I am yet to place a fully vaccinated person on life support.
I thought I had seen it all but I am exposed to new levels of crazy every day.
Some dude who was teetering on the edge of coming to ICU decided to go home. Explained that he would very likely die should he go home but not having a bar of it. Can’t stop him as he is competent and it’s a hospital, not a jail. Son organised some oxygen for home – never going to be enough. Gets home and amazingly lasts an hour. Calls ambulance. By the time they got there, his oxygen level was so low his heart stopped. Dead.
Demands by relatives to not place loved ones on ventilators because “they kill”.
The usual demands for ivermectin continue.
One relative had obviously read up on google about ECMO (a relatively specialised machine that takes over the function of the heart and lungs – need enormous pipes to pump blood out and then back into the body). Asking if they could buy one and take their relative home on it. It’s hard to not laugh in these circumstances.
Death threats. Threats to hospitals, with at least one instance where family had brought stuff to burn down a hospital. One friend had to do a family meeting under police guard. Lots of security in the carparks now, particularly at night.
Then there are extreme acts of kindness. Some random fruiterer dropped off 3 boxes of mangoes, just because. A Sydney ICU sent us a box of macarons. The local Rotary club sent us tote bags full of crap.
Now that we’re opening up, there will probably be another wave that’ll keep us well and truly busy through December, and hopefully it’ll ease by mid to late January.
Spiny Norman said:
Demands by relatives to not place loved ones on ventilators because “they kill”.
The usual demands for ivermectin continue.
One relative had obviously read up on google about ECMO (a relatively specialised machine that takes over the function of the heart and lungs – need enormous pipes to pump blood out and then back into the body). Asking if they could buy one and take their relative home on it. It’s hard to not laugh in these circumstances.
Death threats. Threats to hospitals, with at least one instance where family had brought stuff to burn down a hospital. One friend had to do a family meeting under police guard. Lots of security in the carparks now, particularly at night.
Honestly, if something isn’t done about the kind of shit that people like Palmer and Kelly circulate, these idiot will be burning medical staff as ‘witches’ soon.
captain_spalding said:
Spiny Norman said:Demands by relatives to not place loved ones on ventilators because “they kill”.
The usual demands for ivermectin continue.
One relative had obviously read up on google about ECMO (a relatively specialised machine that takes over the function of the heart and lungs – need enormous pipes to pump blood out and then back into the body). Asking if they could buy one and take their relative home on it. It’s hard to not laugh in these circumstances.
Death threats. Threats to hospitals, with at least one instance where family had brought stuff to burn down a hospital. One friend had to do a family meeting under police guard. Lots of security in the carparks now, particularly at night.
Honestly, if something isn’t done about the kind of shit that people like Palmer and Kelly circulate, these idiot will be burning medical staff as ‘witches’ soon.
Yes, that shit has to stop.
Those two should be seen as political trolls.
and treated as such.
The Shovel:
‘Man waving ‘Trump 2020’ flag shocked to realise he is in Australia. In 2021. ‘
There’s a bit of truth in this.
‘I saw it on TV, so…’
Monkey see, monkey do.
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:It’s not up to other people to interpret your musings when you time and again can’t make your point clear on your own.
yeah yeah, keep talking shit like that you might convince your imagined audience you didn’t butt in, unnecessarily, not that I expect everything to be necessary, or even most things
to me the proposition society is held together by rules is not really a thought, doesn’t encourage thought at all, what it does do is vanish the proposition, or propositions like society is held together by discretion, and probably renders something nearer the truth less likely discoverable
depends how you want to work on the subject really, approach it, I guess
my view is that if it were true society is held together by rules, that it were literally true, and discretion wasn’t at least considered equal, that that would send a society off a cliff of something resembling authoritarianism, if it became broadly true, in practice, on the ground, the dominant theory of what holds society together
Define ‘discretion’ as you are using it?
I think I demonstrated an example of that when I offered an alternate proposition to what was said, that I could and did think it, and word it, that I questioned a presumed universal truth
the statement society is held together by rules is probably more normative than anything, doesn’t necessarily make it overly useful for understanding or describing reality, not impartially or objectively perhaps
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:yeah yeah, keep talking shit like that you might convince your imagined audience you didn’t butt in, unnecessarily, not that I expect everything to be necessary, or even most things
to me the proposition society is held together by rules is not really a thought, doesn’t encourage thought at all, what it does do is vanish the proposition, or propositions like society is held together by discretion, and probably renders something nearer the truth less likely discoverable
depends how you want to work on the subject really, approach it, I guess
my view is that if it were true society is held together by rules, that it were literally true, and discretion wasn’t at least considered equal, that that would send a society off a cliff of something resembling authoritarianism, if it became broadly true, in practice, on the ground, the dominant theory of what holds society together
Define ‘discretion’ as you are using it?
I think I demonstrated an example of that when I offered an alternate proposition to what was said, that I could and did think it, and word it, that I questioned a presumed universal truth
the statement society is held together by rules is probably more normative than anything, doesn’t necessarily make it overly useful for understanding or describing reality, not impartially or objectively perhaps
Oh dear…
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Define ‘discretion’ as you are using it?
I think I demonstrated an example of that when I offered an alternate proposition to what was said, that I could and did think it, and word it, that I questioned a presumed universal truth
the statement society is held together by rules is probably more normative than anything, doesn’t necessarily make it overly useful for understanding or describing reality, not impartially or objectively perhaps
Oh dear…
you could go back to the original proposition, actually add something in its defense, but I assume you have nothing to offer
is society held together by rules?
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:I think I demonstrated an example of that when I offered an alternate proposition to what was said, that I could and did think it, and word it, that I questioned a presumed universal truth
the statement society is held together by rules is probably more normative than anything, doesn’t necessarily make it overly useful for understanding or describing reality, not impartially or objectively perhaps
Oh dear…
you could go back to the original proposition, actually add something in its defense, but I assume you have nothing to offer
is society held together by rules?
That sentence makes sense even if you disagree with the contention. You are yet to provide a definition of of ‘discretion’ that makes similar sense and I’m not the only person who has said so.
Today’s Qld figures:
Tamb said:
Today’s Qld figures:
Zero cases won’t last too much longer 🥺
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Oh dear…
you could go back to the original proposition, actually add something in its defense, but I assume you have nothing to offer
is society held together by rules?
That sentence makes sense even if you disagree with the contention. You are yet to provide a definition of of ‘discretion’ that makes similar sense and I’m not the only person who has said so.
people exercise discretion all the time, do I do this or that, do I act on this that thought, or not act, do I persist with this thought, do I respond to this or that, or not respond, and the when, just me responding here, involves discretion, it’s quite possible I may not hit submit, i’ll see how it goes, how I feel about it shortly
fairly ubiquitous and routine I expect, certainly of self-aware creatures
transition said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
transition said:you could go back to the original proposition, actually add something in its defense, but I assume you have nothing to offer
is society held together by rules?
That sentence makes sense even if you disagree with the contention. You are yet to provide a definition of of ‘discretion’ that makes similar sense and I’m not the only person who has said so.
people exercise discretion all the time, do I do this or that, do I act on this that thought, or not act, do I persist with this thought, do I respond to this or that, or not respond, and the when, just me responding here, involves discretion, it’s quite possible I may not hit submit, i’ll see how it goes, how I feel about it shortly
fairly ubiquitous and routine I expect, certainly of self-aware creatures
Certainly people have discretion on how they choose to abide by familial conventions, rules and laws etc but this discretion is a reaction to them involving free-will. Does this discretion exist without choices in the first place? However people react to rules surely the existence of choices is evidence of the primacy in society of said conventions, rules and laws in the first place?
Alexander Charles Antic is an Australian politician who has been a Senator for South Australia since 2019. He is a member of the Liberal Party.
Alex Antic.
Is this a joke?
Well, the Netherlands have had fun with the lack of Covid restrictions.
What a mongrel.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-22/moranbah-man-to-appear-in-court-over-gp-abuse-case/100641002
poikilotherm said:
Well, the Netherlands have had fun with the lack of Covid restrictions.
If your definition of fun includes riots resulting in deaths.
“𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐖𝐞𝐬𝐭 𝐀𝐮𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧 21 Nov 2021
𝐂𝐎𝐕𝐈𝐃 𝐯𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐬: 𝐏𝐞𝐫𝐭𝐡 𝐚𝐧𝐭𝐢-𝐯𝐚𝐱 𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐨𝐫𝐠𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐬𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐦𝐨𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐫𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐚𝐥𝐞𝐝
“Failed political candidates, an electrician who has questioned COVID deaths and a woman who previously targeted the family of a NSW baby who died of whooping cough are among those organising and promoting WA anti-vaccination protests.
Anti-vaxxers in WA are using private Facebook groups to communicate and discuss ways to spread their messages while circumventing rules which can see groups that post false health information shutdown.
They then use social media to direct users to unmoderated chats on encrypted app Telegram.
In the groups they express bizarre beliefs including that the COVID jab is a bioweapon and that journalists and politicians are “paid by big pharma”.
Among those behind organising protests is Perth man Matty Dillon.
In one video posted this week Mr Dillon instructed other anti-vaxxers about how to spread their message while avoiding being shutdown by Facebook.
In the video he went on to discuss “bringing down” WA Premier Mark McGowan and making an effigy of him with a needle going through his head.
“My wife is making me something very special for Saturday. An effigy of Mark McGowan with the syringe poked through his head. So go and get f***ed Mark McGowan,” he said.
“We know what we’ve got to do. We’ve got to bring down Mark and actually we’ve got to bring down every single f***ing parasitical politician in this country.”
Mr Dillon, who has also praised the actions of Clive Palmer, said he was in touch with someone from the UK who was advising him on how to run covert social media channels.
Others involved in organising protests include electrician Mikele Fiorentino, whose name and number have been used to register protests.
In one of his social media comments he blamed clashes at other anti-vaxx rallies on police.
“Always the police trying to intimidate and causing issues as usual,” he said on one post.
In other posts he questioned COVID deaths.
“Died with Covid or from it?” he wrote on one post about a woman in her 30s who died after being diagnosed with the disease.
The admin of one of the other Facebook groups promoting Perth protests is Judy Wilyman. She was criticised by the medical profession after she was awarded a humanities PHD through the University of Wollongong for a thesis claiming collusion between the World Health Organisation and the pharmaceutical industry.
The thesis was criticised by doctors who described it as a conspiracy theory and questioned the academic rigour that led to her being awarded the PHD.
Dr Wilyman has also previously targeted the family of Dana McCaffery, who advocated for immunisations following her death from whooping cough.
The family were forced to issue a public statement asking for Dr Wilyman to leave them alone after she questioned their motives and falsely accused them of cashing-in on their 4-week-old daughter’s death.
She ran unsuccessfully for the Senate in the 2019 Federal election for WA, as a member of the anti-vaccination and anti-fluoride party.
Another failed political candidate involved in protests is DJ Aaron Malloy who ran in the 2017 State election.
Mr Malloy, who has MC’ed protests, rallied against the Family Court as part of his unsuccessful campaign, and at one point turned up as court dressed as a woman – claiming the system discriminated against men.
Mr Malloy has previously claimed on social media that most allegations of domestic violence relating to restraining orders are “false”, labelling it as a “fake domestic violence industry”.
“We see our rights being stolen everyday just as my children were five years ago,” he wrote in one post.
“My life is proof that the Government CANNOT be trusted”.
He has also posted memes comparing vaccine mandates to rape and slavery.
Those in social media groups promoting rallies do not however appear to have one coherent ideology.
Some claim they believe in natural medicines and alternative health whereas others claim vaccine mandates are part of tyrannical Government and we are currently in World War III.
Protests have also been promoted on social media by white supremacist group Proud Boys, who were also seen at Saturday’s rally in Perth.
In group chats members discuss how to get their message out, often calling on them to bombard Government social media posts encouraging vaccinations, with anti-vax rhetoric.“”
There’s surplus of crazies all over the globe.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-22/police-investigate-threats-against-politicians/100639224
Bubblecar said:
There’s surplus of crazies all over the globe.
unfortunately social media and the internet give them the opportunity to get in touch with each other amd coordinate their bullshittery.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-23/country-music-covid-cluster-emerges-in-hamilton/100642308
sarahs mum said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-23/country-music-covid-cluster-emerges-in-hamilton/100642308
And the rumours are rife! I had no idea anything was happening, but apparently the testing was going over the weekend. Yesterday Auntie Annie breathlessly told me there were 24 cases! I checked the official website and it was 6. Today it is 7, after updating. There has been some quick antibody testing stuff going on, which is a bit unreliable, so you have to wait for a PCR if you go positive on that. I have no idea where the 24 number came from.
buffy said:
sarahs mum said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-23/country-music-covid-cluster-emerges-in-hamilton/100642308
And the rumours are rife! I had no idea anything was happening, but apparently the testing was going over the weekend. Yesterday Auntie Annie breathlessly told me there were 24 cases! I checked the official website and it was 6. Today it is 7, after updating. There has been some quick antibody testing stuff going on, which is a bit unreliable, so you have to wait for a PCR if you go positive on that. I have no idea where the 24 number came from.
there may have been some exaggeration in the rumour mongering.
sarahs mum said:
buffy said:
sarahs mum said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-23/country-music-covid-cluster-emerges-in-hamilton/100642308
And the rumours are rife! I had no idea anything was happening, but apparently the testing was going over the weekend. Yesterday Auntie Annie breathlessly told me there were 24 cases! I checked the official website and it was 6. Today it is 7, after updating. There has been some quick antibody testing stuff going on, which is a bit unreliable, so you have to wait for a PCR if you go positive on that. I have no idea where the 24 number came from.
there may have been some exaggeration in the rumour mongering.
We can’t do our archery tomorrow – they’ve taken over our shed for the drive through testing again.
buffy said:
sarahs mum said:
buffy said:And the rumours are rife! I had no idea anything was happening, but apparently the testing was going over the weekend. Yesterday Auntie Annie breathlessly told me there were 24 cases! I checked the official website and it was 6. Today it is 7, after updating. There has been some quick antibody testing stuff going on, which is a bit unreliable, so you have to wait for a PCR if you go positive on that. I have no idea where the 24 number came from.
there may have been some exaggeration in the rumour mongering.
We can’t do our archery tomorrow – they’ve taken over our shed for the drive through testing again.
I’m also a bit puzzled as to why the only Tier 1 site declared is the Caledonian Hotel, when the actual music thing was at the golf club.
buffy said:
buffy said:
sarahs mum said:there may have been some exaggeration in the rumour mongering.
We can’t do our archery tomorrow – they’ve taken over our shed for the drive through testing again.
I’m also a bit puzzled as to why the only Tier 1 site declared is the Caledonian Hotel, when the actual music thing was at the golf club.
Probably because the original infector wasn’t at the golf club?
buffy said:
buffy said:
sarahs mum said:there may have been some exaggeration in the rumour mongering.
We can’t do our archery tomorrow – they’ve taken over our shed for the drive through testing again.
I’m also a bit puzzled as to why the only Tier 1 site declared is the Caledonian Hotel, when the actual music thing was at the golf club.
You’ll have to wait until our covid guru, Science, comes along, he’ll know.
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
buffy said:We can’t do our archery tomorrow – they’ve taken over our shed for the drive through testing again.
I’m also a bit puzzled as to why the only Tier 1 site declared is the Caledonian Hotel, when the actual music thing was at the golf club.
Probably because the original infector wasn’t at the golf club?
Well…the first sentence of the linked article says “Concerns are mounting after three people were hospitalised after contracting COVID-19 at a country music gig in western Victoria. “
Interesting article by Raina MacIntyre, who is NHMRC Principal Research Fellow, Head of the Biosecurity Program at the Kirby Institute, and Professor of Global Biosecurity at UNSW.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-23/fourth-covid-wave-in-europe-will-australia-follow/100640728
Going to be a long time before the Qld road border barricades come down if they stick to the 90% fully vaccinated target.
People in the border zones are getting very angry but the Qld government couldn’t give a toss because they don’t hold any seats in the border zones.
Michael V said:
Interesting article by Raina MacIntyre, who is NHMRC Principal Research Fellow, Head of the Biosecurity Program at the Kirby Institute, and Professor of Global Biosecurity at UNSW.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-23/fourth-covid-wave-in-europe-will-australia-follow/100640728
In the best forum tradition I haven’t read that piece yet, but I was thinking…4th wave? Haven’t we only had two so far? But we are in the third one at the moment. The first wave was only a ripple.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/
Sweden, on the other hand, has two waves and then a ripple so far. I tend to take more notice of the deaths than the cases. The deaths are definite (with a few provisos) but the case numbers are very open to glitches from lack of testing etc etc.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
German chancellor Angela Merkel’s husband has told of his astonishment that around a third of Germans are not vaccinated, blaming it in part on “a certain German laziness and complacency”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/nov/23/covid-news-live-india-records-smallest-daily-rise-in-cases-in-18-months-despite-festivals
Jeez, he’s a bit of a mongrel going straight to the well known stereotype of the Germans being lazy and complacent.
buffy said:
Sweden, on the other hand, has two waves and then a ripple so far. I tend to take more notice of the deaths than the cases. The deaths are definite (with a few provisos) but the case numbers are very open to glitches from lack of testing etc etc.
laugh out loud this country eh
Det Manzoor illustrerar nu är det stora problemet med invandring: det demokratiska kapitalet hos invandrare från diktaturer är ofta väldigt litet och många överför ickedemokratiska värderingar på sina barn.
I en demokrati är det naturligtvis ok att organisera motstånd
Jag antar nu att Manzoor fått denhär antidemokratiska uppfattningen med sig hemmifrån; att det på något sätt skulle vara ett problem att organisera motstånd mit en rådande politik. Den totalitära synen organiserade, kritiska gräsrötter är väldigt osvensk och odemokratisk
Det är dags för svenskarna att demokratisera inte bara första generationens invandrare utan även andra generationen. Demokratiska värderingar tar generationer att bygga och alla invandrarföräldrar kan inte bidra till det
Håll alltid ett öga på den demokratiska dimensionen. När jag gör det ser jag helt klart ett mönster där invandrade och deras barn oftare saknar demokratisk hänsyn.
Ta den diskussionen!
Demokrati är mycket mer än att gå och rösta var fjärde år. Det krävs att folk organiserar sig och driver sina egna intresse, som fackföreningar, patientorganisationer och sportföreningar är alla grundpelare i en demokrati. Att alla som fattar veslut ska kunna avsättas också
Demokrati förutsätter en demokratisk medvetenhet, en vilja till att organiserat bidra, en tradition som tar generationer att bygga.
Bland folk från icke-demokratiska länder, samt bland den ägande överklassen i sverige så finns det stora brister i denhär traditionen.
Och Manzoor är ett exempel på detta. Ett av många
In a democracy, of course, it is ok to organize resistance
I now assume that Manzoor has brought this anti-democratic view with him from home; that it would somehow be a problem to organize resistance with a prevailing policy. The totalitarian view organized, critical grassroots is very un-Swedish and undemocratic
It is time for the Swedes to democratize not only the first generation of immigrants but also the second generation. Democratic values take generations to build and not all immigrant parents can contribute to that
Always keep an eye on the democratic dimension. When I do that, I clearly see a pattern where immigrants and their children more often lack democratic consideration.
Take that discussion!
Democracy is much more than going and voting every four years. It is necessary for people to organize and pursue their own interests, as trade unions, patient organizations and sports associations are all pillars of a democracy. That everyone who makes a decision should also be able to be evicted
Democracy presupposes a democratic awareness, a willingness to make an organized contribution, a tradition that takes generations to build.
Among people from non-democratic countries, as well as among the owning upper class in Sweden, there are major shortcomings in this tradition.
And Manzoor is an example of this. One of many
