Date: 17/11/2021 09:20:40
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1816528
Subject: Fractional Calculus

Fractional Calculus

I read today, in New Scientist, an article about fractional calculus which said it was very useful in the analysis of behaviour of interacting materials with widely different properties, amongst other things.

It sounds like just the the thing somebody working with reinforced concrete analysis needs, but I had literally never heard of it before today.

So I wondered if anybody else here uses this fractional calculus thing in their work, or is it taught at high school level (or university) these days?

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:25:59
From: Woodie
ID: 1816530
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

The Rev Dodgson said:


Fractional Calculus

I read today, in New Scientist, an article about fractional calculus which said it was very useful in the analysis of behaviour of interacting materials with widely different properties, amongst other things.

It sounds like just the the thing somebody working with reinforced concrete analysis needs, but I had literally never heard of it before today.

So I wondered if anybody else here uses this fractional calculus thing in their work, or is it taught at high school level (or university) these days?

Fractional calculus, hey what but. I still struggle with addition and subtraction of single digit numbers when working with reinforced concrete.

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:27:34
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1816531
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

Woodie said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Fractional Calculus

I read today, in New Scientist, an article about fractional calculus which said it was very useful in the analysis of behaviour of interacting materials with widely different properties, amongst other things.

It sounds like just the the thing somebody working with reinforced concrete analysis needs, but I had literally never heard of it before today.

So I wondered if anybody else here uses this fractional calculus thing in their work, or is it taught at high school level (or university) these days?

Fractional calculus, hey what but. I still struggle with addition and subtraction of single digit numbers when working with reinforced concrete.

Better follow the yanks and stick to working in inches, rather than those evil mm things then.

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:28:32
From: sibeen
ID: 1816532
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

I’ve never heard of it.

I’ll also state, unequivocally, that wikipedia is absolutely the worst source for explaining any sort of maths. The people who write the articles obviously are extremely intelligent and have absolutely no idea how to go about getting complex concepts in mathematics across.

I’ve found this with every maths article on wikipedia.

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:30:51
From: Michael V
ID: 1816534
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

sibeen said:


I’ve never heard of it.

I’ll also state, unequivocally, that wikipedia is absolutely the worst source for explaining any sort of maths. The people who write the articles obviously are extremely intelligent and have absolutely no idea how to go about getting complex concepts in mathematics across.

I’ve found this with every maths article on wikipedia.

Harsh, but fair.

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:35:55
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1816536
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

sibeen said:


I’ve never heard of it.

I’ll also state, unequivocally, that wikipedia is absolutely the worst source for explaining any sort of maths. The people who write the articles obviously are extremely intelligent and have absolutely no idea how to go about getting complex concepts in mathematics across.

I’ve found this with every maths article on wikipedia.

I’m glad I’m not the only one then :)

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:39:34
From: furious
ID: 1816537
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

sibeen said:


I’ve never heard of it.

I’ll also state, unequivocally, that wikipedia is absolutely the worst source for explaining any sort of maths. The people who write the articles obviously are extremely intelligent and have absolutely no idea how to go about getting complex concepts in mathematics across.

I’ve found this with every maths article on wikipedia.

Yep…

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:40:54
From: furious
ID: 1816538
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

Michael V said:


sibeen said:

I’ve never heard of it.

I’ll also state, unequivocally, that wikipedia is absolutely the worst source for explaining any sort of maths. The people who write the articles obviously are extremely intelligent and have absolutely no idea how to go about getting complex concepts in mathematics across.

I’ve found this with every maths article on wikipedia.

Harsh, but fair.

Nice one…

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Date: 17/11/2021 09:56:48
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1816543
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

we learnt about it in Year 12 so indeed

anyway, as we’ve said, back in a week maybe

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Date: 17/11/2021 21:55:24
From: btm
ID: 1816802
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

I’ve got a philosophical issue with fractional calculus. The usually-cited derivation uses the Cauchy integral theorem, but proof of that theorem uses induction, which only applies to integers and can’t be used for rational or real numbers. Other proofs I’ve seen for fractional calculus assume the Cauchy theorem applies and proceed from there. Another approach is to take the Laplace or Fourier transform of the derivative in question; this suffers from the same problem as here: the proofs use induction, but that only applies to integers.

An alternative construction involves repeating the standard definition of the derivative, but delaying taking the limit:

then any rational, irrational, real, or even complex number can be used as n, and the limits applied. Alternatively, if h is very small (as is typical,) this last result can be taken to be a discrete approximation to the nth (n non-integer) derivative.

The problem with this approach is that delaying taking the limit until convenient gives the wrong answer; try finding the 5th derivative of , for example, using this formula.

Having said all that, I’ve found application in PID controllers (which I’ve used in solar power charge controllers) and audio controllers.

If you’re interested, have a look at http://cronetoolbox.ims-bordeaux.fr/ for a Matlab (and octave compatible) toolbox for using fractional calculus. The authors presented a paper at an IEEE conference; that paper’s available at sci-hub. Once again, their proofs involve Cauchy’s theorem.

If you really want to learn about fractional calculus, see if you can find the books An introduction to the fractional calculus and fractional differential equations, Miller K.S., Ross B., and The Fractional Calculus Theory And Applications Of Differentiation And Integration To Arbitrary Order, Oldham K B , Spanier J. I’ve got soft copies of these books (both djvu) and can forward them to you if you want them.

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Date: 17/11/2021 22:59:27
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1816816
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

btm said:


I’ve got a philosophical issue with fractional calculus. The usually-cited derivation uses the Cauchy integral theorem, but proof of that theorem uses induction, which only applies to integers and can’t be used for rational or real numbers. Other proofs I’ve seen for fractional calculus assume the Cauchy theorem applies and proceed from there. Another approach is to take the Laplace or Fourier transform of the derivative in question; this suffers from the same problem as here: the proofs use induction, but that only applies to integers.

An alternative construction involves repeating the standard definition of the derivative, but delaying taking the limit:

then any rational, irrational, real, or even complex number can be used as n, and the limits applied. Alternatively, if h is very small (as is typical,) this last result can be taken to be a discrete approximation to the nth (n non-integer) derivative.

The problem with this approach is that delaying taking the limit until convenient gives the wrong answer; try finding the 5th derivative of , for example, using this formula.

Having said all that, I’ve found application in PID controllers (which I’ve used in solar power charge controllers) and audio controllers.

If you’re interested, have a look at http://cronetoolbox.ims-bordeaux.fr/ for a Matlab (and octave compatible) toolbox for using fractional calculus. The authors presented a paper at an IEEE conference; that paper’s available at sci-hub. Once again, their proofs involve Cauchy’s theorem.

If you really want to learn about fractional calculus, see if you can find the books An introduction to the fractional calculus and fractional differential equations, Miller K.S., Ross B., and The Fractional Calculus Theory And Applications Of Differentiation And Integration To Arbitrary Order, Oldham K B , Spanier J. I’ve got soft copies of these books (both djvu) and can forward them to you if you want them.

Thanks btm. I’ll have a proper read tomorrow, a bit late for me at the moment.

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Date: 30/09/2023 18:46:36
From: btm
ID: 2080037
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

TRD, if you’re still interested in this, there’s an 8-volume set available called Handbook of Fractional Calculus with Applications. Volume 1 provides a good introduction, with applications in various fields (including Life and Social sciences) in subsequent volumes.

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Date: 30/09/2023 20:53:00
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2080071
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

btm said:


TRD, if you’re still interested in this, there’s an 8-volume set available called Handbook of Fractional Calculus with Applications. Volume 1 provides a good introduction, with applications in various fields (including Life and Social sciences) in subsequent volumes.

Thanks btm, but I think I may have left it a bit late in life for 8 volumes of new maths :)

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Date: 1/10/2023 04:13:50
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2080107
Subject: re: Fractional Calculus

quitter talk

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