The phrase “gold, frankinsense and myrrh” only occurs in one book of the Bible. Matthew, which doesn’t even say how many Magi there were. IIRC some sources sat twelve.

I was reading Marco Polo, as one does, and came across this.

This is a myth from the village of Cala Ataperistan in Persia

“In old times three kings of (Persia) went away to worship a Prophet that was born, and they carried with them three manner of offerings, Gold, and Frankincense, and Myrrh; in order to ascertain whether that Prophet were a God, or an earthly King, or a Healer. For they said, if he take the Gold, then he is an earthly King; if he take the Incense he is a God; if he take the Myrrh he is a Healer.

“When they had come to the place where the Child was born, the youngest of the Three Kings went in first, and found the Child apparently just of his own age; so he went forth again marvelling greatly. The middle one entered next, and like the first he found the Child seemingly of his own age; so he also went forth again and marvelled greatly. Lastly, the eldest went in, and as it had befallen the other two, so it befell him. And he went forth very pensive. And when the three had rejoined one another, each told what he had seen; and then they all marvelled the more. So they agreed to go in all three together, and on doing so they beheld the Child with the appearance of its actual age, to wit, some thirteen days. Then they adored, and presented their Gold and Incense and Myrrh. And the Child took all the three offerings, and then gave them a small closed box; whereupon the Kings departed to return into their own land.

“They opened the little box, and inside it they found a stone … so they cast it into a well. Then straightway a fire from Heaven descended into that well wherein the stone had been cast.”

Which is why the people of the village of Cala Ataperistan worship fire.
LOL

—-

A few comments:

• Not in wikipedia.
• There’s no suggestion that the child in Marco Polo’s account was Jesus.
• The “kings of persia” probably made a living this way, by being paid money to be fortune tellers, like modern gypsies. They got conned by a simple magic trick.
• Marco Polo’s account helps to clarify the New Testament enormously, since importing this myth into the Bible is meant to convey that Jesus was all three of King, God and Healer.

mollwollfumble said:

The phrase “gold, frankinsense and myrrh” only occurs in one book of the Bible. Matthew, which doesn’t even say how many Magi there were. IIRC some sources sat twelve.

I was reading Marco Polo, as one does, and came across this.

This is a myth from the village of Cala Ataperistan in Persia

“In old times three kings of (Persia) went away to worship a Prophet that was born, and they carried with them three manner of offerings, Gold, and Frankincense, and Myrrh; in order to ascertain whether that Prophet were a God, or an earthly King, or a Healer. For they said, if he take the Gold, then he is an earthly King; if he take the Incense he is a God; if he take the Myrrh he is a Healer.

“When they had come to the place where the Child was born, the youngest of the Three Kings went in first, and found the Child apparently just of his own age; so he went forth again marvelling greatly. The middle one entered next, and like the first he found the Child seemingly of his own age; so he also went forth again and marvelled greatly. Lastly, the eldest went in, and as it had befallen the other two, so it befell him. And he went forth very pensive. And when the three had rejoined one another, each told what he had seen; and then they all marvelled the more. So they agreed to go in all three together, and on doing so they beheld the Child with the appearance of its actual age, to wit, some thirteen days. Then they adored, and presented their Gold and Incense and Myrrh. And the Child took all the three offerings, and then gave them a small closed box; whereupon the Kings departed to return into their own land.

“They opened the little box, and inside it they found a stone … so they cast it into a well. Then straightway a fire from Heaven descended into that well wherein the stone had been cast.”

Which is why the people of the village of Cala Ataperistan worship fire.
LOL

—-

A few comments:

• Not in wikipedia.
• There’s no suggestion that the child in Marco Polo’s account was Jesus.
• The “kings of persia” probably made a living this way, by being paid money to be fortune tellers, like modern gypsies. They got conned by a simple magic trick.
• Marco Polo’s account helps to clarify the New Testament enormously, since importing this myth into the Bible is meant to convey that Jesus was all three of King, God and Healer.
  

Very interesting.

I wonder how old that story is, and how Matthew got to hear of it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

The phrase “gold, frankinsense and myrrh” only occurs in one book of the Bible. Matthew, which doesn’t even say how many Magi there were. IIRC some sources sat twelve.

I was reading Marco Polo, as one does, and came across this.

This is a myth from the village of Cala Ataperistan in Persia

“In old times three kings of (Persia) went away to worship a Prophet that was born, and they carried with them three manner of offerings, Gold, and Frankincense, and Myrrh; in order to ascertain whether that Prophet were a God, or an earthly King, or a Healer. For they said, if he take the Gold, then he is an earthly King; if he take the Incense he is a God; if he take the Myrrh he is a Healer.

“When they had come to the place where the Child was born, the youngest of the Three Kings went in first, and found the Child apparently just of his own age; so he went forth again marvelling greatly. The middle one entered next, and like the first he found the Child seemingly of his own age; so he also went forth again and marvelled greatly. Lastly, the eldest went in, and as it had befallen the other two, so it befell him. And he went forth very pensive. And when the three had rejoined one another, each told what he had seen; and then they all marvelled the more. So they agreed to go in all three together, and on doing so they beheld the Child with the appearance of its actual age, to wit, some thirteen days. Then they adored, and presented their Gold and Incense and Myrrh. And the Child took all the three offerings, and then gave them a small closed box; whereupon the Kings departed to return into their own land.

“They opened the little box, and inside it they found a stone … so they cast it into a well. Then straightway a fire from Heaven descended into that well wherein the stone had been cast.”

Which is why the people of the village of Cala Ataperistan worship fire.
LOL

—-

A few comments:

• Not in wikipedia.
• There’s no suggestion that the child in Marco Polo’s account was Jesus.
• The “kings of persia” probably made a living this way, by being paid money to be fortune tellers, like modern gypsies. They got conned by a simple magic trick.
• Marco Polo’s account helps to clarify the New Testament enormously, since importing this myth into the Bible is meant to convey that Jesus was all three of King, God and Healer.
  

Very interesting.

I wonder how old that story is, and how Matthew got to hear of it.

Obviously a misquote.
One of the Magi said “I’ll be frank, I don’t like incense” & another said “Don’t call me Frank”

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

The phrase “gold, frankinsense and myrrh” only occurs in one book of the Bible. Matthew, which doesn’t even say how many Magi there were. IIRC some sources sat twelve.

I was reading Marco Polo, as one does, and came across this.

This is a myth from the village of Cala Ataperistan in Persia

“In old times three kings of (Persia) went away to worship a Prophet that was born, and they carried with them three manner of offerings, Gold, and Frankincense, and Myrrh; in order to ascertain whether that Prophet were a God, or an earthly King, or a Healer. For they said, if he take the Gold, then he is an earthly King; if he take the Incense he is a God; if he take the Myrrh he is a Healer.

“When they had come to the place where the Child was born, the youngest of the Three Kings went in first, and found the Child apparently just of his own age; so he went forth again marvelling greatly. The middle one entered next, and like the first he found the Child seemingly of his own age; so he also went forth again and marvelled greatly. Lastly, the eldest went in, and as it had befallen the other two, so it befell him. And he went forth very pensive. And when the three had rejoined one another, each told what he had seen; and then they all marvelled the more. So they agreed to go in all three together, and on doing so they beheld the Child with the appearance of its actual age, to wit, some thirteen days. Then they adored, and presented their Gold and Incense and Myrrh. And the Child took all the three offerings, and then gave them a small closed box; whereupon the Kings departed to return into their own land.

“They opened the little box, and inside it they found a stone … so they cast it into a well. Then straightway a fire from Heaven descended into that well wherein the stone had been cast.”

Which is why the people of the village of Cala Ataperistan worship fire.
LOL

—-

A few comments:

• Not in wikipedia.
• There’s no suggestion that the child in Marco Polo’s account was Jesus.
• The “kings of persia” probably made a living this way, by being paid money to be fortune tellers, like modern gypsies. They got conned by a simple magic trick.
• Marco Polo’s account helps to clarify the New Testament enormously, since importing this myth into the Bible is meant to convey that Jesus was all three of King, God and Healer.
  

Very interesting.

I wonder how old that story is, and how Matthew got to hear of it.

the same way the Story of Noah came into being

it was an already an old story even before Moses wrote it down

interesting (good) stories get told, retold and reshaped over time.

“In the Beginning” = “Once Upon A Time” = “NO SHIT… There I Was!”

Ogmog said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Very interesting.

I wonder how old that story is, and how Matthew got to hear of it.

the same way the Story of Noah came into being

it was an already an old story even before Moses wrote it down

interesting (good) stories get told, retold and reshaped over time.

“In the Beginning” = “Once Upon A Time” = “NO SHIT… There I Was!”

I can’t find the old thread “Herodotus dragon” so this one will have to do. It ties in with frankincense.

I was reading the book of Isiah (because it’s the book most frequently seen in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and is the largest book in the Bible after Psalms) and came across a “winged serpent”.

Just as in Herodotus.
According the Isiah, this winged serpent lived in the Negev desert. Herodotus places it where frankincense trees grow in Southern Oman and on the east coast of the Red Sea. Close enough.
And just as in Herodotus it lived in the company of an adder and viper. Herodotus says “horned viper”.

“a consensus through most of the 20th century, that the book comprises three separate collections of oracles. Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah”. This is the first part of Isiah, “proto-Isiah”.

So this pushes the origin of the European / Middle eastern dragon, as opposed to the Chinese dragon, back from Herodotus at 425 BC to proto-Isiah at mid to late 8th-century BCE.

Herodotus gave enough information on the “winged serpent” to pin it down to the Arabian Cobra (Naja arabica). Herodotus on viewing a pile of skeletons mistakes the spines of the cobra neck bones for the long bones of a bat’s wing.

The following is the range of the horned viper. The range overlaps on the eastern side of the Red Sea.

mollwollfumble said:

Ogmog said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Very interesting.

I wonder how old that story is, and how Matthew got to hear of it.

the same way the Story of Noah came into being

it was an already an old story even before Moses wrote it down

interesting (good) stories get told, retold and reshaped over time.

“In the Beginning” = “Once Upon A Time” = “NO SHIT… There I Was!”

I can’t find the old thread “Herodotus dragon” so this one will have to do. It ties in with frankincense.

I was reading the book of Isiah (because it’s the book most frequently seen in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and is the largest book in the Bible after Psalms) and came across a “winged serpent”.

Just as in Herodotus.
According the Isiah, this winged serpent lived in the Negev desert. Herodotus places it where frankincense trees grow in Southern Oman and on the east coast of the Red Sea. Close enough.
And just as in Herodotus it lived in the company of an adder and viper. Herodotus says “horned viper”.

“a consensus through most of the 20th century, that the book comprises three separate collections of oracles. Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah”. This is the first part of Isiah, “proto-Isiah”.

So this pushes the origin of the European / Middle eastern dragon, as opposed to the Chinese dragon, back from Herodotus at 425 BC to proto-Isiah at mid to late 8th-century BCE.

Herodotus gave enough information on the “winged serpent” to pin it down to the Arabian Cobra (Naja arabica). Herodotus on viewing a pile of skeletons mistakes the spines of the cobra neck bones for the long bones of a bat’s wing.

The following is the range of the horned viper. The range overlaps on the eastern side of the Red Sea.

A brightly colored snake, obviously not worried about being spotted by predators when out and about.

PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

Ogmog said:

the same way the Story of Noah came into being

it was an already an old story even before Moses wrote it down

interesting (good) stories get told, retold and reshaped over time.

“In the Beginning” = “Once Upon A Time” = “NO SHIT… There I Was!”

I can’t find the old thread “Herodotus dragon” so this one will have to do. It ties in with frankincense.

I was reading the book of Isiah (because it’s the book most frequently seen in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and is the largest book in the Bible after Psalms) and came across a “winged serpent”.

Just as in Herodotus.
According the Isiah, this winged serpent lived in the Negev desert. Herodotus places it where frankincense trees grow in Southern Oman and on the east coast of the Red Sea. Close enough.
And just as in Herodotus it lived in the company of an adder and viper. Herodotus says “horned viper”.

“a consensus through most of the 20th century, that the book comprises three separate collections of oracles. Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah”. This is the first part of Isiah, “proto-Isiah”.

So this pushes the origin of the European / Middle eastern dragon, as opposed to the Chinese dragon, back from Herodotus at 425 BC to proto-Isiah at mid to late 8th-century BCE.

Herodotus gave enough information on the “winged serpent” to pin it down to the Arabian Cobra (Naja arabica). Herodotus on viewing a pile of skeletons mistakes the spines of the cobra neck bones for the long bones of a bat’s wing.

The following is the range of the horned viper. The range overlaps on the eastern side of the Red Sea.

A brightly colored snake, obviously not worried about being spotted by predators when out and about.

I should have mentioned a difference between Isaiah and Herodotus accounts. In Isaiah, it is referred to as a “winged serpent”, in Herodotus as a “flying serpent”. Herodotus claims that it would have been able to fly across the width of the Red Sea, being held back only by animals in Egypt that would eat it. There is no such claim in Isaiah.

I’ve just spotted a dragon even earlier in literature. The Rig Vedas were written in Sanscrit circa 1500 to 1000 BCE.
In an English translation that was written in the year 1896: https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/ebooks1/ralph-t-h-griffith/rig-veda/rig-veda.pdf

HYMN XXXII. Indra.

• I WILL declare the manly deeds of Indra, the first that he achieved, the Thunder-wielder.
  He slew the Dragon, then disclosed the waters, and cleft the channels of the mountain torrents.
• He slew the Dragon lying on the mountain: his heavenly bolt of thunder Tvaṣṭar fashioned.
  Like lowing kine in rapid flow descending the waters glided downward to the ocean.
• Impetuous as a bull, he chose the Soma and in three sacred beakers drank the juices.
  Maghavan grasped the thunder for his weapon, and smote to death this firstborn of the dragons.
• When, Indra, thou hadst slain the dragon’s firstborn,

Serpents also appear in the Rig Veda. Even earlier in the collection, Hymn 3. Serpents are shape-changers?

• The Viśvedevas, changing shape like serpents, fearless, void of guile, Bearers, accept the sacred draught

Origin of the Dragon in the Rig Vedas?