Naturally I can’t find nor remember when & where the discussion of how electricity flows was post, hence this new thread.
Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such down wires & the like. The sparks we see in the atmosphere and lightning as well come from the electrons being ripped from the various gasses in the air.

So another question – How do batteries get charged?

but they do flow

just it isn’t the lightspeed transmission mechanism

Spiny Norman said:

How do batteries get charged?

so surely this is a potentiated chemical reaction or is that a misunderstanding as well

Spiny Norman said:

find the discussion

oh all right then https://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/topics/15459/ probably this one

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

What are these electrons of which you type?

Ian said:

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

What are these electrons of which you type?

Fair question

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

Sure, we all talked about that in that other thread but that seems largely irrelevant to the big picture of power flow.

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

Sure, we all talked about that in that other thread but that seems largely irrelevant to the big picture of power flow.

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

Sure, we all talked about that in that other thread but that seems largely irrelevant to the big picture of power flow.

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

Sure, we all talked about that in that other thread but that seems largely irrelevant to the big picture of power flow.

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

last time we wanted a quick glass of tapwater we had to wait for it to flow all the way from the water tower slash reservoir

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

Sure, we all talked about that in that other thread but that seems largely irrelevant to the big picture of power flow.

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

Briefly: because of the abundance of valence electrons in the conductors.

Like a phone battery might hold 3000 mAh, which at its operating voltage of 3.8 V probably means about 40 kJ. The charger might operate at 12 V, so you would need 3300 coulombs worth of electrons to fully charge it, about 2 × 10^22 electrons.

Copper is usually said to only have one free electron per atom which works out to 8.5 × 10^22 free electrons per cubic centimetre.

In other words a third of a cubic centimetre of copper has enough free electrons to charge your battery. If you have a piece of copper wire 2 mm wide, and the electrons are moving at an ant’s pace of 1 mm per second, if ALL of the available electrons were moving at that pace, your battery would be charged in 10 seconds.

So the real question is, why is charging so slow? And the answer is that only a tiny fraction of the free electrons can be made to move under such voltages.

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

Briefly: because of the abundance of valence electrons in the conductors.

Like a phone battery might hold 3000 mAh, which at its operating voltage of 3.8 V probably means about 40 kJ. The charger might operate at 12 V, so you would need 3300 coulombs worth of electrons to fully charge it, about 2 × 10^22 electrons.

Copper is usually said to only have one free electron per atom which works out to 8.5 × 10^22 free electrons per cubic centimetre.

In other words a third of a cubic centimetre of copper has enough free electrons to charge your battery. If you have a piece of copper wire 2 mm wide, and the electrons are moving at an ant’s pace of 1 mm per second, if ALL of the available electrons were moving at that pace, your battery would be charged in 10 seconds.

So the real question is, why is charging so slow? And the answer is that only a tiny fraction of the free electrons can be made to move under such voltages.

Great answer, thanks

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

Briefly: because of the abundance of valence electrons in the conductors.

Like a phone battery might hold 3000 mAh, which at its operating voltage of 3.8 V probably means about 40 kJ. The charger might operate at 12 V, so you would need 3300 coulombs worth of electrons to fully charge it, about 2 × 10^22 electrons.

Copper is usually said to only have one free electron per atom which works out to 8.5 × 10^22 free electrons per cubic centimetre.

In other words a third of a cubic centimetre of copper has enough free electrons to charge your battery. If you have a piece of copper wire 2 mm wide, and the electrons are moving at an ant’s pace of 1 mm per second, if ALL of the available electrons were moving at that pace, your battery would be charged in 10 seconds.

So the real question is, why is charging so slow? And the answer is that only a tiny fraction of the free electrons can be made to move under such voltages.

100 seconds, sorry … braino

Also cross out “valence” and write “free”.

Soupy twist

Still 0.1 excellents, thanks

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

https://www.science.org/content/article/fastest-ant-world-could-hit-200-meters-second-if-it-were-big-human

Speedy said:

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

https://www.science.org/content/article/fastest-ant-world-could-hit-200-meters-second-if-it-were-big-human

I am not trying to say science.org is despo but a human sized ant would not even live. They don’t have a respiratory or circulatory system suitable for a human sized animal.

dv said:

Speedy said:

dv said:

Electrons do migrate in a conductor under emf. Slowly … like ant speed.

https://www.science.org/content/article/fastest-ant-world-could-hit-200-meters-second-if-it-were-big-human

I am not trying to say science.org is despo but a human sized ant would not even live. They don’t have a respiratory or circulatory system suitable for a human sized animal.

And even if they could breathe, if you scaled everything up by the same ratio its legs would not even be able to lift its body off the ground, let alone run at high speed.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Speedy said:

https://www.science.org/content/article/fastest-ant-world-could-hit-200-meters-second-if-it-were-big-human

I am not trying to say science.org is despo but a human sized ant would not even live. They don’t have a respiratory or circulatory system suitable for a human sized animal.

And even if they could breathe, if you scaled everything up by the same ratio its legs would not even be able to lift its body off the ground, let alone run at high speed.

“Ants: the pissweak sluggards of the animal kingdom”

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Speedy said:

https://www.science.org/content/article/fastest-ant-world-could-hit-200-meters-second-if-it-were-big-human

I am not trying to say science.org is despo but a human sized ant would not even live. They don’t have a respiratory or circulatory system suitable for a human sized animal.

And even if they could breathe, if you scaled everything up by the same ratio its legs would not even be able to lift its body off the ground, let alone run at high speed.

So you’re both saying ants are magical?

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

I am not trying to say science.org is despo but a human sized ant would not even live. They don’t have a respiratory or circulatory system suitable for a human sized animal.

And even if they could breathe, if you scaled everything up by the same ratio its legs would not even be able to lift its body off the ground, let alone run at high speed.

“Ants: the pissweak sluggards of the animal kingdom”

200 metres per sec is fast, but it’s ‘just’ 720 kmh.

A Boeing 747 can do 988 kmh.

But then, so quite possibly could a big ant, if you lashed 4 honking big jet engines to its carcass.

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

But it is crucial for answering your question about how batteries get charged…

So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

Briefly: because of the abundance of valence electrons in the conductors.

Like a phone battery might hold 3000 mAh, which at its operating voltage of 3.8 V probably means about 40 kJ. The charger might operate at 12 V, so you would need 3300 coulombs worth of electrons to fully charge it, about 2 × 10^22 electrons.

Copper is usually said to only have one free electron per atom which works out to 8.5 × 10^22 free electrons per cubic centimetre.

In other words a third of a cubic centimetre of copper has enough free electrons to charge your battery. If you have a piece of copper wire 2 mm wide, and the electrons are moving at an ant’s pace of 1 mm per second, if ALL of the available electrons were moving at that pace, your battery would be charged in 10 seconds.

So the real question is, why is charging so slow? And the answer is that only a tiny fraction of the free electrons can be made to move under such voltages.

That is a really good answer, with the caveat that I don’t go round charging 3.8 volt batteries with 12 volts. Sure, you can, but they don’t last long.

captain_spalding said:

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

And even if they could breathe, if you scaled everything up by the same ratio its legs would not even be able to lift its body off the ground, let alone run at high speed.

“Ants: the pissweak sluggards of the animal kingdom”

200 metres per sec is fast, but it’s ‘just’ 720 kmh.

A Boeing 747 can do 988 kmh.

But then, so quite possibly could a big ant, if you lashed 4 honking big jet engines to its carcass.

we think you’re all being unfair and in truth giant ants of the nearly infinitely more massive variety, videre licet אants, are plenty strong and get up to 10 m/s easily

>So if they’re meandering so slowly, how can (some lithium or graphene) batteries charge quickly?

efficient chemical recombination, not too much heat generated by internal resistance (or other damage), or equivalent resistance whatever you want call it, given it’s a voltage source not a straight resistance

which, more to your point, probably means the chemistry has an electrical resistance

subject meandering electrons, i’m not sure the hopping from one orbit of one atom to another is so slow, final journey of the migration, which is conjecture on my part

dunno really, all seems an alien world

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-09/early-coal-exit-national-electricity-market-renewables/100687644

Coal-fired power stations contribute about 23 gigawatts of energy to the NEM, with 5GW to be withdrawn by 2030.

AAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

sibeen said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-09/early-coal-exit-national-electricity-market-renewables/100687644

Coal-fired power stations contribute about 23 gigawatts of energy to the NEM, with 5GW to be withdrawn by 2030.

AAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you’re not planning to retire any time soon.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-09/early-coal-exit-national-electricity-market-renewables/100687644

Coal-fired power stations contribute about 23 gigawatts of energy to the NEM, with 5GW to be withdrawn by 2030.

AAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you’re not planning to retire any time soon.

My partner, who is a year older than I am, actually got asked this by one of our bigger clients last week; “what the fuck are we going to do when you two retire”?

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

No.

sibeen said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

No.

No way to make atoms bigger?

Tau.Neutrino said:

sibeen said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

No.

No way to make atoms bigger?

I was going to try to get some funding.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

sibeen said:

No.

No way to make atoms bigger?

I was going to try to get some funding.

bitcoin

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

Noble Gases.

sibeen said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

No.

Show working.

runs away

Michael V said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

Noble Gases.

Actually, on thinking about it more: ions.

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Could you make stronger flow of electricity, by adding more electrons to each atom, so that each atom has its maximum amount of electrons in each orbit around the nucleus?

Noble Gases.

Actually, on thinking about it more: ions.

You need free electrons and they come best with gold, silver & copper.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Noble Gases.

Actually, on thinking about it more: ions.

You need free electrons and they come best with gold, silver & copper.

I was answering the question about maximising the electrons in orbitals. This occurs in Noble gasses and ions.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Noble Gases.

Actually, on thinking about it more: ions.

You need free electrons and they come best with gold, silver & copper.

i’d mention my mercury speaker leads, but you might think I was bragging

transition said:

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

Actually, on thinking about it more: ions.

You need free electrons and they come best with gold, silver & copper.

i’d mention my mercury speaker leads, but you might think I was bragging

Would be especially good when listening to heavy metal.

sibeen said:

transition said:

sibeen said:

You need free electrons and they come best with gold, silver & copper.

i’d mention my mercury speaker leads, but you might think I was bragging

Would be especially good when listening to heavy metal.

chuckle

get yaself sum bwane damij too

transition said:

sibeen said:

transition said:

i’d mention my mercury speaker leads, but you might think I was bragging

Would be especially good when listening to heavy metal.

chuckle

get yaself sum bwane damij too

I had some really good sodium leads. Lasted for years and then one of the sprogs put on a song by a band called Wet Wet Wet.

Spiny Norman said:

Naturally I can’t find nor remember when & where the discussion of how electricity flows was post, hence this new thread.
Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such down wires & the like. The sparks we see in the atmosphere and lightning as well come from the electrons being ripped from the various gasses in the air.

So another question – How do batteries get charged?

> Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such

They do, but at a walking pace. That’s why batteries take so long to charge.

How about supercapacitors charging very rapidly?
I imagine it’s the same answer as DV gave?

sibeen said:

transition said:

sibeen said:

Would be especially good when listening to heavy metal.

chuckle

get yaself sum bwane damij too

I had some really good sodium leads. Lasted for years and then one of the sprogs put on a song by a band called Wet Wet Wet.

powdered aluminium leads are Da Bomb!

mollwollfumble said:

Spiny Norman said:

Naturally I can’t find nor remember when & where the discussion of how electricity flows was post, hence this new thread.
Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such down wires & the like. The sparks we see in the atmosphere and lightning as well come from the electrons being ripped from the various gasses in the air.

So another question – How do batteries get charged?

> Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such

They do, but at a walking pace. That’s why batteries take so long to charge.

moll is dv?

That’s a bit of a surprise.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Spiny Norman said:

Naturally I can’t find nor remember when & where the discussion of how electricity flows was post, hence this new thread.
Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such down wires & the like. The sparks we see in the atmosphere and lightning as well come from the electrons being ripped from the various gasses in the air.

So another question – How do batteries get charged?

> Okay we established that the electrons don’t actually flow as such

They do, but at a walking pace. That’s why batteries take so long to charge.

moll is dv?

That’s a bit of a surprise.

Everything is possible in bizarro world.

I take we’ve all seen the Science Asylum, Veritasium videos on this subject. Very informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQsoG45Y_00

EEVblog 1439 – Analysing Veritasium’s Electricity Misconceptions Video