PF…might be easier if we discuss the yellow daisies in one place and they won’t get too lost in Chat. I’ve taken notes of your comments so far.
Thank you for your help.
buffy said:
PF…might be easier if we discuss the yellow daisies in one place and they won’t get too lost in Chat. I’ve taken notes of your comments so far.Thank you for your help.
the teeth of the lion.
buffy said in chat:
Just looked at the weed books, and they say Taraxacum has hollow stems.
I’ve collected the VicFlora descriptions for Leontodon, Hypchaeris and the native Taraxacum (seems to be too many imported ones, I’ll narrow my sights a bit, not expecting to find it) and tomorrow I might collect the descriptions for Crepis and Picris. I don’t know about God having a thing for beetles, he certainly had a thing for yellow daisy flowers.
Another thing that occurred to me is the roots are rarely included much. Are they relevent apart from a good taproot for these? I recently was looking at Lagenophora and I suspect they matter there. On our private covenanted land I have the luxury of being able to dig and replant so I can look at roots.
————————————————————————————————————————
Weed books are generally not trying to separate species, only trying to id what you have in your hand and will give a lot of information and if all points given are as your specimen, then you have the correct id. Much info probably provided to also stimulate confidence.
The root structure is usually given at the beginning of the description. With herbs, perennials usually have a taproot, although the leaves might die off in summer, but will regrow in spring or when cooler. Annuals will have a spreading root-system. With some daisies like Sonchus, having a taproot or not, is a diagnostic feature.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said in chat:Just looked at the weed books, and they say Taraxacum has hollow stems.
I’ve collected the VicFlora descriptions for Leontodon, Hypchaeris and the native Taraxacum (seems to be too many imported ones, I’ll narrow my sights a bit, not expecting to find it) and tomorrow I might collect the descriptions for Crepis and Picris. I don’t know about God having a thing for beetles, he certainly had a thing for yellow daisy flowers.
Another thing that occurred to me is the roots are rarely included much. Are they relevent apart from a good taproot for these? I recently was looking at Lagenophora and I suspect they matter there. On our private covenanted land I have the luxury of being able to dig and replant so I can look at roots.
————————————————————————————————————————Weed books are generally not trying to separate species, only trying to id what you have in your hand and will give a lot of information and if all points given are as your specimen, then you have the correct id. Much info probably provided to also stimulate confidence.
The root structure is usually given at the beginning of the description. With herbs, perennials usually have a taproot, although the leaves might die off in summer, but will regrow in spring or when cooler. Annuals will have a spreading root-system. With some daisies like Sonchus, having a taproot or not, is a diagnostic feature.
Should add if perennial herbs do not have a taproot, they will usually have a tuber or rhizome, but we are getting away from flat-weeds.
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said in chat:Just looked at the weed books, and they say Taraxacum has hollow stems.
I’ve collected the VicFlora descriptions for Leontodon, Hypchaeris and the native Taraxacum (seems to be too many imported ones, I’ll narrow my sights a bit, not expecting to find it) and tomorrow I might collect the descriptions for Crepis and Picris. I don’t know about God having a thing for beetles, he certainly had a thing for yellow daisy flowers.
Another thing that occurred to me is the roots are rarely included much. Are they relevent apart from a good taproot for these? I recently was looking at Lagenophora and I suspect they matter there. On our private covenanted land I have the luxury of being able to dig and replant so I can look at roots.
————————————————————————————————————————Weed books are generally not trying to separate species, only trying to id what you have in your hand and will give a lot of information and if all points given are as your specimen, then you have the correct id. Much info probably provided to also stimulate confidence.
The root structure is usually given at the beginning of the description. With herbs, perennials usually have a taproot, although the leaves might die off in summer, but will regrow in spring or when cooler. Annuals will have a spreading root-system. With some daisies like Sonchus, having a taproot or not, is a diagnostic feature.
Should add if perennial herbs do not have a taproot, they will usually have a tuber or rhizome, but we are getting away from flat-weeds.
Thank you again. To give you an idea of how much of a beginner I am with this…I’ve now worked out what they mean by beaked and not beaked. But never mind. Like I said, I’ll keep at it. I think I’m seeing differences between all basal leaves and some having cauline leaves. Flowering times don’t help. The latex in the Taraxacum might be useful – do any of the others have that? I haven’t seen it mentioned.
Of course this is all well and good until I walk into the bush and can’t decide how many photos I really want to take.
The weed books I’ve got are Auld and Medd “Weeds. An illustrated botanical guide to the weeds of Australia” which I’m used to using because I’ve had it for years. And more recently I bought a copy of Richardson, Richardson and Shepherd “Weeds of the South East. An identification guide for Australia”. Which is very detailed, although in simpler language than the VicFlora descriptions.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said in chat:Just looked at the weed books, and they say Taraxacum has hollow stems.
I’ve collected the VicFlora descriptions for Leontodon, Hypchaeris and the native Taraxacum (seems to be too many imported ones, I’ll narrow my sights a bit, not expecting to find it) and tomorrow I might collect the descriptions for Crepis and Picris. I don’t know about God having a thing for beetles, he certainly had a thing for yellow daisy flowers.
Another thing that occurred to me is the roots are rarely included much. Are they relevent apart from a good taproot for these? I recently was looking at Lagenophora and I suspect they matter there. On our private covenanted land I have the luxury of being able to dig and replant so I can look at roots.
————————————————————————————————————————Weed books are generally not trying to separate species, only trying to id what you have in your hand and will give a lot of information and if all points given are as your specimen, then you have the correct id. Much info probably provided to also stimulate confidence.
The root structure is usually given at the beginning of the description. With herbs, perennials usually have a taproot, although the leaves might die off in summer, but will regrow in spring or when cooler. Annuals will have a spreading root-system. With some daisies like Sonchus, having a taproot or not, is a diagnostic feature.
Should add if perennial herbs do not have a taproot, they will usually have a tuber or rhizome, but we are getting away from flat-weeds.
Thank you again. To give you an idea of how much of a beginner I am with this…I’ve now worked out what they mean by beaked and not beaked. But never mind. Like I said, I’ll keep at it. I think I’m seeing differences between all basal leaves and some having cauline leaves. Flowering times don’t help. The latex in the Taraxacum might be useful – do any of the others have that? I haven’t seen it mentioned.
Of course this is all well and good until I walk into the bush and can’t decide how many photos I really want to take.
The weed books I’ve got are Auld and Medd “Weeds. An illustrated botanical guide to the weeds of Australia” which I’m used to using because I’ve had it for years. And more recently I bought a copy of Richardson, Richardson and Shepherd “Weeds of the South East. An identification guide for Australia”. Which is very detailed, although in simpler language than the VicFlora descriptions.
Plants in Euphorbiaceae generally have the most latex, but there are others too, especially in Asteraceae, although much reduced in comparison to the euphorbias.
The basic photos you need for plant id, are the full plant in situ, the petals and whole flower, seed if available, side view of flower showing the calyces, flower attachment to the stem, leaves-top and bottom, their attachment to the stem, soil type. Any unusual feature including hair type and arrangement, stem cross section, etc. Also take a specimen and keep in a closed polybag until you can process it further.
To positively identify plants you need a considerable amount of information that can only be used with a botanical description, not something devised for the home gardener. Many species differ only in small ways that are not obvious by casual observation.
buffy said:
PF…might be easier if we discuss the yellow daisies in one place and they won’t get too lost in Chat. I’ve taken notes of your comments so far.Thank you for your help.
Missed the posts and pictures in chat
Homemade All Natural Dandelion Weed Killer
Please be aware that although there are many uses for Dandelion Plants,
both culinary and medicinal, they are probably the most invasive weed there is.
Each of those dainty parachute bourne seeds spread by the slightest breeze or
cute little girl in her Sunday dress puffing them to watch them scatter in the wind
will produce a deep-rooted, very difficult to eradicate, perennial for which all your
neighbours will HATE You For until you get rid of them… or leave town pursued
by a lynch mob brandishing pitchforks.
…just sayin’… 0:-) o-8=
White outrage about Will Smith’s slap is rooted in anti-Blackness.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/white-outrage-about-will-smiths-slap-is-rooted-in-anti-blackness-its-inequality-in-plain-sight
The Gran at its finest. At least I got a chuckle at the headline.
sibeen said:
White outrage about Will Smith’s slap is rooted in anti-Blackness.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/white-outrage-about-will-smiths-slap-is-rooted-in-anti-blackness-its-inequality-in-plain-sight
The Gran at its finest. At least I got a chuckle at the headline.
OOOPS
sibeen said:
White outrage about Will Smith’s slap is rooted in anti-Blackness.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/white-outrage-about-will-smiths-slap-is-rooted-in-anti-blackness-its-inequality-in-plain-sight
The Gran at its finest. At least I got a chuckle at the headline.
Did you missss-post about “The Slap Seen ‘Round the World”
or does it have some relevance to the topic @ hand?
sibeen said:
sibeen said:
White outrage about Will Smith’s slap is rooted in anti-Blackness.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/white-outrage-about-will-smiths-slap-is-rooted-in-anti-blackness-its-inequality-in-plain-sight
The Gran at its finest. At least I got a chuckle at the headline.
OOOPS
No worries
Open A New Thread about it and let’s get some opinions on the topic.
Ogmog said:
buffy said:
PF…might be easier if we discuss the yellow daisies in one place and they won’t get too lost in Chat. I’ve taken notes of your comments so far.Thank you for your help.
Missed the posts and pictures in chat
Homemade All Natural Dandelion Weed Killer
We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
buffy said:
Ogmog said:
buffy said:
PF…might be easier if we discuss the yellow daisies in one place and they won’t get too lost in Chat. I’ve taken notes of your comments so far.Thank you for your help.
Missed the posts and pictures in chat
Homemade All Natural Dandelion Weed Killer
We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
Sorry, as stated, I hadn’t seen the origin of the topic
Ogmog said:
buffy said:
Ogmog said:Missed the posts and pictures in chat
Homemade All Natural Dandelion Weed Killer
We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
Sorry, as stated, I hadn’t seen the origin of the topic
Dandelions Everything you need to know about the humble flower that carpets the world in yellow
That’s a great snap, ta.
Bubblecar said:
Ogmog said:
buffy said:We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
Sorry, as stated, I hadn’t seen the origin of the topic
Dandelions Everything you need to know about the humble flower that carpets the world in yellow
That’s a great snap, ta.
It is, what a tiny little critter as well
There are two native Dandelions, Taraxacum aristum the Mountain Dandelion and Taraxacum cygnorum the Coastal Dandelion. Both are rare with the latter being the most rare.
T. aristum is scattered in the sub-alpine zone in NE Victoria, NSW and the ACT. In Tasmania it is reasonably common on the Plateau in grassy meadows overlying rocks, although graziers are sowing introduced grasses in these areas that will affect its survival.
T. cygnorum is largely restricted to coastal limestone areas and although once widespread, occuring in WA, SA, Vic, Tasmanian Bass Strait Islands and NSW, it is now very rare and regarded as extinct in most areas.
To id the native Taraxacum spp., the easiest way is to examine the bracts surrounding the inflorescence; with introduced species they are strongly recurved, whereas the floral bracts of native species are upright and enclose the floral parts.
buffy said:
We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
Excuse my ignorance, is Hawksbeard amongst those?
I have trouble distinguishing hawksbeard from dandelion.
PermeateFree said:
There are two native Dandelions, Taraxacum aristum the Mountain Dandelion and Taraxacum cygnorum the Coastal Dandelion. Both are rare with the latter being the most rare.T. aristum is scattered in the sub-alpine zone in NE Victoria, NSW and the ACT. In Tasmania it is reasonably common on the Plateau in grassy meadows overlying rocks, although graziers are sowing introduced grasses in these areas that will affect its survival.
T. cygnorum is largely restricted to coastal limestone areas and although once widespread, occuring in WA, SA, Vic, Tasmanian Bass Strait Islands and NSW, it is now very rare and regarded as extinct in most areas.
To id the native Taraxacum spp., the easiest way is to examine the bracts surrounding the inflorescence; with introduced species they are strongly recurved, whereas the floral bracts of native species are upright and enclose the floral parts.
Ta.
mollwollfumble said:
buffy said:
We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
Excuse my ignorance, is Hawksbeard amongst those?
I have trouble distinguishing hawksbeard from dandelion.
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
buffy said:
We are not discussing the use of dandelions in folk medicine. We are discussing botanically differentiating the different genuses of yellow dandelion type flowers, including Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Taraxacum, Crepis and Picris. There is in fact a native dandelion, Taraxacum cygnorum in Victoria.
Excuse my ignorance, is Hawksbeard amongst those?
I have trouble distinguishing hawksbeard from dandelion.
Sorry, hit submit too soon.
Yes, Hawkesbeard is one of the ones I’m working on recognizing.
PF. Thanks for that Taraxacum info. I’ll put it into my notes. I didn’t get around to doing the Crepis and Picris reading today. I spent too much time pulling out weeds for my neighbour. But being retired is good…I can do it tomorrow!
buffy said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:Excuse my ignorance, is Hawksbeard amongst those?
I have trouble distinguishing hawksbeard from dandelion.
Sorry, hit submit too soon.
Yes, Hawkesbeard is one of the ones I’m working on recognizing.
PF. Thanks for that Taraxacum info. I’ll put it into my notes. I didn’t get around to doing the Crepis and Picris reading today. I spent too much time pulling out weeds for my neighbour. But being retired is good…I can do it tomorrow!
Let’s forget about tomorrow..
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
buffy said:Sorry, hit submit too soon.
Yes, Hawkesbeard is one of the ones I’m working on recognizing.
PF. Thanks for that Taraxacum info. I’ll put it into my notes. I didn’t get around to doing the Crepis and Picris reading today. I spent too much time pulling out weeds for my neighbour. But being retired is good…I can do it tomorrow!
Let’s forget about tomorrow..
Should I assume that is a song lyric?
buffy said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:Excuse my ignorance, is Hawksbeard amongst those?
I have trouble distinguishing hawksbeard from dandelion.
Sorry, hit submit too soon.
Yes, Hawkesbeard is one of the ones I’m working on recognizing.
PF. Thanks for that Taraxacum info. I’ll put it into my notes. I didn’t get around to doing the Crepis and Picris reading today. I spent too much time pulling out weeds for my neighbour. But being retired is good…I can do it tomorrow!
By the way Taraxacum cygnorum is recorded near you in the Lower Glenelg National Park.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
buffy said:Sorry, hit submit too soon.
Yes, Hawkesbeard is one of the ones I’m working on recognizing.
PF. Thanks for that Taraxacum info. I’ll put it into my notes. I didn’t get around to doing the Crepis and Picris reading today. I spent too much time pulling out weeds for my neighbour. But being retired is good…I can do it tomorrow!
By the way Taraxacum cygnorum is recorded near you in the Lower Glenelg National Park.
Yes, that is actually quite close (relatively) to our block South of Digby. However, our soil is grey sand for the most part, dinosaur times sand-dunes. I’ll keep my eyes open. I am fine IDing the Microseris, with the drooping buds and their particular leaves. I think most of the rest of the yellow “dandelions” there are Hypochaeris. But again, now I know to look more closely my walks will be even slower. Not much about at the moment though. As I said, we are still waiting on rain.
:)
buffy said:
roughbarked said:
buffy said:Sorry, hit submit too soon.
Yes, Hawkesbeard is one of the ones I’m working on recognizing.
PF. Thanks for that Taraxacum info. I’ll put it into my notes. I didn’t get around to doing the Crepis and Picris reading today. I spent too much time pulling out weeds for my neighbour. But being retired is good…I can do it tomorrow!
Let’s forget about tomorrow..
Should I assume that is a song lyric?
Yeah probably. :)
PF, if you are about.
I’ve put together my notes. I’ll have some questions tomorrow for you. But – flowering times. I think the quoted flowering times are perhaps rather unconvincing. I’m pretty certain the masses of yellow here at the moment are Hypochaeris yet they are supposed to only flower Aug to Dec. Being just short of April now, that only leaves me with Leontodon saxatilis, but these ones here don’t have nodding buds. Or Crepis capillaris but I haven’t seen any cauline leaves. Or the two Picris possibilities which I’d rather doubt in a lawn area, and anyway what is here is so close to glabrous as to be that (I think) in the stem department. So…ignore stated flowering times?
I’ll wander down to the park again tomorrow (or out onto the nature strip) and have a better look at all the features now I’ve spent more time reading the descriptions. When we go to the bush block I’ll take careful photos and notes too.
buffy said:
PF, if you are about.I’ve put together my notes. I’ll have some questions tomorrow for you. But – flowering times. I think the quoted flowering times are perhaps rather unconvincing. I’m pretty certain the masses of yellow here at the moment are Hypochaeris yet they are supposed to only flower Aug to Dec. Being just short of April now, that only leaves me with Leontodon saxatilis, but these ones here don’t have nodding buds. Or Crepis capillaris but I haven’t seen any cauline leaves. Or the two Picris possibilities which I’d rather doubt in a lawn area, and anyway what is here is so close to glabrous as to be that (I think) in the stem department. So…ignore stated flowering times?
I’ll wander down to the park again tomorrow (or out onto the nature strip) and have a better look at all the features now I’ve spent more time reading the descriptions. When we go to the bush block I’ll take careful photos and notes too.
With herbs that include flat weeds they tend to flower in moist warm conditions, so usually when rainfall is due and moisture will last for several weeks, which can vary a little depending on location (coastal or mountainous areas). However, where rainfall extends for a longer period or unexpectedly heavy at a later period, some plants will flower again outside of their usual time.
Nodding buds on Leontodon saxatilis may be due to various reasons and I would doubt if that feature is an important characteristic, with other features being more important and reliable.
When dealing with flat weeds, they commonly have a rosette of leaves at or near ground level, a vertical flowering stem (a scape growing from the root) can be produced centrally upon which the flowers develop. The cauline leaves depict a vertical stem with leaves growing from it, there are no scapes involved. Some plants have a rosette of leaves, plus a stem with cauline leaves, but again no scapes are formed.
Cauline leaves can be just above the rosetted leaves and blend with them, or they can shrivel away in dry conditions, but there should not be a scape. Bit hard to say with your Crepis without looking at a specimen.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PF, if you are about.I’ve put together my notes. I’ll have some questions tomorrow for you. But – flowering times. I think the quoted flowering times are perhaps rather unconvincing. I’m pretty certain the masses of yellow here at the moment are Hypochaeris yet they are supposed to only flower Aug to Dec. Being just short of April now, that only leaves me with Leontodon saxatilis, but these ones here don’t have nodding buds. Or Crepis capillaris but I haven’t seen any cauline leaves. Or the two Picris possibilities which I’d rather doubt in a lawn area, and anyway what is here is so close to glabrous as to be that (I think) in the stem department. So…ignore stated flowering times?
I’ll wander down to the park again tomorrow (or out onto the nature strip) and have a better look at all the features now I’ve spent more time reading the descriptions. When we go to the bush block I’ll take careful photos and notes too.
With herbs that include flat weeds they tend to flower in moist warm conditions, so usually when rainfall is due and moisture will last for several weeks, which can vary a little depending on location (coastal or mountainous areas). However, where rainfall extends for a longer period or unexpectedly heavy at a later period, some plants will flower again outside of their usual time.
Nodding buds on Leontodon saxatilis may be due to various reasons and I would doubt if that feature is an important characteristic, with other features being more important and reliable.
When dealing with flat weeds, they commonly have a rosette of leaves at or near ground level, a vertical flowering stem (a scape growing from the root) can be produced centrally upon which the flowers develop. The cauline leaves depict a vertical stem with leaves growing from it, there are no scapes involved. Some plants have a rosette of leaves, plus a stem with cauline leaves, but again no scapes are formed.
Cauline leaves can be just above the rosetted leaves and blend with them, or they can shrivel away in dry conditions, but there should not be a scape. Bit hard to say with your Crepis without looking at a specimen.
Thank you. I was misunderstanding the cauline leaves. So they are on non flowering stems then, and flowering stems are scapes?
(As I said, I’m still learning the language. I never did biology at school, so about 20 years ago I took on a cert IV in horticulture by correspondence mostly in order to get a bit of the basics. I didn’t finish the course because it was discontinued before it was supposed to finish, but it gave me some knowledge. I’m now dredging it up from the recesses of my brain and adding to it. I’ve never got into the detailed identification before, pretty much only having time while I was working to flip through a field guide looking for similar pictures. I’m now finding it interesting to get a bit deeper)
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PF, if you are about.I’ve put together my notes. I’ll have some questions tomorrow for you. But – flowering times. I think the quoted flowering times are perhaps rather unconvincing. I’m pretty certain the masses of yellow here at the moment are Hypochaeris yet they are supposed to only flower Aug to Dec. Being just short of April now, that only leaves me with Leontodon saxatilis, but these ones here don’t have nodding buds. Or Crepis capillaris but I haven’t seen any cauline leaves. Or the two Picris possibilities which I’d rather doubt in a lawn area, and anyway what is here is so close to glabrous as to be that (I think) in the stem department. So…ignore stated flowering times?
I’ll wander down to the park again tomorrow (or out onto the nature strip) and have a better look at all the features now I’ve spent more time reading the descriptions. When we go to the bush block I’ll take careful photos and notes too.
With herbs that include flat weeds they tend to flower in moist warm conditions, so usually when rainfall is due and moisture will last for several weeks, which can vary a little depending on location (coastal or mountainous areas). However, where rainfall extends for a longer period or unexpectedly heavy at a later period, some plants will flower again outside of their usual time.
Nodding buds on Leontodon saxatilis may be due to various reasons and I would doubt if that feature is an important characteristic, with other features being more important and reliable.
When dealing with flat weeds, they commonly have a rosette of leaves at or near ground level, a vertical flowering stem (a scape growing from the root) can be produced centrally upon which the flowers develop. The cauline leaves depict a vertical stem with leaves growing from it, there are no scapes involved. Some plants have a rosette of leaves, plus a stem with cauline leaves, but again no scapes are formed.
Cauline leaves can be just above the rosetted leaves and blend with them, or they can shrivel away in dry conditions, but there should not be a scape. Bit hard to say with your Crepis without looking at a specimen.
Thank you. I was misunderstanding the cauline leaves. So they are on non flowering stems then, and flowering stems are scapes?
(As I said, I’m still learning the language. I never did biology at school, so about 20 years ago I took on a cert IV in horticulture by correspondence mostly in order to get a bit of the basics. I didn’t finish the course because it was discontinued before it was supposed to finish, but it gave me some knowledge. I’m now dredging it up from the recesses of my brain and adding to it. I’ve never got into the detailed identification before, pretty much only having time while I was working to flip through a field guide looking for similar pictures. I’m now finding it interesting to get a bit deeper)
It is very interesting. It will help keep your mind active.
This key is really for the ones that grow in sodden ground, but is interesting. It doesn’t cover many of the ones I’m looking at at the moment. I don’t find the Sonchus difficult. They are taller plants.
http://vro.agriculture.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/vrosite.nsf/pages/sip_salt_yellow_daisy_key
>>I was misunderstanding the cauline leaves. So they are on non flowering stems then, and flowering stems are scapes?<<
Not really. Scapes are flowering stems (similar to a pedicel or peduncle) that grow directly from the roots (Dandelion like). Cauline leaves grow from a vegetative stem (Sonchus like) and the flowers grow from this stem atop a pedicle or from a peduncle (see Sonchus).
OK, I’ve been out to the nature strip with my old knife and brought in two examples of yellow daisies that might be called “dandelions”. I’ll make two posts. Even though I’ve read the descriptions, I’m still not sure how to ID these. The first is a smaller one, one flower to a stem, stems not branched, stems and leaves not hairy. Some of the buds are nodding, some aren’t. There was part of a seedhead there.
Photo of the back of the leaf, and one of the back of the flower. The “petals” are quite long compared to the bracts.
By simple flowering times, it should be a Crepis. Other things suggest Leontodon, but it’s not hairy. Perhaps it’s something else entirely.
PermeateFree said:
>>I was misunderstanding the cauline leaves. So they are on non flowering stems then, and flowering stems are scapes?<<Not really. Scapes are flowering stems (similar to a pedicel or peduncle) that grow directly from the roots (Dandelion like). Cauline leaves grow from a vegetative stem (Sonchus like) and the flowers grow from this stem atop a pedicle or from a peduncle (see Sonchus).
Oh, gotcha. Now you are here…I’ve been digging things up from the nature strip. Posts in the making.
And the other one is bigger/taller and the leaves are hairy but the stems are not. And the stems are ribbed.
Leaves definitely hairy here. Looks like simple hairs to me.
Again I can’t make it match anything. No seedhead on this one.
buffy said:
And the other one is bigger/taller and the leaves are hairy but the stems are not. And the stems are ribbed.
Leaves definitely hairy here. Looks like simple hairs to me.
Again I can’t make it match anything. No seedhead on this one.
If you are not used to looking at these flat weeds, particularly when they are flowering out of season and without mature achenes, especially when they are so variable, it would be pure guess work to key them out. However and you probably won’t believe me, but I think it is Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia. The cauline leaves on your specimen are very small, but if you look around you might find plants with larger leaves, but forget about finding the almost bushy plant as shown in the Flora of Victoria web site. When the flowers mature, post a picture of it for confirmation.
buffy said:
OK, I’ve been out to the nature strip with my old knife and brought in two examples of yellow daisies that might be called “dandelions”. I’ll make two posts. Even though I’ve read the descriptions, I’m still not sure how to ID these. The first is a smaller one, one flower to a stem, stems not branched, stems and leaves not hairy. Some of the buds are nodding, some aren’t. There was part of a seedhead there.
Photo of the back of the leaf, and one of the back of the flower. The “petals” are quite long compared to the bracts.
By simple flowering times, it should be a Crepis. Other things suggest Leontodon, but it’s not hairy. Perhaps it’s something else entirely.
From the Flora of Victoria site for Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis
>>Perennial herb 15–40 cm high, with sparse to dense, spreading 2- or 3-fid hairs.<<
With variables accepted, Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis is what you appear to have.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
And the other one is bigger/taller and the leaves are hairy but the stems are not. And the stems are ribbed.
Leaves definitely hairy here. Looks like simple hairs to me.
Again I can’t make it match anything. No seedhead on this one.
If you are not used to looking at these flat weeds, particularly when they are flowering out of season and without mature achenes, especially when they are so variable, it would be pure guess work to key them out. However and you probably won’t believe me, but I think it is Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia. The cauline leaves on your specimen are very small, but if you look around you might find plants with larger leaves, but forget about finding the almost bushy plant as shown in the Flora of Victoria web site. When the flowers mature, post a picture of it for confirmation.
Oh. That is the one I was sure would be a weed. It’s in the couch of our nature strip and gets regularly mowed. I’d better mark it’s brother and ask Mr buffy not to chop its head off until we can get a photo.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
OK, I’ve been out to the nature strip with my old knife and brought in two examples of yellow daisies that might be called “dandelions”. I’ll make two posts. Even though I’ve read the descriptions, I’m still not sure how to ID these. The first is a smaller one, one flower to a stem, stems not branched, stems and leaves not hairy. Some of the buds are nodding, some aren’t. There was part of a seedhead there.
Photo of the back of the leaf, and one of the back of the flower. The “petals” are quite long compared to the bracts.
By simple flowering times, it should be a Crepis. Other things suggest Leontodon, but it’s not hairy. Perhaps it’s something else entirely.
From the Flora of Victoria site for Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis
>>Perennial herb 15–40 cm high, with sparse to dense, spreading 2- or 3-fid hairs.<<With variables accepted, Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis is what you appear to have.
Thanks. That one is growing in the gravel of the driveway. I don’t know now I missed weeding it really. The rest of the “dandelions” I found in the yard were dandelions (Taraxacum) and I looked for enclosing upright bracts but didn’t find any. Didn’t expect to either. If the native one is around it’s more likely to be at the bush at Digby than here in Penshurst. But I will check the ones in the backyard tomorrow anyway, just in case.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
OK, I’ve been out to the nature strip with my old knife and brought in two examples of yellow daisies that might be called “dandelions”. I’ll make two posts. Even though I’ve read the descriptions, I’m still not sure how to ID these. The first is a smaller one, one flower to a stem, stems not branched, stems and leaves not hairy. Some of the buds are nodding, some aren’t. There was part of a seedhead there.
Photo of the back of the leaf, and one of the back of the flower. The “petals” are quite long compared to the bracts.
By simple flowering times, it should be a Crepis. Other things suggest Leontodon, but it’s not hairy. Perhaps it’s something else entirely.
From the Flora of Victoria site for Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis
>>Perennial herb 15–40 cm high, with sparse to dense, spreading 2- or 3-fid hairs.<<With variables accepted, Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis is what you appear to have.
Thanks. That one is growing in the gravel of the driveway. I don’t know now I missed weeding it really. The rest of the “dandelions” I found in the yard were dandelions (Taraxacum) and I looked for enclosing upright bracts but didn’t find any. Didn’t expect to either. If the native one is around it’s more likely to be at the bush at Digby than here in Penshurst. But I will check the ones in the backyard tomorrow anyway, just in case.
That’s the spirit. You won’t find anything unless you look.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:From the Flora of Victoria site for Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis
>>Perennial herb 15–40 cm high, with sparse to dense, spreading 2- or 3-fid hairs.<<With variables accepted, Leontodon saxatilis subsp. saxatilis is what you appear to have.
Thanks. That one is growing in the gravel of the driveway. I don’t know now I missed weeding it really. The rest of the “dandelions” I found in the yard were dandelions (Taraxacum) and I looked for enclosing upright bracts but didn’t find any. Didn’t expect to either. If the native one is around it’s more likely to be at the bush at Digby than here in Penshurst. But I will check the ones in the backyard tomorrow anyway, just in case.
That’s the spirit. You won’t find anything unless you look.
I did wonder what any tourists in our gardens would think yesterday when I was wandering around looking at “dandelion” flowers in the grass. The locals all know I’m mad, so they wouldn’t even look twice. “Liz and her flowers…”
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:Thanks. That one is growing in the gravel of the driveway. I don’t know now I missed weeding it really. The rest of the “dandelions” I found in the yard were dandelions (Taraxacum) and I looked for enclosing upright bracts but didn’t find any. Didn’t expect to either. If the native one is around it’s more likely to be at the bush at Digby than here in Penshurst. But I will check the ones in the backyard tomorrow anyway, just in case.
That’s the spirit. You won’t find anything unless you look.
I did wonder what any tourists in our gardens would think yesterday when I was wandering around looking at “dandelion” flowers in the grass. The locals all know I’m mad, so they wouldn’t even look twice. “Liz and her flowers…”
Probably thought you were hungry. :)
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:Thanks. That one is growing in the gravel of the driveway. I don’t know now I missed weeding it really. The rest of the “dandelions” I found in the yard were dandelions (Taraxacum) and I looked for enclosing upright bracts but didn’t find any. Didn’t expect to either. If the native one is around it’s more likely to be at the bush at Digby than here in Penshurst. But I will check the ones in the backyard tomorrow anyway, just in case.
That’s the spirit. You won’t find anything unless you look.
I did wonder what any tourists in our gardens would think yesterday when I was wandering around looking at “dandelion” flowers in the grass. The locals all know I’m mad, so they wouldn’t even look twice. “Liz and her flowers…”
Bunnies and guinea pigs like dandelions flowers
In case anyone here in town has missed the memo about how mad the woman at number 85 is, I have now cleared the couch grass back a bit and marked the plant in the nature strip. There are quite a number of them around that bit of grass. The one marked is the one I pulled the piece off yesterday to photograph. It’s got another flower stem with a flower almost out and a couple of buds. I’ll watch it and see what the seeds are like when they form. In the meantime, I hope this is obvious enough for the postie not to run into the stakes. Mr buffy has been advised that mowing it before I get the seeds is inadvisable.
:)
I’m also watching this one. I’ve got an experimental area in the front yard under a blackwood wattle where I have attempted to transplant various plants from the bush, along with some dirt from the bush scattered around. I guess next Spring I will find out if any of the orchids or lily types have survived. I’ve successfully moved some ivy leaved violets – they seem to be pretty tough little buggers. Kangaroo apple seedlings keep popping up but that is because I’ve got a couple of them around the garden. I’m pulling them out. Anyway, this has come up and I was going to pull it out last week but didn’t get around to it. Now I’m thinking I probably should wait and see how it pans out. Those leaves are quite big and it’s just putting up a flower stem now.
So, today out in the bush there are quite a lot of yellow “dandelion” daisies about and not much else. We are still waiting for the Autumn break rain. Anyhow, they all seem to be the same sort. We’ve got branched stems. Very small leaves (which I’d put down to lack of moisture). Flowering times say Picris. (Sorry about the flower picture, my camera preferred to photograph the ground) Not many seeds about, but I did find some.
buffy said:
So, today out in the bush there are quite a lot of yellow “dandelion” daisies about and not much else. We are still waiting for the Autumn break rain. Anyhow, they all seem to be the same sort. We’ve got branched stems. Very small leaves (which I’d put down to lack of moisture). Flowering times say Picris. (Sorry about the flower picture, my camera preferred to photograph the ground) Not many seeds about, but I did find some.
Yes, keys out perfectly to Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
So, today out in the bush there are quite a lot of yellow “dandelion” daisies about and not much else. We are still waiting for the Autumn break rain. Anyhow, they all seem to be the same sort. We’ve got branched stems. Very small leaves (which I’d put down to lack of moisture). Flowering times say Picris. (Sorry about the flower picture, my camera preferred to photograph the ground) Not many seeds about, but I did find some.
Yes, keys out perfectly to Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia
There really are a lot of them, on the roadside too. I’m rather pleased to think they aren’t a weed species.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
So, today out in the bush there are quite a lot of yellow “dandelion” daisies about and not much else. We are still waiting for the Autumn break rain. Anyhow, they all seem to be the same sort. We’ve got branched stems. Very small leaves (which I’d put down to lack of moisture). Flowering times say Picris. (Sorry about the flower picture, my camera preferred to photograph the ground) Not many seeds about, but I did find some.
Yes, keys out perfectly to Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia
There really are a lot of them, on the roadside too. I’m rather pleased to think they aren’t a weed species.
1987).4
Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.
https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:Yes, keys out perfectly to Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia
There really are a lot of them, on the roadside too. I’m rather pleased to think they aren’t a weed species.
1987).4 Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
Thank you. As we have discussed, the yellow “dandelion” flowers are rather difficult to distinguish from each other. I expect there is a lot of mistaken identity going on too.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:There really are a lot of them, on the roadside too. I’m rather pleased to think they aren’t a weed species.
1987).4 Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
Thank you. As we have discussed, the yellow “dandelion” flowers are rather difficult to distinguish from each other. I expect there is a lot of mistaken identity going on too.
Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:1987).4 Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
Thank you. As we have discussed, the yellow “dandelion” flowers are rather difficult to distinguish from each other. I expect there is a lot of mistaken identity going on too.
Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
I don’t think I have the background to get that involved but I’m certainly interested in reading that link.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:Thank you. As we have discussed, the yellow “dandelion” flowers are rather difficult to distinguish from each other. I expect there is a lot of mistaken identity going on too.
Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
I don’t think I have the background to get that involved but I’m certainly interested in reading that link.
From casual beginnings, this topic has turned out to be an engaging and informative discussion.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:1987).4 Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
Thank you. As we have discussed, the yellow “dandelion” flowers are rather difficult to distinguish from each other. I expect there is a lot of mistaken identity going on too.
Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
imprecations = implications
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:Thank you. As we have discussed, the yellow “dandelion” flowers are rather difficult to distinguish from each other. I expect there is a lot of mistaken identity going on too.
Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
imprecations = implications
Not being in the scene it’s a bit difficult for me to tell, but it seems to me that a lot of store is being given to genetics now too. I understand that is useful, but in some ways it is not. In the field, you have to rely on the phenotype you can look at.
I didn’t expect a casual decision to look at weeds while there is not much else about would turn out to be so interesting.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
imprecations = implications
Not being in the scene it’s a bit difficult for me to tell, but it seems to me that a lot of store is being given to genetics now too. I understand that is useful, but in some ways it is not. In the field, you have to rely on the phenotype you can look at.
I didn’t expect a casual decision to look at weeds while there is not much else about would turn out to be so interesting.
:) It is a fascinating world for sure.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:Yes, keys out perfectly to Picris angustifolia subsp. angustifolia
There really are a lot of them, on the roadside too. I’m rather pleased to think they aren’t a weed species.
1987).4 Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
Thank you, very interesting read. I do have a bit of a dislike for von Mueller…blackberries…
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:Heaps of misidentifications by professional botanists too. If you read the link provided you will see just how confusing it is and how various trends of thought influenced the direction of our understanding. IMO the ins and outs of Picris and its imprecations for other genera is the really exciting part of botany, but you need to be involved with the researchers.
imprecations = implications
Not being in the scene it’s a bit difficult for me to tell, but it seems to me that a lot of store is being given to genetics now too. I understand that is useful, but in some ways it is not. In the field, you have to rely on the phenotype you can look at.
I didn’t expect a casual decision to look at weeds while there is not much else about would turn out to be so interesting.
Botany is no difference to any other science that when new evidence is found if must be incorporated and if it changes the basics of current conclusions, then they must be changed regardless. Holotypes are the measuring rod to which all other specimens of that species are judged. Should the species be renamed due to recently acquired evolutionary information and this information is not represented on the holotype, then a neotype will be selected with this information and will be reclassified along with any botanical name change. Either way there is still a specimen from which the species was described.
Genetic information can be a reason to change classified species if it finds the evolutionary path is different to what was decided when relying on specimens alone. So genetics are very good at indicating relationships and the extent of that relationship between species. However with these flat weeds and their variations due to environmental factors, contamination with introduced species and the worldwide distribution of some, it will be extremely difficult to know where to start. Perhaps down the track some brave person might give a go.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:There really are a lot of them, on the roadside too. I’m rather pleased to think they aren’t a weed species.
1987).4 Under Lack’s supervision, Sebastian Holzapfel
undertook a complete revision of the genus in Australia
and increased the number of indigenous species to
ten, nine being endemic and one occurring also in
New Zealand (Holzapfel & Lack 1993; Holzapfel 1994).
This was in time for Jeff Jeanes to include P. angustifolia
subsp. angustifolia, P. angustifolia subsp. merxmuelleri,
P. barbarorum (possibly extinct) and P. squarrosa in the
Flora of Victoria (Jeanes 1999).
Thus, two centuries after Picris was first collected
in Australia, Lack and Holzapfel quashed the longheld belief that it was naturalised and confirmed the
earlier understanding of Robert Brown, Joseph Hooker
and, more tentatively, George Bentham, that Picris is
indigenous to Australia; but not as P. hieracioides.https://www.rbg.vic.gov.au/media/qxrdmqjx/muelleriavol_32_-_p39_gillbank.pdf
Thank you, very interesting read. I do have a bit of a dislike for von Mueller…blackberries…
Ah yes, the Acclimatisation Societies, they were the thing of his day Nevertheless he was a great man.
Update on the possible Picris: still waiting on seedhead maturation. I keep checking it, but it’s still all folded up on itself, not opening out yet.
And finally we get some seeds to look at on the Possible Picris. It sat at this stage for ages and ages and my impatience got all the reward it deserved…this photo is two days ago.
And today we have an open seed head. I tried a couple of ways of photographing it. One of these gives good detail of the seeds.
buffy said:
And finally we get some seeds to look at on the Possible Picris. It sat at this stage for ages and ages and my impatience got all the reward it deserved…this photo is two days ago.
And today we have an open seed head. I tried a couple of ways of photographing it. One of these gives good detail of the seeds.
Very well done.
I’m now suspicious it is Hypochaeris radicata flowering well out of season.
buffy said:
I’m now suspicious it is Hypochaeris radicata flowering well out of season.
It is one of those years where things keep flowering.
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
I’m now suspicious it is Hypochaeris radicata flowering well out of season.
It is one of those years where things keep flowering.
Not around here. We are still waiting for rain. Dry as. I’ll have to water the veggies again tonight.
buffy said:
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
I’m now suspicious it is Hypochaeris radicata flowering well out of season.
It is one of those years where things keep flowering.
Not around here. We are still waiting for rain. Dry as. I’ll have to water the veggies again tonight.
OH. Usually it is the other way around.
This year here, the mallee has had several outbursts of flowers.
buffy said:
And finally we get some seeds to look at on the Possible Picris. It sat at this stage for ages and ages and my impatience got all the reward it deserved…this photo is two days ago.
And today we have an open seed head. I tried a couple of ways of photographing it. One of these gives good detail of the seeds.
Yes definitely Hypochaeris radicata, the silver scales shown in your photo confirms it.
From the Flora of Victoria key: “Receptacle of capitula with scales between florets”
When photographing, it is best to remove around half of the achenes to get a better view of them and their attachments. Odd flowering plants of many species commonly flower out of their normal season. Flowers of Hypochaeris radicata mostly Aug.–Dec.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
And finally we get some seeds to look at on the Possible Picris. It sat at this stage for ages and ages and my impatience got all the reward it deserved…this photo is two days ago.
And today we have an open seed head. I tried a couple of ways of photographing it. One of these gives good detail of the seeds.
Yes definitely Hypochaeris radicata, the silver scales shown in your photo confirms it.
From the Flora of Victoria key: “Receptacle of capitula with scales between florets”
When photographing, it is best to remove around half of the achenes to get a better view of them and their attachments. Odd flowering plants of many species commonly flower out of their normal season. Flowers of Hypochaeris radicata mostly Aug.–Dec.
I might add that those scales are at the start of the Asteraceae key and if you cannot identify them, then everything following in the key will be incorrect, as will the identification of the plant.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
And finally we get some seeds to look at on the Possible Picris. It sat at this stage for ages and ages and my impatience got all the reward it deserved…this photo is two days ago.
And today we have an open seed head. I tried a couple of ways of photographing it. One of these gives good detail of the seeds.
Yes definitely Hypochaeris radicata, the silver scales shown in your photo confirms it.
From the Flora of Victoria key: “Receptacle of capitula with scales between florets”
When photographing, it is best to remove around half of the achenes to get a better view of them and their attachments. Odd flowering plants of many species commonly flower out of their normal season. Flowers of Hypochaeris radicata mostly Aug.–Dec.
The silver scales would be the dessicated petals, wouldn’t they?
And thanks for your help. This has been very interesting. And I’ve learnt about beaked seeds. I did try to take some photos with half of the achenes pulled off, but these ones worked better, coming from underneath. In fact some are removed in these photos. The texture on the seeds is impressive.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
And finally we get some seeds to look at on the Possible Picris. It sat at this stage for ages and ages and my impatience got all the reward it deserved…this photo is two days ago.
And today we have an open seed head. I tried a couple of ways of photographing it. One of these gives good detail of the seeds.
Yes definitely Hypochaeris radicata, the silver scales shown in your photo confirms it.
From the Flora of Victoria key: “Receptacle of capitula with scales between florets”
When photographing, it is best to remove around half of the achenes to get a better view of them and their attachments. Odd flowering plants of many species commonly flower out of their normal season. Flowers of Hypochaeris radicata mostly Aug.–Dec.
The silver scales would be the dessicated petals, wouldn’t they?
Think you might be right, but remove some of the achenes to get a view of the scales. I would be interested to see them.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:Yes definitely Hypochaeris radicata, the silver scales shown in your photo confirms it.
From the Flora of Victoria key: “Receptacle of capitula with scales between florets”
When photographing, it is best to remove around half of the achenes to get a better view of them and their attachments. Odd flowering plants of many species commonly flower out of their normal season. Flowers of Hypochaeris radicata mostly Aug.–Dec.
The silver scales would be the dessicated petals, wouldn’t they?
Think you might be right, but remove some of the achenes to get a view of the scales. I would be interested to see them.
Hang about – I had to retrieve it from the compost bin. Fortunately it was still sitting on top. I’ll see what I can do, but it’s very much inclined to fall apart now it’s been off the plant for a few hours.
OK. Mostly they fell off, but there is one picture with one still attached.
And here they are sitting on my piece of felt. I’m so glad I kept the pair of tweezers from the optical workshop that have the little light in them!
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:The silver scales would be the dessicated petals, wouldn’t they?
Think you might be right, but remove some of the achenes to get a view of the scales. I would be interested to see them.
Hang about – I had to retrieve it from the compost bin. Fortunately it was still sitting on top. I’ll see what I can do, but it’s very much inclined to fall apart now it’s been off the plant for a few hours.
What we need to see is the platform where the achenes are attached, hopefully with one or two achenes still attached.
buffy said:
OK. Mostly they fell off, but there is one picture with one still attached.
And here they are sitting on my piece of felt. I’m so glad I kept the pair of tweezers from the optical workshop that have the little light in them!
Ah yes, you can see the very small scales on the platform base. If you look at a Dandelion it is pitted where the achenes are attached.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
OK. Mostly they fell off, but there is one picture with one still attached.
And here they are sitting on my piece of felt. I’m so glad I kept the pair of tweezers from the optical workshop that have the little light in them!
Ah yes, you can see the very small scales on the platform base. If you look at a Dandelion it is pitted where the achenes are attached.
Looks like I was right for the wrong reason. A great help when you have an actual specimen.
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
OK. Mostly they fell off, but there is one picture with one still attached.
And here they are sitting on my piece of felt. I’m so glad I kept the pair of tweezers from the optical workshop that have the little light in them!
Ah yes, you can see the very small scales on the platform base. If you look at a Dandelion it is pitted where the achenes are attached.
Looks like I was right for the wrong reason. A great help when you have an actual specimen.
I’ll return the bits to the compost…
:)
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:Ah yes, you can see the very small scales on the platform base. If you look at a Dandelion it is pitted where the achenes are attached.
Looks like I was right for the wrong reason. A great help when you have an actual specimen.
I’ll return the bits to the compost…
:)
If you are keeping plant specimens, then press it with them. It is an important ID feature.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:Looks like I was right for the wrong reason. A great help when you have an actual specimen.
I’ll return the bits to the compost…
:)
If you are keeping plant specimens, then press it with them. It is an important ID feature.
I haven’t moved to that level yet. I used to press flowers, but with my recent learning I’ve been just doing photos. (I’m not sure you should have suggested that…I may have to go further down the rabbit hole)
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:Looks like I was right for the wrong reason. A great help when you have an actual specimen.
I’ll return the bits to the compost…
:)
If you are keeping plant specimens, then press it with them. It is an important ID feature.
There are only two genera in Victoria with that feature and the other is a thistle, so all other flat-weeds do not have it, which is what I assumed originally without the benefit of recent detail.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:I’ll return the bits to the compost…
:)
If you are keeping plant specimens, then press it with them. It is an important ID feature.
I haven’t moved to that level yet. I used to press flowers, but with my recent learning I’ve been just doing photos. (I’m not sure you should have suggested that…I may have to go further down the rabbit hole)
It is terribly difficult to id plants from photos alone, unless all important details are captured, which otherwise means you must assume some features that can really get you lost, which is why in my blog I include several photos showing different details. Most professionals will not look at plant photos for id purposes unless they know the photographer and have a good working relationship with them.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:If you are keeping plant specimens, then press it with them. It is an important ID feature.
I haven’t moved to that level yet. I used to press flowers, but with my recent learning I’ve been just doing photos. (I’m not sure you should have suggested that…I may have to go further down the rabbit hole)
It is terribly difficult to id plants from photos alone, unless all important details are captured, which otherwise means you must assume some features that can really get you lost, which is why in my blog I include several photos showing different details. Most professionals will not look at plant photos for id purposes unless they know the photographer and have a good working relationship with them.
I have learnt the value of quite a lot of detail in photos recently. I’m pretty much to the stage of always taking top and bottom of flowers and leaves and I’m working on knowing when to also cover seeds and stipules. I’m getting reasonable at family level and not too bad for some genus level stuff. For the present I’m restricting myself to plants likely to be here in Penshurst or at our block at Digby. And the Grampians. I’m making myself lists of what might be there, and their distinguishing details, from the VicFlora pages and a couple of local books.I don’t generally take orchids too far, although I do love the easy ones like waxlips. And Brunonia australis is fabulous – there isn’t anything else it could be! I may have taken on the “dandelions” far too early in my journey.
:)
:)
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:I haven’t moved to that level yet. I used to press flowers, but with my recent learning I’ve been just doing photos. (I’m not sure you should have suggested that…I may have to go further down the rabbit hole)
It is terribly difficult to id plants from photos alone, unless all important details are captured, which otherwise means you must assume some features that can really get you lost, which is why in my blog I include several photos showing different details. Most professionals will not look at plant photos for id purposes unless they know the photographer and have a good working relationship with them.
I have learnt the value of quite a lot of detail in photos recently. I’m pretty much to the stage of always taking top and bottom of flowers and leaves and I’m working on knowing when to also cover seeds and stipules. I’m getting reasonable at family level and not too bad for some genus level stuff. For the present I’m restricting myself to plants likely to be here in Penshurst or at our block at Digby. And the Grampians. I’m making myself lists of what might be there, and their distinguishing details, from the VicFlora pages and a couple of local books.I don’t generally take orchids too far, although I do love the easy ones like waxlips. And Brunonia australis is fabulous – there isn’t anything else it could be! I may have taken on the “dandelions” far too early in my journey.
:)
:)
Yes, flat-weeds and other Asteraceae can be tricky, as can Orchids and Eucalyptus strangely enough, the former known as Troublesome Plants with good reason and eucs due to variability of shape in buds and fruits. Botany is such a huge subject that you never stop learning and are always being confronted with things you have never seen before, but like playing a musical instrument it is practice, practice and practice, which is why you need a love of the subject to persist.
