Date: 5/04/2022 02:48:18
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868977
Subject: Many Worlds and Their Problems

We were briefly discussing the universal wave function the other day, and I questioned whether such a critter is really real.

This fellow suspects not, and he’s certainly not the only one:

The idea that the universe splits into multiple realities with every measurement has become an increasingly popular proposed solution to the mysteries of quantum mechanics. But this “many-worlds interpretation” is incoherent, Philip Ball argues in this adapted excerpt from his recent book Beyond Weird.

…..The MWI is surely the most polarizing of interpretations. Some physicists consider it almost self-evidently absurd; “Everettians,” meanwhile, are often unshakable in their conviction that this is the most logical, consistent way to think about quantum mechanics. Some of them insist that it is the only plausible interpretation — for the arch-Everettian David Deutsch, it is not in fact an “interpretation” of quantum theory at all, any more than dinosaurs are an “interpretation” of the fossil record. It is simply what quantum mechanics is. “The only astonishing thing is that that’s still controversial,” Deutsch says.

My own view is that the problems with the MWI are overwhelming — not because they show it must be wrong, but because they render it incoherent. It simply cannot be articulated meaningfully.

I’ll attempt to summarize the problems, but first, let’s dispense with a wrong objection. Some criticize the MWI on aesthetic grounds: People object to all those countless other universes, multiplying by the trillion every nanosecond, because it just doesn’t seem proper. Other copies of me? Other world histories? Worlds where I never existed? Honestly, whatever next! This objection is rightly dismissed by saying that an affront to one’s sense of propriety is no grounds for rejecting a theory. Who are we to say how the world should behave?

A stronger objection to the proliferation of worlds is not so much all this extra stuff you’re making, but the insouciance with which it is made. Roland Omnès says the idea that every little quantum “measurement” spawns a world “gives an undue importance to the little differences generated by quantum events, as if each of them were vital to the universe.” This, he says, is contrary to what we generally learn from physics: that most of the fine details make no difference at all to what happens at larger scales.

But one of the most serious difficulties with the MWI is what it does to the notion of self. What can it mean to say that splittings generate copies of me? In what sense are those other copies “me?”

Brian Greene, a well-known physics popularizer with Everettian inclinations, insists simply that “each copy is you.” You just need to broaden your mind beyond your parochial idea of what “you” means. Each of these individuals has its own consciousness, and so each believes he or she is “you” — but the real “you” is their sum total.

There’s an enticing frisson to this idea. But in fact the very familiarity of the centuries-old doppelgänger trope prepares us to accept it rather casually, and as a result the level of the discourse about our alleged replica selves is often shockingly shallow — as if all we need contemplate is something like teleportation gone awry in an episode of “Star Trek.” We are not being astonished but, rather, flattered by these images. They sound transgressively exciting while being easily recognizable as plotlines from novels and movies.

Tegmark waxes lyrical about his copies: “I feel a strong kinship with parallel Maxes, even though I never get to meet them. They share my values, my feelings, my memories — they’re closer to me than brothers.” But this romantic picture has, in truth, rather little to do with the realities of the MWI. The “quantum brothers” are an infinitesimally small sample cherry-picked for congruence with our popular fantasies. What about all those “copies” differing in details graduating from the trivial to the utterly transformative?

……Consciousness relies on experience, and experience is not an instantaneous property: It takes time, not least because the brain’s neurons themselves take a few milliseconds to fire. You can’t “locate” consciousness in a universe that is frantically splitting countless times every nanosecond, any more than you can fit a summer into a day.

One might reply that this doesn’t matter, so long as there’s a perception of continuity threading through all those splittings. But in what can that perception reside, if not in a conscious entity?

And if consciousness — or mind, call it what you will — were somehow able to snake along just one path in the quantum multiverse, then we’d have to regard it as some nonphysical entity immune to the laws of (quantum) physics. For how can it do that when nothing else does?

The rest of it

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Date: 5/04/2022 02:52:16
From: dv
ID: 1868978
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

Universal wave function does not imply many-worlds, not even weakly.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:07:06
From: dv
ID: 1868979
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

dv said:


Universal wave function does not imply many-worlds, not even weakly.

To elaborate: the universal wave function is a probabilistic description of the universe that is based on an observation on how we know things work at an atomic or molecular level. The notion that we can apply such concepts universally requires assumptions and is not entirely without its critics but it is a logical extension.

Many-worlds theories certainly require a universal wave function as a theoretical platform but it doesn’t flow from it as a matter of course and is not implied by it. The fleas need the dog but the dog doesn’t need the fleas. The SWE as applied to atoms and small molecules is quite uncontroversial whereas the idea that a hydrogen atom is generating a myriad of universes every moment is somewhat, shall we say, philosophical.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:07:36
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868980
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

dv said:


Universal wave function does not imply many-worlds, not even weakly.

Goodo, but we’re considering it in the context of the idea that it is objectively real, as described by Everett in his “relative state formulation”, later termed “many worlds” by Bryce DeWitt.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:09:41
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868981
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

dv said:


dv said:

Universal wave function does not imply many-worlds, not even weakly.

To elaborate: the universal wave function is a probabilistic description of the universe that is based on an observation on how we know things work at an atomic or molecular level. The notion that we can apply such concepts universally requires assumptions and is not entirely without its critics but it is a logical extension.

Many-worlds theories certainly require a universal wave function as a theoretical platform but it doesn’t flow from it as a matter of course and is not implied by it. The fleas need the dog but the dog doesn’t need the fleas. The SWE as applied to atoms and small molecules is quite uncontroversial whereas the idea that a hydrogen atom is generating a myriad of universes every moment is somewhat, shall we say, philosophical.

As I said, I questioned whether such a critter is “really real”. Many worlds asserts that it is. Hence, this thread.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:26:44
From: dv
ID: 1868982
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

Bubblecar said:


dv said:

dv said:

Universal wave function does not imply many-worlds, not even weakly.

To elaborate: the universal wave function is a probabilistic description of the universe that is based on an observation on how we know things work at an atomic or molecular level. The notion that we can apply such concepts universally requires assumptions and is not entirely without its critics but it is a logical extension.

Many-worlds theories certainly require a universal wave function as a theoretical platform but it doesn’t flow from it as a matter of course and is not implied by it. The fleas need the dog but the dog doesn’t need the fleas. The SWE as applied to atoms and small molecules is quite uncontroversial whereas the idea that a hydrogen atom is generating a myriad of universes every moment is somewhat, shall we say, philosophical.

As I said, I questioned whether such a critter is “really real”. Many worlds asserts that it is. Hence, this thread.

Okay. MWI may not be real. The function is real as much as anything is: it’s just a description but describe is all we can do.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:38:09
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868984
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

dv said:


Bubblecar said:

dv said:

To elaborate: the universal wave function is a probabilistic description of the universe that is based on an observation on how we know things work at an atomic or molecular level. The notion that we can apply such concepts universally requires assumptions and is not entirely without its critics but it is a logical extension.

Many-worlds theories certainly require a universal wave function as a theoretical platform but it doesn’t flow from it as a matter of course and is not implied by it. The fleas need the dog but the dog doesn’t need the fleas. The SWE as applied to atoms and small molecules is quite uncontroversial whereas the idea that a hydrogen atom is generating a myriad of universes every moment is somewhat, shall we say, philosophical.

As I said, I questioned whether such a critter is “really real”. Many worlds asserts that it is. Hence, this thread.

Okay. MWI may not be real. The function is real as much as anything is: it’s just a description but describe is all we can do.

I’m interested in KJW’s response to Ball’s article, since KJW always used to be a Many Worlds disciple :)

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:38:43
From: dv
ID: 1868985
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

Bubblecar said:


dv said:

Bubblecar said:

As I said, I questioned whether such a critter is “really real”. Many worlds asserts that it is. Hence, this thread.

Okay. MWI may not be real. The function is real as much as anything is: it’s just a description but describe is all we can do.

I’m interested in KJW’s response to Ball’s article, since KJW always used to be a Many Worlds disciple :)

Okay I’ll pipe on down.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:39:49
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868986
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

dv said:


Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Okay. MWI may not be real. The function is real as much as anything is: it’s just a description but describe is all we can do.

I’m interested in KJW’s response to Ball’s article, since KJW always used to be a Many Worlds disciple :)

Okay I’ll pipe on down.

No need, contribute whatever you like.

I didn’t mean to sound dismissive.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:41:32
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1868987
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

> We were briefly discussing the universal wave function the other day, and I questioned whether such a critter is really real.

You’re not the only one. There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics where it doesn’t exist, such as the transactional interpretation where an antiparticle is seen as a particle literally travelling backwards in time.

Another interpretation I have a liking for is that the universe is un-repeatable. The ensemble average (wave function) doesn’t exist because you can never replicate a quantum experiment. And if you can never replicate a quantum experiment then you can’t have a probability, because to make up a probability the experiment has to be repeatable. Essentially this idea takes the many-worlds interpretation and disposes of all worlds except the real one.

Bubblecar said:


We were briefly discussing the universal wave function the other day, and I questioned whether such a critter is really real.

This fellow suspects not, and he’s certainly not the only one:

The idea that the universe splits into multiple realities with every measurement has become an increasingly popular proposed solution to the mysteries of quantum mechanics. But this “many-worlds interpretation” is incoherent, Philip Ball argues in this adapted excerpt from his recent book Beyond Weird.

…..The MWI is surely the most polarizing of interpretations. Some physicists consider it almost self-evidently absurd; “Everettians,” meanwhile, are often unshakable in their conviction that this is the most logical, consistent way to think about quantum mechanics. Some of them insist that it is the only plausible interpretation — for the arch-Everettian David Deutsch, it is not in fact an “interpretation” of quantum theory at all, any more than dinosaurs are an “interpretation” of the fossil record. It is simply what quantum mechanics is. “The only astonishing thing is that that’s still controversial,” Deutsch says.

My own view is that the problems with the MWI are overwhelming

Up to here I agree. Particularly about it being the most polarising of interpretations.

> But one of the most serious difficulties with the MWI is what it does to the notion of self.

From here on, the author of the quoted article shows himself to be an utter and total nutter.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:47:07
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868988
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

mollwollfumble said:


> We were briefly discussing the universal wave function the other day, and I questioned whether such a critter is really real.

You’re not the only one. There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics where it doesn’t exist, such as the transactional interpretation where an antiparticle is seen as a particle literally travelling backwards in time.

Another interpretation I have a liking for is that the universe is un-repeatable. The ensemble average (wave function) doesn’t exist because you can never replicate a quantum experiment. And if you can never replicate a quantum experiment then you can’t have a probability, because to make up a probability the experiment has to be repeatable. Essentially this idea takes the many-worlds interpretation and disposes of all worlds except the real one.

Bubblecar said:


We were briefly discussing the universal wave function the other day, and I questioned whether such a critter is really real.

This fellow suspects not, and he’s certainly not the only one:

The idea that the universe splits into multiple realities with every measurement has become an increasingly popular proposed solution to the mysteries of quantum mechanics. But this “many-worlds interpretation” is incoherent, Philip Ball argues in this adapted excerpt from his recent book Beyond Weird.

…..The MWI is surely the most polarizing of interpretations. Some physicists consider it almost self-evidently absurd; “Everettians,” meanwhile, are often unshakable in their conviction that this is the most logical, consistent way to think about quantum mechanics. Some of them insist that it is the only plausible interpretation — for the arch-Everettian David Deutsch, it is not in fact an “interpretation” of quantum theory at all, any more than dinosaurs are an “interpretation” of the fossil record. It is simply what quantum mechanics is. “The only astonishing thing is that that’s still controversial,” Deutsch says.

My own view is that the problems with the MWI are overwhelming

Up to here I agree. Particularly about it being the most polarising of interpretations.

> But one of the most serious difficulties with the MWI is what it does to the notion of self.

From here on, the author of the quoted article shows himself to be an utter and total nutter.

As usual, you fail to grasp the basics.

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Date: 5/04/2022 03:54:22
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1868989
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

Bubblecar said:


dv said:

Bubblecar said:

I’m interested in KJW’s response to Ball’s article, since KJW always used to be a Many Worlds disciple :)

Okay I’ll pipe on down.

No need, contribute whatever you like.

I didn’t mean to sound dismissive.

To me one of the difficulties with Many Worlds is how a macroscopic creature such as a human being, so spectacularly pre-determined on an evolutionary and social level, supposedly becomes reduced to the vagaries of physics on a much more primitive level, while still supposedly retaining its reality as a complex, interactive deterministic history.

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Date: 5/04/2022 07:47:11
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1869005
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

Bubblecar said:


Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Okay I’ll pipe on down.

No need, contribute whatever you like.

I didn’t mean to sound dismissive.

To me one of the difficulties with Many Worlds is how a macroscopic creature such as a human being, so spectacularly pre-determined on an evolutionary and social level, supposedly becomes reduced to the vagaries of physics on a much more primitive level, while still supposedly retaining its reality as a complex, interactive deterministic history.

I will read and provide my learned opinion later :)

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Date: 5/04/2022 10:37:12
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1869027
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

The Rev Dodgson said:


Bubblecar said:

Bubblecar said:

No need, contribute whatever you like.

I didn’t mean to sound dismissive.

To me one of the difficulties with Many Worlds is how a macroscopic creature such as a human being, so spectacularly pre-determined on an evolutionary and social level, supposedly becomes reduced to the vagaries of physics on a much more primitive level, while still supposedly retaining its reality as a complex, interactive deterministic history.

I will read and provide my learned opinion later :)

No worries.

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Date: 5/04/2022 12:35:28
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1869088
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

Bubblecar said:

As usual, you fail to grasp the basics.

You consider religious philosophy to be a “basic”?

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Date: 5/04/2022 15:07:23
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1869184
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

as wise have said we hold position that it’s all just a formalism with no added meaningful utility

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Date: 5/04/2022 19:18:17
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1869322
Subject: re: Many Worlds and Their Problems

SCIENCE said:


as wise have said we hold position that it’s all just a formalism with no added meaningful utility

Yes. I think.
It only becomes important when we start talking about physics beyond the standard model.

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