I’m going to risk this topic.

I got wondering about the hormone protocols the other day. Here is an outline from Boston Uni.

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/endo/clinics/transgender-medicine/guidelines/

Now, my training didn’t cover any of this sort of stuff. Optometrists in my training days did pretty much all body systems except reproduction and eating. So I had to do a little more reading. I understand for males most (but not all) testosterone is produced in the testes. In the male to female transitioners, they use a blocking drug on this, and also add oestrogen to the system. In female to male though, there does not appear to be any oestrogen blocking, just the addition of more testosterone to the body.

So if a female to male transitioner does not have ovaries removed, their body is dealing with a full complement of female hormones, plus some extra testosterone. (I know that not all oestrogen is produced in the ovaries, but most of it is). I guess this explains the warnings to this group about osteoporosis and cardio risks.

And linking it into the news stories today about transgender sport…haven’t we been telling people for years and years not to up their testosterone for sport because it’s not good for your general physiology? For the female to male transitioners, they seem to be doing just what certain countries did to their athletes.

Poik can put me straight on the specifics if I’m misunderstanding.

Now, I’ll just go over to the door before submitting and be ready to run…

It’s usually just testosterone for the female to male change via depot injections, testosterones effects are quick in comparison to oestrogens.

With regards to sport, this guy seems reasonable and scientific. Plenty of links on his blog, refs and opinion.

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/on-dsds-the-theory-of-testosterone-performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/?doing_wp_cron=1650539884.7526381015777587890625

poikilotherm said:

It’s usually just testosterone for the female to male change via depot injections, testosterones effects are quick in comparison to oestrogens.

So it’s quite similar (if not the same) as the athletes? With all the attendant side effects.

buffy said:

poikilotherm said:

It’s usually just testosterone for the female to male change via depot injections, testosterones effects are quick in comparison to oestrogens.

So it’s quite similar (if not the same) as the athletes? With all the attendant side effects.

Yep. Dose is consistent for longer as you’re not trying to hide it though – when compared to athletes.

poikilotherm said:

With regards to sport, this guy seems reasonable and scientific. Plenty of links on his blog, refs and opinion.

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/on-dsds-the-theory-of-testosterone-performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/?doing_wp_cron=1650539884.7526381015777587890625

Thanks, I’ll have a look at that. This group seems to be gathering information, kind of like Cochrane, but smaller and targetted.

https://segm.org/

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

poikilotherm said:

It’s usually just testosterone for the female to male change via depot injections, testosterones effects are quick in comparison to oestrogens.

So it’s quite similar (if not the same) as the athletes? With all the attendant side effects.

Yep. Dose is consistent for longer as you’re not trying to hide it though – when compared to athletes.

I see from the link I put in the OP that it’s pretty much 6 monthly medical reviews (which would include blood tests I guess for levels) for life. And watch out for bone density and cardiovascular (lipid) trouble.

buffy said:

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

So it’s quite similar (if not the same) as the athletes? With all the attendant side effects.

Yep. Dose is consistent for longer as you’re not trying to hide it though – when compared to athletes.

I see from the link I put in the OP that it’s pretty much 6 monthly medical reviews (which would include blood tests I guess for levels) for life. And watch out for bone density and cardiovascular (lipid) trouble.

Clots are the highest risk I think from Polycythemia.

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

poikilotherm said:

Yep. Dose is consistent for longer as you’re not trying to hide it though – when compared to athletes.

I see from the link I put in the OP that it’s pretty much 6 monthly medical reviews (which would include blood tests I guess for levels) for life. And watch out for bone density and cardiovascular (lipid) trouble.

Clots are the highest risk I think from Polycythemia.

Thanks for that read.

If I want to know about any transgender medical issues, I ask missy.
She/he is heavily into queer society, and knows a lot of transgender people.
So any specific question you want to ask, I’ll pass it on.

I steer clear of this debate, it’s none of my business.

If people who menstruate are happy to have transwomen are women routinely beating them at sports and hanging around their toilets, refuges and prisons etc, it’s hardly my place to object to these things.

True women – i.e., transwomen are women – should be able to do as they wish without having to face bigotry from so-called biological males like me, much less from people who menstruate.

Ditto if more and more confused teenaged people who menstruate are having their breasts cut off while being pumped full of hormones, obviously that must be good for them if the doctors say so.

Bubblecar said:

I steer clear of this debate, it’s none of my business.

If people who menstruate are happy to have transwomen are women routinely beating them at sports and hanging around their toilets, refuges and prisons etc, it’s hardly my place to object to these things.

True women – i.e., transwomen are women – should be able to do as they wish without having to face bigotry from so-called biological males like me, much less from people who menstruate.

Ditto if more and more confused teenaged people who menstruate are having their breasts cut off while being pumped full of hormones, obviously that must be good for them if the doctors say so.

I steer clear of this debate, it’s none of my business

Gender identity disorder in children is 302.6 in DSM-IV
Gender identity disorder in adolescents or adults is 302.85

It falls under the same general class of disorders as hyperactive sexual desire, sexual arousal disorders, paraphilias, exhibitionism, paedophilia, voyeurism.

These as a group are generally minor by comparison to other mental disorders, and don’t preclude a normal existence.

I can’t help it if people who have had the operation dislike those who have had hormones but not the operation.
Or if those who have had hormones dislike those who use purely physical methods to change their gender appearance.
Or if those who use purely physical methods to change their gender appearance dislike transvestites.
Or if transvestites dislike straights.

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

I steer clear of this debate, it’s none of my business.

If people who menstruate are happy to have transwomen are women routinely beating them at sports and hanging around their toilets, refuges and prisons etc, it’s hardly my place to object to these things.

True women – i.e., transwomen are women – should be able to do as they wish without having to face bigotry from so-called biological males like me, much less from people who menstruate.

Ditto if more and more confused teenaged people who menstruate are having their breasts cut off while being pumped full of hormones, obviously that must be good for them if the doctors say so.

I steer clear of this debate, it’s none of my business

Gender identity disorder in children is 302.6 in DSM-IV
Gender identity disorder in adolescents or adults is 302.85

It falls under the same general class of disorders as hyperactive sexual desire, sexual arousal disorders, paraphilias, exhibitionism, paedophilia, voyeurism.

These as a group are generally minor by comparison to other mental disorders, and don’t preclude a normal existence.

I can’t help it if people who have had the operation dislike those who have had hormones but not the operation.
Or if those who have had hormones dislike those who use purely physical methods to change their gender appearance.
Or if those who use purely physical methods to change their gender appearance dislike transvestites.
Or if transvestites dislike straights.

It comes down to if they are one of the above but also a douche bag but use the above to say people discriminate when most actual don’t like them as a person

I’m probably a bit slow noticing this, but the treatment being given to female to male transitioners is pretty much the same as what athletes have been doing for some time. So there is quite a good knowledge of the unwanted effects in terms of general health. It looks dangerous to me. Here is an outline from the Mayo clinic. You only need to read the testosterone section.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134

> pretty much the same as what athletes have been doing for some time

Reminds me of the infamous East German Olympic team. 1976 Montreal.

In UK:

Health Secretary Sajid Javid is set to launch a review into gender treatment for minors as he believes the current system is ‘failing children’.

It is reported the health secretary believes vulnerable children are wrongly being given gender hormone treatment and has compared the discussion of the topic to the fear of racism when investigating grooming gangs in Rotherham.

The 52-year-old is believed to be worried after a recent interim report by Hilary Cass, former president Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, found shortcomings in the way children are treated for gender identity problems.

The Times reports Mr Javid was concerned to read in the report that some staff felt ‘pressure to adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach’ to transitioning.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10745129/Health-Secretary-Sajid-Javid-believes-current-child-gender-treatment-failing-children.html

As coincidence would have it, I actually had a beer with a woman the other night who had transitioned at the age of 17.

She was describing going through a second puberty at around 30, where her body went through a surge of feminisation and the result is rather convincing. Apart from some slightly masculine facial features, the rest of her body shape is that of a woman.

If this is part of the normal process, maybe these trans athletes need to wait until after this second puberty before they can compete properly.

Dark Orange said:

As coincidence would have it, I actually had a beer with a woman the other night who had transitioned at the age of 17.

She was describing going through a second puberty at around 30, where her body went through a surge of feminisation and the result is rather convincing. Apart from some slightly masculine facial features, the rest of her body shape is that of a woman.

If this is part of the normal process, maybe these trans athletes need to wait until after this second puberty before they can compete properly.

She must have stopped the testosterone supplements. It’s a lifetime thing. Once you transition, you are in the medical loop for life.

buffy said:

Dark Orange said:

As coincidence would have it, I actually had a beer with a woman the other night who had transitioned at the age of 17.

She was describing going through a second puberty at around 30, where her body went through a surge of feminisation and the result is rather convincing. Apart from some slightly masculine facial features, the rest of her body shape is that of a woman.

If this is part of the normal process, maybe these trans athletes need to wait until after this second puberty before they can compete properly.

She must have stopped the testosterone supplements. It’s a lifetime thing. Once you transition, you are in the medical loop for life.

Oh, hang on…you are talking natal male going to female? I was thinking the other direction.

buffy said:

She must have stopped the testosterone supplements. It’s a lifetime thing. Once you transition, you are in the medical loop for life.

I received a petition email about providing this procedure (whose name was new to me) yesterday.

“In addition to alleviating gender dysphoria, the procedure allows trans women to stop taking testosterone-blocking medications, which may cause unwanted side effects.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchiectomy#Orchiectomy_as_a_gender_reassignment_procedure

Bubblecar said:

In UK:

Health Secretary Sajid Javid is set to launch a review into gender treatment for minors as he believes the current system is ‘failing children’.

It is reported the health secretary believes vulnerable children are wrongly being given gender hormone treatment and has compared the discussion of the topic to the fear of racism when investigating grooming gangs in Rotherham.

The 52-year-old is believed to be worried after a recent interim report by Hilary Cass, former president Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, found shortcomings in the way children are treated for gender identity problems.

The Times reports Mr Javid was concerned to read in the report that some staff felt ‘pressure to adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach’ to transitioning.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10745129/Health-Secretary-Sajid-Javid-believes-current-child-gender-treatment-failing-children.html

Sweden, UK, Finland and (I think) France have very recently really tightened up on the puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones for teenagers. They are only allowed to be used in very tight circumstances, including having a psychological assessment. Previous guidelines did not require psych assessment. I’ll see if I can find a link.

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

She must have stopped the testosterone supplements. It’s a lifetime thing. Once you transition, you are in the medical loop for life.

I received a petition email about providing this procedure (whose name was new to me) yesterday.

“In addition to alleviating gender dysphoria, the procedure allows trans women to stop taking testosterone-blocking medications, which may cause unwanted side effects.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchiectomy#Orchiectomy_as_a_gender_reassignment_procedure

I thought that was part of going the whole way anyway. Apparently many these days just do the medical thing so it is reversible.

>>In the last 24 months, a growing number of Westerns European countries have recognized the significant concerns with the “gender-affirmative” model of care, which became visible, in part, due to the growing voices of detransitioners and regretters coming from the novel population of gender-dysphoric youth. As of the current writing, Sweden has made the decision to no longer offers gender transition to minors outside of clinical trials. Finland has sharply restricted eligibility for gender transition to minors with a classic, early childhood-onset of gender dysphoria and no mental health comorbidities, and stated that psychotherapy should be the first line of treatment. The UK appears to be moving in a similar direction, according to the recent Interim report. The National Academy of Medicine in France has signaled a move in the same direction in their recent announcement. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists (RANZCP) issued a set of guideline calling for psychotherapy to be the first line of treatment for gender dysphoria in youth<<

From: https://segm.org/

Some new commentary in the literature.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623×.2022.2046221

“Reconsidering Informed Consent for Trans-Identified Children, Adolescents, and Young Adults”

Abstract

In less than a decade, the western world has witnessed an unprecedented rise in the numbers of children and adolescents seeking gender transition. Despite the precedent of years of gender-affirmative care, the social, medical and surgical interventions are still based on very low-quality evidence. The many risks of these interventions, including medicalizing a temporary adolescent identity, have come into a clearer focus through an awareness of detransitioners. The risks of gender-affirmative care are ethically managed through a properly conducted informed consent process. Its elements—deliberate sharing of the hoped-for benefits, known risks and long-term outcomes, and alternative treatments—must be delivered in a manner that promotes comprehension. The process is limited by: erroneous professional assumptions; poor quality of the initial evaluations; and inaccurate and incomplete information shared with patients and their parents. We discuss data on suicide and present the limitations of the Dutch studies that have been the basis for interventions. Beliefs about gender-affirmative care need to be separated from the established facts. A proper informed consent process can both prepare parents and patients for the difficult choices that they must make and can ease professionals’ ethical tensions. Even when properly accomplished, however, some clinical circumstances exist that remain quite uncertain.

buffy said:

Some new commentary in the literature.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623×.2022.2046221

“Reconsidering Informed Consent for Trans-Identified Children, Adolescents, and Young Adults”

Abstract

In less than a decade, the western world has witnessed an unprecedented rise in the numbers of children and adolescents seeking gender transition. Despite the precedent of years of gender-affirmative care, the social, medical and surgical interventions are still based on very low-quality evidence. The many risks of these interventions, including medicalizing a temporary adolescent identity, have come into a clearer focus through an awareness of detransitioners. The risks of gender-affirmative care are ethically managed through a properly conducted informed consent process. Its elements—deliberate sharing of the hoped-for benefits, known risks and long-term outcomes, and alternative treatments—must be delivered in a manner that promotes comprehension. The process is limited by: erroneous professional assumptions; poor quality of the initial evaluations; and inaccurate and incomplete information shared with patients and their parents. We discuss data on suicide and present the limitations of the Dutch studies that have been the basis for interventions. Beliefs about gender-affirmative care need to be separated from the established facts. A proper informed consent process can both prepare parents and patients for the difficult choices that they must make and can ease professionals’ ethical tensions. Even when properly accomplished, however, some clinical circumstances exist that remain quite uncertain.

When I was a kid I wanted to be a pirate but fortunately they didn’t remove an eye and a leg.

Peak Warming Man said:

buffy said:

Some new commentary in the literature.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623×.2022.2046221

“Reconsidering Informed Consent for Trans-Identified Children, Adolescents, and Young Adults”

Abstract

In less than a decade, the western world has witnessed an unprecedented rise in the numbers of children and adolescents seeking gender transition. Despite the precedent of years of gender-affirmative care, the social, medical and surgical interventions are still based on very low-quality evidence. The many risks of these interventions, including medicalizing a temporary adolescent identity, have come into a clearer focus through an awareness of detransitioners. The risks of gender-affirmative care are ethically managed through a properly conducted informed consent process. Its elements—deliberate sharing of the hoped-for benefits, known risks and long-term outcomes, and alternative treatments—must be delivered in a manner that promotes comprehension. The process is limited by: erroneous professional assumptions; poor quality of the initial evaluations; and inaccurate and incomplete information shared with patients and their parents. We discuss data on suicide and present the limitations of the Dutch studies that have been the basis for interventions. Beliefs about gender-affirmative care need to be separated from the established facts. A proper informed consent process can both prepare parents and patients for the difficult choices that they must make and can ease professionals’ ethical tensions. Even when properly accomplished, however, some clinical circumstances exist that remain quite uncertain.

When I was a kid I wanted to be a pirate but fortunately they didn’t remove an eye and a leg.

LOL

Michael V said:

Peak Warming Man said:

buffy said:

Some new commentary in the literature.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623×.2022.2046221

“Reconsidering Informed Consent for Trans-Identified Children, Adolescents, and Young Adults”

Abstract

In less than a decade, the western world has witnessed an unprecedented rise in the numbers of children and adolescents seeking gender transition. Despite the precedent of years of gender-affirmative care, the social, medical and surgical interventions are still based on very low-quality evidence. The many risks of these interventions, including medicalizing a temporary adolescent identity, have come into a clearer focus through an awareness of detransitioners. The risks of gender-affirmative care are ethically managed through a properly conducted informed consent process. Its elements—deliberate sharing of the hoped-for benefits, known risks and long-term outcomes, and alternative treatments—must be delivered in a manner that promotes comprehension. The process is limited by: erroneous professional assumptions; poor quality of the initial evaluations; and inaccurate and incomplete information shared with patients and their parents. We discuss data on suicide and present the limitations of the Dutch studies that have been the basis for interventions. Beliefs about gender-affirmative care need to be separated from the established facts. A proper informed consent process can both prepare parents and patients for the difficult choices that they must make and can ease professionals’ ethical tensions. Even when properly accomplished, however, some clinical circumstances exist that remain quite uncertain.

When I was a kid I wanted to be a pirate but fortunately they didn’t remove an eye and a leg.

LOL

Kids who want to be pirates are pretty safe.

Lumberjacks on the other hand …

The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

Peak Warming Man said:

When I was a kid I wanted to be a pirate but fortunately they didn’t remove an eye and a leg.

LOL

Kids who want to be pirates are pretty safe.

Lumberjacks on the other hand …

That’s OK