Researchers believe they can make millions of homes in Europe gas-free in the near future, after inventing a “heat battery” based on salt and water.

The team from Eindhoven University of Technology say their cheap, compact battery system is ready for real-world tests and will be a “game-changer for energy transition”.

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

It took 12 years to develop and create a battery design that could actually work at scale, with researchers saying it comes at a critical time with European countries looking to wean themselves off Russian gas following the invasion of Ukraine.

The heat source to store in the salt can be taken from industrial by-products, such as the residual “heat waste” in factories or surplus heat from data centers.

“If industrial residual heat could be used to heat homes, you have a win-win situation: homes could be made independent of gas – an even more urgent need given the dependence on Russian gas – and CO2 emissions would be reduced,” Eindhoven University of Technology said in a statement.

The system is made up of a heat exchanger, fan, evaporator/ condenser and a boiler with salt particles. Despite its simplicity, the proof-of-concept was capable of providing heating for an average family of four for two days.

Engineers have since upgraded this to a fully working protoype, around the size of a large cabinet, that could be used in the real world. With nearly 30 times the storage capacity, the system could heat a home for up to two months.

“It is not yet a product, but everything is now ready to be tested for the first time in a real-world situation,” said Olaf Adan, a professor at Eindhoven University of Technology.

“While the potential is great, we have also seen many great potential technologies that have not made it. So we’re going to keep our feet on the ground and take this one step at a time.”

A pilot is already being set up to test the technology later this year in homes in France, Poland and the Netherlands.

If successful, Professor Adan claims it could be used to wean millions of homes off gas in the near future.

“In the Netherlands we have about 150 PetaJoule of residual heat from industry per year,” he said.

“That would enable you to take almost 3.5 million homes off the gas, which is more than twice the target of the Dutch government, namely 1.5 million homes gas-free by 2030.”

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/heat-battery-invention-could-make-millions-of-homes-gas-free/ar-AAWHHxH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=ca63ad81215a4faaab8c79c1433e1f34

Over in Europe, they have a lot of what is called co-generation.

Co-generation is when waste heat from electricity generation is piped straight to blocks of houses as hot water.
In those circumstances you don’t need either gas or electricity to get your hot water.

It’s very common.

Drying salt is not so easy. Salt holds onto moisture and if the atmospheric humidity drops then the salt drags moisture out of the air.
Pure NaCl wets itself at about at about 85% relative humidity (I used to know the exact percentage), so gains and loses latent heat at the atmosphere becomes more or less humid. Sea salt contain large amounts of MgCl2, which wets itself at much lower relative humidity. And contaminates like lithium chloride at still lower relative humidity. This is known as deliquescence. So the temperature storage is sensitive to humidity.

At CSIRO I was looking at passive heating as a way of economically avoiding electric and gas heating. There were only two serious contenders. One is a type of salt that dissolves in its own water of crystallisation. The other is a chlorinated paraffin, chlorinated to be fireproof. Of the two, the paraffin could provide more heat. Both contenders involved phase changes, storing heat as latent heat. The best use I could think of was in furniture such as tables, which becomes warm at night and cool during the day. Only a few degrees of home heating were possible using either contender, about equivalent to improving house insulation.

Another related product is wool. Wool is a protein that produces heat when it gets wet, which makes it good for clothing in cold climates.

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

(Scratches head) dissolution of salt is endothermic.
This seems to be a real project but the description is batshit.

Also

Why are they saying it could be the solution for just 3 million households? If this is just a domestic heat storage option, why could it not be a solution for all households in the Netherlands?

dv said:

Also

Why are they saying it could be the solution for just 3 million households? If this is just a domestic heat storage option, why could it not be a solution for all households in the Netherlands?

Maybe it’s a scam?

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Also

Why are they saying it could be the solution for just 3 million households? If this is just a domestic heat storage option, why could it not be a solution for all households in the Netherlands?

Maybe it’s a scam?

Well, it appears the energy source is waste industrial heat and that is only enough for a finite number of households…

dv said:

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

(Scratches head) dissolution of salt is endothermic.
This seems to be a real project but the description is batshit.

TATE seems to have the answer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage#Thermo-chemical_Heat_Storage

dv said:

Also

Why are they saying it could be the solution for just 3 million households? If this is just a domestic heat storage option, why could it not be a solution for all households in the Netherlands?

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

Also

Why are they saying it could be the solution for just 3 million households? If this is just a domestic heat storage option, why could it not be a solution for all households in the Netherlands?

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

When someone claims that a system is ‘loss-free’ I do have to wonder if they have ever engineered or physiced before.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

Also

Why are they saying it could be the solution for just 3 million households? If this is just a domestic heat storage option, why could it not be a solution for all households in the Netherlands?

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

When someone claims that a system is ‘loss-free’ I do have to wonder if they have ever engineered or physiced before.

But they are talking about loss of usable energy over time, which is a big problem when it is stored as heat, but not when it is stored as chemical bonds. I don’t think they implied that usable energy out = energy in.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

When someone claims that a system is ‘loss-free’ I do have to wonder if they have ever engineered or physiced before.

But they are talking about loss of usable energy over time, which is a big problem when it is stored as heat, but not when it is stored as chemical bonds. I don’t think they implied that usable energy out = energy in.

+1

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

When someone claims that a system is ‘loss-free’ I do have to wonder if they have ever engineered or physiced before.

But they are talking about loss of usable energy over time, which is a big problem when it is stored as heat, but not when it is stored as chemical bonds. I don’t think they implied that usable energy out = energy in.

Ahh – loss free as a storage mechanism, just like coal or oil then :)

PermeateFree said:

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

Nah I read the article. It’s poorly written. I could probably rewrite it for them for a small fee.

Like take this:

“If industrial residual heat could be used to heat homes, you have a win-win situation: homes could be made independent of gas – an even more urgent need given the dependence on Russian gas – and CO2 emissions would be reduced,” Eindhoven University of Technology said in a statement.

Anyone reading this would think that they were going to use industrial head to heat homes, because that’s what they literally say.

dv said:

Like take this:

“If industrial residual heat could be used to heat homes, you have a win-win situation: homes could be made independent of gas – an even more urgent need given the dependence on Russian gas – and CO2 emissions would be reduced,” Eindhoven University of Technology said in a statement.

Anyone reading this would think that they were going to use industrial head to heat homes, because that’s what they literally say.

Ah, so that is where you went wrong. Try reading the article (and it is only an article, not a scientific paper) for the information, rather than looking for all conceivable faults.

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

Nah I read the article. It’s poorly written. I could probably rewrite it for them for a small fee.

I think you make enough mistakes of your own dv, than to think you can always do better.

dv said:

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

(Scratches head) dissolution of salt is endothermic.
This seems to be a real project but the description is batshit.

they use potassium carbonate as the salt if that makes a difference.

Boris said:

dv said:

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

(Scratches head) dissolution of salt is endothermic.
This seems to be a real project but the description is batshit.

they use potassium carbonate as the salt if that makes a difference.

https://www.tue.nl/en/news/news-overview/15-07-2020-is-our-heat-battery-really-loss-free-the-answer-is-yes/

Boris said:

dv said:

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

(Scratches head) dissolution of salt is endothermic.
This seems to be a real project but the description is batshit.

they use potassium carbonate as the salt if that makes a difference.

Yeah I gleaned by reading the other papers that they were using carbonates. Seems like this could be a good way to mske use of industrial heat but they have presented it very weirdly.

Kind of reminds me of those folks selling slightly alkaline solutions for health purposes. When you drill down, it turns out the product is actually a bit beneficial, but the marketing is all gobbledegoop and woo.

dv said:

Boris said:

dv said:

The heat battery is based on an old thermochemical principle, which is that when water is added to salt it produces heat. The reverse is also possible, whereby heat can be used to evaporate the water, thus storing the heat energy inside the salt.

(Scratches head) dissolution of salt is endothermic.
This seems to be a real project but the description is batshit.

they use potassium carbonate as the salt if that makes a difference.

Yeah I gleaned by reading the other papers that they were using carbonates. Seems like this could be a good way to mske use of industrial heat but they have presented it very weirdly.

Kind of reminds me of those folks selling slightly alkaline solutions for health purposes. When you drill down, it turns out the product is actually a bit beneficial, but the marketing is all gobbledegoop and woo.

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

Boris said:

dv said:

Boris said:

they use potassium carbonate as the salt if that makes a difference.

Yeah I gleaned by reading the other papers that they were using carbonates. Seems like this could be a good way to mske use of industrial heat but they have presented it very weirdly.

Kind of reminds me of those folks selling slightly alkaline solutions for health purposes. When you drill down, it turns out the product is actually a bit beneficial, but the marketing is all gobbledegoop and woo.

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

That’s the other thing. They are acting like they’ve invented the wheel when what they’ve done is modified the wheel to make it more useful for an enterprise setting. Which is cool I guess.

Boris said:

dv said:

Boris said:

they use potassium carbonate as the salt if that makes a difference.

Yeah I gleaned by reading the other papers that they were using carbonates. Seems like this could be a good way to mske use of industrial heat but they have presented it very weirdly.

Kind of reminds me of those folks selling slightly alkaline solutions for health purposes. When you drill down, it turns out the product is actually a bit beneficial, but the marketing is all gobbledegoop and woo.

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

Yes, but they aren’t using molten salt.

OTOH, yestreday I found a paper discussing the technique they do use (or something similar) , written in 1958.

Today it is hiding.

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

From the article:

>>Storing heat within dry salt makes the battery completely loss-free, providing an incredibly efficient way to store energy for future use. This is particularly useful when energy supply is coming from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, which tend to fluctuate significantly and therefore require gas or other sources to suplement them.

If you are going to rubbish an article, you might read it first.

Frankly I don’t give a damn for this type of information as it is of little interest to me. I only posted it here for your benefit, but it seems (as usual) I am wasting my time.

Nah I read the article. It’s poorly written. I could probably rewrite it for them for a small fee.

I think you make enough mistakes of your own dv, than to think you can always do better.

Peace, man. Thanks for bringing this article to my attention. This is a somewhat interesting development. My nitpickingnof the article is not aimed at you personally.

dv said:

Boris said:

dv said:

Yeah I gleaned by reading the other papers that they were using carbonates. Seems like this could be a good way to mske use of industrial heat but they have presented it very weirdly.

Kind of reminds me of those folks selling slightly alkaline solutions for health purposes. When you drill down, it turns out the product is actually a bit beneficial, but the marketing is all gobbledegoop and woo.

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

That’s the other thing. They are acting like they’ve invented the wheel when what they’ve done is modified the wheel to make it more useful for an enterprise setting. Which is cool I guess.

Science stands on the shoulders of others, didn’t you know that?

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

Nah I read the article. It’s poorly written. I could probably rewrite it for them for a small fee.

I think you make enough mistakes of your own dv, than to think you can always do better.

Peace, man. Thanks for bringing this article to my attention. This is a somewhat interesting development. My nitpickingnof the article is not aimed at you personally.

I don’t mind you nitpicking or even serious criticism, just do it fairly and not with the intention of discrediting the entire idea or process.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Boris said:

dv said:

Yeah I gleaned by reading the other papers that they were using carbonates. Seems like this could be a good way to mske use of industrial heat but they have presented it very weirdly.

Kind of reminds me of those folks selling slightly alkaline solutions for health purposes. When you drill down, it turns out the product is actually a bit beneficial, but the marketing is all gobbledegoop and woo.

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

Yes, but they aren’t using molten salt.

OTOH, yestreday I found a paper discussing the technique they do use (or something similar) , written in 1958.

Today it is hiding.

well, it is a similar principle just about half as hot.

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

PermeateFree said:

I think you make enough mistakes of your own dv, than to think you can always do better.

Peace, man. Thanks for bringing this article to my attention. This is a somewhat interesting development. My nitpickingnof the article is not aimed at you personally.

I don’t mind you nitpicking or even serious criticism, just do it fairly and not with the intention of discrediting the entire idea or process.

I’ll take that on board and try to be more circumspect in future

Boris said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Boris said:

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

Yes, but they aren’t using molten salt.

OTOH, yestreday I found a paper discussing the technique they do use (or something similar) , written in 1958.

Today it is hiding.

well, it is a similar principle just about half as hot.

in that salts used melt at around 130 and this works at 60. of course in the molten salt set ups the mix it heated to a far higher temp.

Boris said:

Boris said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Yes, but they aren’t using molten salt.

OTOH, yestreday I found a paper discussing the technique they do use (or something similar) , written in 1958.

Today it is hiding.

well, it is a similar principle just about half as hot.

in that salts used melt at around 130 and this works at 60. of course in the molten salt set ups the mix it heated to a far higher temp.

Perhaps I should read the article again, but I thought the point was that the energy was stored in a chemical transition,not a change of state, so it lasts indefinitely, whereas heat stored as molten salt will have a short life in a domestic sized storage unit.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Boris said:

Boris said:

well, it is a similar principle just about half as hot.

in that salts used melt at around 130 and this works at 60. of course in the molten salt set ups the mix it heated to a far higher temp.

Perhaps I should read the article again, but I thought the point was that the energy was stored in a chemical transition,not a change of state, so it lasts indefinitely, whereas heat stored as molten salt will have a short life in a domestic sized storage unit.

I thought this was the technology being discussed:

“Salt hydrate technology
One example of an experimental storage system based on chemical reaction energy is the salt hydrate technology. The system uses the reaction energy created when salts are hydrated or dehydrated. It works by storing heat in a container containing 50% sodium hydroxide (NaOH) solution. Heat (e.g. from using a solar collector) is stored by evaporating the water in an endothermic reaction. When water is added again, heat is released in an exothermic reaction at 50 °C (120 °F). Current systems operate at 60% efficiency. The system is especially advantageous for seasonal thermal energy storage, because the dried salt can be stored at room temperature for prolonged times, without energy loss. The containers with the dehydrated salt can even be transported to a different location. The system has a higher energy density than heat stored in water and the capacity of the system can be designed to store energy from a few months to years.

In 2013 the Dutch technology developer TNO presented the results of the MERITS project to store heat in a salt container. The heat, which can be derived from a solar collector on a rooftop, expels the water contained in the salt. When the water is added again, the heat is released, with almost no energy losses. A container with a few cubic meters of salt could store enough of this thermochemical energy to heat a house throughout the winter. In a temperate climate like that of the Netherlands, an average low-energy household requires about 6.7 GJ/winter. To store this energy in water (at a temperature difference of 70 °C), 23 m3 insulated water storage would be needed, exceeding the storage abilities of most households. Using salt hydrate technology with a storage density of about 1 GJ/m3, 4–8 m3 could be sufficient.

As of 2016, researchers in several countries are conducting experiments to determine the best type of salt, or salt mixture. Low pressure within the container seems favourable for the energy transport. Especially promising are organic salts, so called ionic liquids. Compared to lithium halide based sorbents they are less problematic in terms of limited global resources, and compared to most other halides and sodium hydroxide (NaOH) they are less corrosive and not negatively affected by CO2 contaminations.”

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

Boris said:

hasn’t molten salt storage been around for ages. I have 50 year old solar books that mention it.

That’s the other thing. They are acting like they’ve invented the wheel when what they’ve done is modified the wheel to make it more useful for an enterprise setting. Which is cool I guess.

Science stands on the shoulders of others, didn’t you know that?

we didn’t actually

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

dv said:

That’s the other thing. They are acting like they’ve invented the wheel when what they’ve done is modified the wheel to make it more useful for an enterprise setting. Which is cool I guess.

Science stands on the shoulders of others, didn’t you know that?

we didn’t actually

Well your mate Newton did.

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

Science stands on the shoulders of others, didn’t you know that?

we didn’t actually

Well your mate Newton did.

or Bernard of Chartres

Boris said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

we didn’t actually

Well your mate Newton did.

or Bernard of Chartres

“Bernard of Chartres used to say that we are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants , and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants.”

I’m pretty sure that Newton left out the bit about being like dwarves (except when referring to Hooke of course).