A new thread since the other one is well bloated by now.

Ukraine is preparing for a prolonged invasion.

Putin is benefitting from enhanced powers as a result of waging long term war, however evil and pointless, so will be content to keep pushing hapless Russians and anyone else he can find through the grinder.

There is much horror to come, but with enough assistance Ukraine may prevail.

The Ukrainians have successfully pushed the Russians back over the border to the North and North East of their country, and the Russians are digging in in the East and South East.

So now we’re in the new phase – basic stability with each side gaining and losing small areas. Will Russia have the manpower to hold on? Will the Ukrainians have enough hardware to make them want to go home?

Stay tuned for an extended period of probing attacks by the Russians, and rain of fire from the skies by the Ukrainians with a little covert behind-the-lines disruption to make life interesting.

https://hindustannewshub.com/russia-ukraine-news/zelensky-told-about-pilots-who-delivered-food-and-water-to-azovstal/

President Volodymyr Zelenskyi spoke about Ukrainian pilots who risked their lives to deliver food and water to the Azovstal plant in Mariupol and pick up the wounded.

This was reported by RBC-Ukraine with reference to the words of Volodymyr Zelensky on the national telethon.

“A very large number of our pilots died, unfortunately. Absolutely heroic people who knew that it was difficult to fly to Azovstal and bring them medicine, food, water, pick up the bodies of the wounded, it is almost impossible. All this happened. No one could officially comment. “, – said Zelensky.

The President said that there were no air corridors to the Azovstal plant due to the strong Russian air defense.

“Helicopter pilots for many weeks, knowing that 90% do not return… Imagine what these people did. They flew there to give them food, water, weapons and take away the wounded. We lost many pilots. They are absolutely heroic,” Zelensky said.

Dark Orange said:

https://hindustannewshub.com/russia-ukraine-news/zelensky-told-about-pilots-who-delivered-food-and-water-to-azovstal/

President Volodymyr Zelenskyi spoke about Ukrainian pilots who risked their lives to deliver food and water to the Azovstal plant in Mariupol and pick up the wounded.

This was reported by RBC-Ukraine with reference to the words of Volodymyr Zelensky on the national telethon.

“A very large number of our pilots died, unfortunately. Absolutely heroic people who knew that it was difficult to fly to Azovstal and bring them medicine, food, water, pick up the bodies of the wounded, it is almost impossible. All this happened. No one could officially comment. “, – said Zelensky.

The President said that there were no air corridors to the Azovstal plant due to the strong Russian air defense.

“Helicopter pilots for many weeks, knowing that 90% do not return… Imagine what these people did. They flew there to give them food, water, weapons and take away the wounded. We lost many pilots. They are absolutely heroic,” Zelensky said.

90%, damn

dv said:

“Helicopter pilots for many weeks, knowing that 90% do not return… Imagine what these people did. They flew there to give them food, water, weapons and take away the wounded. We lost many pilots. They are absolutely heroic,” Zelensky said.

90%, damn

Same loss rate as the U-boat crews in WW2.

I shook the hand of a (then) West German admiral once. He’d been a WW2 U-boat captain. Weird to meet someone who, by the odds, shouldn’t have made it past 1945.

And helicopter pilots are nuts, anyway.

Here’s one of them, who’s still around today:

https://www.badassoftheweek.com/crandall

That article doesn’t mention that when the medevac unit commander refused to send his helicopters back into the Ia Drang battle, Crandall pulled out his .38 revolver and was only barely restrained by others from blasting the med. unit’s commander’s nose off his face.

I loved US Army trained chopper jockeys. Professionals.

And the Ukraine helo drivers sound like they’re in the same grade.

There goes another one…

“Ukrainian troops say they destroyed Russian battalion tactical group.
The group was liquidated while attempting to cross the Siversky Donets river near the village of Serebryanka in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine’s 30th Mechanized Brigade said.”

https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainian-troops-destroy-russian-armored-unit-trying-cross-seversky-donets-river-1708628

Aerial footage showed a destroyed pontoon bridge over the river, tanks submerged in the water and countless charred military vehicles littering the desolate landscape.

Word is Russia is turning off all oil, gas and everything else to Europe at the end of September

As the nazis discovered in WW2 fighting the soviets , it’s like fighting a sponge, you push in and it gives away, take the pressure off and it grows, slowly, incrementally and overwhelmingly

I still put my money on the red army

If you can, catch up wth DW conflict zone where Tim Sebastian interviews Ekaterina Kotrikadze who is News Director and anchor for Russian Independent TV Rain.

She passionately believes that Russia needs the west to support the Russian people culture and values while continuing to sanction Putin’s position. As she believes that though Putin has managed to bring back the KGB style of suppression of the pouplace, that the majority of Russians are good people with so much to share with the west.

roughbarked said:

If you can, catch up wth DW conflict zone where Tim Sebastian interviews Ekaterina Kotrikadze who is News Director and anchor for Russian Independent TV Rain.

She passionately believes that Russia needs the west to support the Russian people culture and values while continuing to sanction Putin’s position. As she believes that though Putin has managed to bring back the KGB style of suppression of the pouplace, that the majority of Russians are good people with so much to share with the west.

the Germans ended up surviving eh

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

If you can, catch up wth DW conflict zone where Tim Sebastian interviews Ekaterina Kotrikadze who is News Director and anchor for Russian Independent TV Rain.

She passionately believes that Russia needs the west to support the Russian people culture and values while continuing to sanction Putin’s position. As she believes that though Putin has managed to bring back the KGB style of suppression of the pouplace, that the majority of Russians are good people with so much to share with the west.

the Germans ended up surviving eh

Yes. The simple answer is to get rid of PooTin and roust out the rabble who back him. The allow the Russian people to heal the shame.
Not an easy task granted. We can only hope that the real reason he’s a sicko is that he is poisoned from within by an incurable malady that takes him down before he gets any worse.

Russia has claimed to have taken prisoner nearly 2,500 Ukrainian fighters from the besieged Mariupol steel plant, and concerns are growing over their fate after a Moscow-backed separatist leader vowed they would face tribunals.
The story of Mariupol is sickening to behold.

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1099149061/ukraine-says-its-downed-200-aircraft-a-mark-of-russian-failures-in-the-sky

Reported today.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

Michael V said:

Reported today.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

They aren’t doing very well are they?

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

Was he very good at integral and differential calculus?
Did he know the scientific names of beings animalculus?
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
Was he the very model of a modern major general?

Michael V said:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

EEK!

Michael V said:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

they’re gunna changed them into condom????

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

I can’t find anything on the first page of the above source.

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

Patton and Rommel used to fly over the front lines in light aircraft.

Other generals have done similar. No substitute for seeing for yourself.

The SU-25 is a single-seat plane, so maybe he was just trying to show what a gung-ho bloke he is (maybe a necessity in Putin’s eyes these days).

But there is a two-seat Su-25UB two-seat trainer version. Someone could have been chauffering him.

Both have good armour around the crew space, and tough/redundant systems, so maybe they thought he’d be safe in a Su-25.

Bogsnorkler said:

Michael V said:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

they’re gunna changed them into condom????

Probed with a condom?

Michael V said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

I can’t find anything on the first page of the above source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_losses_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

Woodie said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

Was he very good at integral and differential calculus?
Did he know the scientific names of beings animalculus?
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
Was he the very model of a modern major general?

Maybe the more recnt version is more appropriate here:

He is the very model of a very stable genius
Of all the U.S. presidents he is the Mussoliniest
He learned a lot of things according to his Wikipedia
And demonstrates his ample intellect on social media

When people are in need he is the best at making fun of them
He knows eleven words although he can’t spell even one of them
An overly flamboyant, orange, autocratic scuzzy man
Who’s undermining everything Obama did because he can

Michael V said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

I can’t find anything on the first page of the above source.

it has a reader conjure a high ranking(high status) russian military person flying a jet in a combat situation or whatever, an anomalous proposition, a comic picture really, it encourages hostile conjecture to resolve, appeals to contempt, matters not if true or otherwise

are they short of pilots
was he a rogue pilot
was he defecting

make something up

transition said:

Michael V said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

I can’t find anything on the first page of the above source.

it has a reader conjure a high ranking(high status) russian military person flying a jet in a combat situation or whatever, an anomalous proposition, a comic picture really, it encourages hostile conjecture to resolve, appeals to contempt, matters not if true or otherwise

are they short of pilots
was he a rogue pilot
was he defecting

make something up

Lock in A, Eddie.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-23/fate-of-2500-ukrainian-pows-from-steel-plant-stirs-concern/101090448

Michael V said:

Reported today.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

That represents a fair sized army on its own. Sounds like a hemorrhaging Russia.

PermeateFree said:

Michael V said:

Reported today.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

That represents a fair sized army on its own. Sounds like a hemorrhaging Russia.

Things like 1,200 tanks are nothing to Russia’s reserve inventory. They have many, many times that sitting around (although how many are ready to immediately run, well….)

The worse problem is the losses of trained and experienced crews for tanks, ships, helicopters, aircraft.

You can just put any four soldiers in a T-72 or T-90, but do they know how to use it? How long with they last? A live battlefield is no place for ‘L’ plates. You can’t just take a kid out of a prop-driven Yak trainer and seat him in an Su-35 and expect him to survive, let alone do well.

If they’re lucky, they’ll live. The longer they live, the more they learn, the better their chances.

But for every survivor, there’ll be ten or more dead learners.

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

Michael V said:

Reported today.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

That represents a fair sized army on its own. Sounds like a hemorrhaging Russia.

Things like 1,200 tanks are nothing to Russia’s reserve inventory. They have many, many times that sitting around (although how many are ready to immediately run, well….)

The worse problem is the losses of trained and experienced crews for tanks, ships, helicopters, aircraft.

You can just put any four soldiers in a T-72 or T-90, but do they know how to use it? How long with they last? A live battlefield is no place for ‘L’ plates. You can’t just take a kid out of a prop-driven Yak trainer and seat him in an Su-35 and expect him to survive, let alone do well.

If they’re lucky, they’ll live. The longer they live, the more they learn, the better their chances.

But for every survivor, there’ll be ten or more dead learners.

Even though the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage, the problem is that they are mostly obsolete Soviet-era spec models. Their tank fleet at the start of the war contained many older model tanks that had been refurbished and given newer optics, computers, ERA, defensive counter-measures etc. Which made them much improved than the older models. But they have never gotten around to modernising their whole fleet of course. Losing the moderised versions and replacing them with long obsolete older models is going to be a significant downgrade in combat effectiveness.

party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

That represents a fair sized army on its own. Sounds like a hemorrhaging Russia.

Things like 1,200 tanks are nothing to Russia’s reserve inventory. They have many, many times that sitting around (although how many are ready to immediately run, well….)

The worse problem is the losses of trained and experienced crews for tanks, ships, helicopters, aircraft.

You can just put any four soldiers in a T-72 or T-90, but do they know how to use it? How long with they last? A live battlefield is no place for ‘L’ plates. You can’t just take a kid out of a prop-driven Yak trainer and seat him in an Su-35 and expect him to survive, let alone do well.

If they’re lucky, they’ll live. The longer they live, the more they learn, the better their chances.

But for every survivor, there’ll be ten or more dead learners.

Even though the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage, the problem is that they are mostly obsolete Soviet-era spec models. Their tank fleet at the start of the war contained many older model tanks that had been refurbished and given newer optics, computers, ERA, defensive counter-measures etc. Which made them much improved than the older models. But they have never gotten around to modernising their whole fleet of course. Losing the moderised versions and replacing them with long obsolete older models is going to be a significant downgrade in combat effectiveness.

Something I noted early on was how the tracks on the majority of the Russian tanks were quite narrow. It seems to me that the narrowness would increase the risk of them bogging in soft ground.

I wondered why they were so narrow.

party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

That represents a fair sized army on its own. Sounds like a hemorrhaging Russia.

Things like 1,200 tanks are nothing to Russia’s reserve inventory. They have many, many times that sitting around (although how many are ready to immediately run, well….)

The worse problem is the losses of trained and experienced crews for tanks, ships, helicopters, aircraft.

You can just put any four soldiers in a T-72 or T-90, but do they know how to use it? How long with they last? A live battlefield is no place for ‘L’ plates. You can’t just take a kid out of a prop-driven Yak trainer and seat him in an Su-35 and expect him to survive, let alone do well.

If they’re lucky, they’ll live. The longer they live, the more they learn, the better their chances.

But for every survivor, there’ll be ten or more dead learners.

Even though the Russians have thousands of tanks in storage, the problem is that they are mostly obsolete Soviet-era spec models. Their tank fleet at the start of the war contained many older model tanks that had been refurbished and given newer optics, computers, ERA, defensive counter-measures etc. Which made them much improved than the older models. But they have never gotten around to modernising their whole fleet of course. Losing the moderised versions and replacing them with long obsolete older models is going to be a significant downgrade in combat effectiveness.

I think Russia has become too complacent over the years, having had their confidence massaged by their size and their nuclear arsenal. Indeed other nations thought they were a far better oiled military just waiting to leap into action, but instead there is much standing on their laurels and not much effort placed in keeping pace with a modernising world. Russia appears to be little more than a threat of nuclear obliteration when nobody wins.

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

captain_spalding said:

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

They don’t have those numbers these days. Even amongst the fodder they can theoretically put together, the reluctance and resistance will continually grow as the losses pile up.

captain_spalding said:

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

Their troops seem to be little more than canon fodder.

Bubblecar said:

captain_spalding said:

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

They don’t have those numbers these days. Even amongst the fodder they can theoretically put together, the reluctance and resistance will continually grow as the losses pile up.

That’s why they had the NKVD machine gun crews behind the advancing Russian soldiery in WW2 – to deal with such ‘reluctance’.

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

Their troops seem to be little more than canon fodder.

They’ve never been seen as anything else.

captain_spalding said:

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

I think that sort of numbers game is going to be less and less likely to win the day as military technology gets more and more advanced. Ukraine are going to have a pretty steady resupply chain from the West, backed by some kind of Lend-Lease 2.0. As long as NATO don’t run out of Javelins, NLAWS, Stingers, M777s and drones.

Bubblecar said:

captain_spalding said:

Don’t forget that the over-arching military philosophy of Russia, reaching right back through the Soviet years to Tsarist times is that, whatever the force is made up of, they need not be the best-equipped, best-trained, best-motivated – just as long as there’s vast multitudes of them.

If the enemy has 1,000 bullets, you send 1,001 Russian soldiers to attack him. Just as there’s always space into which you can retreat, there’s always men and equipment to feed into the battle.

Modernising is all very well, to a certain extent, in the Russian view, but it’s numbers that they rely on in the end.

They don’t have those numbers these days. Even amongst the fodder they can theoretically put together, the reluctance and resistance will continually grow as the losses pile up.

And remember, they’re not actually “defending the fatherland” as must be apparent even to the most brainwashed.

They’re invading a neighbouring country for the sake of an old madman’s ego.

Bubblecar said:

They’re invading a neighbouring country for the sake of an old madman’s ego.

The last time an army did so for that reason, they made it to the Dneiper River.

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

Peak Warming Man said:

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

You can’t loot and pillage from long range, which seems like half the fun of being in a war for the Russian troops.

Peak Warming Man said:

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

Well they’re still losing heaps of troops and tanks, so I don’t think that’s quite accurate.

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

Well they’re still losing heaps of troops and tanks, so I don’t think that’s quite accurate.

Ukraine is far more imaginative than Russia too.

Ukraine using E-BIKES bicycles to crush Russian attacking tank convoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrsMVGqKKmM&ab_channel=Trendingnews

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

Well they’re still losing heaps of troops and tanks, so I don’t think that’s quite accurate.

Ukraine is far more imaginative than Russia too.

Ukraine using E-BIKES bicycles to crush Russian attacking tank convoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrsMVGqKKmM&ab_channel=Trendingnews

Interesting. Ta.

Peak Warming Man said:

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

too many eyes in the sky

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

I think the Russians have learnt their lesson and are no longer using troops and tanks, instead they are using massed long range artillery and stand off missiles.

Well they’re still losing heaps of troops and tanks, so I don’t think that’s quite accurate.

They try to cross a river, and two days or artillery wipes out a BTG. They try it again with the same result. And they even try a third time without success.

I think the only reason they’d be no longer using tanks and troops is because they have none left.

The blockade of Ukraine’s ports is worsening world hunger
But there are few good options to get Ukrainian grain to global markets

May 18th 2022 (Updated May 23rd 2022) | ODESSA

The fiasco of the Gallipoli campaign of 1915 was caused, in part, by a global food crisis. The Ottoman empire’s entry into the first world war, on Germany’s side, blocked grain exports from the Russian empire, which then encompassed Ukraine. By forcing open the passage between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, Britain and its allies hoped to knock the Turks out of the war and restore Russian trade. That would help lower soaring food prices, and strengthen Russia’s weak finances. But the landings in the Dardanelles turned to disaster and the allies withdrew after a year.

A century on, the West faces a similar conundrum: how to get Ukraine’s vast food crop past Russia’s blockade to relieve global food shortages. Andrey Stavnitser, the owner of Ukraine’s largest private shipping-terminal operator, tis, says that Ukrainian grain silos are largely full, and there is not enough room for this year’s crop. “If we can’t store it, it will start rotting,” he says. Frustratingly, Russia is able to export its grain, including crops stolen from occupied land, from the Black Sea while Ukraine’s is shut in. “Unblocking Odessa is as important as providing weapons to Ukraine,” he says.

The eu is seeking to expand alternative routes by rail and road. But these can take only a fraction of Ukraine’s exports. If the bulk of Ukraine’s grain is to get out, it must be by sea. But how? Some people are now exploring the idea of naval convoys to escort merchant vessels in and out of Odessa and nearby ports. Mr Stavnitser hopes for a un convoy led by Turkey. James Stavridis, nato’s former supreme allied commander, has suggested taking a leaf out of the operation by America and some allies to protect oil tankers in the Persian Gulf during the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s.

But James Foggo, the ex-commander of nato forces in the Mediterranean, argues the parallel is misleading. “The difference is: Iran was not a nuclear power. Russia is a nuclear power. Russia is a major power and there is a risk of escalation.” The tanker war was fraught; America’s warships were struck by Iraq and Iran and one of them mistakenly shot down an Iranian airliner.

Convoys in the Black Sea face military, legal and political constraints. Begin with Russia’s “anti-navy”—the thicket of anti-aircraft, anti-shipping and electronic-warfare systems based in Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014. This allows it to dominate much of the Black Sea from the land. And despite the sinking of the Moskva, Russia’s flagship in the Black Sea, its naval forces remain powerful—including ships and submarines armed with Kalibr cruise missiles. Even if Russia shrinks from attacking convoys, says Michael Petersen of the us Naval War College, ships in port will be sitting ducks. Odessa is within range of Russia’s Bastion-b anti-ship cruise missiles in Crimea, he notes.

Ukraine has heavily mined its waters to prevent a Russian amphibious assault. Odessa’s beaches are closed and guarded by soldiers in camouflaged outposts. The port, including its famous Potemkin Stairs, is off-limits. Russia has laid mines, too. About 80 foreign ships are now stuck in Ukrainian waters; some have been sunk.

“Mining is easy; de-mining is complicated,” notes a Western diplomat. Ukraine lacks the capacity to clear the necessary sea-lanes. Moreover, says another diplomat, “If things are de-mined for the purposes of letting the wheat out, but then Russians are allowed to sneak in and attack Odessa, that’s a problem.” As the Russian advance falters, however, President Volodymyr Zelensky has told visiting American congressmen that arming Ukraine with more anti-ship missiles could allow de-mining to start.

Protecting convoys might require a substantial nato naval presence. This raises questions related to the Montreux Convention of 1936, which regulates shipping in the Turkish straits. Turkey has invoked Article 19, in effect barring passage to the navies of belligerent states—a move that affects Russia more than others. Turkey has informally told other countries not to deploy warships in the Black Sea. It could take such measures formally under Article 21 if it felt “threatened with imminent danger of war”.

The convention anyhow limits war vessels from non-littoral states, and how long they can stay in the Black Sea. A nato operation would thus require the frequent rotation of ships. Turkey is a nato member and faces no such limits. But its dealings with Russia are ambiguous: it has sold Ukraine the much-celebrated Bayraktar tb-2 combat drone, but has also declined to impose sanctions on Russia and has allowed oligarchs’ superyachts to shelter in its waters.

The debate over convoys has echoes of the earlier one over imposing a no-fly zone over western Ukraine: are nato allies ready to risk a direct fight with Russia? President Joe Biden said no to a no-fly zone. That would risk “World War III”, he said. Without American backing, it is hard to imagine others confronting Russia.

The faint hope is that international pressure, particularly from non-Western countries, may persuade Russia to relent. Some in the un think—or hope—that Vladimir Putin, its president, will not want to be accused of causing global hunger. António Guterres, the un secretary-general, has suggested a deal whereby Russia would allow food shipments out of Odessa in exchange for easing of sanctions on fertiliser exports from Belarus and Russia.

Many officials think Mr Putin is, if anything, even more determined to crush Ukraine economically given his failure to conquer it militarily. Western diplomats say reopening Ukrainian ports is not a practical option for at least six months. A Ukrainian one is blunter: “There is no point in escorting merchant ships if nobody is prepared to shoot back at Russia. The only answer is for us to defeat Russia.”

America, which currently holds the presidency of the un Security Council, is pushing for action on improving food security generally. The effort is intended in part to prove to fence-sitting countries that the war in Ukraine, and the economic disruption it is causing, should be blamed on Russia, not the West.

Western countries may yet put forward a motion calling for the reopening of Odessa, if only to force Russia to use its veto. The un General Assembly, which includes all members, requires any country casting a veto to explain itself before the assembly within ten days. Russia may not care, says Richard Gowan of the International Crisis Group, a think-tank. “In some ways the greatest risk is that Russia says yes to reopening Odessa but then creates all manner of procedural obstacles.”

https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/05/18/how-to-unblock-ukraines-ports-to-relieve-world-hunger?

Andrey Kortunov offers three scenarios for the end of the war in Ukraine
The Russian political scientist sees it as a clash between societies as well as armies

May 20th 2022

The military confrontation between Russia and Ukraine is not an ethnic conflict: ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians are fighting on both sides of the frontline. And radical nationalism is not the main motivation for Ukrainian resistance—contrary to many of Moscow’s statements. Neither is it a fight about religion. Both Russia and Ukraine are essentially secular states, and the recent religious renaissance in the two countries is superficial. Nor is the fight mostly about territory, in my view (though related disputes remain a formidable obstacle to reaching a peace settlement).

The conflict concerns a clash between very different ways of organising social and political life within two countries which together once constituted a large portion of Soviet territory. It is also an intellectual and spiritual confrontation between two mindsets: two views on the modern international system and on the world at large; two opposing perceptions of what is right and what is wrong, what is fair and what is not, what is legitimate and what is illegitimate and of what national leadership should entail.

It would be hard to argue that Ukraine has already emerged as a model of Western-style liberal democracy. But the country is persistently moving in this direction—slowly, inconsistently and with understandable setbacks and inevitable procrastination. Russia, in turn, is not a classical Asian or European authoritarian state, but it has been drifting away from the liberal democratic model for at least the past 20 years. Ukrainian society generally is organised from the bottom up, while Russian society has a top-down process at its core. Since independence in 1991, for example, Ukraine has elected six presidents. Each won power after highly contested (and sometimes very dramatic) elections. In the same period Russia has been ruled by only three heads of state. Each new leader was carefully selected and supported by his predecessor.

Historians, cultural anthropologists and sociologists debate the reasons for this remarkable divergence. The most important thing, however, is that this fundamental incompatibility of the two models of social organisation has led not only to a horrendous fratricidal military confrontation in the very centre of Europe, but that it will also dictate how each side acts in the conflict. From personnel to propaganda and from strategy to statecraft, the two competing post-Soviet models are being put to the test. The outcome will have repercussions that go far beyond Europe.

In Kyiv they can argue that the terms of the encounter are not fair. Russia is bigger, wealthier and militarily more powerful than Ukraine is. On the other hand, Ukraine enjoys international sympathy and almost unlimited defensive, economic, humanitarian and intelligence assistance from the West. Russia can rely only on itself and is exposed to the pressure of increasingly painful sanctions.

Many Russian experts are used to saying that the massive Western military and other support is the only reason why Ukraine has not yet crumbled or surrendered. But this narrative does not explain the sources of Ukraine’s motivation. Consider Afghanistan, where all the long-term large-scale military support from America and its partners did not prevent the Taliban’s unstoppable offensive last year. Though the two conflicts cannot be compared directly, the reality on the ground seems clear: whereas Afghans in 2021 were no longer motivated to fight for their country and for their values, Ukrainians in 2022 clearly are.

The stakes in the conflict could hardly be higher. It is about the future of the international system and about the future of the world order. Most important, it is about our understanding of modernity itself and, consequently, about our preferred models of social and political development.

There are three scenarios for how the war ends, and each would have enormous geopolitical consequences. If the Kremlin were to lose decisively in this epic standoff, we would probably see a re-emergence of the unipolar moment—the remaining opposition to this arrangement by Beijing notwithstanding. Although Ukraine might be unfinished business for Mr Putin, Russia’s status is itself unfinished business for many in the West. Triumph for Ukraine might lead to a tamed and domesticated Russia. A quiet Russia would allow the West to cope more easily with China, which would be the only major obstacle to liberal hegemony and the long-awaited “end of history”.

If the conflict results with an imperfect but mutually acceptable settlement, the final outcome of the collision between the Russian and the Ukrainian models will be postponed. Fierce competition between the two models of social organisation will continue, but, I hope, in a less brutal mode. A less-than-perfect compromise between the West and Russia might be followed by a more important, and more fundamental, compromise between the West and China. If a deal with Mr Putin is possible, a deal with Xi Jinping would be a logical continuation. A rapprochement between China and the West would require more time, energy and political flexibility from the West, however. That would lead to a reformation of the global order, with major changes to the un system, archaic norms of international public law and recalibrations at the imf, the wto and other bodies.

If there is no agreement on Ukraine and the conflict endures through cycles of shaky ceasefires followed by new rounds of escalation, expect decay in global and regional bodies. Inefficient international institutions may collapse amid an accelerating arms race, nuclear proliferation and the multiplication of regional conflicts. Such change would lead only to more chaos in the years ahead.

Assessing the probability of any of the three scenarios is extremely difficult—too many independent variables could influence the outcome of the conflict. I consider the reformation scenario, in which an agreement is made to end the war, to be the best option for all. The others either will introduce change too quickly or block badly-needed change; in both cases political risks will multiply. If the conflict triggers a gradual, orderly and non-violent transition in which the global order becomes more stable, it would mean that humankind has not let Ukraine’s sacrifices go to waste.

https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2022/05/20/andrey-kortunov-offers-three-scenarios-for-the-end-of-the-war-in-ukraine?

transition said:

Michael V said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

I can’t find anything on the first page of the above source.

it has a reader conjure a high ranking(high status) russian military person flying a jet in a combat situation or whatever, an anomalous proposition, a comic picture really, it encourages hostile conjecture to resolve, appeals to contempt, matters not if true or otherwise

are they short of pilots
was he a rogue pilot
was he defecting

make something up

Has hit the main news – Kanamat Khuseevich Botashev was the Major General of the Air Force before he retired a decade ago. The fact he was no longer an official member of the armed forces suggests he was flying for the Wagner Group as a mercenary.

He appears to have been taken out by a Stinger as he was performing ground attacks around Poposna.

Dark Orange said:

transition said:

Michael V said:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

I can’t find anything on the first page of the above source.

it has a reader conjure a high ranking(high status) russian military person flying a jet in a combat situation or whatever, an anomalous proposition, a comic picture really, it encourages hostile conjecture to resolve, appeals to contempt, matters not if true or otherwise

are they short of pilots
was he a rogue pilot
was he defecting

make something up

Has hit the main news – Kanamat Khuseevich Botashev was the Major General of the Air Force before he retired a decade ago. The fact he was no longer an official member of the armed forces suggests he was flying for the Wagner Group as a mercenary.

He appears to have been taken out by a Stinger as he was performing ground attacks around Poposna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zJq8AZhryk

roughbarked said:

Dark Orange said:

transition said:

it has a reader conjure a high ranking(high status) russian military person flying a jet in a combat situation or whatever, an anomalous proposition, a comic picture really, it encourages hostile conjecture to resolve, appeals to contempt, matters not if true or otherwise

are they short of pilots
was he a rogue pilot
was he defecting

make something up

Has hit the main news – Kanamat Khuseevich Botashev was the Major General of the Air Force before he retired a decade ago. The fact he was no longer an official member of the armed forces suggests he was flying for the Wagner Group as a mercenary.

He appears to have been taken out by a Stinger as he was performing ground attacks around Poposna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zJq8AZhryk

That video looks to be just a rehash of this article:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-paratroopers-have-probably-neutralized-the-infamous-russian-aviation-general/

Dark Orange said:

roughbarked said:

Dark Orange said:

Has hit the main news – Kanamat Khuseevich Botashev was the Major General of the Air Force before he retired a decade ago. The fact he was no longer an official member of the armed forces suggests he was flying for the Wagner Group as a mercenary.

He appears to have been taken out by a Stinger as he was performing ground attacks around Poposna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zJq8AZhryk

That video looks to be just a rehash of this article:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-paratroopers-have-probably-neutralized-the-infamous-russian-aviation-general/

imagine media outlets buying each others’ stories

SCIENCE said:

Dark Orange said:

roughbarked said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zJq8AZhryk

That video looks to be just a rehash of this article:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-paratroopers-have-probably-neutralized-the-infamous-russian-aviation-general/

imagine media outlets buying each others’ stories

Or opportunists just turning a news story into a youtube video for the $$$. Usually just an artificial voice reading the script over stock footage.

Dark Orange said:

SCIENCE said:

Dark Orange said:

That video looks to be just a rehash of this article:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-paratroopers-have-probably-neutralized-the-infamous-russian-aviation-general/

imagine media outlets buying each others’ stories

Or opportunists just turning a news story into a youtube video for the $$$. Usually just an artificial voice reading the script over stock footage.

ugh

at the very least surely they could deepfake someone entertaining for it

disclaimer, we haven’t watched too many of these script farmbots

SCIENCE said:

Dark Orange said:

SCIENCE said:

imagine media outlets buying each others’ stories

Or opportunists just turning a news story into a youtube video for the $$$. Usually just an artificial voice reading the script over stock footage.

ugh

at the very least surely they could deepfake someone entertaining for it

disclaimer, we haven’t watched too many of these script farmbots

I usually last about 20 seconds. In fact, I’d found the video Roughie linked to, but realised it was just a rehash of the article so I ignored it.

roughbarked said:

Has hit the main news – Kanamat Khuseevich Botashev was the Major General of the Air Force before he retired a decade ago. The fact he was no longer an official member of the armed forces suggests he was flying for the Wagner Group as a mercenary.

He appears to have been taken out by a Stinger as he was performing ground attacks around Poposna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zJq8AZhryk

Military uniforms are pretty much all absurd when you think about it, but those Russian hats are in a laugh-category of their own.

Dark Orange said:

Or opportunists just turning a news story into a youtube video for the $$$. Usually just an artificial voice reading the script over stock footage.

There’s a lot of them. They don’t attribute the origin of the article they are reading, and often they are weeks or months out of date. Sometimes even years – I recall watching one a while back that was quoting “Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull”.

Putin forces Ukraine to shut coal mines in a bid to save the world.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61523010

Peak Warming Man said:

Putin forces Ukraine to shut coal mines in a bid to save the world.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61523010

now we’re talking

Good one Elon.

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

God he’s a flog.

sibeen said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

God he’s a flog.

371,501 ❤️ to Sibeen.

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

Yup, Starlink seems to be a major factor in the success of the Ukeranian defence.

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

Yup, Starlink seems to be a major factor in the success of the Ukeranian defence.

Although I’m not normally a fan, thumbs up to Elton for his assistance.

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

Yup, Starlink seems to be a major factor in the success of the Ukeranian defence.

It may well be, but Musk made a big deal about a donation of starling to the Uks. Utter bullshit – he actually charged over the odds for equipment that has been superceeded.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/08/us-quietly-paying-millions-send-starlink-terminals-ukraine-contrary-spacexs-claims/

Bubblecar said:

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

Yup, Starlink seems to be a major factor in the success of the Ukeranian defence.

Although I’m not normally a fan, thumbs up to Elton for his assistance.

Assistance – ROFL.

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

Dark Orange said:

Yup, Starlink seems to be a major factor in the success of the Ukeranian defence.

Although I’m not normally a fan, thumbs up to Elton for his assistance.

Assistance – ROFL.

Thumbs up for his useful overcharged services, then.

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

They are. Starlink is open and free to use in Ukraine. Musk did this early in the invasion. I don’t know whether the Russians are using it too, though.

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good one Elon.

I read an article earlier, that the Ukraine military have a system they describe as “Uber for Artillery” which combines target information from drones, soldiers in the field, spies, spotters and so on, and matches targets with the available resources in the area that can attack the target. Seems to have been quite effective and it works in real time – less than a minute between target request being sent and rounds being fired. This is apparently the secret weapon behind their successful blowing up of the Russian troops trying to cross the river by pontoon bridge last week.

It relies upon a mobile internet connection of course. The word is they are using Elon’s Starlink as the main communications network for this system.

If true, Elon is actually having a big impact on Ukraine’s chances of repelling the Russian attacks.

They are. Starlink is open and free to use in Ukraine. Musk did this early in the invasion. I don’t know whether the Russians are using it too, though.

I imagine it’d be turned-off for the Russians.

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

It’s like raaaiaaaannnn….

Major General Kanamat Botashev gave a quote to RT before climbing into his Su-25, “You guys are a bunch of cowards, I’ll show you it is perfectly safe to fly over Ukraine, so no more excuses after I get back.”

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

It’s like raaaiaaaannnn….

Major General Kanamat Botashev gave a quote to RT before climbing into his Su-25, “You guys are a bunch of cowards, I’ll show you it is perfectly safe to fly over Ukraine, so no more excuses after I get back.”

oops… just found out the source is a satire website. As you were.

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

It’s like raaaiaaaannnn….

Major General Kanamat Botashev gave a quote to RT before climbing into his Su-25, “You guys are a bunch of cowards, I’ll show you it is perfectly safe to fly over Ukraine, so no more excuses after I get back.”

oops… just found out the source is a satire website. As you were.

If he was shot down in a Su-25, he might well have been on a ‘show-‘em-how-it’s-done’ jaunt. Could be the sort of thing you have to do these days to keep your job, with Putin dismissing and arresting senior officers.

captain_spalding said:

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

oops… just found out the source is a satire website. As you were.

If he was shot down in a Su-25, he might well have been on a ‘show-‘em-how-it’s-done’ jaunt. Could be the sort of thing you have to do these days to keep your job, with Putin dismissing and arresting senior officers.

He was not an active serving member of the armed forces, he was long retired and working for the Wagner group.

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

Have read a claim (unable to find the source) that the Ukrainians have shot down an SU-25 piloted by a Major General.

If this is true, then that raises a lot of questions, primarily WTF was a major General doing flying an SU-25 in combat in the first place?

It’s like raaaiaaaannnn….

Major General Kanamat Botashev gave a quote to RT before climbing into his Su-25, “You guys are a bunch of cowards, I’ll show you it is perfectly safe to fly over Ukraine, so no more excuses after I get back.”

oops… just found out the source is a satire website. As you were.

certainly has a comic feel about it, what it inclines

Dark Orange said:

captain_spalding said:

Dark Orange said:

oops… just found out the source is a satire website. As you were.

If he was shot down in a Su-25, he might well have been on a ‘show-‘em-how-it’s-done’ jaunt. Could be the sort of thing you have to do these days to keep your job, with Putin dismissing and arresting senior officers.

He was not an active serving member of the armed forces, he was long retired and working for the Wagner group.

My ancestors were Irish mercenaries.

Rule 1 is: don’t get killed. You’re doing this for money, and there’s nowhere to spend it in a coffin.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/exclusive-details-of-ukraines-daring-helicopter-missions-into-russian-occupied-mariupol

New details are coming to light about incredibly daring resupply missions that were flown by Ukrainian helicopter crews right into the heart of the fighting in the occupied seaport city of Mariupol. Flying two at a time and once four at a time, Ukrainian Mi-8 Hip helicopter crews braved dense Russian air defense and enemy aircraft concentrated in and around Mariupol to deliver desperately needed supplies and fresh troops to the defenders of the besieged Azovstal steel plant.

Of the 16 total helicopters involved, two were destroyed, Ukraine Brig. Gen. Kyrylo Budanov, the head of Defense Intelligence of Ukraine, told The War Zone in an exclusive series of interviews. Another helicopter was destroyed coming to the rescue of one of the downed Hips.

“The special operation was planned and performed by Defense Intelligence of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine,” said Budanov, offering previously unreported details of those dangerous missions.

For nearly three months, Ukrainian forces dug into the sprawling steel plant, surrounded and under constant bombarded by Russian forces. But as their stocks of food, water, medical supplies and ammunition ran short, and the number of critically wounded increased, so too did the desperation of the pleas for help.

There were seven missions in total, said Budanov, speaking through an interpreter. He did not offer specifics about when they took place.

More shiny toys for the Ukes which will allow them to lob ordinance onto Mariupol from Kyiv.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

The Biden administration is preparing to step up the kind of weaponry it is offering Ukraine by sending advanced, long-range rocket systems that are now the top request from Ukrainian officials, multiple officials say.

The administration is leaning toward sending the systems as part of a larger package of military and security assistance to Ukraine, which could be announced as soon as next week.
Senior Ukrainian officials, including President Volodymyr Zelensky, have pleaded in recent weeks for the US and its allies to provide the Multiple Launch Rocket System, or MLRS. The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.
Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.
Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

Dark Orange said:

More shiny toys for the Ukes which will allow them to lob ordinance onto Mariupol from Kyiv.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

The Biden administration is preparing to step up the kind of weaponry it is offering Ukraine by sending advanced, long-range rocket systems that are now the top request from Ukrainian officials, multiple officials say.

The administration is leaning toward sending the systems as part of a larger package of military and security assistance to Ukraine, which could be announced as soon as next week.
Senior Ukrainian officials, including President Volodymyr Zelensky, have pleaded in recent weeks for the US and its allies to provide the Multiple Launch Rocket System, or MLRS. The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.
Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.
Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

Edit: I got my KMs and my Miles mixed up – ignore my comment.

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

More shiny toys for the Ukes which will allow them to lob ordinance onto Mariupol from Kyiv.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

The Biden administration is preparing to step up the kind of weaponry it is offering Ukraine by sending advanced, long-range rocket systems that are now the top request from Ukrainian officials, multiple officials say.

The administration is leaning toward sending the systems as part of a larger package of military and security assistance to Ukraine, which could be announced as soon as next week.
Senior Ukrainian officials, including President Volodymyr Zelensky, have pleaded in recent weeks for the US and its allies to provide the Multiple Launch Rocket System, or MLRS. The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.
Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.
Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

Edit: I got my KMs and my Miles mixed up – ignore my comment.

Also, they are km not KM

Tamb said:

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

More shiny toys for the Ukes which will allow them to lob ordinance onto Mariupol from Kyiv.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

The Biden administration is preparing to step up the kind of weaponry it is offering Ukraine by sending advanced, long-range rocket systems that are now the top request from Ukrainian officials, multiple officials say.

The administration is leaning toward sending the systems as part of a larger package of military and security assistance to Ukraine, which could be announced as soon as next week.
Senior Ukrainian officials, including President Volodymyr Zelensky, have pleaded in recent weeks for the US and its allies to provide the Multiple Launch Rocket System, or MLRS. The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.
Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.
Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

Edit: I got my KMs and my Miles mixed up – ignore my comment.

Also, they are km not KM

Yes. You are correct.

Dark Orange said:

More shiny toys for the Ukes which will allow them to lob ordinance onto Mariupol from Kyiv.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/us-long-range-rockets-ukraine-mlrs/index.html

The Biden administration is preparing to step up the kind of weaponry it is offering Ukraine by sending advanced, long-range rocket systems that are now the top request from Ukrainian officials, multiple officials say.

The administration is leaning toward sending the systems as part of a larger package of military and security assistance to Ukraine, which could be announced as soon as next week.
Senior Ukrainian officials, including President Volodymyr Zelensky, have pleaded in recent weeks for the US and its allies to provide the Multiple Launch Rocket System, or MLRS. The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.
Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.
Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

Introduction of these sorts of weapon systems would be a significant escalation from the US’s standpoint.. I can only image they are very carefully weighing their options.

diddly-squat said:

Introduction of these sorts of weapon systems would be a significant escalation from the US’s standpoint.. I can only image they are very carefully weighing their options.

It would provide Ukraine with a powerful deterrent.

There’s no doubt that a lot of the longer-range Russian missiles are being launched from over the border, in Russia. Right now, they can sit there knowing that it’s hard for Ukraine to reach them.

With equivalent weapons, sited out of reach of Russian tactical forces in Ukraine, Ukraine would be in a position to say to Russia ‘if you don’t want our rockets targetting your missile launchers inside Russia, then just fucking cut it out’.

captain_spalding said:

diddly-squat said:

Introduction of these sorts of weapon systems would be a significant escalation from the US’s standpoint.. I can only image they are very carefully weighing their options.

It would provide Ukraine with a powerful deterrent.

There’s no doubt that a lot of the longer-range Russian missiles are being launched from over the border, in Russia. Right now, they can sit there knowing that it’s hard for Ukraine to reach them.

With equivalent weapons, sited out of reach of Russian tactical forces in Ukraine, Ukraine would be in a position to say to Russia ‘if you don’t want our rockets targetting your missile launchers inside Russia, then just fucking cut it out’.

that’s exactly my point.. you can’t really put the genie back in the bottle and handing these sorts of systems over to Ukraine essentially gives them the ability to target locations in Russian territory and as such creates a larger strategic threat. I can only image it’s not an easy square to circle for the US…

captain_spalding said:

diddly-squat said:

Introduction of these sorts of weapon systems would be a significant escalation from the US’s standpoint.. I can only image they are very carefully weighing their options.

It would provide Ukraine with a powerful deterrent.

There’s no doubt that a lot of the longer-range Russian missiles are being launched from over the border, in Russia. Right now, they can sit there knowing that it’s hard for Ukraine to reach them.

With equivalent weapons, sited out of reach of Russian tactical forces in Ukraine, Ukraine would be in a position to say to Russia ‘if you don’t want our rockets targetting your missile launchers inside Russia, then just fucking cut it out’.

Discussion on another forum about the effectiveness of these.
The long range missiles will be easily lobbed onto Sevastopol harbour from Odesa, and the short range missiles can obliterate an area of ground the size of a football field from a couple of dozen kilometers away.

This is serious gear, and there is speculation that if the long range versions are supplied, the US will want to have a say in the targets selected.

Dark Orange said:

captain_spalding said:

diddly-squat said:

Introduction of these sorts of weapon systems would be a significant escalation from the US’s standpoint.. I can only image they are very carefully weighing their options.

It would provide Ukraine with a powerful deterrent.

There’s no doubt that a lot of the longer-range Russian missiles are being launched from over the border, in Russia. Right now, they can sit there knowing that it’s hard for Ukraine to reach them.

With equivalent weapons, sited out of reach of Russian tactical forces in Ukraine, Ukraine would be in a position to say to Russia ‘if you don’t want our rockets targetting your missile launchers inside Russia, then just fucking cut it out’.

Discussion on another forum about the effectiveness of these.
The long range missiles will be easily lobbed onto Sevastopol harbour from Odesa, and the short range missiles can obliterate an area of ground the size of a football field from a couple of dozen kilometers away.

This is serious gear, and there is speculation that if the long range versions are supplied, the US will want to have a say in the targets selected.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/what-himars-rocket-systems-can-and-cant-do-for-ukraine

Wow , nice to see there’s literally pounds of copium being snorted here.

Newsflash : the russians are winning, they have lost few men all things considered. The Poles figure they are going to have a crack taking back Lviv ( good luck with that).

The ghost of kiev is still valiantly flying the skies

Slow , incremental, overwhelming

I still put my money on the red army.

https://youtu.be/oET1WaG5sFk

Here’s hitlers real voice, he complains about the war, how no one realised the russians had 35,000 tanks.

I rather suspect that the russians have much more than we suspect

The rouble is increasing in value

The russians take MORE territory every day.

They are slowly wiping out pockets of soldiers in their tens of thousands. They have captured thousands of nazi stormtroopers holed up in the steelworks – commander of “ASOV” has been captured.

Once September comes the word is Europe gets the chop – forever. Russia disengages and sells easy, no more fertiliser, no more oil, no more gas – everyone west of the border becomes an eco warrior taking in tens of millions of third world asylum seekers.

You’re beyond parody now.

wookiemeister said:

https://youtu.be/oET1WaG5sFk

Here’s hitlers real voice, he complains about the war, how no one realised the russians had 35,000 tanks.

I rather suspect that the russians have much more than we suspect

The rouble is increasing in value

The russians take MORE territory every day.

They are slowly wiping out pockets of soldiers in their tens of thousands. They have captured thousands of nazi stormtroopers holed up in the steelworks – commander of “ASOV” has been captured.

Once September comes the word is Europe gets the chop – forever. Russia disengages and sells easy, no more fertiliser, no more oil, no more gas – everyone west of the border becomes an eco warrior taking in tens of millions of third world asylum seekers.

Even if all of this were true what is most perplexing is why you’re so happy about it.

dv said:

You’re beyond parody now.

He’s calling the good guys “the Nazis” and is rooting for the real Nazis, so yeah, he has fill-on mollwolfumblilitus.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

You’re beyond parody now.

He’s calling the good guys “the Nazis” and is rooting for the real Nazis, so yeah, he has fill-on mollwolfumblilitus.

fill-on = full-on

‘Serious and imminent’ risk of genocide in Ukraine – report

There is enough evidence to conclude that Russia is inciting genocide in Ukraine and committing atrocities intended to destroy the Ukrainian people, according to the first independent report into allegations of genocide committed by Russian troops in Ukraine.

More than 30 leading legal scholars and genocide experts have signed the report accusing the Russian state of violating several articles of the United Nations Genocide Convention, CNN reports.

The report warns there is a serious and imminent risk of genocide in Ukraine, accompanied by a long list of evidence including examples of mass killings of civilians, forced deportations and dehumanising anti-Ukrainian rhetoric used by top Russian officials.

It directly accuses Russian top officials of orchestrating incitement to genocide and laying the groundwork for future genocide by repeatedly denying the existence of a Ukrainian identity.

As examples, the report points to the dehumanising language used by Russian officials to describe Ukrainians, including words such as “bestial”, “subordinate” and “filth”, or Vladimir Putin’s statements that he believes Ukraine has no right to exist as an independent state.

Azeem Ibrahim, a director at the US-based thinktank New Lines Institute for Strategy and Policy, which put together the report, said:

What we have seen so far is that this war is genocidal in its nature, in terms of the language being used and the manner in which it is being executed. That’s very, very clear.

The experts also accused Russian forces of carrying out a “pattern of consistent and pervasive atrocities against Ukrainian civilians collectively” in the course of the invasion.

It said that well-documented massacres and summary executions in Bucha, Staryi Bykiv, and in Sumy and Chernihiv regions, Russia’s deliberate attacks on shelters, evacuation routes and healthcare facilities, as well the indiscriminate targeting and bombardment of residential areas, rapes, sieges, grain thefts and forced deportations to Russia all amount to “genocidal pattern of destruction”.

The report calls on the international community to act, warning that there is “no time at all”. Ibrahim said:

Every country that is a signatory to the Genocide convention, and that’s 151 countries including the Russian Federation, every country has to do whatever it can to put a stop to this, otherwise they will also be in breach of the convention.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/may/27/russia-ukraine-war-latest-russian-attack-kills-9-civilians-in-kharkiv-zelenskiy-accuses-moscow-of-genocide-in-donbas-live

When I saw Australia sending weapons to nazis I realised the gov had lost its mind

Do ANY kind of search and you’ll see the swastikas, death heads / satanic tattoos etc

Bonhoeffers theory of stupidity theorised that stupid people are the most dangerous – they understand NO facts – they are a mindless mob. Bon hoeffer died in a concentration camp within weeks of the end of ww2.

The other theory of stupidity says stupid people are in everywhere, very good at one thing , useless at another , I watched a distinction chemistry grad try to pull out a pyrex dish from an oven with BARE HANDS because he figured if he was quick enough it was OK – he dropped it with all the food to the floor. Very good at some things – NO reasoning skills.

In light of these theories I realised that facts, reasoning don’t work with the majority.

Purpose of the battle of the donbass now is to remove the UA that’s there ( ukraine massed 150,000 troops to invade the break away republics – when the russians invaded they just surrounded them , like the steelworks.)

Think what you want I’m not debating anyone. I’ve been watching this brain bug slowly taking over for years -

Yeah, they’re Nazis.

That’s why this bloke:

put on the Ukrainian uniform and went to fight alongside them

That’s why Zelensky, whose family lost multiple members in the Holocaust, and whose went through WW2 in the Soviet army, rose to the rank of colonel, and died peacefully in an independent Ukraine, is their President.

Zelensky’s father, that is.

captain_spalding said:

Zelensky’s father, that is.

Dammit, it was his grandfather!

I knew i’d get there, eventually.

captain_spalding said:

Yeah, they’re Nazis.

That’s why this bloke:

put on the Ukrainian uniform and went to fight alongside them

That’s why Zelensky, whose family lost multiple members in the Holocaust, and whose went through WW2 in the Soviet army, rose to the rank of colonel, and died peacefully in an independent Ukraine, is their President.

Wow

One example. You’ve convinced me. He looks VERY clean, obviously not fighting

I don’t believe ANYTHING coming out of Ukrainian propaganda.

Cities/ towns across the east are falling

wookiemeister said:

captain_spalding said:

Yeah, they’re Nazis.

That’s why this bloke:

put on the Ukrainian uniform and went to fight alongside them

That’s why Zelensky, whose family lost multiple members in the Holocaust, and whose went through WW2 in the Soviet army, rose to the rank of colonel, and died peacefully in an independent Ukraine, is their President.

Wow

One example. You’ve convinced me. He looks VERY clean, obviously not fighting

I don’t believe ANYTHING coming out of Ukrainian propaganda.

Cities/ towns across the east are falling

Wow indeed, would not have thought. Now need a rethink.

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

captain_spalding said:

Yeah, they’re Nazis.

That’s why this bloke:

put on the Ukrainian uniform and went to fight alongside them

That’s why Zelensky, whose family lost multiple members in the Holocaust, and whose went through WW2 in the Soviet army, rose to the rank of colonel, and died peacefully in an independent Ukraine, is their President.

Wow

One example. You’ve convinced me. He looks VERY clean, obviously not fighting

I don’t believe ANYTHING coming out of Ukrainian propaganda.

Cities/ towns across the east are falling

Wow indeed, would not have thought. Now need a rethink.

Wonders if Medicare will pay for a lobotomy?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-28/australian-dies-in-ukraine-michael-oneill/101107898

Looks as if those bushmasters they sent to ukraine finally got there

First image of one that’s been toasted is up on line

These things are only good if you are fighting kids with AK47s and no shoes

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

PermeateFree said:

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

Nah.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

Nah.

What do you mean ‘nah’?

PermeateFree said:

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

From wiki:

In his 25 September 2015 lecture “Why is Ukraine the West’s Fault?” Mearsheimer stated US and EU policies to Ukraine were a primrose promise, that the Western powers are encouraging Ukraine to be part of the West (even though they will be rebuffed) and encouraging the Ukraine Government to pursue a hardline policy against Russia and that “the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked”. In the same lecture Mearsheimer declared: “If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that”.

I can’t be absolutely certain, but I think he may have got this wrong.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

Nah.

What do you mean ‘nah’?

He’s an anti-Western Westerner seeking to blame Putin’s psychopathic ambitions on the West, for daring to be friendly and welcoming to a democratic, pro-Western Ukraine.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

From wiki:

In his 25 September 2015 lecture “Why is Ukraine the West’s Fault?” Mearsheimer stated US and EU policies to Ukraine were a primrose promise, that the Western powers are encouraging Ukraine to be part of the West (even though they will be rebuffed) and encouraging the Ukraine Government to pursue a hardline policy against Russia and that “the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked”. In the same lecture Mearsheimer declared: “If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that”.

I can’t be absolutely certain, but I think he may have got this wrong.

A 2015 lecture would not be up to date. However, I can only go on what I have listened to on the video and I think he was very logical in his assessments.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Nah.

What do you mean ‘nah’?

He’s an anti-Western Westerner seeking to blame Putin’s psychopathic ambitions on the West, for daring to be friendly and welcoming to a democratic, pro-Western Ukraine.

I don’t know about that, but he said no such thing in the video I presented. If you want to learn something about the Ukraine war and its background then you will find the video presented very interesting, but if you are not interested then don’t listen to it.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

Have just listened to the video below regarding John Mearsheimer’s opinion on the Ukraine war. I must say I found his views very sound and logical and must admit it changed my opinion by replacing it with a new and more sophisticated appreciation of the matter. It is not a short titillating’s video so will most likely only appeal to those with a strong interest in the background and movements between Russia and America with Ukraine in the middle being used by both.

>>John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.
Wikipedia

John Mearsheimer on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_e9krvmq7s&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

From wiki:

In his 25 September 2015 lecture “Why is Ukraine the West’s Fault?” Mearsheimer stated US and EU policies to Ukraine were a primrose promise, that the Western powers are encouraging Ukraine to be part of the West (even though they will be rebuffed) and encouraging the Ukraine Government to pursue a hardline policy against Russia and that “the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked”. In the same lecture Mearsheimer declared: “If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that”.

I can’t be absolutely certain, but I think he may have got this wrong.

if you’re referring to latter propositions you may need consider the difference between wreck and conquer

but maybe you weren’t

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10867191/Australian-Bushmaster-sent-Ukraine-destroyed-Russians-near-Donetsk-Luhansk-border.html

Heard on the BBC last night that Russian troops are reported to be in the center of Donesk or some such, looking grim in the east.

EU moves on Russian oil: The European Union agreed to ban 90% of Russian oil imports by the end of the year, the leaders of the European Council announced on Monday. Russian oil delivered by tankers would be banned, while an exemption will be made for the southern segment of the Druzhba pipeline, which accounts for 10% of imports on Russian oil, President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen said Monday following a summit in Brussels.
Further sanctions: Von der Leyen also said EU leaders agreed to remove Sberbank, Russia’s largest bank, from the SWIFT network, as well as institute a ban on the insurance of Russian ships by EU companies and a ban on providing Russian companies with a range of services. She added there would be a suspension of broadcasting of three more Russian state outlets in the EU but did not specify which broadcasters would be suspended.

dv said:

EU moves on Russian oil: The European Union agreed to ban 90% of Russian oil imports by the end of the year, the leaders of the European Council announced on Monday. Russian oil delivered by tankers would be banned, while an exemption will be made for the southern segment of the Druzhba pipeline, which accounts for 10% of imports on Russian oil, President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen said Monday following a summit in Brussels.
Further sanctions: Von der Leyen also said EU leaders agreed to remove Sberbank, Russia’s largest bank, from the SWIFT network, as well as institute a ban on the insurance of Russian ships by EU companies and a ban on providing Russian companies with a range of services. She added there would be a suspension of broadcasting of three more Russian state outlets in the EU but did not specify which broadcasters would be suspended.

It is going to be difficult but if we can at least convince Russia that we don’t need their oil and gas. then what have they got left to fall back upon?

In the meantime, if not using Russian fossil fuels and not having the availability of access to both Russian and Ukranian resources, if we managed to get along. Then maybe by then we will have shown both the above, the way forward.

captain_spalding said:

Grandad would still be alive – they weren’t killed, they surrendered and got delivered back to ukraine.

Peak Warming Man said:

Heard on the BBC last night that Russian troops are reported to be in the center of Donesk or some such, looking grim in the east.

NO !

Haven’t you heard some UA troops took a border marker and got some pictures with it – ukraine is definitely winning.

If anyone tells you the russians have TWENTY THOUSAND T72 tanks in storage ( not including other models) its just crazy talk.

Australia will be fine, we won’t go dark in September, we don’t rely on Russian materials that much ( housing timber not included)

The only silver lining recently has been the Labor victory. It means we won’t be getting into any proxy wars with China. With any luck the 50 billion being spent on subs will be cut – Australia doesn’t have the know how to build new subs, realistically any war with China will see the east cost go dark for years. We’ve dodged a bullet.

roughbarked said:

Russia has claimed to have taken prisoner nearly 2,500 Ukrainian fighters from the besieged Mariupol steel plant, and concerns are growing over their fate after a Moscow-backed separatist leader vowed they would face tribunals.
The story of Mariupol is sickening to behold.

Yes and if you cared to watch the footage they are covered in swastikas, death heads, SS insignia and other nazi symbols. There’s one of them that’s been captured with all this on his body that had gleefully declared months before about wanting to kill the Chechen leader’s mother.

The latest story has a UA nazi lady that was caught by the russians , she killed the parents of some children and tried sneaking out of the siege with the very young of said kids.

In true Australian style the gov is backing the very worst of humanity.

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

Russia has claimed to have taken prisoner nearly 2,500 Ukrainian fighters from the besieged Mariupol steel plant, and concerns are growing over their fate after a Moscow-backed separatist leader vowed they would face tribunals.
The story of Mariupol is sickening to behold.

Yes and if you cared to watch the footage they are covered in swastikas, death heads, SS insignia and other nazi symbols. There’s one of them that’s been captured with all this on his body that had gleefully declared months before about wanting to kill the Chechen leader’s mother.

The latest story has a UA nazi lady that was caught by the russians , she killed the parents of some children and tried sneaking out of the siege with the very young of said kids.

In true Australian style the gov is backing the very worst of humanity.

You know which other country has a sizeable population of neo-Nazis?

Russia.

It’d be a very safe bet that there’s more than a few Russian prisoners (and corpses) also sporting Nazi eagle tattooes and swastikas and SS runes and such shit.

And they’re sure not conducting themselves like an excursion party from Miss Pennyweather’s College for Cultured Young Ladies, either. There’s a lot dead Ukrainians with their handstied behind their backs who’d testify to that, if they could.

Russia is expected to lose a decade of economic growth in the space of a year
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/russias-economy-facing-worst-contraction-since-1994

dv said:

Russia is expected to lose a decade of economic growth in the space of a year
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/russias-economy-facing-worst-contraction-since-1994

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

party_pants said:

dv said:

Russia is expected to lose a decade of economic growth in the space of a year
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/russias-economy-facing-worst-contraction-since-1994

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

dv said:

Russia is expected to lose a decade of economic growth in the space of a year
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/russias-economy-facing-worst-contraction-since-1994

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Did Putin ask if it was okay to do the same to Ukraine?

They’ve stepped up the attacks

Slow, incremental, overwhelming

They hit some command post killing 30 general staff , top echelon of the UA in the last 24 hrs.

They’ll hit the switch stations of the western power grid at some point to stop the flow of weapons eastward.

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Did Putin ask if it was okay to do the same to Ukraine?

we’re sure there were some Ukrainians who agreed and there will be some Russians who agree too, so that makes both acceptable

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Did Putin ask if it was okay to do the same to Ukraine?

The UA had massed 150,000 troops in the east to invade the break away republics.

Now thousands of them have started surrendering, bottled up by the RA.

party_pants said:

dv said:

Russia is expected to lose a decade of economic growth in the space of a year
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/russias-economy-facing-worst-contraction-since-1994

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

People with nukes don’t like taking orders from other people.

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Did Putin ask if it was okay to do the same to Ukraine?

The UA had massed 150,000 troops in the east to invade the break away republics.

Now thousands of them have started surrendering, bottled up by the RA.

You truly are hilarious. What about Putin’s army of a million winged monkeys garrisoned in Transnistria ready to swoop in at the first opportune time?

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

dv said:

Russia is expected to lose a decade of economic growth in the space of a year
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/russias-economy-facing-worst-contraction-since-1994

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Russia did not ask if it was OK to absorb other non-Russians into their empire. They left at the first opportunity they got. The end goal for the Russians is to regain the Soviet Union, and place all those people back under their control so they can control the geographic territory. At its heart it means a relatively small population of Russians ruling over a non-Russian population larger than themselves. So fuck them, I have not asked, because they haven’t asked anyone else.

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

It had drawn a line in the sand around that time, but NATO was not listening.

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

If that’s the case, they should be embarrassed because this has been calamitous for them.

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Did Putin ask if it was okay to do the same to Ukraine?

The UA had massed 150,000 troops in the east to invade the break away republics.

Now thousands of them have started surrendering, bottled up by the RA.

You truly are hilarious. What about Putin’s army of a million winged monkeys garrisoned in Transnistria ready to swoop in at the first opportune time?

I put my money on the red army

Of course if the Australian army wants to have a pop at clearly sub human Slavs that are fit only to be conquered and broken up into whatever units we consider appropriate then be my guest. This won’t be like fighting 14 year old boys with AKs and be given a medal for it. We’ve been brainwashed into thinking the russians are stupid and deserve only to be used.

This war is only just cranking up, think of thousands of tanks, drones, missiles pouring out of the factories of the east. It’s OK because Europe will cut itself off from oil and gas – at the moment the ONE BILLION dollars made by Russia per day selling natural gas and oil to Europe can power those factories. The west has to decided to start a war it won’t win.

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

If that’s the case, they should be embarrassed because this has been calamitous for them.

The russians play the long game

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

If that’s the case, they should be embarrassed because this has been calamitous for them.

But I think that’s the downside of being a brutal autocracy. Sometimes you need to have people around you who will tell you the truth, not what you want to hear.

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

Russia must be destroyed and broken up into several smaller units.

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Russia did not ask if it was OK to absorb other non-Russians into their empire. They left at the first opportunity they got. The end goal for the Russians is to regain the Soviet Union, and place all those people back under their control so they can control the geographic territory. At its heart it means a relatively small population of Russians ruling over a non-Russian population larger than themselves. So fuck them, I have not asked, because they haven’t asked anyone else.

Don’t think that is the case, NATO with America’s assistance has been pushing East for some time, getting closer and closer to Russia’s boundary. It was when Ukraine started to talk about joining NATO that Russia acted. Russia had been saying for some time that they were not going to have NATO and America right up to their border. Russia said “It will not happen” as a line drawn in the sand, but the warning was not heeded by NATO or America.

I heard another stat saying that the russians turn out at least 30 kaliber missiles a day ( probably more).

dv said:

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

If that’s the case, they should be embarrassed because this has been calamitous for them.

But I think that’s the downside of being a brutal autocracy. Sometimes you need to have people around you who will tell you the truth, not what you want to hear.

Isn’t that why wookie posts here?

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

The UA had massed 150,000 troops in the east to invade the break away republics.

Now thousands of them have started surrendering, bottled up by the RA.

You truly are hilarious. What about Putin’s army of a million winged monkeys garrisoned in Transnistria ready to swoop in at the first opportune time?

I put my money on the red army

Of course if the Australian army wants to have a pop at clearly sub human Slavs that are fit only to be conquered and broken up into whatever units we consider appropriate then be my guest. This won’t be like fighting 14 year old boys with AKs and be given a medal for it. We’ve been brainwashed into thinking the russians are stupid and deserve only to be used.

This war is only just cranking up, think of thousands of tanks, drones, missiles pouring out of the factories of the east. It’s OK because Europe will cut itself off from oil and gas – at the moment the ONE BILLION dollars made by Russia per day selling natural gas and oil to Europe can power those factories. The west has to decided to start a war it won’t win.

But winged monkeys?!?

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

It had drawn a line in the sand around that time, but NATO was not listening.

Russia has no moral claim to draw lines. Like I said, the non-Russian peoples left at the first opportunity they got and asked to join NATO instead. Democratically elected governments, some of the countries even held a referendum before joining. The is no Russian moral claim to stop the expansion of NATO by voluntary means. Nor any Russian moral claim to oversee the the foreign policy of any other peoples. The fact they are used to doing this by force in the past is not a moral claim in the opresent. If they can’t grasp that they can be destroyed and sent back to serfdom.

sibeen said:

dv said:

dv said:

If that’s the case, they should be embarrassed because this has been calamitous for them.

But I think that’s the downside of being a brutal autocracy. Sometimes you need to have people around you who will tell you the truth, not what you want to hear.

Isn’t that why wookie posts here?

Wait, does wookie still post here?

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

Have you asked any russians if this is OK ?

see – this is the problem

Russia did not ask if it was OK to absorb other non-Russians into their empire. They left at the first opportunity they got. The end goal for the Russians is to regain the Soviet Union, and place all those people back under their control so they can control the geographic territory. At its heart it means a relatively small population of Russians ruling over a non-Russian population larger than themselves. So fuck them, I have not asked, because they haven’t asked anyone else.

Don’t think that is the case, NATO with America’s assistance has been pushing East for some time, getting closer and closer to Russia’s boundary. It was when Ukraine started to talk about joining NATO that Russia acted. Russia had been saying for some time that they were not going to have NATO and America right up to their border. Russia said “It will not happen” as a line drawn in the sand, but the warning was not heeded by NATO or America.

We will end up without Russia. They can’t cope with the sanctions. They are a exporter of base commodities, they can’t do the necessary manufacturing or high tech stuff. They are facing rapid de-industrialisation. Even their oil and gas sector is heavily dependent on Western inputs and expertise. Their oil and gas sector will go downhill at the same time as they de-industrialise generally. As long as the sanctions are kept up Russia is going backwards.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

wookiemeister said:

What if Russia has been planning, preparing for this eventuality since 2014 ?

It had drawn a line in the sand around that time, but NATO was not listening.

Russia has no moral claim to draw lines. Like I said, the non-Russian peoples left at the first opportunity they got and asked to join NATO instead. Democratically elected governments, some of the countries even held a referendum before joining. The is no Russian moral claim to stop the expansion of NATO by voluntary means. Nor any Russian moral claim to oversee the the foreign policy of any other peoples. The fact they are used to doing this by force in the past is not a moral claim in the opresent. If they can’t grasp that they can be destroyed and sent back to serfdom.

It has nothing to do with morals or anything else. It is about a large country with a lot of nukes saying they are NOT going to have NATO or America on their border. Nothing else matters to them, as far as they are concern they can and likely will destroy every building in Ukraine because their economy is of little interest to them. Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO. That is the line they have drawn.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Russia did not ask if it was OK to absorb other non-Russians into their empire. They left at the first opportunity they got. The end goal for the Russians is to regain the Soviet Union, and place all those people back under their control so they can control the geographic territory. At its heart it means a relatively small population of Russians ruling over a non-Russian population larger than themselves. So fuck them, I have not asked, because they haven’t asked anyone else.

Don’t think that is the case, NATO with America’s assistance has been pushing East for some time, getting closer and closer to Russia’s boundary. It was when Ukraine started to talk about joining NATO that Russia acted. Russia had been saying for some time that they were not going to have NATO and America right up to their border. Russia said “It will not happen” as a line drawn in the sand, but the warning was not heeded by NATO or America.

We will end up without Russia. They can’t cope with the sanctions. They are a exporter of base commodities, they can’t do the necessary manufacturing or high tech stuff. They are facing rapid de-industrialisation. Even their oil and gas sector is heavily dependent on Western inputs and expertise. Their oil and gas sector will go downhill at the same time as they de-industrialise generally. As long as the sanctions are kept up Russia is going backwards.

Everyone will suffer that is the nature of war and I am sure Russia did not think things would go as they have for them. But unless they abandon the reason for starting the war they will continue in one way or another. When you have the number of nukes as they do, you must always treat them with respect and even more so if they feel they are losing.

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

But I think that’s the downside of being a brutal autocracy. Sometimes you need to have people around you who will tell you the truth, not what you want to hear.

Isn’t that why wookie posts here?

Wait, does wookie still post here?

He comes in, whips us into shape, and then leaves again. It is his role on the wheel of life. A hard role, but he does it well.

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

It had drawn a line in the sand around that time, but NATO was not listening.

Russia has no moral claim to draw lines. Like I said, the non-Russian peoples left at the first opportunity they got and asked to join NATO instead. Democratically elected governments, some of the countries even held a referendum before joining. The is no Russian moral claim to stop the expansion of NATO by voluntary means. Nor any Russian moral claim to oversee the the foreign policy of any other peoples. The fact they are used to doing this by force in the past is not a moral claim in the opresent. If they can’t grasp that they can be destroyed and sent back to serfdom.

It has nothing to do with morals or anything else. It is about a large country with a lot of nukes saying they are NOT going to have NATO or America on their border. Nothing else matters to them, as far as they are concern they can and likely will destroy every building in Ukraine because their economy is of little interest to them. Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO. That is the line they have drawn.

That is just the cover story. The real objective is to rebuild the empire and regain control of all their former satellite states.

By the same token, the US is just as strong a nuclear power as Russia, and they have decided that Russia will have no sway over eastern Europe. Eastern Europe will be politically and economically allied to the globalised western world order. That is the line they have drawn. That is the line that the EU have drawn too.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Isn’t that why wookie posts here?

Wait, does wookie still post here?

He comes in, whips us into shape, and then leaves again. It is his role on the wheel of life. A hard role, but he does it well.

So is he Sisyphus and we the rock, or is he the eagle and we Prometheus?

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

Wait, does wookie still post here?

He comes in, whips us into shape, and then leaves again. It is his role on the wheel of life. A hard role, but he does it well.

So is he Sisyphus and we the rock, or is he the eagle and we Prometheus?

Sisyphus – and a role he plays well.

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Don’t think that is the case, NATO with America’s assistance has been pushing East for some time, getting closer and closer to Russia’s boundary. It was when Ukraine started to talk about joining NATO that Russia acted. Russia had been saying for some time that they were not going to have NATO and America right up to their border. Russia said “It will not happen” as a line drawn in the sand, but the warning was not heeded by NATO or America.

We will end up without Russia. They can’t cope with the sanctions. They are a exporter of base commodities, they can’t do the necessary manufacturing or high tech stuff. They are facing rapid de-industrialisation. Even their oil and gas sector is heavily dependent on Western inputs and expertise. Their oil and gas sector will go downhill at the same time as they de-industrialise generally. As long as the sanctions are kept up Russia is going backwards.

Everyone will suffer that is the nature of war and I am sure Russia did not think things would go as they have for them. But unless they abandon the reason for starting the war they will continue in one way or another. When you have the number of nukes as they do, you must always treat them with respect and even more so if they feel they are losing.

That is why no NATO troops have been committed. The sanctions must be allowed to do the heavy lifting on defeating Russia in this war. As long as the sanctions remain in place Russia is finished.

Hopefully other comrades not named Putin will see the light first and effect some sort of “internal political reform” and come to some sort of new working arrangement with the west. Then we can all get back on with normal life.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Russia has no moral claim to draw lines. Like I said, the non-Russian peoples left at the first opportunity they got and asked to join NATO instead. Democratically elected governments, some of the countries even held a referendum before joining. The is no Russian moral claim to stop the expansion of NATO by voluntary means. Nor any Russian moral claim to oversee the the foreign policy of any other peoples. The fact they are used to doing this by force in the past is not a moral claim in the opresent. If they can’t grasp that they can be destroyed and sent back to serfdom.

It has nothing to do with morals or anything else. It is about a large country with a lot of nukes saying they are NOT going to have NATO or America on their border. Nothing else matters to them, as far as they are concern they can and likely will destroy every building in Ukraine because their economy is of little interest to them. Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO. That is the line they have drawn.

That is just the cover story. The real objective is to rebuild the empire and regain control of all their former satellite states.

By the same token, the US is just as strong a nuclear power as Russia, and they have decided that Russia will have no sway over eastern Europe. Eastern Europe will be politically and economically allied to the globalised western world order. That is the line they have drawn. That is the line that the EU have drawn too.

I think what you relate is western propaganda and regardless of the comparison between Russia and America, if Russia sent their nukes off to do as much destruction as they could, it would not matter that they could be obliterated by American nukes. This is why America is not suppling Ukraine with the latest missiles that are very accurate and can travel up to 300 miles. If Ukraine fired some into Russia it could start a nuclear war.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

We will end up without Russia. They can’t cope with the sanctions. They are a exporter of base commodities, they can’t do the necessary manufacturing or high tech stuff. They are facing rapid de-industrialisation. Even their oil and gas sector is heavily dependent on Western inputs and expertise. Their oil and gas sector will go downhill at the same time as they de-industrialise generally. As long as the sanctions are kept up Russia is going backwards.

Everyone will suffer that is the nature of war and I am sure Russia did not think things would go as they have for them. But unless they abandon the reason for starting the war they will continue in one way or another. When you have the number of nukes as they do, you must always treat them with respect and even more so if they feel they are losing.

That is why no NATO troops have been committed. The sanctions must be allowed to do the heavy lifting on defeating Russia in this war. As long as the sanctions remain in place Russia is finished.

Hopefully other comrades not named Putin will see the light first and effect some sort of “internal political reform” and come to some sort of new working arrangement with the west. Then we can all get back on with normal life.

As long as they have nuclear weapons with the means to deliver them, they are certainly NOT finished.

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Everyone will suffer that is the nature of war and I am sure Russia did not think things would go as they have for them. But unless they abandon the reason for starting the war they will continue in one way or another. When you have the number of nukes as they do, you must always treat them with respect and even more so if they feel they are losing.

That is why no NATO troops have been committed. The sanctions must be allowed to do the heavy lifting on defeating Russia in this war. As long as the sanctions remain in place Russia is finished.

Hopefully other comrades not named Putin will see the light first and effect some sort of “internal political reform” and come to some sort of new working arrangement with the west. Then we can all get back on with normal life.

As long as they have nuclear weapons with the means to deliver them, they are certainly NOT finished.

The nukes are a complicating factor for sure. This is why NATO are treading far more cautiously than what I am saying here.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Russia has no moral claim to draw lines. Like I said, the non-Russian peoples left at the first opportunity they got and asked to join NATO instead. Democratically elected governments, some of the countries even held a referendum before joining. The is no Russian moral claim to stop the expansion of NATO by voluntary means. Nor any Russian moral claim to oversee the the foreign policy of any other peoples. The fact they are used to doing this by force in the past is not a moral claim in the opresent. If they can’t grasp that they can be destroyed and sent back to serfdom.

It has nothing to do with morals or anything else. It is about a large country with a lot of nukes saying they are NOT going to have NATO or America on their border. Nothing else matters to them, as far as they are concern they can and likely will destroy every building in Ukraine because their economy is of little interest to them. Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO. That is the line they have drawn.

That is just the cover story. The real objective is to rebuild the empire and regain control of all their former satellite states.

By the same token, the US is just as strong a nuclear power as Russia, and they have decided that Russia will have no sway over eastern Europe. Eastern Europe will be politically and economically allied to the globalised western world order. That is the line they have drawn. That is the line that the EU have drawn too.

…and most importantly, nearly all of Eastern Europe itself chooses to align with the West.

The primitive thinking that still holds sway in Imperial Russia is a relic of the ugly past, but still claiming many thousands of wasted lives.

>Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO.

For one simple reason – they want to rebuild their empire by invading other countries at will.

A Russia intent on living peacefully with its independent neighbours would have no reason at all to fear NATO, as they’re well aware.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

That is why no NATO troops have been committed. The sanctions must be allowed to do the heavy lifting on defeating Russia in this war. As long as the sanctions remain in place Russia is finished.

Hopefully other comrades not named Putin will see the light first and effect some sort of “internal political reform” and come to some sort of new working arrangement with the west. Then we can all get back on with normal life.

As long as they have nuclear weapons with the means to deliver them, they are certainly NOT finished.

The nukes are a complicating factor for sure. This is why NATO are treading far more cautiously than what I am saying here.

As well they should, as they have also said that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO largely to appease Russia. America and NATO are happy that Ukraine is doing all the work, spending their lives and having their infrastructure destroyed without it directly affecting them, as it is weakening Russia an old foe and one of their main adversaries.

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

As long as they have nuclear weapons with the means to deliver them, they are certainly NOT finished.

The nukes are a complicating factor for sure. This is why NATO are treading far more cautiously than what I am saying here.

As well they should, as they have also said that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO largely to appease Russia. America and NATO are happy that Ukraine is doing all the work, spending their lives and having their infrastructure destroyed without it directly affecting them, as it is weakening Russia an old foe and one of their main adversaries.

You’ve turned into a daft moll clone, as expected.

I wonder why it took so long….

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

It has nothing to do with morals or anything else. It is about a large country with a lot of nukes saying they are NOT going to have NATO or America on their border. Nothing else matters to them, as far as they are concern they can and likely will destroy every building in Ukraine because their economy is of little interest to them. Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO. That is the line they have drawn.

That is just the cover story. The real objective is to rebuild the empire and regain control of all their former satellite states.

By the same token, the US is just as strong a nuclear power as Russia, and they have decided that Russia will have no sway over eastern Europe. Eastern Europe will be politically and economically allied to the globalised western world order. That is the line they have drawn. That is the line that the EU have drawn too.

…and most importantly, nearly all of Eastern Europe itself chooses to align with the West.

The primitive thinking that still holds sway in Imperial Russia is a relic of the ugly past, but still claiming many thousands of wasted lives.

But that is not the point, Russia just wants to stop NATO and America on their border. Right or wrong, good or bad has nothing to do with it.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

That is just the cover story. The real objective is to rebuild the empire and regain control of all their former satellite states.

By the same token, the US is just as strong a nuclear power as Russia, and they have decided that Russia will have no sway over eastern Europe. Eastern Europe will be politically and economically allied to the globalised western world order. That is the line they have drawn. That is the line that the EU have drawn too.

…and most importantly, nearly all of Eastern Europe itself chooses to align with the West.

The primitive thinking that still holds sway in Imperial Russia is a relic of the ugly past, but still claiming many thousands of wasted lives.

But that is not the point, Russia just wants to stop NATO and America on their border. Right or wrong, good or bad has nothing to do with it.

NATO has absolutely no interest in threatening, opposing or conquering a peaceful Russia, as Putin and his generals are well aware.

NATO is only a threat because Russia wants to do exactly the kind of thing they’re now doing in Ukraine – killing vast numbers of innocent people in order to vanquish neighbouring democracies and bring them under the Russian dictatorship.

Bubblecar said:

>Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO.

For one simple reason – they want to rebuild their empire by invading other countries at will.

A Russia intent on living peacefully with its independent neighbours would have no reason at all to fear NATO, as they’re well aware.

Looking from Russia’s point of view, NATO and America are not exactly very friendly to Russia, in fact in America they are very anti-Russia and who would want them on your border and relatively close to Moscow. It was the same with Russia placing nukes on Cuba, America said NO, get them out of here or there will be trouble. It is much the same with Russia, with America and NATO on their border.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

The nukes are a complicating factor for sure. This is why NATO are treading far more cautiously than what I am saying here.

As well they should, as they have also said that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO largely to appease Russia. America and NATO are happy that Ukraine is doing all the work, spending their lives and having their infrastructure destroyed without it directly affecting them, as it is weakening Russia an old foe and one of their main adversaries.

You’ve turned into a daft moll clone, as expected.

I wonder why it took so long….

You really are a close minded bigot Car. Why don’t you just open your eyes for a change.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

…and most importantly, nearly all of Eastern Europe itself chooses to align with the West.

The primitive thinking that still holds sway in Imperial Russia is a relic of the ugly past, but still claiming many thousands of wasted lives.

But that is not the point, Russia just wants to stop NATO and America on their border. Right or wrong, good or bad has nothing to do with it.

NATO has absolutely no interest in threatening, opposing or conquering a peaceful Russia, as Putin and his generals are well aware.

NATO is only a threat because Russia wants to do exactly the kind of thing they’re now doing in Ukraine – killing vast numbers of innocent people in order to vanquish neighbouring democracies and bring them under the Russian dictatorship.

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

As well they should, as they have also said that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO largely to appease Russia. America and NATO are happy that Ukraine is doing all the work, spending their lives and having their infrastructure destroyed without it directly affecting them, as it is weakening Russia an old foe and one of their main adversaries.

You’ve turned into a daft moll clone, as expected.

I wonder why it took so long….

You really are a close minded bigot Car. Why don’t you just open your eyes for a change.

Oh, come on, PF, surely you’re aware that the Car has been one of the leaders of the Dark Orange Cabal (DOC), guiding us all in a righteous indignation fight against you.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

>Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO.

For one simple reason – they want to rebuild their empire by invading other countries at will.

A Russia intent on living peacefully with its independent neighbours would have no reason at all to fear NATO, as they’re well aware.

Looking from Russia’s point of view, NATO and America are not exactly very friendly to Russia, in fact in America they are very anti-Russia and who would want them on your border and relatively close to Moscow. It was the same with Russia placing nukes on Cuba, America said NO, get them out of here or there will be trouble. It is much the same with Russia, with America and NATO on their border.

That was when Russia was a communist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

It’s now a fascist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

I can but repeat – if Russia was a peaceful country willing to respect other people’s borders, they would have no reason at all to fear NATO.

A genuinely peaceful Russia could even apply to join NATO, but their current ruling class would never dream of that because they’re nationalist supremacists with a crippling inferiority complex, full of paranoid shit and hate, especially in what passes for Putin’s “mind”.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

You’ve turned into a daft moll clone, as expected.

I wonder why it took so long….

You really are a close minded bigot Car. Why don’t you just open your eyes for a change.

Oh, come on, PF, surely you’re aware that the Car has been one of the leaders of the Dark Orange Cabal (DOC), guiding us all in a righteous indignation fight against you.

I really don’t care, all I try to do is present a realistic point of view, but that invariably falls on barren ground.

PermeateFree said:

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

You really are a close minded bigot Car. Why don’t you just open your eyes for a change.

Oh, come on, PF, surely you’re aware that the Car has been one of the leaders of the Dark Orange Cabal (DOC), guiding us all in a righteous indignation fight against you.

I really don’t care, all I try to do is present a realistic point of view, but that invariably falls on barren ground.

Nah, you’re just an annoying flog. Always have been. I generally ignore you, because you’re a cunt, but occasionally, like now, will butt into a conversation, just to say, dickhead.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

But that is not the point, Russia just wants to stop NATO and America on their border. Right or wrong, good or bad has nothing to do with it.

NATO has absolutely no interest in threatening, opposing or conquering a peaceful Russia, as Putin and his generals are well aware.

NATO is only a threat because Russia wants to do exactly the kind of thing they’re now doing in Ukraine – killing vast numbers of innocent people in order to vanquish neighbouring democracies and bring them under the Russian dictatorship.

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

Putin and his government know that their security is only at risk because they’re intent on invading their neighbours.

You’re falling for very obvious bullshit.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

>Their only interest is a buffer between them and NATO.

For one simple reason – they want to rebuild their empire by invading other countries at will.

A Russia intent on living peacefully with its independent neighbours would have no reason at all to fear NATO, as they’re well aware.

Looking from Russia’s point of view, NATO and America are not exactly very friendly to Russia, in fact in America they are very anti-Russia and who would want them on your border and relatively close to Moscow. It was the same with Russia placing nukes on Cuba, America said NO, get them out of here or there will be trouble. It is much the same with Russia, with America and NATO on their border.

That was when Russia was a communist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

It’s now a fascist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

I can but repeat – if Russia was a peaceful country willing to respect other people’s borders, they would have no reason at all to fear NATO.

A genuinely peaceful Russia could even apply to join NATO, but their current ruling class would never dream of that because they’re nationalist supremacists with a crippling inferiority complex, full of paranoid shit and hate, especially in what passes for Putin’s “mind”.

I am not arguing with what you say, yes Putin and Co are total bastards, but there are reasons for what they do and the West has painted a similar picture to your own, but Russia does not all wear black hats and the west does not all wear white hats. What ever way you look at it Russia would feel very threatened with NATO and America on their border and reasonably close to their capitol.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

sibeen said:

Oh, come on, PF, surely you’re aware that the Car has been one of the leaders of the Dark Orange Cabal (DOC), guiding us all in a righteous indignation fight against you.

I really don’t care, all I try to do is present a realistic point of view, but that invariably falls on barren ground.

Nah, you’re just an annoying flog. Always have been. I generally ignore you, because you’re a cunt, but occasionally, like now, will butt into a conversation, just to say, dickhead.

A you are an uncouth ignorant prick with nothing but a very basic outlook on life. Anyway Despite your rudeness I do hope I offend you as that is one of my main aims.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Looking from Russia’s point of view, NATO and America are not exactly very friendly to Russia, in fact in America they are very anti-Russia and who would want them on your border and relatively close to Moscow. It was the same with Russia placing nukes on Cuba, America said NO, get them out of here or there will be trouble. It is much the same with Russia, with America and NATO on their border.

That was when Russia was a communist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

It’s now a fascist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

I can but repeat – if Russia was a peaceful country willing to respect other people’s borders, they would have no reason at all to fear NATO.

A genuinely peaceful Russia could even apply to join NATO, but their current ruling class would never dream of that because they’re nationalist supremacists with a crippling inferiority complex, full of paranoid shit and hate, especially in what passes for Putin’s “mind”.

I am not arguing with what you say, yes Putin and Co are total bastards, but there are reasons for what they do and the West has painted a similar picture to your own, but Russia does not all wear black hats and the west does not all wear white hats. What ever way you look at it Russia would feel very threatened with NATO and America on their border and reasonably close to their capitol.

Russians who feel threatened by NATO only do so because they’ve been fed paranoid bullshit propaganda by their governments for generations.

Putin and his supporters are relics of the old military empire-building era, and that’s the only reason they fear the West. They want to build a brutal, repressive, anti-democratic empire because their primitive minds associate that with “greatness”.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

NATO has absolutely no interest in threatening, opposing or conquering a peaceful Russia, as Putin and his generals are well aware.

NATO is only a threat because Russia wants to do exactly the kind of thing they’re now doing in Ukraine – killing vast numbers of innocent people in order to vanquish neighbouring democracies and bring them under the Russian dictatorship.

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

Putin and his government know that their security is only at risk because they’re intent on invading their neighbours.

You’re falling for very obvious bullshit.

And you are ignoring the obvious.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

But that is not the point, Russia just wants to stop NATO and America on their border. Right or wrong, good or bad has nothing to do with it.

NATO has absolutely no interest in threatening, opposing or conquering a peaceful Russia, as Putin and his generals are well aware.

NATO is only a threat because Russia wants to do exactly the kind of thing they’re now doing in Ukraine – killing vast numbers of innocent people in order to vanquish neighbouring democracies and bring them under the Russian dictatorship.

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

Realistically NATO (and to an lesser extent the EU) provides Russia with additional security. Under the NATO collective arrangement there is far less chance of a rogue state like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France rising up and invading Russisa. The collective framework would not allow it.

Russia’s security is not threatened because of the nuclear arsenal anyway. They don’t need to control vast areas of territory with conventional forces, political control, brutality and all the rest of it. If they had read your posts over the last hour or so they would realise that their nuclear arsenal alone is more than enough to protect their physical territorial borders from invasion by rogue states.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

Putin and his government know that their security is only at risk because they’re intent on invading their neighbours.

You’re falling for very obvious bullshit.

And you are ignoring the obvious.

Nah.

Anyway, end of conversation, it’s a waste of my time.

PermeateFree said:

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

I really don’t care, all I try to do is present a realistic point of view, but that invariably falls on barren ground.

Nah, you’re just an annoying flog. Always have been. I generally ignore you, because you’re a cunt, but occasionally, like now, will butt into a conversation, just to say, dickhead.

A you are an uncouth ignorant prick with nothing but a very basic outlook on life. Anyway Despite your rudeness I do hope I offend you as that is one of my main aims.

You don’t offend me. To do that I’d have to give a single fuck about you. I just find you to be an obnoxious nothing.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

That was when Russia was a communist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

It’s now a fascist dictatorship, intent on brutal empire building and undermining the democratic West.

I can but repeat – if Russia was a peaceful country willing to respect other people’s borders, they would have no reason at all to fear NATO.

A genuinely peaceful Russia could even apply to join NATO, but their current ruling class would never dream of that because they’re nationalist supremacists with a crippling inferiority complex, full of paranoid shit and hate, especially in what passes for Putin’s “mind”.

I am not arguing with what you say, yes Putin and Co are total bastards, but there are reasons for what they do and the West has painted a similar picture to your own, but Russia does not all wear black hats and the west does not all wear white hats. What ever way you look at it Russia would feel very threatened with NATO and America on their border and reasonably close to their capitol.

Russians who feel threatened by NATO only do so because they’ve been fed paranoid bullshit propaganda by their governments for generations.

Putin and his supporters are relics of the old military empire-building era, and that’s the only reason they fear the West. They want to build a brutal, repressive, anti-democratic empire because their primitive minds associate that with “greatness”.

Well I hope you don’t get some really nasty neighbors and I mean really nasty types and see if you then feel threatened. And they can be real or imagined as it is all in your mind.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

NATO has absolutely no interest in threatening, opposing or conquering a peaceful Russia, as Putin and his generals are well aware.

NATO is only a threat because Russia wants to do exactly the kind of thing they’re now doing in Ukraine – killing vast numbers of innocent people in order to vanquish neighbouring democracies and bring them under the Russian dictatorship.

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

Realistically NATO (and to an lesser extent the EU) provides Russia with additional security. Under the NATO collective arrangement there is far less chance of a rogue state like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France rising up and invading Russisa. The collective framework would not allow it.

Russia’s security is not threatened because of the nuclear arsenal anyway. They don’t need to control vast areas of territory with conventional forces, political control, brutality and all the rest of it. If they had read your posts over the last hour or so they would realise that their nuclear arsenal alone is more than enough to protect their physical territorial borders from invasion by rogue states.

LOL

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Putin and his government know that their security is only at risk because they’re intent on invading their neighbours.

You’re falling for very obvious bullshit.

And you are ignoring the obvious.

Nah.

Anyway, end of conversation, it’s a waste of my time.

It is never a conversation with you Car, just your opinions dating back decades that have never been reviewed.

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Whether NATO wants to invade Russia or not is immaterial, it is about Russia’s security whether it is real or imagined.

Realistically NATO (and to an lesser extent the EU) provides Russia with additional security. Under the NATO collective arrangement there is far less chance of a rogue state like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France rising up and invading Russisa. The collective framework would not allow it.

Russia’s security is not threatened because of the nuclear arsenal anyway. They don’t need to control vast areas of territory with conventional forces, political control, brutality and all the rest of it. If they had read your posts over the last hour or so they would realise that their nuclear arsenal alone is more than enough to protect their physical territorial borders from invasion by rogue states.

LOL

Nobody in their right minds is going to invade Russia, given their nuclear arsenal. That is plain fact.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

I am not arguing with what you say, yes Putin and Co are total bastards, but there are reasons for what they do and the West has painted a similar picture to your own, but Russia does not all wear black hats and the west does not all wear white hats. What ever way you look at it Russia would feel very threatened with NATO and America on their border and reasonably close to their capitol.

Russians who feel threatened by NATO only do so because they’ve been fed paranoid bullshit propaganda by their governments for generations.

Putin and his supporters are relics of the old military empire-building era, and that’s the only reason they fear the West. They want to build a brutal, repressive, anti-democratic empire because their primitive minds associate that with “greatness”.

Well I hope you don’t get some really nasty neighbors and I mean really nasty types and see if you then feel threatened. And they can be real or imagined as it is all in your mind.

This is what I mean about obvious bullshit.

It’s abundantly clear that the really, really nasty neighbour in that region is Russia, not the small independent countries striving for modern, democratic government for their people.

But I’ll leave the discussion there, since in your mind a homicidal maniac killing a harmless bystander is justified if he claims to feel “threatened”.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

sibeen said:

Nah, you’re just an annoying flog. Always have been. I generally ignore you, because you’re a cunt, but occasionally, like now, will butt into a conversation, just to say, dickhead.

A you are an uncouth ignorant prick with nothing but a very basic outlook on life. Anyway Despite your rudeness I do hope I offend you as that is one of my main aims.

You don’t offend me. To do that I’d have to give a single fuck about you. I just find you to be an obnoxious nothing.

Fuck off you silly prick and what makes you think your opinion is so important? What does your conversation consist of, beer and sport and when you venture far from those you are invariably wrong.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Realistically NATO (and to an lesser extent the EU) provides Russia with additional security. Under the NATO collective arrangement there is far less chance of a rogue state like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France rising up and invading Russisa. The collective framework would not allow it.

Russia’s security is not threatened because of the nuclear arsenal anyway. They don’t need to control vast areas of territory with conventional forces, political control, brutality and all the rest of it. If they had read your posts over the last hour or so they would realise that their nuclear arsenal alone is more than enough to protect their physical territorial borders from invasion by rogue states.

LOL

Nobody in their right minds is going to invade Russia, given their nuclear arsenal. That is plain fact.

Well don’t tell, convince the Russians of that and if I had people that were not friendly to me next door, I don’t think I or you would be very happy. Stop thinking what is right or wrong or is is morally right, as it is not the point.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Russians who feel threatened by NATO only do so because they’ve been fed paranoid bullshit propaganda by their governments for generations.

Putin and his supporters are relics of the old military empire-building era, and that’s the only reason they fear the West. They want to build a brutal, repressive, anti-democratic empire because their primitive minds associate that with “greatness”.

Well I hope you don’t get some really nasty neighbors and I mean really nasty types and see if you then feel threatened. And they can be real or imagined as it is all in your mind.

This is what I mean about obvious bullshit.

It’s abundantly clear that the really, really nasty neighbour in that region is Russia, not the small independent countries striving for modern, democratic government for their people.

But I’ll leave the discussion there, since in your mind a homicidal maniac killing a harmless bystander is justified if he claims to feel “threatened”.

Just go around in circles with you. I have long stopped trying to convince you of anything, because nobody can. My only hope that others with a more open might gain something from it.

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

LOL

Nobody in their right minds is going to invade Russia, given their nuclear arsenal. That is plain fact.

Well don’t tell, convince the Russians of that and if I had people that were not friendly to me next door, I don’t think I or you would be very happy. Stop thinking what is right or wrong or is is morally right, as it is not the point.

I don’t think that way personally. Reality is that Russia alone without the USSR or the Warsaw Pact is nothing. They rank about 9-11 on the global economic scale. Which is fuck all. They don’t have the resources to be a superpower in terms of economics. They are weak and need to be pushed back to their own borders. They can run whatever shitshow tyrannical serfdom they like within their own borders, but they must be pushed back to their own borders.

That is my personal view, but as mentioned earlier my personal view is out of step with the more cautious NATO and EU approach.

But the NATO and EU approach is grounded in some pretty clear reasoning. They don’t want to provoke Russia given their nuclear arsenal, but by the same token they will push as hard as they can against Russia. The harder they push the weaker Russia becomes and the stronger they get.

PermeateFree said:

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

A you are an uncouth ignorant prick with nothing but a very basic outlook on life. Anyway Despite your rudeness I do hope I offend you as that is one of my main aims.

You don’t offend me. To do that I’d have to give a single fuck about you. I just find you to be an obnoxious nothing.

Fuck off you silly prick and what makes you think your opinion is so important? What does your conversation consist of, beer and sport and when you venture far from those you are invariably wrong.

Oh, I don’t think my opinion is important at all – never have. But you’re an annoying cunt, on that there’s no doubt.

What does Russia have to fear from NATO and its fellow travellers?

Just ask the Iraqis and Afghanis

Remember WMDs , remember the THIRTY year war we’ve just finished fighting ??

At any rate, Holland has just been cut off

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

sibeen said:

You don’t offend me. To do that I’d have to give a single fuck about you. I just find you to be an obnoxious nothing.

Fuck off you silly prick and what makes you think your opinion is so important? What does your conversation consist of, beer and sport and when you venture far from those you are invariably wrong.

Oh, I don’t think my opinion is important at all – never have. But you’re an annoying cunt, on that there’s no doubt.

You really think you are it and a bit. What a conceited prick you are, but why should I be concerned about the likes of you who not only enjoy living in the gutter, but think it clever to do so.

party_pants said:

Realistically NATO (and to an lesser extent the EU) provides Russia with additional security. Under the NATO collective arrangement there is far less chance of a rogue state like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France rising up and invading Russisa. The collective framework would not allow it.

Russia’s security is not threatened because of the nuclear arsenal anyway. They don’t need to control vast areas of territory with conventional forces, political control, brutality and all the rest of it. If they had read your posts over the last hour or so they would realise that their nuclear arsenal alone is more than enough to protect their physical territorial borders from invasion by rogue states.

It’s more nuanced than that though. Turkey (a member of NATO) provided support to Azerbaijan in their 2020 war against Armenia in an attempt to marginalize Russian influence in that region. Together with Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia occupy an extremely important Russian defensive area at the Caucasus Mountains and so would have viewed the actions of Turkey as an aggressive NATO move against Russian defensive capabilities.

Russia is not as protected by it’s nukes as most people assume. MAD is not the only nuclear protocol that exists, and Russia is well aware of that.

there’s possibly an argument the present global environment (parts of, to the extent parts of can persist as parts of, are tolerated) is expressing some resistance to western cultural influence inclining cultural homogeneity across the planet

despite all the noises about diversity it probably is becoming more homogeneous, has become considerably same, converged

I mean it is an ideal device, hide a converging force in ideas of diversity

transition said:

there’s possibly an argument the present global environment (parts of, to the extent parts of can persist as parts of, are tolerated) is expressing some resistance to western cultural influence inclining cultural homogeneity across the planet

despite all the noises about diversity it probably is becoming more homogeneous, has become considerably same, converged

I mean it is an ideal device, hide a converging force in ideas of diversity

That’s a distinct possibility.

It works the other way, too. For instance, Mr. Putin began the conflict under discussion as a measure to have a somewhat more ‘eastern’ cultural homogeneity prevail in Ukraine, albeit by more rapid and less subtle means than those usually employed by ‘the west’.

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

there’s possibly an argument the present global environment (parts of, to the extent parts of can persist as parts of, are tolerated) is expressing some resistance to western cultural influence inclining cultural homogeneity across the planet

despite all the noises about diversity it probably is becoming more homogeneous, has become considerably same, converged

I mean it is an ideal device, hide a converging force in ideas of diversity

That’s a distinct possibility.

It works the other way, too. For instance, Mr. Putin began the conflict under discussion as a measure to have a somewhat more ‘eastern’ cultural homogeneity prevail in Ukraine, albeit by more rapid and less subtle means than those usually employed by ‘the west’.

I don’t see russian culture as all that different from so called western culture. sure if you go far enough east in russia you get some eastern culture but is that seen to be taken in by the western parts?

Boris said:

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

there’s possibly an argument the present global environment (parts of, to the extent parts of can persist as parts of, are tolerated) is expressing some resistance to western cultural influence inclining cultural homogeneity across the planet

despite all the noises about diversity it probably is becoming more homogeneous, has become considerably same, converged

I mean it is an ideal device, hide a converging force in ideas of diversity

That’s a distinct possibility.

It works the other way, too. For instance, Mr. Putin began the conflict under discussion as a measure to have a somewhat more ‘eastern’ cultural homogeneity prevail in Ukraine, albeit by more rapid and less subtle means than those usually employed by ‘the west’.

I don’t see russian culture as all that different from so called western culture. sure if you go far enough east in russia you get some eastern culture but is that seen to be taken in by the western parts?

No, it seems to be very similar to western/European culture, and, indeed, for a long part of its history, the leaders of Russia strived to make it as similar to Europe/the west as they could.

But, it’s a popular and enduring concept in the minds of Russians that, much as they admire and adopt a lot of western stuff, they’re ‘different’ and ‘not like the west’, and that’s an idea that can serve their government of the day very well on occasion.

captain_spalding said:

Boris said:

captain_spalding said:

That’s a distinct possibility.

It works the other way, too. For instance, Mr. Putin began the conflict under discussion as a measure to have a somewhat more ‘eastern’ cultural homogeneity prevail in Ukraine, albeit by more rapid and less subtle means than those usually employed by ‘the west’.

I don’t see russian culture as all that different from so called western culture. sure if you go far enough east in russia you get some eastern culture but is that seen to be taken in by the western parts?

No, it seems to be very similar to western/European culture, and, indeed, for a long part of its history, the leaders of Russia strived to make it as similar to Europe/the west as they could.

But, it’s a popular and enduring concept in the minds of Russians that, much as they admire and adopt a lot of western stuff, they’re ‘different’ and ‘not like the west’, and that’s an idea that can serve their government of the day very well on occasion.

I think Putin pines for the days of the empire of the USSR not the diminished nation it is now and thought Ukraine would be an easy target to help restore that empire.
I mean what does Russia or the previous USSR have to offer its people that is in anyway better than what is on offer from the West.
Large empires don’t work anyway become too big to maintain and rot from the inside out

Cymek said:

I think Putin pines for the days of the empire of the USSR not the diminished nation it is now and thought Ukraine would be an easy target to help restore that empire.
I mean what does Russia or the previous USSR have to offer its people that is in anyway better than what is on offer from the West.
Large empires don’t work anyway become too big to maintain and rot from the inside out

Perhaps Putin does resent the loss of empire, and doesn’t like the idea of former vassal states turning away from Russia and its inability to provide an economy and society that isn’t stagnant and making no progress at all, and where what benefits there are rarely filter down from the top strata.

If those states do well by looking to other models and influences, then it’s only going to fuel demands for similar from within Russia, which Putin and his friends are likely to be unwilling and unable to satisfy.

And the prestige. Overrunning a large neighbour with Western inclinations would have served as a warning that Russia should still be feared, play ball or this could happen to you, too. Despite protests that neighbours have nothing to fear from Russia and there’s no need to join NATO, they didn’t want to not be seen as a threat as well.

Putin no doubt also had an eye on Ukraine’s resources, agriculture, and industry, too.

These would have been ‘appropriated’ to boost a larger Russian economy, and would have provided a whole new set of valuables for Putin to distribute amongst his oligarchic associates, and so ensure their support for his position.

A rapid over-run, with minimal destruction to infrastructure and agriculture would be key to his goals, but it hasn’t worked out that way. Desirable assets like the Azovstal steel works are in ruins, as are whole cities that would have operated to serve the assets that Russia acquired in the conquest.

The larger part of Ukraine remains out of the reach of the Russians, and much of what they might obtain is ruined, so their invasion has failed completely on some of its key aims.

It says a lot about food distribution in the world were Ukrainian grain not being exported could result in the starvation of millions.
Grain on it’s own isn’t exactly an exciting or nutritious meal either

captain_spalding said:

Boris said:

captain_spalding said:

That’s a distinct possibility.

It works the other way, too. For instance, Mr. Putin began the conflict under discussion as a measure to have a somewhat more ‘eastern’ cultural homogeneity prevail in Ukraine, albeit by more rapid and less subtle means than those usually employed by ‘the west’.

I don’t see russian culture as all that different from so called western culture. sure if you go far enough east in russia you get some eastern culture but is that seen to be taken in by the western parts?

No, it seems to be very similar to western/European culture, and, indeed, for a long part of its history, the leaders of Russia strived to make it as similar to Europe/the west as they could.

But, it’s a popular and enduring concept in the minds of Russians that, much as they admire and adopt a lot of western stuff, they’re ‘different’ and ‘not like the west’, and that’s an idea that can serve their government of the day very well on occasion.

that seems normative, as if a conception intending or inclining convergence

you’ve used ‘different’ there without any detail how you’ve used it, I can only assume that’s a disparaging or contemptuous use of the concept, which probably brushes over even modest difference, or divergence, and i’d suggest it is the modest differences that are possibly most important

i’d need think about it more

Cymek said:

It says a lot about food distribution in the world were Ukrainian grain not being exported could result in the starvation of millions.
Grain on it’s own isn’t exactly an exciting or nutritious meal either

ah another anti globalism protectionist

SCIENCE said:

Cymek said:

It says a lot about food distribution in the world were Ukrainian grain not being exported could result in the starvation of millions.
Grain on it’s own isn’t exactly an exciting or nutritious meal either

ah another anti globalism protectionist

One problem is that there is a lot of reasonable grain-growing territory that is instead being used for cash crops so they can service their debts: coffee, cocoa, cotton, tobacco. They typically pay more per hectare that essential food crops.

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

Cymek said:

It says a lot about food distribution in the world were Ukrainian grain not being exported could result in the starvation of millions.
Grain on it’s own isn’t exactly an exciting or nutritious meal either

ah another anti globalism protectionist

One problem is that there is a lot of reasonable grain-growing territory that is instead being used for cash crops so they can service their debts: coffee, cocoa, cotton, tobacco. They typically pay more per hectare that essential food crops.

That is true but I was thinking that grain is considered for many people as the main part of their diet.
So you’ve got people whilst not starving having malnutrition plus a very uninteresting bland diet

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

dv said:

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

Good for them. It will be a serious boost – the is a GPS and an INS guided version of this system. They have a fair degree of accuracy.

BTW – Australia has applied/ask the USA for an export licence for this same weapons system on just a few weeks ago. If Ukraine get this thing it will be well before most other allies and NATO members get it.

party_pants said:

dv said:

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

Good for them. It will be a serious boost – the is a GPS and an INS guided version of this system. They have a fair degree of accuracy.

BTW – Australia has applied/ask the USA for an export licence for this same weapons system on just a few weeks ago. If Ukraine get this thing it will be well before most other allies and NATO members get it.

Goodo.

party_pants said:

dv said:

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

Good for them. It will be a serious boost – the is a GPS and an INS guided version of this system. They have a fair degree of accuracy.

BTW – Australia has applied/ask the USA for an export licence for this same weapons system on just a few weeks ago. If Ukraine get this thing it will be well before most other allies and NATO members get it.

Sorry – that was a terrible rewrite and edit on the fly, with post before proof-read. Adjust spelling as grammar as required to make sense of it.

dv said:

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

The Ukes had to guarantee that they would not use them on targets within Russia though.

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

The Ukes had to guarantee that they would not use them on targets within Russia though.

Its a war

Why shouldn’t ukraine not fire missiles into Russia?

wookiemeister said:

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Senior US administration officials confirmed to reporters on Tuesday that the United States will be sending Ukraine US-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS, as part of the country’s 11th package of security assistance to Ukraine. 

The officials said the HIMARS will be equipped with munitions that will allow Ukraine to launch rockets about 80 kilometers (49 miles).

The Ukes had to guarantee that they would not use them on targets within Russia though.

Its a war

Why shouldn’t ukraine not fire missiles into Russia?

because that would mean that Russia would get pissed off, and they’d probably fund Essendon and Collingwood with their secret slush fund so they’d dominate the AFL, and that would piss of me, sibeen and Woodie; and you wouldn’t want that to happen unless you were a complete cunt.

Danes vote on Wednesday to decide whether to join the European Union’s defense policy, potentially becoming the final hold-out in the bloc to sign up as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine forces countries to radically reassess their security.

Denmark is the only member of the 27 nation bloc that is not a part of its Common Security and Defense Policy. The Scandinavian nation of nearly 6 million secured exemptions to that policy in a 1993 referendum on the Maastricht Treaty, which laid the groundwork for the modern EU.
If the notoriously EU-critical Danes vote to abolish the opt-out, as polls suggest will be the case, it would mark another important symbolic shift in defense policy for Europen states after Russia launched the invasion in February. After decades of holding out, Finland and Sweden finally applied to join NATO in May, each citing the war in Ukraine as a motivating factor.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/01/europe/denmark-eu-defense-policy-intl/index.html

so basically it’s a proxy war after all

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/arts/russia-ukraine-muratov-nobel.html

After winning the Nobel Peace Prize last October, the Russian journalist Dmitri A. Muratov said he thought the honor should have gone to a different Russian: the jailed opposition leader Aleksei A. Navalny.

Mr. Muratov, the editor of the independent newspaper Novaya Gazeta (who shared the prize with the journalist Maria Ressa of Rappler, a news outlet in the Philippines), later announced that he would donate his roughly $500,000 in prize money to support various charitable causes.

And now, Mr. Muratov — whose paper suspended publication in late March, saying Russia’s increasingly draconian press laws made it impossible to truthfully cover the war in Ukraine — is giving away the 23-karat gold Nobel medal itself.

On June 20, the medal will be sold in New York by Heritage Auctions. All proceeds will go to UNICEF, to help children who are refugees from Ukraine.

Dark Orange said:

On June 20, the medal will be sold in New York by Heritage Auctions. All proceeds will go to UNICEF, to help children who are refugees from Ukraine.

Regrettably, all proceeds will more likely go to UNICEF’s ‘operating expenses’. Gravy trains cost a bit to run, you know.

captain_spalding said:

Dark Orange said:

On June 20, the medal will be sold in New York by Heritage Auctions. All proceeds will go to UNICEF, to help children who are refugees from Ukraine.

Regrettably, all proceeds will more likely go to UNICEF’s ‘operating expenses’. Gravy trains cost a bit to run, you know.

So you’re quite familiar with UNICEF’s internal workings?

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Dark Orange said:

On June 20, the medal will be sold in New York by Heritage Auctions. All proceeds will go to UNICEF, to help children who are refugees from Ukraine.

Regrettably, all proceeds will more likely go to UNICEF’s ‘operating expenses’. Gravy trains cost a bit to run, you know.

So you’re quite familiar with UNICEF’s internal workings?

maybe he’s familiar with humans and their behaviour in organisations

SCIENCE said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Regrettably, all proceeds will more likely go to UNICEF’s ‘operating expenses’. Gravy trains cost a bit to run, you know.

So you’re quite familiar with UNICEF’s internal workings?

maybe he’s familiar with humans and their behaviour in organisations

Yeah. He’s very familiar with ALL the arseholes in QLD public health. Not a good’un among them.

UNICEF were caught out trying to play politics in the UK.

Witty Rejoinder said:

SCIENCE said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

So you’re quite familiar with UNICEF’s internal workings?

maybe he’s familiar with humans and their behaviour in organisations

Yeah. He’s very familiar with ALL the arseholes in QLD public health. Not a good’un among them.

I did once meet some UNICEF workers ‘in the field’.

The had some nice vehicles to get about in to perform their admirable work.

But, they had no fuel to put in them. They’d been told that ‘there’s no money’ for fuel and the delivery of fuel. There had been money, but it had been diverted to ‘higher priority operations’.

According to the UNICEF folks, this was UN-speak for ‘pissed up against the wall in New York’. They had a lot to say about New York. A great deal, indeed.

But maybe things are better now.

captain_spalding said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

SCIENCE said:

maybe he’s familiar with humans and their behaviour in organisations

Yeah. He’s very familiar with ALL the arseholes in QLD public health. Not a good’un among them.

I did once meet some UNICEF workers ‘in the field’.

The had some nice vehicles to get about in to perform their admirable work.

But, they had no fuel to put in them. They’d been told that ‘there’s no money’ for fuel and the delivery of fuel. There had been money, but it had been diverted to ‘higher priority operations’.

According to the UNICEF folks, this was UN-speak for ‘pissed up against the wall in New York’. They had a lot to say about New York. A great deal, indeed.

But maybe things are better now.

Likely I reckon the world is improving in leaps and bounds everyday.

Cymek said:

captain_spalding said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Yeah. He’s very familiar with ALL the arseholes in QLD public health. Not a good’un among them.

I did once meet some UNICEF workers ‘in the field’.

The had some nice vehicles to get about in to perform their admirable work.

But, they had no fuel to put in them. They’d been told that ‘there’s no money’ for fuel and the delivery of fuel. There had been money, but it had been diverted to ‘higher priority operations’.

According to the UNICEF folks, this was UN-speak for ‘pissed up against the wall in New York’. They had a lot to say about New York. A great deal, indeed.

But maybe things are better now.

Likely I reckon the world is improving in leaps and bounds everyday.

Betterer and betterer.

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-putin-treated-cancer-april-us-intelligence-report-says-1710357

The classified U.S. report says Putin seems to have re-emerged after undergoing treatment in April for advanced cancer, three U.S. intelligence leaders who have read the reports tell Newsweek.

The assessments also confirm that there was an assassination attempt on Putin’s life in March, the officials say.

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

The surrender monkey speaks.

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

Macron is a moron.

party_pants said:

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

Perhaps like Israel did to Syria, where Israel took over the area of Syria(Golan Heights) that was a threat, and established a new border inside their existing one.

party_pants said:

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

I would keep all sanctions in place, and strengthen them, until:

a) Russia withdraws from all Ukrainian territory.
b) Russia hands over all war criminals, including Putin and his enablers.
c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

Bubblecar said:

c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

to highest bidder or whom

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

I would keep all sanctions in place, and strengthen them, until:

a) Russia withdraws from all Ukrainian territory.
b) Russia hands over all war criminals, including Putin and his enablers.
c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

a) possible
b) russia hands over war criminals but not putin
C) not likely.

Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

I would keep all sanctions in place, and strengthen them, until:

a) Russia withdraws from all Ukrainian territory.
b) Russia hands over all war criminals, including Putin and his enablers.
c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

a) possible
b) russia hands over war criminals but not putin
C) not likely.

we mean as far as (a) the point is that they aren’t on Ukrainian territory right

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

dv said:

https://youtu.be/8eiVQ6wTMoI
Ukraine recaptures territory in Severodonetsk

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-says-russia-suffering-huge-casualties-in-sievierodonetsk-as-it-happened/a-62031616

The local governor says Ukraine has “pushed back” Russian forces in the fight for the key Donbas city. Meanwhile, a top official has speculated that the war might last several more months.

—-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/russia-must-not-be-humiliated-ukraine-emmanuel-macron

Russia must not be humiliated in Ukraine, says Emmanuel Macron

—-

IDK if that should be the focus.

French president says door must be left open to allow for improvement in diplomatic relations after war

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

I would keep all sanctions in place, and strengthen them, until:

a) Russia withdraws from all Ukrainian territory.
b) Russia hands over all war criminals, including Putin and his enablers.
c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

a) For sure.
b) Unlikely to happen, but worth a try.
c) Not gonna happen. They assume that everyone else will do what they do, i.e. If you don’t have nukes, you are helpless and will be invaded, murdered and taken over.

Irony so thick you can carve it…

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1533068640270139392

“Russia accuses Ukraine of attacking its borderline Bryansk Oblast, reports casualties.

Local Governor Alexander Bogomaz accused Ukraine of attacking the village of Sluchovsk, claiming that one person was injured. Ukraine hasn’t yet responded to the recent accusation.”

Kingy said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Seems a bit pointless. Russia should not emerge out of this in a strengthened position. They should emerge weaker and no longer considered a great power.

I would keep all sanctions in place, and strengthen them, until:

a) Russia withdraws from all Ukrainian territory.
b) Russia hands over all war criminals, including Putin and his enablers.
c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

a) For sure.
b) Unlikely to happen, but worth a try.
c) Not gonna happen. They assume that everyone else will do what they do, i.e. If you don’t have nukes, you are helpless and will be invaded, murdered and taken over.

Then they stay on increasingly toughened sanctions indefinitely.

SCIENCE said:

Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

I would keep all sanctions in place, and strengthen them, until:

a) Russia withdraws from all Ukrainian territory.
b) Russia hands over all war criminals, including Putin and his enablers.
c) Russia forfeits all nuclear weapons.

a) possible
b) russia hands over war criminals but not putin
C) not likely.

we mean as far as (a) the point is that they aren’t on Ukrainian territory right

Even the bits they claim are Russian.

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

not much time for evasive maneuvers, and thank god I had spell check to spell maneuvers

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

I’m surprised that the missile is leaving a nice solid line of smoke behind it.
Just drop some bombs where the smoke trail starts.

Spiny Norman said:

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

I’m surprised that the missile is leaving a nice solid line of smoke behind it.
Just drop some bombs where the smoke trail starts.

As i’ve said before, there’s a list of things to do after launching such a missile:

1. Piss off, quick

(it’s a very short list.)

Spiny Norman said:

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

I’m surprised that the missile is leaving a nice solid line of smoke behind it.
Just drop some bombs where the smoke trail starts.

The comments suggest that the drone had just guided some artillery onto a munitions dump, so there is a good chance the operators were in a position to do exactly that.

transition said:

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

not much time for evasive maneuvers, and thank god I had spell check to spell maneuvers

I’ve read accounts by American pilots, flying over North Vietnam and seeing SA-2 ‘Guideline’ missiles launched at them.

More than one described them as ‘like telephone poles rocketing up towards you’.

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

Like this comment..

“Yep, one cheap drone for a well spotted massive artillery strike. I’m surprised the Russians didn’t launch a conscript at the drone with a trebuchet, the next logical step for a country that doesn’t value lives.”

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

Dark Orange said:

This is what a SAM looks like from the receiving end.

https://twitter.com/gemasuria/status/1533274211405692928

not much time for evasive maneuvers, and thank god I had spell check to spell maneuvers

I’ve read accounts by American pilots, flying over North Vietnam and seeing SA-2 ‘Guideline’ missiles launched at them.

More than one described them as ‘like telephone poles rocketing up towards you’.

I borrowed a book like that off a mate of mine in the 90’s, and the Phantom pilot that got shot down said exactly that. I wish I could remember what the name of the book was, it was a great read.

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

not much time for evasive maneuvers, and thank god I had spell check to spell maneuvers

I’ve read accounts by American pilots, flying over North Vietnam and seeing SA-2 ‘Guideline’ missiles launched at them.

More than one described them as ‘like telephone poles rocketing up towards you’.

I borrowed a book like that off a mate of mine in the 90’s, and the Phantom pilot that got shot down said exactly that. I wish I could remember what the name of the book was, it was a great read.

Could it have been Tom Wolfe’s 1975 short story/article ‘The Truest Sport: Jousting with Sam and Charlie’ ?

captain_spalding said:

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

I’ve read accounts by American pilots, flying over North Vietnam and seeing SA-2 ‘Guideline’ missiles launched at them.

More than one described them as ‘like telephone poles rocketing up towards you’.

I borrowed a book like that off a mate of mine in the 90’s, and the Phantom pilot that got shot down said exactly that. I wish I could remember what the name of the book was, it was a great read.

Could it have been Tom Wolfe’s 1975 short story/article ‘The Truest Sport: Jousting with Sam and Charlie’ ?

Nope. It was an autobiography of a US fighter pilot in the Vietnam war.

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

Spiny Norman said:

I borrowed a book like that off a mate of mine in the 90’s, and the Phantom pilot that got shot down said exactly that. I wish I could remember what the name of the book was, it was a great read.

Could it have been Tom Wolfe’s 1975 short story/article ‘The Truest Sport: Jousting with Sam and Charlie’ ?

Nope. It was an autobiography of a US fighter pilot in the Vietnam war.

Another good one to read is Chickenhawk, by Bob Mason.

Spiny Norman said:

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

Could it have been Tom Wolfe’s 1975 short story/article ‘The Truest Sport: Jousting with Sam and Charlie’ ?

Nope. It was an autobiography of a US fighter pilot in the Vietnam war.

Another good one to read is Chickenhawk, by Bob Mason.

Read that. Sometimes made me feel like i was in a UH-1 again.

captain_spalding said:

Spiny Norman said:

Spiny Norman said:

Nope. It was an autobiography of a US fighter pilot in the Vietnam war.

Another good one to read is Chickenhawk, by Bob Mason.

Read that. Sometimes made me feel like i was in a UH-1 again.

How about the fictional series by Mark Berent? A damn good read.

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

Spiny Norman said:

Another good one to read is Chickenhawk, by Bob Mason.

Read that. Sometimes made me feel like i was in a UH-1 again.

How about the fictional series by Mark Berent? A damn good read.

Nope, none of those.

captain_spalding said:

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

Read that. Sometimes made me feel like i was in a UH-1 again.

How about the fictional series by Mark Berent? A damn good read.

Nope, none of those.

It’s a fictional series, but extremely real.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21912494-rolling-thunder

Spiny Norman said:

captain_spalding said:

Spiny Norman said:

How about the fictional series by Mark Berent? A damn good read.

Nope, none of those.

It’s a fictional series, but extremely real.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21912494-rolling-thunder

I’ll keep it in mind, thanks, but i very rarely read fiction.

What’s the collective noun for a group of Russian Generals?

A Graveyard.

“Russian Major General Roman Kutuzov was killed in the Donbas reportedly in Mykolaivka near Popasna. Different sources claim he was the commander of Russia’s 5th Combined Arms Army or the DNR’s 1st Army Corps.”

Dark Orange said:

What’s the collective noun for a group of Russian Generals?

A Graveyard.

“Russian Major General Roman Kutuzov was killed in the Donbas reportedly in Mykolaivka near Popasna. Different sources claim he was the commander of Russia’s 5th Combined Arms Army or the DNR’s 1st Army Corps.”

The Ukes should strop killing the obviously incompetent generals before a sergeant gets promoted to general. They are the only rank who knows how to fight a war.

The Russians are hitting Kyiv with cruise missiles fired from vessels on the Black Sea.

That and much more here:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

There is video footage floating around of what is likely a Ukrainian SU-25 being shot down. :(

Michael V said:

The Russians are hitting Kyiv with cruise missiles fired from vessels on the Black Sea.

That and much more here:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

Perfect opportunity for NATO submarines to get involved without much public sttention. Ukraine could claim them as anti-ship missile strikes.

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

The Russians are hitting Kyiv with cruise missiles fired from vessels on the Black Sea.

That and much more here:

https://kyivindependent.com/news-archive/

Perfect opportunity for NATO submarines to get involved without much public sttention. Ukraine could claim them as anti-ship missile strikes.

The Russians probably just found some cruise missiles in a disused warehouse somewhere and got a little too excited. That’s probably the last of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61701055
Ukraine war: UK to send Ukraine M270 multiple-launch rocket systems

The UK is sending its first long-range missiles to Ukraine, the defence secretary has said, despite a threat from Russia to the West.

Start educating yourself about how and why this war started.

I still put my money on the red army

wookiemeister said:

I still put my money on the red army

I think that hasn’t existed since 1946

wookiemeister said:

I still put my money on the red army

I don’t know that i’d put money on them, but there’s saying that Russia is never as strong as it appears to be, or as weak as it appears to be.

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

I still put my money on the red army

I think that hasn’t existed since 1946

I’m putting a point across

Keep messing with Russia by all means

wookiemeister said:

Start educating yourself about how and why this war started.

I’m too busy with a youtube channel called ‘All Russian Media is Utter Bullshit’ to watch RT.

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

first bump elbow tap

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

first bump elbow tap

shirtfront.

Boris said:

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

first bump elbow tap

shirtfront.

SCIENCE said:

Boris said:

SCIENCE said:

first bump elbow tap

shirtfront.

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

All of them, possibly.

I hear that Amazon has received an order for nearly twenty ‘joy buzzers’.

captain_spalding said:

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

All of them, possibly.

I hear that Amazon has received an order for nearly twenty ‘joy buzzers’.

what’s a joy buzzer, captain

Boris said:

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

first bump elbow tap

shirtfront.

LOL

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

All of them, possibly.

I hear that Amazon has received an order for nearly twenty ‘joy buzzers’.

what’s a joy buzzer, captain

Wikipedia: “A joy buzzer (also called a hand buzzer) is a practical joke device that consists of a coiled spring inside a disc worn in the palm of the hand. When the wearer shakes hands with another person, a button on the disc releases the spring, which rapidly unwinds creating a vibration that feels somewhat like an electric shock to someone not expecting it.”

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

All of them, possibly.

I hear that Amazon has received an order for nearly twenty ‘joy buzzers’.

what’s a joy buzzer, captain

Wikipedia: “A joy buzzer (also called a hand buzzer) is a practical joke device that consists of a coiled spring inside a disc worn in the palm of the hand. When the wearer shakes hands with another person, a button on the disc releases the spring, which rapidly unwinds creating a vibration that feels somewhat like an electric shock to someone not expecting it.”

learning things today, cheers

dv said:

Of the other 19, I wonder who is going to shake Putin’s hand at the G20

I doubt he will be there.

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

what’s a joy buzzer, captain

Wikipedia: “A joy buzzer (also called a hand buzzer) is a practical joke device that consists of a coiled spring inside a disc worn in the palm of the hand. When the wearer shakes hands with another person, a button on the disc releases the spring, which rapidly unwinds creating a vibration that feels somewhat like an electric shock to someone not expecting it.”

learning things today, cheers

Kids these days.

Dark Orange said:

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

Wikipedia: “A joy buzzer (also called a hand buzzer) is a practical joke device that consists of a coiled spring inside a disc worn in the palm of the hand. When the wearer shakes hands with another person, a button on the disc releases the spring, which rapidly unwinds creating a vibration that feels somewhat like an electric shock to someone not expecting it.”

learning things today, cheers

Kids these days.

Invented 1928.

Kids those days.

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

All of them, possibly.

I hear that Amazon has received an order for nearly twenty ‘joy buzzers’.

what’s a joy buzzer, captain

Wikipedia: “A joy buzzer (also called a hand buzzer) is a practical joke device that consists of a coiled spring inside a disc worn in the palm of the hand. When the wearer shakes hands with another person, a button on the disc releases the spring, which rapidly unwinds creating a vibration that feels somewhat like an electric shock to someone not expecting it.”

since we have it ready anyway

propaganda

SCIENCE said:

propaganda

plenty that, doubt any reason to think the more liberal countries operate without it (perhaps especially when acting jointly), the hoodoo to shape how whatever is perceived, no less so modern times, there may have been a time civilian cultures weren’t so irretrievably corrupted, before the global homogenization

It is looking like that Ukrainian SU-27P that was shot down earlier today may have been as a result of friendly fire. :(

Some smart thinking about the Ukraine situation. A little over 3 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajeERtYSN28&ab_channel=JohnMearsheimer

The Russians have lost almost as many lieutenant and major generals to enemy action than the Commonwealth lost in the entirety of the second world war.

why lump intelligence in with emotions and not only that, a bunch of otherwise shitty ones

like, wtf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-07/russia-ukraine-war-100-days-lessons-brutal-invasion/101129326

war is a human, not technological, endeavour. The decisions to go to war are made by humans. In doing so, these humans demonstrate a range of emotions including hubris, intelligence, stupidity, arrogance, aggression and cowardice. No machine can inspire a nation or assemble an international coalition of supporters. And no AI can hold a soldier’s hand to comfort them while dying

SCIENCE said:

why lump intelligence in with emotions and not only that, a bunch of otherwise shitty ones

like, wtf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-07/russia-ukraine-war-100-days-lessons-brutal-invasion/101129326

war is a human, not technological, endeavour. The decisions to go to war are made by humans. In doing so, these humans demonstrate a range of emotions including hubris, intelligence, stupidity, arrogance, aggression and cowardice. No machine can inspire a nation or assemble an international coalition of supporters. And no AI can hold a soldier’s hand to comfort them while dying

Technology can offer more comfort than people, alleviates loneliness

SCIENCE said:

why lump intelligence in with emotions and not only that, a bunch of otherwise shitty ones

like, wtf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-07/russia-ukraine-war-100-days-lessons-brutal-invasion/101129326

war is a human, not technological, endeavour. The decisions to go to war are made by humans. In doing so, these humans demonstrate a range of emotions including hubris, intelligence, stupidity, arrogance, aggression and cowardice. No machine can inspire a nation or assemble an international coalition of supporters. And no AI can hold a soldier’s hand to comfort them while dying

i’d reckon most people would have a good chance of picking any nonsense rhetoric from something that could be a starting point for looking for useful facts in that, and I mean a starting point for looking, start with the anomalous and make something up from what is likely of this world, the world of things that really exist and are likely

you could start with is 100 a significant number at all – 100 days – of course you might similarly apply it of 73 days, 103 days, or even add half days, and i’d expect the rest of the page has a similar flavor

what isn’t said is that AI is being used in a war of sorts, and it’s contributed massively to global debt, and you might ask who is going to reconcile the global accounts, what incentive is there to reconcile the global accounts, when there is so much fluid disloyalty dissolving countries inclination to do that

remember money has no memory, no conscience, no morality, large part of its utility is in exactly that, it lends to a fluid disloyalty, especially the global dynamic of the scale that has emerged

just my opinion above is all, suggesting a possible backdrop to the distractions on your TVs etc

transition said:

SCIENCE said:

why lump intelligence in with emotions and not only that, a bunch of otherwise shitty ones

like, wtf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-07/russia-ukraine-war-100-days-lessons-brutal-invasion/101129326

war is a human, not technological, endeavour. The decisions to go to war are made by humans. In doing so, these humans demonstrate a range of emotions including hubris, intelligence, stupidity, arrogance, aggression and cowardice. No machine can inspire a nation or assemble an international coalition of supporters. And no AI can hold a soldier’s hand to comfort them while dying

i’d reckon most people would have a good chance of picking any nonsense rhetoric from something that could be a starting point for looking for useful facts in that, and I mean a starting point for looking, start with the anomalous and make something up from what is likely of this world, the world of things that really exist and are likely

you could start with is 100 a significant number at all – 100 days – of course you might similarly apply it of 73 days, 103 days, or even add half days, and i’d expect the rest of the page has a similar flavor

what isn’t said is that AI is being used in a war of sorts, and it’s contributed massively to global debt, and you might ask who is going to reconcile the global accounts, what incentive is there to reconcile the global accounts, when there is so much fluid disloyalty dissolving countries inclination to do that

remember money has no memory, no conscience, no morality, large part of its utility is in exactly that, it lends to a fluid disloyalty, especially the global dynamic of the scale that has emerged

just my opinion above is all, suggesting a possible backdrop to the distractions on your TVs etc

Maybe money has memory the same way naturopathists think water has a memory

dv said:

transition said:

SCIENCE said:

why lump intelligence in with emotions and not only that, a bunch of otherwise shitty ones

like, wtf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-07/russia-ukraine-war-100-days-lessons-brutal-invasion/101129326

war is a human, not technological, endeavour. The decisions to go to war are made by humans. In doing so, these humans demonstrate a range of emotions including hubris, intelligence, stupidity, arrogance, aggression and cowardice. No machine can inspire a nation or assemble an international coalition of supporters. And no AI can hold a soldier’s hand to comfort them while dying

i’d reckon most people would have a good chance of picking any nonsense rhetoric from something that could be a starting point for looking for useful facts in that, and I mean a starting point for looking, start with the anomalous and make something up from what is likely of this world, the world of things that really exist and are likely

you could start with is 100 a significant number at all – 100 days – of course you might similarly apply it of 73 days, 103 days, or even add half days, and i’d expect the rest of the page has a similar flavor

what isn’t said is that AI is being used in a war of sorts, and it’s contributed massively to global debt, and you might ask who is going to reconcile the global accounts, what incentive is there to reconcile the global accounts, when there is so much fluid disloyalty dissolving countries inclination to do that

remember money has no memory, no conscience, no morality, large part of its utility is in exactly that, it lends to a fluid disloyalty, especially the global dynamic of the scale that has emerged

just my opinion above is all, suggesting a possible backdrop to the distractions on your TVs etc

Maybe money has memory the same way naturopathists think water has a memory

maybe you had half a thought, you could complete the thought, or have another thought, then report back

transition said:

dv said:

transition said:

i’d reckon most people would have a good chance of picking any nonsense rhetoric from something that could be a starting point for looking for useful facts in that, and I mean a starting point for looking, start with the anomalous and make something up from what is likely of this world, the world of things that really exist and are likely

you could start with is 100 a significant number at all – 100 days – of course you might similarly apply it of 73 days, 103 days, or even add half days, and i’d expect the rest of the page has a similar flavor

what isn’t said is that AI is being used in a war of sorts, and it’s contributed massively to global debt, and you might ask who is going to reconcile the global accounts, what incentive is there to reconcile the global accounts, when there is so much fluid disloyalty dissolving countries inclination to do that

remember money has no memory, no conscience, no morality, large part of its utility is in exactly that, it lends to a fluid disloyalty, especially the global dynamic of the scale that has emerged

just my opinion above is all, suggesting a possible backdrop to the distractions on your TVs etc

Maybe money has memory the same way naturopathists think water has a memory

maybe you had half a thought, you could complete the thought, or have another thought, then report back

that was a bit rude, I take that back, apologize also, I do

transition said:

dv said:

transition said:

i’d reckon most people would have a good chance of picking any nonsense rhetoric from something that could be a starting point for looking for useful facts in that, and I mean a starting point for looking, start with the anomalous and make something up from what is likely of this world, the world of things that really exist and are likely

you could start with is 100 a significant number at all – 100 days – of course you might similarly apply it of 73 days, 103 days, or even add half days, and i’d expect the rest of the page has a similar flavor

what isn’t said is that AI is being used in a war of sorts, and it’s contributed massively to global debt, and you might ask who is going to reconcile the global accounts, what incentive is there to reconcile the global accounts, when there is so much fluid disloyalty dissolving countries inclination to do that

remember money has no memory, no conscience, no morality, large part of its utility is in exactly that, it lends to a fluid disloyalty, especially the global dynamic of the scale that has emerged

just my opinion above is all, suggesting a possible backdrop to the distractions on your TVs etc

Maybe money has memory the same way naturopathists think water has a memory

maybe you had half a thought, you could complete the thought, or have another thought, then report back

I thought thought has memory.