My December edition of Scientific American arrived this week. All of the ones for this year have already arrived – the postie thinks the December one must have come by boat…

Anyway, there is a piece on solar superflares, which is a pay to read thing. However, this article about it on EarthSky is based on the SciAm one anyway. A superflare could do a lot of damage to communications here.

https://earthsky.org/earth/solar-superflares-tree-rings/

buffy said:

My December edition of Scientific American arrived this week. All of the ones for this year have already arrived – the postie thinks the December one must have come by boat…

Anyway, there is a piece on solar superflares, which is a pay to read thing. However, this article about it on EarthSky is based on the SciAm one anyway. A superflare could do a lot of damage to communications here.

https://earthsky.org/earth/solar-superflares-tree-rings/

> the scientists look for beryllium 10 and chlorine 36 as signatures of solar flares

Does it say why?

mollwollfumble said:

buffy said:

My December edition of Scientific American arrived this week. All of the ones for this year have already arrived – the postie thinks the December one must have come by boat…

Anyway, there is a piece on solar superflares, which is a pay to read thing. However, this article about it on EarthSky is based on the SciAm one anyway. A superflare could do a lot of damage to communications here.

https://earthsky.org/earth/solar-superflares-tree-rings/

> the scientists look for beryllium 10 and chlorine 36 as signatures of solar flares

Does it say why?

Those ones were in ice cores. Here you go, here is the latest paper by the author mentioned in the SciAm article (and it’s open access!).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-28804-9

The latest New Scientist has a piece on the danger of solar flares as well.

My question is, if the danger of these things is known, and has been for a long time, why is there no equipment in place to moniter surges in power lines, and do whatever needs doing to prevent major damage?

Glares in the direction of sibeen.

The Rev Dodgson said:

The latest New Scientist has a piece on the danger of solar flares as well.

My question is, if the danger of these things is known, and has been for a long time, why is there no equipment in place to moniter surges in power lines, and do whatever needs doing to prevent major damage?

Glares in the direction of sibeen.

There is.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The latest New Scientist has a piece on the danger of solar flares as well.

My question is, if the danger of these things is known, and has been for a long time, why is there no equipment in place to moniter surges in power lines, and do whatever needs doing to prevent major damage?

Glares in the direction of sibeen.

There is.

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The latest New Scientist has a piece on the danger of solar flares as well.

My question is, if the danger of these things is known, and has been for a long time, why is there no equipment in place to moniter surges in power lines, and do whatever needs doing to prevent major damage?

Glares in the direction of sibeen.

There is.

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

No one really knows how bad they’ll be until they get here.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The latest New Scientist has a piece on the danger of solar flares as well.

My question is, if the danger of these things is known, and has been for a long time, why is there no equipment in place to moniter surges in power lines, and do whatever needs doing to prevent major damage?

Glares in the direction of sibeen.

There is.

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

It’s a bit from columns a, b & c.

The real big transformers and lines are going to be fairly well protected, at least those that have modern protection relays installed. “Protection relay” is in some ways a fairly non-descriptive term which is a carry over from the old mechanical days. Now days it is basically a microprocessor based system which monitors all the system variables and will send a trip command to open up the associated circuit breakers. These things are now very ‘smart’ and in a situation like this would be able to trip on a second harmonic limit or negative sequence limit quite quickly and protect the associated infrastructure.

Smaller infrastructure like street pole mounted transformers don’t come with these fancy bells and whistles. The protection for them is a simple fuse and under a reasonable DC current into the transformer won’t trip even though the transformer is being cooked. So it depends upon the severity of the solar storm and your latitude and how well your infrastructure has been set up.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

There is.

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

It’s a bit from columns a, b & c.

The real big transformers and lines are going to be fairly well protected, at least those that have modern protection relays installed. “Protection relay” is in some ways a fairly non-descriptive term which is a carry over from the old mechanical days. Now days it is basically a microprocessor based system which monitors all the system variables and will send a trip command to open up the associated circuit breakers. These things are now very ‘smart’ and in a situation like this would be able to trip on a second harmonic limit or negative sequence limit quite quickly and protect the associated infrastructure.

Smaller infrastructure like street pole mounted transformers don’t come with these fancy bells and whistles. The protection for them is a simple fuse and under a reasonable DC current into the transformer won’t trip even though the transformer is being cooked. So it depends upon the severity of the solar storm and your latitude and how well your infrastructure has been set up.

And what about the satellites? They cop it before it hits the planet.

buffy said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

It’s a bit from columns a, b & c.

The real big transformers and lines are going to be fairly well protected, at least those that have modern protection relays installed. “Protection relay” is in some ways a fairly non-descriptive term which is a carry over from the old mechanical days. Now days it is basically a microprocessor based system which monitors all the system variables and will send a trip command to open up the associated circuit breakers. These things are now very ‘smart’ and in a situation like this would be able to trip on a second harmonic limit or negative sequence limit quite quickly and protect the associated infrastructure.

Smaller infrastructure like street pole mounted transformers don’t come with these fancy bells and whistles. The protection for them is a simple fuse and under a reasonable DC current into the transformer won’t trip even though the transformer is being cooked. So it depends upon the severity of the solar storm and your latitude and how well your infrastructure has been set up.

And what about the satellites? They cop it before it hits the planet.

I have no idea.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The latest New Scientist has a piece on the danger of solar flares as well.

My question is, if the danger of these things is known, and has been for a long time, why is there no equipment in place to moniter surges in power lines, and do whatever needs doing to prevent major damage?

Glares in the direction of sibeen.

There is.

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

There have been many solar storms that have missed earth because the sun flings them off in any direction, and we orbit around the sun, the last powerful one that hit earth was in 1859 and was called the Carrington Event.

Geomagnetic storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_storm

Carrington Event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

List of solar cycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_cycles

List of solar storms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_storms

The Carrington Event

The Carrington Event was the most intense geomagnetic storm in recorded history, peaking from 1 to 2 September 1859 during solar cycle 10. It created strong auroral displays that were reported globally and caused sparking and even fires in multiple telegraph stations. The geomagnetic storm was most likely the result of a coronal mass ejection (CME) from the Sun colliding with Earth’s magnetosphere.

The geomagnetic storm was associated with a very bright solar flare on 1 September 1859. It was observed and recorded independently by British astronomers Richard Carrington and Richard Hodgson – the first records of a solar flare.

A geomagnetic storm of this magnitude occurring today would cause widespread electrical disruptions, blackouts, and damage due to extended outages of the electrical power grid.

Geomagnetic storm
The solar storm of 2012, as photographed by STEREO, was a CME of comparable strength to the one which is thought to have struck the Earth during the 1859 Carrington Event.

On 1–2 September 1859, one of the largest geomagnetic storms (as recorded by ground-based magnetometers) occurred. Estimates of the storm strength (Dst) range from −0.80 to −1.75 µT.

The geomagnetic storm is thought to have been initiated by a major coronal mass ejection (CME) that traveled directly toward Earth, taking 17.6 hours to make the 150 million kilometre (93 million mile) journey. Typical CMEs take several days to arrive at Earth, but it is believed that the relatively high speed of this CME was made possible by a prior CME, perhaps the cause of the large aurora event on 29 August that “cleared the way” of ambient solar wind plasma for the Carrington Event.

7 of the Strongest Solar Storms in Recorded History

https://interestingengineering.com/7-of-the-strongest-solar-storms-in-recorded-history

1. There was a pretty strong one in 1859

2. Another big one hit in 1921

3. Another one knocked out long-distance communications across America

4. Yet another solar storm knocked out electrical grids in Canada in 1989

5. In 2000, another solar flare struck Earth, knocking out satellites

6. Another big solar storm occurred in 2003

7. Yet another big solar storm hit Earth in 2006

the most recent one not on that list is this one

Feb 2022 SpaceX Starlink satellites failure A mild solar particle and geomagnetic storm led to the failure and reentry of 40 SpaceX Starlink satellites that had been recently launched and were in low Earth orbit (LEO)

Tau.Neutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

There is.

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

There have been many solar storms that have missed earth because the sun flings them off in any direction, and we orbit around the sun, the last powerful one that hit earth was in 1859 and was called the Carrington Event.

Geomagnetic storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_storm

Carrington Event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

List of solar cycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_cycles

List of solar storms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_storms

The Carrington Event

The Carrington Event was the most intense geomagnetic storm in recorded history, peaking from 1 to 2 September 1859 during solar cycle 10. It created strong auroral displays that were reported globally and caused sparking and even fires in multiple telegraph stations. The geomagnetic storm was most likely the result of a coronal mass ejection (CME) from the Sun colliding with Earth’s magnetosphere.

The geomagnetic storm was associated with a very bright solar flare on 1 September 1859. It was observed and recorded independently by British astronomers Richard Carrington and Richard Hodgson – the first records of a solar flare.

A geomagnetic storm of this magnitude occurring today would cause widespread electrical disruptions, blackouts, and damage due to extended outages of the electrical power grid.

Geomagnetic storm
The solar storm of 2012, as photographed by STEREO, was a CME of comparable strength to the one which is thought to have struck the Earth during the 1859 Carrington Event.

On 1–2 September 1859, one of the largest geomagnetic storms (as recorded by ground-based magnetometers) occurred. Estimates of the storm strength (Dst) range from −0.80 to −1.75 µT.

The geomagnetic storm is thought to have been initiated by a major coronal mass ejection (CME) that traveled directly toward Earth, taking 17.6 hours to make the 150 million kilometre (93 million mile) journey. Typical CMEs take several days to arrive at Earth, but it is believed that the relatively high speed of this CME was made possible by a prior CME, perhaps the cause of the large aurora event on 29 August that “cleared the way” of ambient solar wind plasma for the Carrington Event.

7 of the Strongest Solar Storms in Recorded History

https://interestingengineering.com/7-of-the-strongest-solar-storms-in-recorded-history

1. There was a pretty strong one in 1859

2. Another big one hit in 1921

3. Another one knocked out long-distance communications across America

4. Yet another solar storm knocked out electrical grids in Canada in 1989

5. In 2000, another solar flare struck Earth, knocking out satellites

6. Another big solar storm occurred in 2003

7. Yet another big solar storm hit Earth in 2006

the most recent one not on that list is this one

Feb 2022 SpaceX Starlink satellites failure A mild solar particle and geomagnetic storm led to the failure and reentry of 40 SpaceX Starlink satellites that had been recently launched and were in low Earth orbit (LEO)

Looks like some of those lists need updating.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So is all the suggested devestation from a mega-solar storm just cklick-bait hype?

Or ignorant scientists perhaps? :)

There have been many solar storms that have missed earth because the sun flings them off in any direction, and we orbit around the sun, the last powerful one that hit earth was in 1859 and was called the Carrington Event.

Geomagnetic storm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_storm

Carrington Event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

List of solar cycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_cycles

List of solar storms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_storms

The Carrington Event

The Carrington Event was the most intense geomagnetic storm in recorded history, peaking from 1 to 2 September 1859 during solar cycle 10. It created strong auroral displays that were reported globally and caused sparking and even fires in multiple telegraph stations. The geomagnetic storm was most likely the result of a coronal mass ejection (CME) from the Sun colliding with Earth’s magnetosphere.

The geomagnetic storm was associated with a very bright solar flare on 1 September 1859. It was observed and recorded independently by British astronomers Richard Carrington and Richard Hodgson – the first records of a solar flare.

A geomagnetic storm of this magnitude occurring today would cause widespread electrical disruptions, blackouts, and damage due to extended outages of the electrical power grid.

Geomagnetic storm
The solar storm of 2012, as photographed by STEREO, was a CME of comparable strength to the one which is thought to have struck the Earth during the 1859 Carrington Event.

On 1–2 September 1859, one of the largest geomagnetic storms (as recorded by ground-based magnetometers) occurred. Estimates of the storm strength (Dst) range from −0.80 to −1.75 µT.

The geomagnetic storm is thought to have been initiated by a major coronal mass ejection (CME) that traveled directly toward Earth, taking 17.6 hours to make the 150 million kilometre (93 million mile) journey. Typical CMEs take several days to arrive at Earth, but it is believed that the relatively high speed of this CME was made possible by a prior CME, perhaps the cause of the large aurora event on 29 August that “cleared the way” of ambient solar wind plasma for the Carrington Event.

7 of the Strongest Solar Storms in Recorded History

https://interestingengineering.com/7-of-the-strongest-solar-storms-in-recorded-history

1. There was a pretty strong one in 1859

2. Another big one hit in 1921

3. Another one knocked out long-distance communications across America

4. Yet another solar storm knocked out electrical grids in Canada in 1989

5. In 2000, another solar flare struck Earth, knocking out satellites

6. Another big solar storm occurred in 2003

7. Yet another big solar storm hit Earth in 2006

the most recent one not on that list is this one

Feb 2022 SpaceX Starlink satellites failure A mild solar particle and geomagnetic storm led to the failure and reentry of 40 SpaceX Starlink satellites that had been recently launched and were in low Earth orbit (LEO)

Looks like some of those lists need updating.

Get yourself a wiki account and have at it. I occasionally do.

Does the sun fling off solar flares in any direction or are they flung off from around the suns equator?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Does the sun fling off solar flares in any direction or are they flung off from around the suns equator?

It would be interesting to see how many solar storms are flung off the sun, and the percentage of storms likely to hit us.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Does the sun fling off solar flares in any direction or are they flung off from around the suns equator?

It would be interesting to see how many solar storms are flung off the sun, and the percentage of storms likely to hit us.

The number of solar flares increases approximately every 11 years.

roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Does the sun fling off solar flares in any direction or are they flung off from around the suns equator?

It would be interesting to see how many solar storms are flung off the sun, and the percentage of storms likely to hit us.

The number of solar flares increases approximately every 11 years.

The biggest flares are known as “X-class flares” based on a classification system that divides solar flares according to their strength. The smallest ones are A-class (near background levels), followed by B, C, M and X. Similar to the Richter scale for earthquakes, each letter represents a 10-fold increase in energy output. So an X is ten times an M and 100 times a C. Within each letter class there is a finer scale from 1 to 9.

C-class and smaller flares are too weak to noticeably affect Earth. M-class flares can cause brief radio blackouts at the poles and minor radiation storms that might endanger astronauts.

And then come the X-class flares. Although X is the last letter, there are flares more than 10 times the power of an X1, so X-class flares can go higher than 9. The most powerful flare measured with modern methods was in 2003, during the last solar maximum, and it was so powerful that it overloaded the sensors measuring it. The sensors cut out at X28.

The biggest X-class flares are by far the largest explosions in the solar system and are awesome to watch. Loops tens of times the size of Earth leap up off the sun’s surface when the sun’s magnetic fields cross over each other and reconnect. In the biggest events, this reconnection process can produce as much energy as a billion hydrogen bombs.

If they’re directed at Earth, such flares and associated CMEs can create long lasting radiation storms that can harm satellites, communications systems, and even ground-based technologies and power grids. X-class flares on December 5 and December 6, 2006, for example, triggered a CME that interfered with GPS signals being sent to ground-based receivers.

NASA and NOAA – as well as the US Air Force Weather Agency (AFWA) and others — keep a constant watch on the sun to monitor for X-class flares and their associated magnetic storms. With advance warning many satellites and spacecraft can be protected from the worst effects.

roughbarked said:

roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

It would be interesting to see how many solar storms are flung off the sun, and the percentage of storms likely to hit us.

The number of solar flares increases approximately every 11 years.

The biggest flares are known as “X-class flares” based on a classification system that divides solar flares according to their strength. The smallest ones are A-class (near background levels), followed by B, C, M and X. Similar to the Richter scale for earthquakes, each letter represents a 10-fold increase in energy output. So an X is ten times an M and 100 times a C. Within each letter class there is a finer scale from 1 to 9.

C-class and smaller flares are too weak to noticeably affect Earth. M-class flares can cause brief radio blackouts at the poles and minor radiation storms that might endanger astronauts.

And then come the X-class flares. Although X is the last letter, there are flares more than 10 times the power of an X1, so X-class flares can go higher than 9. The most powerful flare measured with modern methods was in 2003, during the last solar maximum, and it was so powerful that it overloaded the sensors measuring it. The sensors cut out at X28.

The biggest X-class flares are by far the largest explosions in the solar system and are awesome to watch. Loops tens of times the size of Earth leap up off the sun’s surface when the sun’s magnetic fields cross over each other and reconnect. In the biggest events, this reconnection process can produce as much energy as a billion hydrogen bombs.

If they’re directed at Earth, such flares and associated CMEs can create long lasting radiation storms that can harm satellites, communications systems, and even ground-based technologies and power grids. X-class flares on December 5 and December 6, 2006, for example, triggered a CME that interfered with GPS signals being sent to ground-based receivers.

NASA and NOAA – as well as the US Air Force Weather Agency (AFWA) and others — keep a constant watch on the sun to monitor for X-class flares and their associated magnetic storms. With advance warning many satellites and spacecraft can be protected from the worst effects.

Solar Cycle 25 is expected to peak in July 2025. That’s when sunspots will be the most numerous, as magnetic energy, or flux, bubbles to the sun’s surface from deeper down in the plasma body. Any sunspot can produce flares and coronal mass ejections that can be disruptive to Earth; during solar maximum, there are many more opportunities for that to happen.

Would it take as much energy to put an observation satellite into polar sol orbit as it would to send it into the sun?

I guess you would have to change its relative motion 90 degrees from earths in both cases, so I assume so. In that case we won’t be getting any SOHO or STEREO type missions in sol-polar orbit.

I should know this, it’s not rocket science.

Does the sun have any favourite places where to fling super flares off?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Does the sun have any favourite places where to fling super flares off?

Sunspots.

There is a distinct lack of attribution going on in this thread this morning.

buffy said:

There is a distinct lack of attribution going on in this thread this morning.

I sees someone above in the thread seems astronomically erudite