This battery is about the size of four fridges, covered in art and is being billed as the way of the future

is it Musk bullshit or is it good

SCIENCE said:

is it Musk bullshit or is it good

Waiting for sibeen.

so looks like

$1m community battery unveiled in Melbourne in move towards more renewable energy

A battery the size of four fridges installed in Melbourne’s inner north is expected to provide solar power to about 200 homes in a push to get more renewable energy into the network.

is $5000 per house good bad or other

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Yes.

roughbarked said:

This battery is about the size of four fridges, covered in art and is being billed as the way of the future

I gotta say…

Given the economies of scale and the fact that this is a non-profit, I would not say $3500 per kWh sotage is a good price. Even Tesla Powerwall gives better prices and it is not the cheapest.

dv said:

roughbarked said:

This battery is about the size of four fridges, covered in art and is being billed as the way of the future

I gotta say…

Given the economies of scale and the fact that this is a non-profit, I would not say $3500 per kWh sotage is a good price. Even Tesla Powerwall gives better prices and it is not the cheapest.

I was just about to say exactly this. $1M for 286 kWh is fucking abysmal.

roughbarked said:

SCIENCE said:

is it Musk bullshit or is it good

Waiting for sibeen.

wait no longer.

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Mmm why though?

Like you can buy off the shelf retail systems in Australia, scaled for a home (like 10 to 15 kWh) for around 600 AUD per kWh.

Someone coming in and saying they are going to spend 8 million dollars on a bunch of systems around 280 kWh a piece should surely be able to negotiate that down further.

Perhaps this is not the unit price but is instead the price of the orgram so far and there were various startup costs, because this thing should not cost more than $200000.

On the plus side I didn’t detect any mensurative unit errors in the article.

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Why?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

>> All the things I didn’t think of. <<

Well, that clinches it for me.

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

Ya. Solar powered mini-grids.

What’s not to like?

One upcoming option for people with suitable EV cars is to use the car as the house battery. There’s already inverters and cars that can do that. And the battery is likely to have much more capacity than a typical dedicated hour battery.

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia? The technology was pioneered here. By all accounts it is much cheaper than Liion. China is building a 800 MWh VRFB plant. South Africa is building a 70 MWh one. Australia is one of the most Vanadium rich countries in the world, holding 18% of economic resources.

It isn’t good for car batteries because of the poor power to weight ratio but for a standing storage facility it is fine. It can take 10000 recharges without needing to be reformed.

Spiny Norman said:

One upcoming option for people with suitable EV cars is to use the car as the house battery. There’s already inverters and cars that can do that. And the battery is likely to have much more capacity than a typical dedicated hour battery.

+1

Spiny Norman said:

One upcoming option for people with suitable EV cars is to use the car as the house battery. There’s already inverters and cars that can do that. And the battery is likely to have much more capacity than a typical dedicated hour battery.

That’s another advantage of community batteries.

People can use their car when it is available, and use the community battery when it isn’t, so the community battery can supply more houses.

dv said:

Spiny Norman said:

One upcoming option for people with suitable EV cars is to use the car as the house battery. There’s already inverters and cars that can do that. And the battery is likely to have much more capacity than a typical dedicated hour battery.

+1

I’ve mentioned here before, on more than one occasion, the first time I heard of this concept was by a scientist from the CSIRO at a battery conference I attended in Sydney in 1991.

dv said:

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia? The technology was pioneered here. By all accounts it is much cheaper than Liion. China is building a 800 MWh VRFB plant. South Africa is building a 70 MWh one. Australia is one of the most Vanadium rich countries in the world, holding 18% of economic resources.

It isn’t good for car batteries because of the poor power to weight ratio but for a standing storage facility it is fine. It can take 10000 recharges without needing to be reformed.

I looked at the possibility of making my own, but getting the right membrane and control systems seemed a bit too tricky for me. I’m going to have a look at air-iron batteries soon. They might be a bit easier to make here at home.
A mate of mine was thinking about building a big flywheel battery. They can work quite well but require precise engineering.

dv said:

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Mmm why though?

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

dv said:

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia?

And what of zinc??

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Mmm why though?

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

Another thing I’ve mentioned here before, if we want to go completely green we are going to need a shitload of back-up. If you want 24 hours worth for the Oz grid and you want to rely on batteries then you need two years worth of the world’s total production of batteries. i cannot see that happening any time soon.

Ian said:

dv said:

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia?

And what of zinc??

Zinc is so 20th century.

Ian said:

dv said:

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia?

And what of zinc??

In all fairness and kindness the zinc air batteries have a more complicated cycle.

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Mmm why though?

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

You can do exactly the same thing with community batteries, or any other storage system.

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Mmm why though?

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

Another thing I’ve mentioned here before, if we want to go completely green we are going to need a shitload of back-up. If you want 24 hours worth for the Oz grid and you want to rely on batteries then you need two years worth of the world’s total production of batteries. i cannot see that happening any time soon.

But why would you use batteries for anything other than short term storage?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

Another thing I’ve mentioned here before, if we want to go completely green we are going to need a shitload of back-up. If you want 24 hours worth for the Oz grid and you want to rely on batteries then you need two years worth of the world’s total production of batteries. i cannot see that happening any time soon.

But why would you use batteries for anything other than short term storage?

I agree, but what other storage options do we have?

Plans for Australia’s first vanadium electrolyte manufacturing facility move forward

Australian Vanadium Limited has appointed a Western Australian engineering firm to begin the stage one of what it says will become the country’s first vanadium electrolyte manufacturing plant

AVL

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Australian Vanadium Limited (AVL) has appointed Western Australian-based engineering group Primero, a subsidiary of NRW Holdings, to begin the process of constructing its vanadium electrolyte manufacturing plant, which will importantly include negotiating its precise location within Western Australia.

In July, AVL was awarded a $3.69 million federal government grant which it says will allow it to design, build and operate a $7.4 million commercial vanadium battery electrolyte plant as well as develop vanadium redox flow battery prototypes for both off-grid and residential settings. Conditions of the grant dictate the manufacturing project must be fully completed by March 31, 2024.

https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/09/29/plans-for-australias-first-vanadium-electrolyte-manufacturing-facility-move-forward/

Movement at the station

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Mmm why though?

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

You can do exactly the same thing with community batteries, or any other storage system.

But you are relying on others. What if one household decides $1/kWh is a fair price to pay to run all their airconditioners, leaving none for the more frugal residents?

dv said:

Ian said:

dv said:

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia?

And what of zinc??

In all fairness and kindness the zinc air batteries have a more complicated cycle.

You’re too kind.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

Another thing I’ve mentioned here before, if we want to go completely green we are going to need a shitload of back-up. If you want 24 hours worth for the Oz grid and you want to rely on batteries then you need two years worth of the world’s total production of batteries. i cannot see that happening any time soon.

But why would you use batteries for anything other than short term storage?

Because sometimes you may have three days of rain depression where there is no wind or sun.

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Another thing I’ve mentioned here before, if we want to go completely green we are going to need a shitload of back-up. If you want 24 hours worth for the Oz grid and you want to rely on batteries then you need two years worth of the world’s total production of batteries. i cannot see that happening any time soon.

But why would you use batteries for anything other than short term storage?

Because sometimes you may have three days of rain depression where there is no wind or sun.

I suspect that the Rev is talking about other forms of storage, hydro or pumped hydro for example. I think the politic struggle to get many pumped storage facilities off the ground would be a bridge too far :)

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

But why would you use batteries for anything other than short term storage?

Because sometimes you may have three days of rain depression where there is no wind or sun.

I suspect that the Rev is talking about other forms of storage, hydro or pumped hydro for example. I think the politic struggle to get many pumped storage facilities off the ground would be a bridge too far :)

Not to spruik me own sporran but what about hydrogen???

dv said:

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

Because sometimes you may have three days of rain depression where there is no wind or sun.

I suspect that the Rev is talking about other forms of storage, hydro or pumped hydro for example. I think the politic struggle to get many pumped storage facilities off the ground would be a bridge too far :)

Not to spruik me own sporran but what about hydrogen???

Would love to see it get a go.

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Mmm why though?

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

Another thing I’ve mentioned here before, if we want to go completely green we are going to need a shitload of back-up. If you want 24 hours worth for the Oz grid and you want to rely on batteries then you need two years worth of the world’s total production of batteries. i cannot see that happening any time soon.

We only need that much storage because people demand to use electricity whenever they want it. Dynamic pricing will reduce the overall consumption considerably and go a long way to prevent the US style blackouts during periods of high demand.

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dark Orange said:

There are three desirable qualities to power generation – cheap, green, and reliable and none of the current generation methods in Australia posses all three qualities.

All the existing problems with cheap, green power is due to our addiction to reliable power supply and the only real solution to that is to make each individual consumer responsible for the reliability of their own supply, and home storage will do that – if coupled to a live pricing system.

Say it’s a sunny day and power is only 5c/kWh, so you fill up your 30kWh battery. The sunny day turns into a hot, still night and everybody turns their aircon units on causing the price to skyrocket tp $1/kWh. That’s where you use your battery storage, or even open up the windows and sell back into the grid and make a profit. Smart meters with brokering software could easily automate the whole process. (The “Uber of electricity generation”)

The consumer is encouraged to use less electricity, the supplier can buy electricity during peak periods, and the whole grid can be mostly powered by cheap, green sources.

You can do exactly the same thing with community batteries, or any other storage system.

But you are relying on others. What if one household decides $1/kWh is a fair price to pay to run all their airconditioners, leaving none for the more frugal residents?

I suppose you’d need some sort of rationing system and a variable pricing system responsive to the conditions.

dv said:

Ian said:

dv said:

Once again I find myself wondering…

Where are all the Vanadium redox flow batteries in Australia?

And what of zinc??

In all fairness and kindness the zinc air batteries have a more complicated cycle.

Zinc bromide flow batteries have many of the same advantages as VFBs, but also have a somewhat more complicated cycle, a major disadvantage being the requirement to short the battery every 3-4 cycles, but they’re cheap.

Ian said:

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

You can do exactly the same thing with community batteries, or any other storage system.

But you are relying on others. What if one household decides $1/kWh is a fair price to pay to run all their airconditioners, leaving none for the more frugal residents?

I suppose you’d need some sort of rationing system and a variable pricing system responsive to the conditions.

Just buy your own battery and be done with it.

Dark Orange said:

Ian said:

Dark Orange said:

But you are relying on others. What if one household decides $1/kWh is a fair price to pay to run all their airconditioners, leaving none for the more frugal residents?

I suppose you’d need some sort of rationing system and a variable pricing system responsive to the conditions.

Just buy your own battery and be done with it.

Batteries are fkn expensive…. etc etc around and around..

How do they do things in existing isolated mini-grids?

Ian said:

Dark Orange said:

Ian said:

I suppose you’d need some sort of rationing system and a variable pricing system responsive to the conditions.

Just buy your own battery and be done with it.

Batteries are fkn expensive…. etc etc around and around..

How do they do things in existing isolated mini-grids?

It would be worth the supply company’s while to subsidise their purchase and installation. (The smart broker meter could do the islanding)

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

romantic

dv said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

romantic

chuckle doubtful

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

> – The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses

sounds like it could be the case, though not necessarily, depends what contingent demand shedding was in place for anticipated extended low recharge, or inadequate recharge capacity

the worst of it is that at over some period, at some point recharge (recharge power + recombination losses etc) lags behind power used, then the peak load capacity declines as the battery charge state declines, and what is a critical low charge state depends on maximum likely discharge (demand)

transition said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

> – The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses

sounds like it could be the case, though not necessarily, depends what contingent demand shedding was in place for anticipated extended low recharge, or inadequate recharge capacity

the worst of it is that at over some period, at some point recharge (recharge power + recombination losses etc) lags behind power used, then the peak load capacity declines as the battery charge state declines, and what is a critical low charge state depends on maximum likely discharge (demand)

Perhaps I should reword that:
The relative variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for the single house in the system with the greatest variation.

I’m pretty sure that will always be true.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

transition said:

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

> – The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses

sounds like it could be the case, though not necessarily, depends what contingent demand shedding was in place for anticipated extended low recharge, or inadequate recharge capacity

the worst of it is that at over some period, at some point recharge (recharge power + recombination losses etc) lags behind power used, then the peak load capacity declines as the battery charge state declines, and what is a critical low charge state depends on maximum likely discharge (demand)

Perhaps I should reword that:
The relative variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for the single house in the system with the greatest variation.

I’m pretty sure that will always be true.

dunno, big rush to put the heaters, toasters, kettles and whatever on directly after however many people hear their bedside alarms go off, 7:30 am, 8:00am, whatever

in a home setting with emergency shedding (or prioritized power supply) a home user of a system might put a smaller hot water service element, get a lower power kettle and toaster, who knows

there’s the further dimension that as batteries age their AH capacity declines, with recombination cycles the AH capacity declines, think of it as the battery shrinking, like if you put a new battery in your car four years ago it’s ten inches by five inched across the top, six inches deep to the surface it sits on, but today it might be the equivalent of a battery quarter that size, like the old ute out there at the moment needs a new battery

depth of discharge cycles (and frequency of course) strongly influences AH capacity decline, longevity that way

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

> – The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses

sounds like it could be the case, though not necessarily, depends what contingent demand shedding was in place for anticipated extended low recharge, or inadequate recharge capacity

the worst of it is that at over some period, at some point recharge (recharge power + recombination losses etc) lags behind power used, then the peak load capacity declines as the battery charge state declines, and what is a critical low charge state depends on maximum likely discharge (demand)

Perhaps I should reword that:
The relative variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for the single house in the system with the greatest variation.

I’m pretty sure that will always be true.

dunno, big rush to put the heaters, toasters, kettles and whatever on directly after however many people hear their bedside alarms go off, 7:30 am, 8:00am, whatever

in a home setting with emergency shedding (or prioritized power supply) a home user of a system might put a smaller hot water service element, get a lower power kettle and toaster, who knows

there’s the further dimension that as batteries age their AH capacity declines, with recombination cycles the AH capacity declines, think of it as the battery shrinking, like if you put a new battery in your car four years ago it’s ten inches by five inched across the top, six inches deep to the surface it sits on, but today it might be the equivalent of a battery quarter that size, like the old ute out there at the moment needs a new battery

depth of discharge cycles (and frequency of course) strongly influences AH capacity decline, longevity that way

I think you are overcompilcating it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

transition said:

i’m just waiting for a hail storm to wipe mine out, be back to candles

> – The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses

sounds like it could be the case, though not necessarily, depends what contingent demand shedding was in place for anticipated extended low recharge, or inadequate recharge capacity

the worst of it is that at over some period, at some point recharge (recharge power + recombination losses etc) lags behind power used, then the peak load capacity declines as the battery charge state declines, and what is a critical low charge state depends on maximum likely discharge (demand)

Perhaps I should reword that:
The relative variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for the single house in the system with the greatest variation.

I’m pretty sure that will always be true.

this

>I think you are overcompilcating it.

possibly, probably twelve years on batteries and solar panels taught me nothing, certainly standing near the batteries doesn’t give me an erection

transition said:

>I think you are overcompilcating it.

possibly, probably twelve years on batteries and solar panels taught me nothing, certainly standing near the batteries doesn’t give me an erection

When it comes to the practicalities of these things, I’m happy to bow to your superior knowledge (with erection or not) :)

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

> – The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses

sounds like it could be the case, though not necessarily, depends what contingent demand shedding was in place for anticipated extended low recharge, or inadequate recharge capacity

the worst of it is that at over some period, at some point recharge (recharge power + recombination losses etc) lags behind power used, then the peak load capacity declines as the battery charge state declines, and what is a critical low charge state depends on maximum likely discharge (demand)

Perhaps I should reword that:
The relative variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for the single house in the system with the greatest variation.

I’m pretty sure that will always be true.

this

If the concern is that sharing a battery will lead to profligacy or prodigality then presumably appropriate financial incentives may be applied.

dv said:

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Perhaps I should reword that:
The relative variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for the single house in the system with the greatest variation.

I’m pretty sure that will always be true.

this

If the concern is that sharing a battery will lead to profligacy or prodigality then presumably appropriate financial incentives may be applied.

nah I reckon what rev said is right, community collection and storage is better that way, much better, the only way really, I was more pointing to why home storage doesn’t work, what’s required to make it work

communities on local storage are probably better placed, more likely to do the right thing

trouble with community systems is when it does down all go down, you have a shared power failure

the only thing I can truly boast about being on batteries is that I haven’t had a power failure in twelve years, or an electricity bill, but frankly all things considered i’d be better off on the grid

transition said:

dv said:

dv said:

this

If the concern is that sharing a battery will lead to profligacy or prodigality then presumably appropriate financial incentives may be applied.

nah I reckon what rev said is right, community collection and storage is better that way, much better, the only way really, I

So we’re all in agreement then

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

You’re missing the point. It is not about efficiency of delivery, it is about making the consumer responsible for their usage and giving them the option of being frugal with their usage and supplying the grid during times of peak demand.

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

You’re missing the point. It is not about efficiency of delivery, it is about making the consumer responsible for their usage and giving them the option of being frugal with their usage and supplying the grid during times of peak demand.

Users are already responsible for their usage. They get a bill.

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

You’re missing the point. It is not about efficiency of delivery, it is about making the consumer responsible for their usage and giving them the option of being frugal with their usage and supplying the grid during times of peak demand.

Users are already responsible for their usage. They get a bill.

Yeah, and I pay a fixed price regardless of the wholesale price. Those hot nights when the distribution system is about to melt down, I have zero incentive to turn the aircons off.

If I had an open plan house and 30kWh of stored power I could sell back for a profit, I’d certainly keep those aircons off.

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why?

I mean community systems seem to have several advantages such as:

- Everyone gets a bit of battery, not just the rich barstards who have some spare cash
- The variation in storage capacity demand would be way lower for a 200 house community than it is for single houses
- Installation costs would be much lower (or should be anyway)
- All the things I didn’t think of.

You’re missing the point. It is not about efficiency of delivery, it is about making the consumer responsible for their usage and giving them the option of being frugal with their usage and supplying the grid during times of peak demand.

Didn’t miss that point.

Well OK, it was missing from my list of advantages of the community battery. Feel free to add it.

I was more conjuring islanded (think is the term, maybe) community systems, or that they could be, operate that way

checking my terminology…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islanding
“…Some designs, commonly known as a microgrid, allow for intentional islanding. In case of an outage, a microgrid controller disconnects the local circuit from the grid on a dedicated switch and forces the distributed generator(s) to power the entire local load…”

guess I could read the linked page in the OP also

From one of my favourite YT channels.

Zinc Bromide GEL batteries. Cheaper, greener, simpler & safer than lithium -ion

Spiny Norman said:

From one of my favourite YT channels.

Zinc Bromide GEL batteries. Cheaper, greener, simpler & safer than lithium -ion

And another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn7pfYKB7DA

Spiny Norman said:

From one of my favourite YT channels.

Zinc Bromide GEL batteries. Cheaper, greener, simpler & safer than lithium -ion

Sounds promising

Dark Orange said:

Decentralised power storage is the way forward, but needs to be per household rather than community.

I agree.

As expensive as this idea is, there are even more stupid and expensive storage options out there:

https://jalopnik.com/autonomous-electric-trucks-could-deliver-hydroelectric-1849024558

To be honest, I specifically checked the date to make sure it wasn’t an April 1st thing.

Dark Orange said:

As expensive as this idea is, there are even more stupid and expensive storage options out there:

https://jalopnik.com/autonomous-electric-trucks-could-deliver-hydroelectric-1849024558

To be honest, I specifically checked the date to make sure it wasn’t an April 1st thing.

You can mock, but if you have a spare 65t dump truck in your garage, and a mountain up the road with a steady supply of water at the top, it could be just the thing.

Dark Orange said:

As expensive as this idea is, there are even more stupid and expensive

you know some might say just look over

https://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/topics/15914/

there

Dark Orange said:

As expensive as this idea is, there are even more stupid and expensive storage options out there:

https://jalopnik.com/autonomous-electric-trucks-could-deliver-hydroelectric-1849024558

To be honest, I specifically checked the date to make sure it wasn’t an April 1st thing.

:)

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Especially timeline. 50 years?

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Hydrogen hydrogen hydrogen!

Witty Rejoinder said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Hydrogen hydrogen hydrogen!

Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Hydrogen hydrogen hydrogen!

we mean who cares as long as nobody’s asking about the cost of continuing with Russian coal, or the timeline for transition from it

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Although those are reasonable follow up questions, and I do think it is good to keep these fellows on their toes so they stay across their portfolios, I did think it was a reasonable and apposite response to the 1970s style thought-terminating-cliches the opposition is still coming out with.

dv said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Although those are reasonable follow up questions, and I do think it is good to keep these fellows on their toes so they stay across their portfolios, I did think it was a reasonable and apposite response to the 1970s style thought-terminating-cliches the opposition is still coming out with.

It was an answer to a question by Chris Uhlmann.

dv said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Although those are reasonable follow up questions, and I do think it is good to keep these fellows on their toes so they stay across their portfolios, I did think it was a reasonable and apposite response to the 1970s style thought-terminating-cliches the opposition is still coming out with.

so what we’re saying is that Corruption hate on CHINA because otherwise given all the things they do similar to each other, Australians wouldn’t be able to tell the difference

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

My back-of-the-beer-coaster workings suggest an extra 0 on the end of the cost of solar installation infrastructure to give 24hrs of rated output.

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

My back-of-the-beer-coaster workings suggest an extra 0 on the end of the cost of solar installation infrastructure to give 24hrs of rated output.

…using existing battery technology.

Dark Orange said:

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

My back-of-the-beer-coaster workings suggest an extra 0 on the end of the cost of solar installation infrastructure to give 24hrs of rated output.

…using existing battery technology.

And the timeline? My BoE calcs suggested that it we wanted 24 hours of back-up for Australia’a electricity grid we would need 2 years of the world’s production of batteries. I somehow don’t think that the world is going to let us use them all – the selfish bastards.

What we need are new gasplants out the yinyang able to be transitioned to hydrogen in the 10 to 15 years.

Witty Rejoinder said:

What we need are new gasplants out the yinyang able to be transitioned to hydrogen in the 10 to 15 years.

‘next 10 to 15 years

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/wa-government-to-cut-emissions-by-80-per-cent-by-2030/101177274

Speaking at the announcement of a new desalination plant, Premier Mark McGowan confirmed the government would be investing $3.8 billion over the next decade in renewable energy.

“That will be both public and private to ensure that we can phase out of coal and head towards stored renewable energy, whether that’s batteries, or pumped hydro or wind or solar,” he said.

dv said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Although those are reasonable follow up questions, and I do think it is good to keep these fellows on their toes so they stay across their portfolios, I did think it was a reasonable and apposite response to the 1970s style thought-terminating-cliches the opposition is still coming out with.

Mr buffy and I were particularly gobsmacked the other day when we saw footage of Karen Andrews saying ‘They’ve had nine years in opposition, they should have been prepared.” about the energy problems.

buffy said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

A few days ago the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, came out with an answer to a question “the rain doesn’t always fall either, but we manage to store the water – we can store the renewable energy if we have the investment”.

He got roundly applauded for it.

No-one appeared to ask the obvious follow up questions – what is the cost and what is the timeline?

Although those are reasonable follow up questions, and I do think it is good to keep these fellows on their toes so they stay across their portfolios, I did think it was a reasonable and apposite response to the 1970s style thought-terminating-cliches the opposition is still coming out with.

Mr buffy and I were particularly gobsmacked the other day when we saw footage of Karen Andrews saying ‘They’ve had nine years in opposition, they should have been prepared.” about the energy problems.

Hehehehe…classic.

sibeen said:

buffy said:

dv said:

Although those are reasonable follow up questions, and I do think it is good to keep these fellows on their toes so they stay across their portfolios, I did think it was a reasonable and apposite response to the 1970s style thought-terminating-cliches the opposition is still coming out with.

Mr buffy and I were particularly gobsmacked the other day when we saw footage of Karen Andrews saying ‘They’ve had nine years in opposition, they should have been prepared.” about the energy problems.

Hehehehe…classic.

https://twitter.com/Qldaah/status/1537684617976610816

Link

ChrispenEvan said:

sibeen said:

buffy said:

Mr buffy and I were particularly gobsmacked the other day when we saw footage of Karen Andrews saying ‘They’ve had nine years in opposition, they should have been prepared.” about the energy problems.

Hehehehe…classic.

https://twitter.com/Qldaah/status/1537684617976610816

Link

Thank you, I couldn’t find a link. Not sure where we saw it, probably on Charlie Pickering’s program.

sibeen said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/wa-government-to-cut-emissions-by-80-per-cent-by-2030/101177274

Speaking at the announcement of a new desalination plant, Premier Mark McGowan confirmed the government would be investing $3.8 billion over the next decade in renewable energy.

“That will be both public and private to ensure that we can phase out of coal and head towards stored renewable energy, whether that’s batteries, or pumped hydro or wind or solar,” he said.

When = not in the next decade
How = we have no idea
$$$ = billions

This battery system will be fine as long as no one is using it to heat anything – water, food, air.

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/wa-government-to-cut-emissions-by-80-per-cent-by-2030/101177274

Speaking at the announcement of a new desalination plant, Premier Mark McGowan confirmed the government would be investing $3.8 billion over the next decade in renewable energy.

“That will be both public and private to ensure that we can phase out of coal and head towards stored renewable energy, whether that’s batteries, or pumped hydro or wind or solar,” he said.

When = not in the next decade
How = we have no idea
$$$ = billions

might as well not do anything then.

ChrispenEvan said:

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/wa-government-to-cut-emissions-by-80-per-cent-by-2030/101177274

Speaking at the announcement of a new desalination plant, Premier Mark McGowan confirmed the government would be investing $3.8 billion over the next decade in renewable energy.

“That will be both public and private to ensure that we can phase out of coal and head towards stored renewable energy, whether that’s batteries, or pumped hydro or wind or solar,” he said.

When = not in the next decade
How = we have no idea
$$$ = billions

might as well not do anything then.

well yeah it’ll be cheaper in the future if we invest nothing in it now

ChrispenEvan said:

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/wa-government-to-cut-emissions-by-80-per-cent-by-2030/101177274

Speaking at the announcement of a new desalination plant, Premier Mark McGowan confirmed the government would be investing $3.8 billion over the next decade in renewable energy.

“That will be both public and private to ensure that we can phase out of coal and head towards stored renewable energy, whether that’s batteries, or pumped hydro or wind or solar,” he said.

When = not in the next decade
How = we have no idea
$$$ = billions

might as well not do anything then.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that.

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Dark Orange said:

When = not in the next decade
How = we have no idea
$$$ = billions

might as well not do anything then.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that.

maybe in name only.

Australia’s chance to do anything evaporated when Rudd handed over 900 dollars to everyone

They should have used the money to put solar up on everyone’s roof but didn’t

ChrispenEvan said:

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

might as well not do anything then.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that.

maybe in name only.

The more the merrier, I just think that the pollies should acknowledge that this isn’t going to be cheap or quick. The way most sprout off you’d think it was going to be a walk in the park.

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

sibeen said:

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that.

maybe in name only.

The more the merrier, I just think that the pollies should acknowledge that this isn’t going to be cheap or quick. The way most sprout off you’d think it was going to be a walk in the park.

At least that would keep you warm and you wouldn’t need electricity to do it.

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

sibeen said:

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that.

maybe in name only.

The more the merrier, I just think that the pollies should acknowledge that this isn’t going to be cheap or quick. The way most sprout off you’d think it was going to be a walk in the park.

reading the article i think they know that. it is also a message that we are open to renewable investment. at least we have a plan. plus we have heaps of money at the moment.

buffy said:

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

maybe in name only.

The more the merrier, I just think that the pollies should acknowledge that this isn’t going to be cheap or quick. The way most sprout off you’d think it was going to be a walk in the park.

At least that would keep you warm and you wouldn’t need electricity to do it.

we can do both over here.

:-)

ChrispenEvan said:

buffy said:

sibeen said:

The more the merrier, I just think that the pollies should acknowledge that this isn’t going to be cheap or quick. The way most sprout off you’d think it was going to be a walk in the park.

At least that would keep you warm and you wouldn’t need electricity to do it.

we can do both over here.

:-)

^ ^^

sibeen said:

It was an answer to a question by Chris Uhlmann.

TWBR

dv said:

sibeen said:

It was an answer to a question by Chris Uhlmann.

TWBR

That’s What Bilbo Regurgitated?

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

It was an answer to a question by Chris Uhlmann.

TWBR

That’s What Bilbo Regurgitated?

Yes

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

It was an answer to a question by Chris Uhlmann.

TWBR

That’s What Bilbo Regurgitated?

that would be right!

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

TWBR

That’s What Bilbo Regurgitated?

Yes

I thought it must have been.

does happy dance

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

That’s What Bilbo Regurgitated?

Yes

I thought it must have been.

does happy dance

Haven’t seen that for a while

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/australia-needs-more-renewables-but-does-it-need-more-powerlines/101188978

I didn’t realise that the new government had such ambitious targets. I just wish there was some plan that they could present to show how this could be anywhere close to being possible. I just cannot find anything.

Oh, there’s promises of spending $20B on a grid upgrade and a billion here and a billion there on solar and batteries, but that’s not going to get within coo-ee of 82%.

sibeen said:

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/australia-needs-more-renewables-but-does-it-need-more-powerlines/101188978

I didn’t realise that the new government had such ambitious targets. I just wish there was some plan that they could present to show how this could be anywhere close to being possible. I just cannot find anything.

Oh, there’s promises of spending $20B on a grid upgrade and a billion here and a billion there on solar and batteries, but that’s not going to get within coo-ee of 82%.

This is the fuel mix right at the moment for the National Grid – Excluding WA + NT.

Coal and gas makes up 78% of the current generation. Seven years until 2030.

sibeen said:

sibeen said:

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/australia-needs-more-renewables-but-does-it-need-more-powerlines/101188978

I didn’t realise that the new government had such ambitious targets. I just wish there was some plan that they could present to show how this could be anywhere close to being possible. I just cannot find anything.

Oh, there’s promises of spending $20B on a grid upgrade and a billion here and a billion there on solar and batteries, but that’s not going to get within coo-ee of 82%.

This is the fuel mix right at the moment for the National Grid – Excluding WA + NT.

Coal and gas makes up 78% of the current generation. Seven years until 2030.

Invade PNG and the Indonesian half of the island. Chop the rain forest down for biomass. It should take about 40 years to clear it fro, one end to the other, by which time it will have regrown enough to start again.

Problem solved.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

sibeen said:

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/australia-needs-more-renewables-but-does-it-need-more-powerlines/101188978

I didn’t realise that the new government had such ambitious targets. I just wish there was some plan that they could present to show how this could be anywhere close to being possible. I just cannot find anything.

Oh, there’s promises of spending $20B on a grid upgrade and a billion here and a billion there on solar and batteries, but that’s not going to get within coo-ee of 82%.

This is the fuel mix right at the moment for the National Grid – Excluding WA + NT.

Coal and gas makes up 78% of the current generation. Seven years until 2030.

Invade PNG and the Indonesian half of the island. Chop the rain forest down for biomass. It should take about 40 years to clear it fro, one end to the other, by which time it will have regrown enough to start again.

Problem solved.

Oh, we could do that to offset our emissions, but that’s not what they are claiming they want to do. They want the electricity generation energy content to be 82%.

I just think it is not even close to being possible in 7 years, and I cannot find a plan anywhere that shows me a roadmap to how it could be achieved.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

This is the fuel mix right at the moment for the National Grid – Excluding WA + NT.

Coal and gas makes up 78% of the current generation. Seven years until 2030.

Invade PNG and the Indonesian half of the island. Chop the rain forest down for biomass. It should take about 40 years to clear it fro, one end to the other, by which time it will have regrown enough to start again.

Problem solved.

Oh, we could do that to offset our emissions, but that’s not what they are claiming they want to do. They want the electricity generation energy content to be 82%.

I just think it is not even close to being possible in 7 years, and I cannot find a plan anywhere that shows me a roadmap to how it could be achieved.

They could give a billion or two to have a go at farming seaweed for biomass. No exoerience but I promise to give it a real honest go.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Invade PNG and the Indonesian half of the island. Chop the rain forest down for biomass. It should take about 40 years to clear it fro, one end to the other, by which time it will have regrown enough to start again.

Problem solved.

Oh, we could do that to offset our emissions, but that’s not what they are claiming they want to do. They want the electricity generation energy content to be 82%.

I just think it is not even close to being possible in 7 years, and I cannot find a plan anywhere that shows me a roadmap to how it could be achieved.

They could give a billion or two to have a go at farming seaweed for biomass. No exoerience but I promise to give it a real honest go.

They could give me a billion or two…

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Oh, we could do that to offset our emissions, but that’s not what they are claiming they want to do. They want the electricity generation energy content to be 82%.

I just think it is not even close to being possible in 7 years, and I cannot find a plan anywhere that shows me a roadmap to how it could be achieved.

They could give a billion or two to have a go at farming seaweed for biomass. No exoerience but I promise to give it a real honest go.

They could give me a billion or two…

You may as well put your hand up as someone is going to be getting some feelthy lucre.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

They could give a billion or two to have a go at farming seaweed for biomass. No exoerience but I promise to give it a real honest go.

They could give me a billion or two…

You may as well put your hand up as someone is going to be getting some feelthy lucre.

And with coal currently at about $580 a few miners might be making a motza.

sibeen said:

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/australia-needs-more-renewables-but-does-it-need-more-powerlines/101188978

I didn’t realise that the new government had such ambitious targets. I just wish there was some plan that they could present to show how this could be anywhere close to being possible. I just cannot find anything.

Oh, there’s promises of spending $20B on a grid upgrade and a billion here and a billion there on solar and batteries, but that’s not going to get within coo-ee of 82%.

I too would like to see this plan.

I would also want some more info about why the powerlines are incompatible with potatoes. Is it just an access thing?

Katherine Myers and her husband Ben are fifth-generation potato farmers.

They live with their children in western Victoria, where a renewable energy transition is underway, and like the majority of Australians, care deeply about preventing climate change.

However, there’s one aspect of the transition to renewables that stands to jeopardise their operation: An upcoming energy transmission project will see high-voltage powerlines built through their farm.

Once the lines are up, Ms Myers is worried her family will not be able to irrigate or use aircraft to spray the crops.

“This paddock here is … growing certified seed potato for the rest of our industry,” Ms Myers said. 

“This paddock won’t be suitable for growing potatoes once the transmission line goes through.”

dv said:

sibeen said:

The Labor government has a plan to increase the share of renewable energy in the grid to 82 per cent by 2030.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/australia-needs-more-renewables-but-does-it-need-more-powerlines/101188978

I didn’t realise that the new government had such ambitious targets. I just wish there was some plan that they could present to show how this could be anywhere close to being possible. I just cannot find anything.

Oh, there’s promises of spending $20B on a grid upgrade and a billion here and a billion there on solar and batteries, but that’s not going to get within coo-ee of 82%.

I too would like to see this plan.

I would also want some more info about why the powerlines are incompatible with potatoes. Is it just an access thing?

Katherine Myers and her husband Ben are fifth-generation potato farmers.

They live with their children in western Victoria, where a renewable energy transition is underway, and like the majority of Australians, care deeply about preventing climate change.

However, there’s one aspect of the transition to renewables that stands to jeopardise their operation: An upcoming energy transmission project will see high-voltage powerlines built through their farm.

Once the lines are up, Ms Myers is worried her family will not be able to irrigate or use aircraft to spray the crops.

“This paddock here is … growing certified seed potato for the rest of our industry,” Ms Myers said. 

“This paddock won’t be suitable for growing potatoes once the transmission line goes through.”

There was some mention of crop spraying. I imagine the pilots hate dodging them :)

I acknowledge that a fat array of HV lines can ameliorate regional intermittency to some extent, and it appears that redundant gas plants will be kept ready for extreme situations but they also have very ambitious plans regarding hydrogen plants and ambition is all well and good but shit you’ve only got 8 years.

Let me finish the report.

Well I hope you get better value for money than the people who bought the battery that this thread is about or that 200 m will not go far at all.

dv said:

Well I hope you get better value for money than the people who bought the battery that this thread is about or that 200 m will not go far at all.

So you’re reading the “Powering Australia” report?

sibeen said:

dv said:

Well I hope you get better value for money than the people who bought the battery that this thread is about or that 200 m will not go far at all.

So you’re reading the “Powering Australia” report?

Yes

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

Well I hope you get better value for money than the people who bought the battery that this thread is about or that 200 m will not go far at all.

So you’re reading the “Powering Australia” report?

Yes

Yeah, the electricity section, pages 20 to 25, lays out a structured engineering, financial and infrastructure plan for how the 82% goal can be achieved.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

So you’re reading the “Powering Australia” report?

Yes

Yeah, the electricity section, pages 20 to 25, lays out a structured engineering, financial and infrastructure plan for how the 82% goal can be achieved.

Are you being sarcastic?

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

Yes

Yeah, the electricity section, pages 20 to 25, lays out a structured engineering, financial and infrastructure plan for how the 82% goal can be achieved.

Are you being sarcastic?

Saying I wasn’t completely underwhelmed by the document would be a bit of an understatement.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Yeah, the electricity section, pages 20 to 25, lays out a structured engineering, financial and infrastructure plan for how the 82% goal can be achieved.

Are you being sarcastic?

Saying I wasn’t completely underwhelmed by the document would be a bit of an understatement.

Perhaps the modelling documents are somewhere else. I assume the 82% wasn’t just pulled out of nowhere.

I appreciate that they don’t need to be completely specific because it will of course partly depend on market decisions. But some general estimates would be good.

They didn’t even mention zinc air vehicles

dv said:

They didn’t even mention zinc air vehicles