As I see a request to talk about stuff other than trans women in sport, lets have a thread for what Witty has mentioned about the young natal females using puberty blockers and then testosterone boosters for the rest of their life. I find this quite troubling, given what we know from the young female athletes who were given testosterone in years past. And as you know, I have a niece => nephew, so I’ve chased up the science. If you want to read about it, here is a website that could keep you reading for some time

https://segm.org/

Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine.

I’m fairly sure I’ve given this link before, but it may have been in Chat.

The inclination to hasten slowly with regard to matters of child safety is understandable. In this case a key document is the following standards publication:

https://www.rch.org.au/uploadedFiles/Main/Content/adolescent-medicine/australian-standards-of-care-and-treatment-guidelines-for-trans-and-gender-diverse-children-and-adolescents.pdf

Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines For trans and gender diverse children and adolescents
This is version 1.3 (2020) but 1.1 was published in 2017. It was based on the input of 40 Australasian paediatric researchers and other healthcare professionals.

The Lancet gave editorial approval to these Standards in 2018.
https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(18)31429-6.pdf

The standards were designed on the basis of minimising harm to young people with gender dysphoria.

Later in 2017, a ruling by the Family Court made it possible for minors with gender dysphoria to obtain gender affirming hormones without a court decision: all that would be required is an appropriate diagnosis and approval by a physician, consent of the patient and consent of the parents/guardians.

https://www.hrlc.org.au/human-rights-case-summaries/2017/12/20/family-court-of-australia-clears-the-way-for-young-trans-people-to-access-hormone-treatment-without-court-authorisation

——

Summary

The Full Family Court of Australia has held that Stage 2 hormone treatment for transgender young people does not require the court’s authorisation. Court intervention will remain necessary where there is controversy or disagreement between parents or between treating doctors and parents.

Until this case, it is understood that Australia was the only jurisdiction in the world to require transgender young people to seek court authorisation to access treatment. This has drawn criticism from doctors, parents and advocates for unnecessarily increasing mental health risks for transgender young people.

Facts

Kelvin was registered as female at birth, but has identified as transgender since he was nine years old. Kelvin was treated by a psychologist, a psychiatrist and an endocrinologist – all of whom agreed that Kelvin met the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria and recommended that Kelvin undertake Stage 2 treatment.

In January 2017, Kelvin’s father applied to the Family Court for an order that Kelvin is competent to consent to Stage 2 treatment. There was agreement between Kelvin, his father, his mother or his treating medical practitioners that the treatment was in Kelvin’s best interests and necessary to alleviate Kelvin’s symptoms of gender dysphoria. Kelvin is now 17 years old.

Children under the age of 18 who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria may wish to access the medical treatment to support them to transition and live as their affirmed gender. A young person experiencing gender dysphoria experiences intense discomfort and distress with their biological sex, and consequently, the sex characteristics and gender expression they physically exhibit. Stage one treatment (“puberty blockers”) for gender dysphoria involves supressing the onset puberty and, following the case of Re Lucy  FamCA 518), court authorisation is generally not required. However, the Family Court of Australia previously held in the case of Re Jamie  FamCAFC 110 that court authorisation must be obtained before children commence stage two treatment (cross-sex hormone treatment – i.e. oestrogen or testosterone) largely because, compared to Stage 1 treatment, the effects of cross-sex hormone treatment are irreversible.

This decision meant that where stage two treatment of a child with gender dysphoria was sought, the child had to apply to the Family Court for authority to commence this treatment. Since Re Jamie the Family Court has dealt with 63 cases involving stage two treatment for gender dysphoria. In 62 cases the treatment was allowed. For these cases the average wait between the time treatment was recommended and when the case was heard was eight months. During this time, many of the children experienced a decrease in their emotional well-being, including anxiety, depression and self-harm. The resources of clinicians and the hospital were diverted from providing treatment to preparing court reports and explaining and supporting families through the court process. Further, there was a significant financial cost for families in going to the Family Court to obtain authorisation.

Court authorisation not required in uncontroversial cases

The Court found authorisation is no longer required in circumstances where the child is Gillick competent to make the decision to commence treatment as determined by their medical practitioners. Court authorisation will also no longer be required in circumstances where the child is not Gillick competent but their parents’ consent and medical practitioners agree. However, court authorisation will still be required for a ward of the state or where there is a genuine dispute or controversy (e.g. if the parents or medical professionals disagree).

The majority found that there is “no question that the state of medical knowledge has evolved since the decision in Re Jamie”, particularly the increased knowledge of the risks associated with not treating a young person who has gender dysphoria. Here, the majority reflected that “t is readily apparent that the judicial understanding of Gender Dysphoria and its treatment have fallen behind the advances in medical science.”

The majority held that the therapeutic benefits of stage two treatment outweigh the risks and consequences involved in the irreversible nature of the treatment. The decision places emphasis on the need for proper medical assessment in determining treatment to be appropriate for the child.

The minority agreed that a Gillick competent child can consent to Stage 2 treatment without court authorisation.

Gillick competence mentioned above refers to “achieving a sufficient understanding and intelligence to enable him or her to understand fully what is proposed”.

Stage 2 here refers to hormonal treatments that will have irreversible results, applied after the age of 16, typically.

Now, it seems to me that an alternative to cutting the court out would be to try to improve their resources so that there wasn’t an average 8 month delay. However, given that they approved 62 out of 63 applicants, it might be that the results would have been the same anyway.

Per the Standards, then:

Criteria for adolescents to commence gender affirming hormone treatment using oestrogen or testosterone:
1. A diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in Adolescence, made by a mental health clinician with expertise in child and adolescent development, psychopathology and experience with children and adolescents with gender dysphoria.
2. Medical assessment including fertility preservation counselling has been completed by a general practitioner, paediatrician, adolescent physician or endocrinologist.
This assessment should include further fertility preservation counselling by a gynaecologist and/or andrologist as required with referral for fertility preservation when requested.
3. The treating team should agree that commencement of oestrogen or testosterone is in the best interest of the adolescent and informed consent from the adolescent has been obtained. Current Australian law requires the adolescent’s clinicians to ascertain whether or not an adolescent’s parents or legal guardians consent to the proposed treatment before an adolescent can access either pubertal suppression or hormone treatment. Where there is no dispute between the parents, the adolescent or the medical practitioner, the clinician may proceed on the basis of the adolescent’s consent, where competent to consent, or parental consent, where the adolescent is not competent to consent. Where there is a dispute as to either competence, diagnosis or treatment, court authorisation prior to commencement of treatment is required.

A fairly small team, then, including a mental health clinician (making a diagnoses based on DSM-5) and a general practitioner could thus presecribe a consenting minor diagnosed with gender dysphoria with gender affirming hormones.

I’m not a paediatrician: I’m not going to argue with all the leading experts in the field saying that this is a good way to minimise harm for a teenager with gender dysphoria.

Concern, then, would be mainly misdiagnosis. The review procedures aren’t trivial but considering the clinical team involved might involve only 2 people it is of course possible that someone makes a mistake, which would be one argument for requiring approval from a broader panel.

Then again, GPs make decisions that can ultimately be life or death matters all the time. Then again again, given this is an evolving field, I would hope that these procedures are up for periodical review based on longitudinal studies of people diagnosed with GD who a) do and b) do not go on the gender affirming hormone programs. There have now been dozens of teenagers who have been on these programs who are now adults. How are they faring compared to those who did not do so? Better, worse, about the same? IDK but I hope someone is tracking it.

Dv is of course unaware, on the basis of his few minute’s reading, that there are very different views amongst the experts, and that some of the people in charge of therapy in the relevant institutions are themselves strong adherents of transgender ideology and much criticised for their approach.

Plenty of information on the Transgender Trend site:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/professionals-questioning-medical-transition-children/

Bubblecar said:

Dv is of course unaware, on the basis of his few minute’s reading, that there are very different views amongst the experts, and that some of the people in charge of therapy in the relevant institutions are themselves strong adherents of transgender ideology and much criticised for their approach.

Plenty of information on the Transgender Trend site:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/professionals-questioning-medical-transition-children/

Of course you’re joking and know that I’m well read on this, but the Australian Standards are an industry wide product, not just the results of narrow view within one organisation, and are based on the wide range of available evidence.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Dv is of course unaware, on the basis of his few minute’s reading, that there are very different views amongst the experts, and that some of the people in charge of therapy in the relevant institutions are themselves strong adherents of transgender ideology and much criticised for their approach.

Plenty of information on the Transgender Trend site:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/professionals-questioning-medical-transition-children/

Of course you’re joking and know that I’m well read on this, but the Australian Standards are an industry wide product, not just the results of narrow view within one organisation, and are based on the wide range of available evidence.

You should probably check them out. :)

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Dv is of course unaware, on the basis of his few minute’s reading, that there are very different views amongst the experts, and that some of the people in charge of therapy in the relevant institutions are themselves strong adherents of transgender ideology and much criticised for their approach.

Plenty of information on the Transgender Trend site:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/professionals-questioning-medical-transition-children/

Of course you’re joking and know that I’m well read on this, but the Australian Standards are an industry wide product, not just the results of narrow view within one organisation, and are based on the wide range of available evidence.

Joking? Well, I’ll assume your “well read” status is itself intended to be humorous :)

(And you’re hoping that we overlook your recent transition from parroting the trans activist spiel to becoming somewhat more critical, having read a bit of the other side. But don’t get me wrong, that’s a good thing and you deserve to be congratulated, to some extent :)).

dv said:

The inclination to hasten slowly with regard to matters of child safety is understandable. In this case a key document is the following standards publication:

https://www.rch.org.au/uploadedFiles/Main/Content/adolescent-medicine/australian-standards-of-care-and-treatment-guidelines-for-trans-and-gender-diverse-children-and-adolescents.pdf

Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines For trans and gender diverse children and adolescents
This is version 1.3 (2020) but 1.1 was published in 2017. It was based on the input of 40 Australasian paediatric researchers and other healthcare professionals.

The Lancet gave editorial approval to these Standards in 2018.
https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(18)31429-6.pdf

The standards were designed on the basis of minimising harm to young people with gender dysphoria.

Later in 2017, a ruling by the Family Court made it possible for minors with gender dysphoria to obtain gender affirming hormones without a court decision: all that would be required is an appropriate diagnosis and approval by a physician, consent of the patient and consent of the parents/guardians.

https://www.hrlc.org.au/human-rights-case-summaries/2017/12/20/family-court-of-australia-clears-the-way-for-young-trans-people-to-access-hormone-treatment-without-court-authorisation

——

Summary

The Full Family Court of Australia has held that Stage 2 hormone treatment for transgender young people does not require the court’s authorisation. Court intervention will remain necessary where there is controversy or disagreement between parents or between treating doctors and parents.

Until this case, it is understood that Australia was the only jurisdiction in the world to require transgender young people to seek court authorisation to access treatment. This has drawn criticism from doctors, parents and advocates for unnecessarily increasing mental health risks for transgender young people.

Facts

Kelvin was registered as female at birth, but has identified as transgender since he was nine years old. Kelvin was treated by a psychologist, a psychiatrist and an endocrinologist – all of whom agreed that Kelvin met the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria and recommended that Kelvin undertake Stage 2 treatment.

In January 2017, Kelvin’s father applied to the Family Court for an order that Kelvin is competent to consent to Stage 2 treatment. There was agreement between Kelvin, his father, his mother or his treating medical practitioners that the treatment was in Kelvin’s best interests and necessary to alleviate Kelvin’s symptoms of gender dysphoria. Kelvin is now 17 years old.

Children under the age of 18 who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria may wish to access the medical treatment to support them to transition and live as their affirmed gender. A young person experiencing gender dysphoria experiences intense discomfort and distress with their biological sex, and consequently, the sex characteristics and gender expression they physically exhibit. Stage one treatment (“puberty blockers”) for gender dysphoria involves supressing the onset puberty and, following the case of Re Lucy  FamCA 518), court authorisation is generally not required. However, the Family Court of Australia previously held in the case of Re Jamie  FamCAFC 110 that court authorisation must be obtained before children commence stage two treatment (cross-sex hormone treatment – i.e. oestrogen or testosterone) largely because, compared to Stage 1 treatment, the effects of cross-sex hormone treatment are irreversible.

This decision meant that where stage two treatment of a child with gender dysphoria was sought, the child had to apply to the Family Court for authority to commence this treatment. Since Re Jamie the Family Court has dealt with 63 cases involving stage two treatment for gender dysphoria. In 62 cases the treatment was allowed. For these cases the average wait between the time treatment was recommended and when the case was heard was eight months. During this time, many of the children experienced a decrease in their emotional well-being, including anxiety, depression and self-harm. The resources of clinicians and the hospital were diverted from providing treatment to preparing court reports and explaining and supporting families through the court process. Further, there was a significant financial cost for families in going to the Family Court to obtain authorisation.

Court authorisation not required in uncontroversial cases

The Court found authorisation is no longer required in circumstances where the child is Gillick competent to make the decision to commence treatment as determined by their medical practitioners. Court authorisation will also no longer be required in circumstances where the child is not Gillick competent but their parents’ consent and medical practitioners agree. However, court authorisation will still be required for a ward of the state or where there is a genuine dispute or controversy (e.g. if the parents or medical professionals disagree).

The majority found that there is “no question that the state of medical knowledge has evolved since the decision in Re Jamie”, particularly the increased knowledge of the risks associated with not treating a young person who has gender dysphoria. Here, the majority reflected that “t is readily apparent that the judicial understanding of Gender Dysphoria and its treatment have fallen behind the advances in medical science.”

The majority held that the therapeutic benefits of stage two treatment outweigh the risks and consequences involved in the irreversible nature of the treatment. The decision places emphasis on the need for proper medical assessment in determining treatment to be appropriate for the child.

The minority agreed that a Gillick competent child can consent to Stage 2 treatment without court authorisation.

Gillick competence mentioned above refers to “achieving a sufficient understanding and intelligence to enable him or her to understand fully what is proposed”.

Stage 2 here refers to hormonal treatments that will have irreversible results, applied after the age of 16, typically.

Now, it seems to me that an alternative to cutting the court out would be to try to improve their resources so that there wasn’t an average 8 month delay. However, given that they approved 62 out of 63 applicants, it might be that the results would have been the same anyway.

Per the Standards, then:

Criteria for adolescents to commence gender affirming hormone treatment using oestrogen or testosterone:
1. A diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in Adolescence, made by a mental health clinician with expertise in child and adolescent development, psychopathology and experience with children and adolescents with gender dysphoria.
2. Medical assessment including fertility preservation counselling has been completed by a general practitioner, paediatrician, adolescent physician or endocrinologist.
This assessment should include further fertility preservation counselling by a gynaecologist and/or andrologist as required with referral for fertility preservation when requested.
3. The treating team should agree that commencement of oestrogen or testosterone is in the best interest of the adolescent and informed consent from the adolescent has been obtained. Current Australian law requires the adolescent’s clinicians to ascertain whether or not an adolescent’s parents or legal guardians consent to the proposed treatment before an adolescent can access either pubertal suppression or hormone treatment. Where there is no dispute between the parents, the adolescent or the medical practitioner, the clinician may proceed on the basis of the adolescent’s consent, where competent to consent, or parental consent, where the adolescent is not competent to consent. Where there is a dispute as to either competence, diagnosis or treatment, court authorisation prior to commencement of treatment is required.

A fairly small team, then, including a mental health clinician (making a diagnoses based on DSM-5) and a general practitioner could thus presecribe a consenting minor diagnosed with gender dysphoria with gender affirming hormones.

I’m not a paediatrician: I’m not going to argue with all the leading experts in the field saying that this is a good way to minimise harm for a teenager with gender dysphoria.

Concern, then, would be mainly misdiagnosis. The review procedures aren’t trivial but considering the clinical team involved might involve only 2 people it is of course possible that someone makes a mistake, which would be one argument for requiring approval from a broader panel.

Then again, GPs make decisions that can ultimately be life or death matters all the time. Then again again, given this is an evolving field, I would hope that these procedures are up for periodical review based on longitudinal studies of people diagnosed with GD who a) do and b) do not go on the gender affirming hormone programs. There have now been dozens of teenagers who have been on these programs who are now adults. How are they faring compared to those who did not do so? Better, worse, about the same? IDK but I hope someone is tracking it.

I certainly hope that this particular Australian Standard isn’t under the loving care of SAI Global.

Mind you there ought to be a space for dissent in the sciences if only to keep the mainstream on their toes. There are experienced epidemiologists who think Covid was developed in a lab, there are some engineers who think conservation of momentum can be broken, and there are clinicians who vehemently oppose the Australian Standards. Not many, and you can’t stall forever waiting for a minority, but their ideas can be used to test the rigor of theain views.

I certainly hope that this particular Australian Standard isn’t under the loving care of SAI Global.

Heh.

dv said:

Mind you there ought to be a space for dissent in the sciences if only to keep the mainstream on their toes. There are experienced epidemiologists who think Covid was developed in a lab, there are some engineers who think conservation of momentum can be broken, and there are clinicians who vehemently oppose the Australian Standards. Not many, and you can’t stall forever waiting for a minority, but their ideas can be used to test the rigor of theain views.

Again, with further reading you might realise that much of the “mainstream” approach to therapy for gender dysphoria has been increasingly influenced by the transgender lobby, to the extent that those advocating a more sceptical and scientific perspective have found it difficult to find a platform for discussion.

But even the Guardian has reported on this occasionally, suspending their normal woke conformism:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/27/trans-lobby-pressure-pushing-young-people-to-transition

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Dv is of course unaware, on the basis of his few minute’s reading, that there are very different views amongst the experts, and that some of the people in charge of therapy in the relevant institutions are themselves strong adherents of transgender ideology and much criticised for their approach.

Plenty of information on the Transgender Trend site:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/professionals-questioning-medical-transition-children/

Of course you’re joking and know that I’m well read on this, but the Australian Standards are an industry wide product, not just the results of narrow view within one organisation, and are based on the wide range of available evidence.

Joking? Well, I’ll assume your “well read” status is itself intended to be humorous :)

(And you’re hoping that we overlook your recent transition from parroting the trans activist spiel to becoming somewhat more critical, having read a bit of the other side. But don’t get me wrong, that’s a good thing and you deserve to be congratulated, to some extent :)).

I think you just haven’t been following the ball, or perhaps have made incorrect assumptions? I’m still in the same headspace: it’s a complex matter, we’re all out here doing our best, trying to be empathetic and staying informed.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Of course you’re joking and know that I’m well read on this, but the Australian Standards are an industry wide product, not just the results of narrow view within one organisation, and are based on the wide range of available evidence.

Joking? Well, I’ll assume your “well read” status is itself intended to be humorous :)

(And you’re hoping that we overlook your recent transition from parroting the trans activist spiel to becoming somewhat more critical, having read a bit of the other side. But don’t get me wrong, that’s a good thing and you deserve to be congratulated, to some extent :)).

I think you just haven’t been following the ball, or perhaps have made incorrect assumptions? I’m still in the same headspace: it’s a complex matter, we’re all out here doing our best, trying to be empathetic and staying informed.

Don’t worry, I’ll allow you to rotate gracefully :)

It’s going to be a problem for many on the left though: How to reinvent themselves as gender-sceptics, without provoking too much eye-rolling from the rest of us.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Mind you there ought to be a space for dissent in the sciences if only to keep the mainstream on their toes. There are experienced epidemiologists who think Covid was developed in a lab, there are some engineers who think conservation of momentum can be broken, and there are clinicians who vehemently oppose the Australian Standards. Not many, and you can’t stall forever waiting for a minority, but their ideas can be used to test the rigor of theain views.

Again, with further reading you might realise that much of the “mainstream” approach to therapy for gender dysphoria has been increasingly influenced by the transgender lobby, to the extent that those advocating a more sceptical and scientific perspective have found it difficult to find a platform for discussion.

But even the Guardian has reported on this occasionally, suspending their normal woke conformism:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/27/trans-lobby-pressure-pushing-young-people-to-transition

And it is good and right that the Guardian give some space to the solitary expert quoted. As I say, the fringe needs to be given some space, as long as it’s not out of proportion with its representation in the industry as a whole.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Mind you there ought to be a space for dissent in the sciences if only to keep the mainstream on their toes. There are experienced epidemiologists who think Covid was developed in a lab, there are some engineers who think conservation of momentum can be broken, and there are clinicians who vehemently oppose the Australian Standards. Not many, and you can’t stall forever waiting for a minority, but their ideas can be used to test the rigor of theain views.

Again, with further reading you might realise that much of the “mainstream” approach to therapy for gender dysphoria has been increasingly influenced by the transgender lobby, to the extent that those advocating a more sceptical and scientific perspective have found it difficult to find a platform for discussion.

But even the Guardian has reported on this occasionally, suspending their normal woke conformism:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/27/trans-lobby-pressure-pushing-young-people-to-transition

And it is good and right that the Guardian give some space to the solitary expert quoted. As I say, the fringe needs to be given some space, as long as it’s not out of proportion with its representation in the industry as a whole.

This is what I mean about your claim to extensive knowledge on this subject being completely laughable.

Ah well :)

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Joking? Well, I’ll assume your “well read” status is itself intended to be humorous :)

(And you’re hoping that we overlook your recent transition from parroting the trans activist spiel to becoming somewhat more critical, having read a bit of the other side. But don’t get me wrong, that’s a good thing and you deserve to be congratulated, to some extent :)).

I think you just haven’t been following the ball, or perhaps have made incorrect assumptions? I’m still in the same headspace: it’s a complex matter, we’re all out here doing our best, trying to be empathetic and staying informed.

Don’t worry, I’ll allow you to rotate gracefully :)

It’s going to be a problem for many on the left though: How to reinvent themselves as gender-sceptics, without provoking too much eye-rolling from the rest of us.

Please don’t be gentle, we can all do with a skewer sometimes.
If you can find a specific quote from me that’s at odds with anything else I say, please present it.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

I think you just haven’t been following the ball, or perhaps have made incorrect assumptions? I’m still in the same headspace: it’s a complex matter, we’re all out here doing our best, trying to be empathetic and staying informed.

Don’t worry, I’ll allow you to rotate gracefully :)

It’s going to be a problem for many on the left though: How to reinvent themselves as gender-sceptics, without provoking too much eye-rolling from the rest of us.

Please don’t be gentle, we can all do with a skewer sometimes.
If you can find a specific quote from me that’s at odds with anything else I say, please present it.

Sorry, I have more interesting things to do with my time.

I recall that our first run in with regard to trans issues pertained to the socalled bathroom laws: in the UK and US there were laws mooted and in some case brought in that mandated people use the toilets of their birth sex. This struck as me as preposterous and probably dangerous: trans folks had been using toilets of their new gender for ages without issue and this seemed to be a solution in search of a problem.
It would basically force transdudes like this guy to use a woman’s toilet. How would that make anyone feel or be safer? Probably scare some people and get the guy hurt.

You and I had a bit of a barney about it. I haven’t resiled from my position on that at all, I still think it’s preposterousm

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Don’t worry, I’ll allow you to rotate gracefully :)

It’s going to be a problem for many on the left though: How to reinvent themselves as gender-sceptics, without provoking too much eye-rolling from the rest of us.

Please don’t be gentle, we can all do with a skewer sometimes.
If you can find a specific quote from me that’s at odds with anything else I say, please present it.

Sorry, I have more interesting things to do with my time.

Okay well I’ll just put it down as a good faith error and assume no malice.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Please don’t be gentle, we can all do with a skewer sometimes.
If you can find a specific quote from me that’s at odds with anything else I say, please present it.

Sorry, I have more interesting things to do with my time.

Okay well I’ll just put it down as a good faith error and assume no malice.

I admit I did make a good faith error: I assumed you were becoming more gender-critical, but I was reading too much into a slight shift in rhetoric.

Ultimately it is the evidence that matters. These are the kinds of studies that have led to the current main view. As mentioned before, to my mind longitudinal studies with a suitable control group will be crucial in assessing whether the current strategy is good in the long term.
Reduction in suicide risk was also a major selling point to the family court in 2017.

——

https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/97371
Gender Affirming Meds have drastic impact on suicide risk of transgender youth

Gender-affirming medical interventions may help protect transgender and nonbinary (TNB) youths from suicide, a study suggested.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments (adjusted OR 0.27, 95% CI 0.11-0.65), reported Diana M. Tordoff, MPH, of the University of Washington in Seattle, and colleagues.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423

——

dv said:

Ultimately it is the evidence that matters. These are the kinds of studies that have led to the current main view. As mentioned before, to my mind longitudinal studies with a suitable control group will be crucial in assessing whether the current strategy is good in the long term.
Reduction in suicide risk was also a major selling point to the family court in 2017.

——

https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/97371
Gender Affirming Meds have drastic impact on suicide risk of transgender youth

Gender-affirming medical interventions may help protect transgender and nonbinary (TNB) youths from suicide, a study suggested.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments (adjusted OR 0.27, 95% CI 0.11-0.65), reported Diana M. Tordoff, MPH, of the University of Washington in Seattle, and colleagues.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423

——

Diana Tordoff is a very active trans activist, like so many of the people in this particular health field.

They are highly motivated to recommend approaches that affirm the transgender ideology – that’s essentially what they see as their mission.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Ultimately it is the evidence that matters. These are the kinds of studies that have led to the current main view. As mentioned before, to my mind longitudinal studies with a suitable control group will be crucial in assessing whether the current strategy is good in the long term.
Reduction in suicide risk was also a major selling point to the family court in 2017.

——

https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/97371
Gender Affirming Meds have drastic impact on suicide risk of transgender youth

Gender-affirming medical interventions may help protect transgender and nonbinary (TNB) youths from suicide, a study suggested.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments (adjusted OR 0.27, 95% CI 0.11-0.65), reported Diana M. Tordoff, MPH, of the University of Washington in Seattle, and colleagues.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423

——

Diana Tordoff is a very active trans activist, like so many of the people in this particular health field.

They are highly motivated to recommend approaches that affirm the transgender ideology – that’s essentially what they see as their mission.

But which is cause and which is effect? Does the motivation derive from the evidence of the benefit, or does is the evidence of the benefit being concocted because of the motivation.

One thing that I do agree with Evans on is that it is no good at all if researchers are being labelled transphobic for presenting papers that are disuasive of gender affirming treatments. None of these studies on either side is particularly large, so with low n the certainty is low: you have to assume good faith and take a neutral view of the totality of evidence.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Ultimately it is the evidence that matters. These are the kinds of studies that have led to the current main view. As mentioned before, to my mind longitudinal studies with a suitable control group will be crucial in assessing whether the current strategy is good in the long term.
Reduction in suicide risk was also a major selling point to the family court in 2017.

——

https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/97371
Gender Affirming Meds have drastic impact on suicide risk of transgender youth

Gender-affirming medical interventions may help protect transgender and nonbinary (TNB) youths from suicide, a study suggested.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments (adjusted OR 0.27, 95% CI 0.11-0.65), reported Diana M. Tordoff, MPH, of the University of Washington in Seattle, and colleagues.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423

——

Diana Tordoff is a very active trans activist, like so many of the people in this particular health field.

They are highly motivated to recommend approaches that affirm the transgender ideology – that’s essentially what they see as their mission.

But which is cause and which is effect? Does the motivation derive from the evidence of the benefit, or does is the evidence of the benefit being concocted because of the motivation.

One thing that I do agree with Evans on is that it is no good at all if researchers are being labelled transphobic for presenting papers that are disuasive of gender affirming treatments. None of these studies on either side is particularly large, so with low n the certainty is low: you have to assume good faith and take a neutral view of the totality of evidence.

Governments and health authorities are slowly coming around to the idea that current procedures need a lot more scrutiny.

In the UK the Cass Review is underway and has recently been handed more powers by the health ministry.

The Cass Review – Independent review of gender identity services for children and young people

Sajid Javid plans review of impact of gender dysphoria treatment

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Diana Tordoff is a very active trans activist, like so many of the people in this particular health field.

They are highly motivated to recommend approaches that affirm the transgender ideology – that’s essentially what they see as their mission.

But which is cause and which is effect? Does the motivation derive from the evidence of the benefit, or does is the evidence of the benefit being concocted because of the motivation.

One thing that I do agree with Evans on is that it is no good at all if researchers are being labelled transphobic for presenting papers that are disuasive of gender affirming treatments. None of these studies on either side is particularly large, so with low n the certainty is low: you have to assume good faith and take a neutral view of the totality of evidence.

Governments and health authorities are slowly coming around to the idea that current procedures need a lot more scrutiny.

In the UK the Cass Review is underway and has recently been handed more powers by the health ministry.

The Cass Review – Independent review of gender identity services for children and young people

Sajid Javid plans review of impact of gender dysphoria treatment

Well I’m certainly not opposed to greater scrutiny.

Summary of some points from The Cass interim report. Note the point about lack of consensus and open discussion about the nature of gender dysphoria and therefore about the appropriate clinical response, as I’ve been emphasising, and you’ve been dismissing as a “fringe view”.

Key points – context

- The rapid increase in the number of children requiring support and the complex case-mix means that the current clinical model, with a single national provider, is not sustainable in the longer term.

- We need to know more about the population being referred and outcomes. There has not been routine and consistent data collection, which means it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways that children and young people take through the service.

-There is lack of consensus and open discussion about the nature of gender dysphoria and therefore about the appropriate clinical response.

-Because the specialist service has evolved rapidly and organically in response to demand, the clinical approach and overall service design has not been subjected to some of the normal quality controls that are typically applied when new or innovative treatments are introduced.  

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

Bubblecar said:

Summary of some points from The Cass interim report. Note the point about lack of consensus and open discussion about the nature of gender dysphoria and therefore about the appropriate clinical response, as I’ve been emphasising, and you’ve been dismissing as a “fringe view”.

Key points – context

- The rapid increase in the number of children requiring support and the complex case-mix means that the current clinical model, with a single national provider, is not sustainable in the longer term.

- We need to know more about the population being referred and outcomes. There has not been routine and consistent data collection, which means it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways that children and young people take through the service.

-There is lack of consensus and open discussion about the nature of gender dysphoria and therefore about the appropriate clinical response.

-Because the specialist service has evolved rapidly and organically in response to demand, the clinical approach and overall service design has not been subjected to some of the normal quality controls that are typically applied when new or innovative treatments are introduced.  

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

Thanks, it will be interesting to see the outcomes

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

Wasn’t it also men claiming to be women act rudely/inappropriately and say its because you are biased not me starting a fight.

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

Wasn’t it also men claiming to be women act rudely/inappropriately and say its because you are biased not me starting a fight.

OK, make that 4.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

Wasn’t it also men claiming to be women act rudely/inappropriately and say its because you are biased not me starting a fight.

OK, make that 4.

Don’t quote me on that

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

A butt pirate?

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

I mean I get what you are saying, but there is a massive difference between GID and childhood fantasy… your want to being a pirate did not affect your self esteem.. clearly.

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

You might like this podcast series then:

https://piratehistorypodcast.com

Arts said:

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

I mean I get what you are saying, but there is a massive difference between GID and childhood fantasy… your want to being a pirate did not affect your self esteem.. clearly.

Lucky he didn’t want to be a banker, get turned down for another job and thought about suicide

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

I think if that was all, we’d be in agreement.

I should post a manifesto.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

And a philosophical position that the concept of ‘gender’ is not scientifically rigorous whereas biological sex is.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

mind boggled

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

So you said…so what do you think you are now that you are all growed up?

Arts said:

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

I mean I get what you are saying, but there is a massive difference between GID and childhood fantasy… your want to being a pirate did not affect your self esteem.. clearly.

Well I was fortunate, back in those days they didn’t remove an eye and cut off a leg.

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

I think if that was all, we’d be in agreement.

I should post a manifesto.

OK, I cherry-picked the things that seem to me genuine problems.

I don’t agree with the extreme approach to these matters apparently supported by Mr. Car.

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

mind boggled

What do you mean?

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

mind boggled

What do you mean?

I mean I think I kind of knew that, I’m just surprised by that perspective is all.

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

mind boggled

What do you mean?

I mean I think I kind of knew that, I’m just surprised by that perspective is all.

You don’t think those are real problems?

Peak Warming Man said:

Arts said:

Peak Warming Man said:

I wanted to be a pirate when I was a kid.

I mean I get what you are saying, but there is a massive difference between GID and childhood fantasy… your want to being a pirate did not affect your self esteem.. clearly.

Well I was fortunate, back in those days they didn’t remove an eye and cut off a leg.

your flippancy on an issue that causes a lot of people a lot of serious harm is crappy

I think someone mentioned the Cass report.

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o629

By the way, things are different in different countries in terms of protocols. Some countries have stopped the puberty blockers and testosterone routine unless it is in an experimental protocol. I think that includes France, Sweden, Finland, and I think UK is also doing that. This means people do the full psychological workup as well. As I understand it, in the US there does not need to be a psych diagnosis, it is sufficient for the patient to “identify” as male for drug treatment to be commenced. I think it was like this in the UK for some time too.

The Cass Review website.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/

National Academy of Medicine in France

March 3, 2022

https://segm.org/France-cautions-regarding-puberty-blockers-and-cross-sex-hormones-for-youth

buffy said:

National Academy of Medicine in France

March 3, 2022

https://segm.org/France-cautions-regarding-puberty-blockers-and-cross-sex-hormones-for-youth

The patient in question would want to be sure its what they want as I imagine messing with hormones in youth could cause also sorts of problems.

Cymek said:

buffy said:

National Academy of Medicine in France

March 3, 2022

https://segm.org/France-cautions-regarding-puberty-blockers-and-cross-sex-hormones-for-youth

The patient in question would want to be sure its what they want as I imagine messing with hormones in youth could cause also sorts of problems.

It does. As I said yesterday, think about the young female athletes who were androgenized in the past. It also plays with your bone development and cardiovascular status.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

What do you mean?

I mean I think I kind of knew that, I’m just surprised by that perspective is all.

You don’t think those are real problems?

yes I do.. I mean my mind is boggling at BC’s position

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I mean I think I kind of knew that, I’m just surprised by that perspective is all.

You don’t think those are real problems?

yes I do.. I mean my mind is boggling at BC’s position

Well I agree it’s a little extreme.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I’m not sure I even really understand Bubblecar’s position on Trans issues… I am legitimately confused..

Seems fairly clear to me:
1. There are men who use claimed gender reassignment to allow them to sexually exploit women.
2. People who have male physical attributes have an unfair advantage if allowed to participate in female sports.
3. Women who are in need of support and assistance during or after abusive relationships should not have to accept this support from men, even if they do identify as women.

I think that covers the main points.

How about the subject of this particular thread?

4) In teenage circles in various countries, it’s currently fashionable for many – especially girls – to decide that they’re transgender, which has resulted in an explosion of youngsters being advised to seek “gender reassignment” by dubious trans-activist-aligned counsellors and health workers.

The great majority of these kids will soon grow out of this passing fad, but in many cases unfortunately not before they’ve been put on puberty blockers, hormones and other needless and harmful medications, and been introduced to breast-strapping etc as a prelude to surgical mutilation, which they may also face if they’re not quick enough to escape.

The victims of this “therapy” include autistic kids and others with various mental health problems that remain unaddressed, as well as gay kids who are pressured into accepting that their same-sex attraction means they’re “in the wrong body”.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

You don’t think those are real problems?

yes I do.. I mean my mind is boggling at BC’s position

Well I agree it’s a little extreme.

Not at all. It’s just that unlike you, diddly and dv, I know more about this topic and am aware of the more extreme beliefs and policies of the transgender movement and the degree of influence it has achieved in public policy in various countries.

This piece might as well go here, even though written by a male detransitioner.

A timely warning that having your dick cut off is not all beer & skittles.

What they took from us

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/what-they-took-from-us

I want to tell everyone what they took from us, what irreversible really means, and what that reality looks like for us. No one told me any of what I’m going to tell you now.

I have no sensation in my crotch region at all. You could stab me with a knife and I wouldn’t know. The entire area is numb, like it’s shell shocked and unable to comprehend what happened, even 4 years on.

No one told me that the base area of your penis is left, it can’t be removed – meaning you’re left with a literal stump inside that twitches. When you take Testosterone and your libido returns, you wake up with morning wood, without the tree. I wish this was a joke.

And that’s something that will never come back and one of the reason why I got surgery. My sex drive died about 6 months on HRT and at the time I was glad to be rid of it, but now 10 years later, I’m realising what I’m missing out on and what I won’t get back.

Because even if I had a sex drive, my neo vagina is so narrow and small, I wouldn’t even be able to have sex if I wanted too. And when I do use a small dilator, I have random pockets of sensation that only seem to pick up pain, rather than pleasure.

Any pleasure I do get comes from the Prostate that was moved forward and wrapped in glands from the penis, meaning anal sex isn’t possible and can risk further damage.

Then there’s the dreams. I dream often, that I have both sets of genitals, in the dream I’m distressed I have both, why both I think? I tell myself to wake up because I know its just a dream. And I awaken into a living nightmare.

In those moments of amnesia as I would wake, I would reach down to my crotch area expecting something that was there for 3 decades, and it’s not. My heart skips a beat, every single damn time.

Then there’s the act of going to the toilet. It takes me about 10 minutes to empty my bladder, it’s extremely slow, painful and because it dribbles no matter how much i relax, it will then just go all over that entire area, leaving me soaken.

So after cleaning myself up, I will find moments later that my underwear is wet – no matter how much I wiped, it slowly drips out for the best part of an hour. I never knew at 35 I ran the risk like smelling like piss everywhere I went.

Now i get to the point where I’m detransitioned and the realisation that this is permanent is catching up with me. During transition, I was obsessive and deeply unwell, I cannot believe they were allowed to do this to me, even after all the red flags.

I wasn’t even asked if I wanted to freeze sperm or want kids. In my obsessive, deeply unwell state they just nodded along and didn’t tell me the realities, what life would be like.

And finally, there’s dilation, which is like some sort of demonic ceremony where you impale yourself for 20 agonising minutes to remind you of your own stupidity.

This isn’t even the half of it. And this isn’t regretted either, this is grief and anger. Fuck everyone who let this happen.

When I lost 1600ml blood during surgery, it took days to get a blood transfusion. The surgery lasted 3 hours longer. They joked about the blood loss too.

Bubblecar said:

This piece might as well go here, even though written by a male detransitioner.

A timely warning that having your dick cut off is not all beer & skittles.

What they took from us

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/what-they-took-from-us

I want to tell everyone what they took from us, what irreversible really means, and what that reality looks like for us. No one told me any of what I’m going to tell you now.

I have no sensation in my crotch region at all. You could stab me with a knife and I wouldn’t know. The entire area is numb, like it’s shell shocked and unable to comprehend what happened, even 4 years on.

No one told me that the base area of your penis is left, it can’t be removed – meaning you’re left with a literal stump inside that twitches. When you take Testosterone and your libido returns, you wake up with morning wood, without the tree. I wish this was a joke.

And that’s something that will never come back and one of the reason why I got surgery. My sex drive died about 6 months on HRT and at the time I was glad to be rid of it, but now 10 years later, I’m realising what I’m missing out on and what I won’t get back.

Because even if I had a sex drive, my neo vagina is so narrow and small, I wouldn’t even be able to have sex if I wanted too. And when I do use a small dilator, I have random pockets of sensation that only seem to pick up pain, rather than pleasure.

Any pleasure I do get comes from the Prostate that was moved forward and wrapped in glands from the penis, meaning anal sex isn’t possible and can risk further damage.

Then there’s the dreams. I dream often, that I have both sets of genitals, in the dream I’m distressed I have both, why both I think? I tell myself to wake up because I know its just a dream. And I awaken into a living nightmare.

In those moments of amnesia as I would wake, I would reach down to my crotch area expecting something that was there for 3 decades, and it’s not. My heart skips a beat, every single damn time.

Then there’s the act of going to the toilet. It takes me about 10 minutes to empty my bladder, it’s extremely slow, painful and because it dribbles no matter how much i relax, it will then just go all over that entire area, leaving me soaken.

So after cleaning myself up, I will find moments later that my underwear is wet – no matter how much I wiped, it slowly drips out for the best part of an hour. I never knew at 35 I ran the risk like smelling like piss everywhere I went.

Now i get to the point where I’m detransitioned and the realisation that this is permanent is catching up with me. During transition, I was obsessive and deeply unwell, I cannot believe they were allowed to do this to me, even after all the red flags.

I wasn’t even asked if I wanted to freeze sperm or want kids. In my obsessive, deeply unwell state they just nodded along and didn’t tell me the realities, what life would be like.

And finally, there’s dilation, which is like some sort of demonic ceremony where you impale yourself for 20 agonising minutes to remind you of your own stupidity.

This isn’t even the half of it. And this isn’t regretted either, this is grief and anger. Fuck everyone who let this happen.

When I lost 1600ml blood during surgery, it took days to get a blood transfusion. The surgery lasted 3 hours longer. They joked about the blood loss too.

Unpleasant, so they are an in-between person with neither functional sex organs or bladder it seems.
What’s it like going the other way I wonder

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

This piece might as well go here, even though written by a male detransitioner.

A timely warning that having your dick cut off is not all beer & skittles.

What they took from us

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/what-they-took-from-us

I want to tell everyone what they took from us, what irreversible really means, and what that reality looks like for us. No one told me any of what I’m going to tell you now.

I have no sensation in my crotch region at all. You could stab me with a knife and I wouldn’t know. The entire area is numb, like it’s shell shocked and unable to comprehend what happened, even 4 years on.

No one told me that the base area of your penis is left, it can’t be removed – meaning you’re left with a literal stump inside that twitches. When you take Testosterone and your libido returns, you wake up with morning wood, without the tree. I wish this was a joke.

And that’s something that will never come back and one of the reason why I got surgery. My sex drive died about 6 months on HRT and at the time I was glad to be rid of it, but now 10 years later, I’m realising what I’m missing out on and what I won’t get back.

Because even if I had a sex drive, my neo vagina is so narrow and small, I wouldn’t even be able to have sex if I wanted too. And when I do use a small dilator, I have random pockets of sensation that only seem to pick up pain, rather than pleasure.

Any pleasure I do get comes from the Prostate that was moved forward and wrapped in glands from the penis, meaning anal sex isn’t possible and can risk further damage.

Then there’s the dreams. I dream often, that I have both sets of genitals, in the dream I’m distressed I have both, why both I think? I tell myself to wake up because I know its just a dream. And I awaken into a living nightmare.

In those moments of amnesia as I would wake, I would reach down to my crotch area expecting something that was there for 3 decades, and it’s not. My heart skips a beat, every single damn time.

Then there’s the act of going to the toilet. It takes me about 10 minutes to empty my bladder, it’s extremely slow, painful and because it dribbles no matter how much i relax, it will then just go all over that entire area, leaving me soaken.

So after cleaning myself up, I will find moments later that my underwear is wet – no matter how much I wiped, it slowly drips out for the best part of an hour. I never knew at 35 I ran the risk like smelling like piss everywhere I went.

Now i get to the point where I’m detransitioned and the realisation that this is permanent is catching up with me. During transition, I was obsessive and deeply unwell, I cannot believe they were allowed to do this to me, even after all the red flags.

I wasn’t even asked if I wanted to freeze sperm or want kids. In my obsessive, deeply unwell state they just nodded along and didn’t tell me the realities, what life would be like.

And finally, there’s dilation, which is like some sort of demonic ceremony where you impale yourself for 20 agonising minutes to remind you of your own stupidity.

This isn’t even the half of it. And this isn’t regretted either, this is grief and anger. Fuck everyone who let this happen.

When I lost 1600ml blood during surgery, it took days to get a blood transfusion. The surgery lasted 3 hours longer. They joked about the blood loss too.

Unpleasant, so they are an in-between person with neither functional sex organs or bladder it seems.
What’s it like going the other way I wonder

It would depend on how much surgery you have.

buffy said:

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

This piece might as well go here, even though written by a male detransitioner.

A timely warning that having your dick cut off is not all beer & skittles.

What they took from us

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/what-they-took-from-us

I want to tell everyone what they took from us, what irreversible really means, and what that reality looks like for us. No one told me any of what I’m going to tell you now.

I have no sensation in my crotch region at all. You could stab me with a knife and I wouldn’t know. The entire area is numb, like it’s shell shocked and unable to comprehend what happened, even 4 years on.

No one told me that the base area of your penis is left, it can’t be removed – meaning you’re left with a literal stump inside that twitches. When you take Testosterone and your libido returns, you wake up with morning wood, without the tree. I wish this was a joke.

And that’s something that will never come back and one of the reason why I got surgery. My sex drive died about 6 months on HRT and at the time I was glad to be rid of it, but now 10 years later, I’m realising what I’m missing out on and what I won’t get back.

Because even if I had a sex drive, my neo vagina is so narrow and small, I wouldn’t even be able to have sex if I wanted too. And when I do use a small dilator, I have random pockets of sensation that only seem to pick up pain, rather than pleasure.

Any pleasure I do get comes from the Prostate that was moved forward and wrapped in glands from the penis, meaning anal sex isn’t possible and can risk further damage.

Then there’s the dreams. I dream often, that I have both sets of genitals, in the dream I’m distressed I have both, why both I think? I tell myself to wake up because I know its just a dream. And I awaken into a living nightmare.

In those moments of amnesia as I would wake, I would reach down to my crotch area expecting something that was there for 3 decades, and it’s not. My heart skips a beat, every single damn time.

Then there’s the act of going to the toilet. It takes me about 10 minutes to empty my bladder, it’s extremely slow, painful and because it dribbles no matter how much i relax, it will then just go all over that entire area, leaving me soaken.

So after cleaning myself up, I will find moments later that my underwear is wet – no matter how much I wiped, it slowly drips out for the best part of an hour. I never knew at 35 I ran the risk like smelling like piss everywhere I went.

Now i get to the point where I’m detransitioned and the realisation that this is permanent is catching up with me. During transition, I was obsessive and deeply unwell, I cannot believe they were allowed to do this to me, even after all the red flags.

I wasn’t even asked if I wanted to freeze sperm or want kids. In my obsessive, deeply unwell state they just nodded along and didn’t tell me the realities, what life would be like.

And finally, there’s dilation, which is like some sort of demonic ceremony where you impale yourself for 20 agonising minutes to remind you of your own stupidity.

This isn’t even the half of it. And this isn’t regretted either, this is grief and anger. Fuck everyone who let this happen.

When I lost 1600ml blood during surgery, it took days to get a blood transfusion. The surgery lasted 3 hours longer. They joked about the blood loss too.

Unpleasant, so they are an in-between person with neither functional sex organs or bladder it seems.
What’s it like going the other way I wonder

It would depend on how much surgery you have.

It could be better with more skilled surgeons ?
Has it become a half arse approach like a conveyer belt of ill informed people

ah well sometimes people make decisions and sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people are unhappy with the result of their decisions or mistakes

Suicide rates for those diagnosed with GD but not receiving gender affirming treatments are much higher than those that do, but (shrugs) I guess we ain’t going to have a lot of pieces by people who regret committing suicide.

SCIENCE said:

ah well sometimes people make decisions and sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people are unhappy with the result of their decisions or mistakes

Unfortunately we’re talking people who are often deeply troubled, who consult health workers entrusted with making them better, but who have their own agenda to run.

Bubblecar said:

SCIENCE said:

ah well sometimes people make decisions and sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people are unhappy with the result of their decisions or mistakes

Unfortunately we’re talking people who are often deeply troubled, who consult health workers entrusted with making them better, but who have their own agenda to run.

this is what informed consent is for surely

dv said:

Suicide rates for those diagnosed with GD but not receiving gender affirming treatments are much higher than those that do, but (shrugs) I guess we ain’t going to have a lot of pieces by people who regret committing suicide.

I wouldn’t regard those statistics as reliable, since there’s a common complaint that hard data on these matters is either not being collected, or only for a few.

And if there is any correlation it might simply be due to the “gender-affirmed” patients receiving some kind of attention, as opposed to nothing.

SCIENCE said:

Bubblecar said:

SCIENCE said:

ah well sometimes people make decisions and sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people are unhappy with the result of their decisions or mistakes

Unfortunately we’re talking people who are often deeply troubled, who consult health workers entrusted with making them better, but who have their own agenda to run.

this is what informed consent is for surely

That writer pointed out that he wasn’t informed about many aspects of the post-operative reality.

On another note, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit has found that a notorious article fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy. Ofcom has yet to make a ruling.

The principal issue of complaint in relation to accuracy was that the evidential basis for suggesting pressure from trans women posed a significant problem for lesbians was inadequate. In this connection, the Head of the ECU noted that the headline “We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women” (which was not written by the author of the article) gave the impression that the focus of the article would be on pressure applied by trans women, whereas its focus was at least as much on internalised pressure experienced by some lesbians as a result of a climate of opinion (as they perceived it) within the LGBT community, rather than pressure directly applied by trans women.

The Get the L Out questionnaire’s findings, as reported in the article (for example, that 56% of those who responded “reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner”) tended to give the impression that pressure to have sex with trans women, whether from individual trans women or from an activist consensus, was a widespread, or even a majority, experience among lesbians. In the Head of the ECU’s judgement, however, it provided an insufficient basis for that impression. The questionnaire was sent to a small number of “women only” and “lesbian only” groups, and only around a third of its 80 respondents were from the UK. The article included some caveats, for example by acknowledging that “the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community” and by describing Get the L Out as an organisation whose members “believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement” and which had been accused of “bigotry, ignorance and hate”. However, these did not seem to us to go far enough to make clear to readers the survey’s lack of statistical validity or the extent to which Get the L Out has an agenda (as an organisation which believes “transactivism erases lesbians, and silences and demonises lesbians who dare to speak out”) which the results of the survey appeared to serve. To the extent that the article failed to exercise the appropriate degree of scepticism in its treatment of the survey, it fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy.

The ECU did not find that the article fell below BBC’s standards in some other respects. With regard to the extent that the original article relied on the views of sexual assault perpetrator Lily Cade, the Head opined that:

They have confirmed there was no indication in their dealings with her which would have alerted them to the fact she held particular views about trans women, or might have any mental health issues. They acknowledged, however, that she had admitted to behaviour which she now recognised as sexually abusive in a Zoom conversation in September 2020, which had escaped attention by the time the article was ready for publication over a year later. In the context of the article, this information would have helped readers to judge her comments in the light of her own actions, and it was regrettable that it was not included. Once the issues of Ms Cade’s sexual conduct and subsequent online comments came to light, however, her contribution was removed from the article, and the following update was added to it on 4 November 2021:

We have updated this article, published last week, to remove a contribution from one individual in light of comments she has published on blog posts in recent days, which we have been able to verify.

We acknowledge that an admission of inappropriate behaviour by the same contributor should have been included in the original article.

Bubblecar said:

SCIENCE said:

Bubblecar said:

Unfortunately we’re talking people who are often deeply troubled, who consult health workers entrusted with making them better, but who have their own agenda to run.

this is what informed consent is for surely

That writer pointed out that he wasn’t informed about many aspects of the post-operative reality.

That’s extremely poor, it makes me wonder if its like look enhancing plastic surgery, were assumptions don’t reflect reality.
You think perhaps it would include talking to other people who have had the surgery before you make the final decision

dv said:

On another note, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit has found that a notorious article fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy. Ofcom has yet to make a ruling.

The principal issue of complaint in relation to accuracy was that the evidential basis for suggesting pressure from trans women posed a significant problem for lesbians was inadequate. In this connection, the Head of the ECU noted that the headline “We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women” (which was not written by the author of the article) gave the impression that the focus of the article would be on pressure applied by trans women, whereas its focus was at least as much on internalised pressure experienced by some lesbians as a result of a climate of opinion (as they perceived it) within the LGBT community, rather than pressure directly applied by trans women.

The Get the L Out questionnaire’s findings, as reported in the article (for example, that 56% of those who responded “reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner”) tended to give the impression that pressure to have sex with trans women, whether from individual trans women or from an activist consensus, was a widespread, or even a majority, experience among lesbians. In the Head of the ECU’s judgement, however, it provided an insufficient basis for that impression. The questionnaire was sent to a small number of “women only” and “lesbian only” groups, and only around a third of its 80 respondents were from the UK. The article included some caveats, for example by acknowledging that “the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community” and by describing Get the L Out as an organisation whose members “believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement” and which had been accused of “bigotry, ignorance and hate”. However, these did not seem to us to go far enough to make clear to readers the survey’s lack of statistical validity or the extent to which Get the L Out has an agenda (as an organisation which believes “transactivism erases lesbians, and silences and demonises lesbians who dare to speak out”) which the results of the survey appeared to serve. To the extent that the article failed to exercise the appropriate degree of scepticism in its treatment of the survey, it fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy.

The ECU did not find that the article fell below BBC’s standards in some other respects. With regard to the extent that the original article relied on the views of sexual assault perpetrator Lily Cade, the Head opined that:

They have confirmed there was no indication in their dealings with her which would have alerted them to the fact she held particular views about trans women, or might have any mental health issues. They acknowledged, however, that she had admitted to behaviour which she now recognised as sexually abusive in a Zoom conversation in September 2020, which had escaped attention by the time the article was ready for publication over a year later. In the context of the article, this information would have helped readers to judge her comments in the light of her own actions, and it was regrettable that it was not included. Once the issues of Ms Cade’s sexual conduct and subsequent online comments came to light, however, her contribution was removed from the article, and the following update was added to it on 4 November 2021:

We have updated this article, published last week, to remove a contribution from one individual in light of comments she has published on blog posts in recent days, which we have been able to verify.

We acknowledge that an admission of inappropriate behaviour by the same contributor should have been included in the original article.

That article was a very timid acknowledgement of what lesbians have known and experienced for years.

Of course it was bound to be regretted by the BBC, because people like dv are determined that the male TRA stance must prevail over the opinions and experiences of women.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

On another note, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit has found that a notorious article fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy. Ofcom has yet to make a ruling.

The principal issue of complaint in relation to accuracy was that the evidential basis for suggesting pressure from trans women posed a significant problem for lesbians was inadequate. In this connection, the Head of the ECU noted that the headline “We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women” (which was not written by the author of the article) gave the impression that the focus of the article would be on pressure applied by trans women, whereas its focus was at least as much on internalised pressure experienced by some lesbians as a result of a climate of opinion (as they perceived it) within the LGBT community, rather than pressure directly applied by trans women.

The Get the L Out questionnaire’s findings, as reported in the article (for example, that 56% of those who responded “reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner”) tended to give the impression that pressure to have sex with trans women, whether from individual trans women or from an activist consensus, was a widespread, or even a majority, experience among lesbians. In the Head of the ECU’s judgement, however, it provided an insufficient basis for that impression. The questionnaire was sent to a small number of “women only” and “lesbian only” groups, and only around a third of its 80 respondents were from the UK. The article included some caveats, for example by acknowledging that “the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community” and by describing Get the L Out as an organisation whose members “believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement” and which had been accused of “bigotry, ignorance and hate”. However, these did not seem to us to go far enough to make clear to readers the survey’s lack of statistical validity or the extent to which Get the L Out has an agenda (as an organisation which believes “transactivism erases lesbians, and silences and demonises lesbians who dare to speak out”) which the results of the survey appeared to serve. To the extent that the article failed to exercise the appropriate degree of scepticism in its treatment of the survey, it fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy.

The ECU did not find that the article fell below BBC’s standards in some other respects. With regard to the extent that the original article relied on the views of sexual assault perpetrator Lily Cade, the Head opined that:

They have confirmed there was no indication in their dealings with her which would have alerted them to the fact she held particular views about trans women, or might have any mental health issues. They acknowledged, however, that she had admitted to behaviour which she now recognised as sexually abusive in a Zoom conversation in September 2020, which had escaped attention by the time the article was ready for publication over a year later. In the context of the article, this information would have helped readers to judge her comments in the light of her own actions, and it was regrettable that it was not included. Once the issues of Ms Cade’s sexual conduct and subsequent online comments came to light, however, her contribution was removed from the article, and the following update was added to it on 4 November 2021:

We have updated this article, published last week, to remove a contribution from one individual in light of comments she has published on blog posts in recent days, which we have been able to verify.

We acknowledge that an admission of inappropriate behaviour by the same contributor should have been included in the original article.

That article was a very timid acknowledgement of what lesbians have known and experienced for years.

Of course it was bound to be regretted by the BBC, because people like dv are determined that the male TRA stance must prevail over the opinions and experiences of women.

I’d assume having sex with someone is a personal preference not some anti whatever stance in most cases and even then well its not the other person business if you don’t want to do it.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

On another note, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit has found that a notorious article fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy. Ofcom has yet to make a ruling.

The principal issue of complaint in relation to accuracy was that the evidential basis for suggesting pressure from trans women posed a significant problem for lesbians was inadequate. In this connection, the Head of the ECU noted that the headline “We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women” (which was not written by the author of the article) gave the impression that the focus of the article would be on pressure applied by trans women, whereas its focus was at least as much on internalised pressure experienced by some lesbians as a result of a climate of opinion (as they perceived it) within the LGBT community, rather than pressure directly applied by trans women.

The Get the L Out questionnaire’s findings, as reported in the article (for example, that 56% of those who responded “reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner”) tended to give the impression that pressure to have sex with trans women, whether from individual trans women or from an activist consensus, was a widespread, or even a majority, experience among lesbians. In the Head of the ECU’s judgement, however, it provided an insufficient basis for that impression. The questionnaire was sent to a small number of “women only” and “lesbian only” groups, and only around a third of its 80 respondents were from the UK. The article included some caveats, for example by acknowledging that “the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community” and by describing Get the L Out as an organisation whose members “believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement” and which had been accused of “bigotry, ignorance and hate”. However, these did not seem to us to go far enough to make clear to readers the survey’s lack of statistical validity or the extent to which Get the L Out has an agenda (as an organisation which believes “transactivism erases lesbians, and silences and demonises lesbians who dare to speak out”) which the results of the survey appeared to serve. To the extent that the article failed to exercise the appropriate degree of scepticism in its treatment of the survey, it fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy.

The ECU did not find that the article fell below BBC’s standards in some other respects. With regard to the extent that the original article relied on the views of sexual assault perpetrator Lily Cade, the Head opined that:

They have confirmed there was no indication in their dealings with her which would have alerted them to the fact she held particular views about trans women, or might have any mental health issues. They acknowledged, however, that she had admitted to behaviour which she now recognised as sexually abusive in a Zoom conversation in September 2020, which had escaped attention by the time the article was ready for publication over a year later. In the context of the article, this information would have helped readers to judge her comments in the light of her own actions, and it was regrettable that it was not included. Once the issues of Ms Cade’s sexual conduct and subsequent online comments came to light, however, her contribution was removed from the article, and the following update was added to it on 4 November 2021:

We have updated this article, published last week, to remove a contribution from one individual in light of comments she has published on blog posts in recent days, which we have been able to verify.

We acknowledge that an admission of inappropriate behaviour by the same contributor should have been included in the original article.

That article was a very timid acknowledgement of what lesbians have known and experienced for years.

Of course it was bound to be regretted by the BBC, because people like dv are determined that the male TRA stance must prevail over the opinions and experiences of women.

Your imagined uniformity of thought in certain groups is troubling. If I didn’t know better I’d think you were just plain ignorant of the fact that there are varied views on transfolks among lesbians. I think you need to read more broadly.

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

On another note, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit has found that a notorious article fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy. Ofcom has yet to make a ruling.

The principal issue of complaint in relation to accuracy was that the evidential basis for suggesting pressure from trans women posed a significant problem for lesbians was inadequate. In this connection, the Head of the ECU noted that the headline “We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women” (which was not written by the author of the article) gave the impression that the focus of the article would be on pressure applied by trans women, whereas its focus was at least as much on internalised pressure experienced by some lesbians as a result of a climate of opinion (as they perceived it) within the LGBT community, rather than pressure directly applied by trans women.

The Get the L Out questionnaire’s findings, as reported in the article (for example, that 56% of those who responded “reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner”) tended to give the impression that pressure to have sex with trans women, whether from individual trans women or from an activist consensus, was a widespread, or even a majority, experience among lesbians. In the Head of the ECU’s judgement, however, it provided an insufficient basis for that impression. The questionnaire was sent to a small number of “women only” and “lesbian only” groups, and only around a third of its 80 respondents were from the UK. The article included some caveats, for example by acknowledging that “the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community” and by describing Get the L Out as an organisation whose members “believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement” and which had been accused of “bigotry, ignorance and hate”. However, these did not seem to us to go far enough to make clear to readers the survey’s lack of statistical validity or the extent to which Get the L Out has an agenda (as an organisation which believes “transactivism erases lesbians, and silences and demonises lesbians who dare to speak out”) which the results of the survey appeared to serve. To the extent that the article failed to exercise the appropriate degree of scepticism in its treatment of the survey, it fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy.

The ECU did not find that the article fell below BBC’s standards in some other respects. With regard to the extent that the original article relied on the views of sexual assault perpetrator Lily Cade, the Head opined that:

They have confirmed there was no indication in their dealings with her which would have alerted them to the fact she held particular views about trans women, or might have any mental health issues. They acknowledged, however, that she had admitted to behaviour which she now recognised as sexually abusive in a Zoom conversation in September 2020, which had escaped attention by the time the article was ready for publication over a year later. In the context of the article, this information would have helped readers to judge her comments in the light of her own actions, and it was regrettable that it was not included. Once the issues of Ms Cade’s sexual conduct and subsequent online comments came to light, however, her contribution was removed from the article, and the following update was added to it on 4 November 2021:

We have updated this article, published last week, to remove a contribution from one individual in light of comments she has published on blog posts in recent days, which we have been able to verify.

We acknowledge that an admission of inappropriate behaviour by the same contributor should have been included in the original article.

That article was a very timid acknowledgement of what lesbians have known and experienced for years.

Of course it was bound to be regretted by the BBC, because people like dv are determined that the male TRA stance must prevail over the opinions and experiences of women.

I’d assume having sex with someone is a personal preference not some anti whatever stance in most cases and even then well its not the other person business if you don’t want to do it.

Not so long ago, it was accepted that lesbians and gays are homosexual, i.e., sexually same-sex attracted.

Now same-sex attraction is being condemned as a form of racism, bigotry etc.

Why? Essentially because: straight men are being left out!

Why don’t lesbians want to have sex with straight men who aren’t getting any, if those men have gone to the bother of painting their nails and talking in a lady voice!

dv said:

Suicide rates for those diagnosed with GD but not receiving gender affirming treatments are much higher than those that do, but (shrugs) I guess we ain’t going to have a lot of pieces by people who regret committing suicide.

Hang on, I read the rates recently. I can’t remember where. I’ll see if I can find it.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

On another note, the BBC’s Executive Complaints Unit has found that a notorious article fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy. Ofcom has yet to make a ruling.

The principal issue of complaint in relation to accuracy was that the evidential basis for suggesting pressure from trans women posed a significant problem for lesbians was inadequate. In this connection, the Head of the ECU noted that the headline “We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women” (which was not written by the author of the article) gave the impression that the focus of the article would be on pressure applied by trans women, whereas its focus was at least as much on internalised pressure experienced by some lesbians as a result of a climate of opinion (as they perceived it) within the LGBT community, rather than pressure directly applied by trans women.

The Get the L Out questionnaire’s findings, as reported in the article (for example, that 56% of those who responded “reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner”) tended to give the impression that pressure to have sex with trans women, whether from individual trans women or from an activist consensus, was a widespread, or even a majority, experience among lesbians. In the Head of the ECU’s judgement, however, it provided an insufficient basis for that impression. The questionnaire was sent to a small number of “women only” and “lesbian only” groups, and only around a third of its 80 respondents were from the UK. The article included some caveats, for example by acknowledging that “the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community” and by describing Get the L Out as an organisation whose members “believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement” and which had been accused of “bigotry, ignorance and hate”. However, these did not seem to us to go far enough to make clear to readers the survey’s lack of statistical validity or the extent to which Get the L Out has an agenda (as an organisation which believes “transactivism erases lesbians, and silences and demonises lesbians who dare to speak out”) which the results of the survey appeared to serve. To the extent that the article failed to exercise the appropriate degree of scepticism in its treatment of the survey, it fell below the BBC’s standards of due accuracy.

The ECU did not find that the article fell below BBC’s standards in some other respects. With regard to the extent that the original article relied on the views of sexual assault perpetrator Lily Cade, the Head opined that:

They have confirmed there was no indication in their dealings with her which would have alerted them to the fact she held particular views about trans women, or might have any mental health issues. They acknowledged, however, that she had admitted to behaviour which she now recognised as sexually abusive in a Zoom conversation in September 2020, which had escaped attention by the time the article was ready for publication over a year later. In the context of the article, this information would have helped readers to judge her comments in the light of her own actions, and it was regrettable that it was not included. Once the issues of Ms Cade’s sexual conduct and subsequent online comments came to light, however, her contribution was removed from the article, and the following update was added to it on 4 November 2021:

We have updated this article, published last week, to remove a contribution from one individual in light of comments she has published on blog posts in recent days, which we have been able to verify.

We acknowledge that an admission of inappropriate behaviour by the same contributor should have been included in the original article.

That article was a very timid acknowledgement of what lesbians have known and experienced for years.

Of course it was bound to be regretted by the BBC, because people like dv are determined that the male TRA stance must prevail over the opinions and experiences of women.

Your imagined uniformity of thought in certain groups is troubling. If I didn’t know better I’d think you were just plain ignorant of the fact that there are varied views on transfolks among lesbians. I think you need to read more broadly.

I’m aware that there are lesbians who accept the transgender hegemony, at least in their public dealings, and there are doubtless varied reasons for that.

In a lot of cases it will be because they don’t want to suffer the social Coventry experienced by many GC people, who are very quickly turned on by the woke virtue signallers.

That situation is slowly changing though, as more people become aware of what’s going on.

buffy said:

dv said:

Suicide rates for those diagnosed with GD but not receiving gender affirming treatments are much higher than those that do, but (shrugs) I guess we ain’t going to have a lot of pieces by people who regret committing suicide.

Hang on, I read the rates recently. I can’t remember where. I’ll see if I can find it.

It’s in this very thread.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments

dv said:

buffy said:

dv said:

Suicide rates for those diagnosed with GD but not receiving gender affirming treatments are much higher than those that do, but (shrugs) I guess we ain’t going to have a lot of pieces by people who regret committing suicide.

Hang on, I read the rates recently. I can’t remember where. I’ll see if I can find it.

It’s in this very thread.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments

No, I read something that said the rates are not higher.

dv said:

buffy said:

dv said:

Suicide rates for those diagnosed with GD but not receiving gender affirming treatments are much higher than those that do, but (shrugs) I guess we ain’t going to have a lot of pieces by people who regret committing suicide.

Hang on, I read the rates recently. I can’t remember where. I’ll see if I can find it.

It’s in this very thread.

In a prospective cohort study of 104 such youth, those who initiated puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones had a 73% lower odds of suicidality versus youth who didn’t have any gender-affirming treatments

Small numbers, loaded terms, no detail.

And they don’t tell you that those receiving “treatments” would also have been strenuously love-bombed and attention-lavished, at least for long enough to get them onto the treatments.

It does wonder how a piece that breached standards in such obvious ways got past the editors first time round, and honestly a google search would have turned up Cade’s sexual assault history in seconds. It’s probably a good lesson in the importance of self-criticality.

Found it.

https://segm.org/trans_youth_suicide_study

In short…the data is sparse, dodgy in many instances (suicidality as against completed suicide, asking people by phone or internet survey, not looking at depression/ADHD/autism in the same people), and needs to be done properly.

buffy said:

Found it.

https://segm.org/trans_youth_suicide_study

In short…the data is sparse, dodgy in many instances (suicidality as against completed suicide, asking people by phone or internet survey, not looking at depression/ADHD/autism in the same people), and needs to be done properly.

Certainly would be good to see some bigger studies, like n>1000.

Bubblecar said:

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

That article was a very timid acknowledgement of what lesbians have known and experienced for years.

Of course it was bound to be regretted by the BBC, because people like dv are determined that the male TRA stance must prevail over the opinions and experiences of women.

I’d assume having sex with someone is a personal preference not some anti whatever stance in most cases and even then well its not the other person business if you don’t want to do it.

Not so long ago, it was accepted that lesbians and gays are homosexual, i.e., sexually same-sex attracted.

Now same-sex attraction is being condemned as a form of racism, bigotry etc.

Why? Essentially because: straight men are being left out!

Why don’t lesbians want to have sex with straight men who aren’t getting any, if those men have gone to the bother of painting their nails and talking in a lady voice!

what the?

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

Cymek said:

I’d assume having sex with someone is a personal preference not some anti whatever stance in most cases and even then well its not the other person business if you don’t want to do it.

Not so long ago, it was accepted that lesbians and gays are homosexual, i.e., sexually same-sex attracted.

Now same-sex attraction is being condemned as a form of racism, bigotry etc.

Why? Essentially because: straight men are being left out!

Why don’t lesbians want to have sex with straight men who aren’t getting any, if those men have gone to the bother of painting their nails and talking in a lady voice!

what the?

He saw it on Newsmax

dv said:

It does wonder how a piece that breached standards in such obvious ways got past the editors first time round, and honestly a google search would have turned up Cade’s sexual assault history in seconds. It’s probably a good lesson in the importance of self-criticality.

Yes Mr Conformist, you’re very convincing :)

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

Cymek said:

I’d assume having sex with someone is a personal preference not some anti whatever stance in most cases and even then well its not the other person business if you don’t want to do it.

Not so long ago, it was accepted that lesbians and gays are homosexual, i.e., sexually same-sex attracted.

Now same-sex attraction is being condemned as a form of racism, bigotry etc.

Why? Essentially because: straight men are being left out!

Why don’t lesbians want to have sex with straight men who aren’t getting any, if those men have gone to the bother of painting their nails and talking in a lady voice!

what the?

You’re not aware that lesbian dating sites, for example, have to put up with a steady stream of male chancers claiming to be women?

Lesbians who are not interested in relationships with “trans women” (nearly all of whom are fully intact males and often not even full-time cross-dressers) are routinely shamed for being “transphobic”.

dv said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

Not so long ago, it was accepted that lesbians and gays are homosexual, i.e., sexually same-sex attracted.

Now same-sex attraction is being condemned as a form of racism, bigotry etc.

Why? Essentially because: straight men are being left out!

Why don’t lesbians want to have sex with straight men who aren’t getting any, if those men have gone to the bother of painting their nails and talking in a lady voice!

what the?

He saw it on Newsmax

Maybe I’m reading this wrong… is there suggestion here that the reason men become trans woman, is because they can’t get laid? and further that a trans woman is just a bloke wearing fingernail polish?

buffy said:

Found it.

https://segm.org/trans_youth_suicide_study

In short…the data is sparse, dodgy in many instances (suicidality as against completed suicide, asking people by phone or internet survey, not looking at depression/ADHD/autism in the same people), and needs to be done properly.

Don’t be ridiculous, dv has complete faith in the transgender version of reality, on account of it’s promoted by woke dudes.

diddly-squat said:

dv said:

diddly-squat said:

what the?

He saw it on Newsmax

Maybe I’m reading this wrong… is there suggestion here that the reason men become trans woman, is because they can’t get laid? and further that a trans woman is just a bloke wearing fingernail polish?

Not all of them, no. But a high proportion of men identifying as “transgender” these days are what used to be called transvestites, straight men who are sexually aroused by cross-dressing and presenting as female. These men are not usually “dysphoric”.

The men who used to be identified as transsexual are dysphoric and usually undergo some kind of surgical transition. They’ve always been outnumbered by transvestites, but it’s only in recent years that the latter have been publicly identifying as “transgender”.

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

Not so long ago, it was accepted that lesbians and gays are homosexual, i.e., sexually same-sex attracted.

Now same-sex attraction is being condemned as a form of racism, bigotry etc.

Why? Essentially because: straight men are being left out!

Why don’t lesbians want to have sex with straight men who aren’t getting any, if those men have gone to the bother of painting their nails and talking in a lady voice!

what the?

You’re not aware that lesbian dating sites, for example, have to put up with a steady stream of male chancers claiming to be women?

Lesbians who are not interested in relationships with “trans women” (nearly all of whom are fully intact males and often not even full-time cross-dressers) are routinely shamed for being “transphobic”.

so are these “male chancers” actual trans woman that identify as lesbian, or are they, as you suggest, just blokes with finger nail polish on that are also speaking inca high high voice with the explicit aim that a lesbian woman will want to have sex with them despite the fact they are not actually lesbian?

I mean I’m no expert, but that seems like a really low probability play…

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

what the?

You’re not aware that lesbian dating sites, for example, have to put up with a steady stream of male chancers claiming to be women?

Lesbians who are not interested in relationships with “trans women” (nearly all of whom are fully intact males and often not even full-time cross-dressers) are routinely shamed for being “transphobic”.

so are these “male chancers” actual trans woman that identify as lesbian, or are they, as you suggest, just blokes with finger nail polish on that are also speaking inca high high voice with the explicit aim that a lesbian woman will want to have sex with them despite the fact they are not actually lesbian?

I mean I’m no expert, but that seems like a really low probability play…

The “male chancers” are mostly autogynephiles (although some doubtless just “put on” even that fetish, for the sake of trying to score with a lesbian).

Most autogynephiles are heterosexual males who are happy with their male bodies but have a strong erotic fixation on imagining themselves as female.

You seem to think there is some fundamental difference between “actual trans women” and males. There isn’t. You can’t be a “trans woman” unless you’re a man, is part of the definition :)

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

dv said:

He saw it on Newsmax

Maybe I’m reading this wrong… is there suggestion here that the reason men become trans woman, is because they can’t get laid? and further that a trans woman is just a bloke wearing fingernail polish?

Not all of them, no. But a high proportion of men identifying as “transgender” these days are what used to be called transvestites, straight men who are sexually aroused by cross-dressing and presenting as female. These men are not usually “dysphoric”.

The men who used to be identified as transsexual are dysphoric and usually undergo some kind of surgical transition. They’ve always been outnumbered by transvestites, but it’s only in recent years that the latter have been publicly identifying as “transgender”.

Also, I was also of the understanding that “transgender” covers a very wide distribution of identities .. one that covers individuals that like to cross dress through to individuals that have undergone full gender re-assignment. I would imagine that these induvials also cover a very wide spectrum of sexual preferences…

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Maybe I’m reading this wrong… is there suggestion here that the reason men become trans woman, is because they can’t get laid? and further that a trans woman is just a bloke wearing fingernail polish?

Not all of them, no. But a high proportion of men identifying as “transgender” these days are what used to be called transvestites, straight men who are sexually aroused by cross-dressing and presenting as female. These men are not usually “dysphoric”.

The men who used to be identified as transsexual are dysphoric and usually undergo some kind of surgical transition. They’ve always been outnumbered by transvestites, but it’s only in recent years that the latter have been publicly identifying as “transgender”.

Also, I was also of the understanding that “transgender” covers a very wide distribution of identities .. one that covers individuals that like to cross dress through to individuals that have undergone full gender re-assignment. I would imagine that these induvials also cover a very wide spectrum of sexual preferences…

“Transgender” is now a socially acceptable and indeed fiercely defended category, as we’ve seen in this very forum.

So it’s little wonder that men with a cross-dressing fetish (who used to be regarded as a vaguely comical class of paraphiliac) are now anxious to be regarded as “trans” which affords them social acceptance, quite a lot of power amongst the woke, and endless opportunities for publicly indulging their fetish.

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

You’re not aware that lesbian dating sites, for example, have to put up with a steady stream of male chancers claiming to be women?

Lesbians who are not interested in relationships with “trans women” (nearly all of whom are fully intact males and often not even full-time cross-dressers) are routinely shamed for being “transphobic”.

so are these “male chancers” actual trans woman that identify as lesbian, or are they, as you suggest, just blokes with finger nail polish on that are also speaking inca high high voice with the explicit aim that a lesbian woman will want to have sex with them despite the fact they are not actually lesbian?

I mean I’m no expert, but that seems like a really low probability play…

The “male chancers” are mostly autogynephiles (although some doubtless just “put on” even that fetish, for the sake of trying to score with a lesbian).

Most autogynephiles are heterosexual males who are happy with their male bodies but have a strong erotic fixation on imagining themselves as female.

You seem to think there is some fundamental difference between “actual trans women” and males. There isn’t. You can’t be a “trans woman” unless you’re a man, is part of the definition :)

I’d argue that there is a difference between a straight man and a trans woman that identifies as lesbian. Now it may well be the case that a woman that identifies as lesbian, doesn’t want to involve themselves with a trans woman and that would be their prerogative.

But for me, if an individual identifies as lesbian I see no particular issue with them frequenting a lesbian dating site (irrespective of their gender identity)

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

so are these “male chancers” actual trans woman that identify as lesbian, or are they, as you suggest, just blokes with finger nail polish on that are also speaking inca high high voice with the explicit aim that a lesbian woman will want to have sex with them despite the fact they are not actually lesbian?

I mean I’m no expert, but that seems like a really low probability play…

The “male chancers” are mostly autogynephiles (although some doubtless just “put on” even that fetish, for the sake of trying to score with a lesbian).

Most autogynephiles are heterosexual males who are happy with their male bodies but have a strong erotic fixation on imagining themselves as female.

You seem to think there is some fundamental difference between “actual trans women” and males. There isn’t. You can’t be a “trans woman” unless you’re a man, is part of the definition :)

I’d argue that there is a difference between a straight man and a trans woman that identifies as lesbian. Now it may well be the case that a woman that identifies as lesbian, doesn’t want to involve themselves with a trans woman and that would be their prerogative.

But for me, if an individual identifies as lesbian I see no particular issue with them frequenting a lesbian dating site (irrespective of their gender identity)

Sure, men harassing women with unwelcome attention in women-only dating sites is “no particular issue” for you, but it is for many of the women using those sites.

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

The “male chancers” are mostly autogynephiles (although some doubtless just “put on” even that fetish, for the sake of trying to score with a lesbian).

Most autogynephiles are heterosexual males who are happy with their male bodies but have a strong erotic fixation on imagining themselves as female.

You seem to think there is some fundamental difference between “actual trans women” and males. There isn’t. You can’t be a “trans woman” unless you’re a man, is part of the definition :)

I’d argue that there is a difference between a straight man and a trans woman that identifies as lesbian. Now it may well be the case that a woman that identifies as lesbian, doesn’t want to involve themselves with a trans woman and that would be their prerogative.

But for me, if an individual identifies as lesbian I see no particular issue with them frequenting a lesbian dating site (irrespective of their gender identity)

Sure, men harassing women with unwelcome attention in women-only dating sites is “no particular issue” for you, but it is for many of the women using those sites.

aren’t they lesbian sites? as opposed to “woman only” sites?

updates

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

I’d argue that there is a difference between a straight man and a trans woman that identifies as lesbian. Now it may well be the case that a woman that identifies as lesbian, doesn’t want to involve themselves with a trans woman and that would be their prerogative.

But for me, if an individual identifies as lesbian I see no particular issue with them frequenting a lesbian dating site (irrespective of their gender identity)

Sure, men harassing women with unwelcome attention in women-only dating sites is “no particular issue” for you, but it is for many of the women using those sites.

aren’t they lesbian sites? as opposed to “woman only” sites?

Lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to women, so yes, lesbian dating sites are “women only”.

dv said:

updates

I’d tend to put you where you’ve put Jenner, and move him further to the women’s rights side, since he at least is opposed to trans women taking part in women’s sports.

dv said:

updates

always good to know where you stand.. just a Time Warp between us it seems, dv

For the sake of balance, it’s important to point out that there are transgender people who also opposed to the fashionably extreme trans ideology being promoted these days.

There are trans women for example, who don’t claim to be “real women” and who are fully aware that “being a trans woman” is a uniquely male experience.

Such transgender realists are just as often “cancelled” (pushed off social media and drowned out by the TRAs) as other gender-critical people.

diddly-squat said:

dv said:

updates

always good to know where you stand.. just a Time Warp between us it seems, dv

Like I think it is totally reasonable to have trans-exclusionary lesbian-only spaces, online and off

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

Sure, men harassing women with unwelcome attention in women-only dating sites is “no particular issue” for you, but it is for many of the women using those sites.

aren’t they lesbian sites? as opposed to “woman only” sites?

Lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to women, so yes, lesbian dating sites are “women only”.

Feels to me you are being very binary, in what is a largely analogue world, Mr Car

what of trans men that identify as homosexual? what web sites are they to use?

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

aren’t they lesbian sites? as opposed to “woman only” sites?

Lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to women, so yes, lesbian dating sites are “women only”.

Feels to me you are being very binary, in what is a largely analogue world, Mr Car

what of trans men that identify as homosexual? what web sites are they to use?

It’s very much a binary world, as far as sexual biology is concerned. There are two sexes, and that matters:

Sex matters in life and in law. It shouldn’t take courage to say so

I’d imagine trans men who identify as gay can be slightly annoying if intruding into the gay scene (I haven’t been active on the gay scene for a long time, being a fat old fart who’s jealous of his own company :)).

But there would be very few “gay trans men” compared with men claiming to be lesbians, and the power status is also very different. Few men are going to feel threatened by unwanted attention from females, whereas unwanted attention from males is a common and serious problem for women, whether straight or lesbian.

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

aren’t they lesbian sites? as opposed to “woman only” sites?

Lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to women, so yes, lesbian dating sites are “women only”.

Feels to me you are being very binary, in what is a largely analogue world, Mr Car

what of trans men that identify as homosexual? what web sites are they to use?

My niece => nephew identifies as “gay trans man”. Regular testosterone is administered. I’m not entirely clear, but I think this means M is attracted to men. Which is what M’s biological XX genes would demand for propagation of the species. I’m afraid I’m a bit Queen Victoria about this. I don’t really understand what it means in terms of physical matters. (I don’t really care all that much, it’s M’s business but I do wonder a bit)

Could find in the near future the surgery becomes much more advanced and its impossible to tell the difference without detailed internal scans

Cymek said:

Could find in the near future the surgery becomes much more advanced and its impossible to tell the difference without detailed internal scans

I think that is quite unlikely for the majority of cases. We are a long way from making bits that work.

buffy said:

Cymek said:

Could find in the near future the surgery becomes much more advanced and its impossible to tell the difference without detailed internal scans

I think that is quite unlikely for the majority of cases. We are a long way from making bits that work.

Not working reproductive organs but reasonably functional sex organs and more advanced facial changes including hair growth or lack of.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

updates

I’d tend to put you where you’ve put Jenner, and move him further to the women’s rights side, since he at least is opposed to trans women taking part in women’s sports.

Well then I guess you’ve really got the wrong end of the stick. :-) He’s very much a Republican in terms of women’s rights.

Is it fair to label it a trans issue or more appropriately a personality issue were the “troublemakers” just have to be transgender.
The examples given seem like the persons in question have boundaries issues and the like.
It’s quite morally complex and not something society would have much experience with even those who have no problem with any of it in the first place.
Its like I’ve mentioned before minority peoples acting badly and blaming in on bigots/racists when its them acting badly as a person not whatever group they are from

Like I’m not as trans friendly as experienced feminists like Gloria Steinem but I figure I’m more in that direction than middle of the road players such as Biden.

On sports I suppose it would depend on the sport. There are some sports where there’d be no reasonable competition, such as basketball, and others such as lawnbowls where there’d be no problem at all to include trans athletes. Between those extremes there’d be some others, particularly those with weight brackets, where you’d have to drill into the data, but ultimately it is a matter for sports administrators who I assume know more about sports than me.

Cymek said:

Is it fair to label it a trans issue or more appropriately a personality issue were the “troublemakers” just have to be transgender.
The examples given seem like the persons in question have boundaries issues and the like.
It’s quite morally complex and not something society would have much experience with even those who have no problem with any of it in the first place.
Its like I’ve mentioned before minority peoples acting badly and blaming in on bigots/racists when its them acting badly as a person not whatever group they are from

Well quite. Just because Lily Cade is a lesbian sexual assualt perp we can’t conclude that broadly there is a problem with lesbians and sexual assault.
Indeed the only group with a really bad record there is cis-dudes, alas.

The three-page paper made statements such as: “Feminists fought and continue to fight very hard for freedom from male violence and for specific rights for women – reproductive and maternity rights, privacy rights, equality with the male sex in public life (education, workplace, politics, sports, etc), specific healthcare issues and so on.

“If ‘woman’ is a category predicated entirely on a person’s subjective self-identification rather than on an objective, identifiable fact such as biology, what are the policy and practical implications for these hard-won sex-segregated spaces or sex-specific affirmative actions?”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/18/victorian-greens-leader-ousts-partys-state-convener-over-past-comments-about-trans-people

So in the Greens making the above statement will basically make you persona non grata.

sibeen said:

The three-page paper made statements such as: “Feminists fought and continue to fight very hard for freedom from male violence and for specific rights for women – reproductive and maternity rights, privacy rights, equality with the male sex in public life (education, workplace, politics, sports, etc), specific healthcare issues and so on.

“If ‘woman’ is a category predicated entirely on a person’s subjective self-identification rather than on an objective, identifiable fact such as biology, what are the policy and practical implications for these hard-won sex-segregated spaces or sex-specific affirmative actions?”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/18/victorian-greens-leader-ousts-partys-state-convener-over-past-comments-about-trans-people

So in the Greens making the above statement will basically make you persona non grata.

Both statements seem quite reasonable to me.

I wonder if those two sentences constitute the whole reason for his ousting, or if he might have said other things that were not quoted.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The three-page paper made statements such as: “Feminists fought and continue to fight very hard for freedom from male violence and for specific rights for women – reproductive and maternity rights, privacy rights, equality with the male sex in public life (education, workplace, politics, sports, etc), specific healthcare issues and so on.

“If ‘woman’ is a category predicated entirely on a person’s subjective self-identification rather than on an objective, identifiable fact such as biology, what are the policy and practical implications for these hard-won sex-segregated spaces or sex-specific affirmative actions?”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/18/victorian-greens-leader-ousts-partys-state-convener-over-past-comments-about-trans-people

So in the Greens making the above statement will basically make you persona non grata.

Both statements seem quite reasonable to me.

I wonder if those two sentences constitute the whole reason for his ousting, or if he might have said other things that were not quoted.

Her.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The three-page paper made statements such as: “Feminists fought and continue to fight very hard for freedom from male violence and for specific rights for women – reproductive and maternity rights, privacy rights, equality with the male sex in public life (education, workplace, politics, sports, etc), specific healthcare issues and so on.

“If ‘woman’ is a category predicated entirely on a person’s subjective self-identification rather than on an objective, identifiable fact such as biology, what are the policy and practical implications for these hard-won sex-segregated spaces or sex-specific affirmative actions?”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/18/victorian-greens-leader-ousts-partys-state-convener-over-past-comments-about-trans-people

So in the Greens making the above statement will basically make you persona non grata.

Both statements seem quite reasonable to me.

I wonder if those two sentences constitute the whole reason for his ousting, or if he might have said other things that were not quoted.

Her.

fkn pronouns again

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The three-page paper made statements such as: “Feminists fought and continue to fight very hard for freedom from male violence and for specific rights for women – reproductive and maternity rights, privacy rights, equality with the male sex in public life (education, workplace, politics, sports, etc), specific healthcare issues and so on.

“If ‘woman’ is a category predicated entirely on a person’s subjective self-identification rather than on an objective, identifiable fact such as biology, what are the policy and practical implications for these hard-won sex-segregated spaces or sex-specific affirmative actions?”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/18/victorian-greens-leader-ousts-partys-state-convener-over-past-comments-about-trans-people

So in the Greens making the above statement will basically make you persona non grata.

Both statements seem quite reasonable to me.

I wonder if those two sentences constitute the whole reason for his ousting, or if he might have said other things that were not quoted.

Like a lot of people unaware of how extreme the standard TRA position really is, and how entrenched it has become on the mainstream Left, you don’t realise that you, too, would be cancelled for regarding those reasonable statements as reasonable.

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The three-page paper made statements such as: “Feminists fought and continue to fight very hard for freedom from male violence and for specific rights for women – reproductive and maternity rights, privacy rights, equality with the male sex in public life (education, workplace, politics, sports, etc), specific healthcare issues and so on.

“If ‘woman’ is a category predicated entirely on a person’s subjective self-identification rather than on an objective, identifiable fact such as biology, what are the policy and practical implications for these hard-won sex-segregated spaces or sex-specific affirmative actions?”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/18/victorian-greens-leader-ousts-partys-state-convener-over-past-comments-about-trans-people

So in the Greens making the above statement will basically make you persona non grata.

Both statements seem quite reasonable to me.

I wonder if those two sentences constitute the whole reason for his ousting, or if he might have said other things that were not quoted.

Like a lot of people unaware of how extreme the standard TRA position really is, and how entrenched it has become on the mainstream Left, you don’t realise that you, too, would be cancelled for regarding those reasonable statements as reasonable.

Well maybe.

But I don’t think I should be cancelled for questioning whether a newspaper report about a contentious issue told the whole story.

Many (probably most) Western left-wing parties now regard “gender self-ID” (i.e., official identification as “male” or “female” being purely a matter of individual choice) as a platform position, regardless of the consequences for women’s sex-based rights and for the safeguarding protocols for women and children.

Bubblecar said:

Many (probably most) Western left-wing parties now regard “gender self-ID” (i.e., official identification as “male” or “female” being purely a matter of individual choice) as a platform position, regardless of the consequences for women’s sex-based rights and for the safeguarding protocols for women and children.

Well, I for one am not part of the “the Left” and I do not subscribe to this ideology.

So there. Call me a transphobe if you must. I’ve been called worse.

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Many (probably most) Western left-wing parties now regard “gender self-ID” (i.e., official identification as “male” or “female” being purely a matter of individual choice) as a platform position, regardless of the consequences for women’s sex-based rights and for the safeguarding protocols for women and children.

Well, I for one am not part of the “the Left” and I do not subscribe to this ideology.

So there. Call me a transphobe if you must. I’ve been called worse.

+1

Being a liberal humanist with democratic socialist tendencies, I’ve traditionally regarded myself as something of a lefty, but it’s becoming too embarrassing to do so.

bump

While this is a valid topic, ‘teenage trans men’ makes me think of a blended movie franchise: a mix of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Transformers, and X-Men.

Thank you, I’ve put it back into my bookmarks.

And here is some more reading for those interested in the UK situation.

https://segm.org/GIDS-puberty-blockers-minors-the-times-special-report

And now I’ve finished reading that piece I linked…I hope the clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have good malpractice insurance.

buffy said:

And now I’ve finished reading that piece I linked…I hope the clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have good malpractice insurance.

Ta, I’ll read it later.

buffy said:

And now I’ve finished reading that piece I linked…I hope the clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have good malpractice insurance.

A depressing read.

sibeen said:

buffy said:

And now I’ve finished reading that piece I linked…I hope the clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have good malpractice insurance.

A depressing read.

It is. Where are the protocols? We’ve been banging on about Evidence Based Medicine for many, many years now.

buffy said:

sibeen said:

buffy said:

And now I’ve finished reading that piece I linked…I hope the clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic have good malpractice insurance.

A depressing read.

It is. Where are the protocols? We’ve been banging on about Evidence Based Medicine for many, many years now.

Some spoke out, and copped the punishment for doing so. Then gradually more spoke out….

In these very pages, not so long ago, dv was calling the whistleblowers cranks and comfortably accepting the “consensus” of the ideologically driven campaigners installed in the health system.

UK’s Tavistock clinic has now been shut down:

Courage of the parents, patients and whistleblowers who refused to be silenced is revealed as controversial Tavistock children’s transgender clinic is to SHUT after damning report warned it was ‘not safe’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11059641/Courage-parents-patients-whistleblowers-revealed-Tavistock-childrens-clinic-SHUT.html

Bubblecar said:

UK’s Tavistock clinic has now been shut down:

Courage of the parents, patients and whistleblowers who refused to be silenced is revealed as controversial Tavistock children’s transgender clinic is to SHUT after damning report warned it was ‘not safe’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11059641/Courage-parents-patients-whistleblowers-revealed-Tavistock-childrens-clinic-SHUT.html

Goodness me.

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

UK’s Tavistock clinic has now been shut down:

Courage of the parents, patients and whistleblowers who refused to be silenced is revealed as controversial Tavistock children’s transgender clinic is to SHUT after damning report warned it was ‘not safe’

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11059641/Courage-parents-patients-whistleblowers-revealed-Tavistock-childrens-clinic-SHUT.html

Goodness me.

I hadn’t looked as SEGM for a couple of weeks. I’ll read this later.

https://segm.org/UK_shuts-down-worlds-biggest-gender-clinic-for-kids

https://segm.org/Tavistock-closure-the-times

Tavistock gender clinic ‘to be sued by 1,000 families’

The Tavistock gender clinic is facing mass legal action from youngsters who claim they were rushed into taking life-altering puberty blockers.

Lawyers expect about 1,000 families to join a medical negligence lawsuit alleging vulnerable children have been misdiagnosed and placed on a damaging medical pathway.

They are accusing the gender identity development service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust of multiple failures in its duty of care.

This includes allegations it recklessly prescribed puberty blockers with harmful side effects and adopted an “unquestioning, affirmative approach” to children identifying as transgender.

Last month NHS England announced it was shutting the Tavistock clinic over safety concerns following a damning external review. Care will be handed to regional children’s hospitals.

The law firm Pogust Goodhead has since announced it is pursuing a group litigation order against the trust, which has treated 19,000 children with gender dysphoria (the feeling that one’s emotional and psychological identity differs from one’s birth sex) since 1989.

Former patients given puberty blockers are joining the “class action” lawsuit and papers are due to be lodged at the High Court within six months.

Tom Goodhead, chief executive of Pogust Goodhead, told The Times: “Children and young adolescents were rushed into treatment without the appropriate therapy and involvement of the right clinicians, meaning that they were misdiagnosed and started on a treatment pathway that was not right for them.

“These children have suffered life-changing and, in some cases, irreversible effects of the treatment they received . . . We anticipate that at least 1,000 clients will join this action.”

The allegations of medical negligence are based on the findings of an interim report by Dr Hilary Cass, a former president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, who is leading a review of the service.

Cass found the clinic overlooked other mental health issues in children distressed about their gender, and failed to collect data on the use or side effects of puberty blockers, which she said may “temporarily or permanently” disrupt the development of children’s brains.

A GIDS spokesperson said: “GIDS has not heard from Pogust Goodhead about this matter, but it would be inappropriate to comment on any current or potential legal proceeding.

“The service is committed to patient safety. It works with every young person on a case-by-case basis, with no expectation of what might be the right pathway for them, and only the minority of young people who are seen in our service access any physical treatments while with us.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-to-be-sued-by-1-000-families-lbsw6k8zd

Bubblecar said:

Tavistock gender clinic ‘to be sued by 1,000 families’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-to-be-sued-by-1-000-families-lbsw6k8zd

serious question how many in total had they treated

SCIENCE said:

Bubblecar said:

Tavistock gender clinic ‘to be sued by 1,000 families’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-to-be-sued-by-1-000-families-lbsw6k8zd

serious question how many in total had they treated

SCIENCE said:

Bubblecar said:

Tavistock gender clinic ‘to be sued by 1,000 families’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-to-be-sued-by-1-000-families-lbsw6k8zd

serious question how many in total had they treated

19,000. Reflects a huge increase in the number of young people engulfed by this fad.

Shall I put this here? Spoze.

>>>

Don’t miss out on the headlines from Parenting. Followed categories will be added to My News.

A four-year-old child has captured hearts – and sparked a heated online debate – after announcing he was a boy via a rainbow-fuelled gender reveal at the Vancouver Pride Parade in Canada.

Charlie Danger Lloyd was assigned female at birth – but from a young age expressed he was a boy, his mum said, as reported by the New York Post.

Now-viral footage and photos captured the moment young Charlie – with his grandmother by his side – released a confetti cannon that filled the area with blue smoke.

“Once they closed the road, Charlie strutted out with Grammy and they faced the sidelines and after a short struggle, the cannon exploded with blue smoke and biodegradable confetti,” his mum, 27-year-old Alaina Bourrel, told South West News Service after her little boy ran into her arms.

“Charlie jumped with joy as the crowd cheered him on. He couldn’t believe the love and support he was shown from the bystanders.”

Despite Charlie’s happiness, his mum said she has come under attack by vicious trolls online, calling her a “paedophile, groomer and rapist” for her son’s transition.

However, Ms Bourrel said that her child started expressing different gender needs at the age of two, telling his family he was “growing to look just like daddy” and “I’m a boy” all day, every day.

The proud mum said the parade moment was dreamt up after they told Charlie the family held a previous gender reveal before he was born – where the smoke didn’t work properly.

“When we told him the story, he asked for a re-do with his granny at the Vancouver Pride Parade – so we bought him a smoke cannon and tucked it away for this day,” she said.

“He wasn’t your typical little girl. He would play with other boys and the parents would say he was more of a boy than their own children,” Ms Bourrel recalled, saying the family didn’t think anything of it until the end of 2021, when he didn’t want to shop in the girl’s section and wanted his hair cut short.

“He refused to shop in the girl’s section, but was too nervous to shop in the boy’s. After lots of expressing his feelings and emotions with me, he decided that he wanted a new wardrobe so we set out to find our new style.”

About a month after buying his new wardrobe, Charlie was ready to get his hair cut.

“We made an appointment with Lia at Big Bros Barbershop, a trans-owned and operated salon in East Vancouver,” his mum said.

“After leaving the salon that afternoon, Charlie was a completely new child.

After changes to his wardrobe and his appearance, his confidence went through the roof.

“We are four months since he began his social transition now,” Ms Bourrel said.

“He is still a normal kid that does completely normal little kid things like play with Lego, uses his creativity and learns to ride his bike.”

Despite online haters who criticise her parenting choices, she said Charlie’s family and friends have been nothing but supportive of the preschooler.

“His choices were not questioned and he was congratulated and everyone began using new pronouns,” she said, adding it is no different to raising any other child and she appreciates the support from those in their inner circle.

“We are so lucky to have the circle that we do.”

https://www.themercury.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/fouryearold-us-kid-announces-transition-to-male-gender-with-reveal/news-story/182561b9c64635207220377269f41959

Kate Kelly -Independent Candidate for Hobart City Council 2022 Elections
Yesterday at 09:28 ·
update After a solid hour of messaging the Mercury very seriously insisting they act on this, the comments have now been disabled.
I have implored them to go one step further, as is their duty of care as a publisher online, and remove all the hate speech from the comments thread.
We can all act to stand up to bigotry and injustice, we just have to choose not to walk past it. *
The Mercury has put this story online and is now allowing the vilest bigoted hate speech to populate the comments.
This is totally a dereliction of duty and violation of their responsibility as publisher to moderate hate speech in their comments thread. I have reported it.
Please do the same or at least jump in comments and show the Trans community you support them through some positive comments and kindness.
I lament for the heartless ignorance of so many against people who simply want the right to bloody exist and be treated with dignity and respect.
This is sickening.

Kate Kelly
Hey Mercury, if you’re going to deliberately drop a story that you know will attract bigots and discrimination have the decency and exercise your publisher responsibility to moderate the comments. This is a total dereliction of your ever dwindling journalistic standards and your duty of care to this child and his family. Shame on you. Get it together. Or was a nasty divisive click festival your only intention here? I wish vulnerable people realised that the only reason the right wing rags come knocking is when they want to throw them under the hate train. MODERATE THE COMMENTS. YOU ARE ALLOWING HATE SPEECH ON THIS THREAD

‘Absolutely devastating’: woman sues psychiatrist over gender transition

https://www.theage.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html

Bubblecar said:

‘Absolutely devastating’: woman sues psychiatrist over gender transition

https://www.theage.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html

That case concerns me (a little) less than the ones who have been set on the journey before puberty, using puberty blocking drugs.

Another article on the US situation.

https://segm.org/Americas-approach-to-transgender-health-care

And the NHS has followed other countries and issued new guidelines.

https://segm.org/England-ends-gender-affirming-care

Bump, cos others are too lazy to look even though DV, a great forum friend, has toiled to supply us with an index that is searchable, via Ctrl F on your browser.

JudgeMental said:

Bump, cos others are too lazy to look even though DV, a great forum friend, has toiled to supply us with an index that is searchable, via Ctrl F on your browser.

I blame Sibeen.

Witty Rejoinder said:

JudgeMental said:

Bump, cos others are too lazy to look even though DV, a great forum friend, has toiled to supply us with an index that is searchable, via Ctrl F on your browser.

I blame Sibeen.

Because he started the discussion in Chat? Or just because…?

buffy said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

JudgeMental said:

Bump, cos others are too lazy to look even though DV, a great forum friend, has toiled to supply us with an index that is searchable, via Ctrl F on your browser.

I blame Sibeen.

Because he started the discussion in Chat? Or just because…?

You’re burning the wrong witch: LGBTQ writer apologizes to JK Rowling after spending three months researching the Harry Potter author but finding NO evidence she is transphobic

An LGBTQ activist has commended JK Rowling for her ‘bravery’ and told her followers that people are ‘burning the wrong witch’ after she was unable to find any evidence that the Harry Potter author is transphobic.

EJ Rosetta, a writer and columnist for HuffPost, who has been vocal herself over trans issues, said in a series of Tweets that JK Rowling ‘is not an ‘intolerable transphobe’‘, but stood up for women’s rights when she could have sat back.

JK Rowling said she has long faced death and rape threats for her views on transgender issues, where she has called out the erosion of biological sex and the harm it can cause to women. Critical LGBTQ activists have dubbed the author a TERF, a trans-exclusionary radical feminist, and have repeatedly denounced her for her opinions.

In the thread, EJ Rosetta wrote: ‘Right, I’m done. 3 months ago, I was tasked with writing an article detailing ’20 Transphobic JK Rowling Quotes We’re Done With’. After 12 weeks of reading her books, tweets, full essay & finding the context of these ‘quotes’, I’ve not found a single truly transphobic message.’

….‘3 months of dedicated research,’ wrote EJ Rosetta, ‘& I cannot find a single truly transphobic JK Rowling quote that stands up against the scrutiny of journalistic integrity. The abuse JK has endured is beyond forgiveness. Every death threat, r*pe threat & torrent of abuse, she has born w/ grace.’

Rosetta concluded: ‘You’re burning the wrong witch. I stand with @jk_rowling.’

Regulator escalates investigation into trans charity Mermaids

The Charity Commission has escalated its investigations into Mermaids, the regulatory body announced on Friday, responding to “newly identified issues” about the governance and management of the transgender children’s charity.

A statutory inquiry has been opened after an earlier lower-level regulatory compliance case launched in September in response to safeguarding allegations.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/02/regulator-escalates-investigation-into-trans-charity-mermaids

Hedwig and the angry inch

Just reading this.

https://segm.org/Placebo-effects-of-gender-affirmative-care

buffy said:

Just reading this.

https://segm.org/Placebo-effects-of-gender-affirmative-care

>Gender‐Affirming Treatment of Gender Dysphoria in Youth: Are the Results Compromised by the Placebo Effect?

Very likely, but unfortunately puberty blockers, hormone regimens and amputations are not harmless sugar pills.

Bubblecar said:

buffy said:

Just reading this.

https://segm.org/Placebo-effects-of-gender-affirmative-care

>Gender‐Affirming Treatment of Gender Dysphoria in Youth: Are the Results Compromised by the Placebo Effect?

Very likely, but unfortunately puberty blockers, hormone regimens and amputations are not harmless sugar pills.

Those things are not used as placebos. What the paper is saying that there will be a placebo effect simply because something is being done, a psychological effect. Over and above whatever the drugs etc do. And you can’t tell how much is placebo.

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

buffy said:

Just reading this.

https://segm.org/Placebo-effects-of-gender-affirmative-care

>Gender‐Affirming Treatment of Gender Dysphoria in Youth: Are the Results Compromised by the Placebo Effect?

Very likely, but unfortunately puberty blockers, hormone regimens and amputations are not harmless sugar pills.

Those things are not used as placebos. What the paper is saying that there will be a placebo effect simply because something is being done, a psychological effect. Over and above whatever the drugs etc do. And you can’t tell how much is placebo.

Yes I know. I was merely echoing her concern that in this case the placebo effect is accompanied by actual drastic medical intervention.

Bubblecar…it’s a long read from SEGM.

https://segm.org/false-assumptions-gender-affirmation-minors

buffy said:

Bubblecar…it’s a long read from SEGM.

https://segm.org/false-assumptions-gender-affirmation-minors

Ta. It would an informative read for dv.

Bubblecar said:

buffy said:

Bubblecar…it’s a long read from SEGM.

https://segm.org/false-assumptions-gender-affirmation-minors

Ta. It would an informative read for dv.

SEGM have also done a year summary:

https://segm.org/gender-medicine-developments-2022-summary

Some more information.

https://segm.org/Dutch-studies-critically-flawed

Buffy might find this interesting. (ROGD stands for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, i.e. supposed dysphoria occurring with no prior personal history of same).

How to deprogram a ROGD teen: Part 1 – A mother tells her story

Bubblecar said:

Buffy might find this interesting. (ROGD stands for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, i.e. supposed dysphoria occurring with no prior personal history of same).

How to deprogram a ROGD teen: Part 1 – A mother tells her story

Thank you, I’ll get back to read that. Did you see the latest SEGM link I put up?

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

Buffy might find this interesting. (ROGD stands for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, i.e. supposed dysphoria occurring with no prior personal history of same).

How to deprogram a ROGD teen: Part 1 – A mother tells her story

Thank you, I’ll get back to read that. Did you see the latest SEGM link I put up?

Yes, ta.

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

Buffy might find this interesting. (ROGD stands for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, i.e. supposed dysphoria occurring with no prior personal history of same).

How to deprogram a ROGD teen: Part 1 – A mother tells her story

Thank you, I’ll get back to read that. Did you see the latest SEGM link I put up?

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

buffy said:

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

Buffy might find this interesting. (ROGD stands for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, i.e. supposed dysphoria occurring with no prior personal history of same).

How to deprogram a ROGD teen: Part 1 – A mother tells her story

Thank you, I’ll get back to read that. Did you see the latest SEGM link I put up?

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

Arts said:

buffy said:

buffy said:

Thank you, I’ll get back to read that. Did you see the latest SEGM link I put up?

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

They never did find the factory reset button did they

Cymek said:

Arts said:

buffy said:

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

They never did find the factory reset button did they

Nup, instead they found a gender selector switch with at least 6 settings.

Arts said:

buffy said:

buffy said:

Thank you, I’ll get back to read that. Did you see the latest SEGM link I put up?

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

buffy said:

Arts said:

buffy said:

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

Arts said:

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

The thing that concerns me the most is the use of androgens in pre-pubertal females. It’s been done in the past. We learned with the athletes that it is not good for your health.

ah so hormones to fix gays bad, hormones to make identities good

Bubblecar said:

Buffy might find this interesting. (ROGD stands for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, i.e. supposed dysphoria occurring with no prior personal history of same).

How to deprogram a ROGD teen: Part 1 – A mother tells her story

read that

must be an unpleasant state, mental state, for many that experience it, to be worryingly washed out of a convincing force of desire for this or that, and further how should I say, a force that generates motivating imagery, confusion or conflict wouldn’t help that way

the answer, for those inclined toward mind-over-matter-social-construction might tend the (a greater) force of notions and ideas to compensate, to be endlessly busy with explanations, trying, inviting a tyranny of comparison, everything is to be rendered subject to the work of minds, which of course gravitates toward shared preferred explanations, but potentially could have a deleterious effect, be unhelpful, the force of notions held displace other things, including softer realities

a frog that pumps itself up in response to danger is no more frog

i’m thinking very close familiarity between humans is possibly more an olfactory experience, though you might not hear it said in public

ancient maybe, and perhaps not very useful to fanatic social constructionists doing their good work

Cymek said:

Arts said:

buffy said:

Bubblecar..I forgot I was going back to read this…it’s an interesting idea, looking at it as a cult.

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

They never did find the factory reset button did they

no man can find that button

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

Arts said:

I remember how successful it was when they tried to deprogram homosexuals back in the 50’s and 60’s…

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “gender”. There is sex, which is physical and real. The “gender” of the gender cult is imaginary, but is nonetheless used a premise to cause the victims needless physical harm.

Secondly, these unfortunate youngsters aren’t “self-determining” anything. They’re being sucked into a teenage fad that has many of the characteristics of a cult.

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “gender”. There is sex, which is physical and real. The “gender” of the gender cult is imaginary, but is nonetheless used a premise to cause the victims needless physical harm.

Secondly, these unfortunate youngsters aren’t “self-determining” anything. They’re being sucked into a teenage fad that has many of the characteristics of a cult.

>used a premise = used as a premise

buffy said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

The thing that concerns me the most is the use of androgens in pre-pubertal females. It’s been done in the past. We learned with the athletes that it is not good for your health.

I’d be interested to see the trade off between physical and mental well being though

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “gender”. There is sex, which is physical and real. The “gender” of the gender cult is imaginary, but is nonetheless used a premise to cause the victims needless physical harm.

Secondly, these unfortunate youngsters aren’t “self-determining” anything. They’re being sucked into a teenage fad that has many of the characteristics of a cult.

you should write for The Australian

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

buffy said:

I’m not sure this is quite the same thing really.

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “gender”. There is sex, which is physical and real. The “gender” of the gender cult is imaginary, but is nonetheless used a premise to cause the victims needless physical harm.

Secondly, these unfortunate youngsters aren’t “self-determining” anything. They’re being sucked into a teenage fad that has many of the characteristics of a cult.

Firstly the idea of a third gender is thousands of years old across most cultures which recognise that human psychology is fluid.

Secondly the same was said of homosexuality in decades past.

ah well at least people can have the illusion of choice

diddly-squat said:

buffy said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

The thing that concerns me the most is the use of androgens in pre-pubertal females. It’s been done in the past. We learned with the athletes that it is not good for your health.

I’d be interested to see the trade off between physical and mental well being though

There are very many young people battling serious mental health problems as a result of their “therapy” by transgender enthusiasts.

Lawyers are handling thousands of suits against the Tavistock clinic and others, on behalf of former patients and their families.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Why is self-determining your gender any different from sexuality? Of course there are still valid arguments that trans treatment offerings have been flawed and ideology has been taking precedence over science.

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “gender”. There is sex, which is physical and real. The “gender” of the gender cult is imaginary, but is nonetheless used a premise to cause the victims needless physical harm.

Secondly, these unfortunate youngsters aren’t “self-determining” anything. They’re being sucked into a teenage fad that has many of the characteristics of a cult.

Firstly the idea of a third gender is thousands of years old across most cultures which recognise that human psychology is fluid.

Secondly the same was said of homosexuality in decades past.

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

trigenda

Anyway buffy might want to read the other parts of that article:

Deprogramming your ROGD teen: Part 2

Deprogramming Your ROGD Teen: Part 3

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Firstly, there’s no such thing as “gender”. There is sex, which is physical and real. The “gender” of the gender cult is imaginary, but is nonetheless used a premise to cause the victims needless physical harm.

Secondly, these unfortunate youngsters aren’t “self-determining” anything. They’re being sucked into a teenage fad that has many of the characteristics of a cult.

Firstly the idea of a third gender is thousands of years old across most cultures which recognise that human psychology is fluid.

Secondly the same was said of homosexuality in decades past.

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Firstly the idea of a third gender is thousands of years old across most cultures which recognise that human psychology is fluid.

Secondly the same was said of homosexuality in decades past.

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Firstly the idea of a third gender is thousands of years old across most cultures which recognise that human psychology is fluid.

Secondly the same was said of homosexuality in decades past.

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

I’m assuming like anything some grubby humans get their hands on it, its a means to exploit others to make money or a power grab and to hell with the damage done.

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

Your opinions are valuable.

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

Where do she males fit in ?

and i have never heard of he females.

Dare i search ?

Anyway I’m not really interested in debating this topic. I do wish though that people would read up on this subject from the point of view of the rational gender critics.

In the days when this was a science forum, a critical rational and scientific view would have been favoured as a matter of course.

Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

I’m assuming like anything some grubby humans get their hands on it, its a means to exploit others to make money or a power grab and to hell with the damage done.

I’d be interested to find out if men transiting to women and vis versa are told the whole truth about the operation and you most likely get what you can pay for.

Bubblecar said:

the days when this was a science forum, a critical rational and scientific view

sigh

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

Where do she males fit in ?

and i have never heard of he females.

Dare i search ?

probably there are a whole bunch of diverse people for whom this cake party is relevant but the toxicity is just harming them with no benefit

SCIENCE said:

Bubblecar said:

the days when this was a science forum, a critical rational and scientific view

sigh

Lololol 😆

Bubblecar said:

Anyway buffy might want to read the other parts of that article:

Deprogramming your ROGD teen: Part 2

Deprogramming Your ROGD Teen: Part 3

Thank you, I did read them all.

Back at the beginning of this thread I gave the SEGM link. Here it is again, for those who want to follow the science and read some papers.

https://segm.org/

It can get pretty heavy. I haven’t immediately got the link to the Cass report, but it was the reason the big Tavistock clinic in England is being closed down. Here is an NHS link about it.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-clinical-programme/implementing-advice-from-the-cass-review/

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

What “third gender”? The transgender movement isn’t about a “third gender”. Do some basic research.

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

my News Corp bingo card is getting a good work out here

Got an email from change.org asking me to sign a petition to revoke this woman’s visa to tour Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull

I ended up signing.

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Non-binary folk. Not all transgender people claim to be one or the other. And then there is intersex conditions where people of indeterminate sex literally have to choose what gender they feel themselves to be. Do some basic research.

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

my News Corp bingo card is getting a good work out here

You’re a silly sausage :)

How’s that “Putin won’t invade Ukraine” opinion going?

are not trans men, females?

roughbarked said:

are not trans men, females?

Yes.

Bubblecar said:

roughbarked said:

are not trans men, females?

Yes.

Good. I’m glad I’ve got that sorted.

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

“Non-binary” is another ludicrous fad, in which ordinary boring straight people who are desperate for attention start calling themselves “they” etc.

Fortunately unlike the transgender transitioners, the non-binary stuff is usually just laughable and embarrassing, not necessarily harmful.

As for intersex people, they are very small in number and really have nothing to do with the transgender cult.

my News Corp bingo card is getting a good work out here

You’re a silly sausage :)

How’s that “Putin won’t invade Ukraine” opinion going?

yep, I fully acknowledge I was incorrect… happy to call that from the rooftop if you so desire

you see I change my opinion and adjust views as new information becomes available.

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

my News Corp bingo card is getting a good work out here

You’re a silly sausage :)

How’s that “Putin won’t invade Ukraine” opinion going?

yep, I fully acknowledge I was incorrect… happy to call that from the rooftop if you so desire

you see I change my opinion and adjust views as new information becomes available.

Glad to hear it.

we agree that the existence of rare outliers makes the application of broad categorical simplifications useless

diddly-squat said:

Bubblecar said:

diddly-squat said:

my News Corp bingo card is getting a good work out here

You’re a silly sausage :)

How’s that “Putin won’t invade Ukraine” opinion going?

yep, I fully acknowledge I was incorrect… happy to call that from the rooftop if you so desire

you see I change my opinion and adjust views as new information becomes available.

Goodo, so here’s some more new information for you – the most active and consistent critics of transgender ideology are not “News Corps”, but left-wing feminists, lesbians and gays.

As well of course as many health professionals, science advocates and rational humanists.

Here are a few websites for you to ponder, vast numbers of other gender-critical sites out there that are worlds away from the agenda of News Corp.

https://lgballiance.org.uk/

https://www.lgballiance.org.au/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://womensdeclaration.com/en/

https://womansplaceuk.org/

https://www.feministcurrent.com/

https://fairplayforwomen.com/

Bubblecar.

https://segm.org/20-year-of-the-Dutch-Protocol-critical-analysis

buffy said:

Bubblecar.

https://segm.org/20-year-of-the-Dutch-Protocol-critical-analysis

Ta, I’ll have a peep later.

Bubblecar, this one is a long read, but Quite Interesting. It’s about terminology, science and clarity.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full

“Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language”

buffy said:

Bubblecar, this one is a long read, but Quite Interesting. It’s about terminology, science and clarity.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full

“Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language”

I’m glad there are people with the patience to explain these obvious points in detail :)

And for a rooly, rooly long read on the basic science:

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/42/3/219/6159361

“Considering Sex as a Biological Variable in Basic and Clinical Studies: An Endocrine Society Scientific Statement”

I haven’t made it all the way through that one yet.

This article date from before Sturgeon’s resignation:

…

Where should trans prisoners serve their sentences?
Nicola Sturgeon may regret repeating the mantra “trans women are women”

Feb 2nd 2023

The belief that gender identity is as important as biological sex was always going to cause problems. With children, it has led to the harmful prescription of puberty-blocking drugs. In sport, the inclusion of males on female teams has diminished women’s achievements. Yet the harms may be particularly egregious in the criminal-justice system.

In January a male rapist was placed in a women’s prison in Scotland. Isla Bryson, who changed his name from Adam Graham after being arrested (thus forcing lawyers to refer to “her penis”), may have transitioned in the hope of a softer sentence, or to access potential victims, or both. But Scotland’s embrace of self-id made it possible: since 2014 the Scottish Prison Service (sps) has allowed prisoners to be housed with members of the sex with which they identify (regardless of whether they have taken hormones or undergone surgery).

Isla Bryson has now been moved to a men’s prison. On January 29th the Scottish government said it would not place any “newly convicted transgender person with any history of violence against women…in a female prison”, pending a review. It has not said it would stop putting any males in women’s jails. Scottish Trans, a group which helped the sps draw up its policy, said a blanket ban would be wrong. Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister, agreed, saying it was important not to “even inadvertently suggest that trans women somehow pose an inherent threat to women”.

Campaigners for women’s rights (and others) point out that though most trans women pose no threat to women, there is no evidence that they pose less of a threat than other men. Most have not undergone sex-reassignment surgery. Many are heterosexual. Given that less than 2% of reported rapes lead to a conviction, claims that the prison service can weed out predatory males bear little scrutiny.

Putting males in female spaces also compromises women’s privacy. This is particularly important in prison. Women constitute less than 4% of the prison population, and tend to be locked up for low-level, non-violent crimes. A majority of them have been victims of domestic violence. One former female convict has described how she was “shaking with fear” when she was forced to share a shower block with trans women in a Scottish jail.

England and Wales also allow some trans women to be housed with female prisoners. But the Ministry of Justice has made this more difficult. In January it said no prisoner with male genitals would be housed with women. Some women’s rights campaigners hope this will include those who hold a gender-recognition certificate (GRC), which means they are currently classed as female (regardless of their genital arrangements). Calls are growing for equality legislation to be amended to clarify that the protected characteristic of “sex”, which allows some spaces and services to exclude men, means biological sex.

Where then should trans prisoners be placed? The question mostly relates to trans women, since most trans inmates are natal males (and few trans men ask to be transferred into men’s prisons). Some trans women are themselves too vulnerable to be housed with males.

Part of the answer is vulnerable-prisoner units, which are used for those considered at particular risk (including some gay men and police informants). Because of the rise in the number of trans prisoners (see chart), some reckon a separate unit for transgender prisoners should be established. Jo Phoenix, a professor of criminology at Reading University, says this would help the criminal-justice system develop better ways of working with trans prisoners, including in such areas as rehabilitation. This is a group, she says, about which too little is known.

Scotland is unlikely to consider such policies any time soon. Ms Sturgeon, who seems to have succumbed to the influence of extreme trans activists, has struggled to explain how trans women are women except when they’re violent predators. Her position has been made more difficult by her championing of Scotland’s gender-recognition bill, which would have made it much easier for someone there to get a GRC than someone in England and Wales. When Westminster blocked the bill, Ms Sturgeon called it a “full-frontal attack” on the Scottish Parliament. But it was her party that stopped changes making it harder for male sex offenders to get a GRC.

https://www.economist.com/britain/2023/02/02/where-should-trans-prisoners-serve-their-sentences?

>>Isla Bryson has now been moved to a men’s prison.<<

And kept separately from the men?

What do we do here in Australia?

buffy said:

>>Isla Bryson has now been moved to a men’s prison.<<

And kept separately from the men?

What do we do here in Australia?

Not sure that we are doing so well with it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/transgender-woman-raped-2-000-times-male-prison-a6989366.html

buffy said:

>>Isla Bryson has now been moved to a men’s prison.<<

And kept separately from the men?

What do we do here in Australia?

Here’s some research. I haven’t had time to read it. But it might be of interest to this thread.

(2017) 19 Flinders Law Journal
TRANSGENDER P RISONERS IN A USTRALIA: AN E XAMINATION OF THE ISSUES, LAW AND POLICY
SAM LYNCH AND LORANA B ARTELS †

http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/FlinLawJl/2017/8.pdf

(2017) 19 Flinders Law Journal
TRANSGENDER P RISONERS IN A USTRALIA:
AN E XAMINATION OF THE ISSUES, LAW AND
P OLICY
S AM L YNCH AND LORANA B ARTELS †

This article presents an overview of the treatment of transgender people in
Australian prisons. It commences by considering the key issues faced by
transgender prisoners, including the risk of harm by others and self-harm,
the need for and challenges in accessing medical intervention, and the
choice of where to house prisoners. Next, the article presents an overview
of some recent Australian cases involving transgender people, especially
in the context of harm, allegations of discrimination and the relevance of
transgender status to bail and sentencing decisions. The specific
experience of Indigenous transgender people is also considered. The
following section describes the extent to which transgender issues are
explicitly acknowledged in sentencing and corrections legislation,
followed by a detailed analysis of each jurisdiction’s policies on
managing transgender prisoners. The article concludes by calling for
policy and legislative reform to appropriately manage the special needs
and vulnerabilities of transgender prisoners.

Buffy and others might be interested in this recently released movie-length documentary, Affirmation Generation.

Synopsis:

Detransitioners Michelle, Laura, Cat, David, Joel and Abel tell the stories of their gender distress, transgender medicalization, and subsequent detransition. Without diagnostic clarity or mental health evaluations, their doctors quickly affirmed them as “transgender,” and mindlessly ushered them along the path of medical transition. (The “gender-affirming care” is the only treatment recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics.) These young people were harmed irrevocably by the doctors they trusted. AFFIRMATION GENERATION demonstrates how the “one-size-fits-all” medicalization – the “gender-affirming care” – has failed these patients.

The stories of the detransitioners are examined by twelve leading experts with decades of clinical practice treating gender-distressed patients: psychotherapists Lisa Marchiano, Sasha Ayad, Stella O’Malley, physician-scientist Lisa Littman, endocrinologist Dr. William Malone, MD; Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist Stephanie Winn, sociologist Dr. Michael Biggs, pediatrician Dr. Julia Mason, NYT best-selling writer Lisa Selin Davis, and LGB activist & lifelong Liberal Democrat Joey Brite, among others. The 90-minute documentary cites 45 peer-reviewed medical and journalist articles.

Full documentary on Vimeo

Bubblecar said:

Buffy and others might be interested in this recently released movie-length documentary, Affirmation Generation.

Synopsis:

Detransitioners Michelle, Laura, Cat, David, Joel and Abel tell the stories of their gender distress, transgender medicalization, and subsequent detransition. Without diagnostic clarity or mental health evaluations, their doctors quickly affirmed them as “transgender,” and mindlessly ushered them along the path of medical transition. (The “gender-affirming care” is the only treatment recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics.) These young people were harmed irrevocably by the doctors they trusted. AFFIRMATION GENERATION demonstrates how the “one-size-fits-all” medicalization – the “gender-affirming care” – has failed these patients.

The stories of the detransitioners are examined by twelve leading experts with decades of clinical practice treating gender-distressed patients: psychotherapists Lisa Marchiano, Sasha Ayad, Stella O’Malley, physician-scientist Lisa Littman, endocrinologist Dr. William Malone, MD; Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist Stephanie Winn, sociologist Dr. Michael Biggs, pediatrician Dr. Julia Mason, NYT best-selling writer Lisa Selin Davis, and LGB activist & lifelong Liberal Democrat Joey Brite, among others. The 90-minute documentary cites 45 peer-reviewed medical and journalist articles.

Full documentary on Vimeo

Holy Moly! I will have to watch this. It used to be much rigourous the process. It took about 5 years to go through the counselling process I was told in the late 80s.

I also want to apologise for reactively engaging with this thread rather than engaging with this thread in the spirit that it is meant which is a fearless looking at things from at all perspectives. I hope that you can forgive me buffy and Mr Car.

I am sorry. (Tá brón orm!) It is one sentence that I know well in Irish I do seem to make a lot of mistakes at times.

ms spock said:

Bubblecar said:

Buffy and others might be interested in this recently released movie-length documentary, Affirmation Generation.

Synopsis:

Detransitioners Michelle, Laura, Cat, David, Joel and Abel tell the stories of their gender distress, transgender medicalization, and subsequent detransition. Without diagnostic clarity or mental health evaluations, their doctors quickly affirmed them as “transgender,” and mindlessly ushered them along the path of medical transition. (The “gender-affirming care” is the only treatment recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics.) These young people were harmed irrevocably by the doctors they trusted. AFFIRMATION GENERATION demonstrates how the “one-size-fits-all” medicalization – the “gender-affirming care” – has failed these patients.

The stories of the detransitioners are examined by twelve leading experts with decades of clinical practice treating gender-distressed patients: psychotherapists Lisa Marchiano, Sasha Ayad, Stella O’Malley, physician-scientist Lisa Littman, endocrinologist Dr. William Malone, MD; Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist Stephanie Winn, sociologist Dr. Michael Biggs, pediatrician Dr. Julia Mason, NYT best-selling writer Lisa Selin Davis, and LGB activist & lifelong Liberal Democrat Joey Brite, among others. The 90-minute documentary cites 45 peer-reviewed medical and journalist articles.

Full documentary on Vimeo

Holy Moly! I will have to watch this. It used to be much rigourous the process. It took about 5 years to go through the counselling process I was told in the late 80s.

I also want to apologise for reactively engaging with this thread rather than engaging with this thread in the spirit that it is meant which is a fearless looking at things from at all perspectives. I hope that you can forgive me buffy and Mr Car.

I am sorry. (Tá brón orm!) It is one sentence that I know well in Irish I do seem to make a lot of mistakes at times.

Goodo, no problems ms spock :)

I’ll put this in here rather in Chat, although it’s not about teenagers per se.

>>“There is not a single doctor in Ballarat, currently, who will do informed consent care for gender-affirming medication or gender-affirming hormone therapy. It’s non-existent in Ballarat,” they said.<<

I’d suggest that perhaps Australian doctors are scientifically enough minded to think “informed consent” prescribing is not exactly scientific and prefer to go with the full psychology assessment and diagnosis before prescribing. This is not America. And lots of Europe don’t go with “informed consent prescribing” now either.

REF: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/transgender-health-clinic-ballarat-preston-under-delivering/102043082

buffy said:

I’ll put this in here rather in Chat, although it’s not about teenagers per se.

>>“There is not a single doctor in Ballarat, currently, who will do informed consent care for gender-affirming medication or gender-affirming hormone therapy. It’s non-existent in Ballarat,” they said.<<

I’d suggest that perhaps Australian doctors are scientifically enough minded to think “informed consent” prescribing is not exactly scientific and prefer to go with the full psychology assessment and diagnosis before prescribing. This is not America. And lots of Europe don’t go with “informed consent prescribing” now either.

REF: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-08/transgender-health-clinic-ballarat-preston-under-delivering/102043082

A big worry would be turning it into a money making industry preying on unsure/confused young people.
I read an article about a man who had a sex change to a women and regretted it, as a lot wasn’t mentioned about the surgical complications or side effects.
I imagine you’d also get what you paid for so lots of botch jobs could happen

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

OTOH this nonsense is undeniably “woke” (i.e., born of the more irrational and authoritarian strain of lefty identity politics) and also undeniably “woo” (anti-scientific bullshit).

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

Richard Dawkins has vowed to “use every one of the prohibited words” that scientists have called to be phased out because they are no longer inclusive.

On Tuesday, academics working in ecology and evolutionary biology called for the avoidance of words such as male, female, man, woman, mother, father, alien, invasive, exotic and race.

Instead, they encouraged the use of terms such as “sperm-producing” or “egg producing” or “XY/XX individual” to avoid “emphasising hetero-normative views”.

But Prof Dawkins, the eminent evolutionary biologist and author of The Selfish Gene and the God Delusion branded the suggestions ridiculous.

“The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” he told The Telegraph. “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words. I am a professional user of the English language. It is my native language.

“I am not going to be told by some teenage version of Mrs Grundy which words of my native language I may or may not use.”

Other experts also branded the alternatives “absurd” and argued they could cause confusion in scientific fields.

They also pointed out that the terms “egg producing” and “sperm producing” were simply synonyms for male and female, and continued to confirm that sex is binary.

Prof Karol Sikora, a cancer expert, said: “I certainly do not agree and such language will not be appearing in any of my scientific work.”

Commenting on the research on GB News, Francis Foster, the comedian, said: “As always with these things it’s completely meaningless, it’s going to obfuscate what we are actually talking about and it’s laughable, it’s beyond parody.”

The EEB Language Project, which was launched in this month’s Trends in Ecology and Evolution journal, is compiling a repository of “problematic words” that have been identified by US and Canadian scientists as harmful and it suggests alternatives.

For example, participants have flagged the term “citizen science” saying it could be “harmful to people who do not have a nation state”. Instead they suggest “participant science or community science”.

‘Microaggressions’
The academics warned that minority researchers were experiencing “microaggressions” from words such as “invasive”.

They also claimed that anti-trans language has been used to describe male snakes that engage in female mimicry, and warned phrases such as “sneaky mating strategy” could “normalise problematic male sexual behaviour”.

The term “invasive” or “non-native species” is also deemed to be “xenophobic, anti-immigrant, and militaristic” and could be replaced with “newly-arrived” or “nuisance species”, they suggest.

Writing in the journal, the authors said: “One of our authors trained in the USA recalls ‘how tired I was as an undergrad hearing how invasive species from other countries decimate pristine US ecosystems. It reminds me of when people tell me or other people of colour to go back to where we came from. Why would I want to be in a field that exoticizes immigrants or reinforces narratives that immigrants are a plague?’”

Even the phrase “double-blind”, which is often used to describe trials in which neither the participants nor scientists know if someone is on a drug or placebo, has been deemed potentially offensive to those with disabilities, as has the phrase “survival of the fittest”.

The authors also included a “positionality statement” in their paper warning they held “varying degrees of marginalisation and privilege based on our social identities, professional roles, and educational training”.

“Our team of authors includes graduate students, staff, postdoctoral scholars, and assistant professors employed across historically white and minority-serving institutions in the USA and Canada, and several authors have personal ties to other countries,” they warn.

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

Ridiculous.

https://www.eeblanguageproject.com/repository

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

OTOH this nonsense is undeniably “woke” (i.e., born of the more irrational and authoritarian strain of lefty identity politics) and also undeniably “woo” (anti-scientific bullshit).

I don’t know how the term is used by those who use it in a positive context because I have never seen it used in a positive context.

Invariably when it is used in a negative context there is little or no discussion of why this wokeness is objectionable, so I stop reading.

It’s much like the term “politically correct”.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

OTOH this nonsense is undeniably “woke” (i.e., born of the more irrational and authoritarian strain of lefty identity politics) and also undeniably “woo” (anti-scientific bullshit).

I don’t know how the term is used by those who use it in a positive context because I have never seen it used in a positive context.

Invariably when it is used in a negative context there is little or no discussion of why this wokeness is objectionable, so I stop reading.

It’s much like the term “politically correct”.

it is never used in a positive context. it is used in a pejorative way every time.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

points to the emergence of a loving authoritarianism, where thoughts and presumed troubles of thoughts expressed by such words are strongly discouraged by discouragements to use the words

all helps people have the right thoughts, helps with Right Think, correct thinkies

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

OTOH this nonsense is undeniably “woke” (i.e., born of the more irrational and authoritarian strain of lefty identity politics) and also undeniably “woo” (anti-scientific bullshit).

I don’t know how the term is used by those who use it in a positive context because I have never seen it used in a positive context.

Invariably when it is used in a negative context there is little or no discussion of why this wokeness is objectionable, so I stop reading.

It’s much like the term “politically correct”.

it is never used in a positive context. it is used in a pejorative way every time.

Well that is certainly consistent with my observations.

But I don’t read/watch/listen to everything.

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

points to the emergence of a loving authoritarianism, where thoughts and presumed troubles of thoughts expressed by such words are strongly discouraged by discouragements to use the words

all helps people have the right thoughts, helps with Right Think, correct thinkies

The Internet tells me that the word means:

“alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism:”

so on that basis I certainly agree we should all be as woke as we can.

The Rev Dodgson said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I don’t know how the term is used by those who use it in a positive context because I have never seen it used in a positive context.

Invariably when it is used in a negative context there is little or no discussion of why this wokeness is objectionable, so I stop reading.

It’s much like the term “politically correct”.

it is never used in a positive context. it is used in a pejorative way every time.

Well that is certainly consistent with my observations.

But I don’t read/watch/listen to everything.

you’d need a brain the size of a planet to do that!

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

points to the emergence of a loving authoritarianism, where thoughts and presumed troubles of thoughts expressed by such words are strongly discouraged by discouragements to use the words

all helps people have the right thoughts, helps with Right Think, correct thinkies

The Internet tells me that the word means:

“alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism:”

so on that basis I certainly agree we should all be as woke as we can.

more than alert I think, of activist territory, expansionist I might add, without borders or boundaries

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

points to the emergence of a loving authoritarianism, where thoughts and presumed troubles of thoughts expressed by such words are strongly discouraged by discouragements to use the words

all helps people have the right thoughts, helps with Right Think, correct thinkies

The Internet tells me that the word means:

“alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism:”

so on that basis I certainly agree we should all be as woke as we can.

more than alert I think, of activist territory, expansionist I might add, without borders or boundaries

How did you reach this conclusion?

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The Internet tells me that the word means:

“alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism:”

so on that basis I certainly agree we should all be as woke as we can.

more than alert I think, of activist territory, expansionist I might add, without borders or boundaries

How did you reach this conclusion?

happening right in front of all, on the news etc every day

not complaining, whatever, I don’t consider my self a force of nature, wouldn’t want be, be that effectual

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I wonder what that was about, but whenever I see the word “woke” used as a term of abuse, I have to stop reading.

points to the emergence of a loving authoritarianism, where thoughts and presumed troubles of thoughts expressed by such words are strongly discouraged by discouragements to use the words

all helps people have the right thoughts, helps with Right Think, correct thinkies

The Internet tells me that the word means:

“alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism:”

so on that basis I certainly agree we should all be as woke as we can.

I still prefer the older words of aware and awake.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

points to the emergence of a loving authoritarianism, where thoughts and presumed troubles of thoughts expressed by such words are strongly discouraged by discouragements to use the words

all helps people have the right thoughts, helps with Right Think, correct thinkies

The Internet tells me that the word means:

“alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism:”

so on that basis I certainly agree we should all be as woke as we can.

I still prefer the older words of aware and awake.

And awakened.

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

Ridiculous.

https://www.eeblanguageproject.com/repository

Actually looking at the top 24 terms, it’s a more mixed bag than the criticism implies.

The “harmful terms” have been submitted by crowdsourcing, and it’s clear that some gender-critical people have joined in, since “Gender” is included in the top 10:

Identified Term: Gender

Shared explanation for potential harm: Gender, a social construct, is often conflated with sex

Potential Alternative: Sex

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

Ridiculous.

https://www.eeblanguageproject.com/repository

roffle

Bubblecar said:

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

Ridiculous.

https://www.eeblanguageproject.com/repository

Actually looking at the top 24 terms, it’s a more mixed bag than the criticism implies.

The “harmful terms” have been submitted by crowdsourcing, and it’s clear that some gender-critical people have joined in, since “Gender” is included in the top 10:

Identified Term: Gender

Shared explanation for potential harm: Gender, a social construct, is often conflated with sex

Potential Alternative: Sex

Possibly only remotely related to the present discussion.

I’m reading “Is History Fiction” at the moment. It’s reasonably heavy going. But I’m presently reading about the changes in language from Women’s Liberation/Feminism. It seems (according to Ann Curthoys), that “gender” gradually replaced “patriarchy” in academic writing of history during the 1980s. Because “patriarchy suggests a fatalistic submission which allows no space for the complexity of women’s defiance” (Sheila Rowbotham). I’m presently reading about “adding women to history is not the same as adding womens history to history”.

Anyway, no wonder those of us who are a bit older have a problem with the word “gender” when it has had quite a few iterations and meanings over our lifetime.

Ian said:

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

More woke gender woo attempting to encroach on science:

A new group calling itself the EEB Language Project made its public debut last month. The group, made up of just over a dozen U.S. and Canadian scientists, wants to change what it calls “potentially harmful terms used in ecology and evolutionary biology;” those “harmful terms” include words such as man, woman, mother, and father. In an interview with The Telegraph, Richard Dawkins retorted, “The only possible response is contemptuous ridicule,” vowing “I shall continue to use every one of the prohibited words.”

Behind a paywall

Ridiculous.

https://www.eeblanguageproject.com/repository

roffle

Most of it is laughable, but note that “Gender” managed to sneak in there to counter the gender woo.

I agree that scientists shouldn’t use the term “gender”, they should use the term “sex”.

well all right, like most words can be used in the way of harm

Bubblecar said:

Ian said:

Michael V said:

Ridiculous.

https://www.eeblanguageproject.com/repository

roffle

Most of it is laughable, but note that “Gender” managed to sneak in there to counter the gender woo.

I agree that scientists shouldn’t use the term “gender”, they should use the term “sex”.

what about social scientists

SCIENCE said:

Bubblecar said:

Ian said:

roffle

Most of it is laughable, but note that “Gender” managed to sneak in there to counter the gender woo.

I agree that scientists shouldn’t use the term “gender”, they should use the term “sex”.

what about social scientists

Fine, they can discuss gender as a social construct.

Legal action may change transgender care in America
Some detransitioners are starting to take their doctors to court

Mar 7th 2023 | WASHINGTON, DC

Few issues divide Americans, and their politicians, as much as medical care for children with gender dysphoria. Governors in six Republican states have signed bills that restrict or ban such care, which some see as “child abuse”. In response, some of these states are being sued, and governors in several Democratic states are putting protections in place for a treatment that they see as “life-saving”. Do not expect the politicians to try to settle their differences—they have too much to gain from whipping up outrage among their supporters. Instead the serious action is likely to play out in the courts.

On February 22nd a lawsuit was filed that could mark the start of a backlash. Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old who has become a voice for detransitioners in America, is suing Kaiser Permanente, a large American medical provider, for medical negligence. Ms Cole decided at the age of 12 that she was a boy, was put on puberty blockers and testosterone at 13 and underwent a double mastectomy at 15, before changing her mind and detransitioning at 16.

The complaint, filed in California by the Centre for American Liberty, a conservative non-profit that supports Ms Cole, accuses Kaiser of performing a “mutilating, mimicry sex-change experiment” on a vulnerable girl instead of focusing on her complex mental health. Her lawyer, Harmeet Dhillon, said medical professionals “permanently disfigured her for profit”. Ms Cole, whose lawyers say she meets the criteria for being on the autism spectrum, says she is particularly concerned about her fertility and about pain and discomfort caused by skin grafts.

Kaiser’s broad statement, in response to a request to comment on the allegations, says it “provides patient centred gender-affirming care that is consistent with the standards of medical care and excellence”. It emphasises that it respects “the patients and their families’ informed decisions about their personal health”. But a crucial part of the claim is that Ms Cole says she and her parents were not informed of alternative, less invasive treatments, such as psychiatric care. According to the complaint, physicians suggested that her gender dysphoria would “never resolve unless she chemically/surgically transitioned”. Ms Cole told a rally outside the Capitol in September that the clinic presented her case to her parents as a choice between having a suicidal daughter or a trans son.

Proponents of adolescent medical transition say detransitioning is very rare. Opponents point to two recent studies that suggest 20-30% of patients may discontinue hormone treatment within a few years.

So far there has been little litigation from “detransitioners”, people who received care for gender dysphoria but then decided to stop or reverse the treatment. The medical procedures they underwent are relatively new; it can take years for people to change their minds or to start experiencing negative effects. Moreover, many states have short statutes of limitations, says Candice Jackson, a west-coast lawyer. Some state politicians have promised to change those restrictions.

Another complication is that, in contrast to botched surgery, claiming and measuring harm is more difficult when a doctor has provided exactly what was promised. Muddying matters further still is the belief that medical practitioners are shielded from litigation by the fact that they can say they were following their medical bodies’ guidelines on gender-affirming care, a little-tested assumption.

Few law firms want to risk being labelled transphobic, being “cancelled” or losing clients. Ms Jackson co-founded her own firm after she realised how hard it was for detransitioners to find legal representation. There has been little money in this business, at least up to now. And, adds one paediatrician, many detransitioners have a history of mental illness. They may make poor witnesses. But a credible star witness could break the mould. This may turn out to be Ms Cole, whose lawyers claim they have been contacted by others from across America, who are preparing lawsuits on behalf of their detransitioner clients.

Cases such as this will take time to be heard and ruled on; some may be settled behind closed doors. Ms Jackson says she is preparing for an arduous battle, much like the one fought against Big Tobacco. Legal victories for detransitioners could have knock-on consequences, by making insurers come to regard gender-transition treatments as a liability. That would push up the costs of providing the treatment, and make providers more careful about advertising.

Most Americans favour protecting trans people from discrimination, but they sharply disagree on medically transitioning children. Whereas 72% of Republicans believe it should be illegal to provide a minor with medical care for gender transition, just 26% of Democrats agree, according to the Pew Research Centre, a think-tank. Activists who believe such care saves lives have tried to discredit Ms Cole, by focusing on the support she receives from firebrands on the right. But the facts of this case—if they are as claimed—could give at least some of them pause for thought.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/03/07/legal-action-may-change-transgender-care-in-america?

Witty Rejoinder said:

Legal action may change transgender care in America
Some detransitioners are starting to take their doctors to court

Mar 7th 2023 | WASHINGTON, DC

Few issues divide Americans, and their politicians, as much as medical care for children with gender dysphoria. Governors in six Republican states have signed bills that restrict or ban such care, which some see as “child abuse”. In response, some of these states are being sued, and governors in several Democratic states are putting protections in place for a treatment that they see as “life-saving”. Do not expect the politicians to try to settle their differences—they have too much to gain from whipping up outrage among their supporters. Instead the serious action is likely to play out in the courts.

On February 22nd a lawsuit was filed that could mark the start of a backlash. Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old who has become a voice for detransitioners in America, is suing Kaiser Permanente, a large American medical provider, for medical negligence. Ms Cole decided at the age of 12 that she was a boy, was put on puberty blockers and testosterone at 13 and underwent a double mastectomy at 15, before changing her mind and detransitioning at 16.

The complaint, filed in California by the Centre for American Liberty, a conservative non-profit that supports Ms Cole, accuses Kaiser of performing a “mutilating, mimicry sex-change experiment” on a vulnerable girl instead of focusing on her complex mental health. Her lawyer, Harmeet Dhillon, said medical professionals “permanently disfigured her for profit”. Ms Cole, whose lawyers say she meets the criteria for being on the autism spectrum, says she is particularly concerned about her fertility and about pain and discomfort caused by skin grafts.

Kaiser’s broad statement, in response to a request to comment on the allegations, says it “provides patient centred gender-affirming care that is consistent with the standards of medical care and excellence”. It emphasises that it respects “the patients and their families’ informed decisions about their personal health”. But a crucial part of the claim is that Ms Cole says she and her parents were not informed of alternative, less invasive treatments, such as psychiatric care. According to the complaint, physicians suggested that her gender dysphoria would “never resolve unless she chemically/surgically transitioned”. Ms Cole told a rally outside the Capitol in September that the clinic presented her case to her parents as a choice between having a suicidal daughter or a trans son.

Proponents of adolescent medical transition say detransitioning is very rare. Opponents point to two recent studies that suggest 20-30% of patients may discontinue hormone treatment within a few years.

So far there has been little litigation from “detransitioners”, people who received care for gender dysphoria but then decided to stop or reverse the treatment. The medical procedures they underwent are relatively new; it can take years for people to change their minds or to start experiencing negative effects. Moreover, many states have short statutes of limitations, says Candice Jackson, a west-coast lawyer. Some state politicians have promised to change those restrictions.

Another complication is that, in contrast to botched surgery, claiming and measuring harm is more difficult when a doctor has provided exactly what was promised. Muddying matters further still is the belief that medical practitioners are shielded from litigation by the fact that they can say they were following their medical bodies’ guidelines on gender-affirming care, a little-tested assumption.

Few law firms want to risk being labelled transphobic, being “cancelled” or losing clients. Ms Jackson co-founded her own firm after she realised how hard it was for detransitioners to find legal representation. There has been little money in this business, at least up to now. And, adds one paediatrician, many detransitioners have a history of mental illness. They may make poor witnesses. But a credible star witness could break the mould. This may turn out to be Ms Cole, whose lawyers claim they have been contacted by others from across America, who are preparing lawsuits on behalf of their detransitioner clients.

Cases such as this will take time to be heard and ruled on; some may be settled behind closed doors. Ms Jackson says she is preparing for an arduous battle, much like the one fought against Big Tobacco. Legal victories for detransitioners could have knock-on consequences, by making insurers come to regard gender-transition treatments as a liability. That would push up the costs of providing the treatment, and make providers more careful about advertising.

Most Americans favour protecting trans people from discrimination, but they sharply disagree on medically transitioning children. Whereas 72% of Republicans believe it should be illegal to provide a minor with medical care for gender transition, just 26% of Democrats agree, according to the Pew Research Centre, a think-tank. Activists who believe such care saves lives have tried to discredit Ms Cole, by focusing on the support she receives from firebrands on the right. But the facts of this case—if they are as claimed—could give at least some of them pause for thought.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/03/07/legal-action-may-change-transgender-care-in-america?

Thanks Witty. I’ve been waiting for this to start hitting the courts in America. I think it’s going to revolve around that informed consent thing. Informed consent actually means the patient/parents/guardians really understand the procedure and consequences. My understanding is that in America at least, it is sufficient for the child to say they are trans, and no psychological diagnosis is necessary for puberty blockers to be commenced. So then you come to whether there was full disclosure of things like: if we do this (puberty blockers and opposite sex hormones), this person will be sterile, will be taking hormones for life, other parts of physical development (bones and cardiovascular) are affected.

Bump

Chase had to go to court on his 16th birthday so he could be himself

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/everyday/102105748

…

Don’t know if I disagree with these rules for 16yos.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Chase had to go to court on his 16th birthday so he could be himself

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/everyday/102105748

…

Don’t know if I disagree with these rules for 16yos.

At least there apparently were proper psych assessments and presumably a real diagnosis. In America that is not required. The RCH does have quite stringent assessments, I’m led to understand.

(Moving my response here to the proper thread)

Most trans adults say transitioning made them more satisfied with their lives
The Washington Post and KFF surveyed one of the largest randomized samples of U.S. transgender adults to date about their childhoods, feelings and lives
By Casey Parks, Emily Guskin and Scott Clement
March 23, 2023 at 6:00 a.m. EDT

Transgender Americans experience stigma and systemic inequality in many aspects of their lives, including education, work and health-care access, a wide-ranging Washington Post-KFF poll finds.

Many have been harassed or verbally abused. They’ve been kicked out of their homes, denied health care and accosted in bathrooms. A quarter have been physically attacked, and about 1 in 5 have been fired or lost out on a promotion because of their gender identity. They are more than twice as likely as the population at large to have experienced serious mental health struggles such as depression.

Yet most trans adults say transitioning has made them more satisfied with their lives.

“Living doesn’t hurt anymore,” said TC Caldwell, a 37-year-old Black nonbinary person from Montgomery, Ala. “It feels good to just breathe and be myself.”

The Post-KFF poll is the largest nongovernmental survey of U.S. transgender adults to rely on random sampling methods. More than 500 people who identify as trans answered questions about their childhoods, their feelings and their lives post-transition.

The poll builds on a growing but limited body of research. In 2015, the National Center for Transgender Equality polled 27,715 trans people from the United States and its territories, and the nonprofit is in the middle of analyzing data from a much larger pool of respondents who filled out the volunteer survey last year. That project, along with two federal health surveys and a random-sample poll conducted by the Williams Institute, have offered significant insight into the community, but trans people say additional data is needed.

Josie Caballero, the director of the National Center for Transgender Equality’s U.S. Trans Survey and a trans woman herself, said polls like it and the Post-KFF survey “provide critical tools for researchers, policymakers and advocates seeking to better understand the needs of transgender people to find ways to improve their lives.”

Other studies have shown that the trans community has grown to an estimated 1.3 million adults, and surveys by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention find that the trans adult population is younger than the cisgender adult population at large. Most trans adults are younger than 35 years old.

The Post-KFF survey finds that trans adults hold widely different ideas about what it means to transition. While most trans people have socially transitioned, meaning they’ve changed their clothing, names or pronouns, far fewer have medically transitioned. Less than a third have used hormone treatments or puberty blockers, and about 1 in 6 have undergone gender-affirming surgery or other surgical treatment to change their physical appearance.

A 62 percent majority of trans adults identify as “trans, gender non-conforming” or “trans, non-binary,” while 33 percent identify as a “trans man” or “trans woman.” Nearly half ask people to refer to them with they/them pronouns, although most say they sometimes use she/her or he/him pronouns.

“I think there’s a pushback against this idea that we have to fit in one of those boxes,” said Josie Nixon, a 30-year-old nonbinary person who lives in Denver. “There are certainly binary trans men and women who fit well in those boxes and love being there, but I think there is a trend, especially as more young people find themselves, to say, ‘These boxes don’t do me justice, and they don’t represent me in a way that encompasses all of who I am, so I’d rather exist in between or outside those boxes.’”

Childhood
Most trans adults say they knew when they were young that their gender identity was different from the sex they were assigned at birth. About a third (32 percent) say they began to understand their own gender identity when they were 10 or younger, and another third (34 percent) realized it between the ages of 11 and 17.

Alyssa Rogers, a White 26-year-old trans woman who lives in Austin, said she first knew when she was around 5 years old. Her mother had been arrested for drug use, and Rogers was sent to live in an orphanage. While she was there, Rogers tried on a pink princess dress for the first time, and she immediately felt “right.”

“It was the first time I got to do something like that,” Rogers said. “It was nice. I wanted to share it, but I was scared to because I knew it wouldn’t be accepted.”

Rogers eventually moved in with her grandparents, and like other trans people in the Post-KFF survey, she struggled with depression and loneliness in her childhood.

Compared with Americans as a whole, trans adults are more than twice as likely to say they experienced serious mental health problems such as depression or anxiety growing up (78 percent versus 32 percent for the U.S. overall).

Just over half of trans adults say they had a happy childhood (53 percent), but that rate is far lower than the 81 percent of Americans overall who say their childhood was happy.

Most trans people (59 percent) say they lacked a trusted adult to talk to while growing up, including 64 percent of trans people of color. Those who did have a trusted adult were much more likely to report feeling safe in their childhood homes and to have a happy childhood.

School marked one of the greatest stressors for trans children. More than 4 in 10 say they felt unsafe at school, and one-quarter felt unsafe participating in sports or in other youth activities.

Rogers said she was an “outcast” at school, so few classmates commented when she began cross-dressing as a teenager. But her family grew upset, she said. Rogers said her grandparents committed her to a mental hospital and later sent her to conversion therapy in Colorado. The state has since banned the practice, but Rogers’s experience was commonplace. One in 4 trans adults say they attended religious services as a child or teenager that tried to change their sexual orientation or gender identity, and about 1 in 10 say they attended conversion or reparative therapy.

“I definitely thought about killing myself,” Rogers said. “I was in a terrible situation.”

For years, Rogers went to bed hungry, sometimes out of necessity, and sometimes because she believed if she didn’t eat, she wouldn’t grow. If she didn’t grow, she thought, she could pass more easily as a girl.

A guide to the words we use in our gender coverage

A few years after Rogers went through conversion therapy, she decided to start taking estrogen. She knew many in her family would reject her once she told them she was a woman.

Though 69 percent of trans people who are out to at least some immediate family members say their families are at least “somewhat supportive” of their gender identity, about 3 in 10 say their families are not supportive, including 13 percent who are “very unsupportive.” Similarly, 29 percent of trans adults say they experienced homelessness or got kicked out of their home while they were growing up, rising to 38 percent among trans people of color.

“I knew I was going to lose some of my family,” Rogers said. “It wasn’t a question of if. It was a question of how many.”

Transition
Poll data shows that there is no one timeline for trans people. Three in 10 say they began telling others they were trans before the age of 18, while about a third (32 percent) came out between the ages of 18 and 25. Others came out later, and 12 percent of trans adults have not told anyone.

For Nixon, the 30-year-old nonbinary person who lives in Denver, the process started six years ago. One night, they cried until they fell asleep, and when they woke up, they brushed their teeth, looked in the mirror and said the word for the first time.

“I just said, ‘You’re trans,’” Nixon recalled. “Then I crumpled on the floor, crying. I probably cried for like a week.”

What a trans person does as part of their transition varies, and increasingly, younger people are opting out of a path from one binary gender to the other. The poll reveals that most adults who identify as trans or transgender prefer the terms “nonbinary” (40 percent) or “gender non-conforming” (22 percent), while 22 percent identify as a “trans woman” and 12 percent identify as a “trans man.”

Nixon lived in Grand Rapids, Mich., when they decided to transition. The town felt conservative, and Nixon didn’t want to live in a place where everyone knew them as a guy, so they decided to relocate. About one in 4 (27 percent) trans adults say they have moved to a different place because they thought it would be a more accepting location, including larger shares of urban (35 percent) trans adults.

“I literally Googled ‘Where do trans people live,’” Nixon said, “And I found Colorado.”

Nixon initially moved to Boulder. There, they changed their name, grew out their hair and started taking estrogen.

Currently, how much of the time do you physically present as a gender (such as a man, woman, or nonbinary) that is different from the one assigned to you at birth?

Large majorities of trans adults have changed their physical appearance in ways that reflect their gender identity, with 77 percent changing the types of clothes they wear and 76 percent changing their hairstyle or grooming habits. Fewer have used hormone treatments (31 percent), legally changed their names (24 percent), or undergone gender-affirming surgery or other surgical treatments to change their physical appearance (16 percent).

Trans adults who identify as either a “trans man” or a “trans woman” are more than three times as likely as those who identify as nonbinary or gender non-conforming to say they have used hormone treatments (60 percent) or undergone gender-affirming surgery (31 percent).

Though Nixon experienced repeated discrimination, including in Colorado, they soon found themself feeling happy in a way they never had before. They’d always struggled to make friends as a young person, in large part, they think, because they were hiding a huge part of themself, and kids are adept at picking out inauthenticity. As Nixon’s hair grew and their body changed, people sometimes harassed them in bathrooms, and a roommate “came out” as transphobic. Still, Nixon felt newly relieved.

“The worst day I’ve ever had as a trans person is still better than the best days I had pre-transition,” Nixon said. “That’s not to say that I don’t look fondly on the memories of my life, but at the end of the day, not living authentically was terrible, and I would rather live authentically than hide a version of myself to appease people I don’t even know.”

Among those who present themselves differently from their gender assigned at birth, the Post-KFF poll finds 78 percent say that living as a different gender has made them more satisfied with their lives. More than 4 in 10 say they are “a lot” more satisfied.

Trans people don’t always present as a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth.

Three in 10 trans people physically present as a different gender all of the time, while 20 percent do so “most of the time.” Another 34 percent present as a different gender some of the time, and a small but significant share (16 percent) say they “never” physically present as a gender different from their sex assigned at birth.

In Colorado, Nixon said they are “visibly trans” every day, but strangers perceive them in different ways.

“When I answer the phone, I get ‘Hello, sir’ 100 percent of the time,” Nixon said. “But when I go to the grocery store, I get ‘he,’ ‘she’ and ‘they’ on a daily basis. I have decided that that’s where I want to be. I want to live in this androgynous space.”

Hardship
Though 57 percent of trans adults say they are satisfied with their lives as a whole, that rate is lower than the U.S. adult population at large, of whom 73 percent say they are satisfied.

More than half (56 percent) of trans adults say they have felt anxious at least “often” in the past year, compared with 31 percent of cisgender adults. And they are more than twice as likely as cis people to say they felt depressed (48 percent, compared with 21 percent) or lonely (45 percent, compared with 21 percent) in the past year.

Tim McCoy, a White 72-year-old trans man who lives in Syracuse, N.Y., said he has suffered from chronic depression and anxiety since he was young. Those feelings initially dissipated after he began taking testosterone.

“I was floating on a cloud when I first transitioned,” he said. “I just thought that was the answer to all my problems. I felt wonderful, but after I had transitioned for about five years, the depression came back. Transitioning has definitely made my quality of life better, but it’s not the answer to everything.”

That’s due, he said, in large part to the discrimination trans people face. That has worsened as the political climate has turned increasingly hostile toward trans people, he said.

“You always have that fear of what’s going to happen when you tell somebody you’re transgender, especially these days,” he said. “That definitely affects one’s quality of life. It’s a constant stress.”

One in 4 trans adults say they have been physically attacked because of their gender identity, gender expression or sexual identity, and more than 6 in 10 (64 percent) say they have been verbally attacked.

Tessa Jelani, a 26-year-old Black trans woman from Washington, D.C., said she was harassed often before she learned the best ways to feminize her appearance.

“At the beginning of my transition, I got hit with a bat upside my head,” Jelani said. “I remember him saying, ‘I’m not going to hit a woman, but I’ll hit you.’”

Trans adults experience discrimination in a range of day-to-day activities, according to the Post-KFF poll. About half (49 percent) say they have been asked unnecessary or invasive questions at their place of work, and 21 percent report being fired or denied a job or promotion because of their gender identity or expression or sexual identity.

Beyond the workplace, 17 percent say their identity has led them to be refused service from a health-care provider. Another 13 percent report being evicted or denied housing, including 21 percent of trans people of color.

Caldwell, the nonbinary person from Montgomery, Ala., said they went in for a coronavirus test and chest X-ray last year, and when the providers discovered Caldwell was trans, the quality of care changed.

“To me, it was a regular routine checkup, but they switched my nurse to a male nurse, and nobody would talk to me,” Caldwell said. “It was an all-Black clinic, and it felt defeating to know that even your own people will treat you like ‘other.’ Looking back, a lot of times, I feel like it’s just ignorance. They might have even thought they were helping.”

Still, both Caldwell and Jelani said they have found a growing acceptance in recent years. Alabama has passed a string of anti-trans bills, but Caldwell said their fellow Alabamians often surprise them with their support. The first time Caldwell went to pick up their prescription for testosterone, for instance, they felt nervous until they met the pharmacist.

“I was shaking,” Caldwell said. “But I had the most affirming pharmacist, a Black lady, who was like, ‘Are you okay?’ When I told her what was going on, she said, ‘Oh, you’re going to be great.’ And she walked me through how to do the syringe, how to measure out my dosage, the difference between the drawing needle and the injection.”

A majority of trans people believe people’s perceptions are changing for the better. Fifty-five percent believe people in the United States are more accepting of them than they were 10 years ago, and Jelani thinks that will only improve as more people get to know their trans community members.

“The younger generation is showing how accepting they are,” Jelani said. “They are willing to love people’s differences, and it’s definitely having an effect on the older generation and showing them to loosen up. Not everything has to be explained in order for you to agree with it. We have always been here. We’re always going to be here, and y’all can’t stop it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/23/transgender-adults-transitioning-poll/?

That’s largely about the population of people who transition after they have done puberty. The problems with the recent treatments is that puberty is blocked, and then affirming hormones are used. And in America (that I know of) a proper psych assessment and diagnosis is not made. You need that to sort out the other things first, such as depression and autism which muddy the waters. I was surprised at the small number going the whole way with surgery too, given it is adults.

buffy said:

That’s largely about the population of people who transition after they have done puberty. The problems with the recent treatments is that puberty is blocked, and then affirming hormones are used. And in America (that I know of) a proper psych assessment and diagnosis is not made. You need that to sort out the other things first, such as depression and autism which muddy the waters. I was surprised at the small number going the whole way with surgery too, given it is adults.

Yeah. It doesn’t directly address transitioning in teenagers but for want of a better thread I put it here.

Bubblecar: another study has been put up on the SEGM site.

https://segm.org/study-of-1655-cases-lends-support-to-ROGD

buffy said:

Bubblecar: another study has been put up on the SEGM site.

https://segm.org/study-of-1655-cases-lends-support-to-ROGD

Ta.

What America has got wrong about gender medicine
Too many doctors have suspended their professional judgment

Apr 5th 2023

For many Americans, the great tragedy of trans rights is the story of how Republican governors and state legislatures are stigmatising some of society’s most put-upon people—all too often in a cynical search for votes. This newspaper shares their dismay at these vicious tactics. In a free society it is not the government’s place to tell adults how to live and dress, which pronouns to use, or what to do with their bodies.

However, nestled within that first tragedy appears to be a second—this time a tragedy of good intentions. On different sides of the Atlantic, medical experts have weighed the evidence for the treatment of gender-dysphoric children and teenagers, those who feel intense discomfort with their biological sex. This treatment is life-changing and can lead to infertility. Broadly speaking, the consensus in America is that medical intervention and gender affirmation are beneficial and should be more accessible. Across Europe several countries now believe that the evidence is lacking and such interventions should be used sparingly and need further study. The Europeans are right.

The number of children and teenagers diagnosed with gender dysphoria in America has soared. One estimate found that there were over 42,000 new diagnoses in 2021, three times the count in 2017. Gender-affirming care, as America understands it, stipulates counselling, which can lead to puberty-blocking drugs and subsequently cross-sex hormones (testosterone for girls and oestrogen for boys—used, by one estimate, in 10% of cases). Occasionally, there may be mastectomies and, very rarely in the under 18s, the construction of ersatz genitals from flaps of skin or pieces of bowel. The goal is to align the patient’s body with the way that they think about themselves.

Proponents say that the care is vital to the well-being of dysphoric children. Failure to provide it, they say, is transphobic, and risks patients killing themselves. The affirmative approach is supported by the American Academy of Paediatrics, and by most of the country’s main medical bodies.

Arrayed against those supporters are the medical systems of Britain, Finland, France, Norway and Sweden, all of which have raised the alarm, describing treatments as “experimental” and urging doctors to proceed with “great medical caution”. There is growing concern that, if teenagers are offered this care too widely, the harms will outweigh the benefits.

As we report in this week’s briefing, one concern is that doctors have changed the safeguards built into the original treatment design, devised in the Netherlands in the 1980s and 1990s. Twenty years ago, the typical patient was male, with a long history of dysphoria. Children and teenagers with psychological problems besides dysphoria were disqualified from treatment. These days most patients are adolescent girls. Their dysphoria may be relatively recent. Some are depressed, anxious or autistic, but mental illness is no longer a hard barrier to treatment. Do these patients respond to drugs and surgery in the same way?

It is unclear. And that is because the clinical evidence for intervention in broader categories of adolescents is vague. A formal British review of the clinical evidence, prepared in 2020, found that almost all the studies in this area were of poor quality; one in Sweden came to similar conclusions. When researchers find benefits, the effects tend to be small. It is often impossible to conclude whether they are lasting, or how much the credit is down to drugs or counselling or both. Some older studies suggest that, left alone, most children will naturally grow out of their dysphoric feelings. The long-term effects of puberty-blockers remain unknown, though there are worries about brain development and decreasing bone density.

Medical bodies build safeguards into their treatment protocols, but they vary. And in any case practitioners may ignore them. Whistle-blowers say that some children and teenagers are being put on puberty-blockers after only a cursory assessment. A growing number of “detransitioners”, who regret their treatment, say that they have been left scarred, infertile, with irreversibly altered appearances and were unhappy with how their dysphoria was treated.

America’s professional bodies acknowledge the science is low quality, but say they have a duty to alleviate patients’ mental anguish. Some patients suffer regret in all medical procedures, from knee surgery to liposuction. And they observe that the most shocking allegations about poor treatment are only anecdotes. Speaking on American radio last year, Rachel Levine, assistant secretary for health and a paediatrician, was very clear: “There is no argument among medical professionals…about the value and the importance of gender-affirming care.”

Except that there is. And when medical staff raise concerns—that teenage girls may be caught up in a social contagion, say, or that some parents see transition as a way to have a straight daughter rather than a gay son—they have been vilified as transphobic and, in some cases, suffered personal and professional opprobrium.

Medical science is not supposed to work this way. Treatments are supposed to be backed by a growing body of well-researched evidence that weighs the risks and benefits of intervention. The responsibility is all the heavier when treatments are irreversible and the decisions about whether to go ahead are being taken by vulnerable adolescents and their anxious parents.

What to do? To some, the uncertainties that surround medical interventions are grounds for an outright ban. In fact, the lack of evidence cuts both ways. Perhaps, when proper trials are complete, their proponents will be proved correct. The right policy is therefore the one Britain’s nhs and the Karolinska Institute in Sweden seem to be working towards. This would promote psychotherapy and reserve puberty-blockers and cross-sex hormones for a system in which patients would almost always be enrolled in a well-run clinical trial.

Ideally, American regulators would insist on trials, too. If the culture wars put that compromise out of reach, professional bodies should uphold their own protocols by welcoming whistle-blowers and advance science by calling on patients to be in trials. Sometimes, they will need to protest against illiberal laws. Above all, they should not add to the tragedy.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/04/05/what-america-has-got-wrong-about-gender-medicine?

Thanks Witty, I’ll read that now. It will stop me looking at yet more fungus pictures.

Might as well go in here:

Michael V said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Any y’all able to break the pay-wall and post? 12ft ladder isn’t able to here:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/the-wall-street-journal/a-biologist-explains-why-sex-is-binary/news-story/51f6a304e5ab3cb8e5be77d276d5b523?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-biologist-explains-why-sex-is-binary-gender-male-female-intersex-medical-supreme-court-ketanji-brown-jackson-lia-thomas-3d22237e

Link

The transgender movement has left many intelligent Americans confused about sex. Asked to define the word “woman” during her Supreme Court confirmation hearings last year, Ketanji Brown Jackson demurred, saying “I’m not a biologist.” I am a biologist, and I’m here to help.

Are sex categories in humans empirically real, immutable and binary, or are they mere “social constructs”? The question has public-policy implications related to sex-based legal protections and medicine, including whether males should be allowed in female sports, prisons and other spaces that have historically been segregated by sex for reasons of fairness and safety.

Chase Strangio of the American Civil Liberties Union frequently claims that the binary concept of sex is a recent invention “exclusively for the purposes of excluding trans people from legal protections.” Scottish politician Maggie Chapman asserted in December that her rejection of the “binary and immutable” nature of sex was her motivation for pursuing “comprehensive gender recognition for nonbinary people in Scotland.” (“Nonbinary” people are those who “identify” as neither male nor female.)

When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.

Intersex people, whose genitalia appear ambiguous or mixed, don’t undermine the sex binary. Many gender ideologues, however, falsely claim the existence of intersex conditions renders the categories “male” and “female” arbitrary and meaningless. In “Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex” (1998), the historian of science Alice Dreger writes: “Hermaphroditism causes a great deal of confusion, more than one might at first appreciate, because—as we will see again and again—the discovery of a ‘hermaphroditic’ body raises doubts not just about the particular body in question, but about all bodies. The questioned body forces us to ask what exactly it is—if anything—that makes the rest of us unquestionable.”

In reality, the existence of borderline cases no more raises questions about everyone else’s sex than the existence of dawn and dusk casts doubt on day and night. For the vast majority of people, their sex is obvious. And our society isn’t experiencing a sudden dramatic surge in people born with ambiguous genitalia. We are experiencing a surge in people who are unambiguously one sex claiming to “identify” as the opposite sex or as something other than male or female.

Gender ideology seeks to portray sex as so incomprehensibly complex and multivariable that our traditional practice of classifying people as simply either male or female is grossly outdated and should be abandoned for a revolutionary concept of “gender identity.” This entails that males wouldn’t be barred from female sports, women’s prisons or any other space previously segregated according to our supposedly antiquated notions of “biological sex,” so long as they “identify” as female.

But “intersex” and “transgender” mean entirely different things. Intersex people have rare developmental conditions that result in apparent sex ambiguity. Most transgender people aren’t sexually ambiguous at all but merely “identify” as something other than their biological sex.

Once you’re conscious of this distinction, you will begin to notice gender ideologues attempting to steer discussions away from whether men who identify as women should be allowed to compete in female sports toward prominent intersex athletes like South African runner Caster Semenya. Why? Because so long as they’ve got you on your heels making difficult judgment calls on a slew of complex intersex conditions, they’ve succeeded in drawing your attention away from easy calls on unquestionably male athletes like 2022 NCAA Division I women’s swimming and diving champion Lia Thomas. They shift the focus to intersex to distract from transgender.

Acknowledging the existence of rare difficult cases doesn’t weaken the position or arguments against allowing males in female sports, prisons, restrooms and other female-only spaces. In fact, it’s a much stronger approach because it makes a crucial distinction that the ideologues are at pains to obscure.

Crafting policy to exclude males who identify as women, or “trans women,” from female sports, prisons and other female-only spaces isn’t complicated. Trans women are unambiguously male, so the chances that a doctor incorrectly recorded their sex at birth is zero. Any “transgender policy” designed to protect female spaces need only specify that participants must have been recorded (or “assigned,” in the current jargon) female at birth.

Crafting effective intersex policies is more complicated, but the problem of intersex athletes in female sports is less pressing than that of males in female sports, and there seem to be no current concerns arising from intersex people using female spaces. It should be up to individual organizations to decide which criteria or cut-offs should be used to keep female spaces safe and, in the context of sports, safe and fair. It is imperative, however, that such policies be rooted in properties of bodies, not “identity.” Identity alone is irrelevant to issues of fairness and safety.

Ideologues are wrong to insist that the biology of sex is so complex as to defy all categorization. They’re also wrong to represent the sex binary in an overly simplistic way. The biology of sex isn’t quite as simple as common sense, but common sense will get you a long way in understanding it.

Mr. Wright, an evolutionary biologist, is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

Presume it is the same article.

Very clear. Is there a thread for this?

So what we’re saying is that populations frequently fall broadly into bimodal distributions.

Fucking wash us away with some microvilli.

SCIENCE said:

So what we’re saying is that populations frequently fall broadly into bimodal distributions.

Fucking wash us away with some microvilli.

yes, and biologists will biology

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

So what we’re saying is that populations frequently fall broadly into bimodal distributions.

Fucking wash us away with some microvilli.

yes, and biologists will biology

We mean god damn what next, are we claiming that {the above, therefore people in the crossover region between the bimodes will be treated fairly or decently}¿

Bubblecar said:

Might as well go in here:

Michael V said:

ChrispenEvan said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-biologist-explains-why-sex-is-binary-gender-male-female-intersex-medical-supreme-court-ketanji-brown-jackson-lia-thomas-3d22237e

Link

The transgender movement has left many intelligent Americans confused about sex. Asked to define the word “woman” during her Supreme Court confirmation hearings last year, Ketanji Brown Jackson demurred, saying “I’m not a biologist.” I am a biologist, and I’m here to help.

Are sex categories in humans empirically real, immutable and binary, or are they mere “social constructs”? The question has public-policy implications related to sex-based legal protections and medicine, including whether males should be allowed in female sports, prisons and other spaces that have historically been segregated by sex for reasons of fairness and safety.

Chase Strangio of the American Civil Liberties Union frequently claims that the binary concept of sex is a recent invention “exclusively for the purposes of excluding trans people from legal protections.” Scottish politician Maggie Chapman asserted in December that her rejection of the “binary and immutable” nature of sex was her motivation for pursuing “comprehensive gender recognition for nonbinary people in Scotland.” (“Nonbinary” people are those who “identify” as neither male nor female.)

When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.

Intersex people, whose genitalia appear ambiguous or mixed, don’t undermine the sex binary. Many gender ideologues, however, falsely claim the existence of intersex conditions renders the categories “male” and “female” arbitrary and meaningless. In “Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex” (1998), the historian of science Alice Dreger writes: “Hermaphroditism causes a great deal of confusion, more than one might at first appreciate, because—as we will see again and again—the discovery of a ‘hermaphroditic’ body raises doubts not just about the particular body in question, but about all bodies. The questioned body forces us to ask what exactly it is—if anything—that makes the rest of us unquestionable.”

In reality, the existence of borderline cases no more raises questions about everyone else’s sex than the existence of dawn and dusk casts doubt on day and night. For the vast majority of people, their sex is obvious. And our society isn’t experiencing a sudden dramatic surge in people born with ambiguous genitalia. We are experiencing a surge in people who are unambiguously one sex claiming to “identify” as the opposite sex or as something other than male or female.

Gender ideology seeks to portray sex as so incomprehensibly complex and multivariable that our traditional practice of classifying people as simply either male or female is grossly outdated and should be abandoned for a revolutionary concept of “gender identity.” This entails that males wouldn’t be barred from female sports, women’s prisons or any other space previously segregated according to our supposedly antiquated notions of “biological sex,” so long as they “identify” as female.

But “intersex” and “transgender” mean entirely different things. Intersex people have rare developmental conditions that result in apparent sex ambiguity. Most transgender people aren’t sexually ambiguous at all but merely “identify” as something other than their biological sex.

Once you’re conscious of this distinction, you will begin to notice gender ideologues attempting to steer discussions away from whether men who identify as women should be allowed to compete in female sports toward prominent intersex athletes like South African runner Caster Semenya. Why? Because so long as they’ve got you on your heels making difficult judgment calls on a slew of complex intersex conditions, they’ve succeeded in drawing your attention away from easy calls on unquestionably male athletes like 2022 NCAA Division I women’s swimming and diving champion Lia Thomas. They shift the focus to intersex to distract from transgender.

Acknowledging the existence of rare difficult cases doesn’t weaken the position or arguments against allowing males in female sports, prisons, restrooms and other female-only spaces. In fact, it’s a much stronger approach because it makes a crucial distinction that the ideologues are at pains to obscure.

Crafting policy to exclude males who identify as women, or “trans women,” from female sports, prisons and other female-only spaces isn’t complicated. Trans women are unambiguously male, so the chances that a doctor incorrectly recorded their sex at birth is zero. Any “transgender policy” designed to protect female spaces need only specify that participants must have been recorded (or “assigned,” in the current jargon) female at birth.

Crafting effective intersex policies is more complicated, but the problem of intersex athletes in female sports is less pressing than that of males in female sports, and there seem to be no current concerns arising from intersex people using female spaces. It should be up to individual organizations to decide which criteria or cut-offs should be used to keep female spaces safe and, in the context of sports, safe and fair. It is imperative, however, that such policies be rooted in properties of bodies, not “identity.” Identity alone is irrelevant to issues of fairness and safety.

Ideologues are wrong to insist that the biology of sex is so complex as to defy all categorization. They’re also wrong to represent the sex binary in an overly simplistic way. The biology of sex isn’t quite as simple as common sense, but common sense will get you a long way in understanding it.

Mr. Wright, an evolutionary biologist, is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

Presume it is the same article.

Very clear. Is there a thread for this?

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

So what we’re saying is that populations frequently fall broadly into bimodal distributions.

Fucking wash us away with some microvilli.

yes, and biologists will biology

We mean god damn what next, are we claiming that {the above, therefore people in the crossover region between the bimodes will be treated fairly or decently}¿

Intersex people are being treated unfairly by the transgender movement, as they being upheld as evidence that “there are more than two sexes”, when as the article explains, that is obviously not true.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Might as well go in here:

Michael V said:

Very clear. Is there a thread for this?

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

PermeateFree said:

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

So veganism is woke.

Bubblecar said:

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

yes, and biologists will biology

We mean god damn what next, are we claiming that {the above, therefore people in the crossover region between the bimodes will be treated fairly or decently}¿

Intersex people are being treated unfairly by the transgender movement, as they being upheld as evidence that “there are more than two sexes”, when as the article explains, that is obviously not true.

they being = are

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Might as well go in here:

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

Ah you mean the range of human sexual simorphism lies along a single axis or something like that, well perhaps, but it would be a bit excessive to generalise that except to “only single-axis dimorphism can be called sex so sexual dimorphism necessarily lies along a single axis”.

I wonder if there are any studies on transgender folk using fMRI which might show a difference between them and those whose gender identity matches their biological sex. I suppose though one could argue that such a difference was a mental/psychological distinction which didn’t add any weight to claims that this was a biological difference.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Might as well go in here:

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

They are A-sexual, bi-sexual and non-sexual too. Plus the male and female.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

They are A-sexual, bi-sexual and non-sexual too. Plus the male and female.

So you can have different amounts of the 2 sexes that are defined, just imagine that¡

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Arts said:

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Ponders.

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

They are A-sexual, bi-sexual and non-sexual too. Plus the male and female.

So you can have different amounts of the 2 sexes that are defined, just imagine that¡

Think you need to investigate the means of reproduction with its differences and non-differences in greater detail.

JudgeMental said:

Arts said:

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Ponders.

PermeateFree said:

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

They are A-sexual, bi-sexual and non-sexual too. Plus the male and female.

So you can have different amounts of the 2 sexes that are defined, just imagine that¡

Think you need to investigate the means of reproduction with its differences and non-differences in greater detail.

Who’s offering¿

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

They are A-sexual, bi-sexual and non-sexual too. Plus the male and female.

So you can have different amounts of the 2 sexes that are defined, just imagine that¡

You might also like to ponder the single celled microbes that simply divide to reproduce.

PermeateFree said:

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

They are A-sexual, bi-sexual and non-sexual too. Plus the male and female.

So you can have different amounts of the 2 sexes that are defined, just imagine that¡

You might also like to ponder the single celled microbes that simply divide to reproduce.

Shrug we wouldn’t call them men but what would we know, yes we get that the discussion broadened a bit but we’re focusing on the hominid part, no need to worry about us.

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

SCIENCE said:

So you can have different amounts of the 2 sexes that are defined, just imagine that¡

You might also like to ponder the single celled microbes that simply divide to reproduce.

Shrug we wouldn’t call them men but what would we know, yes we get that the discussion broadened a bit but we’re focusing on the hominid part, no need to worry about us.

I was replying to an earlier post that is obviously incorrect as follows:

PermeateFree said:

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

Arts said:

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

Bubblecar said:

Arts said:

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

Sex if you want to pursue your definition, did not exist at all with early live, it only began with multi-celled microbes. Nevertheless, sex has been around a very long time and via evolution there have been many adaptations beyond a simple male/female concept.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Arts said:

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

Sex if you want to pursue your definition, did not exist at all with early live, it only began with multi-celled microbes. Nevertheless, sex has been around a very long time and via evolution there have been many adaptations beyond a simple male/female concept.

live = life

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Arts said:

Imagine a world where things are on a sliding scale rather than black and white…

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

Sex if you want to pursue your definition, did not exist at all with early live, it only began with multi-celled microbes. Nevertheless, sex has been around a very long time and via evolution there have been many adaptations beyond a simple male/female concept.

Aye, but there are only two sexes, because 1 + 1 = 2.

Obviously, organisms that don’t reproduce sexually are irrelevant.

There can of course be any number of “genders”, because as the scientists point out: sex is real, gender is made up.

“You can have a lot of fun with gender because it’s imaginary”, as Germaine Greer cheekily says (and receives death threats from TRAs in response).

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, but in all that diversity, there are only two sexes.

Sex if you want to pursue your definition, did not exist at all with early live, it only began with multi-celled microbes. Nevertheless, sex has been around a very long time and via evolution there have been many adaptations beyond a simple male/female concept.

Aye, but there are only two sexes, because 1 + 1 = 2.

Obviously, organisms that don’t reproduce sexually are irrelevant.

You need to do a lot more reading.

Bubblecar said:

There can of course be any number of “genders”, because as the scientists point out: sex is real, gender is made up.

“You can have a lot of fun with gender because it’s imaginary”, as Germaine Greer cheekily says (and receives death threats from TRAs in response).

Sorry, I thought you were talking about reproductive life, not a fancy idea.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Sex if you want to pursue your definition, did not exist at all with early live, it only began with multi-celled microbes. Nevertheless, sex has been around a very long time and via evolution there have been many adaptations beyond a simple male/female concept.

Aye, but there are only two sexes, because 1 + 1 = 2.

Obviously, organisms that don’t reproduce sexually are irrelevant.

You need to do a lot more reading.

Why need not read the article posted this evening, written by a biologist, who is adamant that there are two sexes, and only two?

You’re just listing variations that incorporate the two sexes in different ways. It’s all a bit silly.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

There can of course be any number of “genders”, because as the scientists point out: sex is real, gender is made up.

“You can have a lot of fun with gender because it’s imaginary”, as Germaine Greer cheekily says (and receives death threats from TRAs in response).

Sorry, I thought you were talking about reproductive life, not a fancy idea.

If it’s sexually reproductive, reproductive life = two sexes.

PermeateFree said:

SCIENCE said:

PermeateFree said:

You might also like to ponder the single celled microbes that simply divide to reproduce.

Shrug we wouldn’t call them men but what would we know, yes we get that the discussion broadened a bit but we’re focusing on the hominid part, no need to worry about us.

I was replying to an earlier post that is obviously incorrect as follows:

PermeateFree said:

>>When biologists claim that sex is binary, we mean something straightforward: There are only two sexes. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. An organism’s sex is defined by the type of gamete (sperm or ova) it has the function of producing. Males have the function of producing sperm, or small gametes; females, ova, or large ones. Because there is no third gamete type, there are only two sexes. Sex is binary.<<

Some plants only reproduce vegetatively = no sexes
There are plants that mainly reproduce vegetatively, but may also produce bisexual flowers for sexual reproduction too.
Many plants produce separate male and female flowers, even on the same plant.
Most plants produce bisexual flowers of both male and female parts.
Plants that produce spores have no sexual gender.
There are even female animals that can reproduce without a male’s involvement.

Well we agreed with you on that, as some geniuses said, they want to define sex as something relevant only to dimorphic axes, in which case sex is necessarily dimorphic. It seemed reasonable to us to move on, since talking about the sex of Tetrahymena thermophila seemed minimally relevant to humans.

Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, but there are only two sexes, because 1 + 1 = 2.

Obviously, organisms that don’t reproduce sexually are irrelevant.

You need to do a lot more reading.

Why need not read the article posted this evening, written by a biologist, who is adamant that there are two sexes, and only two?

You’re just listing variations that incorporate the two sexes in different ways. It’s all a bit silly.

That is what I am criticising. The sentence to which you refer is profoundly incorrect, regardless of who he is and I have given you a number of examples to prove it.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

There can of course be any number of “genders”, because as the scientists point out: sex is real, gender is made up.

“You can have a lot of fun with gender because it’s imaginary”, as Germaine Greer cheekily says (and receives death threats from TRAs in response).

Sorry, I thought you were talking about reproductive life, not a fancy idea.

So actually we all agree that

• sex in humans is binary
• gender is not sex and is a fancy idea

wait.