well, there you go then…

the break-up is on.

Brexit was a shit idea based on the ignorance of economically illiterate voters, so that somehow justifies Scotland doing the same but worse?

I’d be more enthusiastic with a better Scottish Government at the helm.

I don’t know what their approval rating is these days but it wouldn’t surprise me if the referendum returns another NO.

sibeen said:

Brexit was a shit idea based on the ignorance of economically illiterate voters, so that somehow justifies Scotland doing the same but worse?

the presumption is that an independent Scotland would quickly rejoin the EU, or at least the customs union part of it with full membership to come later.

Latest polls show NO slightly ahead already.

Bubblecar said:

Latest polls show NO slightly ahead already.

The whole of the country haven’t yet experienced the full force of the Tory deprivation that is about to come.
The SNP and Scottish greens need only keep blaming London for all their troubles and it will be a done deal.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Brexit was a shit idea based on the ignorance of economically illiterate voters, so that somehow justifies Scotland doing the same but worse?

the presumption is that an independent Scotland would quickly rejoin the EU, or at least the customs union part of it with full membership to come later.

A. There’s no guarantee that the EU would agree to take them.

B. It is still a bad idea.

Unlike Indy1, there’s a very clear selling point this time around. By leaving the UK, Scotland can rejoin the world’s largest single market. They can also just show a picture of Boris on the posters. The downsides are still there though. Most of Scotland’s trade, right now, is with England, and that’s not going to change overnight even if Yes gets up.

sibeen said:

Brexit was a shit idea based on the ignorance of economically illiterate voters, so that somehow justifies Scotland doing the same but worse?

It could if they then re-joined Europe.

UK is a bit redundant if there is an effective European Union.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Brexit was a shit idea based on the ignorance of economically illiterate voters, so that somehow justifies Scotland doing the same but worse?

the presumption is that an independent Scotland would quickly rejoin the EU, or at least the customs union part of it with full membership to come later.

A. There’s no guarantee that the EU would agree to take them.

B. It is still a bad idea.

A. I reckon the EU would jump at. They would take Scotland or NI in a heartbeat. They would baulk at England or the UK wantying to rejoin in any hurry.

B. Whether it is good or bad doesn’t really matter. Brexit was a bad idea but it happened anyway. Will of the people and all that.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

the presumption is that an independent Scotland would quickly rejoin the EU, or at least the customs union part of it with full membership to come later.

A. There’s no guarantee that the EU would agree to take them.

B. It is still a bad idea.

A. I reckon the EU would jump at. They would take Scotland or NI in a heartbeat. They would baulk at England or the UK wantying to rejoin in any hurry.

B. Whether it is good or bad doesn’t really matter. Brexit was a bad idea but it happened anyway. Will of the people and all that.

Concerning point A any membership would need the unanimous support of existing members. Spain is not keen on the prospect of newly independent states joing because of the situation with regards Catalonia.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

the presumption is that an independent Scotland would quickly rejoin the EU, or at least the customs union part of it with full membership to come later.

A. There’s no guarantee that the EU would agree to take them.

B. It is still a bad idea.

A. I reckon the EU would jump at. They would take Scotland or NI in a heartbeat. They would baulk at England or the UK wantying to rejoin in any hurry.

B. Whether it is good or bad doesn’t really matter. Brexit was a bad idea but it happened anyway. Will of the people and all that.

A. a) For Norn Iron to join the EU, Eire would have to take them into its loving bosom. For all the political blustering about a united Ireland this ain’t going to happen for a long time to come. Too many dickheads on both sides of the sectarian divide to make it a going concern.

A. b) I really cannot see how it is in Scotland’s economic interest to pull this off. Having a hard border with England would be fucking stupid. I suspect that the EU would also have concerns in this area.

B. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what I was saying. people are stupid.

Witty Rejoinder said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

A. There’s no guarantee that the EU would agree to take them.

B. It is still a bad idea.

A. I reckon the EU would jump at. They would take Scotland or NI in a heartbeat. They would baulk at England or the UK wantying to rejoin in any hurry.

B. Whether it is good or bad doesn’t really matter. Brexit was a bad idea but it happened anyway. Will of the people and all that.

Concerning point A any membership would need the unanimous support of existing members. Spain is not keen on the prospect of newly independent states joing because of the situation with regards Catalonia.

I don’t think full membership in a single step is on the cards. But an independent Scotland could readopt/realign with EU standards and get non-tariff trade barriers reduced or abolished. That would be a start. It is about getting a good trade deal with the biggest market in the region. This can be negotiated by the EU Commission and does not need unanimous support from each individual member nation.

This needs an independent Scotland to achieve. Right now pretty much any legislation they try to enact can be overruled by London.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

A. There’s no guarantee that the EU would agree to take them.

B. It is still a bad idea.

A. I reckon the EU would jump at. They would take Scotland or NI in a heartbeat. They would baulk at England or the UK wantying to rejoin in any hurry.

B. Whether it is good or bad doesn’t really matter. Brexit was a bad idea but it happened anyway. Will of the people and all that.

A. b) I really cannot see how it is in Scotland’s economic interest to pull this off. Having a hard border with England would be fucking stupid. I suspect that the EU would also have concerns in this area.

Is Hadrians Wall still there? That’s a hard border, just “build the wall”(Trademark).

Step 1) Install a portcullis.
Step 2) Install a toll booth.
Step 3) ?
Step 4) Profit.

sibeen said:

A. b) I really cannot see how it is in Scotland’s economic interest to pull this off. Having a hard border with England would be fucking stupid. I suspect that the EU would also have concerns in this area.

B. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what I was saying. people are stupid.

Frictionless trade with the EU, versus frictionless trade with England and Wales. (Trade with NI is already frictioned because of the NI Protocol). The EU is a far bigger market, but England and Wales are more immediate.

The best outcome would the treat of Scottish independence forcing the UK back into alignment with the EU and seeking a new trading arrangement with far less friction. Instead of independence they could go for some sort of federal system where the Scottish Parliament has the ultimate say on certain Scottish matters and can’t be overruled by London. Of course other devolved parliaments will want the same, and perhaps some of the regions within Engerland will demand devolved parliaments too.

posted by cousin.

sarahs mum said:

posted by cousin.

During 2020-21 tax revenue generated in Scotland amounted to about £63 billion, including North Sea oil revenue, and it benefitted from about £99 billion in public spending, a difference of £36 billion.

https://www.deliveringforscotland.gov.uk/scotland-in-the-uk/public-spending/

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-scotland-subsidised-the-rest-of-the-uk

It’s a complex picture. Probably right now the North Sea revenues are doing okay but it’s far from clear that all of those revenues would be Scotland’s even in the event of independence.

For that matter it is not clear that the UK would even allow independence in the event of a Yes vote.

dv said:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-scotland-subsidised-the-rest-of-the-uk

It’s a complex picture. Probably right now the North Sea revenues are doing okay but it’s far from clear that all of those revenues would be Scotland’s even in the event of independence.

For that matter it is not clear that the UK would even allow independence in the event of a Yes vote.

Shetland would probably want to leave Scotland.

sibeen said:

dv said:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-scotland-subsidised-the-rest-of-the-uk

It’s a complex picture. Probably right now the North Sea revenues are doing okay but it’s far from clear that all of those revenues would be Scotland’s even in the event of independence.

For that matter it is not clear that the UK would even allow independence in the event of a Yes vote.

Shetland would probably want to leave Scotland.

They should rejoin Norway…

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-scotland-subsidised-the-rest-of-the-uk

It’s a complex picture. Probably right now the North Sea revenues are doing okay but it’s far from clear that all of those revenues would be Scotland’s even in the event of independence.

For that matter it is not clear that the UK would even allow independence in the event of a Yes vote.

Shetland would probably want to leave Scotland.

They should rejoin Norway…

i was thinking that. :)

And Norway needs more north sea oily stuff. :)

Also it might well not get up. “No” is slightly ahead of the polls at present. If I were them I’d wait til it is like 60 – 40.

dv said:

Also it might well not get up. “No” is slightly ahead of the polls at present. If I were them I’d wait til it is like 60 – 40.

So never then.

dv said:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-scotland-subsidised-the-rest-of-the-uk

It’s a complex picture. Probably right now the North Sea revenues are doing okay but it’s far from clear that all of those revenues would be Scotland’s even in the event of independence.

For that matter it is not clear that the UK would even allow independence in the event of a Yes vote.

I’m not sure that I’d be that keen on 50,000 new civil service jobs if I was paying Scottish taxes either.

https://peterabell.scot/2022/07/05/the-pretendy-referendum/

Nicola Sturgeon: Next PM will shift further to the right says First Minister as she launches indyref2 paper

The SNP leader insisted that “only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland”.

She spoke out as she launched the second paper in a series, aimed at making a “refreshed” case for independence.

Her comments came after Boris Johnson – who she described as a “Prime Minister with no democratic endorsement” from Scotland – rejected her call for Holyrood to have the power to hold a second referendum.

With the Tories now hunting for a successor for Mr Johnson, the First Minister said he would be replaced with “another prime minister Scotland hasn’t voted for”.

The new paper published by the Scottish Government, as part of the Building a Better Scotland series, focuses on democracy, Ms Sturgeon said.

Speaking to journalists at Bute House, she said it “exposes the the significant and increasing democratic deficit Scotland suffers as part of the union”.

The First Minister insisted: “Only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland, and so provide a secure foundation from which to overcome challenges and fulfil our potential.”

However, she added: “The change of Tory leader seems virtually certain to be accompanied by a shift even further to the right.

“That means a shift even further away from the mainstream of Scottish opinion and values.”

She raised the prospect the contest to replace Mr Johnson as PM could result in a “race to the bottom on tax, cuts to public services and support for families, more posturing over Brexit hurting businesses and trade” as well as the “abandonment of the fight against climate change”.

She continued: “We may be just a few days into this Tory leadership contest but it is already crystal clear the issues Scotland is focused on – tackling child poverty, supporting NHS recovery, building a fairer economy and making aa just transition to net zero -will be hindered not helped by who ever becomes prime minister in the weeks ahead.”

Voters in Scotland have “repeatedly” returned a majority of MSPs who support independence, Ms Sturgeon said, but added that this was “treated as immaterial” by Westminster.

“You don’t have to be a supporter of independence to know that that is not democracy,” she added.

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

As a result of this she claimed Scotland had “austerity, Brexit, anti immigration measures” imposed when these were not supported by voters north of the border.

Since 2016, Westminster has legislated against the “express wishes of Holyrood” on seven occasions, Nicola Sturgeon said, as she hit out at a system which sees “ultimate power retained by Westminster”.

She described independence as being the “only credible route” for “renewing and securing democracy in Scotland” and “ensuring we get governments we vote for”.

The First Minister, who has set out plans to hold a second referendum in October 2023, added: “Offering Scotland the choice of independence, particularly in the context we are in today is essential.”

She argued that Westminster “must not and will not be allowed” to block the “right” of Scots “to have our say on independence”.

Ms Sturgeon added: “While we hope and plan for a referendum, this should also be clear: if a referendum is blocked by Westminster we will put the choice to the people of Scotland in the general election.

“Either way Scotland will have a choice.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-next-pm-will-shift-further-to-the-right-says-first-minister-as-she-launches-indyref2-paper-3768057

sarahs mum said:

Nicola Sturgeon: Next PM will shift further to the right says First Minister as she launches indyref2 paper

The SNP leader insisted that “only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland”.

She spoke out as she launched the second paper in a series, aimed at making a “refreshed” case for independence.

Her comments came after Boris Johnson – who she described as a “Prime Minister with no democratic endorsement” from Scotland – rejected her call for Holyrood to have the power to hold a second referendum.

With the Tories now hunting for a successor for Mr Johnson, the First Minister said he would be replaced with “another prime minister Scotland hasn’t voted for”.

The new paper published by the Scottish Government, as part of the Building a Better Scotland series, focuses on democracy, Ms Sturgeon said.

Speaking to journalists at Bute House, she said it “exposes the the significant and increasing democratic deficit Scotland suffers as part of the union”.

The First Minister insisted: “Only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland, and so provide a secure foundation from which to overcome challenges and fulfil our potential.”

However, she added: “The change of Tory leader seems virtually certain to be accompanied by a shift even further to the right.

“That means a shift even further away from the mainstream of Scottish opinion and values.”

She raised the prospect the contest to replace Mr Johnson as PM could result in a “race to the bottom on tax, cuts to public services and support for families, more posturing over Brexit hurting businesses and trade” as well as the “abandonment of the fight against climate change”.

She continued: “We may be just a few days into this Tory leadership contest but it is already crystal clear the issues Scotland is focused on – tackling child poverty, supporting NHS recovery, building a fairer economy and making aa just transition to net zero -will be hindered not helped by who ever becomes prime minister in the weeks ahead.”

Voters in Scotland have “repeatedly” returned a majority of MSPs who support independence, Ms Sturgeon said, but added that this was “treated as immaterial” by Westminster.

“You don’t have to be a supporter of independence to know that that is not democracy,” she added.

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

As a result of this she claimed Scotland had “austerity, Brexit, anti immigration measures” imposed when these were not supported by voters north of the border.

Since 2016, Westminster has legislated against the “express wishes of Holyrood” on seven occasions, Nicola Sturgeon said, as she hit out at a system which sees “ultimate power retained by Westminster”.

She described independence as being the “only credible route” for “renewing and securing democracy in Scotland” and “ensuring we get governments we vote for”.

The First Minister, who has set out plans to hold a second referendum in October 2023, added: “Offering Scotland the choice of independence, particularly in the context we are in today is essential.”

She argued that Westminster “must not and will not be allowed” to block the “right” of Scots “to have our say on independence”.

Ms Sturgeon added: “While we hope and plan for a referendum, this should also be clear: if a referendum is blocked by Westminster we will put the choice to the people of Scotland in the general election.

“Either way Scotland will have a choice.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-next-pm-will-shift-further-to-the-right-says-first-minister-as-she-launches-indyref2-paper-3768057

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

God, is she really that stupid?

In the electorate I currently live in, and the one I previously lived in, the Labor Party hasn’t lost in living memory. Fucking LNP thinking they can provide a government for me.

That really is a ludicrous argument.

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

Nicola Sturgeon: Next PM will shift further to the right says First Minister as she launches indyref2 paper

The SNP leader insisted that “only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland”.

She spoke out as she launched the second paper in a series, aimed at making a “refreshed” case for independence.

Her comments came after Boris Johnson – who she described as a “Prime Minister with no democratic endorsement” from Scotland – rejected her call for Holyrood to have the power to hold a second referendum.

With the Tories now hunting for a successor for Mr Johnson, the First Minister said he would be replaced with “another prime minister Scotland hasn’t voted for”.

The new paper published by the Scottish Government, as part of the Building a Better Scotland series, focuses on democracy, Ms Sturgeon said.

Speaking to journalists at Bute House, she said it “exposes the the significant and increasing democratic deficit Scotland suffers as part of the union”.

The First Minister insisted: “Only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland, and so provide a secure foundation from which to overcome challenges and fulfil our potential.”

However, she added: “The change of Tory leader seems virtually certain to be accompanied by a shift even further to the right.

“That means a shift even further away from the mainstream of Scottish opinion and values.”

She raised the prospect the contest to replace Mr Johnson as PM could result in a “race to the bottom on tax, cuts to public services and support for families, more posturing over Brexit hurting businesses and trade” as well as the “abandonment of the fight against climate change”.

She continued: “We may be just a few days into this Tory leadership contest but it is already crystal clear the issues Scotland is focused on – tackling child poverty, supporting NHS recovery, building a fairer economy and making aa just transition to net zero -will be hindered not helped by who ever becomes prime minister in the weeks ahead.”

Voters in Scotland have “repeatedly” returned a majority of MSPs who support independence, Ms Sturgeon said, but added that this was “treated as immaterial” by Westminster.

“You don’t have to be a supporter of independence to know that that is not democracy,” she added.

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

As a result of this she claimed Scotland had “austerity, Brexit, anti immigration measures” imposed when these were not supported by voters north of the border.

Since 2016, Westminster has legislated against the “express wishes of Holyrood” on seven occasions, Nicola Sturgeon said, as she hit out at a system which sees “ultimate power retained by Westminster”.

She described independence as being the “only credible route” for “renewing and securing democracy in Scotland” and “ensuring we get governments we vote for”.

The First Minister, who has set out plans to hold a second referendum in October 2023, added: “Offering Scotland the choice of independence, particularly in the context we are in today is essential.”

She argued that Westminster “must not and will not be allowed” to block the “right” of Scots “to have our say on independence”.

Ms Sturgeon added: “While we hope and plan for a referendum, this should also be clear: if a referendum is blocked by Westminster we will put the choice to the people of Scotland in the general election.

“Either way Scotland will have a choice.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-next-pm-will-shift-further-to-the-right-says-first-minister-as-she-launches-indyref2-paper-3768057

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

God, is she really that stupid?

In the electorate I currently live in, and the one I previously lived in, the Labor Party hasn’t lost in living memory. Fucking LNP thinking they can provide a government for me.

That really is a ludicrous argument.

But you still think you are Australian. You don’t feel like you are the other.

sarahs mum said:

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

Nicola Sturgeon: Next PM will shift further to the right says First Minister as she launches indyref2 paper

The SNP leader insisted that “only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland”.

She spoke out as she launched the second paper in a series, aimed at making a “refreshed” case for independence.

Her comments came after Boris Johnson – who she described as a “Prime Minister with no democratic endorsement” from Scotland – rejected her call for Holyrood to have the power to hold a second referendum.

With the Tories now hunting for a successor for Mr Johnson, the First Minister said he would be replaced with “another prime minister Scotland hasn’t voted for”.

The new paper published by the Scottish Government, as part of the Building a Better Scotland series, focuses on democracy, Ms Sturgeon said.

Speaking to journalists at Bute House, she said it “exposes the the significant and increasing democratic deficit Scotland suffers as part of the union”.

The First Minister insisted: “Only independence can strengthen and embed democracy in Scotland, and so provide a secure foundation from which to overcome challenges and fulfil our potential.”

However, she added: “The change of Tory leader seems virtually certain to be accompanied by a shift even further to the right.

“That means a shift even further away from the mainstream of Scottish opinion and values.”

She raised the prospect the contest to replace Mr Johnson as PM could result in a “race to the bottom on tax, cuts to public services and support for families, more posturing over Brexit hurting businesses and trade” as well as the “abandonment of the fight against climate change”.

She continued: “We may be just a few days into this Tory leadership contest but it is already crystal clear the issues Scotland is focused on – tackling child poverty, supporting NHS recovery, building a fairer economy and making aa just transition to net zero -will be hindered not helped by who ever becomes prime minister in the weeks ahead.”

Voters in Scotland have “repeatedly” returned a majority of MSPs who support independence, Ms Sturgeon said, but added that this was “treated as immaterial” by Westminster.

“You don’t have to be a supporter of independence to know that that is not democracy,” she added.

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

As a result of this she claimed Scotland had “austerity, Brexit, anti immigration measures” imposed when these were not supported by voters north of the border.

Since 2016, Westminster has legislated against the “express wishes of Holyrood” on seven occasions, Nicola Sturgeon said, as she hit out at a system which sees “ultimate power retained by Westminster”.

She described independence as being the “only credible route” for “renewing and securing democracy in Scotland” and “ensuring we get governments we vote for”.

The First Minister, who has set out plans to hold a second referendum in October 2023, added: “Offering Scotland the choice of independence, particularly in the context we are in today is essential.”

She argued that Westminster “must not and will not be allowed” to block the “right” of Scots “to have our say on independence”.

Ms Sturgeon added: “While we hope and plan for a referendum, this should also be clear: if a referendum is blocked by Westminster we will put the choice to the people of Scotland in the general election.

“Either way Scotland will have a choice.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-next-pm-will-shift-further-to-the-right-says-first-minister-as-she-launches-indyref2-paper-3768057

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

God, is she really that stupid?

In the electorate I currently live in, and the one I previously lived in, the Labor Party hasn’t lost in living memory. Fucking LNP thinking they can provide a government for me.

That really is a ludicrous argument.

But you still think you are Australian. You don’t feel like you are the other.

They’ve been effectively the one country for over 300 years.

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

sibeen said:

Scotland’s democratic deficit has “existed over decades”, the First Minister said, adding that while devolution had helped to mitigate the situation, it had not removed it entirely.

Speaking about how “out of sync” Westminster is with Scotland, Ms Sturgeon went on: “Not once in my entire lifetime have the Tories won a majority, or even a plurality of seats in Scotland.

“Yet for around two thirds of my lifetime Scotland has had Tory prime ministers and policies. That is not democracy.”

God, is she really that stupid?

In the electorate I currently live in, and the one I previously lived in, the Labor Party hasn’t lost in living memory. Fucking LNP thinking they can provide a government for me.

That really is a ludicrous argument.

But you still think you are Australian. You don’t feel like you are the other.

They’ve been effectively the one country for over 300 years.

And yet many continue to think of themselves as Scottish.

sarahs mum said:

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

But you still think you are Australian. You don’t feel like you are the other.

They’ve been effectively the one country for over 300 years.

And yet many continue to think of themselves as Scottish.

Sure. I’m a Victorian, and an Australian. I don’t find that hard to handle.

sarahs mum said:

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

But you still think you are Australian. You don’t feel like you are the other.

They’ve been effectively the one country for over 300 years.

And yet many continue to think of themselves as Scottish.

Only because the Scots are too tight to pay tax to England.

The Scotsman
1 hr ·
Discussing the First Minister at an event, Ms Truss said: “I think the best thing to do with Nicola Sturgeon is ignore her”.
She added that the First Minister was “an attention seeker”.

sarahs mum said:

The Scotsman
1 hr ·
Discussing the First Minister at an event, Ms Truss said: “I think the best thing to do with Nicola Sturgeon is ignore her”.
She added that the First Minister was “an attention seeker”.

Good god, bring back Boris.

Scotland has now reached a point where we need to make a decisions. Either we need to just give up and accept that the role of devolution is to translate Westminster rule for Scotland, taking their policies and, oh I don’t know, sticking the word ‘Green’ on the front to make them more acceptable in Scotland.

Or we need to set out a different, long-term vision. We can simply let the rich leave. A large proportion of Scotland’s higher rate tax payers are public employees and I’m not convinced they’re all that great. Bringing through a more innovative younger generation is a good plan anyway.

There really aren’t all that many major businesses left in Scotland whose senior staff are a flight risk. Is our higher rate tax payer really going to hang out in Hexham or Morpeth in his evenings and commute an hour and a half into Edinburgh in the mornings? We need to hold firm to principles and call some bluffs.

We can create a national industrial strategy which is not based on low tax and low regulation but on high quality and effective exploitation of national resources. If we had proper integrated government policy we’d be racing to develop public energy generation off our east coast and be enticing energy-intensive businesses to come here because of inexpensive clean electricity.

We can build manufacturing businesses based on our wide range of natural resources, pioneering in bioplastics, new organic fabrics, wood-based construction materials. We can pursue ‘import substitution’ and produce much more of the food we consume. We can create engineering strategies to rebuild green-based engineering capacity in Scotland. We can do many things.

But we can’t straddle both paths. We have to choose. If we choose Freeports we choose to undermine the rest of the economy. If we choose tax cuts we transfer great wealth from the poor to the already rich. If we choose deregulation our water and air and soil and urban areas will deteriorate, more people will die at work, health will decline, poverty will increase.

So we need to choose. We have let the debate be driven by narrow-focussed cynicism. It’s the ‘well since everyone else is stealing this old woman’s money, we might as well give her a kick and take her TV’. It’s the ‘I don’t like taking away this child’s only toy but I kind of want it so I will’.

If you take the shitshow which is British policy, break it down into its tiny, mental components and say, each one one at a time, ‘here, it is this or it is nothing’, we build a trap from which our children won’t escape never mind us.

It is our failure, the failure of those of us who oppose this awfulness, to provide an alternative, an alternative which is about more than just soundbites and adjectives and personal approval ratings. It is about a vision for Scotland which challenges and takes on Trussonomics or Union Jack Starmer. That is exactly what Common Weal is feverishly working on right now.

I don’t want higher rate tax payers to leave Scotland. I want them to stay because we’ve persuaded them that there is more to life than tax cuts, that the society we are building is good for everyone, that they will live a life which is generous and enriching and fulfilling not despite the fact that they are contributing to the public good but because they are contributing to the public good.

I want them to see that, working together, putting all of us first, we can build a Scotland which is beautiful, not ugly, kind, not selfish, together, not fragmented and broken, innovative, not reductive, peaceful, not at permanent war with itself and everyone else.

It is easy to be angry at the rich. They never seem to accept that they have enough power, enough money, enough of a quality of life to be content with. But we live in a democracy, and it is not (as we have seen) the responsibility of the rich to make it a good democracy and a good society.

It is all of us. It is time for Scotland to stop pointing the finger at others and point it at ourselves. Do we want to continue on this path or not? If not, where are we going to go?

And when are we going to start?

https://commonweal.scot/death-and-taxes/

Date for indyref2 Supreme Court judgement revealed

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23128620.date-indyref2-supreme-court-judgement-revealed/

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It will be announced on Wednesday November 23 at 9.45am.

The Scottish Government took the UK Government to court to discover if they could hold a referendum on indepence without Westminster’s consent.

The Court announced the date on Twitter on Wednesday morning, three weeks after arguments were heard.
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Nicola Sturgeon has previously said that the law would prove the “notion of the UK as a voluntary union of nations is a fiction”.

She then laid out a position which has caused significant debate. She said the SNP would fight the next General Election on the “single question” of Scottish independence if the referendum bill was blocked.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/23/uk/scottish-indepedence-court-ruling-gbr-intl/index.html

Scotland blocked from holding independence vote by UK’s Supreme Court

Britain’s Supreme Court has ruled that Scotland’s government cannot unilaterally hold a second referendum on whether to secede from the United Kingdom, in a blow to independence campaigners that will be welcomed by Westminster’s pro-union establishment.

The court unanimously rejected an attempt by the Scottish National Party (SNP) to force a vote next October, as it did not have the approval of Britain’s parliament.

But the decision is unlikely to stem the heated debate over independence that has loomed over British politics for a decade.

Scotland last held a vote on the issue, with Westminster’s approval, in 2014, when voters rejected the prospect of independence by 55% to 45%.

The pro-independence SNP has nonetheless dominated politics north of the border in the intervening years, at the expense of the traditional, pro-union groups. Successive SNP leaders have pledged to give Scottish voters another chance to vote, particularly since the UK voted to leave the European Union in 2016.

The latest push by SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon involved holding an advisory referendum late next year, similar to the 2016 poll that resulted in Brexit. But the country’s top court agreed that even a non-legally binding vote would require oversight from Westminster, given its practical implications.