i googled the words of this topic and got –
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/garden/vegetable-garden.asp

there are seed available (recommended by maggie beer) from the italian seed companies as well.

the idea of vegetables slowly replacing ornamental plants in the aussie garden is coming. imagine pergolas dripping grapes and shady walks where trellises of peas are available for foraging.

pepe said:

i googled the words of this topic and got –
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/garden/vegetable-garden.asp

there are seed available (recommended by maggie beer) from the italian seed companies as well.

the idea of vegetables slowly replacing ornamental plants in the aussie garden is coming. imagine pergolas dripping grapes and shady walks where trellises of peas are available for foraging.

A thread after my own heart….and I’m of Scottish extraction…

i saw GA on saturday and had to marvel at Earimil. marvel but not envy. i see it as a beautiful museum piece – a leftover from the 18th century fascination with exotic flora. it’s interesting to see clarence and his edible (usable) natives on the same programme.

Nowadays the stupidmarts are calling interstate food and even overseas food ‘fresh’.
i pick my own and most people i know are looking for local produce – in season. the real ‘fresh’.

thus the italian (and others) idea of productive beauty is the way of the future.

pepe said:

i googled the words of this topic and got –
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/garden/vegetable-garden.asp

there are seed available (recommended by maggie beer) from the italian seed companies as well.

the idea of vegetables slowly replacing ornamental plants in the aussie garden is coming. imagine pergolas dripping grapes and shady walks where trellises of peas are available for foraging.

Wonderful! I would love the land to do that with.. sitting under an arbour with grapes offering themselves within reach :D

Perhaps I can knock over the carport.. LOL don’t tempt me…

btw – look up ‘italian vegetable or veggie gardening’ – not the topic title.

Wonderful! I would love the land to do that with.. sitting under an arbour with grapes offering themselves within reach :D Perhaps I can knock over the carport.. LOL don’t tempt me…
—————————
probably more vertical gardening – trellises and covered walkways and wire roofed pergolas and gazebos is the way. because veges are temporary the structure of the garden needs permanent frames to be interesting. temporary cane frames are good too.

pepe said:

Wonderful! I would love the land to do that with.. sitting under an arbour with grapes offering themselves within reach :D Perhaps I can knock over the carport.. LOL don’t tempt me…
—————————
probably more vertical gardening – trellises and covered walkways and wire roofed pergolas and gazebos is the way. because veges are temporary the structure of the garden needs permanent frames to be interesting. temporary cane frames are good too.

grape vines can have a dual purpose too, being deciduous. They can shade your house in summer but let the sun warm your house in winter.

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

Wonderful! I would love the land to do that with.. sitting under an arbour with grapes offering themselves within reach :D Perhaps I can knock over the carport.. LOL don’t tempt me…
—————————
probably more vertical gardening – trellises and covered walkways and wire roofed pergolas and gazebos is the way. because veges are temporary the structure of the garden needs permanent frames to be interesting. temporary cane frames are good too.

grape vines can have a dual purpose too, being deciduous. They can shade your house in summer but let the sun warm your house in winter.

yeah – and you can hide behind the trellises for a snooze in the sun – tripurpose lol.

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

Wonderful! I would love the land to do that with.. sitting under an arbour with grapes offering themselves within reach :D Perhaps I can knock over the carport.. LOL don’t tempt me…
—————————
probably more vertical gardening – trellises and covered walkways and wire roofed pergolas and gazebos is the way. because veges are temporary the structure of the garden needs permanent frames to be interesting. temporary cane frames are good too.

grape vines can have a dual purpose too, being deciduous. They can shade your house in summer but let the sun warm your house in winter.

Grapes were what I was going to grow over my fernery ,instead of a frame and shade cloth. However, the hot summer sun dictated that I do something more immediate to shade the ferns.
I am still thinking about it :)

Happy Potter said:

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

Wonderful! I would love the land to do that with.. sitting under an arbour with grapes offering themselves within reach :D Perhaps I can knock over the carport.. LOL don’t tempt me…
—————————
probably more vertical gardening – trellises and covered walkways and wire roofed pergolas and gazebos is the way. because veges are temporary the structure of the garden needs permanent frames to be interesting. temporary cane frames are good too.

grape vines can have a dual purpose too, being deciduous. They can shade your house in summer but let the sun warm your house in winter.

Grapes were what I was going to grow over my fernery ,instead of a frame and shade cloth. However, the hot summer sun dictated that I do something more immediate to shade the ferns.
I am still thinking about it :)

I was considering grapes for my back pergola, too – but my dad reckons it wouldn’t get cold enough for grapes? Or something to that effect. Something to do with temperature.. Curse my patchy memory! Ended up getting wisteria but now I have no idea what the plans for the new place will be, so perhaps grapes could make a comeback. Come to think of it, dad had grapes on a pergola in the house I grew up in.. That was on the north side, too! But it was heavily sheltered by the neighbour’s house.

Now I’m confused.. as usual :)

I was considering grapes for my back pergola, too – but my dad reckons it wouldn’t get cold enough for grapes? Or something to that effect. Something to do with temperature.. Curse my patchy memory! Ended up getting wisteria but now I have no idea what the plans for the new place will be, so perhaps grapes could make a comeback. Come to think of it, dad had grapes on a pergola in the house I grew up in.. That was on the north side, too! But it was heavily sheltered by the neighbour’s house. Now I’m confused.. as usual :)
————————————————-
yep north or east sides are best if you want grapes and need to protect your house from the sun in summer.
grapes do attract bees which can be a problem for kids.
climbing beans or peas as well as cucumbers are all good climbing italian substitutes for grapes.

I still maintain this statement I made around thirty years ago.. If you are planting something you are planting for the purpose of not eating.. ie ornamental, then it should be a native, preferably local. Many of these may still be eaten.

No sense in wasting water on what you don’t need or are able to use. like I have 1661 sq m inside my fence.. I can waste tonnes of fruit each year if I don’t limit something.. ie: numbers of trees, numbers of fruiting branches, water applications ..

roughbarked said:

I still maintain this statement I made around thirty years ago.. If you are planting something you are planting for the purpose of not eating.. ie ornamental, then it should be a native, preferably local. Many of these may still be eaten. No sense in wasting water on what you don’t need or are able to use. like I have 1661 sq m inside my fence.. I can waste tonnes of fruit each year if I don’t limit something.. ie: numbers of trees, numbers of fruiting branches, water applications ..

1600 sq.m is a good deal of land. the italians probably have an average backyard garden of about 400 sq.m. i love the way you handle your crops but i think the italian way is less self sown and more intense hoeing, double digging and tieing up to trellises – more labour intensive than your method.

you are right about the natives – i have a lemon myrtle lol. the indigenous plants will never produce as much food as the veggies but they surpass the exotic ornamentals by a long way. plus a garden has got to have birds, bees, bugs, lizards etc. to be alive.

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

I still maintain this statement I made around thirty years ago.. If you are planting something you are planting for the purpose of not eating.. ie ornamental, then it should be a native, preferably local. Many of these may still be eaten. No sense in wasting water on what you don’t need or are able to use. like I have 1661 sq m inside my fence.. I can waste tonnes of fruit each year if I don’t limit something.. ie: numbers of trees, numbers of fruiting branches, water applications ..

1600 sq.m is a good deal of land. the italians probably have an average backyard garden of about 400 sq.m. i love the way you handle your crops but i think the italian way is less self sown and more intense hoeing, double digging and tieing up to trellises – more labour intensive than your method.

you are right about the natives – i have a lemon myrtle lol. the indigenous plants will never produce as much food as the veggies but they surpass the exotic ornamentals by a long way. plus a garden has got to have birds, bees, bugs, lizards etc. to be alive.

Another statement I’d stick by in a pinch and that is: THis yard can support upp to 20 people as long as they wish to be ovo-vegetarian. They could be lacto too as I could also have a goat or a cow for milking. The only problems are.. where could I fit the people if the yard was full of intensely cultivated food. They’d have to camp where the cow would be. We’d need an awfully big compost toilet.

Another statement I’d stick by in a pinch and that is: THis yard can support upp to 20 people as long as they wish to be ovo-vegetarian. They could be lacto too as I could also have a goat or a cow for milking. The only problems are.. where could I fit the people if the yard was full of intensely cultivated food. They’d have to camp where the cow would be. We’d need an awfully big compost toilet.
———————-
i can feed two provided we eat what the garden produces.
i store potatoes, onions, pumpkin easily enough and ms p. has preserved lemons, basil and beans very successfully.
but the italians preserve much more – tomatoes in sauce, pizza base etc, olive oil, grapes as wine and vinegar and a host of meat products.
it is practically a full time job this self sufficiency tho’.

pepe said:

Another statement I’d stick by in a pinch and that is: THis yard can support upp to 20 people as long as they wish to be ovo-vegetarian. They could be lacto too as I could also have a goat or a cow for milking. The only problems are.. where could I fit the people if the yard was full of intensely cultivated food. They’d have to camp where the cow would be. We’d need an awfully big compost toilet.
———————-
i can feed two provided we eat what the garden produces.
i store potatoes, onions, pumpkin easily enough and ms p. has preserved lemons, basil and beans very successfully.
but the italians preserve much more – tomatoes in sauce, pizza base etc, olive oil, grapes as wine and vinegar and a host of meat products.
it is practically a full time job this self sufficiency tho’.

Yep mulching a garden is like painting the Harbour Bridge.. think you are finished? No, it is time to start again.
One must realise that the Italian women mainly did all the preserving(along with all the housework etc). Though the men took a part in stuff like salami, they mainly did the growing of the food. The whole family puts in for harvests and plantings.

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

I still maintain this statement I made around thirty years ago.. If you are planting something you are planting for the purpose of not eating.. ie ornamental, then it should be a native, preferably local. Many of these may still be eaten. No sense in wasting water on what you don’t need or are able to use. like I have 1661 sq m inside my fence.. I can waste tonnes of fruit each year if I don’t limit something.. ie: numbers of trees, numbers of fruiting branches, water applications ..

1600 sq.m is a good deal of land. the italians probably have an average backyard garden of about 400 sq.m. i love the way you handle your crops but i think the italian way is less self sown and more intense hoeing, double digging and tieing up to trellises – more labour intensive than your method.

you are right about the natives – i have a lemon myrtle lol. the indigenous plants will never produce as much food as the veggies but they surpass the exotic ornamentals by a long way. plus a garden has got to have birds, bees, bugs, lizards etc. to be alive.

This is my philosophy too :) Found a little legless lizard when I was weeding last night.. always such a cheerful thing for me when I find wildlife in the garden :)

roughbarked said:

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

I still maintain this statement I made around thirty years ago.. If you are planting something you are planting for the purpose of not eating.. ie ornamental, then it should be a native, preferably local. Many of these may still be eaten. No sense in wasting water on what you don’t need or are able to use. like I have 1661 sq m inside my fence.. I can waste tonnes of fruit each year if I don’t limit something.. ie: numbers of trees, numbers of fruiting branches, water applications ..

1600 sq.m is a good deal of land. the italians probably have an average backyard garden of about 400 sq.m. i love the way you handle your crops but i think the italian way is less self sown and more intense hoeing, double digging and tieing up to trellises – more labour intensive than your method.

you are right about the natives – i have a lemon myrtle lol. the indigenous plants will never produce as much food as the veggies but they surpass the exotic ornamentals by a long way. plus a garden has got to have birds, bees, bugs, lizards etc. to be alive.

Another statement I’d stick by in a pinch and that is: THis yard can support upp to 20 people as long as they wish to be ovo-vegetarian. They could be lacto too as I could also have a goat or a cow for milking. The only problems are.. where could I fit the people if the yard was full of intensely cultivated food. They’d have to camp where the cow would be. We’d need an awfully big compost toilet.

You are definitely someone I’d love to live next door to when peak oil hits, RB! :)

Though the men took a part in stuff like salami,
——-
where is collie?

i’ve been to italy – the old men spent the morning hoeing the fields – then they meet their old mates and play dominoes when it gets hot.
not sure what the women do in their kitchens – probably dream of tim curry lol.

pepe said:

Though the men took a part in stuff like salami,
——-
where is collie?

i’ve been to italy – the old men spent the morning hoeing the fields – then they meet their old mates and play dominoes when it gets hot.
not sure what the women do in their kitchens – probably dream of tim curry lol.

The whole country shuts down for siesta, even the petrol stations.

We found out the hard way.

I’d find fifty skinks just walking from the front door to the carport scuttling out of my way. Yes I did startle a legless lizard too yesterday.

bubba louie said:

pepe said:

Though the men took a part in stuff like salami,
——-
where is collie?

i’ve been to italy – the old men spent the morning hoeing the fields – then they meet their old mates and play dominoes when it gets hot.
not sure what the women do in their kitchens – probably dream of tim curry lol.

The whole country shuts down for siesta, even the petrol stations.

Sounds civilized to me…we should do it here…

Dinetta said:

bubba louie said:

pepe said:

Though the men took a part in stuff like salami,
——-
where is collie?

i’ve been to italy – the old men spent the morning hoeing the fields – then they meet their old mates and play dominoes when it gets hot.
not sure what the women do in their kitchens – probably dream of tim curry lol.

The whole country shuts down for siesta, even the petrol stations.

Sounds civilized to me…we should do it here…

They work in the morning, shut down during the heat of the afternoon. The workers go home for lunch and a snooze and then go back to work late. Dinner isn’t eaten until fairly late in the evening.

We’d always be the first in the restaurants and then at about 9.00pm the locals arrive.

Dinetta said:

bubba louie said:

pepe said:

Though the men took a part in stuff like salami,
——-
where is collie?

i’ve been to italy – the old men spent the morning hoeing the fields – then they meet their old mates and play dominoes when it gets hot.
not sure what the women do in their kitchens – probably dream of tim curry lol.

The whole country shuts down for siesta, even the petrol stations.

Sounds civilized to me…we should do it here…

Yep I like that idea too…nothin like a little arvo nap…oh and I’ve been known to dream of tim curry too :o)

I’m well known for an arvo nap

roughbarked said:

I’m well known for an arvo nap

They say “after lunch, rest a while. After dinner, walk a mile”…

> well I live in little Italy where everything looks the same but the food tastes better and Northerners and Southerners manage to coexist.

roughbarked said:

> well I live in little Italy where everything looks the same but the food tastes better and Northerners and Southerners manage to coexist.

the italians have been great immigrants to this country because they managed to bring their food, culture and gardening with them. with our hung parliament we might be picking up bad habits from them as well LOL.

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

> well I live in little Italy where everything looks the same but the food tastes better and Northerners and Southerners manage to coexist.

the italians have been great immigrants to this country because they managed to bring their food, culture and gardening with them. with our hung parliament we might be picking up bad habits from them as well LOL.

fisticuffs between fanta pants and the budgie smuggler? I’d like to see that!

i have 25 tomato seedlings awaiting in the hothouse and have just finished a comprehensive soil prep. i added cowdung, chook manure, molasses, pigeon poo. my compost, bat guano and grape marc to the soil. if i’d had sheep, horse manure or mushroom compost i would have added that too.

i’m putting the stakes in now with a rough stringline and tape measure. i need the rows of stakes to be accurate as a contrast to my normal wild garden look. this is spose to be beautiful as well as productive so sunflowers will be in the mix.

the cueys will have their own teepee of stakes. not sure what the eggplant will be doing.

pepe said:

i have 25 tomato seedlings awaiting in the hothouse and have just finished a comprehensive soil prep. i added cowdung, chook manure, molasses, pigeon poo. my compost, bat guano and grape marc to the soil. if i’d had sheep, horse manure or mushroom compost i would have added that too.

I reckon they will love that mix :)

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

i have 25 tomato seedlings awaiting in the hothouse and have just finished a comprehensive soil prep. i added cowdung, chook manure, molasses, pigeon poo. my compost, bat guano and grape marc to the soil. if i’d had sheep, horse manure or mushroom compost i would have added that too.

I reckon they will love that mix :)

me too.
tino appeared to plant his cueys and water melon in pure compost on last week’s GA.
my soil was so poor that the mustard green manure crop got to 25mm high and stopped growing.

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

i have 25 tomato seedlings awaiting in the hothouse and have just finished a comprehensive soil prep. i added cowdung, chook manure, molasses, pigeon poo. my compost, bat guano and grape marc to the soil. if i’d had sheep, horse manure or mushroom compost i would have added that too.

I reckon they will love that mix :)

Sounds delicious, doesn’t it?

pepe said:

i have 25 tomato seedlings awaiting in the hothouse and have just finished a comprehensive soil prep. i added cowdung, chook manure, molasses, pigeon poo. my compost, bat guano and grape marc to the soil. if i’d had sheep, horse manure or mushroom compost i would have added that too.

i’m putting the stakes in now with a rough stringline and tape measure. i need the rows of stakes to be accurate as a contrast to my normal wild garden look. this is spose to be beautiful as well as productive so sunflowers will be in the mix.

the cueys will have their own teepee of stakes. not sure what the eggplant will be doing.

Well thought out and planned Pepe. I wonder will I ever be like that?

my wife bought me “notes from an italian garden” by joan marble – whilst op shopping. very thoughtful of her and it solved one mystery. italian farms are indeed 5-10 acre paddocks separated by out of control weeds – just as i had suspected looking out the bus window as i toured the north of the country.

- “open garrigue landscape” – a strip of land cut off from the others by “spiny hedgerows crowded with wild pears, prickly hawthorns, medlars, blackberries and wild roses”.

so after thousands of years of cultivation italian gardens/ farms have been beaten by certain weeds.

pepe said:

my wife bought me “notes from an italian garden” by joan marble – whilst op shopping. very thoughtful of her and it solved one mystery. italian farms are indeed 5-10 acre paddocks separated by out of control weeds – just as i had suspected looking out the bus window as i toured the north of the country.

- “open garrigue landscape” – a strip of land cut off from the others by “spiny hedgerows crowded with wild pears, prickly hawthorns, medlars, blackberries and wild roses”.

so after thousands of years of cultivation italian gardens/ farms have been beaten by certain weeds.

they are called hedgerows in the UK and are a source of wild food.

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

my wife bought me “notes from an italian garden” by joan marble – whilst op shopping. very thoughtful of her and it solved one mystery. italian farms are indeed 5-10 acre paddocks separated by out of control weeds – just as i had suspected looking out the bus window as i toured the north of the country.

- “open garrigue landscape” – a strip of land cut off from the others by “spiny hedgerows crowded with wild pears, prickly hawthorns, medlars, blackberries and wild roses”.

so after thousands of years of cultivation italian gardens/ farms have been beaten by certain weeds.

they are called hedgerows in the UK and are a source of wild food.

maybe – but these ones encroach on the paddocks each year – so each year they have to be fought back in line. a lot like me fighting the weeds around my fenceline at present.

reading more of my italian gardening book – the poor italian peasant farmer had no money and there was no water or electricity to his farm (1900 – post 1945-) so he grew and gathered the following to survive

wildfoods
asparagus, mushrooms, chicory, medlars, blackberries
eels, snails

staples without water
grapes and olives
pear and apples, fig, bay laurel plus almonds, walnuts and hazelnuts
zuchinis and tomatoes, green beans, black beans and borlotti beans
artichokes, garlic and peppers
winter potatoes, cabbages, kale, broccoli, spinach and swiss chard and onions

because of our escalating water and power bills this becomes a relevant planting guide

pepe said:

reading more of my italian gardening book – the poor italian peasant farmer had no money and there was no water or electricity to his farm (1900 – post 1945-) so he grew and gathered the following to survive

wildfoods
asparagus, mushrooms, chicory, medlars, blackberries
eels, snails

staples without water
grapes and olives
pear and apples, fig, bay laurel plus almonds, walnuts and hazelnuts
zuchinis and tomatoes, green beans, black beans and borlotti beans
artichokes, garlic and peppers
winter potatoes, cabbages, kale, broccoli, spinach and swiss chard and onions

because of our escalating water and power bills this becomes a relevant planting guide

That’s interesting stuff. From my own garden I have experience with only fig and almonds out of that lot, and they are very productive indeed, with very little water input (just what comes through the greywater system).

pepe said:

reading more of my italian gardening book – the poor italian peasant farmer had no money and there was no water or electricity to his farm (1900 – post 1945-) so he grew and gathered the following to survive

wildfoods
asparagus, mushrooms, chicory, medlars, blackberries
eels, snails

staples without water
grapes and olives
pear and apples, fig, bay laurel plus almonds, walnuts and hazelnuts
zuchinis and tomatoes, green beans, black beans and borlotti beans
artichokes, garlic and peppers
winter potatoes, cabbages, kale, broccoli, spinach and swiss chard and onions

because of our escalating water and power bills this becomes a relevant planting guide

They didn’t eat too bad at all then.

pomolo said:

pepe said:

reading more of my italian gardening book – the poor italian peasant farmer had no money and there was no water or electricity to his farm (1900 – post 1945-) so he grew and gathered the following to survive

wildfoods
asparagus, mushrooms, chicory, medlars, blackberries
eels, snails

staples without water
grapes and olives
pear and apples, fig, bay laurel plus almonds, walnuts and hazelnuts
zuchinis and tomatoes, green beans, black beans and borlotti beans
artichokes, garlic and peppers
winter potatoes, cabbages, kale, broccoli, spinach and swiss chard and onions
because of our escalating water and power bills this becomes a relevant planting guide

They didn’t eat too bad at all then.

they preserved all excess mostly in olive oil rather then vinegar. and they bartered for pigs, sheep and did a bit of work when they could to get shoes for their kids. it wasn’t a lot different in australia in many ways.