Date: 26/06/2022 07:17:05
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1900991
Subject: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 13:00:05
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1901180
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Spiny Norman said:


We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 13:14:06
From: Tamb
ID: 1901182
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

mollwollfumble said:


Spiny Norman said:

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.


When racing we used methyl benzene (toluene) or dimethylbenzene (xylene)

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 13:39:52
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1901193
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

mollwollfumble said:


Spiny Norman said:

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

Perhaps I should write a review of the history of lead paranoia?
Starting with lead carbonate lead(II)-carbonate = 2PbCO3·Pb(OH)2
White lead occurs naturally as a mineral, in which context it is known as hydro-cerussite.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 13:49:13
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1901200
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

mollwollfumble said:


Spiny Norman said:

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

Have you consulted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#Phaseout_and_ban
?

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 13:59:06
From: Michael V
ID: 1901206
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

mollwollfumble said:


Spiny Norman said:

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

The lead is not replaced by anything. Better refining keeps the octane up. New cars have hardened valve seats.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 14:03:25
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1901207
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

The Rev Dodgson said:


mollwollfumble said:

Spiny Norman said:

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

Have you consulted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#Phaseout_and_ban
?

Ta.

> In most industrialized countries, a phaseout of TEL from road vehicle fuels was completed by the early 2000s because of concerns over air and soil lead levels and the accumulative neurotoxicity of lead.

Well that’s just not true. It was phased out because of concerns over the carcinogenic fuel combustion products of petrol and diesel combustion.

There was a long period of time, scores of years, when authorities dithered because they wanted to get rid of the carcinogenic VOCs without getting rid of the lead. Eventually it was realised that it couldn’t be done, so authorities reluctantly removed the lead in order to get rid of the carcinogenic VOCs.

But they didn’t say what metal they used as a replacement for the lead. Do you know? I hope it’s tin, but …

> The use of catalytic converters, mandated in the US for 1975 and later model-year cars to meet tighter emissions regulations, started a gradual phase-out of leaded gasoline

Badly phrased. Catalytic converters are incompatible with lead, the introduction of catalytic converters thus immediately led to the introduction of lead-replacement fuels.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 14:17:37
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1901212
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Michael V said:


mollwollfumble said:

Spiny Norman said:

We’re covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel. There are three main topics we need to cover:
1. We knew it was dangerous from the very beginning, yet used it for an entire century. We started off with ethanol, then decided to poisoned ourselves for a hundred years, then came back to using ethanol.
2. We’re STILL using it today. If you’re near a local airport, you’re likely breathing air with leaded fuel exhaust.
3. A new study indicates we’re dumber because of it. Like, all of us. Especially if you were born between 1951 and 1980 – three decades of incredible amounts of lead in children’s bloodstreams.

link

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

The lead is not replaced by anything. Better refining keeps the octane up. New cars have hardened valve seats.

Not replaced by anything would be good. :-)
Have you got a reference for that?
Please.

The lead was not introduced to increase the octane, it was to keep certain parts of the engine lubricated so they wouldn’t seize up. An engine seizing up while doing 100 km/hr wouldn’t be good for the engine. Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 14:34:04
From: Michael V
ID: 1901217
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

mollwollfumble said:


Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

The infuriating story of leaded fuel is:

WE STILL ARE NOT BEING TOLD WHAT THE LEAD IS BEING REPLACED BY.

So far as I know, what the lead is being replaced with could be more deadly than the lead.

The lead is not replaced by anything. Better refining keeps the octane up. New cars have hardened valve seats.

Not replaced by anything would be good. :-)
Have you got a reference for that?
Please.

The lead was not introduced to increase the octane, it was to keep certain parts of the engine lubricated so they wouldn’t seize up. An engine seizing up while doing 100 km/hr wouldn’t be good for the engine. Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

Lubricating the valve seats was a secondary function of tetraethyl lead. The primary function was anti-knock. It allowed engines to run at higher compression ratios, thereby increasing power.

It is possible (though expensive) to buy highly refined petrol that can run at compression ratios as high as 21:1 in motorcycles. This type of petrol is used by some drag racers, instead of methanol.

No, I don’t have a reference, sorry.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 14:38:59
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1901219
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Michael V said:


mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

The lead is not replaced by anything. Better refining keeps the octane up. New cars have hardened valve seats.

Not replaced by anything would be good. :-)
Have you got a reference for that?
Please.

The lead was not introduced to increase the octane, it was to keep certain parts of the engine lubricated so they wouldn’t seize up. An engine seizing up while doing 100 km/hr wouldn’t be good for the engine. Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

Lubricating the valve seats was a secondary function of tetraethyl lead. The primary function was anti-knock. It allowed engines to run at higher compression ratios, thereby increasing power.

It is possible (though expensive) to buy highly refined petrol that can run at compression ratios as high as 21:1 in motorcycles. This type of petrol is used by some drag racers, instead of methanol.

No, I don’t have a reference, sorry.

Never mind.

I’m sure moll will be posting the references for all his claims any minute now, so we will all have plenty to go and do our own research on.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 14:53:48
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1901225
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

so the article says Americans but do other continents not breathe in fuel exhausts

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 14:58:35
From: dv
ID: 1901227
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 16:36:52
From: fsm
ID: 1901249
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

The lead in petrol was to prevent valve seat recession in older cars that did not have hardened valve seats. Modern cars have hardened valve seats and do not need leaded fuel.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 16:37:45
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1901250
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

fsm said:


The lead in petrol was to prevent valve seat recession in older cars that did not have hardened valve seats. Modern cars have hardened valve seats and do not need leaded fuel.

Yes, but its main function was to improve detonation resistance.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 16:41:39
From: fsm
ID: 1901252
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

What is Valve Seat Recession?

If you drive a pre-1986 vehicle, you have to know about VSR or Valve Seat Recession.
Valve Seat Recession is when the valves from an internal combustion engine embed themselves into the cylinder head.
This is generally due to a lack of lubrication between the valve and the cylinder head.

What causes VSR?
The lead in petrol pre 1987, greatly improved combustion and increased octane levels.
This high-octane fuel enabled cars to run higher compression ratios than cars of today.
In addition, the lead oxides that formed during combustion would settle on the valve seats and act as a cushion, protecting the seats from erosion.
When leaded fuel was phased out, car manufacturers lowered compression ratios and started using hardened valve seats that did not require the lubricating properties of lead.
Consequently, when cars designed to run on leaded fuels were run on unleaded fuels, they run the risk of suffering valve seat recession.

https://penriteoil.com.au/assets/tech_pdfs/Valve%20Seat%20Recession%20April%202015.pdf

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 16:44:38
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1901254
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

According to one youtuber its still in avgas for piston aircraft

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 16:46:10
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1901256
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Try NAC to get it out of your bloodstream

This suggests that antioxidants such as NAC may play an important role in the treatment of lead poisoning, and hence, may serve as excellent scavengers of free radicals and chelator of heavy metals.6 Nov 2015

Vit c helps as well

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 17:02:11
From: roughbarked
ID: 1901259
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

dv said:



It is a sad tale but true.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2022 17:03:25
From: roughbarked
ID: 1901260
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:


According to one youtuber its still in avgas for piston aircraft

Yes. Airports aren’t healthy places.

Reply Quote

Date: 27/06/2022 23:14:16
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1901618
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

I wish to apologise for being totally wrong in some of the things I said above.
Everything I said about the purpose of tetra-ethyl-lead for instance. Totally wrong.

But not everything.

The 1970s US Clean air act covered oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons.
But it did not consider lead in vehicle exhausts to be a sufficiently significant health risk to require emission reductions.
To satisfy the emission requirements of the 1970 clean air act, catalytic converters were added.
Unleaded fuel was initially introduced to stop fouling of catalytic converters by lead, not because leaded fuel was a significant health risk.

I’m learning a lot about how risky lead really is, peeling the research articles off in decades.
For instance, lead is deadly in a large number of different and unrelated ways.

And I have a hypothesis about the origins of anti-lead paranoia.

Reply Quote

Date: 27/06/2022 23:18:34
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1901620
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

mollwollfumble said:


I wish to apologise for being totally wrong in some of the things I said above.
Everything I said about the purpose of tetra-ethyl-lead for instance. Totally wrong.

But not everything.

The 1970s US Clean air act covered oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons.
But it did not consider lead in vehicle exhausts to be a sufficiently significant health risk to require emission reductions.
To satisfy the emission requirements of the 1970 clean air act, catalytic converters were added.
Unleaded fuel was initially introduced to stop fouling of catalytic converters by lead, not because leaded fuel was a significant health risk.

I’m learning a lot about how risky lead really is, peeling the research articles off in decades.
For instance, lead is deadly in a large number of different and unrelated ways.

And I have a hypothesis about the origins of anti-lead paranoia.


As it turns out there’s no safe level of lead

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 08:06:39
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1901690
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:


mollwollfumble said:

I wish to apologise for being totally wrong in some of the things I said above.
Everything I said about the purpose of tetra-ethyl-lead for instance. Totally wrong.

But not everything.

The 1970s US Clean air act covered oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons.
But it did not consider lead in vehicle exhausts to be a sufficiently significant health risk to require emission reductions.
To satisfy the emission requirements of the 1970 clean air act, catalytic converters were added.
Unleaded fuel was initially introduced to stop fouling of catalytic converters by lead, not because leaded fuel was a significant health risk.

I’m learning a lot about how risky lead really is, peeling the research articles off in decades.
For instance, lead is deadly in a large number of different and unrelated ways.

And I have a hypothesis about the origins of anti-lead paranoia.


As it turns out there’s no safe level of lead

Quite right.

The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 20:57:50
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1902018
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Spiny Norman said:


wookiemeister said:

mollwollfumble said:

I wish to apologise for being totally wrong in some of the things I said above.
Everything I said about the purpose of tetra-ethyl-lead for instance. Totally wrong.

But not everything.

The 1970s US Clean air act covered oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons.
But it did not consider lead in vehicle exhausts to be a sufficiently significant health risk to require emission reductions.
To satisfy the emission requirements of the 1970 clean air act, catalytic converters were added.
Unleaded fuel was initially introduced to stop fouling of catalytic converters by lead, not because leaded fuel was a significant health risk.

I’m learning a lot about how risky lead really is, peeling the research articles off in decades.
For instance, lead is deadly in a large number of different and unrelated ways.

And I have a hypothesis about the origins of anti-lead paranoia.


As it turns out there’s no safe level of lead

Quite right.

The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History


Yeah I saw that

I keep meaning to write to someone to find out if we are still using leaded fuel in aviation here

Chucking poison around is one of my pet hates

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:30:30
From: Kingy
ID: 1902042
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:

Chucking poison around is one of my pet hates

But here you are, doing just that, in the various discussion threads.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:32:23
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1902043
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Kingy said:


wookiemeister said:

Chucking poison around is one of my pet hates

But here you are, doing just that, in the various discussion threads.

:-)

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:33:03
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1902044
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Kingy said:


wookiemeister said:

Chucking poison around is one of my pet hates

But here you are, doing just that, in the various discussion threads.


No

I am saying things you don’t agree with.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:34:18
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1902045
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:


Kingy said:

wookiemeister said:

Chucking poison around is one of my pet hates

But here you are, doing just that, in the various discussion threads.


No

I am saying things you don’t agree with.


Its the problem with distorted thinking.

Its a mental disease sweeping across the west

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:35:52
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1902046
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Any way this about lead poisoning

Come to the distant voices thread or flash or light thread

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:38:11
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1902047
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:


Kingy said:

wookiemeister said:

Chucking poison around is one of my pet hates

But here you are, doing just that, in the various discussion threads.


No

I am saying things you don’t agree with.

That’ll get you killed in Putin’s Russia: All praise to liberal democracy.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:47:44
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1902049
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Witty Rejoinder said:


wookiemeister said:

Kingy said:

But here you are, doing just that, in the various discussion threads.


No

I am saying things you don’t agree with.

That’ll get you killed in Putin’s Russia: All praise to liberal democracy.


Come to the other threads, or are you scared ?

Reply Quote

Date: 28/06/2022 21:51:43
From: party_pants
ID: 1902054
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:

I keep meaning to write to someone to find out if we are still using leaded fuel in aviation here

Industry and regulatory inertia in the US.

Avgas has a higher octane rating than automotive fuels. Consequently none of the unleaded fuel options work in aviation fuels. There is talk of the FAA funding the search for a new lead replacement, but the basic fact of the matter is that the industry has to develop a whole new batch of engines just to run on a new fuel. This is completely unpopular with the industry because it means current aircraft become worthless if they still have an old engine, and getting retrofitting with replacement engines is expensive and fraught with legal and technical complications.

Whereas the automotive industry has a relatively fast turn-around that can phase out old technology and bring in something new, general aviation is the exact opposite. The average age of a car on US roads is 10-12 years, the average age of light aircraft (e.g. Cesna, Piper, Beech) is over 30 years, with some examples still flying being much older than that. They tend to keep their resale value and the industry relies upon the second hand market moreso than buying brand new.

Reply Quote

Date: 29/06/2022 09:38:26
From: transition
ID: 1902204
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

>Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

shells are the preferential wear surface, the little soft metal that does come off over time is unlikely to do damage as it is shed from the shells, as in pressurized oil bearings, similar applies of non-pressurized bushes and whatever

Reply Quote

Date: 29/06/2022 10:09:47
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1902217
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

transition said:


>Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

shells are the preferential wear surface, the little soft metal that does come off over time is unlikely to do damage as it is shed from the shells, as in pressurized oil bearings, similar applies of non-pressurized bushes and whatever

The crankshaft/conrods should never touch the other surfaces thanks to the lubricating film of oil. However there is often a small amount of scuffing during the engine starting, before the oil pressure has time to build up.

Reply Quote

Date: 29/06/2022 10:12:31
From: Cymek
ID: 1902221
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

We had lead paint as well

Reply Quote

Date: 29/06/2022 10:20:10
From: transition
ID: 1902227
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Spiny Norman said:


transition said:

>Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

shells are the preferential wear surface, the little soft metal that does come off over time is unlikely to do damage as it is shed from the shells, as in pressurized oil bearings, similar applies of non-pressurized bushes and whatever

The crankshaft/conrods should never touch the other surfaces thanks to the lubricating film of oil. However there is often a small amount of scuffing during the engine starting, before the oil pressure has time to build up.

i’ve chewed out big-end bearings, wrecked a crank, used harder shells and pumped the oil pressure up next time around

Reply Quote

Date: 29/06/2022 10:21:41
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1902229
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

transition said:


Spiny Norman said:

transition said:

>Lead is a soft slippery metal which makes it a good lubricant at high temperatures. That’s why journal bearing alloys have a large lead content.

shells are the preferential wear surface, the little soft metal that does come off over time is unlikely to do damage as it is shed from the shells, as in pressurized oil bearings, similar applies of non-pressurized bushes and whatever

The crankshaft/conrods should never touch the other surfaces thanks to the lubricating film of oil. However there is often a small amount of scuffing during the engine starting, before the oil pressure has time to build up.

i’ve chewed out big-end bearings, wrecked a crank, used harder shells and pumped the oil pressure up next time around

Yeah that’s a problem with the oiling system.

Reply Quote

Date: 29/06/2022 14:19:55
From: transition
ID: 1902305
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Spiny Norman said:


transition said:

Spiny Norman said:

The crankshaft/conrods should never touch the other surfaces thanks to the lubricating film of oil. However there is often a small amount of scuffing during the engine starting, before the oil pressure has time to build up.

i’ve chewed out big-end bearings, wrecked a crank, used harder shells and pumped the oil pressure up next time around

Yeah that’s a problem with the oiling system.

might have been from running a oldish worn stock engine at ~max RPM for extended periods, racing it, got a big end knock clunky clunky

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2022 04:05:52
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1902877
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

wookiemeister said:


mollwollfumble said:

I wish to apologise for being totally wrong in some of the things I said above.
Everything I said about the purpose of tetra-ethyl-lead for instance. Totally wrong.

But not everything.

The 1970s US Clean air act covered oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, unburnt hydrocarbons.
But it did not consider lead in vehicle exhausts to be a sufficiently significant health risk to require emission reductions.
To satisfy the emission requirements of the 1970 clean air act, catalytic converters were added.
Unleaded fuel was initially introduced to stop fouling of catalytic converters by lead, not because leaded fuel was a significant health risk.

I’m learning a lot about how risky lead really is, peeling the research articles off in decades.
For instance, lead is deadly in a large number of different and unrelated ways.

And I have a hypothesis about the origins of anti-lead paranoia.


As it turns out there’s no safe level of lead

You mean like there’s no safe level of nitrogen? Nitrogen causes narcosis you know, even at atmospheric pressure.
——————-

Lead Paranoia

Lead paranoia starts with the use of the phrase “eat lead” in movies from 1955 onwards, and the use of “lead poisoning” as a synonym for being shot in movies from 1933 onwards. There are now nearly 200 movies using the terms “eat lead” or “lead poisoning”, even in comedies including Calamity Jane in 1953 and Hogans Heroes in 1968. Although starting out as a joke, the constant repetition means that some plebs now believe that people being shot die from lead poisoning, and that eating lead has the same symptoms as being shot. There is extra confusion generated by the highly advertised fact that lead poisoning can develop in wildfowl that are shot.

Moving to the real world, in 1898, white lead in paint is stated to be completely non-toxic. There is a disagreement between researchers in 1903-1906. In 1903 it was found that inhaled lead by lead workers was of negligible importance in producing disease, but in 1906 it was judged to be of major importance among lead workers. In the 1906 study, cats were made sick by inhaling and ingesting lead dust. Again there was disagreement, in one part of the experimnent the ingestion of dust by licking fur was found to be a major component of the disease. But this disagrees with the same study showing that direct ingestion is al least 100 times less toxic than inhalation. “One cat was fed 0.8 gr. dry white lead a day for eighteen months without producing any otber symptoms than some loss of weight. Other cats fed similar quantities of white lead daily developed symptoms only when alcohol was administered at the same time.” For an adult human that’s equivalent to eating 12 g of white lead paint per day without producing symptoms. From 1913, the recommended maximum dose is one quarter of that. Symptoms of acute lead poisoning by ingestion, equivalent to 30 g of white lead in one day for an adult human, are vomiting and extreme thirst.

From 1909, “Although lead poisoning of adults in Queensland is unknown, a practitioner will see one of two cases per year of lead poisoning in children”. The “cause has been convincingly demonstrated to be white lead paint on timber”. “The paint degrades in the hot summer, particularly on verandas where children play”. “The first sign of poisoning is a blue line or black dots on the gums.” “The second sign of plumbism is the presence of lead in the urine”. Lead poisoning causes colic, vomiting and loss of appetite, sometimes constipation. This leads to muscle paralysis, particularly of the toes, ankles and wrists, and muscle pains at night. The muscles recover after removal of the poison, over lengths of time ranging from a few weeks to three months. In extreme cases there is paralysis of the diaphragm, which is scarcely noticeable, and finally heart failure”.

(It now occurs to me that if UV stabilisation of paints had been developed earlier, then the degradation to powder would never have occurred and lead white paint would still be considered 100% safe.)

From 1933, “Lead poisoning in infants may follow the prolonged use of lead nipple shields; in Japan poisoning has occurred frequently from the use by the mother of face powder containing lead. In infants and older children the ingestion, over a period of time, of water containing even small amounts of lead may result in intoxication. Recently there was reported an extensive series of cases of lead poisoning following the inhalation of fumes in homes where battery casings were burnt as fuel”.

From 1939, the chemical lead acetate is listed among common causes of poisoning requiring first aid. What is lead acetate used for? In dying textiles, waterproofing and insecticides. It is water soluble, unlike metallic lead which is insoluble in cold and hot water.

From 1943, “lead poisoning occurring in early life usually has a disastrous effect on mental development”

From 1946, “Eleven cases of lead poisoning in the USA were detected among workers manufacturing or mixing tetre-ethyl lead. But there were no cases of lead poisoning or any clinical evidence of lead absorption after 1943”. This improvement is despite increased production, and is attributed to safer work practices.

From 1955, “Lead poisoning is childhood is not a rare disease. Two cases of fatal lead poisoning occurred in Chicago in 1954”. Case 1 seen at ages 2 and 4. At age 2 the symptom was a tendency to fall over. At age 4 vomiting, pain and headache. After death, changes were seen by microscope in the kidneys, liver and bones. In Case 2, death at 1 year 10 months, no history of lead exposure was found. Death was by intercranial pressure and convusions. (PS. ‘No environmental exposure’ rings alarm bells for me, it suggests murder).

Automotive catalytic converters had been developed at least as early as 1936.

From 1973, “Lead, phosphorus, sulfur and several other elements are known to poison catalysts used in reducing carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions from automobile exhausts”.

From 1974, “We have used our equipment for a detailed study of poisoning of a Pt catalyst by lead derived from the fuel”. “Pt-Pd catalyst were exposed to the combustion products of a gasoline containing various concentrations of tetraethyl lead (Motor Mix). The lend concentrations were <0.003, 0.03, and 0.05 g Ph/gal.” With 0.01% lead deposit on the catalyst, hydrocarbon conversion was 60%. By 0.1% lead deposit, that had dropped to 51% conversion and by 1% lead deposit to 42% conversion.

From 1974, “Durability is a critical problem for automotive catalytic converters.” The two main degradation methods are “Poisoning by lead and phosphorus”, and thermal degradation.

This document from 1974 looks good “Potential Dilemma: The Methods of Meeting Automotive Exhaust Emission Standards of the Clean Air Act of 1970” https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/ehp.748165 . “compliance with this legislation requires an understanding of automotive technology, petroleum refining, atmospheric chemistry and physics, economics, and public health.” “In 1952, demonstrated that smog comes from hydrocarbons and nitric oxides. This study first showed clearly that the automobile, was a public health problem.” “The combustion of leaded gasoline in the spark-ignited automotive engine, in particular was identified as the major mobile source of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, lead halide particulates, and other particulate matter.” (Comment by mollwollfumble “Halide?!”, where does halide come from?) “the 1970 Clean Air Act has centered on achieving the exhaust emission standards prescribed by this law for CO, hydrocarbons, and nitrogen oxides. Lead particulate emissions are not regulated.” “The method most often discussed is the use of catalytic mufflers to clean up exhaust emissions and the corresponding removal of the lead antiknock additive since it would poison the catalytic surface of these mufflers.” Other methods …

“The gasoline refining and blending industry is highly competitive, with the reasoning for selection of various blends and additives bound up in science, secrecy, and intuition.” “A Task Force Report on Health Intelligence for Fuel and Fuel Additive Registration (1973) sponsored by the EPA average compositions for 30 commercial gasolines.

Premium 1000 ppm tetraethyllead. Regular 400 ppm tetraethyllead. Extra components below:

Antiknock Action and Combustion in Spark-Ignited Engines:

Knock is defined as preignition of the fuel-air mixture during the compression and ignition strokes of the internal combustion engine. In one theory of the mechanism of knock, the compression of a fuel-air mixture to 8-10 atm in fractions of a second results mainly in the oxidation of the saturated paraffinic portion of gasoline (approximately 65-75% by weight) to peroxides, aldehydes, and alcohols.

If this group of parallel reactions is allowed to continue uninhibited, the oxidation process will reach a rate at which ignition and heat release will occur spontaneously. The explosive potential from peroxides has long been recognized by manufacturers and users of ether, since exposure of ether to air results in the formation of peroxides at an appreciable rate. The resulting detonations of this uncontrolled process, called knock, occur before the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke. Since preignition in the compression stroke does not occur at the maximum compression pressure, the knocking condition results in the inefficiency of power derivation and instability in engine operation. Tetraethyllead (TEL) is added to compete for 02 in the fuel-air mixture during the compression stroke. Since TEL oxidizes to PbO at a rate comparable to the rate of oxidation of fuel paraffins, it can suppress the amount of peroxides, aldehydes, and alcohols formed during the compression stroke. In this way, the concentrations of these paraffin oxidation products do not reach the levels required for the rapid heat release process of preignition. Therefore, TEL allows the fuel-air mixture to be compressed to the volume at which optimal power is derived from the design of the engine.

In another theory of the mechanism of knock, … The scavengers for lead antiknock decomposition products are ethylene dichloride and ethylene dibromide. The reaction of these two compounds with lead oxides produces mixed lead halide particulates in the exhaust emissions.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2022 15:57:42
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1903122
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

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Date: 1/07/2022 16:00:07
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1903124
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Can’t remember now but don’t you mix liquid chlorine with acetone to make chloroform, you mix it up and drain off , one of the two liquids that form?

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Date: 1/07/2022 16:02:13
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1903125
Subject: re: Covering the infuriating story of leaded fuel

Its always made me wonder if we could treat and separate all the nasties from sewerage

Instead of trying to find harmful molecules / elements you just allow the food system to find them.

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