https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520

Climate change: ‘Sand battery’ could solve green energy’s big problem

Finnish researchers have installed the world’s first fully working “sand battery” which can store green power for months at a time.

The developers say this could solve the problem of year-round supply, a major issue for green energy.

Using low-grade sand, the device is charged up with heat made from cheap electricity from solar or wind.

The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive.

—-
At least the material is cheap and abundant.

I was reading about a water battery in Switzerland just the other day.

Take that Putin.

Ta I meant o look this up today after hearing about it on the BBC last night

Plenty of fine-grained sand here. Will swap for quality soil.

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

Bogsnorkler said:

I was reading about a water battery in Switzerland just the other day.

beautiful weather there this time of year, such a great time to visit.

buffy said:

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

Noooo!

I want to swap now while the notion is still considered viable.

buffy said:

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

dv said:

buffy said:

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

Oh dear…you might upset the Tasmanians with that…

buffy said:

dv said:

buffy said:

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

Oh dear…you might upset the Tasmanians with that…

They can wear a woolly hat too if they feel the need.

dv said:

buffy said:

dv said:

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

Oh dear…you might upset the Tasmanians with that…

They can wear a woolly hat too if they feel the need.

This coming from a guy that lives in the tropics and a relatively warm temperate capital city.

poikilotherm said:

dv said:

buffy said:

Oh dear…you might upset the Tasmanians with that…

They can wear a woolly hat too if they feel the need.

This coming from a guy that lives in the tropics and a relatively warm temperate capital city.

s = d

dv said:

buffy said:

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

Yeah, it may have a niche application in an industrial environment, but as storage for electricity this is nearly the last thing you’d want to be using.

sibeen said:

dv said:

buffy said:

I really think we should wait for sibeen’s opinion on this one.

:)

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

Yeah, it may have a niche application in an industrial environment, but as storage for electricity this is nearly the last thing you’d want to be using.

That water battery they are building in the Snowies is a much better bet for Australia.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

It’s probably not relevant to Australian conditions where the cold weather can be adequately dealt with using a jumper and some htfu

Yeah, it may have a niche application in an industrial environment, but as storage for electricity this is nearly the last thing you’d want to be using.

That water battery they are building in the Snowies is a much better bet for Australia.

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Yeah, it may have a niche application in an industrial environment, but as storage for electricity this is nearly the last thing you’d want to be using.

That water battery they are building in the Snowies is a much better bet for Australia.

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Didn’t know of Wivenhoe, but just read:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/wivenhoe-pumped-hydro-big-little-plant-didnt-30606/

Why a coal plant (which requires the burning of coal) would be cheaper to run than a hydro plant, I don’t know.

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Yeah, it may have a niche application in an industrial environment, but as storage for electricity this is nearly the last thing you’d want to be using.

That water battery they are building in the Snowies is a much better bet for Australia.

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Any form of potential energy that can be stored from intermittent sources and released when you need it, water seems the best at the moment.

Peak Warming Man said:

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

That water battery they are building in the Snowies is a much better bet for Australia.

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Any form of potential energy that can be stored from intermittent sources and released when you need it, water seems the best at the moment.

FWIW …

Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

That water battery they are building in the Snowies is a much better bet for Australia.

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Didn’t know of Wivenhoe, but just read:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/wivenhoe-pumped-hydro-big-little-plant-didnt-30606/

Why a coal plant (which requires the burning of coal) would be cheaper to run than a hydro plant, I don’t know.

Wivenhoe requires coal fired generation to pump the water. It’s cheaper to use the coal fired power to go into the grid direct.

Make the water battery closed loop

No animals/ debris gets into the water to damage turbine blades.

Make it law that every tower block being built needs to have gravity battery mechanism ?

Solar / wind , drives a mass up to the top of a tower block during the day ?

All tower blocks become batteries

Spiny Norman said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Tamb said:

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Any form of potential energy that can be stored from intermittent sources and released when you need it, water seems the best at the moment.

FWIW …

Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’

Queensland wanted to build Tully Millstream & the project was stopped by the green lobby.
Good luck with ANUs one or two dozen sites.

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

So. Pumped hydro like Wivenhoe.

Didn’t know of Wivenhoe, but just read:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/wivenhoe-pumped-hydro-big-little-plant-didnt-30606/

Why a coal plant (which requires the burning of coal) would be cheaper to run than a hydro plant, I don’t know.

Wivenhoe requires coal fired generation to pump the water. It’s cheaper to use the coal fired power to go into the grid direct.

OK, well you’d better get yourselves some solar and wind so you don’t have to use coal to pump the water back up.

Tamb said:

Spiny Norman said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Any form of potential energy that can be stored from intermittent sources and released when you need it, water seems the best at the moment.

FWIW …

Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’

Queensland wanted to build Tully Millstream & the project was stopped by the green lobby.
Good luck with ANUs one or two dozen sites.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Didn’t know of Wivenhoe, but just read:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/wivenhoe-pumped-hydro-big-little-plant-didnt-30606/

Why a coal plant (which requires the burning of coal) would be cheaper to run than a hydro plant, I don’t know.

Wivenhoe requires coal fired generation to pump the water. It’s cheaper to use the coal fired power to go into the grid direct.

OK, well you’d better get yourselves some solar and wind so you don’t have to use coal to pump the water back up.

Wind, solar pumped hydro is a good thing unless is commits environmental carnage like the proposed Chalumbin wind farm.

Bogsnorkler said:

Tamb said:

Spiny Norman said:

FWIW …

Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’

Queensland wanted to build Tully Millstream & the project was stopped by the green lobby.
Good luck with ANUs one or two dozen sites.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

Yes. I knew about that at the time. Very carefully selected facts.

Tamb said:

Bogsnorkler said:

Tamb said:

Queensland wanted to build Tully Millstream & the project was stopped by the green lobby.
Good luck with ANUs one or two dozen sites.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

Yes. I knew about that at the time. Very carefully selected facts.

Eh? Since when has the Green lobby had any legislative power in Queensland?

dv said:

Tamb said:

Bogsnorkler said:

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

Yes. I knew about that at the time. Very carefully selected facts.

Eh? Since when has the Green lobby had any legislative power in Queensland?

i think tamb means conservationists objected rather than the political party.

dv said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520

Climate change: ‘Sand battery’ could solve green energy’s big problem

Finnish researchers have installed the world’s first fully working “sand battery” which can store green power for months at a time.

The developers say this could solve the problem of year-round supply, a major issue for green energy.

Using low-grade sand, the device is charged up with heat made from cheap electricity from solar or wind.

The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive.

—-
At least the material is cheap and abundant.

Just a bulk heat storage.
Many apartment buildings and skyscrapers already do that using water or concrete.

Bulk heat storage is a good strategy, particularly in cold climates.

dv said:

Tamb said:

Bogsnorkler said:

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

Yes. I knew about that at the time. Very carefully selected facts.

Eh? Since when has the Green lobby had any legislative power in Queensland?

None but the threat of a Franklin type campaign was enough to spook the govt.

Bogsnorkler said:

dv said:

Tamb said:

Yes. I knew about that at the time. Very carefully selected facts.

Eh? Since when has the Green lobby had any legislative power in Queensland?

i think tamb means conservationists objected rather than the political party.

Yes. Exactly.

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520

Climate change: ‘Sand battery’ could solve green energy’s big problem

Finnish researchers have installed the world’s first fully working “sand battery” which can store green power for months at a time.

The developers say this could solve the problem of year-round supply, a major issue for green energy.

Using low-grade sand, the device is charged up with heat made from cheap electricity from solar or wind.

The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive.

—-
At least the material is cheap and abundant.

Just a bulk heat storage.
Many apartment buildings and skyscrapers already do that using water or concrete.

Bulk heat storage is a good strategy, particularly in cold climates.

We had domestic sized one years ago. It was heated by off peak electricity.

Bogsnorkler said:

dv said:

Tamb said:

Yes. I knew about that at the time. Very carefully selected facts.

Eh? Since when has the Green lobby had any legislative power in Queensland?

i think tamb means conservationists objected rather than the political party.

Right but conservationists object to things all the time in Qld. They object to landclearing and reef dredging… they’ve never been able to stop anything.
I’m sure conservationists did object to the dams, I’m just sure that their objections weren’t the reason the dams weren’t built.

dv said:

Bogsnorkler said:

dv said:

Eh? Since when has the Green lobby had any legislative power in Queensland?

i think tamb means conservationists objected rather than the political party.

Right but conservationists object to things all the time in Qld. They object to landclearing and reef dredging… they’ve never been able to stop anything.
I’m sure conservationists did object to the dams, I’m just sure that their objections weren’t the reason the dams weren’t built.

The govt of the day was on shaky ground after the World Heritage protests.

Well hopefully the conversation has moved a bit in 30 years because there’s a good chance the Greens will hold the BOP in Qld in 2024.

> We had domestic sized one years ago. It was heated by off peak electricity.

Good :-)

I prefer to heat using nuclear waste.
Or waste heat from a nearby coal fired power station.
Or solar thermal.

But that’s just me.

mollwollfumble said:

> We had domestic sized one years ago. It was heated by off peak electricity.

Good :-)

I prefer to heat using nuclear waste.
Or waste heat from a nearby coal fired power station.
Or solar thermal.

But that’s just me.

This was a long time ago when most of those things were not available.

Bogsnorkler said:

Tamb said:

Spiny Norman said:

FWIW …

Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’

Queensland wanted to build Tully Millstream & the project was stopped by the green lobby.
Good luck with ANUs one or two dozen sites.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

Yeah, RMIT did a similar report and identified a 1000 or so sites where pumped hydro was possible and therefore the whole energy issue was a done deal. I may have commented here, many times, that ignoring the political realities is just mind blowingly stupid. The minute a single shovel is spotted and any if the sites the protests would begin.

sibeen said:

Bogsnorkler said:

Tamb said:

Queensland wanted to build Tully Millstream & the project was stopped by the green lobby.
Good luck with ANUs one or two dozen sites.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anger-over-tully-millstream-dam

Yeah, RMIT did a similar report and identified a 1000 or so sites where pumped hydro was possible and therefore the whole energy issue was a done deal. I may have commented here, many times, that ignoring the political realities is just mind blowingly stupid. The minute a single shovel is spotted and any if the sites the protests would begin.

I love asking the (generally “green”) supporters of pumped hydro where they want to build a dam first. The Gordon below Franklin stretch looks good.
Then I dash their spirits by pointing out that whatever water catchment area they build will be a muddy barren wasteland rather than the idyllic fish and bird filled recreational lake.

OK. We can use sand based heat batteries for preheating water for flash-evap desalination, or for pyrolisis of biomass.

party_pants said:

OK. We can use sand based heat batteries for preheating water for flash-evap desalination, or for pyrolisis of biomass.

Why would you use flash-evap desalination when reverse osmosis is available?

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

OK. We can use sand based heat batteries for preheating water for flash-evap desalination, or for pyrolisis of biomass.

Why would you use flash-evap desalination when reverse osmosis is available?

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

OK. We can use sand based heat batteries for preheating water for flash-evap desalination, or for pyrolisis of biomass.

Why would you use flash-evap desalination when reverse osmosis is available?

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Why would you use flash-evap desalination when reverse osmosis is available?

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

To like 500 deg C

dv said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

To like 500 deg C

Sure, but just use the energy to run a reverse osmosis plant. You’d be generating fair more water per kWh.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Why would you use flash-evap desalination when reverse osmosis is available?

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

I’m trying to think of processes that can use the heat.

If there is excess solar and wind it would go to waste if it wasn’t used for something . that seems to be the definition of excess. I am not sure if RO plants can be throttled up and down depending on the availability excess electricity from solar and wind. if they can then fine, use up every last bit of it for RO, if not then store it as heat and find a use for the heat. It is not going to be a very efficient way to use it, but better than nothing.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

I’m trying to think of processes that can use the heat.

To quote the OP:

“The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive”

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

To like 500 deg C

Sure, but just use the energy to run a reverse osmosis plant. You’d be generating fair more water per kWh.

What would be the most efficient way to do that?

Some sort of heat cycle engine?

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

I’m trying to think of processes that can use the heat.

To quote the OP:

“The sand stores the heat at around 500C, which can then warm homes in winter when energy is more expensive”

I am trying to mentally transplant the process to where I live in WA and think what to use it for here. We don’t do municipal home heating systems here, not the right climate.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Why would you use flash-evap desalination when reverse osmosis is available?

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

If you want to convert excess electricity into heat, why not use heat pumps rather than resistance heating?

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

To like 500 deg C

Sure, but just use the energy to run a reverse osmosis plant. You’d be generating fair more water per kWh.

What would be the most efficient way to do that?

Some sort of heat cycle engine?

Sorry, I’m saying that if you want to use if for water distillation it would be far more energy efficient per litre generated to use reverse osmosis. For other uses we’d need to do other things. Pumped hydro would be the best usage, but as we all know finding the sites is the issue.

Maybe hydrogen can come into play – i just don’t know enough about the cycle efficiency to really comment.

I just think that this sand battery is a waste of time in Australia.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

If you want to convert excess electricity into heat, why not use heat pumps rather than resistance heating?

I was thinking about that and the coefficient of performance of a heat pump – 2 to 4, or thereabouts; but I don’t know whether that works at 500°.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Sure, but just use the energy to run a reverse osmosis plant. You’d be generating fair more water per kWh.

What would be the most efficient way to do that?

Some sort of heat cycle engine?

Sorry, I’m saying that if you want to use if for water distillation it would be far more energy efficient per litre generated to use reverse osmosis. For other uses we’d need to do other things. Pumped hydro would be the best usage, but as we all know finding the sites is the issue.

Maybe hydrogen can come into play – i just don’t know enough about the cycle efficiency to really comment.

I just think that this sand battery is a waste of time in Australia.

OK.

I was just assuming that with our sunnier climate it would work better here.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Sure, but just use the energy to run a reverse osmosis plant. You’d be generating fair more water per kWh.

What would be the most efficient way to do that?

Some sort of heat cycle engine?

Sorry, I’m saying that if you want to use if for water distillation it would be far more energy efficient per litre generated to use reverse osmosis. For other uses we’d need to do other things. Pumped hydro would be the best usage, but as we all know finding the sites is the issue.

Maybe hydrogen can come into play – i just don’t know enough about the cycle efficiency to really comment.

I just think that this sand battery is a waste of time in Australia.

Why, what would change if the tech was here?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Because they can be set up to use waste heat. RO needs electricty.

It’s not waste heat, they are using resistive load banks to heat up sand when there is excess solar and wind.

If you want to convert excess electricity into heat, why not use heat pumps rather than resistance heating?

That’s actually a good question – I would suggest the profit margin is rather slim so cost and reliability is important.

This sounds like a great idea. We have a shitload of sand in central Australia, and it’s already solar powered. All we have to do is build a stirling cycle engine out there, and buy an extension cord long enough to plug into it. It’s centrally located so all the important states can reach it. Job done.

Just don’t let the Indian sand mafia know about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq7DGvfnr3U

Link

Sand Dance.

funnily enough we seem to get good value out of solar water heating so

What I thought of when I read the thread title…

furious said:

What I thought of when I read the thread title…

furious said:

What I thought of when I read the thread title…

Dear, dear lord; I hadn’t thought of that. I can nearly guarantee that some chancer will be putting together a group of accountants, salespeople and marketers and be spruiking the product within a year.

sibeen said:

furious said:

What I thought of when I read the thread title…

Dear, dear lord; I hadn’t thought of that. I can nearly guarantee that some chancer will be putting together a group of accountants, salespeople and marketers and be spruiking the product within a year.

pumped silico

Bogsnorkler said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq7DGvfnr3U

Link

Sand Dance.

Brilliant!

AussieDJ said:

Bogsnorkler said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq7DGvfnr3U

Link

Sand Dance.

Brilliant!

What perverted sickos.

sibeen said:

AussieDJ said:

Bogsnorkler said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq7DGvfnr3U

Link

Sand Dance.

Brilliant!

What perverted sickos.

It’s cultural appropriation of the worst kind – they ought to have the book thrown at them.

Neophyte said:

sibeen said:

AussieDJ said:

Brilliant!

What perverted sickos.

It’s cultural appropriation of the worst kind – they ought to have the book thrown at them.

I was thinking they should eat

dv said:

Neophyte said:

sibeen said:

What perverted sickos.

It’s cultural appropriation of the worst kind – they ought to have the book thrown at them.

I was thinking they should eat