Last year the ALP produced a document called “Powering Australia” which was their guide to increasing renewable energy in Australia. In that document there was the claim on Page 4: “It will increase the share of renewables in the National Electricity Market to 82% by 2030.”. This raised my eyebrows and I voiced my concers here in another thread and in chat.

DV then did some digging around and found the document on which the claims were made and posted in chat:

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From: dv
ID: 1906513
Subject: re: Chat July 2022
dv said:

Sibeen I had a read of the modelling documentation for Powering Australia.
It’s called
THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF THE ALP’S POWERING AUSTRALIA PLAN
Summary of modelling results, December 2021
Reputex Energy.

There really isn’t any detailed evidence backing their expected decline in battery pricing. They just kind of lump it in with other assumptions.
I can believe that renewable source pricing will continue to decline, and I can even believe that there can be further economies of scale in electrolysis, but it would be nice to have a bit more “granularity” regarding different kinds of batteries etc.

I also didn’t find any estimate in the expected total amount of storage required to deal with intermittency under an 82% renewables regime. Just some ballpark range would have been fine.

Also I didn’t like how they piled storage on top of sources in this diagram.

Indeed I would have liked a lot more specificity all around.

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and he then followed up with the comment:

If this really is the “most extensive independent modelling ever carried out for an Opposition” then Oppositions have been fucking the dog for decades. Either that or there is much more detail to this modelling than has been published and boy howdy I’d love to see it.

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I agreed with deevs that it you want to put out figures like these and base your planning on you’d want something far more detailed than what was put forward.

Today there was an article on the ABC headlined:

Australia ‘on track’ to generate half its electricity from renewable sources by 2025, report finds

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-12/australias-renewable-energy-transition-on-track-to-2025/101227960

This was a report out of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering (AATSE) which found renewable energy adoption was galloping ahead as wind and solar power became cheaper.

This had me wondering where they were getting these figures from and I found it was based on an Oz government document:

https://www.industry.gov.au/sites/default/files/October%202021/document/australias_emissions_projections_2021_0.pdf

Within the document can be found the table which projects the installed capacity of generation.

And another table showing the projected Renewable share of generation.

So this document, under the previous government, had the National Electricity Market (NEM) being at 51% in 2025 and 69% in 2030.

Looking at the tables you can see that the largest growth in renewables is projected to be in small scale solar jumping from 9 to 27 GW from 2019 to 2025 and larger installations going from 2 to 9 GW in the same timeframe, so an increase of 25 GW of solar in 6 years. The small scale solar then increases another 12 GW to a total of 39 GW by 2030.

I find those figures a bit hard to swallow. Australia already has the largest percentage of installed residential solar and over 20% of houses had solar installed in 2019. To get to a figure of 39 GW you’d need basically 100% of houses to be fitted with solar. Without extreme government intervention that’s not going to be close, the low hanging fruit has already been plucked.

The site https://pv-map.apvi.org.au/analyses gives a breakdown of solar installation in Australia. The graph below show the installation rate by power each month. Solar installation last year was nearly 4 GW but it looks like installations have plummeted this year,

Using the figures provided in the tables I can see where they get their percentages of 50% for 2025 and 69% for 2030 from, I just don’t think it is possible – at least not with current plans.

The ALP’s document at 82% by 2030 is just fanciful, IMHO, but putting this thread here in the hope that I am wrong and I can come back to it in a few years and eat humble pie.

some sweet deal with a regional manufacturing giant might enable transformation

SCIENCE said:

some sweet deal with a regional manufacturing giant might enable transformation

Might be sweet and sour.

Witty Rejoinder said:

SCIENCE said:

some sweet deal with a regional manufacturing giant might enable transformation

Might be sweet and sour.

fair we wouldn’t be surprised if it ended up involving some pork barrels

Da dada daaa da da dada daaa da

Look up in the sky, is a bird ?, is it a plane ?, no it’s Musk Man

As y’all know, installed capacity is not the same as mean output, and typically the ratio of mean output to installed capacity is lower for solar and wind than it is for coal or gas, so that first table is not going to be a good guide to the actual power contribution.

To c&p another of my comments from chat:

I suppose I’m somewhat more bullish than your friend, there are other kinds of batteries than just Li ion and various other methods that face less obv bottlenecks but a) you can’t sleepwalk into it. If you’re going to have huge ambitions then you need to be very clear eyed about the costs and risks, otherwise you’re no better than BoJo and his big bus of bullshit. b) they are only anticipating a required investment of 76 B with a government investment of 26 B over the 8 years. Over the coming 8 years Australia’s accumulated GDP will be about 21 trillion dollars or thereabouts. I just don’t think this ship can be steered with a government investment that makes up 0.12 % of the economic product. It’s going to require major capital works, such that expanding storage becomes a major economic activity. For comparison, over the coming 8 years Australia will spend about 700 billion dollars maintaining and expanding the road network. I realise I’m being a bit handwavy but I just think completely transforming the Australian electrical system will cost the government a bit more than one part in a thousand of GDP.

dv said:

As y’all know, installed capacity is not the same as mean output, and typically the ratio of mean output to installed capacity is lower for solar and wind than it is for coal or gas, so that first table is not going to be a good guide to the actual power contribution.

I did a BOE

I did a BOE using the projected installed capacity, a capacity factor of 35% for the wind, 20% for solar, 30% for other – a bit of a guess and 9000 GWh production of Hydro as that is what Tas Hydro say they produce.

That got me to 48% of NEM for 2025 and 68% for 2030.

The numbers in the below image look wrong.

The increase in wind energy and small scale solar energy from 2019 to 2025 seems ridiculously optimistic.

I would expect at most a 5% increase in wind and small scale solar energy over that period. Unless I’ve missed the announcement of some major project. And a negligible increase in “other”. And no significant increase in “large scale solar”.

So we’d be looking at a 30 GW shortfall in energy in 2025, increasing in 2030.

mollwollfumble said:

The numbers in the below image look wrong.

The increase in wind energy and small scale solar energy from 2019 to 2025 seems ridiculously optimistic.

I would expect at most a 5% increase in wind and small scale solar energy over that period. Unless I’ve missed the announcement of some major project. And a negligible increase in “other”. And no significant increase in “large scale solar”.

So we’d be looking at a 30 GW shortfall in energy in 2025, increasing in 2030.

The installed solar base, small + large, is now at 26 GW.

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

The numbers in the below image look wrong.

The increase in wind energy and small scale solar energy from 2019 to 2025 seems ridiculously optimistic.

I would expect at most a 5% increase in wind and small scale solar energy over that period. Unless I’ve missed the announcement of some major project. And a negligible increase in “other”. And no significant increase in “large scale solar”.

So we’d be looking at a 30 GW shortfall in energy in 2025, increasing in 2030.

The installed solar base, small + large, is now at 26 GW.

Wind capacity is apparently growing at 15% pa and that rate is expected to continue for the next decade, and so if my maths is right, 15% growth pa over 6 years does correspond to a doubling of capacity in that period, so that checks out.

The small-scale solar does appear to be the most eye-popping forecast. I wonder if that is expected to be primarily commercial rather than residential properties (although whether that can still be done is another question).

Have I missed it, but what is the forecast for demand over the period?

sibeen said:

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

The numbers in the below image look wrong.

The increase in wind energy and small scale solar energy from 2019 to 2025 seems ridiculously optimistic.

I would expect at most a 5% increase in wind and small scale solar energy over that period. Unless I’ve missed the announcement of some major project. And a negligible increase in “other”. And no significant increase in “large scale solar”.

So we’d be looking at a 30 GW shortfall in energy in 2025, increasing in 2030.

The installed solar base, small + large, is now at 26 GW.

But how can solar and wind (thanks MartinB) be growing that rapidly?

I haven’t heard of any major new projects in either, and the rooftop solar collectors
around here look no more frequent than they did some four or five years ago.

I owned shares in Australian wind energy but they were bought out by an overseas
company a couple of years ago and I haven’t heard of anything new since.

mollwollfumble said:

sibeen said:

sibeen said:

The installed solar base, small + large, is now at 26 GW.

But how can solar and wind (thanks MartinB) be growing that rapidly?

I haven’t heard of any major new projects in either, and the rooftop solar collectors
around here look no more frequent than they did some four or five years ago.

I owned shares in Australian wind energy but they were bought out by an overseas
company a couple of years ago and I haven’t heard of anything new since.

Let me rephrase that. Are there any new wind energy projects, large scale solar projects or “other” actually under construction right now?
Or are these all proposals?

Having a quick skim of the original document, I note that as fr s the actual ALP policy goes, almost all of the emissions reductions come from their plan to invest in modernising the grid (and making it better for small-scale generation, amongst other things). Pretty much all of their other policy measures are spare change (although actually having an EV policy will make a nice change), and otherwise the emissions reductions are things that are expected to happen anyway.

If done right, a modernised grid would be a very good thing, soo it’s certainly sensible policy.

MartinB said:

Having a quick skim of the original document, I note that as fr s the actual ALP policy goes, almost all of the emissions reductions come from their plan to invest in modernising the grid (and making it better for small-scale generation, amongst other things). Pretty much all of their other policy measures are spare change (although actually having an EV policy will make a nice change), and otherwise the emissions reductions are things that are expected to happen anyway.

If done right, a modernised grid would be a very good thing, soo it’s certainly sensible policy.

Will do. Agree.

Even I know enough to know that the present grid urgently needs modernisation.

mollwollfumble said:

I haven’t heard of any major new projects in either,

Because you don’t follow the news besides BTN.

Probably not “new” but very recent.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/west-australias-biggest-solar-farm-sails-to-full-generation-capacity-40707/

Link

does it say anything about Basslink 2 in this paper?

sarahs mum said:

does it say anything about Basslink 2 in this paper?

No mention, sm. Basslink 2 doesn’t give us any more energy, it just lets the mainland suck at that energy at a faster rate.

MartinB said:

Having a quick skim of the original document, I note that as fr s the actual ALP policy goes, almost all of the emissions reductions come from their plan to invest in modernising the grid (and making it better for small-scale generation, amongst other things). Pretty much all of their other policy measures are spare change (although actually having an EV policy will make a nice change), and otherwise the emissions reductions are things that are expected to happen anyway.

If done right, a modernised grid would be a very good thing, soo it’s certainly sensible policy.

Yes, the 20 billion on that is certainly needed, and it is probably well short of what is required.

BTW, welcome to the forum :)

Just build a massive closed loop pumped hydro system

Don’t flood valleys/ River systems

Solar from across Australia is used to fill the tanks during the day,

Pumped hydro is more reliable and reactive, as the load changes you open or close the valve

A closed loop means no fish, junk smashing into turbine blades.

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

does it say anything about Basslink 2 in this paper?

No mention, sm. Basslink 2 doesn’t give us any more energy, it just lets the mainland suck at that energy at a faster rate.

Aurora has put a lot of wind on King Island from north to south linked to tassie mainland. There is also a lot of wind farming still going on in the north west. So it is a long running plan to cable off the tip of King.

sibeen said:

MartinB said:

Having a quick skim of the original document, I note that as fr s the actual ALP policy goes, almost all of the emissions reductions come from their plan to invest in modernising the grid (and making it better for small-scale generation, amongst other things). Pretty much all of their other policy measures are spare change (although actually having an EV policy will make a nice change), and otherwise the emissions reductions are things that are expected to happen anyway.

If done right, a modernised grid would be a very good thing, soo it’s certainly sensible policy.

Yes, the 20 billion on that is certainly needed, and it is probably well short of what is required.

BTW, welcome to the forum :)

sings welcome back

sarahs mum said:

sibeen said:

sarahs mum said:

does it say anything about Basslink 2 in this paper?

No mention, sm. Basslink 2 doesn’t give us any more energy, it just lets the mainland suck at that energy at a faster rate.

Aurora has put a lot of wind on King Island from north to south linked to tassie mainland. There is also a lot of wind farming still going on in the north west. So it is a long running plan to cable off the tip of King.

Ah, yes, well spotted. I wasn’t taking into account all that lovely wind that you people are installing down there. That certainly does add to the energy but it would be accounted for in the projected wind figures.

Wind is problematic

Spinning blades hit birds and bats

All the stuff needing maintaining is high in the air, difficult to get to

Moving parts mean more maintenance

Tunnel into mountains so storage systems don’t damage local eco systems

If simple hill tribes such as the Fremen of the deep south can store vast amounts of water, we can too.

“Basslink 2 doesn’t give us any more energy, it just lets the mainland suck at that energy at a faster rate.”

TBF, any reduction in transmission losses is effectively a gain in generation, although I think we are only talking order of magnitude of percentage points of the total capacity on the line.

“BTW, welcome to the forum :)”

“sings welcome back”

Surprised myself by remembering my password…

MartinB said:

“BTW, welcome to the forum :)”

“sings welcome back”

Surprised myself by remembering my password…

DV was pining for you the other day so don’t be shocked if he gets excited.

Witty Rejoinder said:

MartinB said:

“BTW, welcome to the forum :)”

“sings welcome back”

Surprised myself by remembering my password…

DV was pining for you the other day so don’t be shocked if he gets excited.

Don’t be surprised if dV didn’t lure him here for this conversation.

You use ONE type of turbine for generating energy

The company being used MUST owned/ controlled by the gov

NO UNIONS. Unions are a conduit for foreign intelligence agencies to cause havoc in critical infrastructure – if you didn’t know that in this time of crisis the unions are trying to take down travel/ energy supplies. People just come to work, take wages and go home – the workplace isn’t a hot bed of union wildcat strikes and obstruction.

With one type of turbine/ generator it allows much easier maintenance, if there’s a shortfall in labour there’s always someone who knows what they are doing.

Keep your parts with the places doing the generating – one single military strike / disaster doesn’t destroy all your parts

sarahs mum said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

MartinB said:

“BTW, welcome to the forum :)”

“sings welcome back”

Surprised myself by remembering my password…

DV was pining for you the other day so don’t be shocked if he gets excited.

Don’t be surprised if dV didn’t lure him here for this conversation.

Ulterior motives? Our DV?

wookiemeister said:

You use ONE type of turbine for generating energy

The company being used MUST owned/ controlled by the gov

NO UNIONS. Unions are a conduit for foreign intelligence agencies to cause havoc in critical infrastructure – if you didn’t know that in this time of crisis the unions are trying to take down travel/ energy supplies. People just come to work, take wages and go home – the workplace isn’t a hot bed of union wildcat strikes and obstruction.

With one type of turbine/ generator it allows much easier maintenance, if there’s a shortfall in labour there’s always someone who knows what they are doing.

Keep your parts with the places doing the generating – one single military strike / disaster doesn’t destroy all your parts

Putin doesn’t like unions either. He knows that Polish unions help bring down the Soviet Union

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

You use ONE type of turbine for generating energy

The company being used MUST owned/ controlled by the gov

NO UNIONS. Unions are a conduit for foreign intelligence agencies to cause havoc in critical infrastructure – if you didn’t know that in this time of crisis the unions are trying to take down travel/ energy supplies. People just come to work, take wages and go home – the workplace isn’t a hot bed of union wildcat strikes and obstruction.

With one type of turbine/ generator it allows much easier maintenance, if there’s a shortfall in labour there’s always someone who knows what they are doing.

Keep your parts with the places doing the generating – one single military strike / disaster doesn’t destroy all your parts

Putin doesn’t like unions either. He knows that Polish unions help bring down the Soviet Union

The KGB infiltrated british unions extensively

“Yes, the 20 billion on that is certainly needed, and it is probably well short of what is required.”

I haven’t (yet) read the actual policy document but in the way f these things presumably they will be leveraging the state govenments and commercial operators to co-invest.

But yes, no doubt the total Commonwealth spend will likely be higher rather than lower from this figure and when I say ‘higher’ I mean ‘double or triple’.

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Putin would have just killed them.

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Putin would have just killed them.

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Putin would have just killed them.

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Putin would have just killed them.

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

Educate yourself

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

Educate yourself

Fuck off you moron. It’s just a shame that you won’t honour us with your presence once Putin’s war machine falls apart. Like you predictions of burning US aircraft carriers you’ll be so embarrassed with your stupidity you slink away until some other crackpot theory enters your head and you re-emerge

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Putin would have just killed them.

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

wtf has this crap to do with this thread?

You could probably use UV lamps to keep the water relatively clear of spores/ bacteria/ virus

Dark, cool tunnels dug deep into mountains are resistant to missile strikes

Control rooms deep in mountains are resistant to missile strikes.

Closed loop systems require a higher tunnel and lower tunnel.

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

Educate yourself

Fuck off you moron. It’s just a shame that you won’t honour us with your presence once Putin’s war machine falls apart. Like you predictions of burning US aircraft carriers you’ll be so embarrassed with your stupidity you slink away until some other crackpot theory enters your head and you re-emerge

Go into the distant voices thread if you want to debate me/ whinge

Bogsnorkler said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

wtf has this crap to do with this thread?

Exactly

Bogsnorkler said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Whichever you slice it don’t provoke the russians

Let the bear sleep

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

wtf has this crap to do with this thread?

Momentary detour.

wookiemeister said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Educate yourself

Fuck off you moron. It’s just a shame that you won’t honour us with your presence once Putin’s war machine falls apart. Like you predictions of burning US aircraft carriers you’ll be so embarrassed with your stupidity you slink away until some other crackpot theory enters your head and you re-emerge

Go into the distant voices thread if you want to debate me/ whinge

You debate someone of comparable intelligence. With you it’s called laughing and pointing.

wookiemeister said:

Bogsnorkler said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Silly Ukrainians choosing democracy and an independent future. The shame!!!

wtf has this crap to do with this thread?

Exactly

But you know nothing about the contents of this thread either which you fill with your crazy bullshit so it’s just more of the same.

Witty Rejoinder said:

wookiemeister said:

Bogsnorkler said:

wtf has this crap to do with this thread?

Exactly

But you know nothing about the contents of this thread either which you fill with your crazy bullshit so it’s just more of the same.

Ive worked around industrial plant and seen the mistakes made

Smart guys that design all this stuff make basic mistakes, the smart guys that manage these places run them into the ground

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Solar

Solid state – no moving parts

Small workforce to maintain it

jftr we don’t think water elevation potential is the optimal storage but solar will be a large part of the solution

wookiemeister said:

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

Any industrial plant needs to be foolproof to stop stupid people destroying it

The very nature of any plant needs to be intrinsically simple and reliable

You need to account of how to replace/ maintain the generators

Lighting – high bay lighting is problematic – if you need a cherry picker to maintain it its problematic

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

I’m spitballing

I put up the pros , you put up the cons

I favour digging wide long tunnels

Its expensive but long lasting

There’s no nuclear waste/ coal ash to deal with as a by-product

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

Maybe if you had pumped hydro you’d design the system so silt would accumulate on particular places

The silt gets sucked out from those places

The tunnel is designed to be relatively self cleaning?

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

I’m stating that the government’s claim of 82% renewable on the National Electricity Market (NEM) by 2030 is wildly optimistic. The previous government’s claim of 50% on the NEM by 2025 was also dubious. We’ll see in a few years how it is panning out.

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

I’m stating that the government’s claim of 82% renewable on the National Electricity Market (NEM) by 2030 is wildly optimistic. The previous government’s claim of 50% on the NEM by 2025 was also dubious. We’ll see in a few years how it is panning out.

Yes, it souynds like it to me too.

On the other hand, I am happy for Australia to become a world leading supplier of the necessary minor metals and rare earths needed for the GR. Someone has to supplant China, Russia and DR Congo as preferred suppliers to the Free world, and it might as well be us.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Yes, but for a practical system.. 50m, 100m, 200m, 1000m, 5m …?

Any ideas on a ballpark figure?

Not a water storage dam for houseold or industrial use, or flood mitigation or anything else. Just a system of an upper and lower pond, solely for pumped hyrdo – maybe only a couple of days or a week stored energy supply.

ah but if you pump enough then you get to adjust all three

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Yes, but for a practical system.. 50m, 100m, 200m, 1000m, 5m …?

Any ideas on a ballpark figure?

Not a water storage dam for houseold or industrial use, or flood mitigation or anything else. Just a system of an upper and lower pond, solely for pumped hyrdo – maybe only a couple of days or a week stored energy supply.

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/

Link

Might be instructive.

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

At least 200m I’d say

I’m thinking something 20km long – look at blue mountains 20km is doable

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Yes, but for a practical system.. 50m, 100m, 200m, 1000m, 5m …?

Any ideas on a ballpark figure?

Not a water storage dam for houseold or industrial use, or flood mitigation or anything else. Just a system of an upper and lower pond, solely for pumped hyrdo – maybe only a couple of days or a week stored energy supply.

I haven’t looked at any of the proposed sites. There’s been many claims that there is hundreds of sites available in Oz for pumped hydro. I strongly suspect that as soon as a prospective site is proposed then people will be chaining themselves to trees and bulldozers and any journalist that happens to wander by. Engineering wise it may be a decent idea, albeit with very long lead times, but politically it will be very hard to push through.

Solar/Wind ——> Hydrogen. Amirite?

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

I’m looking at the hydro calculators

100m3 a second , 200 height difference?

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Yes, but for a practical system.. 50m, 100m, 200m, 1000m, 5m …?

Any ideas on a ballpark figure?

Not a water storage dam for houseold or industrial use, or flood mitigation or anything else. Just a system of an upper and lower pond, solely for pumped hyrdo – maybe only a couple of days or a week stored energy supply.

I haven’t looked at any of the proposed sites. There’s been many claims that there is hundreds of sites available in Oz for pumped hydro. I strongly suspect that as soon as a prospective site is proposed then people will be chaining themselves to trees and bulldozers and any journalist that happens to wander by. Engineering wise it may be a decent idea, albeit with very long lead times, but politically it will be very hard to push through.

Just use tunnels

Witty Rejoinder said:

Solar/Wind ——> Hydrogen. Amirite?

It may be a decent idea, especially up north west, but I just don’t know how financially viable it would be. Of course if oil and coal and gas stay at historically high prices then we may all end up as rich as a weather girl, or even a Norwegian.

Ive never liked flooding places for irrigation / power

Its not eco friendly

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

At least 200m I’d say

I’m thinking something 20km long – look at blue mountains 20km is doable

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

At least 200m I’d say

I’m thinking something 20km long – look at blue mountains 20km is doable

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

Salt water is murder on engineering projects.

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

At least 200m I’d say

I’m thinking something 20km long – look at blue mountains 20km is doable

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

You’ll kill sea life that goes through the turbine

Salt not so good with moving parts

Dissimilar metals plus salt water = a galvanic cell

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

At least 200m I’d say

I’m thinking something 20km long – look at blue mountains 20km is doable

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

Salt water is murder on engineering projects.

The engineers will just have to work harder :p

it would be more expensive in terms of corrosion resistant components and maintenance.

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

At least 200m I’d say

I’m thinking something 20km long – look at blue mountains 20km is doable

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

You’ll kill sea life that goes through the turbine

There will be a filter not to such any in.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

Salt water is murder on engineering projects.

The engineers will just have to work harder :p

it would be more expensive in terms of corrosion resistant components and maintenance.

Its why I’m thinking closed loop fresh water

If you use distilled water it will rip minerals out of concrete

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

I’m thinking about high cliffs near the sea. Large pond built on the upper landward side. Pump seawater and let it flow back out to sea on discharge. Won’t compete with population/agriculture for freshwater.

You’ll kill sea life that goes through the turbine

There will be a filter not to such any in.

You can try

Witty Rejoinder said:

Solar/Wind ——> Hydrogen. Amirite?

we thought the other dudes were saying hydrocarbon

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

You’ll kill sea life that goes through the turbine

There will be a filter not to such any in.

You can try

Plus you’ll have barnacles growing in places you don’t want blockages

Could be problematic

MartinB said:

Wind capacity is apparently growing at 15% pa and that rate is expected to continue for the next decade, and so if my maths is right, 15% growth pa over 6 years does correspond to a doubling of capacity in that period, so that checks out.

The small-scale solar does appear to be the most eye-popping forecast. I wonder if that is expected to be primarily commercial rather than residential properties (although whether that can still be done is another question).

Have I missed it, but what is the forecast for demand over the period?

For me at least, the concern is not about source production. Solar and wind are pretty cheap and there’s plenty of expansion potential. Also not too concerned about ability to build HV lines. My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

There will be a filter not to such any in.

You can try

Plus you’ll have barnacles growing in places you don’t want blockages

Could be problematic

There are at least 7 operating desal plants around the world that have solved this problem already.

dv said:

MartinB said:

Wind capacity is apparently growing at 15% pa and that rate is expected to continue for the next decade, and so if my maths is right, 15% growth pa over 6 years does correspond to a doubling of capacity in that period, so that checks out.

The small-scale solar does appear to be the most eye-popping forecast. I wonder if that is expected to be primarily commercial rather than residential properties (although whether that can still be done is another question).

Have I missed it, but what is the forecast for demand over the period?

For me at least, the concern is not about source production. Solar and wind are pretty cheap and there’s plenty of expansion potential. Also not too concerned about ability to build HV lines. My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.

Which is why say pump hydro is a viable option

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Fuck me dead now he’s praising Thatcher

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

You can try

Plus you’ll have barnacles growing in places you don’t want blockages

Could be problematic

There are at least 7 operating desal plants around the world that have solved this problem already.

A combined desal/power plant had just opened in Jeddah when I started work there in 1981. They did have some unexpected corrosion problems, but I believe they came up with workable solutions.

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

How do you feel about solar thermal storage?

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Fuck me dead now he’s praising Thatcher

Credit where credit is due

On the otherhand she was probably the most destructive britain had , stupid stupid decisions

dv said:

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

How do you feel about solar thermal storage?

luke warm.

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Fuck me dead now he’s praising Thatcher

Well she is the mother of the Global Warming movement.

dv said:

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

How do you feel about solar thermal storage?

Molten substances ?

Dunno. It sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Containment issues ?

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Oh sorry I didn’t realise this was the quitters’ convention.

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

Margaret Thatcher had to sack her way through the KGB agents in british industry.

Fuck me dead now he’s praising Thatcher

Well she is the mother of the Global Warming movement.

The conservatives were the ones wanting to get into the EEC , its why Ted heath got britain into it.

Tony benn ( labour) never wanted britain in it

wookiemeister said:

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Fuck me dead now he’s praising Thatcher

Well she is the mother of the Global Warming movement.

The conservatives were the ones wanting to get into the EEC , its why Ted heath got britain into it.

Tony benn ( labour) never wanted britain in it

Benn’s mother, Margaret Benn (née Holmes, 1897–1991), was a theologian, feminist and the founder President of the Congregational Federation. She was a member of the League of the Church Militant, which was the predecessor of the Movement for the Ordination of Women; in 1925, she was rebuked by Randall Davidson, the Archbishop of Canterbury, for advocating the ordination of women. His mother’s theology had a profound influence on Benn, as she taught him that the stories in the Bible were mostly about the struggle between the prophets and the kings and that he ought in his life to support the prophets over the kings, who had power, as the prophets taught righteousness.

dv said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

What sort of minimum height difference are we talking about for practical pumped hydro?

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Oh sorry I didn’t realise this was the quitters’ convention.

I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.

‘My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.”

Without going woo, I think I would like to see a little more attention given to pumped storage solutions in suitable situations rather than batteries as everything.

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

The stored energy is just mass x height x gravity.

Currently we can adjust two of those parameters.

Oh sorry I didn’t realise this was the quitters’ convention.

I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.

Yeah, you really have to store quite a shitload for it to make a difference.

A small motor cycle battery – 12 volt 7 amp hour stores the same amount of energy as 250 kg at 100 metres height.

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Oh sorry I didn’t realise this was the quitters’ convention.

I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.

Yeah, you really have to store quite a shitload for it to make a difference.

A small motor cycle battery – 12 volt 7 amp hour stores the same amount of energy as 250 kg at 100 metres height.

Chemical storage seems to have some benefits.

“I haven’t (yet) read the actual policy document but in the way f these things presumably they will be leveraging the state govenments and commercial operators to co-invest.”

Even worse, the 20 billion is to establish a fund for low-cost finance for the private sector to rebuild the grid…

MartinB said:

‘My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.”

Without going woo, I think I would like to see a little more attention given to pumped storage solutions in suitable situations rather than batteries as everything.

Sure

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Oh sorry I didn’t realise this was the quitters’ convention.

I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.

Yeah, you really have to store quite a shitload for it to make a difference.

A small motor cycle battery – 12 volt 7 amp hour stores the same amount of energy as 250 kg at 100 metres height.

Yes, for anything other than water it’s a joke.

“I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.”

Check my maths, but you might be out by a factor of 10. 1000kg x 100m x 10 m/s/s = 1MJ = 0.28 kWh

MartinB said:

“I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.”

Check my maths, but you might be out by a factor of 10. 1000kg x 100m x 10 m/s/s = 1MJ = 0.28 kWh

Yeah.

And by 10, I mean 10000

MartinB said:

And by 10, I mean 10000

Are you sure? I would have thought 0.28 kWh could run 280 W for an hour.

MartinB said:

And by 10, I mean 10000

?

Nah, I reckon you were right the first time.

sibeen said:

MartinB said:

And by 10, I mean 10000

?

Nah, I reckon you were right the first time.

We shouldn’t be talking in bastard units like hours, it makes things tricky. s, ks, Ms etc

Sorry, I was right first time

dv said:

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

I did the math a while ago – 1000L lifted to a height of 100m will store enough energy to run a 30W light bulb for 1 hour. Use those base numbers to work out any capacity you require.

Yeah, you really have to store quite a shitload for it to make a difference.

A small motor cycle battery – 12 volt 7 amp hour stores the same amount of energy as 250 kg at 100 metres height.

Yes, for anything other than water it’s a joke.

so you mean you could not only fill the batteries but also elevate them and then you’d have the best of both storages

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Yeah, you really have to store quite a shitload for it to make a difference.

A small motor cycle battery – 12 volt 7 amp hour stores the same amount of energy as 250 kg at 100 metres height.

Yes, for anything other than water it’s a joke.

so you mean you could not only fill the batteries but also elevate them and then you’d have the best of both storages

No

dv said:

sibeen said:

MartinB said:

And by 10, I mean 10000

?

Nah, I reckon you were right the first time.

We shouldn’t be talking in bastard units like hours, it makes things tricky. s, ks, Ms etc

no derived units either, go base units only or ban

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

You can skip contributions by a certain poster and you can read it a lot faster.

buffy said:

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

You can skip contributions by a certain poster and you can read it a lot faster.

I value sibeen’s thoughts on this.

buffy said:

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

You can skip contributions by a certain poster and you can read it a lot faster.

waves furiously

party_pants said:

buffy said:

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

You can skip contributions by a certain poster and you can read it a lot faster.

I value sibeen’s thoughts on this.

:)

(There are actually 2 that you can skip…)

buffy said:

party_pants said:

buffy said:

You can skip contributions by a certain poster and you can read it a lot faster.

I value sibeen’s thoughts on this.

:)

(There are actually 2 that you can skip…)

And some unfortunate timing made my remark look pointed. It was not aimed as WR…

I shall retire from the thread. But it is interesting, even if I don’t understand it. My electrical engineer father’s knowledge did not come to me by osmosis.

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

How big a battery?

Big as a dam?

dv said:

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

Pumped hydro is the best way

Its controllable

Easily stored

Non toxic

Fast start up times when needed

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

How do you feel about solar thermal storage?

I’m not sure. A company that was trying to get molten salt storage off the ground tried to wrangle me into assisting them with their “transition phase’. I thought they were chancers who were trying to scam some free engineering time whilst they also scammed investors. It has soured me on the idea a little.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

How big a battery?

Big as a dam?

The equivalent of the big battery at Hornsdale for a start.

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

Advantage over molten salt is portability, scalability… maybe safety?

Lead acid… much lower charging efficiency, like 30% of your power is straight wasted. Much slower charging, like for like. About an order of magnitude less power per kg. Messy, needs water top ups.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

How big a battery?

Big as a dam?

The size of a Bunnings seems doable. Large covered shed with racks and racks of batteries inside.

Modular and scalable would be nice.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Difficult to build.

Very long lead times.

Environmentally dubious.

How do you feel about solar thermal storage?

I’m not sure. A company that was trying to get molten salt storage off the ground tried to wrangle me into assisting them with their “transition phase’. I thought they were chancers who were trying to scam some free engineering time whilst they also scammed investors. It has soured me on the idea a little.

No doubt the renewables transitional epoch will be a golden time for Arthur Daley types

Kingy said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

How big a battery?

Big as a dam?

The equivalent of the big battery at Hornsdale for a start.

The battery at Geelong is 450 MWh and can discharge at 300 MW.

The battery at Hornsdale is 194MWh and can discharge at 50 MW.

The Geelong battery cost $160M.

dv said:

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

Advantage over molten salt is portability, scalability… maybe safety?

Lead acid… much lower charging efficiency, like 30% of your power is straight wasted. Much slower charging, like for like. About an order of magnitude less power per kg. Messy, needs water top ups.

Except for the topping up part, I agree with all the rest. Plus they don’t do deep discharge particularly well and have limited number of cycles compared to Li.

sibeen said:

dv said:

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

Advantage over molten salt is portability, scalability… maybe safety?

Lead acid… much lower charging efficiency, like 30% of your power is straight wasted. Much slower charging, like for like. About an order of magnitude less power per kg. Messy, needs water top ups.

Except for the topping up part, I agree with all the rest. Plus they don’t do deep discharge particularly well and have limited number of cycles compared to Li.

Don’t need to top up Lead acid batteries any more?

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

Advantage over molten salt is portability, scalability… maybe safety?

Lead acid… much lower charging efficiency, like 30% of your power is straight wasted. Much slower charging, like for like. About an order of magnitude less power per kg. Messy, needs water top ups.

Except for the topping up part, I agree with all the rest. Plus they don’t do deep discharge particularly well and have limited number of cycles compared to Li.

Don’t need to top up Lead acid batteries any more?

It’s not the 20th century, bro.

SLA – Sealed Lead Acid has been the go to since about 1990.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Except for the topping up part, I agree with all the rest. Plus they don’t do deep discharge particularly well and have limited number of cycles compared to Li.

Don’t need to top up Lead acid batteries any more?

It’s not the 20th century, bro.

SLA – Sealed Lead Acid has been the go to since about 1990.

Okay cheers

seriously just build 5 times the necessary capacity and then use the excess to synthesise hydrocarbon

SCIENCE said:

seriously just build 5 times the necessary capacity and then use the excess to synthesise hydrocarbon

Okay I will

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

seriously just build 5 times the necessary capacity and then use the excess to synthesise hydrocarbon

Okay I will

well were yous part of the crowd complaining that nothing was quite as good for travel alone transport units as hydrocarbon fuels, andor for quick and easy start and stop generation, well boom this solves both

sibeen said:

dv said:

Kingy said:

What would be the problem with building a gigantic lead acid battery instead of lithium?

Lead and acid would be cheaper?

Or molten salt. Why the preference for Lithium anyway?

Advantage over molten salt is portability, scalability… maybe safety?

Lead acid… much lower charging efficiency, like 30% of your power is straight wasted. Much slower charging, like for like. About an order of magnitude less power per kg. Messy, needs water top ups.

Except for the topping up part, I agree with all the rest. Plus they don’t do deep discharge particularly well and have limited number of cycles compared to Li.

Ok, Ta.

The lead acid is nearly half the price, so you could build a L/A one around 80% larger for the same price as a Li. I guess it would be the 30% power loss that would be the main kibosh.

dv said:

For me at least, the concern is not about source production. Solar and wind are pretty cheap and there’s plenty of expansion potential. Also not too concerned about ability to build HV lines. My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.

It is probably a sign of my ignorance but I am less concerned about this problem. It’s a big one, but I reckon it’s in the doable camp and the kind of problem that will increasingly open up to the growing incentives that will fix it. Better batteries, modest use of situation-appropriate thermal, mechanical and hydrogen storage, and increasing demand management to smooth the curve. I don’t think we’ll be held to ransom by lithium.

Plus, there’s always zinc.

I was sure that algal biofuels were going to be the future but I guess I’ve been wrong before.

Kingy said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

Advantage over molten salt is portability, scalability… maybe safety?

Lead acid… much lower charging efficiency, like 30% of your power is straight wasted. Much slower charging, like for like. About an order of magnitude less power per kg. Messy, needs water top ups.

Except for the topping up part, I agree with all the rest. Plus they don’t do deep discharge particularly well and have limited number of cycles compared to Li.

Ok, Ta.

The lead acid is nearly half the price, so you could build a L/A one around 80% larger for the same price as a Li. I guess it would be the 30% power loss that would be the main kibosh.

Nah, it’s the number of deep discharge cycles. They can only do about 50 before their performance degrades. There are some that have been released recently that claim to be able to do a few thousand cycles but they will only discharge down to about 80% energy capacity for this to apply.

MartinB said:

dv said:

For me at least, the concern is not about source production. Solar and wind are pretty cheap and there’s plenty of expansion potential. Also not too concerned about ability to build HV lines. My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.

It is probably a sign of my ignorance but I am less concerned about this problem. It’s a big one, but I reckon it’s in the doable camp and the kind of problem that will increasingly open up to the growing incentives that will fix it. Better batteries, modest use of situation-appropriate thermal, mechanical and hydrogen storage, and increasing demand management to smooth the curve. I don’t think we’ll be held to ransom by lithium.

Plus, there’s always zinc.

Australia is quite well-endowed with lithium. If only we had the guts to impose a “domestic quota before export” type regime on the miners and refiners of such.

MartinB said:

I was sure that algal biofuels were going to be the future but I guess I’ve been wrong before.

you want a transition that minimises the impacts and complexities to the bulk of people who use or the end user is you like then

guess what, oversupplying energy into synthetic hydrocarbon solves that problem too

MartinB said:

I was sure that algal biofuels were going to be the future but I guess I’ve been wrong before.

I still hold out hope for it. If only I had a billion dollar grant.

party_pants said:

MartinB said:

dv said:

For me at least, the concern is not about source production. Solar and wind are pretty cheap and there’s plenty of expansion potential. Also not too concerned about ability to build HV lines. My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.

It is probably a sign of my ignorance but I am less concerned about this problem. It’s a big one, but I reckon it’s in the doable camp and the kind of problem that will increasingly open up to the growing incentives that will fix it. Better batteries, modest use of situation-appropriate thermal, mechanical and hydrogen storage, and increasing demand management to smooth the curve. I don’t think we’ll be held to ransom by lithium.

Plus, there’s always zinc.

Australia is quite well-endowed with lithium. If only we had the guts to impose a “domestic quota before export” type regime on the miners and refiners of such.

We’d have to start up a battery manufacturing plant. Surely, we as a country, have given up such tawdry endeavours like manufacturing.

imagine if it was expensive to build local battery production facilities, and it was similarly expensive to build hydrocarbon synthesis facilities, and nah it’d never work

MartinB said:

dv said:

For me at least, the concern is not about source production. Solar and wind are pretty cheap and there’s plenty of expansion potential. Also not too concerned about ability to build HV lines. My concern is about storage. How much storage will be required at 82% renewables? What kind of batteries will be used? Is there enough material? Are prices of the material likely to be stable over the next 8 years, given that every country in the world is scrambling for lithium? These are crucial questions not addressed by these documents.

It is probably a sign of my ignorance but I am less concerned about this problem. It’s a big one, but I reckon it’s in the doable camp and the kind of problem that will increasingly open up to the growing incentives that will fix it. Better batteries, modest use of situation-appropriate thermal, mechanical and hydrogen storage, and increasing demand management to smooth the curve. I don’t think we’ll be held to ransom by lithium.

Plus, there’s always zinc.

I’m a Vanadium stooge now

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

MartinB said:

It is probably a sign of my ignorance but I am less concerned about this problem. It’s a big one, but I reckon it’s in the doable camp and the kind of problem that will increasingly open up to the growing incentives that will fix it. Better batteries, modest use of situation-appropriate thermal, mechanical and hydrogen storage, and increasing demand management to smooth the curve. I don’t think we’ll be held to ransom by lithium.

Plus, there’s always zinc.

Australia is quite well-endowed with lithium. If only we had the guts to impose a “domestic quota before export” type regime on the miners and refiners of such.

We’d have to start up a battery manufacturing plant. Surely, we as a country, have given up such tawdry endeavours like manufacturing.

We could sell the idea as the new bold future, not as a return to the past.

Geelong, Adelaide, Newcastle might be goods spots to build manufacturing businesses.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

MartinB said:

It is probably a sign of my ignorance but I am less concerned about this problem. It’s a big one, but I reckon it’s in the doable camp and the kind of problem that will increasingly open up to the growing incentives that will fix it. Better batteries, modest use of situation-appropriate thermal, mechanical and hydrogen storage, and increasing demand management to smooth the curve. I don’t think we’ll be held to ransom by lithium.

Plus, there’s always zinc.

Australia is quite well-endowed with lithium. If only we had the guts to impose a “domestic quota before export” type regime on the miners and refiners of such.

We’d have to start up a battery manufacturing plant. Surely, we as a country, have given up such tawdry endeavours like manufacturing.

We have(I think) the worlds largest Lithium mine just 90km or so East from where I sit, and about 70km North is a Lithium processing plant under construction. Should I knock a battery shop in my back shed?

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Australia is quite well-endowed with lithium. If only we had the guts to impose a “domestic quota before export” type regime on the miners and refiners of such.

We’d have to start up a battery manufacturing plant. Surely, we as a country, have given up such tawdry endeavours like manufacturing.

We could sell the idea as the new bold future, not as a return to the past.

Geelong, Adelaide, Newcastle might be goods spots to build manufacturing businesses.

Is Adelaide big enough?

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

We’d have to start up a battery manufacturing plant. Surely, we as a country, have given up such tawdry endeavours like manufacturing.

We could sell the idea as the new bold future, not as a return to the past.

Geelong, Adelaide, Newcastle might be goods spots to build manufacturing businesses.

Is Adelaide big enough?

we can make it bigger.

buffy said:

party_pants said:

Looks like I am late to the thread.

Have any firm conclusions been reached yet? (Just to save me reading through the whole lot).

You can skip contributions by a certain poster and you can read it a lot faster.

Yes, that certainly helps to keep up with the discussion.

oh was there an institutionalised pattern of intimidating or belittling or vexatious behaviour was there

Kingy said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Australia is quite well-endowed with lithium. If only we had the guts to impose a “domestic quota before export” type regime on the miners and refiners of such.

We’d have to start up a battery manufacturing plant. Surely, we as a country, have given up such tawdry endeavours like manufacturing.

We have(I think) the worlds largest Lithium mine just 90km or so East from where I sit, and about 70km North is a Lithium processing plant under construction. Should I knock a battery shop in my back shed?

SCIENCE said:

oh was there an institutionalised pattern of intimidating or belittling or vexatious behaviour was there

See this is why buffy skips your posts

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

oh was there an institutionalised pattern of intimidating or belittling or vexatious behaviour was there

See this is why buffy skips your posts

we apologise for using a pronoun “we” or other cases such as its accusative “us” which makes us appear to be more multitudinous and therefore intimidating, despite the possibility that we really are a multiple of persons

Chatting to another friend who is much deeper integrated into this field than I am and he told me that AEMO has just released their 2022 Integrated System Plan which he states is a document that has issues, but doesn’t suck.

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/major-publications/integrated-system-plan-isp/2022-integrated-system-plan-isp

So this will be my reading for this afternoon.

sibeen said:

Chatting to another friend who is much deeper integrated into this field than I am and he told me that AEMO has just released their 2022 Integrated System Plan which he states is a document that has issues, but doesn’t suck.

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/major-publications/integrated-system-plan-isp/2022-integrated-system-plan-isp

So this will be my reading for this afternoon.

Looks to be quite a bit of reading to be done.

sibeen said:

Chatting to another friend who is much deeper integrated into this field than I am and he told me that AEMO has just released their 2022 Integrated System Plan which he states is a document that has issues, but doesn’t suck.

https://aemo.com.au/en/energy-systems/major-publications/integrated-system-plan-isp/2022-integrated-system-plan-isp

So this will be my reading for this afternoon.

Having issues but not sucking is probably about as good as you can expect from that sort of document.

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

sibeen said:

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

I guess a factor would be how much getting connected to the grid would cost.

ChrispenEvan said:

sibeen said:

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

I guess a factor would be how much getting connected to the grid would cost.

Yes, and in this particular case that may have been a factor as they are out in the sticks. But none of that is mentioned and it’s all unicorns and rainbows and puppy dog tails.

sibeen said:

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

I’m expecting a quote from the local plumber any day soon for replacing our over 20 years old Quantum heat pump hot water system with a new one. I was thinking Rheem, I’ve asked the plumber to advise what he thinks. As we have to have the old system removed, and that means taking down the frame and stuff on the roof that the gas pumped over in those old systems (very, very efficiently I have to say), and replacing some sheets of iron on the roof, and the hot water thingy is around $4,000-$5,000, I’m expecting it to be relatively expensive just for that part of things.

buffy said:

sibeen said:

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

I’m expecting a quote from the local plumber any day soon for replacing our over 20 years old Quantum heat pump hot water system with a new one. I was thinking Rheem, I’ve asked the plumber to advise what he thinks. As we have to have the old system removed, and that means taking down the frame and stuff on the roof that the gas pumped over in those old systems (very, very efficiently I have to say), and replacing some sheets of iron on the roof, and the hot water thingy is around $4,000-$5,000, I’m expecting it to be relatively expensive just for that part of things.

thought about instantaneous?

ChrispenEvan said:

buffy said:

sibeen said:

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

I’m expecting a quote from the local plumber any day soon for replacing our over 20 years old Quantum heat pump hot water system with a new one. I was thinking Rheem, I’ve asked the plumber to advise what he thinks. As we have to have the old system removed, and that means taking down the frame and stuff on the roof that the gas pumped over in those old systems (very, very efficiently I have to say), and replacing some sheets of iron on the roof, and the hot water thingy is around $4,000-$5,000, I’m expecting it to be relatively expensive just for that part of things.

thought about instantaneous?

We’ve had a heat pump for 40 odd years, first at Hawkesdale and then here. Very happy with heat pump. And we are bottled gas out here. I had an instantaneous one at the Casterton house.

sibeen said:

Mr Robinson said the solar PV and battery system meet their needs year-round, except for a few days each year during the depths of a dark winter when the backup generator kicks in.

“I can’t imagine paying to turn the lights on anymore,” he said.

“It used to be something to dread every three months when the power bill would come.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/off-grid-living-in-victoria-as-energy-prices-soar/101234914

Christ, the whole article rabbits on like this without once mentioning how much it would have cost to go completely off-grid. In this case, the 11.4-kilowatt solar system on the roof, the 78KW hours of battery backup, the hot water heat pump on a 350-litre tank and the generator – has to be a low ball figure of $50k. The return on investment for the average punter just doesn’t make a skerrick of sense.

Until the entire system goes dark

Australia takes in 200,000 extra every year, all needing power plus existing population growth.

Baseload is being shut down

Half the country went dark recently

The world has and is still moving into a period of instability.

Adding a battery system and not needing gas and having a heat pump hot water system is about creating a bubble around you when our stupid gov and it’s public service can’t get its shit together and actively work to make things worse

I urge you to take steps now to insulate yourself against what might be coming next

SCIENCE said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

SCIENCE said:

some sweet deal with a regional manufacturing giant might enable transformation

Might be sweet and sour.

fair we wouldn’t be surprised if it ended up involving some pork barrels

ah fuck knew it would never work

oh wait this must be because they’ve polluted their air so bad there that there’s never any cloud or rain

wait

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-07-15/home-battery-sales-are-rising-with-volatile-power-prices/101226252

Link

I bought a washer/ dryer all in one machine Saturday ( due to ongoing complaints)

The way its being used is the machine can be started remotely when things get sunny and the solar system starts generating more than a few KWs. Whilst the machine churns away the battery system gets charged as well. As I only get 6 cents per kWh it’s better to try and use all my generated energy rather than sell it. I normally set the dishwasher running in the morning too. Whereas most people are trying to use night time power because it marginally cheaper I try and use all of my daytime power. When I get back I should have clean dishes and clothing for “free”.

The battery system makes sure a blackout in the system doesn’t mean food on the fridge/ freezer goes off.

wookiemeister said:

I bought a washer/ dryer all in one machine Saturday ( due to ongoing complaints)

The way its being used is the machine can be started remotely when things get sunny and the solar system starts generating more than a few KWs. Whilst the machine churns away the battery system gets charged as well. As I only get 6 cents per kWh it’s better to try and use all my generated energy rather than sell it. I normally set the dishwasher running in the morning too. Whereas most people are trying to use night time power because it marginally cheaper I try and use all of my daytime power. When I get back I should have clean dishes and clothing for “free”.

The battery system makes sure a blackout in the system doesn’t mean food on the fridge/ freezer goes off.

What battery system do you have, and have you tested it in a blackout?

Kingy said:

wookiemeister said:

I bought a washer/ dryer all in one machine Saturday ( due to ongoing complaints)

The way its being used is the machine can be started remotely when things get sunny and the solar system starts generating more than a few KWs. Whilst the machine churns away the battery system gets charged as well. As I only get 6 cents per kWh it’s better to try and use all my generated energy rather than sell it. I normally set the dishwasher running in the morning too. Whereas most people are trying to use night time power because it marginally cheaper I try and use all of my daytime power. When I get back I should have clean dishes and clothing for “free”.

The battery system makes sure a blackout in the system doesn’t mean food on the fridge/ freezer goes off.

What battery system do you have, and have you tested it in a blackout?

13.8kwh battery , big enough for my needs

2 solar systems

1 × 1kw solar array with inverter

1 × 6 kW inverter with 8 kW array ( you can only dump 5kw on the grid with a single phase connection ( this is connected to the battery)

Yes it

wookiemeister said:

Kingy said:

wookiemeister said:

I bought a washer/ dryer all in one machine Saturday ( due to ongoing complaints)

The way its being used is the machine can be started remotely when things get sunny and the solar system starts generating more than a few KWs. Whilst the machine churns away the battery system gets charged as well. As I only get 6 cents per kWh it’s better to try and use all my generated energy rather than sell it. I normally set the dishwasher running in the morning too. Whereas most people are trying to use night time power because it marginally cheaper I try and use all of my daytime power. When I get back I should have clean dishes and clothing for “free”.

The battery system makes sure a blackout in the system doesn’t mean food on the fridge/ freezer goes off.

What battery system do you have, and have you tested it in a blackout?

13.8kwh battery , big enough for my needs

2 solar systems

1 × 1kw solar array with inverter

1 × 6 kW inverter with 8 kW array ( you can only dump 5kw on the grid with a single phase connection ( this is connected to the battery)

Yes it

So this system can work in an islanding mode and has a grid disconnect circuit breaker/ contactor?

Ive been seriously thinking of getting another 13.8 kWh battery system

I’m more likely to get another heat pump hot water system ( I won’t buy Australian made again – the build quality is bad). There’s a German one that has 220l with a 500w motor that should be big enough for my needs.

From that point on the house will be close to carbon neutral.

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

Kingy said:

What battery system do you have, and have you tested it in a blackout?

13.8kwh battery , big enough for my needs

2 solar systems

1 × 1kw solar array with inverter

1 × 6 kW inverter with 8 kW array ( you can only dump 5kw on the grid with a single phase connection ( this is connected to the battery)

Yes it

So this system can work in an islanding mode and has a grid disconnect circuit breaker/ contactor?

Yes. It disconnects from the grid and power/ light circuits are left functioning

The disconnect in the event of black out is instantaneous – the only reason I even knew there was a black out ( two weeks after the batteries were connected) was when I went to investigate the heavy rain. We were the only house in the street with lights/ tv/ fans everything still running.

wookiemeister said:

The disconnect in the event of black out is instantaneous – the only reason I even knew there was a black out ( two weeks after the batteries were connected) was when I went to investigate the heavy rain. We were the only house in the street with lights/ tv/ fans everything still running.

What model is it?

The heat reflective paint went on the roof 3 weeks ago (?)

They left the unused paint and I might use it to swap some on a north facing wall that gets roasting hot.

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

The disconnect in the event of black out is instantaneous – the only reason I even knew there was a black out ( two weeks after the batteries were connected) was when I went to investigate the heavy rain. We were the only house in the street with lights/ tv/ fans everything still running.

What model is it?

Frosnius

wookiemeister said:

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

The disconnect in the event of black out is instantaneous – the only reason I even knew there was a black out ( two weeks after the batteries were connected) was when I went to investigate the heavy rain. We were the only house in the street with lights/ tv/ fans everything still running.

What model is it?

Frosnius

That’s a brand. What is the inverter model?

Fronius

sibeen said:

wookiemeister said:

sibeen said:

What model is it?

Frosnius

That’s a brand. What is the inverter model?

Dunno , just trying to find. I’m not at home

wookiemeister said:

Ive been seriously thinking of getting another 13.8 kWh battery system

I’m more likely to get another heat pump hot water system ( I won’t buy Australian made again – the build quality is bad). There’s a German one that has 220l with a 500w motor that should be big enough for my needs.

From that point on the house will be close to carbon neutral.

Our first heat pump system (I think it was Dux, before Quantum and Dux separated) was installed in the late 1980s at our previous house. I don’t know how long it lasted. We moved to this house over 20 years ago and installed a Quantum system with the black roof thing for heating the gas. It still works, but the roof thing is growing lichen and can’t be cleaned now, so we are looking at a replacement. I think over 20 years is a pretty good build quality. It mostly deals with tank water, but we do put our potable bore water through it sometimes.

My bad

Just checked the invoice

9kwp array

Fronius ge24 5.0 plus inverter

buffy said:

wookiemeister said:

Ive been seriously thinking of getting another 13.8 kWh battery system

I’m more likely to get another heat pump hot water system ( I won’t buy Australian made again – the build quality is bad). There’s a German one that has 220l with a 500w motor that should be big enough for my needs.

From that point on the house will be close to carbon neutral.

Our first heat pump system (I think it was Dux, before Quantum and Dux separated) was installed in the late 1980s at our previous house. I don’t know how long it lasted. We moved to this house over 20 years ago and installed a Quantum system with the black roof thing for heating the gas. It still works, but the roof thing is growing lichen and can’t be cleaned now, so we are looking at a replacement. I think over 20 years is a pretty good build quality. It mostly deals with tank water, but we do put our potable bore water through it sometimes.

I bought a dux with Kevin’s money

Within a few years there was a fire in the control box

I might give the German gear a go

Hang on

Fronius primo GEN 24 5kw inverter ( i thought it was 6kw)

I got them to put in a small distribution board with a main switch. I just put in a 10A combo to supply a series of sockets around the shed

wookiemeister said:

buffy said:

wookiemeister said:

Ive been seriously thinking of getting another 13.8 kWh battery system

I’m more likely to get another heat pump hot water system ( I won’t buy Australian made again – the build quality is bad). There’s a German one that has 220l with a 500w motor that should be big enough for my needs.

From that point on the house will be close to carbon neutral.

Our first heat pump system (I think it was Dux, before Quantum and Dux separated) was installed in the late 1980s at our previous house. I don’t know how long it lasted. We moved to this house over 20 years ago and installed a Quantum system with the black roof thing for heating the gas. It still works, but the roof thing is growing lichen and can’t be cleaned now, so we are looking at a replacement. I think over 20 years is a pretty good build quality. It mostly deals with tank water, but we do put our potable bore water through it sometimes.

I bought a dux with Kevin’s money

Within a few years there was a fire in the control box

I might give the German gear a go

My main gripe with the Dux/Quantum system is the position of the reset button. I have to climb up on the tank stand, take the lid off and reach in to press the button. It would have been really easy for that button to have been put towards the outside of the “tank” bit with a little swingaway flap to be opened to reach it. Needs resetting whenever we have a power glitch. Sometimes on a really hot day needs resetting too. Sometimes after a thunderstorm (although that might actually be power glitches that we don’t notice). Certainly no other problems with either of them.

buffy said:

wookiemeister said:

buffy said:

Our first heat pump system (I think it was Dux, before Quantum and Dux separated) was installed in the late 1980s at our previous house. I don’t know how long it lasted. We moved to this house over 20 years ago and installed a Quantum system with the black roof thing for heating the gas. It still works, but the roof thing is growing lichen and can’t be cleaned now, so we are looking at a replacement. I think over 20 years is a pretty good build quality. It mostly deals with tank water, but we do put our potable bore water through it sometimes.

I bought a dux with Kevin’s money

Within a few years there was a fire in the control box

I might give the German gear a go

My main gripe with the Dux/Quantum system is the position of the reset button. I have to climb up on the tank stand, take the lid off and reach in to press the button. It would have been really easy for that button to have been put towards the outside of the “tank” bit with a little swingaway flap to be opened to reach it. Needs resetting whenever we have a power glitch. Sometimes on a really hot day needs resetting too. Sometimes after a thunderstorm (although that might actually be power glitches that we don’t notice). Certainly no other problems with either of them.

Oh, and you must have added considerably to Kevin’s money to get a heat pump hot water system. I used mine on a chook tractor…

I keep meaning to sort out the gaggle wires installed by the builders in the roof

What’s the dream?

Put all the cabling on some plastic cable tray so no cables are left running around over insulation / timber/ anything else

I was working in a medical situation a while ago and started testing all the 10 ma RCDs you find in this situations ( often the socket in the wall has an RCD built into it).

I installed a 30ma socket that seems to cover two other sockets for the hell of it

I installed some NHP RCDs that cover the power and light ( installed under the older rules) but the RCD test button both seemed to shit itself on both after a few years. I might just bite the bullet and install combos on each circuit.

Keep meaning to install a proper earth bar – the installers have soldered 5 P.E s together ( or more) not allowed.

buffy said:

buffy said:

wookiemeister said:

I bought a dux with Kevin’s money

Within a few years there was a fire in the control box

I might give the German gear a go

My main gripe with the Dux/Quantum system is the position of the reset button. I have to climb up on the tank stand, take the lid off and reach in to press the button. It would have been really easy for that button to have been put towards the outside of the “tank” bit with a little swingaway flap to be opened to reach it. Needs resetting whenever we have a power glitch. Sometimes on a really hot day needs resetting too. Sometimes after a thunderstorm (although that might actually be power glitches that we don’t notice). Certainly no other problems with either of them.

Oh, and you must have added considerably to Kevin’s money to get a heat pump hot water system. I used mine on a chook tractor…

Most people bought new TVs

They’d all be in the tip now

They should have used that money to build the renewable network we needed

Too late now, I just decided to take responsibility for my own power use.

wookiemeister said:

buffy said:

buffy said:

My main gripe with the Dux/Quantum system is the position of the reset button. I have to climb up on the tank stand, take the lid off and reach in to press the button. It would have been really easy for that button to have been put towards the outside of the “tank” bit with a little swingaway flap to be opened to reach it. Needs resetting whenever we have a power glitch. Sometimes on a really hot day needs resetting too. Sometimes after a thunderstorm (although that might actually be power glitches that we don’t notice). Certainly no other problems with either of them.

Oh, and you must have added considerably to Kevin’s money to get a heat pump hot water system. I used mine on a chook tractor…

Most people bought new TVs

They’d all be in the tip now

They should have used that money to build the renewable network we needed

Too late now, I just decided to take responsibility for my own power use.

I got two Rudd payments. Almost all the first went into paying bills. State and local govt. The second was because I was a student. I bought a laptop and printmaking materials.

To my mind we should have started solar cell manufacturing and simply buying bonifide solar arrays from anywhere but China. I still like solar arrays / batteries on individual houses because it gives autonomy to the individual – if the grid goes down each house has power. Each house has to manage its power. Excess power is sold to industry / commercial enterprise.

The next purchase will probably be the heat pump hot water system. No more gas. The gas is inconvenient because you are always buggering around keeping gates unlocked, having to order / so the list goes on – couldn’t work out how to open a gate etc.

LOL

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-flower-smartflower-solar-tracker

when the frills exceed the true value

SCIENCE said:

LOL

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-flower-smartflower-solar-tracker

when the frills exceed the true value

Jaysus.

sibeen said:

SCIENCE said:

LOL

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-flower-smartflower-solar-tracker

when the frills exceed the true value

Jaysus.

Well it seems it does actually produce some electricity, if you have a spare patch of unshaded garden to place it on, but I’m a litte sceptical of its artistic value.

sibeen said:

SCIENCE said:

LOL

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-flower-smartflower-solar-tracker

when the frills exceed the true value

Jaysus.

Is the Smartflower worth it?

When asking this question, it depends on what type of person you are and what you could be looking to achieve by installing a Smartflower system. 

This piece of technology is a conversation piece. It’s also a work of art. If you’re a budget-minded, practical consumer, the Smartflower doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

However, if you have a sizable chunk of disposable income, are looking to grab some attention, and want to inspire people to take action while tastefully adding to your property’s aesthetics, then absolutely, the Smartflower is worthy of your consideration. 

That’s a no, then

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

This is a good idea.

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

This is a good idea.

No worries.

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

sibeen said:

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

This is a good idea.

In what way?

wait so all that overnight baseload stuff was bunkum after all

¿

hot damn

The Rev Dodgson said:

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

So make daytime electricity cheaper and peak evening much more expensive and subsidise batteries.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

So make daytime electricity cheaper and peak evening much more expensive and subsidise batteries.

I’m not middle class but seem to have gotten a really good rebate from the government, barely paid anything for our system and had the decent payback into the grid.
So many dodgy installers now, outright liars.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

ChrispenEvan said:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/networks-test-time-of-use-appetite-with-zero-cost-daytime-electricity-offer/

Link

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

My personal opinion is that all rebates should end once the cost of the original install have been reached. after that, there are about a billion other climate measures that could better use the govt funding than domestic roof top solar rebates.

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

My personal opinion is that all rebates should end once the cost of the original install have been reached. after that, there are about a billion other climate measures that could better use the govt funding than domestic roof top solar rebates.

I suppose its one in the voters minds as its helps them personally and may persuade them to vote for the party who implemented it

Cymek said:

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

My personal opinion is that all rebates should end once the cost of the original install have been reached. after that, there are about a billion other climate measures that could better use the govt funding than domestic roof top solar rebates.

I suppose its one in the voters minds as its helps them personally and may persuade them to vote for the party who implemented it

who even remembers who implemented it? it’s quite frankly outrageous that some people have had very high rebates locked in for decades, and will likely continue on for decades (if they don’t move). It’s very poor public policy IMO.

diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

diddly-squat said:

My personal opinion is that all rebates should end once the cost of the original install have been reached. after that, there are about a billion other climate measures that could better use the govt funding than domestic roof top solar rebates.

I suppose its one in the voters minds as its helps them personally and may persuade them to vote for the party who implemented it

who even remembers who implemented it? it’s quite frankly outrageous that some people have had very high rebates locked in for decades, and will likely continue on for decades (if they don’t move). It’s very poor public policy IMO.

In NSW the rebates were cut right back several years ago.

The idea that people who forked out a large sum of money to reduce their electricity costs in the long term should get zero benefit from that as soon as they have got their initial investment back is just ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariffs_in_Australia

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

No need to make it free, just cheap, as in live electricity pricing.

And it is not only the expense of solar, the bulk of those living in units and apartments have no hope of having anywhere to install it.

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Yeah, great way to get people to spend big bucks installing solar.

Make daytime electricity free for everyone.

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

No need to make it free, just cheap, as in live electricity pricing.

And it is not only the expense of solar, the bulk of those living in units and apartments have no hope of having anywhere to install it.

I wonder if those living in units etc could, say, buy “shares” in a solar project and get a reduced bill through that?

ChrispenEvan said:

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

No need to make it free, just cheap, as in live electricity pricing.

And it is not only the expense of solar, the bulk of those living in units and apartments have no hope of having anywhere to install it.

I wonder if those living in units etc could, say, buy “shares” in a solar project and get a reduced bill through that?

Like those bald men who are solar panels for a sex machine

ChrispenEvan said:

Dark Orange said:

sibeen said:

There are lots of people who have buckley’s chance of ever installing solar due to the cost. The rebates have always been a bit of a middle class welfare.

No need to make it free, just cheap, as in live electricity pricing.

And it is not only the expense of solar, the bulk of those living in units and apartments have no hope of having anywhere to install it.

I wonder if those living in units etc could, say, buy “shares” in a solar project and get a reduced bill through that?

There should be regulations + incentives in place to make it a no-brainer for companies building new appartments to put solar on the roof (and anywhere else it might fit), and also high standard insulation, batteries etc, but apparently that’s too difficult since it doesn’t seem to be happening.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

Cymek said:

I suppose its one in the voters minds as its helps them personally and may persuade them to vote for the party who implemented it

who even remembers who implemented it? it’s quite frankly outrageous that some people have had very high rebates locked in for decades, and will likely continue on for decades (if they don’t move). It’s very poor public policy IMO.

In NSW the rebates were cut right back several years ago.

The idea that people who forked out a large sum of money to reduce their electricity costs in the long term should get zero benefit from that as soon as they have got their initial investment back is just ridiculous.

The benefit is the reduced power cost… above and beyond that, pouring govt money into middle class welfare is, like I said, poor public policy

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

who even remembers who implemented it? it’s quite frankly outrageous that some people have had very high rebates locked in for decades, and will likely continue on for decades (if they don’t move). It’s very poor public policy IMO.

In NSW the rebates were cut right back several years ago.

The idea that people who forked out a large sum of money to reduce their electricity costs in the long term should get zero benefit from that as soon as they have got their initial investment back is just ridiculous.

The benefit is the reduced power cost… above and beyond that, pouring govt money into middle class welfare is, like I said, poor public policy

Well if we are going to stop people making a small % profit from a long term investment, how about starting with all the companies making a fortune out of road tolls.

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

who even remembers who implemented it? it’s quite frankly outrageous that some people have had very high rebates locked in for decades, and will likely continue on for decades (if they don’t move). It’s very poor public policy IMO.

In NSW the rebates were cut right back several years ago.

The idea that people who forked out a large sum of money to reduce their electricity costs in the long term should get zero benefit from that as soon as they have got their initial investment back is just ridiculous.

The benefit is the reduced power cost… above and beyond that, pouring govt money into middle class welfare is, like I said, poor public policy

And in what way is people getting paid for energy they supply to the grid “middle class welfare”?

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

In NSW the rebates were cut right back several years ago.

The idea that people who forked out a large sum of money to reduce their electricity costs in the long term should get zero benefit from that as soon as they have got their initial investment back is just ridiculous.

The benefit is the reduced power cost… above and beyond that, pouring govt money into middle class welfare is, like I said, poor public policy

And in what way is people getting paid for energy they supply to the grid “middle class welfare”?

He’s in the lower upper class bracket now

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

who even remembers who implemented it? it’s quite frankly outrageous that some people have had very high rebates locked in for decades, and will likely continue on for decades (if they don’t move). It’s very poor public policy IMO.

In NSW the rebates were cut right back several years ago.

The idea that people who forked out a large sum of money to reduce their electricity costs in the long term should get zero benefit from that as soon as they have got their initial investment back is just ridiculous.

The benefit is the reduced power cost… above and beyond that, pouring govt money into middle class welfare is, like I said, poor public policy

Changing this would not be a priority for me. These people made early investments that brought emissions reductions forward on the basis of policy: you wouldn’t want to send the message that trusting the govt by investing in renewables is a bad idea.

Maybe one day when there is a universal nationwide carbon price, you could look at gently sunsetting those rebates, but nrn.

Nobody Could Have Foreseen Any Of This

LOL

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-29/aemo-reports-record-wholesale-power-price-customer-nightmare/101279554

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-31/wave-power-generator-supplying-king-island-with-electricity/101282070

The latest energy device to hit the waves.

From the article:

The company said the UniWave200 had made enough energy for 200 homes.
Err- scratches head.

The $12 million unit was constructed in Launceston and extensively tested at the Australian Maritime College.
That’s quite expensive, but you would expect that for a bespoke model.

The 200-kilowatt wave energy converter has no moving parts in the water and uses an oscillating water column design, which essentially mimics a natural blow hole.
So being 200 kW it could really only power 200 really small houses then.

The other thing that isn’t talked about is the capacity factor of the unit.

Yeah… damn. You’d have to assume that the unit costs will reduce by 2 orders of magnitude in order to be competitive.

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/goodbye-blackouts-chinas-power-grid-can-now-be-reset-in-three-seconds-thanks-to-ai

Link

ChrispenEvan said:

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/goodbye-blackouts-chinas-power-grid-can-now-be-reset-in-three-seconds-thanks-to-ai

Link

Interesting, especially this bit:

“Now the outage is almost nothing. The power comes as soon as it stops, not affecting life and work in any way,” an unnamed resident told the state-owned newspaper.

ChrispenEvan said:

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/goodbye-blackouts-chinas-power-grid-can-now-be-reset-in-three-seconds-thanks-to-ai

Link

“And Chinese power grid workers are probably the most efficient in the world. But when it happens, it still takes hours to fix the problem,” he added.

Yeah, they are, rooly trooly.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-01/what-the-government-should-do-to-rein-in-your-soaring-power-bill/101287010

For all the excuses about Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and western sanctions against Russia being to blame for soaring Australian power bills, the price we pay for our own gas doesn’t have to be determined by foreign events.

Until a decade ago, east coast gas was produced solely for Australian consumption and domestic prices were amongst the lowest in the world.

That all changed when a collection of largely foreign-owned multinationals opened up the east coast market for export, promising there would be no domestic shortages.

FUCK CHINA

interesting how those communists at Your ABC make it sound like these players just choose to not produce power if the prices aren’t high enough

Australian Energy Market Operator was forced to intervene in the east coast market earlier this winter to cap prices and compel electricity generators to produce power.

SCIENCE said:

interesting how those communists at Your ABC make it sound like these players just choose to not produce power if the prices aren’t high enough

Australian Energy Market Operator was forced to intervene in the east coast market earlier this winter to cap prices and compel electricity generators to produce power.

Is that how you read that? Interesting.

Dark Orange said:

SCIENCE said:

interesting how those communists at Your ABC make it sound like these players just choose to not produce power if the prices aren’t high enough

Australian Energy Market Operator was forced to intervene in the east coast market earlier this winter to cap prices and compel electricity generators to produce power.

Is that how you read that? Interesting.

What’s the correct interpretation¿

Dark Orange said:

SCIENCE said:

interesting how those communists at Your ABC make it sound like these players just choose to not produce power if the prices aren’t high enough

Australian Energy Market Operator was forced to intervene in the east coast market earlier this winter to cap prices and compel electricity generators to produce power.

Is that how you read that? Interesting.

I mean that’s exactly what happened…

Mr Bowen said the Star of the South proposal off the Victorian coast in Bass Strait would generate enough electricity to cater for 20 per cent of Victoria’s energy needs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-05/offshore-windfarms-climate-renewable-energy-turbines/101303944

Looking it up, Star of the South are proposing 2.2 GW of power to be installed with up to 200 turbines. The rest of it looks like it is still in the very early planning stages. No idea about capacity factor etc.

Mr Bowen said the Star of the South proposal off the Victorian coast in Bass Strait would generate enough electricity to cater for 20 per cent of Victoria’s energy needs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-05/offshore-windfarms-climate-renewable-energy-turbines/101303944

Looking it up, Star of the South are proposing 2.2 GW of power to be installed with up to 200 turbines. The rest of it looks like it is still in the very early planning stages. No idea about capacity factor etc.

sibeen said:

Mr Bowen said the Star of the South proposal off the Victorian coast in Bass Strait would generate enough electricity to cater for 20 per cent of Victoria’s energy needs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-05/offshore-windfarms-climate-renewable-energy-turbines/101303944

Looking it up, Star of the South are proposing 2.2 GW of power to be installed with up to 200 turbines. The rest of it looks like it is still in the very early planning stages. No idea about capacity factor etc.

So 4.4 GW and 400 turbines, ambitious

sibeen said:

Mr Bowen said the Star of the South proposal off the Victorian coast in Bass Strait would generate enough electricity to cater for 20 per cent of Victoria’s energy needs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-05/offshore-windfarms-climate-renewable-energy-turbines/101303944

Looking it up, Star of the South are proposing 2.2 GW of power to be installed with up to 200 turbines. The rest of it looks like it is still in the very early planning stages. No idea about capacity factor etc.

Victoria’s current electrical power demand is about 7.7 GW mean.

They could reasonably hope for a 35% capfac so unless there’s some other aspect they are aiming for more like 10%

dv said:

sibeen said:

Mr Bowen said the Star of the South proposal off the Victorian coast in Bass Strait would generate enough electricity to cater for 20 per cent of Victoria’s energy needs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-05/offshore-windfarms-climate-renewable-energy-turbines/101303944

Looking it up, Star of the South are proposing 2.2 GW of power to be installed with up to 200 turbines. The rest of it looks like it is still in the very early planning stages. No idea about capacity factor etc.

Victoria’s current electrical power demand is about 7.7 GW mean.

They could reasonably hope for a 35% capfac so unless there’s some other aspect they are aiming for more like 10%

Or two DeLorean trips somewhen in time if they economise

dv said:

sibeen said:

Mr Bowen said the Star of the South proposal off the Victorian coast in Bass Strait would generate enough electricity to cater for 20 per cent of Victoria’s energy needs.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-05/offshore-windfarms-climate-renewable-energy-turbines/101303944

Looking it up, Star of the South are proposing 2.2 GW of power to be installed with up to 200 turbines. The rest of it looks like it is still in the very early planning stages. No idea about capacity factor etc.

Victoria’s current electrical power demand is about 7.7 GW mean.

They could reasonably hope for a 35% capfac so unless there’s some other aspect they are aiming for more like 10%

That’s why I went looking for capacity factor on their website. Thought out in Bass Strait they may be getting roolly goody figures, something that could back up the 20% mooted.

so what’s this all about then, like don’t they have contracts for this kind of thing or were people operating off the assumption that there would be grants arbitrarily forever

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-07/funding-ends-for-community-power-hub-program/101300532

https://www.coastlive.com.au/news/local-news/installation-begins-on-was-biggest-battery-in-kwinana/

Link

Bogsnorkler said:

https://www.coastlive.com.au/news/local-news/installation-begins-on-was-biggest-battery-in-kwinana/

Link

$155 million for 200 MWh storage…

That’s actually not a bad price.

https://assets.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/documents/resources/reports/clean-energy-australia/clean-energy-australia-report-2022.pdf

dv said:

https://assets.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/documents/resources/reports/clean-energy-australia/clean-energy-australia-report-2022.pdf

Getting that to 82% in 8 years is going to be a stretch.

sibeen said:

dv said:

https://assets.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/documents/resources/reports/clean-energy-australia/clean-energy-australia-report-2022.pdf

Getting that to 82% in 8 years is going to be a stretch.

Might not have been if the previous government hadn’t spend 8 years with its head stuck firmly in the sand. Or if the preceding government had had a bit more in the way of balls for three years. Or if the government before that hadn’t spent 11 years pioneering the head-in-the-sand approach.

Just thought I’d throw these two maps in here. Shows how lucky we are for renewable energy resources. Places where the sun ain’t that great is just grand for wind.

sibeen said:

Just thought I’d throw these two maps in here. Shows how lucky we are for renewable energy resources. Places where the sun ain’t that great is just grand for wind.

And the lucky people north of Perth have the best of both.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Just thought I’d throw these two maps in here. Shows how lucky we are for renewable energy resources. Places where the sun ain’t that great is just grand for wind.

And the lucky people north of Perth have the best of both.

They need the compensation :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Just thought I’d throw these two maps in here. Shows how lucky we are for renewable energy resources. Places where the sun ain’t that great is just grand for wind.

And the lucky people north of Perth have the best of both.

there’s not many of them, most are in Perth or the SW corner.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Just thought I’d throw these two maps in here. Shows how lucky we are for renewable energy resources. Places where the sun ain’t that great is just grand for wind.

And the lucky people north of Perth have the best of both.

They need the compensation :)

wouldn’t need it if we got our fair share of the GST!!!

Bogsnorkler said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

And the lucky people north of Perth have the best of both.

They need the compensation :)

wouldn’t need it if we got our fair share of the GST!!!

Ahh, I see that you’ve gone full WAlien.

The energy ministers of New South Wales and Victoria have taken a swipe at gas companies exporting Australian resources overseas, claiming their pursuit of profits led to the recent energy crisis which they labeled “bizarre”.

Federal, state and territory energy ministers agreed on Friday to extend the powers of the Australian Energy Market Operator (Aemo) to better manage gas supply issues ahead of an expected shortfall in 2023, including giving the regulator more data on energy supply and allowing it to contract more storage capacity

—-

(Scratches head) look you have to expect that companies will maximise their returns within the limits of the law. You’re the staye governments. You’re the regulators. You done fucked up and.

dv said:

The energy ministers of New South Wales and Victoria have taken a swipe at gas companies exporting Australian resources overseas, claiming their pursuit of profits led to the recent energy crisis which they labeled “bizarre”.

Federal, state and territory energy ministers agreed on Friday to extend the powers of the Australian Energy Market Operator (Aemo) to better manage gas supply issues ahead of an expected shortfall in 2023, including giving the regulator more data on energy supply and allowing it to contract more storage capacity

—-

(Scratches head) look you have to expect that companies will maximise their returns within the limits of the law. You’re the staye governments. You’re the regulators. You done fucked up and.

There was some argument over domestic gas reservations at the time prior to approval going ahead.

dv said:

The energy ministers of New South Wales and Victoria have taken a swipe at gas companies exporting Australian resources overseas, claiming their pursuit of profits led to the recent energy crisis which they labeled “bizarre”.

Federal, state and territory energy ministers agreed on Friday to extend the powers of the Australian Energy Market Operator (Aemo) to better manage gas supply issues ahead of an expected shortfall in 2023, including giving the regulator more data on energy supply and allowing it to contract more storage capacity

—-

(Scratches head) look you have to expect that companies will maximise their returns within the limits of the law. You’re the staye governments. You’re the regulators. You done fucked up and.

The state governments could have invested billions of dollars into the projects for a right to a guaranteed (and discounted) supply just like the gas importers did, but they didn’t.

Dark Orange said:

dv said:

The energy ministers of New South Wales and Victoria have taken a swipe at gas companies exporting Australian resources overseas, claiming their pursuit of profits led to the recent energy crisis which they labeled “bizarre”.

Federal, state and territory energy ministers agreed on Friday to extend the powers of the Australian Energy Market Operator (Aemo) to better manage gas supply issues ahead of an expected shortfall in 2023, including giving the regulator more data on energy supply and allowing it to contract more storage capacity

—-

(Scratches head) look you have to expect that companies will maximise their returns within the limits of the law. You’re the staye governments. You’re the regulators. You done fucked up and.

The state governments could have invested billions of dollars into the projects for a right to a guaranteed (and discounted) supply just like the gas importers did, but they didn’t.

The WA state government didn’t invest in the development, they just insisted “it is our gas”. The developers threatened to walk away from the project, the WA government said that’s fine, the gas can stay where it is and we’ll get someone else to develop it on our terms. The developers backed down and accepted the domestic reservations policy.

BTW – I seem to have received a $400 government rebate on my power bill, so I am currently in credit and will be till the end of winter. I’ve got the heater cranked up full right now.

• BTW – I seem to have received a $400 government rebate on my power bill, so I am currently in credit and will be till the end of winter. I’ve got the heater cranked up full right now

Everyone did…

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What’s the regime for cleaning the solar panels. How often do they need to get washed? What do they get washed with? Is there any problems with run-off if detergent is used? How much water does the cleaning use?

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

—-

What do you have to do?

party_pants said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What’s the regime for cleaning the solar panels. How often do they need to get washed? What do they get washed with? Is there any problems with run-off if detergent is used? How much water does the cleaning use?

As far as I am aware, they get washed every time it rains.

tauto said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

—-

What do you have to do?

Fix things that break and perform basic maintenance on the electricals. (There is 3.3kV, 11kV, 33kV, 66kV and >100kV systems, on site)

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

Certainly interested in that inverter failure rate you mentioned a few weeks ago.

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

I worked in that sector for a while.

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What’s the regime for cleaning the solar panels. How often do they need to get washed? What do they get washed with? Is there any problems with run-off if detergent is used? How much water does the cleaning use?

As far as I am aware, they get washed every time it rains.

Panels are considered to be self-cleaning unless leaves or debri collect on them but that would be unlikely on a solar farm (I’d imagine) but if you get good quality panels they have several smaller panels that work independently and should only be marginally affected after a weather event where a branch might cover a portion of a panel then only that independent grid section is affected,

monkey skipper said:

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

What’s the regime for cleaning the solar panels. How often do they need to get washed? What do they get washed with? Is there any problems with run-off if detergent is used? How much water does the cleaning use?

As far as I am aware, they get washed every time it rains.

Panels are considered to be self-cleaning unless leaves or debri collect on them but that would be unlikely on a solar farm (I’d imagine) but if you get good quality panels they have several smaller panels that work independently and should only be marginally affected after a weather event where a branch might cover a portion of a panel then only that independent grid section is affected,

surely an even better design would use bushfire to burn off any residue as well

SCIENCE said:

monkey skipper said:

Dark Orange said:

As far as I am aware, they get washed every time it rains.

Panels are considered to be self-cleaning unless leaves or debri collect on them but that would be unlikely on a solar farm (I’d imagine) but if you get good quality panels they have several smaller panels that work independently and should only be marginally affected after a weather event where a branch might cover a portion of a panel then only that independent grid section is affected,

surely an even better design would use bushfire to burn off any residue as well

erm … trying to fire stick farm a solar farm…??

monkey skipper said:

SCIENCE said:

monkey skipper said:

Panels are considered to be self-cleaning unless leaves or debri collect on them but that would be unlikely on a solar farm (I’d imagine) but if you get good quality panels they have several smaller panels that work independently and should only be marginally affected after a weather event where a branch might cover a portion of a panel then only that independent grid section is affected,

surely an even better design would use bushfire to burn off any residue as well

erm … trying to fire stick farm a solar farm…??

fire is a great cleanser.

Bogsnorkler said:

monkey skipper said:

SCIENCE said:

surely an even better design would use bushfire to burn off any residue as well

erm … trying to fire stick farm a solar farm…??

fire is a great cleanser.

I imagine there will be a lot to made from the new capacity to recycle components of solar panels for new panels starting to gain traction.

Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What’s the regime for cleaning the solar panels. How often do they need to get washed? What do they get washed with? Is there any problems with run-off if detergent is used? How much water does the cleaning use?

As far as I am aware, they get washed every time it rains.

I am just interested generally speaking.

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Kingy said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Marijuana…

monkey skipper said:

Bogsnorkler said:

monkey skipper said:

erm … trying to fire stick farm a solar farm…??

fire is a great cleanser.

I imagine there will be a lot to made from the new capacity to recycle components of solar panels for new panels starting to gain traction.

there are companies out there that will do a check and clean but the company I worked with suggest that the panels are considered self cleaning because that are installed on a tilt , usually any debri would slide off, if your panels are sitting under the shade of a tree then you started off with a dodgie company because panels should be put on a roof with the maximum op for sun capture and putting panels on a roof with too much shade is a no no really. A good installer would also recommend what trees need to be removed or that there is too much shade and they put solar on that property (or shouldn’t if they are reputable)

Kingy said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Despite it being an old cane farm, nothing. Thinking about it, they jam as many panels into the area as they can while also allowing for vehicular access so there is no space for anything else. Of course there is the possibility of livestock to keep the grass managed, but they would be extra effort and would potentially damage the panels.

monkey skipper said:

monkey skipper said:

Bogsnorkler said:

fire is a great cleanser.

I imagine there will be a lot to made from the new capacity to recycle components of solar panels for new panels starting to gain traction.

A good installer would also recommend what trees need to be removed or that there is too much shade and they WON’T put solar on that property (or shouldn’t if they are reputable)

Dark Orange said:

Kingy said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Despite it being an old cane farm, nothing. Thinking about it, they jam as many panels into the area as they can while also allowing for vehicular access so there is no space for anything else. Of course there is the possibility of livestock to keep the grass managed, but they would be extra effort and would potentially damage the panels.

are you looking foward to it?

Dark Orange said:

Kingy said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Despite it being an old cane farm, nothing. Thinking about it, they jam as many panels into the area as they can while also allowing for vehicular access so there is no space for anything else. Of course there is the possibility of livestock to keep the grass managed, but they would be extra effort and would potentially damage the panels.

how high off the ground are the solar panels mounted?

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

Yeah.
How many million dollars of damage could a powerful hailstorm do?

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

Yeah.
How many million dollars of damage could a powerful hailstorm do?

PS, if you like I can give you the exact hailstone diameter, fall velocity and horizontal velocity due to wind for each recurrence interval if you like. I did a bit of work for CSIRO on the smashing of solar panels by hailstorms.

mollwollfumble said:

Dark Orange said:

BTW, I start my new job on a large scale solar farm next week. Any specific questions you guys have?

Yeah.
How many million dollars of damage could a powerful hailstorm do?

PS, if you like I can give you the exact hailstone diameter, fall velocity and horizontal velocity due to wind for each recurrence interval if you like. I did a bit of work for CSIRO on the smashing of solar panels by hailstorms.

The panels are frameless and unprotected, so a hailstorm will do lots of damage. Although the panels are, in reality, a small percentage of the actual build cost. (I have no actual numbers though.)

monkey skipper said:

Dark Orange said:

Kingy said:

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Despite it being an old cane farm, nothing. Thinking about it, they jam as many panels into the area as they can while also allowing for vehicular access so there is no space for anything else. Of course there is the possibility of livestock to keep the grass managed, but they would be extra effort and would potentially damage the panels.

are you looking foward to it?

It’s something new in a growing field, so yes.

party_pants said:

Dark Orange said:

Kingy said:

What is being farmed under/around the solar panels?

Crops, or Stock?

Despite it being an old cane farm, nothing. Thinking about it, they jam as many panels into the area as they can while also allowing for vehicular access so there is no space for anything else. Of course there is the possibility of livestock to keep the grass managed, but they would be extra effort and would potentially damage the panels.

how high off the ground are the solar panels mounted?

Fixed ones on an angle are from about 200mm at the lower end and 2000mm at the top. These ones tilt to follow the sun, and are about 1500mm on the axis of rotation.

Dark Orange said:

monkey skipper said:

Dark Orange said:

Despite it being an old cane farm, nothing. Thinking about it, they jam as many panels into the area as they can while also allowing for vehicular access so there is no space for anything else. Of course there is the possibility of livestock to keep the grass managed, but they would be extra effort and would potentially damage the panels.

are you looking foward to it?

It’s something new in a growing field, so yes.

Hold on, just before you stated that there were no crops. make up your fucking mind!

sibeen said:

Dark Orange said:

monkey skipper said:

are you looking foward to it?

It’s something new in a growing field, so yes.

Hold on, just before you stated that there were no crops. make up your fucking mind!

Just small ones the guys grow for personal consumption.

Some solar farms get split east and west – they don’t bother facing due north. Must be something about the load and existing solar arrays – they don’t try to make maximum power at midday.

monkey skipper said:

monkey skipper said:

Bogsnorkler said:

fire is a great cleanser.

I imagine there will be a lot to made from the new capacity to recycle components of solar panels for new panels starting to gain traction.

there are companies out there that will do a check and clean but the company I worked with suggest that the panels are considered self cleaning because that are installed on a tilt , usually any debri would slide off, if your panels are sitting under the shade of a tree then you started off with a dodgie company because panels should be put on a roof with the maximum op for sun capture and putting panels on a roof with too much shade is a no no really. A good installer would also recommend what trees need to be removed or that there is too much shade and they put solar on that property (or shouldn’t if they are reputable)

Ours (nearly 20 years old now) had a lichen removal quite recently. They are unshaded from the full brunt of the sun and face North. Other than that, we don’t clean them.

buffy said:

monkey skipper said:

monkey skipper said:

I imagine there will be a lot to made from the new capacity to recycle components of solar panels for new panels starting to gain traction.

there are companies out there that will do a check and clean but the company I worked with suggest that the panels are considered self cleaning because that are installed on a tilt , usually any debri would slide off, if your panels are sitting under the shade of a tree then you started off with a dodgie company because panels should be put on a roof with the maximum op for sun capture and putting panels on a roof with too much shade is a no no really. A good installer would also recommend what trees need to be removed or that there is too much shade and they put solar on that property (or shouldn’t if they are reputable)

Ours (nearly 20 years old now) had a lichen removal quite recently. They are unshaded from the full brunt of the sun and face North. Other than that, we don’t clean them.

I just spray hose on glass cleaner on it, let it sit for 30 seconds then rinse

wookiemeister said:

buffy said:

monkey skipper said:

there are companies out there that will do a check and clean but the company I worked with suggest that the panels are considered self cleaning because that are installed on a tilt , usually any debri would slide off, if your panels are sitting under the shade of a tree then you started off with a dodgie company because panels should be put on a roof with the maximum op for sun capture and putting panels on a roof with too much shade is a no no really. A good installer would also recommend what trees need to be removed or that there is too much shade and they put solar on that property (or shouldn’t if they are reputable)

Ours (nearly 20 years old now) had a lichen removal quite recently. They are unshaded from the full brunt of the sun and face North. Other than that, we don’t clean them.

I just spray hose on glass cleaner on it, let it sit for 30 seconds then rinse

Why glass cleaner?

roughbarked said:

Dark Orange said:

Just did a count, 393,300 solar panels.

Clearly they are self cleaning. Sadie would have trouble with just a mop and a pail of water.

maybe we can breed some snails or something along those lines that feed off solar panel lichen, and that’ll be the True Green Solution to dirty power

38% of the world’s electrical power comes from low emission sources (ie nuclear or renewable).

This isn’t quite right for this thread subject but as the actress said to the bishop it’s got to go somewhere.

Michael V said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-20/solar-briefly-overtakes-coal-australia-number-one-source-power/101354054

so how were the spot prices then, were they like holy shit or were they like hey that’s awesome

Bogsnorkler said:

monkey skipper said:

SCIENCE said:

surely an even better design would use bushfire to burn off any residue as well

erm … trying to fire stick farm a solar farm…??

fire is a great cleanser.

Hail has a cleansing effect on solar power as well.
One good hailstorm and no more solar power.

Dark Orange said:

wookiemeister said:

buffy said:

Ours (nearly 20 years old now) had a lichen removal quite recently. They are unshaded from the full brunt of the sun and face North. Other than that, we don’t clean them.

I just spray hose on glass cleaner on it, let it sit for 30 seconds then rinse

Why glass cleaner?

My take on it, it’s not as chemically abrasive than say some spray on cleaners which have chlorine in then.

mollwollfumble said:

Bogsnorkler said:

monkey skipper said:

erm … trying to fire stick farm a solar farm…??

fire is a great cleanser.

Hail has a cleansing effect on solar power as well.
One good hailstorm and no more solar power.

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

wookiemeister said:

mollwollfumble said:

Bogsnorkler said:

fire is a great cleanser.

Hail has a cleansing effect on solar power as well.
One good hailstorm and no more solar power.

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

mollwollfumble said:

Hail has a cleansing effect on solar power as well.
One good hailstorm and no more solar power.

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

Small hail of 1-2mm happens a few times each winter in Perth. Large hail (say over 10 mm) is very rare – once a decade type stuff, and then it is only very localised.

party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

Small hail of 1-2mm happens a few times each winter in Perth. Large hail (say over 10 mm) is very rare – once a decade type stuff, and then it is only very localised.

We get quite a lot of hailstorms around here. Some farms get knocked about badly.
We also have whole farms covered with solar panels.

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

mollwollfumble said:

Hail has a cleansing effect on solar power as well.
One good hailstorm and no more solar power.

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

Canberra gets them. Recently, one destroyed research glasshouses.

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

Canberra gets them. Recently, one destroyed research glasshouses.

It was a big one. Did heaps of damage.

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

Canberra gets them. Recently, one destroyed research glasshouses.

January 2020.

https://www.google.com/search?q=destroyed+research+glasshouses&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU815AU815&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

soooo it is ave atque vale to solar?

Bogsnorkler said:

soooo it is ave atque vale to solar?

That’s right, it might hail, the horror…

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne suffer from major weather events – especially hail. Makes you wonder.

And Adelaide, Perth.

I haven’t heard of a hailstorm from Darwin or Canberra, though.

Canberra gets them. Recently, one destroyed research glasshouses.

Is glass in glasshouses still a thing? Would have thought it would all be acrylic or polycarbonate by now.

A new paper in nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

I’m still reading the paper.

This image basically says that Oz could have a solar and wind power system could reliably provide ~94% of total electricity demand.

sibeen said:

A new paper in nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

I’m still reading the paper.

This image basically says that Oz could have a solar and wind power system could reliably provide ~94% of total electricity demand.

It’s the kind of thing that depends on the robustness of the grid. If you have a heavy enough grid then you can average variations over thousands of km…

dv said:

sibeen said:

A new paper in nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

I’m still reading the paper.

This image basically says that Oz could have a solar and wind power system could reliably provide ~94% of total electricity demand.

It’s the kind of thing that depends on the robustness of the grid. If you have a heavy enough grid then you can average variations over thousands of km…

Which is why the gov is throwing $20B at that problem. Still leaves us 6% shy without storage.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

A new paper in nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

I’m still reading the paper.

This image basically says that Oz could have a solar and wind power system could reliably provide ~94% of total electricity demand.

It’s the kind of thing that depends on the robustness of the grid. If you have a heavy enough grid then you can average variations over thousands of km…

Which is why the gov is throwing $20B at that problem. Still leaves us 6% shy without storage.

I think we could do it with battery storage, but not lead-acid, LiFePO, or other sealed types. I’ve been doing some experiments lately with a homemade Zn-Br flow battery; I’ve only got a few hundred watts of solar panels, but it’s enough for some experiments. This style of flow battery has some major disadvantages (like the required size — its energy density is quite low compared to more conventional battery types; and the fact that it needs to be completely discharged every few cycles to remove Zn whiskers), but also has some advantages (like full discharge being possible without any damage, and simplicity of increasing capacity (just add more bromine solution); also, Zn is relatively plentiful and cheap, although Br is a bit harder to come by.)

sibeen said:

A new paper in nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

I’m still reading the paper.

This image basically says that Oz could have a solar and wind power system could reliably provide ~94% of total electricity demand.

If only there was a way of storing it; and storing it in a physical form that can be loaded on ships and sailed around the world.

btm said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

It’s the kind of thing that depends on the robustness of the grid. If you have a heavy enough grid then you can average variations over thousands of km…

Which is why the gov is throwing $20B at that problem. Still leaves us 6% shy without storage.

I think we could do it with battery storage, but not lead-acid, LiFePO, or other sealed types. I’ve been doing some experiments lately with a homemade Zn-Br flow battery; I’ve only got a few hundred watts of solar panels, but it’s enough for some experiments. This style of flow battery has some major disadvantages (like the required size — its energy density is quite low compared to more conventional battery types; and the fact that it needs to be completely discharged every few cycles to remove Zn whiskers), but also has some advantages (like full discharge being possible without any damage, and simplicity of increasing capacity (just add more bromine solution); also, Zn is relatively plentiful and cheap, although Br is a bit harder to come by.)

I thought deevs was our zinc fanboi :)

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

A new paper in nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

I’m still reading the paper.

This image basically says that Oz could have a solar and wind power system could reliably provide ~94% of total electricity demand.

It’s the kind of thing that depends on the robustness of the grid. If you have a heavy enough grid then you can average variations over thousands of km…

Which is why the gov is throwing $20B at that problem. Still leaves us 6% shy without storage.

Look I’ll pledge to keep some at my place

sibeen said:

btm said:

sibeen said:

Which is why the gov is throwing $20B at that problem. Still leaves us 6% shy without storage.

I think we could do it with battery storage, but not lead-acid, LiFePO, or other sealed types. I’ve been doing some experiments lately with a homemade Zn-Br flow battery; I’ve only got a few hundred watts of solar panels, but it’s enough for some experiments. This style of flow battery has some major disadvantages (like the required size — its energy density is quite low compared to more conventional battery types; and the fact that it needs to be completely discharged every few cycles to remove Zn whiskers), but also has some advantages (like full discharge being possible without any damage, and simplicity of increasing capacity (just add more bromine solution); also, Zn is relatively plentiful and cheap, although Br is a bit harder to come by.)

I thought deevs was our zinc fanboi :)

I’m with Big Vanadium now

dv said:

sibeen said:

btm said:

I think we could do it with battery storage, but not lead-acid, LiFePO, or other sealed types. I’ve been doing some experiments lately with a homemade Zn-Br flow battery; I’ve only got a few hundred watts of solar panels, but it’s enough for some experiments. This style of flow battery has some major disadvantages (like the required size — its energy density is quite low compared to more conventional battery types; and the fact that it needs to be completely discharged every few cycles to remove Zn whiskers), but also has some advantages (like full discharge being possible without any damage, and simplicity of increasing capacity (just add more bromine solution); also, Zn is relatively plentiful and cheap, although Br is a bit harder to come by.)

I thought deevs was our zinc fanboi :)

I’m with Big Vanadium now

Always on the money eh?

You wouldn’t bother shipping the energy in Australia around the world just move the load to Australia

You could run data/ computing systems in Australia – cheap power to run the world’s data

Use it to create aluminium in a useful form , or copper/ zinc – there are energy intensive industries

Power of a night can be provided by closed loop hydro – use tunnels or concrete pipes ( easier/ cheaper) to store water as a water battery.

You create a nation wide HVDC system to shift the power around

We won’t use our money to build anything useful – we build stadiums no one wants. We build our real estate ponzi scheme and holes in the ground.

wookiemeister said:

You wouldn’t bother shipping the energy in Australia around the world just move the load to Australia

You could run data/ computing systems in Australia – cheap power to run the world’s data

Use it to create aluminium in a useful form , or copper/ zinc – there are energy intensive industries

Power of a night can be provided by closed loop hydro – use tunnels or concrete pipes ( easier/ cheaper) to store water as a water battery.

You create a nation wide HVDC system to shift the power around

We won’t use our money to build anything useful – we build stadiums no one wants. We build our real estate ponzi scheme and holes in the ground.

We do treat the place like we don’t give a shit. This is true.

I don’t like wind turbines because they kill a whole host of creatures. There ARE designs that don’t kill animals but they are less efficient ( slow moving vertical turbines that are more efficient split drum types).

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

You wouldn’t bother shipping the energy in Australia around the world just move the load to Australia

You could run data/ computing systems in Australia – cheap power to run the world’s data

Use it to create aluminium in a useful form , or copper/ zinc – there are energy intensive industries

Power of a night can be provided by closed loop hydro – use tunnels or concrete pipes ( easier/ cheaper) to store water as a water battery.

You create a nation wide HVDC system to shift the power around

We won’t use our money to build anything useful – we build stadiums no one wants. We build our real estate ponzi scheme and holes in the ground.

We do treat the place like we don’t give a shit. This is true.

Mining, farming and real estate do untold damage ( along with unrestricted feral animals and poisoning from 1080 poison ( nazi chemical warfare agent , invented to kill concentration camp inmates , rejected now proudly used in Australia, we shouldn’t be using ANY poisons)).