Date: 17/07/2022 13:27:56
From: transition
ID: 1909807
Subject: when science substitutes for nature

be halfway there possibly, something of of social constructionist paradise really, or perhaps more a dystopia, who knows

maybe it’s the end days, the end days of nature, the human conception of the world evolved, the way people experience it will be compressed down to the more immediate experience, history will largely be abandoned, arguably culture might be abandoned

the contemporists will rule

maybe it will eventuate that only the previous hour matters, or previous day, stretch that to a week or year, whatever fluidity that way is convenient, or expedient, give it light regard, fleeting, transient maybe

whatever detachment, to that end

but who rules the parallel worlds that are, into the future, what was made so and what was made not, made so by what was made not, and who might be left to consider what is displaced by what is, now, but further what might be completely vanished, vanished from consciousness, and what consciousness might be vanished

what consciousness might be banished, and the remaining converge

is it a no-place waiting, when there is no nature outside of science, when science entirely substitutes for nature, if it did

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 14:11:20
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1909822
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:

be halfway there possibly, something of of social constructionist paradise really, or perhaps more a dystopia, who knows

maybe it’s the end days, the end days of nature, the human conception of the world evolved, the way people experience it will be compressed down to the more immediate experience, history will largely be abandoned, arguably culture might be abandoned

the contemporists will rule

maybe it will eventuate that only the previous hour matters, or previous day, stretch that to a week or year, whatever fluidity that way is convenient, or expedient, give it light regard, fleeting, transient maybe

whatever detachment, to that end

but who rules the parallel worlds that are, into the future, what was made so and what was made not, made so by what was made not, and who might be left to consider what is displaced by what is, now, but further what might be completely vanished, vanished from consciousness, and what consciousness might be vanished

what consciousness might be banished, and the remaining converge

is it a no-place waiting, when there is no nature outside of science, when science entirely substitutes for nature, if it did

Reads heading – must be a transition thread.

At least I got that right.

You seem to have a weird either-orist picture of what science is.

I don’t even see what you describe as being current trends, let alone inevitable outcomes.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 14:19:57
From: transition
ID: 1909826
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

be halfway there possibly, something of of social constructionist paradise really, or perhaps more a dystopia, who knows

maybe it’s the end days, the end days of nature, the human conception of the world evolved, the way people experience it will be compressed down to the more immediate experience, history will largely be abandoned, arguably culture might be abandoned

the contemporists will rule

maybe it will eventuate that only the previous hour matters, or previous day, stretch that to a week or year, whatever fluidity that way is convenient, or expedient, give it light regard, fleeting, transient maybe

whatever detachment, to that end

but who rules the parallel worlds that are, into the future, what was made so and what was made not, made so by what was made not, and who might be left to consider what is displaced by what is, now, but further what might be completely vanished, vanished from consciousness, and what consciousness might be vanished

what consciousness might be banished, and the remaining converge

is it a no-place waiting, when there is no nature outside of science, when science entirely substitutes for nature, if it did

Reads heading – must be a transition thread.

At least I got that right.

You seem to have a weird either-orist picture of what science is.

I don’t even see what you describe as being current trends, let alone inevitable outcomes.

try maybe to consider all the imprecise mechanisms of minds collectively of the many humans that inhabit the earth, perhaps start there, consider the ideas that convince us they are more precise, or that they should be

and you have an anti-either-orist fetish perhaps, you might consider contacting the fixated persons unit (humor alert)

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 15:09:17
From: buffy
ID: 1909839
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

be halfway there possibly, something of of social constructionist paradise really, or perhaps more a dystopia, who knows

maybe it’s the end days, the end days of nature, the human conception of the world evolved, the way people experience it will be compressed down to the more immediate experience, history will largely be abandoned, arguably culture might be abandoned

the contemporists will rule

maybe it will eventuate that only the previous hour matters, or previous day, stretch that to a week or year, whatever fluidity that way is convenient, or expedient, give it light regard, fleeting, transient maybe

whatever detachment, to that end

but who rules the parallel worlds that are, into the future, what was made so and what was made not, made so by what was made not, and who might be left to consider what is displaced by what is, now, but further what might be completely vanished, vanished from consciousness, and what consciousness might be vanished

what consciousness might be banished, and the remaining converge

is it a no-place waiting, when there is no nature outside of science, when science entirely substitutes for nature, if it did

Reads heading – must be a transition thread.

At least I got that right.

You seem to have a weird either-orist picture of what science is.

I don’t even see what you describe as being current trends, let alone inevitable outcomes.

I read the first “sentence” and didn’t bother further.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 15:12:35
From: dv
ID: 1909840
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

I don’t understand the question

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 15:17:23
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909842
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


I don’t understand the question

join the club.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 15:20:39
From: transition
ID: 1909843
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


I don’t understand the question

start with there is a nature outside science and human conception of it (entirely outside human mental activity really), I guess not unlike there is a physics outside the formalism of science

then go to science inclines a view of nature, shared view really

but further consider a person can have faith in science, not really be any good at it, and still see nature through the ‘idea’ of science, be convinced their view is from science

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 15:21:39
From: dv
ID: 1909844
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 15:53:53
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1909853
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:


dv said:

I don’t understand the question

start with there is a nature outside science and human conception of it (entirely outside human mental activity really), I guess not unlike there is a physics outside the formalism of science

then go to science inclines a view of nature, shared view really

but further consider a person can have faith in science, not really be any good at it, and still see nature through the ‘idea’ of science, be convinced their view is from science

There are of course aspects of “nature” where science provides little or no insight into how it works, but as far as I can find any meaning in your chosen words, in the order presented, you seem to be saying that the power of science to provide understanding of all aspects of nature should be dismissed, or at least significantly reduced.

If that is what you are saying then I disagree.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:03:29
From: transition
ID: 1909859
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

dv said:

I don’t understand the question

start with there is a nature outside science and human conception of it (entirely outside human mental activity really), I guess not unlike there is a physics outside the formalism of science

then go to science inclines a view of nature, shared view really

but further consider a person can have faith in science, not really be any good at it, and still see nature through the ‘idea’ of science, be convinced their view is from science

There are of course aspects of “nature” where science provides little or no insight into how it works, but as far as I can find any meaning in your chosen words, in the order presented, you seem to be saying that the power of science to provide understanding of all aspects of nature should be dismissed, or at least significantly reduced.

If that is what you are saying then I disagree.

no i’m not saying anything of the sort

I love science, don’t get me wrong

i’ll try conjure some abstraction to demonstrate it

you’re a child in 2100, much of nature is destroyed, you’re raised in a small unit, most of your experience of the then existing world is indoors and via electronic media, you go to school and learn lots of science, you become highly competent at science, and all the technology in your life is the consequence largely of science

your first experience of the world are the products of science, less-so nature

in a way science now (then, in the future) substitutes for nature, displaced it

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:09:54
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1909861
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

start with there is a nature outside science and human conception of it (entirely outside human mental activity really), I guess not unlike there is a physics outside the formalism of science

then go to science inclines a view of nature, shared view really

but further consider a person can have faith in science, not really be any good at it, and still see nature through the ‘idea’ of science, be convinced their view is from science

There are of course aspects of “nature” where science provides little or no insight into how it works, but as far as I can find any meaning in your chosen words, in the order presented, you seem to be saying that the power of science to provide understanding of all aspects of nature should be dismissed, or at least significantly reduced.

If that is what you are saying then I disagree.

no i’m not saying anything of the sort

I love science, don’t get me wrong

i’ll try conjure some abstraction to demonstrate it

you’re a child in 2100, much of nature is destroyed, you’re raised in a small unit, most of your experience of the then existing world is indoors and via electronic media, you go to school and learn lots of science, you become highly competent at science, and all the technology in your life is the consequence largely of science

your first experience of the world are the products of science, less-so nature

in a way science now (then, in the future) substitutes for nature, displaced it

I’m glad you were not saying anything of the sort.

How do people survive in your 2100 with little or no nature?

What do they eat, for a start?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:11:56
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1909862
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

There are of course aspects of “nature” where science provides little or no insight into how it works, but as far as I can find any meaning in your chosen words, in the order presented, you seem to be saying that the power of science to provide understanding of all aspects of nature should be dismissed, or at least significantly reduced.

If that is what you are saying then I disagree.

no i’m not saying anything of the sort

I love science, don’t get me wrong

i’ll try conjure some abstraction to demonstrate it

you’re a child in 2100, much of nature is destroyed, you’re raised in a small unit, most of your experience of the then existing world is indoors and via electronic media, you go to school and learn lots of science, you become highly competent at science, and all the technology in your life is the consequence largely of science

your first experience of the world are the products of science, less-so nature

in a way science now (then, in the future) substitutes for nature, displaced it

I’m glad you were not saying anything of the sort.

How do people survive in your 2100 with little or no nature?

What do they eat, for a start?


Eloi

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:12:48
From: dv
ID: 1909863
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

It’s all nature

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:13:35
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1909864
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:

I love science,

thank you and we love everyone but we don’t substitute for nature

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:16:55
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1909866
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:19:12
From: dv
ID: 1909870
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

Of course people use words to mean different things and while I think there is no fundamental dichotomy between human-rrlated and general features of the universe, if by nature you mean the landscape unaltered by humans then you missed the boat in Australia by some 50000 years.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:22:14
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1909872
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

oh well then just wait until we fucking explode all your minds with this revelation, that the concept of Natural Science exists and it’s actually a thing

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:22:41
From: transition
ID: 1909874
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

There are of course aspects of “nature” where science provides little or no insight into how it works, but as far as I can find any meaning in your chosen words, in the order presented, you seem to be saying that the power of science to provide understanding of all aspects of nature should be dismissed, or at least significantly reduced.

If that is what you are saying then I disagree.

no i’m not saying anything of the sort

I love science, don’t get me wrong

i’ll try conjure some abstraction to demonstrate it

you’re a child in 2100, much of nature is destroyed, you’re raised in a small unit, most of your experience of the then existing world is indoors and via electronic media, you go to school and learn lots of science, you become highly competent at science, and all the technology in your life is the consequence largely of science

your first experience of the world are the products of science, less-so nature

in a way science now (then, in the future) substitutes for nature, displaced it

I’m glad you were not saying anything of the sort.

How do people survive in your 2100 with little or no nature?

What do they eat, for a start?

keep to ideas for the moment

let’s say the evolved complexity of life declines, types, complexity (kinds) and scale (distribution) – a loss of evolved complexity, or diversity it’s commonly said

diversity loss, say the earth gets largely scorched by planetary warming, a denuded of native foliage that previously evolved

anyway back to the example

the kids experience from an increasingly earlier age might be the products of science, and they might learn science, be really good at it, but there will be less nature

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:22:46
From: dv
ID: 1909875
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

SCIENCE said:


oh well then just wait until we fucking explode all your minds with this revelation, that the concept of Natural Science exists and it’s actually a thing

You’re lying.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:25:02
From: transition
ID: 1909877
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


Of course people use words to mean different things and while I think there is no fundamental dichotomy between human-rrlated and general features of the universe, if by nature you mean the landscape unaltered by humans then you missed the boat in Australia by some 50000 years.

I think I made it fairly clear I used nature to point to that outside the work of human minds, yeah it’s philosophy, exploration that way

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:28:18
From: dv
ID: 1909878
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:


dv said:

Of course people use words to mean different things and while I think there is no fundamental dichotomy between human-rrlated and general features of the universe, if by nature you mean the landscape unaltered by humans then you missed the boat in Australia by some 50000 years.

I think I made it fairly clear I used nature to point to that outside the work of human minds, yeah it’s philosophy, exploration that way

So someone shut in a room using tech to explore or monitor to deep sea environment or rainforests, where do they fall on the spectrum?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:34:34
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1909884
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


transition said:

dv said:

Of course people use words to mean different things and while I think there is no fundamental dichotomy between human-rrlated and general features of the universe, if by nature you mean the landscape unaltered by humans then you missed the boat in Australia by some 50000 years.

I think I made it fairly clear I used nature to point to that outside the work of human minds, yeah it’s philosophy, exploration that way

So someone shut in a room using tech to explore or monitor to deep sea environment or rainforests, where do they fall on the spectrum?

5G obviously, since that’s where the connectivity is up to

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:36:01
From: transition
ID: 1909887
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


transition said:

dv said:

Of course people use words to mean different things and while I think there is no fundamental dichotomy between human-rrlated and general features of the universe, if by nature you mean the landscape unaltered by humans then you missed the boat in Australia by some 50000 years.

I think I made it fairly clear I used nature to point to that outside the work of human minds, yeah it’s philosophy, exploration that way

So someone shut in a room using tech to explore or monitor to deep sea environment or rainforests, where do they fall on the spectrum?

dunno, is there much fish and animals left for the spectrum example to study, they might love science so much as to be happy to do more science on less

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:37:24
From: dv
ID: 1909889
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:


dv said:

transition said:

I think I made it fairly clear I used nature to point to that outside the work of human minds, yeah it’s philosophy, exploration that way

So someone shut in a room using tech to explore or monitor to deep sea environment or rainforests, where do they fall on the spectrum?

dunno, is there much fish and animals left for the spectrum example to study, they might love science so much as to be happy to do more science on less

I think you have a somewhat more pessimistic view of the state of biodiversity in 2100 than I do.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:38:48
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1909891
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


transition said:

dv said:

So someone shut in a room using tech to explore or monitor to deep sea environment or rainforests, where do they fall on the spectrum?

dunno, is there much fish and animals left for the spectrum example to study, they might love science so much as to be happy to do more science on less

I think you have a somewhat more pessimistic view of the state of biodiversity in 2100 than I do.

Cattle, sheep, chickens and pigs as far as the eye can see?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 16:38:57
From: transition
ID: 1909892
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

dv said:


transition said:

dv said:

So someone shut in a room using tech to explore or monitor to deep sea environment or rainforests, where do they fall on the spectrum?

dunno, is there much fish and animals left for the spectrum example to study, they might love science so much as to be happy to do more science on less

I think you have a somewhat more pessimistic view of the state of biodiversity in 2100 than I do.

no not necessarily, I more used it for the thought exercise, regard the proposition of science substituting for nature

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 17:45:10
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909907
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

PermeateFree said:


Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:08:10
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1909914
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


PermeateFree said:

Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:29:49
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909921
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:33:34
From: transition
ID: 1909925
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

The Rev Dodgson said:


roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

assume rb means not conscious of, in response to the proposition nature IS science

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:34:20
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909926
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

catch up to what?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:35:37
From: transition
ID: 1909927
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

catch up to what?

structure explaining structure I guess, representations

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:58:52
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1909938
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

Sigh, of course not all. When did “quite a lot” come to mean “all”?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 18:58:59
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909939
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’d say that science knows quite a lot of nature.

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

catch up to what?

Look around you. Science has been used to destroy the very nature we depend upon. Only now are we playing catch up on what we ignored and neglected.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:01:04
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909941
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

catch up to what?

Look around you. Science has been used to destroy the very nature we depend upon. Only now are we playing catch up on what we ignored and neglected.

seems to be a different argument.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:05:05
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909943
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

catch up to what?

Look around you. Science has been used to destroy the very nature we depend upon. Only now are we playing catch up on what we ignored and neglected.

seems to be a different argument.

It is the one we have been afraid to approach for too long.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:13:56
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909945
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Not all. Catch up is what science is playing.

catch up to what?

Look around you. Science has been used to destroy the very nature we depend upon. Only now are we playing catch up on what we ignored and neglected.

Personally I think it has done far more good than bad.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:26:56
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909951
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

catch up to what?

Look around you. Science has been used to destroy the very nature we depend upon. Only now are we playing catch up on what we ignored and neglected.

Personally I think it has done far more good than bad.

Please quote all the good?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:28:55
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909954
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Look around you. Science has been used to destroy the very nature we depend upon. Only now are we playing catch up on what we ignored and neglected.

Personally I think it has done far more good than bad.

Please quote all the good?

really? I’ll quote one, vaccines.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:41:01
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909957
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Personally I think it has done far more good than bad.

Please quote all the good?

really? I’ll quote one, vaccines.

Vaccines save lives this is good yes. Vaccines however don’t increase the awareness of our place in nature. They really only allow us greater capacity to dominate and desertify the planet.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:42:05
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909959
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Please quote all the good?

really? I’ll quote one, vaccines.

Vaccines save lives this is good yes. Vaccines however don’t increase the awareness of our place in nature. They really only allow us greater capacity to dominate and desertify the planet.

You got vaccinated.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:44:00
From: roughbarked
ID: 1909960
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

really? I’ll quote one, vaccines.

Vaccines save lives this is good yes. Vaccines however don’t increase the awareness of our place in nature. They really only allow us greater capacity to dominate and desertify the planet.

You got vaccinated.

Yes I did. I do live in the same world.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:53:53
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1909963
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Please quote all the good?

really? I’ll quote one, vaccines.

Vaccines save lives this is good yes. Vaccines however don’t increase the awareness of our place in nature. They really only allow us greater capacity to dominate and desertify the planet.

having kids does that as well.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 19:57:57
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1909964
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

All mimsy were the borogoves,

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 21:42:39
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1910011
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

transition said:

be halfway there possibly, something of of social constructionist paradise really, or perhaps more a dystopia, who knows

maybe it’s the end days, the end days of nature, the human conception of the world evolved, the way people experience it will be compressed down to the more immediate experience, history will largely be abandoned, arguably culture might be abandoned

the contemporists will rule

maybe it will eventuate that only the previous hour matters, or previous day, stretch that to a week or year, whatever fluidity that way is convenient, or expedient, give it light regard, fleeting, transient maybe

whatever detachment, to that end

but who rules the parallel worlds that are, into the future, what was made so and what was made not, made so by what was made not, and who might be left to consider what is displaced by what is, now, but further what might be completely vanished, vanished from consciousness, and what consciousness might be vanished

what consciousness might be banished, and the remaining converge

is it a no-place waiting, when there is no nature outside of science, when science entirely substitutes for nature, if it did

I can see a possibility in future when science substitutes for nature.

There are already a few signs of heading that way.

1. Computational fluid dynamics as a mathematical model

It’s a proven mathematical theorem that the mathematics of computational fluid dynamics (CFD) cannot accurately model natural fluid movement.

At first, the CFD was run parallel to real fluid measurements to ascertain the errors in CFD.

But then, as time progressed, people started accepting results from CFD as face value correct, even though everyone knows that they aren’t. In another generation, people will forget that the computed results are always wrong, and start treating computed results as definitively correct, beyond need of checking.

There are other similar cases that don’t involve computers, but do involve formal analogies. For instance using a fluid flow tank as a simulation of the horizon of a black hole, and looking to see whether an analogy of Hawking Radiation can be seen in the fluid flow.

To put it another way, where a model of reality is wrongly taken as an exact representation of nature itself.

You want some other examples? String theory is a hypothesis, a model of nature that is probably not correct. But it is still scientifically studied as if it was correct. Ditto f(x) gravity is a probably incorrect model of dark matter. But it is scientifically studied as if it was correct.

To put it another way. We end up scientifically studying models of nature that are not correct, treating them as if they are correct.

2. Virtual reality

When in a virtual reality situation, the mind is challenged to make sense of the virtual reality.

Pretty soon, we’ll be making multiple layers of virtual reality where a layer of virtual reality sits within another layer. Blurring the boundary between reality (nature) and virtual reality.

A non-scientific example is the novel Enders Game where the participants think that they’re playing a virtual world but are instead playing in the real world.

What we end up is a loss of context where we don’t know which reality is virtual and which is nature.

> it will be compressed down to the more immediate experience, history will largely be abandoned, arguably culture might be abandoned

That fits with the virtual reality scenario.

3. Model making + virtual reality.

> but who rules the parallel worlds that are, into the future, what was made so and what was made not, made so by what was made not, and who might be left to consider what is displaced by what is, now, but further what might be completely vanished, vanished from consciousness, and what consciousness might be vanished. What consciousness might be banished, and the remaining converge

Are you thinking in terms of “The Matrix” movie. Where human consciousness of nature has vanished. And asking “who rules the matrix”? In the movie the answer is clear, the machines rule.

In real life, however, the answer is not so clear. It may be that nobody rules. Since the ability to rule dies as individual humans (or machines) die without passing on all their knowledge.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/07/2022 22:56:21
From: roughbarked
ID: 1910019
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

really? I’ll quote one, vaccines.

Vaccines save lives this is good yes. Vaccines however don’t increase the awareness of our place in nature. They really only allow us greater capacity to dominate and desertify the planet.

having kids does that as well.

It does.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2022 06:47:47
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1910068
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

well that’s a bit unfair we mean we did go outside 10 years ago and enjoy a bit of this

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2022 06:49:56
From: roughbarked
ID: 1910069
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Nature IS science. Animal, Vegetable and Minerals are various parts of Nature. Nature does not revolve around people, people are just a part of nature and can be classified scientifically. Science measures and interprets nature and was constructed by people in order to understand nature.

Yet still, science doesn’t know nature.

well that’s a bit unfair we mean we did go outside 10 years ago and enjoy a bit of this


:)

Reply Quote

Date: 19/07/2022 03:57:24
From: transition
ID: 1910486
Subject: re: when science substitutes for nature

haved me a thought while had me hand in a packet chips here

maybe there’s a tradeoff with humans, you get cultural receptivity and the cost is nature blindness, related maybe is instinct blindness

big brain with capacity for abstraction

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