Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.
Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
OK. For the real news try:
mollwollfumble said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
OK. For the real news try:
So first thing. break the thread.
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
Free Ukraine from Terrorist attacks.
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Australia should be supporting them with boots on the ground
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
DFTT has been a catchcry on these forums (fora?) since the days of sissyphus; even those making the plea then didn’t take any notice of it. We don’t seem to learn anything, so why expect anyone to do it now?
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Sound logic.
roughbarked said:
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Sound logic.
Let’s send our military there
btm said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
DFTT has been a catchcry on these forums (fora?) since the days of sissyphus; even those making the plea then didn’t take any notice of it. We don’t seem to learn anything, so why expect anyone to do it now?
What discrete fourier transforms have got to do with any of this is beyond my ken.
btm said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
DFTT has been a catchcry on these forums (fora?) since the days of sissyphus; even those making the plea then didn’t take any notice of it. We don’t seem to learn anything, so why expect anyone to do it now?
Hope springs eternal
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Makes sense, hit them while they are hungry, cold and have low morale.
btm said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
DFTT has been a catchcry on these forums (fora?) since the days of sissyphus; even those making the plea then didn’t take any notice of it. We don’t seem to learn anything, so why expect anyone to do it now?
:)
roughbarked said:
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Sound logic.
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Sound logic.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the WWII Ukes.
They had a choice between Hitler & Stalin.
It wasn’t really even a choice.
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
Looks like a Borg directive.
It’s a slippery slope.
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
Looks like a Borg directive.
It’s a slippery slope.
rofl
Peak Warming Man said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
Probably still a long way to go before Putin and his goons are defeated, but “liberation” seems an appropriate theme at this stage.Please try to keep Ukraine posts in this thread and out of the threads of Putin’s friend.
I can only reiterate Bubblecar’s plea. Stop using the fascist thread. Start using the liberationist thread.
Looks like a Borg directive.
It’s a slippery slope.
He’s already been in and shat all over it.
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
Kingy said:
If the Ukes make a big push south into Melitopol, it will cut off all access to Crimea and the West. The ruskies will have to withdraw or get a flogging in battle with no logistics support.
Sound logic.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the WWII Ukes.
They had a choice between Hitler & Stalin.
In for a pound
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, were carried out in German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, or the UPA, with the support of parts of the local Ukrainian population against the Polish minority in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, parts of Polesia and Lublin region from 1943 to 1945. The peak of the massacres took place in July and August
wookiemeister said:
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:Sound logic.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for the WWII Ukes.
They had a choice between Hitler & Stalin.
In for a pennyIn for a pound
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, were carried out in German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, or the UPA, with the support of parts of the local Ukrainian population against the Polish minority in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, parts of Polesia and Lublin region from 1943 to 1945. The peak of the massacres took place in July and August
Given the choice they killed the easy targets – not armed men
This isn’t the second world war. It is the attempt to avoid a third incidence.
The frequency of wook’s posts and threads is correlated with how badly the war is going for the Russians.
We can expect he’ll be creating ten posts a minute round about Feb 2023.
dv said:
The frequency of wook’s posts and threads is correlated with how badly the war is going for the Russians.We can expect he’ll be creating ten posts a minute round about Feb 2023.
✅
dv said:
The frequency of wook’s posts and threads is correlated with how badly the war is going for the Russians.We can expect he’ll be creating ten posts a minute round about Feb 2023.
I’m fixing up my house
When I have time I crawl through the broken land of critical thought launching raids on enemy columns of illogical thought.
The head of football’s world governing body, Fifa, issued a plea on Tuesday for a ceasefire in the war in Ukraine for the duration of the World Cup, calling for all sides to use the tournament as a “positive trigger” to work towards a resolution.Gianni Infantino, speaking during a lunch with leaders of the G20 major economies on the Indonesian island of Bali, said the month-long World Cup, which starts in Qatar on Sunday, offered a unique platform for peace. Fifa’s president said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/nov/15/russia-ukraine-war-live-news-updates-kherson-victory-marks-beginning-of-end-of-russian-war-zelenskiy-says
Gianni sound like he’ running around with a few roos loose in the top paddock.
What could Russia offer Ukraine at this point? The Ukrainians are getting all their own territory back soon enough. Maybe Russia could offer them parts of Belgorod Oblast as long as they go easy on them during winter.
dv said:
The head of football’s world governing body, Fifa, issued a plea on Tuesday for a ceasefire in the war in Ukraine for the duration of the World Cup, calling for all sides to use the tournament as a “positive trigger” to work towards a resolution.Gianni Infantino, speaking during a lunch with leaders of the G20 major economies on the Indonesian island of Bali, said the month-long World Cup, which starts in Qatar on Sunday, offered a unique platform for peace. Fifa’s president said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/nov/15/russia-ukraine-war-live-news-updates-kherson-victory-marks-beginning-of-end-of-russian-war-zelenskiy-says
Gianni sound like he’ running around with a few roos loose in the top paddock.
What could Russia offer Ukraine at this point? The Ukrainians are getting all their own territory back soon enough. Maybe Russia could offer them parts of Belgorod Oblast as long as they go easy on them during winter.
They could go home and string Putin up?
Ukraine have captured so much Russian gear in the last couple of months, their biggest weapon supply headache is the lack of Russian regular maintenance on all that kit.
party_pants said:
Ukraine have captured so much Russian gear in the last couple of months, their biggest weapon supply headache is the lack of Russian regular maintenance on all that kit.
Could be nice earner for someone
party_pants said:
Ukraine have captured so much Russian gear in the last couple of months, their biggest weapon supply headache is the lack of Russian regular maintenance on all that kit.
I did see a stat on that the other day.. was something along the lines of Russia is the single largest supplier of military equipment to the Ukrainian armed forces.
According to Polish media, two stray Russian rockets landed in Polish territory killing two people. The rockets reportedly landed in the Polish town of Przewodów, near the border with Ukraine. These reports have not yet been independently confirmed by ABC News.
dv said:
According to Polish media, two stray Russian rockets landed in Polish territory killing two people. The rockets reportedly landed in the Polish town of Przewodów, near the border with Ukraine. These reports have not yet been independently confirmed by ABC News.
roughbarked said:
dv said:
According to Polish media, two stray Russian rockets landed in Polish territory killing two people. The rockets reportedly landed in the Polish town of Przewodów, near the border with Ukraine. These reports have not yet been independently confirmed by ABC News.
“stray”
roughbarked said:
dv said:
According to Polish media, two stray Russian rockets landed in Polish territory killing two people. The rockets reportedly landed in the Polish town of Przewodów, near the border with Ukraine. These reports have not yet been independently confirmed by ABC News.
“Landed”?
Leaving a hole in the ground large enough to bury PWM’S Triton isn’t “landing”.
In other news, Russia just used up another 100 cruise missiles from their dwindling stock.
Dark Orange said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:
According to Polish media, two stray Russian rockets landed in Polish territory killing two people. The rockets reportedly landed in the Polish town of Przewodów, near the border with Ukraine. These reports have not yet been independently confirmed by ABC News.“Landed”?
Leaving a hole in the ground large enough to bury PWM’S Triton isn’t “landing”.In other news, Russia just used up another 100 cruise missiles from their dwindling stock.
Two independent sources calculate they only have ~120 Iskander cruise missiles left, so I can’t see them using them much from now on.
Dark Orange said:
Dark Orange said:
roughbarked said:“Landed”?
Leaving a hole in the ground large enough to bury PWM’S Triton isn’t “landing”.In other news, Russia just used up another 100 cruise missiles from their dwindling stock.
Two independent sources calculate they only have ~120 Iskander cruise missiles left, so I can’t see them using them much from now on.
Novy God (Russian new year) is Jan 14. They might save some for then.
Dark Orange said:
Dark Orange said:
roughbarked said:“Landed”?
Leaving a hole in the ground large enough to bury PWM’S Triton isn’t “landing”.In other news, Russia just used up another 100 cruise missiles from their dwindling stock.
Two independent sources calculate they only have ~120 Iskander cruise missiles left, so I can’t see them using them much from now on.
Ah well they’ve still got the nukes
dv said:
Dark Orange said:
Dark Orange said:“Landed”?
Leaving a hole in the ground large enough to bury PWM’S Triton isn’t “landing”.In other news, Russia just used up another 100 cruise missiles from their dwindling stock.
Two independent sources calculate they only have ~120 Iskander cruise missiles left, so I can’t see them using them much from now on.
Ah well they’ve still got the nukes
fk cn
Poland blast ‘unlikely’ to have been fired from Russia: Joe Biden
Here’s exactly what Joe Biden said at his press conference where he made comments about the missiles’ lines of trajectory.
SCIENCE said:
fk cnPoland blast ‘unlikely’ to have been fired from Russia: Joe Biden
Here’s exactly what Joe Biden said at his press conference where he made comments about the missiles’ lines of trajectory.
“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
fk cnPoland blast ‘unlikely’ to have been fired from Russia: Joe Biden
Here’s exactly what Joe Biden said at his press conference where he made comments about the missiles’ lines of trajectory.
“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogue
How will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
roughbarked said:
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
fk cnPoland blast ‘unlikely’ to have been fired from Russia: Joe Biden
Here’s exactly what Joe Biden said at his press conference where he made comments about the missiles’ lines of trajectory.
“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
PermeateFree said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
Exactly.
roughbarked said:
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
fk cnPoland blast ‘unlikely’ to have been fired from Russia: Joe Biden
Here’s exactly what Joe Biden said at his press conference where he made comments about the missiles’ lines of trajectory.
“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
SAMs and AtA usually have a self destruct timer. they are to stop this very thing happening.
Bogsnorkler said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
SAMs and AtA usually have a self destruct timer. they are to stop this very thing happening.
In Russia we do things differently
Cymek said:
Bogsnorkler said:
roughbarked said:“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
SAMs and AtA usually have a self destruct timer. they are to stop this very thing happening.
In Russia we do things differently
Joe is saying the boffins think that they didn’t come from Russia.
Peak Warming Man said:
Cymek said:
Bogsnorkler said:SAMs and AtA usually have a self destruct timer. they are to stop this very thing happening.
In Russia we do things differently
Joe is saying the boffins think that they didn’t come from Russia.
Reminds me of MH17.
roughbarked said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Cymek said:In Russia we do things differently
Joe is saying the boffins think that they didn’t come from Russia.
Reminds me of MH17.
passing the buk
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:
roughbarked said:“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
Exactly.
why not, people start wars over much less
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
Exactly.
Speaking as someone who, in an early exercise on navigational charts, managed to put the final position of a 5,300 ton destroyer escort as being in a paddock just a little bit west of Ballarat, i can see how such things might happen.
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
Exactly.
Speaking as someone who, in an early exercise on navigational charts, managed to put the final position of a 5,300 ton destroyer escort as being in a paddock just a little bit west of Ballarat, i can see how such things might happen.
Depending on the professionality of the missile launchers it could have been deliberate to see what happens
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
Exactly.
Speaking as someone who, in an early exercise on navigational charts, managed to put the final position of a 5,300 ton destroyer escort as being in a paddock just a little bit west of Ballarat, i can see how such things might happen.
Indeed.
Does anyone remember the US Cruiser that had to be towed back to port after some galoot asked the computer to divide by zero?
roughbarked said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Cymek said:In Russia we do things differently
Joe is saying the boffins think that they didn’t come from Russia.
Reminds me of MH17.
That was just some dickhead who was bored. ‘Never get to fire one of these things. Screw it, next plane that comes over, i’m pushing the button.’
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:Also why start WWIII over a navigational error.
Exactly.
Speaking as someone who, in an early exercise on navigational charts, managed to put the final position of a 5,300 ton destroyer escort as being in a paddock just a little bit west of Ballarat, i can see how such things might happen.
When Spocky & I were driving around Fraser Island about a year ago, I did notice that the GPS in the car occasionally had us about a kilometre out in Moreton Bay.
I had the windows up and I didn’t see any water coming in, so I suspected the GPS map was incorrect. Though we did mention for such trips it might be an idea to get a good snorkel for the Pajero.
roughbarked said:
dv said:
SCIENCE said:
fk cnPoland blast ‘unlikely’ to have been fired from Russia: Joe Biden
Here’s exactly what Joe Biden said at his press conference where he made comments about the missiles’ lines of trajectory.
“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
“Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.”
What?
dv said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:“There is preliminary information that contests that. I don’t want to say that til we completely investigate, but it’s unlikely in the lines of the trajectory that it was fired from Russia but we’ll see.”
“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
“Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.”
What?
end user certificates.
Bogsnorkler said:
dv said:
roughbarked said:“There’s pretty good evidence that because Russia has been running low on dedicated land-attack missiles they have actually been repurposing their own S-300s from an air-defence role into a land-attack role,” Dr Hellyer said.
“At the moment, it’s probably too premature to speculate along the lines of whether this is a deliberate Russian provocation, let alone whether this is a Russian missile that’s gone off course.”
Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.
But even then, it may not tell the whole story.
Hardware may be captured by one side and put into service by the other, Dr Hellyer said.
“But at some level, it’s irrelevant,” he said.
“A country has every right to defend itself. So even if it’s a rogue Ukrainian air-defence missile, they have every right to be defending themselves.
“So ultimately, it still comes down on Putin.”
Do missiles go rogueHow will NATO response to Poland missile blast? It depends on where it came from
“Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.”
What?
end user certificates.
But, you only need EUCs if you sell the items on to someone else. The Russians wouldn’t have/issue EUCs for their own stocks of the things.
captain_spalding said:
Bogsnorkler said:
dv said:“Experts should be able to tell who the missile belongs to based on the serial number and where it was manufactured.”
What?
end user certificates.
But, you only need EUCs if you sell the items on to someone else. The Russians wouldn’t have/issue EUCs for their own stocks of the things.
then they would know they were russian then.
Bogsnorkler said:
captain_spalding said:
Bogsnorkler said:end user certificates.
But, you only need EUCs if you sell the items on to someone else. The Russians wouldn’t have/issue EUCs for their own stocks of the things.
then they would know they were russian then.
Yeah, if it’s not on an EUC, then it’s probably Russian.
But EUCs, like most official documents, can be created and bought and sold to suit your needs, if you know the right people and have the money. What it says on an EUC is by no means where it ended up. And EUCs can be avoided altogether, if two governments discreetly collude.
captain_spalding said:
Bogsnorkler said:
captain_spalding said:But, you only need EUCs if you sell the items on to someone else. The Russians wouldn’t have/issue EUCs for their own stocks of the things.
then they would know they were russian then.
Yeah, if it’s not on an EUC, then it’s probably Russian.
But EUCs, like most official documents, can be created and bought and sold to suit your needs, if you know the right people and have the money. What it says on an EUC is by no means where it ended up. And EUCs can be avoided altogether, if two governments discreetly collude.
It has been done before.
captain_spalding said:
Bogsnorkler said:
captain_spalding said:But, you only need EUCs if you sell the items on to someone else. The Russians wouldn’t have/issue EUCs for their own stocks of the things.
then they would know they were russian then.
Yeah, if it’s not on an EUC, then it’s probably Russian.
But EUCs, like most official documents, can be created and bought and sold to suit your needs, if you know the right people and have the money. What it says on an EUC is by no means where it ended up. And EUCs can be avoided altogether, if two governments discreetly collude.
well, we really have only two antagonists in this fight. it was either russian and fired by russians, or russian fired by Ukrainians. or Ukrainian fired by Ukrainians.
Bogsnorkler said:
captain_spalding said:
Bogsnorkler said:then they would know they were russian then.
Yeah, if it’s not on an EUC, then it’s probably Russian.
But EUCs, like most official documents, can be created and bought and sold to suit your needs, if you know the right people and have the money. What it says on an EUC is by no means where it ended up. And EUCs can be avoided altogether, if two governments discreetly collude.
well, we really have only two antagonists in this fight. it was either russian and fired by russians, or russian fired by Ukrainians. or Ukrainian fired by Ukrainians.
Or Belarussian…
dv said:
Bogsnorkler said:
captain_spalding said:Yeah, if it’s not on an EUC, then it’s probably Russian.
But EUCs, like most official documents, can be created and bought and sold to suit your needs, if you know the right people and have the money. What it says on an EUC is by no means where it ended up. And EUCs can be avoided altogether, if two governments discreetly collude.
well, we really have only two antagonists in this fight. it was either russian and fired by russians, or russian fired by Ukrainians. or Ukrainian fired by Ukrainians.
Or Belarussian…
There is that possibility..
What sort of redundancy do power generation facilities, water treatment, etc have built into them.
Seems a lot more effort than you’d think was required to cripple them
A Russian colonel with close ties to Vladimir Putin, and who was involved in this autumn’s mass recruitment drive for the army, has been found dead in his office.
Vadim Boyko, 44, had multiple bullet wounds when a junior officer found him in the Makarov Pacific Higher Naval School in the far eastern city of Vladivostok, where he was deputy director.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/vadim-boyko-mystery-as-putins-military-crony-found-shot-dead/
dv said:
A Russian colonel with close ties to Vladimir Putin, and who was involved in this autumn’s mass recruitment drive for the army, has been found dead in his office.
Vadim Boyko, 44, had multiple bullet wounds when a junior officer found him in the Makarov Pacific Higher Naval School in the far eastern city of Vladivostok, where he was deputy director.https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/vadim-boyko-mystery-as-putins-military-crony-found-shot-dead/
“Is clear-cut case of suicide, comrade. Poor man so ashamed of his misdeeds that he shoot himself multiple times to atone for crimes. Case closed.’
captain_spalding said:
dv said:A Russian colonel with close ties to Vladimir Putin, and who was involved in this autumn’s mass recruitment drive for the army, has been found dead in his office.
Vadim Boyko, 44, had multiple bullet wounds when a junior officer found him in the Makarov Pacific Higher Naval School in the far eastern city of Vladivostok, where he was deputy director.https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/vadim-boyko-mystery-as-putins-military-crony-found-shot-dead/
“Is clear-cut case of suicide, comrade. Poor man so ashamed of his misdeeds that he shoot himself multiple times to atone for crimes. Case closed.’
So all shots before the fatal one were insufficient to stop him doing it again and again plus he aimed at the wrong body part many times.
Cymek said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:A Russian colonel with close ties to Vladimir Putin, and who was involved in this autumn’s mass recruitment drive for the army, has been found dead in his office.
Vadim Boyko, 44, had multiple bullet wounds when a junior officer found him in the Makarov Pacific Higher Naval School in the far eastern city of Vladivostok, where he was deputy director.https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/vadim-boyko-mystery-as-putins-military-crony-found-shot-dead/
“Is clear-cut case of suicide, comrade. Poor man so ashamed of his misdeeds that he shoot himself multiple times to atone for crimes. Case closed.’
So all shots before the fatal one were insufficient to stop him doing it again and again plus he aimed at the wrong body part many times.
“Yes. Is old Russian tradition. Sinner demonstrates sorrow for wrong-doing by prolonging suffering before fatal wound. Many, many instances of this. Also, AK not most accurate rifle around, you know. NO-ONE ELSE INVOLVED. No more questions, comrade.”
so the cause of the explosions in Poland was actually the dissolution of the СССР sorry we mean the movement of modern hominids out of Africa yeah
Angry families say Russian conscripts thrown to front line unprepared
By Robyn Dixon and Natalia Abbakumova
November 20, 2022 at 4:30 p.m. EST
Irina Sokolova’s husband, a Russian soldier mobilized to fight in Ukraine, called her from a forest there last month, sobbing, almost broken.
“They are lying on television,” he wept, referring to the state television propagandists who play down Russian failures and portray a do-or-die war for Russia’s survival against the United States and its allies.
Sokolova, 37, cried for him too, and for their nearly year-old baby son, she said in a telephone interview from her home in Voronezh, in western Russia.
Sokolova is among dozens of soldier’s spouses and other relatives who are voicing remarkably public — and risky — anger and fear over the terrible conditions that new conscripts have faced on the front lines of Russia’s war in Ukraine.
The soldiers’ relatives, mostly people who would normally stay out of politics, are tempting the wrath of the Kremlin by posting videos online and in Russian independent media, and even speaking to foreign journalists. They say that mobilized soldiers were deployed into battle with little training, poor equipment and often no clear orders. Many are exhausted and confused, according to their families. Some wander lost in the woods for days. Others refuse to fight.
“Of course he had no idea how terrible it would be there,” Sokolova told The Washington Post. “We watch our federal TV channels and they say that everything is perfect.”
The relatives typically do not criticize President Vladimir Putin or even the war, but their videos have exposed the rock-bottom morale of many conscripts, as Russia tries to surmount its recent losses by throwing a claimed 318,000 reinforcements into battle.
Yana, a transport worker from St. Petersburg, was a fervent pro-war patriot until her partner was mobilized.
In a phone interview, Yana confirmed video accounts by other military spouses that the men had to buy their own warm uniforms and boots and had little training. In Ukraine, they were given no food or water.
“They do not have any orders and they do not have any tasks,” she said. “I spoke to my husband yesterday and he said that they have no clue what to do. They were just abandoned and they have lost all trust, all faith in the authorities.”
On the videos, wives recite lists of grievances in tremulous voices. Conscripts pose in body armor that barely covers their ribs or film themselves in Ukrainian forests, listing their dead and complaining their officers are nowhere to be seen.
Details in the videos could not be independently verified but are consistent with accounts that family members provided in interviews with The Post, and with reports by independent Russian media, such as ASTRA, which exposed seven basement prisons for deserters in Luhansk.
Sokolova’s husband was mobilized to fight in the 252nd Motorized Rifle Regiment on Sept. 22. He told her that he received no military training “and by Sept. 26, he was already in Ukraine,” she said.
He phoned late last month, having barely survived a major battle in which his unit was surrounded and many were killed. He and two others escaped without their backpacks and warm gear but were lost and ended up wandering in a forest.
“They were thrown in into the fire, so to speak, on the very first front line, but they’re not military men. They don’t know how to fight. They cannot do this,” Sokolova said, adding that her husband was in severe pain with pancreatitis. “I feel how awful it is for him there,” she said. “My heart is being torn apart.”
Families of other men mobilized to fight in the regiment said their loved ones were sent to the front line near Svatove, a small city in the Luhansk region, on their first day in Ukraine and given one shovel between 30 men to dig trenches. Speaking in a joint video appeal first sent to independent Russian media Vyorstka, they said the commanders “ran away,” leaving the men to face three days of heavy shelling.
Several dozen mobilized soldiers from the regiment walked some 100 miles to Milove, on the Russian border, and demanded to return to their base near Voronezh, according to their video account on Nov. 3.
They were taken briefly to nearby Valuyki in Russia, but their request was ignored. “We wrote applications. We wrote reports. We did everything, but no one listens to us. Nobody wants to hear us,” a soldier, Konstantin Voropayev, said in the video, in which he also requested legal help.
Sokolova’s husband called her in a panic the same day from Valuyki, saying he and others were being sent right back into battle.
On Oct. 28, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu told Putin that early problems equipping and training mobilized soldiers were resolved.
Military analyst Konrad Muzyka, of Poland-based Rochan Consulting, wrote in a recent analysis that despite the “abysmal morale” of conscripts the sheer volume of them could help Russia on the battlefield.
As the videos proliferate, Russian authorities appear to be losing patience. One mobilized soldier, Alexander Leshkov, faces up to 15 years in prison after swearing at an officer in a video, pushing him, and griping about the unit’s low-grade flak jackets, said his lawyer, Henri Tsiskarishvili.
“This is a profanation, an imitation of shooting, an imitation of exercises, an imitation of a formation,” Leshkov raged.
Yana and her husband, who have a 4-year-old son, were married with 43 other couples right before the men were sent to war. The Post agreed not to use her full name to shield her from arrest and prosecution.
In the couple’s apartment, the television was always on, pouring out the Kremlin’s line that Russia is fighting the United States, not Ukraine. “We don’t know anything else,” Yana said. “We are so used to believing in what we are told.”
But after her husband was drafted, she gave the television away because it was making her “aggressive.” She said she fears for her husband’s life but said she does not blame Putin, “because he is a smart person.”
“We are absolutely confused, at a loss, and we feel abandoned,” she said. “We’re crying from morning till night.”
Andrei Kolesnikov, an analyst with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said the Kremlin’s propaganda is working — for now — with the video protests not directed at Putin, or even at the war.
“Putin wants people to share responsibility for the war with him,” Kolesnikov said. “He wants their bodies and lives to be sacrificed on the altar of the struggle against NATO, the West, and global evil. This strategy of glorifying cannon fodder and heroizing death is risky, in a more-or-less modernized society which wasn’t ready to be involved physically in the trenches.”
After repeated military setbacks and high casualties, support for the war is waning. Levada Center independent pollster reported on Nov. 1 that 57 percent of Russians want peace talks while 36 percent want to keep fighting.
Sokolova said that the relatives of mobilized men “realize what is going on, but people whose relatives were not mobilized see the world through rose-colored glasses. They have no idea what’s going on, and they’re not interested.”
Yana told her son that his father is a superhero, fighting evil. The fairy tale matches Russia’s imperialist propaganda, yet deep down, it does not ring true. At heart, Yana said she is terrified her husband will never phone again and her son will grow up with no father.
“I am just an ordinary woman and I want to live in peace,” she said. “That’s all I want.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/20/russia-military-families-conscripts-ukraine/?
Like i’ve said before, Russian methods never change.
Round ‘em up, shove ‘em in to the front lines.
If you push enough of them forward, a few are bound to get through. Don’t worry about losses, there’s more in the pipeline.
Not enough weapons? They can take them from the dead. There’ll be plenty of them.
Russian recruits camped out in snow with little shelter
Russia’s deployment of thousands of soldiers to the battlefields of Ukraine is generating dissent and protest on the front lines — and their complaints are being amplified by their wives and mothers back home.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/11/23/russia-mothers-soldiers-complaints-pleitgen-dnt-ebof-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/russia-ukraine-military-conflict/
The European Union is preparing a ninth package of sanctions against Russia following Moscow’s latest barrage of strikes on Ukraine, President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen said Thursday.
“We are working hard to hit Russia where it hurts to blunt even further its capacity to wage war on Ukraine and I can announce today that we are working full speed on a ninth sanctions package,” von der Leyen told a news conference in Espoo, Finland.
Von der Leyen added she was “confident that we will very soon approve a global price cap on Russian oil with the G7 and other major partners,” after the West’s biggest economies agreed in September to impose a cap to reduce Moscow’s ability to fund its war.
“We will not rest until Ukraine has prevailed over Putin and his unlawful and barbaric war,” she continued.
Western sanctions are taking their toll on Russia, particularly as the cold winter months begin.
“The mood in Moscow and the country is now extremely gloomy, quiet, intimidated, and hopeless,” 34-year-old Lisa, who declined to give her last name and said she was a film producer, told CNN.
“The planning horizon is as low as ever. People have no idea what might happen tomorrow or in a year,” she added.
While the shelves in most stores remain well stocked, Western products are becoming increasingly scarce and very expensive, further driving prices that are already hammering many Russian households.
Western sanctions have also sharply curtailed Russia’s ability to replenish the munitions it is using in Ukraine, according to analysis from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence last month.
—-
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-11-24-22/index.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/russian-forces-steal-priceless-ukrainian-artwork-during-occupation-of-kherson
Russian forces steal priceless Ukrainian artwork during occupation of Kherson
Rise of Russia Hardliners Sows Fear In Putin’s Elite
Kremlin tolerance of outspoken calls for ‘Stalinist’ measures sows alarm among insiders.
9 November 2022 at 05:09 GMT+11
The rise of outspoken hardliners in the Kremlin is alarming insiders fearful the Russian president will heed their calls for even more confrontation abroad and sweeping repression at home.
Senior business executives and government officials have watched with growing worry as players they once considered marginal like Yevgeny Prigozhin, known for his Wagner mercenary company and recruiting of prison inmates to fight in Ukraine, have become the public forces behind Vladimir Putin’s push to step up his increasingly all-encompassing war effort.
Prigozhin’s public calls for “urgent Stalinist repressions” against business tycoons who aren’t sufficiently enthusiastic about supporting the war effort have led some rich Russians to fear for their own safety and that of their families, they said. Prigozhin’s open attacks on top military commanders – some of whom have been subsequently removed – and the prominent Putin ally who is governor of St. Petersburg, have added to worry within the bureaucracy about the Kremlin’s unwillingness or inability to defend its own.
With Kremlin officials now describing the invasion of Ukraine as a “people’s war,” hearkening back to the World War II rhetoric of Josef Stalin, a few insiders even say they fear the purges and arbitrary arrests of the the Soviet dictator’s rule may not be far behind. Amid the call-up of 300,000 reservists, officials furtively asked each other if family members were safe, worried about too openly admitting that they’d sent their military-age children abroad.
One senior official likened the current situation to a military dictatorship but without the military coup that usually precedes it. The dominant emotion now is fear, insiders said. All those interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the risk of reprisal.
The deepening alarm about the outlook so far hasn’t coalesced into anything like internal resistance to Putin’s continuing escalation, according to insiders. Many in the leadership support what they see as an existential fight for Russia’s future and see no alternative but to keep boosting the pressure until Ukraine and its allies in the US and Europe back down. A few officials once thought of as relative liberals, such as Sergei Kiriyenko, Kremlin deputy chief of staff, have emerged as enthusiastic public advocates of the war.
While Putin has said the mobilization is over, at least for the moment, many in the business and bureaucratic elite worry the militarization of the economy and society is only accelerating. The special commission of top government and security official Putin set up to coordinate economic policy to support the defense industry and the army has been compared to Stalin’s war cabinet.
“The state has lost the monopoly on legalized violence and new operators of this former monopoly have appeared,” said Ekaterina Schulmann, a political scientist who left Russia in the early weeks of the war. “It’s strange that Putin is encouraging this.”
Nearly nine months of fighting has only hardened the view among many in the business and economic elite that Putin’s invasion was a catastrophic mistake that will doom the country to isolation and weakness. Even within the government, many quietly oppose the fight but are too terrified to speak out, according to people close to the leadership. Tycoons have sought to stay out of politics, hoping to remain on the Kremlin’s good side and keep factories running. Only a few have left the country and publicly criticized the war.
Putin has no alternative but to rely on aggressive players like Prigozhin and Ramzan Kadyrov, the strongman head of Russia’s Chechnya region who has sent thousands of troops to fight, given the poor performance so far of Russia’s regular military and tepid support for the war in his own government, according to one senior official. Both men have heavily armed forces loyal to them.
“Prigozhin is behaving like a parallel government,” said Andrei Kolesnikov of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “He may be able to compete for power, if not under Putin then after him.”
Known as ‘Putin’s chef’ for his background in the restaurant business in the president’s hometown of St. Petersburg and Kremlin catering contracts, Prigozhin, 61, has been sanctioned by the US and its allies for a range of alleged transgressions, including meddling in US elections and sending mercenaries to Africa and the Middle East. The US Federal Bureau of Investigation put him on its wanted list in 2021 for vote interference.
After years of playing down his links to the Wagner private military contracting company, Prigozhin in late September publicly confirmed he’d founded the group in 2014. On Nov. 4, he opened a glass-and-steel skyscraper in St. Petersburg called the Wagner Center. This week, he sarcastically admitted his role in meddling in US elections, saying it would continue.
He’s shown up in leaked videos from prisons around Russia where he promised inmates the chance of early release if they sign up to fight in Ukraine and last six months at the front. At the same time, he warns they’ll be summarily shot for desertion or attempting to surrender. Prigozhin’s press office declined to confirm he was in the videos, but said the person in them “looked frightfully like” him.
Over the weekend, Prigozhin announced Wagner plans to set up training centers for “militias” in border regions near the war zone. Fighters would come from “local businesses,” which would send a quarter of its male workforce to “the trenches,” he said in a commentary posted on Telegram, promising to fund the preparations himself.
Prigozhin earlier this month, filed a rare complaint with prosecutors against the governor of St. Petersburg, a Putin ally and longtime rival of the tycoon. The Kremlin’s public silence in the case has shocked insiders.
Prigozhin has appeared wearing the Hero of Russia medal, the country’s highest honor, but how frequently he and Putin meet remains unclear. Some Kremlin insiders said Prigozhin now meets with the president more often than before, while others said he’s not a member of the small group of hardliners closest to Putin. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said, “There are lots of rumors about Prigozhin. We don’t have any intention to comment on them.”
Prigozhin said he hasn’t spoken to Putin. He is seen as an ally of the new commander Putin installed to run the Ukraine operation in October, Sergei Surovikin, who was known for his harsh tactics in Syria, where they fought together with Wagner troops.
US intelligence has told President Joe Biden that Prigozhin spoke directly to Putin about the war, countering upbeat reports from the military, according to the Washington Post.
Prigozhin has made common cause with Kadyrov, the Chechen leader, with both at times questioning the skills of the military leadership, especially when Ukraine’s forces were actively retaking territory in September.
Insiders describe the Russian president as increasingly isolated, surrounded by a small group of hardliners and impervious to critical views. With its forces struggling to contain a Ukrainian counteroffensive, the Kremlin has dropped months of trying to insulate the country from the reality of the conflict.
Putin has steadily stepped up the fight since Ukrainian forces began pushing back his troops in large areas over the late summer. So far, his mobilization of reservists, sweeping expansion of missile strikes against civilian infrastructure like power plants behind the lines in Ukraine and hints of possible use of nuclear weapons haven’t succeeded in turning the tide. Ukraine’s advance is continuing, with Russia losing territory Putin claimed to annex in September.
Government technocrats, meanwhile, have been tasked with revising budget and economic plans to reflect the steadily increasing shift of resources to fund the war. They’ve also been assigned to computerize the mobilization process to avoid a repeat of the disorganization and mistakes that plagued the first round. Many officials expect another round to be announced early next year.
“The mood of doom that everything has turned out this way is very strong,” said Tatyana Stanovaya, founder of R Politik, a political consultancy.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-08/rise-of-russia-hardliner-yevgeny-prigozhin-fuels-fear-in-putin-s-elite?
Hmmm… just noticed that article is from 9 November so a bit out of date.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Hmmm… just noticed that article is from 9 November so a bit out of date.
Now you tell us.
A Ukrainian attempt to retake Crimea would be bloody and difficult
And Western support can hardly be relied on
Nov 27th 2022
Vladimir putin hoped to take over Ukraine in ten days. Nine months on, he faces serious problems holding on to the slice of territory he did manage to seize. Momentum is on Ukraine’s side following two counter-offensives, around Kharkiv in the north-east, and Kherson in the south, that were conducted with a minimum of loss and a maximum of triumph.
But those victories now raise the prospect of what would be much more humiliating Russian reverses in the Donbas and Crimea, territory seized by Vladimir Putin in 2014. In an interview published on November 24th, Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, reiterated his aim to “return all lands”. This approach chimes with Ukrainian public opinion, but not necessarily with Western backers. They fear that an operation to retake Crimea, or the Donbas (militarily perhaps an easier proposition), might drive Russia into escalation, perhaps even past the nuclear threshold.
Ukrainian commanders are coy about their next moves. “If we telegraphed our plans on social media and on tv, we’d achieve nothing,” says Mykhailo Zabrodsky, a former commander of Ukraine’s air assault forces, who remains close to the planning process. The lieutenant-general insists an operation to take back Crimea is not only possible, it was something that was being prepared for 2023. When exactly an operation might begin is another question: there are many battles to win first. But history shows, he says, that an occupying force “always finds it difficult to hold on to Crimea”.
Sources in the armed forces say that “nothing” is off the table, including operations against territory seized by Russia before February 24th. Roads leading to Crimea are now within the range of Ukrainian firepower, including by the himars rocket systems that have so dramatically impeded Russian logistics since they were first introduced in the summer. Russian-appointed authorities in Crimea are preparing for a ground attack, ordering the construction of new fortifications and trenches, and declaring emergency threat-levels in several parts of the peninsula. Locals in Dzhankoy report trenches are being built near an airbase that was targeted in August (and, it appears, again a few days ago) in what appear to have been attacks by Ukrainian special forces.
But Ukraine seems likely to focus its firepower elsewhere first. Cutting Mr Putin’s land bridge, the occupied territory linking mainland Russia to Crimea, remains the priority. Russian military planners understand this too, and have devised and manned defensive lines accordingly. A source in military intelligence is confident that Ukraine’s structural advantages, principally its ability to stage highly mobile hit-and-run attacks and break up supply lines, will prevail. “We’ve demonstrated at every stage that our tactics and focus on logistics are correct. We will show it again,” the source says.
The many battles for Crimea over the centuries provide Ukrainian planners with plenty of insights. The largely bloodless Russian 2014 annexation, during which only two Ukrainian soldiers lost their lives, is not a typical example. Military operations in Crimea more usually end with thousands dead: in the last century alone hundreds of thousands have fallen at its gates, primarily in the Russian Civil War and World War II, to say nothing of the vast casualties during the Crimean War of the 1850s. Taking the peninsula has usually required crossing narrow, open strips, or marshlands.
Military experts with intimate knowledge of the peninsula said that the topography should give Ukraine pause for thought. Admiral Mykola Zhibarev, who back in 1992 provoked the break-up of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet by declaring his frigate to be Ukrainian, now says that diplomacy is the most promising route to regaining the contested territory. Andrii Ryzhenko, a retired navy captain who was born in Crimea, says that a successful operation would require a lot of things to go right. “There is a real prospect that things will end in a bloodbath. That is an operation Ukraine does not need.”
Lieutenant-General Zabrodsky insists that Ukraine’s military planners have devised tactics that might work. Ukraine does not intend to enter into a senseless frontal assault on Crimea, he says. There are other “interesting” possibilities for combined arms manoeuvre, using land troops, sea landings and air attacks. Russian naval and air dominance could be thwarted with “asymmetric tricks”. The Ukrainian drone attacks on the Black Sea fleet in late October, damaging the flagship Admiral Makarov, and the destruction of part of the Kerch bridge were examples of Ukraine’s thinking. “We will surprise people—and many times—again.”
Ukraine’s Western backers have refrained from talking down Ukraine’s military ambitions in public. Ukraine likewise insists they have not held back military planners in private either. But gaps appear to be opening up in the rhetoric. America’s top soldier, General Mark Milley, who is on the more cautious end of government opinion in that country, said on November 16th that a Ukrainian victory in Crimea was unlikely to be “happening any time soon”. Ukraine’s military planners understand that America, and the weapons it supplies, are the key to whether it will ever happen at all.
Political leaders in Kyiv privately concede that retaking Donbas and Crimea is more complicated than issuing public slogans. They accept that a large proportion of the population there remain hostile towards Kyiv. The operations in Kharkiv and Kherson, for example, were helped by a network of sympathetic informers. The opposite will be the case in the areas of Donbas held by Russia since 2014, and from where most of those sympathetic to Kyiv have long ago fled or been chased out. An operation to retake Crimea would probably encounter partisan resistance from pro-Russians. It is far from clear that Ukraine could even count on more sympathetic parts of the population, such as the Crimean Tatar community, many of whom have by now accepted Russian rule as a fait accompli.
But Mykola Bielieskov, an analyst at Ukraine’s National Institute for Strategic Studies, says Mr Zelensky is now tied to his promise to return Crimea. Even before the successful counter-offensives in Kharkiv and Kherson, polls showed more than 84% of Ukrainians were against making any territorial concessions to Russia in eventual negotiations; those numbers are now almost certainly higher. That raises the possibility that Ukraine’s war president might be manoeuvring himself into a corner. An attempt to bring Crimea back under Ukrainian rule would be a costly military endeavour—and would cause splits with allies that he cannot afford to alienate.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/11/27/a-ukrainian-attempt-to-retake-crimea-would-be-bloody-and-difficult?
Ukraine needs tanks, and the west should supply them. They could finish off Putin and Russia
In 1941, Churchill said to the US: ‘give us the tools and we will finish the job’. Zelenskiy is saying the same to us – and we should listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/ukraine-tanks-west-putin-russia-churchill
Bubblecar said:
Ukraine needs tanks, and the west should supply them. They could finish off Putin and RussiaIn 1941, Churchill said to the US: ‘give us the tools and we will finish the job’. Zelenskiy is saying the same to us – and we should listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/ukraine-tanks-west-putin-russia-churchill
Nah, a couple crates of ATAKMs is all that’s needed to put the Russians on the ropes.
The Ukes know where the ammo dumps are (just out of Himars range) and taking them off the board would make life very difficult for the Russians.
Dark Orange said:
Bubblecar said:
Ukraine needs tanks, and the west should supply them. They could finish off Putin and RussiaIn 1941, Churchill said to the US: ‘give us the tools and we will finish the job’. Zelenskiy is saying the same to us – and we should listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/ukraine-tanks-west-putin-russia-churchill
Nah, a couple crates of ATAKMs is all that’s needed to put the Russians on the ropes.
The Ukes know where the ammo dumps are (just out of Himars range) and taking them off the board would make life very difficult for the Russians.
The Ukrainians have more tanks than they started the war with, thanks to all the stuff they have captured off the Russians.
They need air defence missiles, long range drones, and long range rockets and missiles.
Dark Orange said:
Bubblecar said:
Ukraine needs tanks, and the west should supply them. They could finish off Putin and RussiaIn 1941, Churchill said to the US: ‘give us the tools and we will finish the job’. Zelenskiy is saying the same to us – and we should listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/ukraine-tanks-west-putin-russia-churchill
Nah, a couple crates of ATAKMs is all that’s needed to put the Russians on the ropes.
The Ukes know where the ammo dumps are (just out of Himars range) and taking them off the board would make life very difficult for the Russians.
Ukraine needs to win the war, not just make life difficult for the enemy.
party_pants said:
Dark Orange said:
Bubblecar said:
Ukraine needs tanks, and the west should supply them. They could finish off Putin and RussiaIn 1941, Churchill said to the US: ‘give us the tools and we will finish the job’. Zelenskiy is saying the same to us – and we should listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/ukraine-tanks-west-putin-russia-churchill
Nah, a couple crates of ATAKMs is all that’s needed to put the Russians on the ropes.
The Ukes know where the ammo dumps are (just out of Himars range) and taking them off the board would make life very difficult for the Russians.
The Ukrainians have more tanks than they started the war with, thanks to all the stuff they have captured off the Russians.
They need air defence missiles, long range drones, and long range rockets and missiles.
The headline emphasises tanks but he covers the whole range of things that Ukraine needs in the article.
Lessons from Russia’s cyber-war in Ukraine
It has been intense, but not always effective. Why?
Nov 30th 2022 | KYIV AND LONDON
Shaping the battlefield. Darius, king of Persia, did it in 331BC, with caltrops strewn where he thought his enemy Alexander the Great would advance. The Allies did it in 1944, with dummy aircraft and landing craft intended to fool Germany’s high command into thinking their invasion of France would be in the Pas de Calais, not Normandy. And Russia attempted it on February 24th, when, less than an hour before its tanks started rolling into Ukraine—on their way, they thought, to Kyiv—its computer hackers brought down the satellite communications system run by Viasat, an American firm, on which its opponents were relying.
Victor Zhora, head of Ukraine’s defensive cyber-security agency, said in March that the result was “a really huge loss in communications in the very beginning of war”. A Western former security official reckoned it took “a year or two of really, really serious preparation and effort”.
Win some, lose some. The Allies won. The d-day landings were successful. Darius lost, and lost his throne. Likewise, Russia’s advance on Kyiv was repelled. Its invasion force in that theatre was defeated. Despite the effort expended on trying, Russia could not generate a sufficiently thick fog of war through cyberwarfare. And that is interesting. Though cyberwarfare has been a hard-fought and important part of a conflict that has acted as a testing ground for this still-novel form of battle, it does not seem to have been the killer app, as it were, that some expected.
Bits in pieces
Russia’s attack on Viasat was not the only softening-up-by-software it directed at Ukraine in the run-up to the invasion. In January, and again on February 23rd, so-called “wiper” programs, designed to delete data, were spotted on hundreds of Ukrainian systems. Then, in April, as the forces that had threatened Kyiv fled, hackers working for Sandworm (suspected to be a front for gru, Russia’s military-intelligence service), used malware called Industroyer2 to attack the country’s electricity grid.
Assaults of this sort on civilian infrastructure are hard to keep quiet. But what is happening to military kit is a different matter. Ukraine’s armed forces have maintained tight operational security throughout the war, giving away nothing about how their own networks were penetrated or disrupted (which they were). Even so, the visible effects of Russia’s campaign have been surprisingly limited. “I think we were expecting much more significant impacts than what we saw,” said Mieke Eoyang, a senior cyber-official at the Pentagon, on November 16th. “Russian cyber-forces as well as their traditional military forces underperformed expectations.”
In the first days of the war, Ukraine stayed largely online. The lights remained on, even as fighting raged around the capital. The banks were open. Unlike 2015 and 2016, when cyber-attacks caused blackouts, electricity continued to flow. So did information. There was never a serious threat to Volodymyr Zelensky’s nightly presidential broadcasts to the Ukrainian people. If Russia’s aim was to undermine Ukrainians’ trust in their government and render the country ungovernable, it failed.
The most important reason for that was Ukraine’s defence. Lindy Cameron, head of Britain’s National Cyber Security Centre (ncsc) reckons Russia’s onslaught was “probably the most sustained and intensive cyber-campaign on record”. But as Sir Jeremy Fleming, her boss at gchq, Britain’s signals-intelligence agency (of which the ncsc is part) observed in an essay for The Economist in August, Ukraine’s response was “arguably…the most effective defensive cyber-activity in history”. Ukraine had been a test bed for Russian cyber-operations for years. Industroyer2’s predecessor, Industroyer, for example, was the cause of the blackouts in 2016. That gave the government insight into Russian operations, and time to harden its infrastructure.
This meant that when the invasion began, Ukraine’s cyber-command had a contingency plan ready. Some officials dispersed from Kyiv to safer parts of the country. Others moved to command posts near the front lines. Crucial services were transferred to data centres elsewhere in Europe, beyond the reach of Russian missiles. Ukraine’s armed forces, aware that satellites might be disrupted, had prepared alternative means of communication. The attack on Viasat ultimately “had no tactical impact on Ukrainian military comms and operations”, insisted Mr Zhora in September, qualifying his earlier statement.
What friends are for
Western assistance was also crucial. In the prelude to war, one way nato enhanced its co-operation with Ukraine was by granting access to its cyberthreat library, a repository of known malware. Britain provided £6m ($7.3m) of support, including firewalls to block attacks and forensic capabilities to analyse intrusions. The co-operation was mutual. “It is likely that the Ukrainians taught the us and the uk more about Russian cyber-tactics than they learned from them,” notes Marcus Willett, a former head of cyber issues for gchq.
Ukrainian resilience was helped, paradoxically, by the primitive nature of many of its industrial-control systems—inherited from Soviet days and not yet upgraded. When, for example, Industroyer hit electrical substations in Kyiv in 2016, engineers were able to reset systems with manual overrides within a few hours. When Industroyer2 took part of the grid offline in April, it came back on again in four hours.
Private cyber-security companies have also played a prominent role. Mr Zhora singles out Microsoft and eset, a Slovakian firm, as being particularly important for their large presence on Ukrainian networks and the “telemetry”, or network data, that they collect as a result. eset provided the intelligence which helped Ukrainian cyber-teams parry Industroyer2. Microsoft says that artificial intelligence, which can scan through code more quickly than a human being, has made it easier to detect attacks. On November 3rd Brad Smith, Microsoft’s president, announced that his firm would extend tech support to Ukraine until the end of 2023 free of charge. The pledge brought the value of Microsoft’s support to Ukraine since February to more than $400m.
There is no doubt that Ukraine was a hard target. But there are those who wonder whether Russia’s cyber-prowess might have been overrated. Russian spies have decades of experience with cyber-espionage, but the country’s military cyber-forces are “very young” compared with Western rivals, notes Gavin Wilde, a former director of Russia policy on America’s national security council. America began integrating cyber-plans into military operations during wars in Haiti and Kosovo in the 1990s. Russia has thought about it for only around six years, says Mr Wilde.
American, European and Ukrainian officials all say that there are many examples of Russian cyber-attacks synchronised with physical attacks, suggesting a degree of co-ordination between the two branches. But there have also been clumsy errors. Sir Jeremy says that, in some cases, Russian military strikes took down the same networks that Russian cyber-forces were attempting to infect—ironically forcing the Ukrainians to revert to more secure means of communication.
Others paint Russia as a sloppy cyber-power—good at breaking things, but loud and imprecise. In April David Cattler, nato’s top intelligence official, observed that Russia had used more destructive malware against Ukraine “than the rest of the world’s cyber-powers combined typically use in a given year”. But judging a cyber-campaign by the volume of malware is like rating infantry by the number of bullets fired. Daniel Moore, author of “Offensive Cyber Operations”, a recent book on the subject, says that every single one of Russia’s known attacks on critical infrastructure, in Ukraine and beyond, has been prematurely exposed, been riddled with errors or has spilled over beyond the intended target—as was the case with NotPetya, a self-spreading ransomware attack of 2017, which escaped from Ukraine to cause $10bn of damage around the world.
“There were significant operational failings in almost every single attack that they have ever carried out in cyberspace,” says Mr Moore. In contrast, he points to Stuxnet, an Israeli-American cyber-attack on an Iranian nuclear facility, first identified 12 years ago—technologically, ancient history. “That was far more complex than a lot of what we see from Russia today.”
The physical and the virtual
Some Western spies thus say the war shows a gulf between American and Russian proficiency in high-end cyber-operations against military hardware. But others warn that it is too early to draw sweeping conclusions. Russia’s cyber-campaign may have been constrained less by incapacity than by the hubris that also afflicted its conventional armed forces.
Western officials say that Russia failed to plan and launch highly destructive cyber-attacks on power, energy and transport not because it was unable to do so, but because it assumed it would soon occupy Ukraine and inherit that infrastructure. Why destroy what you will soon need? When the war dragged on instead, it had to adapt. But cyber-weapons are not like physical ones that can simply be wheeled around to point at another target and replenished with ammunition. Rather, they have to be tailored specifically to particular targets.
Sophisticated attacks, like that on Viasat, require huge preparation, including painstaking reconnaissance of target networks. In a paper published last year, Lennart Maschmeyer of eth Zurich showed that gru’s attack on Ukraine’s power grid in 2015 had taken 19 months of planning, while that in 2016 had required two and a half years. Launching such attacks also reveals to an enemy the tools (ie, code) and infrastructure (servers) being used, resulting in attrition of their effectiveness.
After the war’s first week, therefore, as Viasat-like set pieces were used up, Russian cyber-attacks grew more tactical and opportunistic. Then, in April, as Russia turned from Kyiv to the Donbas, the volume of wiper attacks dropped precipitously. In November, researchers at Mandiant, a cyber-security firm owned by Alphabet, described how gru was now attacking “edge” devices such as routers, firewalls and email servers to speed up attacks, even at the expense of stealthiness.
“What you’re seeing here is a production frontier,” says John Wolfram of Mandiant, referring to a graph in economic theory which shows the various combinations of two goods that can be produced with given resources. “You have a certain amount of expertise and capital, and you have to decide whether you spend it on one or two exquisite special operations—or 50 at lower cost.” Choosing the latter does not mean the former are beyond your capacity. “Russia is almost certainly capable of cyber-attacks of greater scale and consequence than events in Ukraine would have one believe,” notes Mr Cattler. The war “has not yet involved both sides using top-end offensive cyber-capabilities against each other”, agrees Mr Willett.
If all this is true, those capabilities might yet be unleashed. The sabotage of the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines in September, and missile attacks on Ukraine’s power grid, suggest that the Kremlin’s appetite for risk is growing. There are signs of this in the cyber-domain, too. One British official says that Russia, mindful of the NotPetya incident, was keen at first to confine its attacks to Ukraine, to avoid picking a fight with nato. But that may be changing. In late September Sandworm launched the first intentional attack on targets in a nato-country, with “Prestige”, a disruptive piece of malware that was directed at transport and logistics in Poland, a hub for arms supplies to Ukraine.
There are also those who believe the power of cyberwarfare has been misunderstood. Cyber-operations have been “intense and important”, acknowledges Ciaran Martin, Ms Cameron’s predecessor at the ncsc. But the war has illustrated “the severe limitations of cyber as a wartime capability”, he says. Stuxnet, which infected Iranian systems that were “air gapped” (that is, physically disconnected from the internet), mechanically damaged machinery, yet remained undetected for months. Its success gave rise to a distorted view of cyber-attacks as wonder weapons, capable of substituting for bombs and missiles. In truth, argues Mr Martin, Stuxnet was the “Moon landing” of offensive cyber, an exquisite one-off that required superpower resources to execute rather than being a staple of cyberwars.
Nor is cyber “some magic invisible battlefield where you can do stuff you can’t get away with normally”, says Mr Martin. Not only is it difficult to cause severe harm to well-defended computer networks, but such attacks, contrary to conventional wisdom, would be “easily attributed”. Cyber-offensives are not consequence-free. “Despite all the hype,” notes Mr Martin, “Putin has not seriously troubled the West at all in cyberspace since the invasion.”
Adjudicating these debates and drawing lessons will take time and perspective. Many intrusions may have gone unnoticed. An attack on the Lviv regional military organisation was caught only at a late stage, for example—and the Russian toolset went largely unnoticed by commercial security software. Detecting attacks is not a foolproof science, says one Ukrainian cyber-security official. Often, there is a legitimate login to the system, when someone’s password is compromised. You only see symptoms, not cause. “It’s like someone presents with a cough, or low blood oxygen. We only now know that it could be covid. Malware is similar. We rarely detect it when it penetrates the network, only when we see anomalies. In most cases, we catch things only some time in the middle.”
One further point is that the most destructive cyber-operations, like Stuxnet, are actually most useful in peacetime, when missiles are off the table. In war, munitions can often do the job more easily and cheaply. Probably, the most important wartime cyber-activity, on both sides, is that aimed at intelligence gathering or psychological warfare rather than destruction.
A Ukrainian former politician in a position to know confirms that the most valuable contribution of the country’s cyber-forces is extracting secrets, such as details of European companies that are violating American sanctions on Russia. “There are some other things I can’t talk about, but it’s pretty impressive work,” he says. The Allied decryption of Germany’s Enigma cipher machines in the second world war did not come to light until the 1970s. The ultimate impact of cyber-operations in Ukraine may remain obscure for years.
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2022/11/30/lessons-from-russias-cyber-war-in-ukraine?
How the West’s price cap on Russian oil could roil energy markets
Traders expect a damp squib; they could get dynamite instead
Nov 30th 2022 | NEW YORK
Ever since Russia invaded Ukraine in February, America’s energy policy has pursued two grand, seemingly contradictory aims. The first is to keep global oil supply high enough that prices remain tolerable and public support for sanctions stays strong. The second is to asphyxiate Vladimir Putin’s war machine by stemming the flow of dollars Russia earns by flogging oil barrels. Together they form a circle that is hard to square because, with supply closely tracking demand amid a dearth of new production, taking any oil off the market mechanically triggers higher prices. The West has nevertheless tried to defy the law of physics by crafting a growing array of measures to meddle in oil markets.
The ones that have been deployed until now have often been piecemeal and involve uncomfortable compromises. Puncturing its own sanctions against Venezuela’s thuggish regime, on November 26th America granted permission for Chevron, a big American oil firm, to crank up its production there. America has also released huge volumes from its strategic crude-oil stocks; the reserve is now at its lowest level since 1984. The White House’s least productive effort has aimed to cajole Gulf states into pumping more. Within months of President Joe Biden fist-bumping Muhammad Bin Salman, the de facto Saudi ruler, in Riyadh in July, the petrostate and its allies in the Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (opec) declared they would cut output instead. On December 4th the cartel meets again. It looks unlikely to help by increasing output now.
Yet the West’s most carefully constructed campaign to outsmart Mr Putin has yet to come into action. In June the eu announced that, come December 5th, it would ban imports of Russian seaborne crude oil, which accounted for 2m barrels per day (b/d), or about 40% of Russia’s total crude exports, a year ago. Then it said it would also bar European providers of maritime services, tankers and insurance from helping non-eu buyers get hold of the Russian barrels it shuns—a powerful tool, given those firms dominate the global shipping market. It soon dawned on America that, together, those two measures had the potential to squeeze global oil supply. And so it insisted on introducing a weakening clause: provided they agree to pay a maximum price, set by the g7, for Russia’s oil, non-Western buyers could continue to buy European insurance.
As we went to press the level of this “price cap” was still being debated among Europeans. Some, led by Poland and the Baltic states, want the cap to be low so as to hurt Russia’s finances. Others, worried about their shipping industries or retaliation from Russia, want to keep it close to market levels. Rumours filtering out from the talks suggest it may end up near $60 a barrel—a discount of nearly 30% to the current price of Brent, the global benchmark, of $85 a barrel—which is about what Russia sells its oil for these days anyway. Whatever the outcome one thing is certain. Never before has such a fiddly set of measures hit the global oil market at once. Many of these have been signalled for so long that they may cause few problems. But there are reasons to think the boat could be rocked, at least for a while.
In an optimistic scenario the package of sanctions could manage to reconcile the West’s two contradictory aims. The embargo would ensure Europe no longer fuels Mr Putin’s war: last month the bloc still bought 2.4m b/d of crude and refined oil from Russia. Meanwhile the price cap, says an American Treasury official, would act as a “release valve”, keeping the global market in balance by letting developing countries buy Russian oil at a discount. Russia would receive less money whether or not those countries sign up to the plan, because the mere existence of a cap, or so America reckons, would boost their bargaining power.
In the absence of a low enough price cap, as is likely to be the case, the cost to Russia would be real but modest. It would add yet more inconvenience to that created by the West’s broader arsenal of sanctions, which may impair Russia’s economy in the long run but have hardly proved terminal so far. The discounts borne by Russian grades over regional benchmarks have widened in recent weeks but remain well below those seen in the aftermath of the invasion. At least the embargo would not roil crude markets—or so commodities markets suggest. Brent futures, which in June indicated a year-ahead oil price approaching $100 a barrel, now place it closer to $85 (see chart panel). Most traders expect an acceleration of the shift in fuel flows seen so far this year, with India and China taking over from Europe as Russia’s biggest customers.
This happy story assumes no logistical hiccups will prevent decades-old trading patterns from undergoing a smooth but rapid transition. A less rosy scenario, however, could see sanctions throw spanners in the spigots by introducing unwanted friction. Three bottlenecks stand out: a crunch in tankers, an insurance gap and a global shortage in risk appetite.
Start with the tankers. Cyprus, Greece and Malta loom so large in shipping that Europe’s ban on the provision of maritime services to countries that do not sign up to the cap—and many of them, loth to endorse American interference in commodity markets, have signalled they won’t—could create a big shortage of ships capable of carrying Russian crude. Claudio Galimberti of Rystad Energy, a data firm, anticipates a shortfall of some 70 vessels, with an aggregate carrying capacity of 750,000 b/d, lasting two to three months.
Eventually this problem should work itself out. Industry insiders point to an ever growing “dark fleet” that is absorbing vessels from established sanction-busters in Iran and Venezuela. Russian firms are bringing mothballed vessels back into service; eu shipowners are also transferring assets to operators outside the g7. A top energy trader reckons that, by February, there will be enough ships to transport Russian crude, though vessels to redirect refined products such as diesel from short-haul routes in Europe to distant new customers may stay scarce for some time.
The crunch in insurance coverage is a bigger potential snag. It is not that Middle-Eastern or Asian countries keen on Russian barrels do not have local firms with the financial muscle to insure tankers and cargo. What they may soon lack is cover for much bigger risks like oil spills, liabilities for which can easily reach half a billion dollars. Few insurers new to the market will look forward to becoming liable for an ageing Venezuelan vessel going through Danish straits a mere 15m deep, says a veteran oil trader, without a big backstop.
The problem is that this sort of backstop—reinsurance—demands deep pools of private capital hard to find outside the West. Perhaps the Chinese and Indian governments could be persuaded to offer sovereign reinsurance, though market insiders doubt they have the stomach. In fact some traders reckon Asian buyers could buy less Russian oil rather than more as the insurance ban comes into force.
The third bottleneck could be a lack of appetite outside the g7 for the perceived risks of circumventing a scheme designed by the West. Many do not believe American promises to remain hands-off if countries choose to go around the cap. It does not help that, in its most recent sanction campaigns, such as those targeted at Iran, America has studiously kept the perimeter and degree of enforcement of penalties vague so as to deter anyone from dealing with its foes. The practice, known in sanctions parlance as “constructive ambiguity”, is hard to roll back.
All this could cause a chunk of Russian oil exports to fall off the map, prompting prices to jump. But a much worse scenario, where Russia voluntarily slashes its oil exports and prices get out of control, is also possible. It may happen if China, having to forsake its purchases from other countries to buy yet more Russian oil, tries to drive too hard a bargain. More likely it would be a unilateral decision by Mr Putin. It could incur huge costs: Russia derives 40% of its export revenues from oil sales. But that might be worth bearing temporarily if it drives global prices up, hurting the West and giving Russia more leverage in negotiations with buyers, without inflicting intolerable damage to wells. The country’s decision to shut temporarily nearly 2m b/d of crude production during the pandemic resulted in only a 300,000 b/d loss in long-term capacity, according to Energy Intelligence, an industry publisher.
Up to now the g7’s energy policy has been hashed out in painstaking detail in Washington, dc, and Brussels. But, to paraphrase Mike Tyson, everyone has a great plan until they get punched in the face—and, facing serious setbacks on the battlefield, Mr Putin is pulling no punches right now. The price-cap’s first contact with reality could be rough.
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2022/11/30/how-the-wests-price-cap-on-russian-oil-could-roil-energy-markets?
Why Russia’s cyber-attacks have fallen flat
Ukraine benefited from good preparation and lots of help
Dec 1st 2022
Wars are testbeds for new technology. The Korean war saw jet fighters employed at scale for the first time. Israel pioneered the use of drones as radar decoys in its war with Egypt in 1973. And the Gulf war of 1991 was a coming-out party for gps-guided munitions. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the first time that two mature cyber-powers have fought each other over computer networks in wartime. The result is a lesson in the limits of cyber-power and the importance of having a sound defence.
The popular notion of cyberwar has been shaped by lurid and dystopian scenarios of an “electronic Pearl Harbour”, first envisaged in the 1990s and accentuated by the relentless digitisation of society. Those fears have been fanned by glimpses of the possible. The American-Israeli Stuxnet worm, which came to light in 2010, inflicted damage on Iranian nuclear machinery with fiendish ingenuity. Russian malware sabotaged Ukraine’s power grid in 2015 and 2016.
Yet when a full-blown cyberwar came to Ukraine, the result was modest. This was not for want of trying. Russia has thrown vast amounts of malware at Ukraine—the largest onslaught ever, say some officials. There were some notable successes, such as the disruption of Viasat, a commercial satellite-communications service used by Ukraine’s government and armed forces, less than an hour before the invasion.
But, despite Russia’s cyber-warriors, Ukraine’s lights, power and water stayed on. The banks remained open. Perhaps most important, Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, continued to make nightly television broadcasts to the nation. How?
Part of the answer lies in Russia’s missteps. It limited its initial strikes because it assumed that Ukrainian infrastructure would soon come under its control. Russia’s cyber-forces also have less experience of integrating cyber-operations with military ones than their American counterparts, who have been doing it for 30 years.
The conflict also shows how wartime cyber-power has been miscast. Spectacular cyber-attacks are rare because they are much more demanding than commonly thought. The Russian sabotage of Ukraine’s power grid in 2016, for instance, took more than two years to prepare. Viasat-like attacks are not mass-produced missiles that can be launched at any target. They are custom-made.
All this has two implications. One is that cyber-campaigns can run out of steam. Russia’s troops planned for a week-long war. So, too, did its hackers. When the invasion dragged on, they had to adjust their ambitions. They resorted to more basic attacks that could be launched at high tempo and scale. These were, and remain, a challenge for Ukrainian forces—but a manageable one.
The second implication is that elaborate cyber-offensives are often needed the most when raw violence is off the table. If a war is raging anyway, why use exquisite code when a missile will do? Russia’s recent air attacks show that Iranian drones are a cheaper and simpler way to knock out the power grid.
Wartime cyber-offensives tend to complement military action rather than replace it. The most important cyber-operations are not those aimed at shutting down banks and airports, but those which quietly carry on intelligence-gathering and psychological warfare—tasks that have been part of battle since long before the existence of computers or the internet.
But if the cyber-conflict has underwhelmed, it is Ukraine that ultimately deserves the most credit. Russia treated Ukraine as a cyber-testing-range in the years after its first invasion in 2014. Ukraine was thus prepared. On February 24th its cyber-teams fanned out across the country, so that they were dispersed. Much of Ukraine’s digital infrastructure migrated to servers abroad, beyond the reach of Russian bombs.
Western governments and their cyber-agencies also played a role, sharing intelligence, fortifying Ukraine’s networks and rooting out Russian intruders in December and January. So, too, did private firms like Microsoft, an American tech giant, and eset, a cyber-security company from Slovakia, which monitor traffic on Ukrainian networks, often using artificial intelligence to comb through huge volumes of code. “The cyber-defence of Ukraine relies critically on a coalition of countries, companies and ngos,” wrote Microsoft in a lessons-learned report in June.
It is still early to draw solid conclusions. The war is raging and new malware is appearing all the time. Russia may be keeping some of its most potent cyber-capabilities in reserve. Yet the first signs are encouraging. It has often been assumed that the cyber-domain is an attacker’s playground, and that malware will always get through and cause devastation. Ukraine has defied expectations and shown that even one of the planet’s best-resourced cyber-powers can be kept at bay with a disciplined and well-organised defence.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/01/why-russias-cyber-attacks-have-fallen-flat?
Witty Rejoinder said:
Why Russia’s cyber-attacks have fallen flat
Ukraine benefited from good preparation and lots of helpDec 1st 2022
Wars are testbeds for new technology. The Korean war saw jet fighters employed at scale for the first time. Israel pioneered the use of drones as radar decoys in its war with Egypt in 1973. And the Gulf war of 1991 was a coming-out party for gps-guided munitions. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the first time that two mature cyber-powers have fought each other over computer networks in wartime. The result is a lesson in the limits of cyber-power and the importance of having a sound defence.
The popular notion of cyberwar has been shaped by lurid and dystopian scenarios of an “electronic Pearl Harbour”, first envisaged in the 1990s and accentuated by the relentless digitisation of society. Those fears have been fanned by glimpses of the possible. The American-Israeli Stuxnet worm, which came to light in 2010, inflicted damage on Iranian nuclear machinery with fiendish ingenuity. Russian malware sabotaged Ukraine’s power grid in 2015 and 2016.
Yet when a full-blown cyberwar came to Ukraine, the result was modest. This was not for want of trying. Russia has thrown vast amounts of malware at Ukraine—the largest onslaught ever, say some officials. There were some notable successes, such as the disruption of Viasat, a commercial satellite-communications service used by Ukraine’s government and armed forces, less than an hour before the invasion.
But, despite Russia’s cyber-warriors, Ukraine’s lights, power and water stayed on. The banks remained open. Perhaps most important, Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, continued to make nightly television broadcasts to the nation. How?
Part of the answer lies in Russia’s missteps. It limited its initial strikes because it assumed that Ukrainian infrastructure would soon come under its control. Russia’s cyber-forces also have less experience of integrating cyber-operations with military ones than their American counterparts, who have been doing it for 30 years.
The conflict also shows how wartime cyber-power has been miscast. Spectacular cyber-attacks are rare because they are much more demanding than commonly thought. The Russian sabotage of Ukraine’s power grid in 2016, for instance, took more than two years to prepare. Viasat-like attacks are not mass-produced missiles that can be launched at any target. They are custom-made.
All this has two implications. One is that cyber-campaigns can run out of steam. Russia’s troops planned for a week-long war. So, too, did its hackers. When the invasion dragged on, they had to adjust their ambitions. They resorted to more basic attacks that could be launched at high tempo and scale. These were, and remain, a challenge for Ukrainian forces—but a manageable one.
The second implication is that elaborate cyber-offensives are often needed the most when raw violence is off the table. If a war is raging anyway, why use exquisite code when a missile will do? Russia’s recent air attacks show that Iranian drones are a cheaper and simpler way to knock out the power grid.
Wartime cyber-offensives tend to complement military action rather than replace it. The most important cyber-operations are not those aimed at shutting down banks and airports, but those which quietly carry on intelligence-gathering and psychological warfare—tasks that have been part of battle since long before the existence of computers or the internet.
But if the cyber-conflict has underwhelmed, it is Ukraine that ultimately deserves the most credit. Russia treated Ukraine as a cyber-testing-range in the years after its first invasion in 2014. Ukraine was thus prepared. On February 24th its cyber-teams fanned out across the country, so that they were dispersed. Much of Ukraine’s digital infrastructure migrated to servers abroad, beyond the reach of Russian bombs.
Western governments and their cyber-agencies also played a role, sharing intelligence, fortifying Ukraine’s networks and rooting out Russian intruders in December and January. So, too, did private firms like Microsoft, an American tech giant, and eset, a cyber-security company from Slovakia, which monitor traffic on Ukrainian networks, often using artificial intelligence to comb through huge volumes of code. “The cyber-defence of Ukraine relies critically on a coalition of countries, companies and ngos,” wrote Microsoft in a lessons-learned report in June.
It is still early to draw solid conclusions. The war is raging and new malware is appearing all the time. Russia may be keeping some of its most potent cyber-capabilities in reserve. Yet the first signs are encouraging. It has often been assumed that the cyber-domain is an attacker’s playground, and that malware will always get through and cause devastation. Ukraine has defied expectations and shown that even one of the planet’s best-resourced cyber-powers can be kept at bay with a disciplined and well-organised defence.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/01/why-russias-cyber-attacks-have-fallen-flat?
Let’s hope some of those Russian hackers have enough conscience to be sabotaging the projects they’ve been ordered to carry out.
Witty Rejoinder said:
It is still early to draw solid conclusions. The war is raging and new malware is appearing all the time. Russia may be keeping some of its most potent cyber-capabilities in reserve. Yet the first signs are encouraging. It has often been assumed that the cyber-domain is an attacker’s playground, and that malware will always get through and cause devastation. Ukraine has defied expectations and shown that even one of the planet’s best-resourced cyber-powers can be kept at bay with a disciplined and well-organised defence.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/01/why-russias-cyber-attacks-have-fallen-flat?
This has parallels with the thinking/fears of the 1930s, when bombing of infrastructure, cities, and populations was the hot idea, and with Stanley Baldwin’s 1932 notion that ‘the bomber will always get through’.
Ir was widely assumed that a campaign of strategic/terror bombing would reduce a nation to submissive tatters very promptly. The following 10-15 years provided ample evidence of the failure of that argument.
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:It is still early to draw solid conclusions. The war is raging and new malware is appearing all the time. Russia may be keeping some of its most potent cyber-capabilities in reserve. Yet the first signs are encouraging. It has often been assumed that the cyber-domain is an attacker’s playground, and that malware will always get through and cause devastation. Ukraine has defied expectations and shown that even one of the planet’s best-resourced cyber-powers can be kept at bay with a disciplined and well-organised defence.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/01/why-russias-cyber-attacks-have-fallen-flat?
This has parallels with the thinking/fears of the 1930s, when bombing of infrastructure, cities, and populations was the hot idea, and with Stanley Baldwin’s 1932 notion that ‘the bomber will always get through’.
Ir was widely assumed that a campaign of strategic/terror bombing would reduce a nation to submissive tatters very promptly. The following 10-15 years provided ample evidence of the failure of that argument.
Except for those couple of bombs dropped in Japan…
furious said:
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:It is still early to draw solid conclusions. The war is raging and new malware is appearing all the time. Russia may be keeping some of its most potent cyber-capabilities in reserve. Yet the first signs are encouraging. It has often been assumed that the cyber-domain is an attacker’s playground, and that malware will always get through and cause devastation. Ukraine has defied expectations and shown that even one of the planet’s best-resourced cyber-powers can be kept at bay with a disciplined and well-organised defence.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/01/why-russias-cyber-attacks-have-fallen-flat?
This has parallels with the thinking/fears of the 1930s, when bombing of infrastructure, cities, and populations was the hot idea, and with Stanley Baldwin’s 1932 notion that ‘the bomber will always get through’.
Ir was widely assumed that a campaign of strategic/terror bombing would reduce a nation to submissive tatters very promptly. The following 10-15 years provided ample evidence of the failure of that argument.
Except for those couple of bombs dropped in Japan…
The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be.
furious said:
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:It is still early to draw solid conclusions. The war is raging and new malware is appearing all the time. Russia may be keeping some of its most potent cyber-capabilities in reserve. Yet the first signs are encouraging. It has often been assumed that the cyber-domain is an attacker’s playground, and that malware will always get through and cause devastation. Ukraine has defied expectations and shown that even one of the planet’s best-resourced cyber-powers can be kept at bay with a disciplined and well-organised defence.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/12/01/why-russias-cyber-attacks-have-fallen-flat?
This has parallels with the thinking/fears of the 1930s, when bombing of infrastructure, cities, and populations was the hot idea, and with Stanley Baldwin’s 1932 notion that ‘the bomber will always get through’.
Ir was widely assumed that a campaign of strategic/terror bombing would reduce a nation to submissive tatters very promptly. The following 10-15 years provided ample evidence of the failure of that argument.
Except for those couple of bombs dropped in Japan…
Comparing apples and oranges there.
And, let’s not forget, that (a) the Japanese Imperial General Staff at first tried to conceal the extent of the devastation so as to avoid calls to end the war, (b) it took two demonstrations of that power to convince the Emperor, © even after that there was people on the JIGS who wanted to continue fighting, (d) even after the Emperor had made his decision and recorded his surrender speech, accepting the Potsdam declaration, there was serious attempts to prevent it being broadcast, amounting to an attempted coup by pro-war military elements.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
captain_spalding said:This has parallels with the thinking/fears of the 1930s, when bombing of infrastructure, cities, and populations was the hot idea, and with Stanley Baldwin’s 1932 notion that ‘the bomber will always get through’.
Ir was widely assumed that a campaign of strategic/terror bombing would reduce a nation to submissive tatters very promptly. The following 10-15 years provided ample evidence of the failure of that argument.
Except for those couple of bombs dropped in Japan…
The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be.
Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
captain_spalding said:This has parallels with the thinking/fears of the 1930s, when bombing of infrastructure, cities, and populations was the hot idea, and with Stanley Baldwin’s 1932 notion that ‘the bomber will always get through’.
Ir was widely assumed that a campaign of strategic/terror bombing would reduce a nation to submissive tatters very promptly. The following 10-15 years provided ample evidence of the failure of that argument.
Except for those couple of bombs dropped in Japan…
The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be.
Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Except for those couple of bombs dropped in Japan…
The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be.
Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
What has that got to do with CS’s point that strategic bombing proved ineffective in WWII?
Not really, they’re bombs, aren’t they? Probably take more than one to make Ukraine surrender too…
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be.
Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
What has that got to do with CS’s point that strategic bombing proved ineffective in WWII?
Because two strategic bombs ended WWII…
furious said:
Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
Something else that shouldn’t be forgotten:
this is all about ‘Putin’s legacy’.
Putin wanted to be remembered as the bloke who ‘restored’ Ukraine (and other territory) to Russia, ‘restoring’ Russia’s status as an ‘imperial’ power.
What legacy is it to leave a ruined, uninhabitable, radioactive Ukraine as an albatross around Russia’s neck?
captain_spalding said:
furious said:Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
Something else that shouldn’t be forgotten:
this is all about ‘Putin’s legacy’.
Putin wanted to be remembered as the bloke who ‘restored’ Ukraine (and other territory) to Russia, ‘restoring’ Russia’s status as an ‘imperial’ power.
What legacy is it to leave a ruined, uninhabitable, radioactive Ukraine as an albatross around Russia’s neck?
they’d probably say “Don’t want it now”.
captain_spalding said:
furious said:Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
Something else that shouldn’t be forgotten:
this is all about ‘Putin’s legacy’.
Putin wanted to be remembered as the bloke who ‘restored’ Ukraine (and other territory) to Russia, ‘restoring’ Russia’s status as an ‘imperial’ power.
What legacy is it to leave a ruined, uninhabitable, radioactive Ukraine as an albatross around Russia’s neck?
They don’t need to bomb the country until it glows at night, look at Japan, they’re doing alright…
JudgeMental said:
captain_spalding said:
furious said:Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
Something else that shouldn’t be forgotten:
this is all about ‘Putin’s legacy’.
Putin wanted to be remembered as the bloke who ‘restored’ Ukraine (and other territory) to Russia, ‘restoring’ Russia’s status as an ‘imperial’ power.
What legacy is it to leave a ruined, uninhabitable, radioactive Ukraine as an albatross around Russia’s neck?
they’d probably say “Don’t want it now”.
If I can’t have you, no one can…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Yeah, and Russia has nuclear weapons…
What has that got to do with CS’s point that strategic bombing proved ineffective in WWII?
Because two strategic bombs ended WWII…
Russia is not going to use strategic nuclear weapons on large Ukrainian cities.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:What has that got to do with CS’s point that strategic bombing proved ineffective in WWII?
Because two strategic bombs ended WWII…
Russia is not going to use strategic nuclear weapons on large Ukrainian cities.
Let’s hope not, but it was certainly effective in WWII, no denying that…
The original Russian ‘blitzkrieg’ idea didn’t work out.
They weren’t able to cut off Kyiv or disable the Ukrainian government.
They had to withdraw from northern Ukraine.
They got pushed back significantly in north-eastern Ukraine.
They’ve suffered similar pushbacks in south-eastern Ukraine.
Their supply lines are under threat in the north and in the south.
And they STILL haven’t gone nuclear.
What do you see as being the final straw?
captain_spalding said:
The original Russian ‘blitzkrieg’ idea didn’t work out.They weren’t able to cut off Kyiv or disable the Ukrainian government.
They had to withdraw from northern Ukraine.
They got pushed back significantly in north-eastern Ukraine.
They’ve suffered similar pushbacks in south-eastern Ukraine.
Their supply lines are under threat in the north and in the south.
And they STILL haven’t gone nuclear.
What do you see as being the final straw?
If they did it, it wouldn’t be down to anything the Ukrainians did. It would be a last desperate self preservation act by Putin…
captain_spalding said:
The original Russian ‘blitzkrieg’ idea didn’t work out.They weren’t able to cut off Kyiv or disable the Ukrainian government.
They had to withdraw from northern Ukraine.
They got pushed back significantly in north-eastern Ukraine.
They’ve suffered similar pushbacks in south-eastern Ukraine.
Their supply lines are under threat in the north and in the south.
And they STILL haven’t gone nuclear.
What do you see as being the final straw?
If they did it, it wouldn’t be down to anything the Ukrainians did. It would be a last desperate self preservation act by Putin…
I’m not saying that they won’t, ever.
But, at what point is it ‘worth it’?
For Truman, it was the prospect of, by conservative estimates, 1 million Allied dead, 2 to 3 times that number of Allied wounded, and 6-8 million Japanese dead (and God only knows how many inured) in a ‘conventional’ invasion/conquest of a thoroughly destroyed Japan that formed his decision.
Where’s Putin’s thinking on that?
captain_spalding said:
The original Russian ‘blitzkrieg’ idea didn’t work out.They weren’t able to cut off Kyiv or disable the Ukrainian government.
They had to withdraw from northern Ukraine.
They got pushed back significantly in north-eastern Ukraine.
They’ve suffered similar pushbacks in south-eastern Ukraine.
Their supply lines are under threat in the north and in the south.
And they STILL haven’t gone nuclear.
What do you see as being the final straw?
losing the war by running out of armoury aside from nuclear
captain_spalding said:
I’m not saying that they won’t, ever.But, at what point is it ‘worth it’?
For Truman, it was the prospect of, by conservative estimates, 1 million Allied dead, 2 to 3 times that number of Allied wounded, and 6-8 million Japanese dead (and God only knows how many inured) in a ‘conventional’ invasion/conquest of a thoroughly destroyed Japan that formed his decision.
Where’s Putin’s thinking on that?
inured=injured
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Because two strategic bombs ended WWII…
Russia is not going to use strategic nuclear weapons on large Ukrainian cities.
Let’s hope not, but it was certainly effective in WWII, no denying that…
The use of previously unimaginable new weapons to convince the Japanese leadership that defeat was inevitable does not support your argument that Little-Boy and Fat-Man were nothing more than a continuation of strategic bombing by other means.
captain_spalding said:
I’m not saying that they won’t, ever.But, at what point is it ‘worth it’?
For Truman, it was the prospect of, by conservative estimates, 1 million Allied dead, 2 to 3 times that number of Allied wounded, and 6-8 million Japanese dead (and God only knows how many inured) in a ‘conventional’ invasion/conquest of a thoroughly destroyed Japan that formed his decision.
Where’s Putin’s thinking on that?
I’m not sure Putin is rational…
furious said:
I’m not sure Putin is rational…
No-one is.
The other question is: is he all that irrational?
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Russia is not going to use strategic nuclear weapons on large Ukrainian cities.
Let’s hope not, but it was certainly effective in WWII, no denying that…
The use of previously unimaginable new weapons to convince the Japanese leadership that defeat was inevitable does not support your argument that Little-Boy and Fat-Man were nothing more than a continuation of strategic bombing by other means.
Two bombs. Strategically dropped. Sounds like strategic bombing to me…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Let’s hope not, but it was certainly effective in WWII, no denying that…
The use of previously unimaginable new weapons to convince the Japanese leadership that defeat was inevitable does not support your argument that Little-Boy and Fat-Man were nothing more than a continuation of strategic bombing by other means.
Two bombs. Strategically dropped. Sounds like strategic bombing to me…
So the Japanese surrendered because of the destruction of just two cities when they had ample means to continue fighting for years ahead?
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Let’s hope not, but it was certainly effective in WWII, no denying that…
The use of previously unimaginable new weapons to convince the Japanese leadership that defeat was inevitable does not support your argument that Little-Boy and Fat-Man were nothing more than a continuation of strategic bombing by other means.
Two bombs. Strategically dropped. Sounds like strategic bombing to me…
it was. russia would probably use tactical nukes if at all.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:The use of previously unimaginable new weapons to convince the Japanese leadership that defeat was inevitable does not support your argument that Little-Boy and Fat-Man were nothing more than a continuation of strategic bombing by other means.
Two bombs. Strategically dropped. Sounds like strategic bombing to me…
So the Japanese surrendered because of the destruction of just two cities when they had ample means to continue fighting for years ahead?
So, the strategic bombing was effective. Wasn’t that the point?
furious said:
Two bombs. Strategically dropped. Sounds like strategic bombing to me…
Oh, yes, it was definitely strategic.
But, it was an entirely new and different strategy, and it was in that that its impact lay.
One plane, one bomb, one city destroyed.
This was an entirely new concept. Before this, if you could stop enough of their bombers, your city need not be destroyed.
Even if some, or a lot, of them got through, their bombing was likely to be so inaccurate as to not significantly affect your ability to continue the war.
But, faced with the prospect where it took only ONE bomber to get through, and your city was gone! wiped out! kaput!…a whole other story.
The Japanese had no idea how many of these bombs the Americans had. Could have been thousands.
In the face of that new idea, with nothing to measure it against, what could they do, really?
It was ‘strategic bombing’, but not the strategic bombing as it had been understood up until then.
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Two bombs. Strategically dropped. Sounds like strategic bombing to me…
So the Japanese surrendered because of the destruction of just two cities when they had ample means to continue fighting for years ahead?
So, the strategic bombing was effective. Wasn’t that the point?
No the use of a new weapon was the crucial factor.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:So the Japanese surrendered because of the destruction of just two cities when they had ample means to continue fighting for years ahead?
So, the strategic bombing was effective. Wasn’t that the point?
No the use of a new weapon was the crucial factor.
Yes, crucial to the strategy…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:So, the strategic bombing was effective. Wasn’t that the point?
No the use of a new weapon was the crucial factor.
Yes, crucial to the strategy…
Which wouldn’t work in Ukraine’s war.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:No the use of a new weapon was the crucial factor.
Yes, crucial to the strategy…
Which wouldn’t work in Ukraine’s war.
But, was effective in WWII…
furious said:
Yes, crucial to the strategy…
Yes, it was.
The Japanese had no qualms at all about continuing the fight in the face of the ‘old’ bombing strategy.
It was the prospect of the ‘new’ bombing strategy that changed their minds. Well, changed the minds of the sane ones, at least.
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Yes, crucial to the strategy…
Which wouldn’t work in Ukraine’s war.
But, was effective in WWII…
No.
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Yes, crucial to the strategy…
Which wouldn’t work in Ukraine’s war.
But, was effective in WWII…
As i say, and as you continue to ignore, the ‘old’ strategic bombing was ineffective. The ‘new’ bombing was an entirely different kettle of fish.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Which wouldn’t work in Ukraine’s war.
But, was effective in WWII…
No.
Evidence says yes…
captain_spalding said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Which wouldn’t work in Ukraine’s war.
But, was effective in WWII…
As i say, and as you continue to ignore, the ‘old’ strategic bombing was ineffective. The ‘new’ bombing was an entirely different kettle of fish.
But you didn’t say that until after I pointed out the flaw in what you did say…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:But, was effective in WWII…
No.
Evidence says yes…
i believe cross purposes are being talked here somehow.
furious said:
But you didn’t say that until after I pointed out the flaw in what you did say…
Sorry, i was blinded by my own spectacular brilliance there. :)
Could you please point out that flaw again, so i don’‘t miss it?
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:But, was effective in WWII…
No.
Evidence says yes…
No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
strategic bombing didn’t work in WW2 until nukes were used. Russia is unlikely to use strategic bombing with nukes against ukraine. they may use tactical nukes.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:No.
Evidence says yes…
No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
No, my original contention was strategic use of nuclear weapons in Japan WWII, was effective as opposed to the contention that no strategic bombing was effective in WWII. The Russia stuff came later…
JudgeMental said:
strategic bombing didn’t work in WW2 until nukes were used. Russia is unlikely to use strategic bombing with nukes against ukraine. they may use tactical nukes.
That pretty much covers it…
Witty Rejoinder said:
No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
If (and, i confess, i could have missed it) that was furious’s conjecture, then i have to admit that he might just be right.
Zelenskiy doesn’t seem to me to be the man to wish for his country to go down in flames. If the Russians really did start obliterating Ukrainian cites, well then, like any decent man, Zelenskiy might well say that ‘unless the West can somehow rescue us from this, then we have to submit’.
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Evidence says yes…
No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
No, my original contention was strategic use of nuclear weapons in Japan WWII, was effective as opposed to the contention that no strategic bombing was effective in WWII. The Russia stuff came later…
This just brings us back to your error in thinking that it was the loss of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that was of vital strategic importance to the Japanese war-effort.
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
If (and, i confess, i could have missed it) that was furious’s conjecture, then i have to admit that he might just be right.
Zelenskiy doesn’t seem to me to be the man to wish for his country to go down in flames. If the Russians really did start obliterating Ukrainian cites, well then, like any decent man, Zelenskiy might well say that ‘unless the West can somehow rescue us from this, then we have to submit’.
I did say it would take more than one, but probably not many more than one…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Evidence says yes…
No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
No, my original contention was strategic use of nuclear weapons in Japan WWII, was effective as opposed to the contention that no strategic bombing was effective in WWII. The Russia stuff came later…
yes.
Strategic bombing is a military strategy used in total war with the goal of defeating the enemy by destroying its morale, its economic ability to produce and transport materiel to the theatres of military operations, or both. It is a systematically organized and executed attack from the air which can utilize strategic bombers, long- or medium-range missiles, or nuclear-armed fighter-bomber aircraft to attack targets deemed vital to the enemy’s war-making capability. The term terror bombing is used to describe the strategic bombing of civilian targets without military value, in the hope of damaging an enemy’s morale.
wiki
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
No, my original contention was strategic use of nuclear weapons in Japan WWII, was effective as opposed to the contention that no strategic bombing was effective in WWII. The Russia stuff came later…
This just brings us back to your error in thinking that it was the loss of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that was of vital strategic importance to the Japanese war-effort.
I didn’t say anything about the Japanese war effort. It was about reducing a country into submission…
Witty Rejoinder said:
This just brings us back to your error in thinking that it was the loss of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that was of vital strategic importance to the Japanese war-effort.
No, they certainly weren’t.
The Japanese had vast numbers of soldiers deployed to counter an Allied invasion of the home islands. They knew precisely where those attacks would come, and were very well prepared. They had plans for a fighting defence of of every metre of Japanese soil. They had over 1,000 planes (and fuel) ready for kamikaze attacks against invasion force, and plenty of kaiten suicide boats as well.
The loss of Hiroshima and of Nagasaki made little difference to their plans overall.
It was the prospect of the instantaneous loss of city after city after city, to say nothing of the effect on the operational/tactical side of things, that produced a change in their thinking.
What good is a well-fortified line of defence, when one plane and one bomb can evaporate it?
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:No, my original contention was strategic use of nuclear weapons in Japan WWII, was effective as opposed to the contention that no strategic bombing was effective in WWII. The Russia stuff came later…
This just brings us back to your error in thinking that it was the loss of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that was of vital strategic importance to the Japanese war-effort.
I didn’t say anything about the Japanese war effort. It was about reducing a country into submission…
So if the allies had destroyed the two cities in question using conventional weapons the Japanese would have surrendered?
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:This just brings us back to your error in thinking that it was the loss of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that was of vital strategic importance to the Japanese war-effort.
I didn’t say anything about the Japanese war effort. It was about reducing a country into submission…
So if the allies had destroyed the two cities in question using conventional weapons the Japanese would have surrendered?
Don’t know, but that isn’t the strategy they used…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:I didn’t say anything about the Japanese war effort. It was about reducing a country into submission…
So if the allies had destroyed the two cities in question using conventional weapons the Japanese would have surrendered?
Don’t know, but that isn’t the strategy they used…
So strategic bombing is ineffective unless you use nuclear weapons for the first and only time?
Witty Rejoinder said:
So if the allies had destroyed the two cities in question using conventional weapons the Japanese would have surrendered?
I very much doubt it.
The Japanese would have considered that to being merely the cost of fighting the war.
The Tokyo firebombing of March 1945 destroyed 16 square miles (41 km 2; 10,000 acres) of the city, killed 100,000 people, left 1 million homeless, and the JIGS remained firmly committed to continuing the war.
Conventional bombing/firebombing were concepts that they could comprehend. It didn’t matter that they could mount no effective defence against such things. As long as enough of the city, and the production facilities scattered throughout, remained or could be replaced, it was fine by them.
It was the idea of instant and total destruction of the majority of an urban area that swayed some of them.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:So if the allies had destroyed the two cities in question using conventional weapons the Japanese would have surrendered?
Don’t know, but that isn’t the strategy they used…
So strategic bombing is ineffective unless you use nuclear weapons for the first and only time?
Was it a bomb? Yes. Was that bomb strategically used? Yes. Was it effective? Yes. Not sure how you’re not grasping this…
Hiroshima was chosen as the primary target since it had remained largely untouched by bombing raids, and the bomb’s effects could be clearly measured. While President Truman had hoped for a purely military target, some advisers believed that bombing an urban area might break the fighting will of the Japanese people. Hiroshima was a major port and a military headquarters, and therefore a strategic target. Also, visual bombing, rather than radar, would be used so that photographs of the damage could be taken. Since Hiroshima had not been seriously harmed by bombing raids, these photographs could present a fairly clear picture of the bomb’s damage.
Link.
The first myth was started by President Harry Truman when he announced on Aug. 9, 1945, that “the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base … because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians.” Truman argued, in other words, that Hiroshima was a military target. Although Hiroshima contained some military-related industrial facilities—an army headquarters and troop-loading docks—the vibrant city of over a quarter of a million men, women and children was hardly “a military base.” Indeed, less than 10 percent of the individuals killed on Aug. 6, 1945, were Japanese military personnel.
Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, “Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of ‘Banzai’ the troops leaving from the harbor.”
seems there are varied views.
Witty Rejoinder said:
So strategic bombing is ineffective unless you use nuclear weapons for the first and only time?
I really don’t think that we can underestimate the effect of the ‘newness’ of nuclear bombs on Japanese thinking.
They were quite used to seeing a few hundred B-29s in the skies. They dropped their bombs, some areas were damaged or destroyed, but the city was still there next day.
But…
…one plane, one bomb, one city.
There might be 200 B-29s in the sky, but only one has to drop its bomb, and that’s it? The whole city gone?
And the other 199 can come back tomorrow, and wipe out another city?
And the other 198 another city the day after that? And so on…
That’s really going to change they way you look at your country’s ability to continue.
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Don’t know, but that isn’t the strategy they used…
So strategic bombing is ineffective unless you use nuclear weapons for the first and only time?
Was it a bomb? Yes. Was that bomb strategically used? Yes. Was it effective? Yes. Not sure how you’re not grasping this…
I’m a bit slow you see. I’m taking a while to understand that you contend that strategic bombing worked just the once during the entirety of WWII.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:So strategic bombing is ineffective unless you use nuclear weapons for the first and only time?
Was it a bomb? Yes. Was that bomb strategically used? Yes. Was it effective? Yes. Not sure how you’re not grasping this…
I’m a bit slow you see. I’m taking a while to understand that you contend that strategic bombing worked just the once during the entirety of WWII.
Working even just once counteracts the supposition that it didn’t work at all…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Was it a bomb? Yes. Was that bomb strategically used? Yes. Was it effective? Yes. Not sure how you’re not grasping this…
I’m a bit slow you see. I’m taking a while to understand that you contend that strategic bombing worked just the once during the entirety of WWII.
Working even just once counteracts the supposition that it didn’t work at all…
So we can agree it’s largely ineffective.
Witty Rejoinder said:
I’m a bit slow you see. I’m taking a while to understand that you contend that strategic bombing worked just the once during the entirety of WWII.
My contention is that there was two distinct types of strategic bombing.
The ‘conventional’ type, which produced only limited success, and which governments and military commands accepted as being a price to be paid, and which could often be coped with.
The nuclear type, which was beyond the thinking of governments and commands of the time, and which was indeed strategic, and which forced a whole new mode of thinking on governments/commands.
There was no ‘tactical nuclear ‘option then. Perhaps if there had been such an option, then the Operation Downfall invasion of Japan might well have gone ahead in preference to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks.
The problem for Putin is: one you’ve said ‘yes’ to tactical deployment, how do you continue to say ‘no’ to escalated deployments?
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I’m a bit slow you see. I’m taking a while to understand that you contend that strategic bombing worked just the once during the entirety of WWII.
Working even just once counteracts the supposition that it didn’t work at all…
So we can agree it’s largely ineffective.
Maybe, but that wasn’t the contention…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:Working even just once counteracts the supposition that it didn’t work at all…
So we can agree it’s largely ineffective.
Maybe, but that wasn’t the contention…
Witty Rejoinder said: The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be. ID: 1962591
This is where we started.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:So we can agree it’s largely ineffective.
Maybe, but that wasn’t the contention…
Witty Rejoinder said: The fact that nuclear weapons were necessary to bring Japan to the table, shows how inneffective the strategic bombing of Japanese cities proved to be. ID: 1962591
This is where we started.
Sorry, I started by responding to captain_spalding. It’s not all about you…
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
If (and, i confess, i could have missed it) that was furious’s conjecture, then i have to admit that he might just be right.
Zelenskiy doesn’t seem to me to be the man to wish for his country to go down in flames. If the Russians really did start obliterating Ukrainian cites, well then, like any decent man, Zelenskiy might well say that ‘unless the West can somehow rescue us from this, then we have to submit’.
Does Russia retain the ability to obliterate cities using conventional munitions? They appear to running out.
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:No it doesn’t. Your original contention was that strategic use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine would be effective in bringing about a Ukrainian surrender. This is not the case.
If (and, i confess, i could have missed it) that was furious’s conjecture, then i have to admit that he might just be right.
Zelenskiy doesn’t seem to me to be the man to wish for his country to go down in flames. If the Russians really did start obliterating Ukrainian cites, well then, like any decent man, Zelenskiy might well say that ‘unless the West can somehow rescue us from this, then we have to submit’.
Does Russia retain the ability to obliterate cities using conventional munitions? They appear to running out.
I doubt they ever had the ability to obliterate cities with conventional missiles.
But yes, they are running out of the good stuff, and even using missiles manufactured after sanctions were imposed.
A cap on the price of Russian oil will restrict Russia’s revenues for the “illegal war in Ukraine,” the US says.
The cap, approved by Western allies on Friday, is aimed at stopping countries paying more than $60 (£48) for a barrel of seaborne Russian crude oil.
The measure – due to come into force on Monday – intensifies Western pressure on Russia over the invasion.
Ukraine said the Western-proposed cap should be halved. Russia said it would not supply to countries enforcing it.
The price cap was put forward in September by the G7 group of industrialised nations (the US, Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the EU) in a bid to hit Moscow’s ability to finance the war in Ukraine.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63843893
Rise of Russia Hardliners Sows Fear In Putin’s Elite
Kremlin tolerance of outspoken calls for ‘Stalinist’ measures sows alarm among insiders.
9 November 2022 at 05:09 GMT+11
The rise of outspoken hardliners in the Kremlin is alarming insiders fearful the Russian president will heed their calls for even more confrontation abroad and sweeping repression at home.
Senior business executives and government officials have watched with growing worry as players they once considered marginal like Yevgeny Prigozhin, known for his Wagner mercenary company and recruiting of prison inmates to fight in Ukraine, have become the public forces behind Vladimir Putin’s push to step up his increasingly all-encompassing war effort.
Prigozhin’s public calls for “urgent Stalinist repressions” against business tycoons who aren’t sufficiently enthusiastic about supporting the war effort have led some rich Russians to fear for their own safety and that of their families, they said. Prigozhin’s open attacks on top military commanders – some of whom have been subsequently removed – and the prominent Putin ally who is governor of St. Petersburg, have added to worry within the bureaucracy about the Kremlin’s unwillingness or inability to defend its own.
With Kremlin officials now describing the invasion of Ukraine as a “people’s war,” hearkening back to the World War II rhetoric of Josef Stalin, a few insiders even say they fear the purges and arbitrary arrests of the the Soviet dictator’s rule may not be far behind. Amid the call-up of 300,000 reservists, officials furtively asked each other if family members were safe, worried about too openly admitting that they’d sent their military-age children abroad.
One senior official likened the current situation to a military dictatorship but without the military coup that usually precedes it. The dominant emotion now is fear, insiders said. All those interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the risk of reprisal.
The deepening alarm about the outlook so far hasn’t coalesced into anything like internal resistance to Putin’s continuing escalation, according to insiders. Many in the leadership support what they see as an existential fight for Russia’s future and see no alternative but to keep boosting the pressure until Ukraine and its allies in the US and Europe back down. A few officials once thought of as relative liberals, such as Sergei Kiriyenko, Kremlin deputy chief of staff, have emerged as enthusiastic public advocates of the war.
While Putin has said the mobilization is over, at least for the moment, many in the business and bureaucratic elite worry the militarization of the economy and society is only accelerating. The special commission of top government and security official Putin set up to coordinate economic policy to support the defense industry and the army has been compared to Stalin’s war cabinet.
“The state has lost the monopoly on legalized violence and new operators of this former monopoly have appeared,” said Ekaterina Schulmann, a political scientist who left Russia in the early weeks of the war. “It’s strange that Putin is encouraging this.”
Nearly nine months of fighting has only hardened the view among many in the business and economic elite that Putin’s invasion was a catastrophic mistake that will doom the country to isolation and weakness. Even within the government, many quietly oppose the fight but are too terrified to speak out, according to people close to the leadership. Tycoons have sought to stay out of politics, hoping to remain on the Kremlin’s good side and keep factories running. Only a few have left the country and publicly criticized the war.
A destroyed Russian tank on the roadside in Izyum, Ukraine.Photographer: Carl Court/Getty Images
Putin has no alternative but to rely on aggressive players like Prigozhin and Ramzan Kadyrov, the strongman head of Russia’s Chechnya region who has sent thousands of troops to fight, given the poor performance so far of Russia’s regular military and tepid support for the war in his own government, according to one senior official. Both men have heavily armed forces loyal to them.
“Prigozhin is behaving like a parallel government,” said Andrei Kolesnikov of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “He may be able to compete for power, if not under Putin then after him.”
Known as ‘Putin’s chef’ for his background in the restaurant business in the president’s hometown of St. Petersburg and Kremlin catering contracts, Prigozhin, 61, has been sanctioned by the US and its allies for a range of alleged transgressions, including meddling in US elections and sending mercenaries to Africa and the Middle East. The US Federal Bureau of Investigation put him on its wanted list in 2021 for vote interference.
After years of playing down his links to the Wagner private military contracting company, Prigozhin in late September publicly confirmed he’d founded the group in 2014. On Nov. 4, he opened a glass-and-steel skyscraper in St. Petersburg called the Wagner Center. This week, he sarcastically admitted his role in meddling in US elections, saying it would continue.
He’s shown up in leaked videos from prisons around Russia where he promised inmates the chance of early release if they sign up to fight in Ukraine and last six months at the front. At the same time, he warns they’ll be summarily shot for desertion or attempting to surrender. Prigozhin’s press office declined to confirm he was in the videos, but said the person in them “looked frightfully like” him.
Over the weekend, Prigozhin announced Wagner plans to set up training centers for “militias” in border regions near the war zone. Fighters would come from “local businesses,” which would send a quarter of its male workforce to “the trenches,” he said in a commentary posted on Telegram, promising to fund the preparations himself.
Prigozhin earlier this month, filed a rare complaint with prosecutors against the governor of St. Petersburg, a Putin ally and longtime rival of the tycoon. The Kremlin’s public silence in the case has shocked insiders.
Prigozhin has appeared wearing the Hero of Russia medal, the country’s highest honor, but how frequently he and Putin meet remains unclear. Some Kremlin insiders said Prigozhin now meets with the president more often than before, while others said he’s not a member of the small group of hardliners closest to Putin. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said, “There are lots of rumors about Prigozhin. We don’t have any intention to comment on them.”
Prigozhin said he hasn’t spoken to Putin. He is seen as an ally of the new commander Putin installed to run the Ukraine operation in October, Sergei Surovikin, who was known for his harsh tactics in Syria, where they fought together with Wagner troops.
US intelligence has told President Joe Biden that Prigozhin spoke directly to Putin about the war, countering upbeat reports from the military, according to the Washington Post.
Prigozhin has made common cause with Kadyrov, the Chechen leader, with both at times questioning the skills of the military leadership, especially when Ukraine’s forces were actively retaking territory in September.
Insiders describe the Russian president as increasingly isolated, surrounded by a small group of hardliners and impervious to critical views. With its forces struggling to contain a Ukrainian counteroffensive, the Kremlin has dropped months of trying to insulate the country from the reality of the conflict.
Putin has steadily stepped up the fight since Ukrainian forces began pushing back his troops in large areas over the late summer. So far, his mobilization of reservists, sweeping expansion of missile strikes against civilian infrastructure like power plants behind the lines in Ukraine and hints of possible use of nuclear weapons haven’t succeeded in turning the tide. Ukraine’s advance is continuing, with Russia losing territory Putin claimed to annex in September.
Last month, he ordered versions of martial law across large areas of Russia.
Government technocrats, meanwhile, have been tasked with revising budget and economic plans to reflect the steadily increasing shift of resources to fund the war. They’ve also been assigned to computerize the mobilization process to avoid a repeat of the disorganization and mistakes that plagued the first round. Many officials expect another round to be announced early next year.
“The mood of doom that everything has turned out this way is very strong,” said Tatyana Stanovaya, founder of R Politik, a political consultancy.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-08/rise-of-russia-hardliner-yevgeny-prigozhin-fuels-fear-in-putin-s-elite?
Witty Rejoinder said:
Rise of Russia Hardliners Sows Fear In Putin’s Elite
Kremlin tolerance of outspoken calls for ‘Stalinist’ measures sows alarm among insiders.9 November 2022 at 05:09 GMT+11
The rise of outspoken hardliners in the Kremlin is alarming insiders fearful the Russian president will heed their calls for even more confrontation abroad and sweeping repression at home.
Senior business executives and government officials have watched with growing worry as players they once considered marginal like Yevgeny Prigozhin, known for his Wagner mercenary company and recruiting of prison inmates to fight in Ukraine, have become the public forces behind Vladimir Putin’s push to step up his increasingly all-encompassing war effort.
Prigozhin’s public calls for “urgent Stalinist repressions” against business tycoons who aren’t sufficiently enthusiastic about supporting the war effort have led some rich Russians to fear for their own safety and that of their families, they said. Prigozhin’s open attacks on top military commanders – some of whom have been subsequently removed – and the prominent Putin ally who is governor of St. Petersburg, have added to worry within the bureaucracy about the Kremlin’s unwillingness or inability to defend its own.
With Kremlin officials now describing the invasion of Ukraine as a “people’s war,” hearkening back to the World War II rhetoric of Josef Stalin, a few insiders even say they fear the purges and arbitrary arrests of the the Soviet dictator’s rule may not be far behind. Amid the call-up of 300,000 reservists, officials furtively asked each other if family members were safe, worried about too openly admitting that they’d sent their military-age children abroad.
One senior official likened the current situation to a military dictatorship but without the military coup that usually precedes it. The dominant emotion now is fear, insiders said. All those interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the risk of reprisal.
The deepening alarm about the outlook so far hasn’t coalesced into anything like internal resistance to Putin’s continuing escalation, according to insiders. Many in the leadership support what they see as an existential fight for Russia’s future and see no alternative but to keep boosting the pressure until Ukraine and its allies in the US and Europe back down. A few officials once thought of as relative liberals, such as Sergei Kiriyenko, Kremlin deputy chief of staff, have emerged as enthusiastic public advocates of the war.
While Putin has said the mobilization is over, at least for the moment, many in the business and bureaucratic elite worry the militarization of the economy and society is only accelerating. The special commission of top government and security official Putin set up to coordinate economic policy to support the defense industry and the army has been compared to Stalin’s war cabinet.
“The state has lost the monopoly on legalized violence and new operators of this former monopoly have appeared,” said Ekaterina Schulmann, a political scientist who left Russia in the early weeks of the war. “It’s strange that Putin is encouraging this.”
Nearly nine months of fighting has only hardened the view among many in the business and economic elite that Putin’s invasion was a catastrophic mistake that will doom the country to isolation and weakness. Even within the government, many quietly oppose the fight but are too terrified to speak out, according to people close to the leadership. Tycoons have sought to stay out of politics, hoping to remain on the Kremlin’s good side and keep factories running. Only a few have left the country and publicly criticized the war.
A destroyed Russian tank on the roadside in Izyum, Ukraine.Photographer: Carl Court/Getty Images
Putin has no alternative but to rely on aggressive players like Prigozhin and Ramzan Kadyrov, the strongman head of Russia’s Chechnya region who has sent thousands of troops to fight, given the poor performance so far of Russia’s regular military and tepid support for the war in his own government, according to one senior official. Both men have heavily armed forces loyal to them.“Prigozhin is behaving like a parallel government,” said Andrei Kolesnikov of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “He may be able to compete for power, if not under Putin then after him.”
Known as ‘Putin’s chef’ for his background in the restaurant business in the president’s hometown of St. Petersburg and Kremlin catering contracts, Prigozhin, 61, has been sanctioned by the US and its allies for a range of alleged transgressions, including meddling in US elections and sending mercenaries to Africa and the Middle East. The US Federal Bureau of Investigation put him on its wanted list in 2021 for vote interference.
After years of playing down his links to the Wagner private military contracting company, Prigozhin in late September publicly confirmed he’d founded the group in 2014. On Nov. 4, he opened a glass-and-steel skyscraper in St. Petersburg called the Wagner Center. This week, he sarcastically admitted his role in meddling in US elections, saying it would continue.
He’s shown up in leaked videos from prisons around Russia where he promised inmates the chance of early release if they sign up to fight in Ukraine and last six months at the front. At the same time, he warns they’ll be summarily shot for desertion or attempting to surrender. Prigozhin’s press office declined to confirm he was in the videos, but said the person in them “looked frightfully like” him.
Over the weekend, Prigozhin announced Wagner plans to set up training centers for “militias” in border regions near the war zone. Fighters would come from “local businesses,” which would send a quarter of its male workforce to “the trenches,” he said in a commentary posted on Telegram, promising to fund the preparations himself.
Prigozhin earlier this month, filed a rare complaint with prosecutors against the governor of St. Petersburg, a Putin ally and longtime rival of the tycoon. The Kremlin’s public silence in the case has shocked insiders.
Prigozhin has appeared wearing the Hero of Russia medal, the country’s highest honor, but how frequently he and Putin meet remains unclear. Some Kremlin insiders said Prigozhin now meets with the president more often than before, while others said he’s not a member of the small group of hardliners closest to Putin. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said, “There are lots of rumors about Prigozhin. We don’t have any intention to comment on them.”
Prigozhin said he hasn’t spoken to Putin. He is seen as an ally of the new commander Putin installed to run the Ukraine operation in October, Sergei Surovikin, who was known for his harsh tactics in Syria, where they fought together with Wagner troops.
US intelligence has told President Joe Biden that Prigozhin spoke directly to Putin about the war, countering upbeat reports from the military, according to the Washington Post.
Prigozhin has made common cause with Kadyrov, the Chechen leader, with both at times questioning the skills of the military leadership, especially when Ukraine’s forces were actively retaking territory in September.
Insiders describe the Russian president as increasingly isolated, surrounded by a small group of hardliners and impervious to critical views. With its forces struggling to contain a Ukrainian counteroffensive, the Kremlin has dropped months of trying to insulate the country from the reality of the conflict.
Putin has steadily stepped up the fight since Ukrainian forces began pushing back his troops in large areas over the late summer. So far, his mobilization of reservists, sweeping expansion of missile strikes against civilian infrastructure like power plants behind the lines in Ukraine and hints of possible use of nuclear weapons haven’t succeeded in turning the tide. Ukraine’s advance is continuing, with Russia losing territory Putin claimed to annex in September.
Last month, he ordered versions of martial law across large areas of Russia.
Government technocrats, meanwhile, have been tasked with revising budget and economic plans to reflect the steadily increasing shift of resources to fund the war. They’ve also been assigned to computerize the mobilization process to avoid a repeat of the disorganization and mistakes that plagued the first round. Many officials expect another round to be announced early next year.
“The mood of doom that everything has turned out this way is very strong,” said Tatyana Stanovaya, founder of R Politik, a political consultancy.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-08/rise-of-russia-hardliner-yevgeny-prigozhin-fuels-fear-in-putin-s-elite?
I wonder what the response would be if nuclear weapons were used, retaliate and its likely WWIII but you can’t really do nothing.
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Rise of Russia Hardliners Sows Fear In Putin’s Elite
Kremlin tolerance of outspoken calls for ‘Stalinist’ measures sows alarm among insiders.9 November 2022 at 05:09 GMT+11
The rise of outspoken hardliners in the Kremlin is alarming insiders fearful the Russian president will heed their calls for even more confrontation abroad and sweeping repression at home.
Senior business executives and government officials have watched with growing worry as players they once considered marginal like Yevgeny Prigozhin, known for his Wagner mercenary company and recruiting of prison inmates to fight in Ukraine, have become the public forces behind Vladimir Putin’s push to step up his increasingly all-encompassing war effort.
Prigozhin’s public calls for “urgent Stalinist repressions” against business tycoons who aren’t sufficiently enthusiastic about supporting the war effort have led some rich Russians to fear for their own safety and that of their families, they said. Prigozhin’s open attacks on top military commanders – some of whom have been subsequently removed – and the prominent Putin ally who is governor of St. Petersburg, have added to worry within the bureaucracy about the Kremlin’s unwillingness or inability to defend its own.
With Kremlin officials now describing the invasion of Ukraine as a “people’s war,” hearkening back to the World War II rhetoric of Josef Stalin, a few insiders even say they fear the purges and arbitrary arrests of the the Soviet dictator’s rule may not be far behind. Amid the call-up of 300,000 reservists, officials furtively asked each other if family members were safe, worried about too openly admitting that they’d sent their military-age children abroad.
One senior official likened the current situation to a military dictatorship but without the military coup that usually precedes it. The dominant emotion now is fear, insiders said. All those interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the risk of reprisal.
The deepening alarm about the outlook so far hasn’t coalesced into anything like internal resistance to Putin’s continuing escalation, according to insiders. Many in the leadership support what they see as an existential fight for Russia’s future and see no alternative but to keep boosting the pressure until Ukraine and its allies in the US and Europe back down. A few officials once thought of as relative liberals, such as Sergei Kiriyenko, Kremlin deputy chief of staff, have emerged as enthusiastic public advocates of the war.
While Putin has said the mobilization is over, at least for the moment, many in the business and bureaucratic elite worry the militarization of the economy and society is only accelerating. The special commission of top government and security official Putin set up to coordinate economic policy to support the defense industry and the army has been compared to Stalin’s war cabinet.
“The state has lost the monopoly on legalized violence and new operators of this former monopoly have appeared,” said Ekaterina Schulmann, a political scientist who left Russia in the early weeks of the war. “It’s strange that Putin is encouraging this.”
Nearly nine months of fighting has only hardened the view among many in the business and economic elite that Putin’s invasion was a catastrophic mistake that will doom the country to isolation and weakness. Even within the government, many quietly oppose the fight but are too terrified to speak out, according to people close to the leadership. Tycoons have sought to stay out of politics, hoping to remain on the Kremlin’s good side and keep factories running. Only a few have left the country and publicly criticized the war.
A destroyed Russian tank on the roadside in Izyum, Ukraine.Photographer: Carl Court/Getty Images
Putin has no alternative but to rely on aggressive players like Prigozhin and Ramzan Kadyrov, the strongman head of Russia’s Chechnya region who has sent thousands of troops to fight, given the poor performance so far of Russia’s regular military and tepid support for the war in his own government, according to one senior official. Both men have heavily armed forces loyal to them.“Prigozhin is behaving like a parallel government,” said Andrei Kolesnikov of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “He may be able to compete for power, if not under Putin then after him.”
Known as ‘Putin’s chef’ for his background in the restaurant business in the president’s hometown of St. Petersburg and Kremlin catering contracts, Prigozhin, 61, has been sanctioned by the US and its allies for a range of alleged transgressions, including meddling in US elections and sending mercenaries to Africa and the Middle East. The US Federal Bureau of Investigation put him on its wanted list in 2021 for vote interference.
After years of playing down his links to the Wagner private military contracting company, Prigozhin in late September publicly confirmed he’d founded the group in 2014. On Nov. 4, he opened a glass-and-steel skyscraper in St. Petersburg called the Wagner Center. This week, he sarcastically admitted his role in meddling in US elections, saying it would continue.
He’s shown up in leaked videos from prisons around Russia where he promised inmates the chance of early release if they sign up to fight in Ukraine and last six months at the front. At the same time, he warns they’ll be summarily shot for desertion or attempting to surrender. Prigozhin’s press office declined to confirm he was in the videos, but said the person in them “looked frightfully like” him.
Over the weekend, Prigozhin announced Wagner plans to set up training centers for “militias” in border regions near the war zone. Fighters would come from “local businesses,” which would send a quarter of its male workforce to “the trenches,” he said in a commentary posted on Telegram, promising to fund the preparations himself.
Prigozhin earlier this month, filed a rare complaint with prosecutors against the governor of St. Petersburg, a Putin ally and longtime rival of the tycoon. The Kremlin’s public silence in the case has shocked insiders.
Prigozhin has appeared wearing the Hero of Russia medal, the country’s highest honor, but how frequently he and Putin meet remains unclear. Some Kremlin insiders said Prigozhin now meets with the president more often than before, while others said he’s not a member of the small group of hardliners closest to Putin. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said, “There are lots of rumors about Prigozhin. We don’t have any intention to comment on them.”
Prigozhin said he hasn’t spoken to Putin. He is seen as an ally of the new commander Putin installed to run the Ukraine operation in October, Sergei Surovikin, who was known for his harsh tactics in Syria, where they fought together with Wagner troops.
US intelligence has told President Joe Biden that Prigozhin spoke directly to Putin about the war, countering upbeat reports from the military, according to the Washington Post.
Prigozhin has made common cause with Kadyrov, the Chechen leader, with both at times questioning the skills of the military leadership, especially when Ukraine’s forces were actively retaking territory in September.
Insiders describe the Russian president as increasingly isolated, surrounded by a small group of hardliners and impervious to critical views. With its forces struggling to contain a Ukrainian counteroffensive, the Kremlin has dropped months of trying to insulate the country from the reality of the conflict.
Putin has steadily stepped up the fight since Ukrainian forces began pushing back his troops in large areas over the late summer. So far, his mobilization of reservists, sweeping expansion of missile strikes against civilian infrastructure like power plants behind the lines in Ukraine and hints of possible use of nuclear weapons haven’t succeeded in turning the tide. Ukraine’s advance is continuing, with Russia losing territory Putin claimed to annex in September.
Last month, he ordered versions of martial law across large areas of Russia.
Government technocrats, meanwhile, have been tasked with revising budget and economic plans to reflect the steadily increasing shift of resources to fund the war. They’ve also been assigned to computerize the mobilization process to avoid a repeat of the disorganization and mistakes that plagued the first round. Many officials expect another round to be announced early next year.
“The mood of doom that everything has turned out this way is very strong,” said Tatyana Stanovaya, founder of R Politik, a political consultancy.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-08/rise-of-russia-hardliner-yevgeny-prigozhin-fuels-fear-in-putin-s-elite?
I wonder what the response would be if nuclear weapons were used, retaliate and its likely WWIII but you can’t really do nothing.
Battlefield nukes can creates blasts as small as a kilometre. Their use against soldiers wouldn’t be a red-line like if they were used against civilians.
Oh, dear, those fucking Ukes are being right pesky.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-06/russia-airfield-struck-governor-blames-ukraine/101741170
sibeen said:
Oh, dear, those fucking Ukes are being right pesky.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-06/russia-airfield-struck-governor-blames-ukraine/101741170
Nah, that Russia doing a false flag job.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/07/europe/zelensky-time-person-year-intl/index.html
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is named TIME magazine’s person of the year
——
Far enough. Certainly there have been worse.
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/07/europe/zelensky-time-person-year-intl/index.htmlUkrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is named TIME magazine’s person of the year
——
Far enough. Certainly there have been worse.
I wonder where Scott Morrison ranked on the list of contenders?
ABC News:
‘Belarus moves troops after Russia meeting
Russia’s ally Belarus said on Wednesday it was moving troops and military hardware to counteract what it called a threat of terrorism, amid signs Moscow could be pressuring Minsk to open a new front in the war against Ukraine.’
This does not bode well.
On the other hand, if the entire Russian military is doing so poorly against Ukraine, it might be that Ukraine could kick Belarus’s arse hard and fast, and send them home with a distinct disinclination to interfere further.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/07/europe/zelensky-time-person-year-intl/index.htmlUkrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is named TIME magazine’s person of the year
——
Far enough. Certainly there have been worse.
I wonder where Scott Morrison ranked on the list of contenders?
Bottom.
Ukraine wants a special tribunal to prosecute Putin. Can it work?
Ukraine President Zelenskyy calls on the US to support the establishment of a special tribunal for the crime of aggression.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy named Time magazine’s Person of the Year
Congratulations to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for being named Time magazine’s Person of the Year
Worst Person of the year goes to Putin.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Ukraine wants a special tribunal to prosecute Putin. Can it work?Ukraine President Zelenskyy calls on the US to support the establishment of a special tribunal for the crime of aggression.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy named Time magazine’s Person of the Year
Congratulations to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for being named Time magazine’s Person of the Year
Worst Person of the year goes to Putin.
Time doesn’t tell if they’re good or bad.
SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Ukraine wants a special tribunal to prosecute Putin. Can it work?Ukraine President Zelenskyy calls on the US to support the establishment of a special tribunal for the crime of aggression.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy named Time magazine’s Person of the Year
Congratulations to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for being named Time magazine’s Person of the Year
Worst Person of the year goes to Putin.
Time doesn’t tell if they’re good or bad.
Putin is way worse than Hitler and Trump put together.
Zelenskyy appears genuine.
Putin’s latest absurd justification for invading Ukaine
Putin makes extraordinary claim only Russia can protect Ukraine from Polish invasion
‘According to Vladimir Putin, Poland has grand designs on Ukraine and has made the bold claim that Russia is the country’s only saving grace. According to Faytuks News, Putin claims that Russia is the only guarantor of Ukraine’s territorial integrity.’
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/putin-makes-extraordinary-claim-only-russia-can-protect-ukraine-from-polish-invasion/ar-AA151KgXWoo. WOO! WOOOOOOOOOO!
This is the Ben Tre defence.
A Military Assistance Command Vietnam (MACV) officer made the famous statement (in what was probably a conscious effort to attain enduring quotability) about the destruction of the village of Ben Tre that ‘we had to destroy Ben Tre in order to save it’.
Putin: ‘We had to invade Ukraine to ensure that no-one would invade it’.
captain_spalding said:
Putin’s latest absurd justification for invading Ukaine
Putin makes extraordinary claim only Russia can protect Ukraine from Polish invasion
‘According to Vladimir Putin, Poland has grand designs on Ukraine and has made the bold claim that Russia is the country’s only saving grace. According to Putins Faykazfuk News…
FTFY
captain_spalding said:
This is the Ben Tre defence.A Military Assistance Command Vietnam (MACV) officer made the famous statement (in what was probably a conscious effort to attain enduring quotability) about the destruction of the village of Ben Tre that ‘we had to destroy Ben Tre in order to save it’.
Putin: ‘We had to invade Ukraine to ensure that no-one would invade it’.
Gaslighting to a whole new level.
It’s good to see that Putin is studying history and reflecting back to the US it’s own ridiculous statements. It would be amusing if it wasn’t so dangerous.
All the arms dealers are making a fortune out of it, and their ability to make profit is just so important to the economy. /end sarcasm…
Predictions on the year this war will end?
monkey skipper said:
Predictions on the year this war will end?
Putin > Cancer > Hospital > Window.
monkey skipper said:
Predictions on the year this war will end?
There seems to be a shift in the thinking of Western countries about providing more high-value Western arms to Ukraine, as evidence by Germany talking seriously about sending some Leopard II tanks.
If that gets going, and especially if some strike aircraft get included in the deal, it’d be a very much more capable Ukrainian military that takes the fight to the Russians when the season comes, and going on performances so far, the Russians would get a severe bum-kicking, possibly all the way back to the border.
How Putin/Russia reacts to that…
captain_spalding said:
monkey skipper said:
Predictions on the year this war will end?
There seems to be a shift in the thinking of Western countries about providing more high-value Western arms to Ukraine, as evidence by Germany talking seriously about sending some Leopard II tanks.
If that gets going, and especially if some strike aircraft get included in the deal, it’d be a very much more capable Ukrainian military that takes the fight to the Russians when the season comes, and going on performances so far, the Russians would get a severe bum-kicking, possibly all the way back to the border.
How Putin/Russia reacts to that…
Russia, as a nation, is fucked.
Russia had a negative population growth even before they sent their best and brightest off to be Himars fodder. They have no economy, and nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table so sanctions will remain in place until the Hague is satisfied.
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine. Also, Russia will be fractured into smaller ethnically unique independent nations who will happily join “The West”, leaving Russia a shadow of the mighty nation it was before Putin sealed its fate.
Dark Orange said:
captain_spalding said:
monkey skipper said:
Predictions on the year this war will end?
There seems to be a shift in the thinking of Western countries about providing more high-value Western arms to Ukraine, as evidence by Germany talking seriously about sending some Leopard II tanks.
If that gets going, and especially if some strike aircraft get included in the deal, it’d be a very much more capable Ukrainian military that takes the fight to the Russians when the season comes, and going on performances so far, the Russians would get a severe bum-kicking, possibly all the way back to the border.
How Putin/Russia reacts to that…
Russia, as a nation, is fucked.
Russia had a negative population growth even before they sent their best and brightest off to be Himars fodder. They have no economy, and nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table so sanctions will remain in place until the Hague is satisfied.
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine. Also, Russia will be fractured into smaller ethnically unique independent nations who will happily join “The West”, leaving Russia a shadow of the mighty nation it was before Putin sealed its fate.
Sounds fair
party_pants said:
Dark Orange said:
captain_spalding said:There seems to be a shift in the thinking of Western countries about providing more high-value Western arms to Ukraine, as evidence by Germany talking seriously about sending some Leopard II tanks.
If that gets going, and especially if some strike aircraft get included in the deal, it’d be a very much more capable Ukrainian military that takes the fight to the Russians when the season comes, and going on performances so far, the Russians would get a severe bum-kicking, possibly all the way back to the border.
How Putin/Russia reacts to that…
Russia, as a nation, is fucked.
Russia had a negative population growth even before they sent their best and brightest off to be Himars fodder. They have no economy, and nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table so sanctions will remain in place until the Hague is satisfied.
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine. Also, Russia will be fractured into smaller ethnically unique independent nations who will happily join “The West”, leaving Russia a shadow of the mighty nation it was before Putin sealed its fate.
Sounds fair
We can but hope.
Dark Orange says:
(Russia has)nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table…
On the contrary, Russia is a leading producer of coal, diamonds, aluminum, asbestos, gemstones, diamonds, lime, lead, gypsum, iron ore, bauxite, gallium, boron, mica, natural gas, potash, platinum, oil, rare earth metals, pig iron, peat, nitrogen, cadmium, arsenic, magnesium, molybdenum, phosphate, sulfur, titanium sponge, silicon, uranium, tellurium, vanadium, tungsten, cobalt, graphite, silver, vermiculite, selenium, rhenium, copper, and gold.
AND
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine.
The Treaty of Versailles showed the effects of punitive settlements of conflicts, and the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WW2 was aimed at avoiding a repeat of those effects (the Marsahll Plan, notably, did not extend to Japan).
If the reduction of Russian power through fragmentation into several states is a desirable thing, then imposing harsh reparations on it is more likely to solidify anti-Western sentiment and to paradoxically increase the feeling of a need for unity.
The West would have to show that it’s a more magnanimous alternative and friend than rule from Moscow, to make alignment with the West more attractive.
A new Marshall Plan, subsidised by Ukraine’s supporters would be needed. Regrettably, the West may have to not only to help pay for Ukraine’s war, but also for Ukraine’s peace.
Michael V said:
party_pants said:
Dark Orange said:Russia, as a nation, is fucked.
Russia had a negative population growth even before they sent their best and brightest off to be Himars fodder. They have no economy, and nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table so sanctions will remain in place until the Hague is satisfied.
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine. Also, Russia will be fractured into smaller ethnically unique independent nations who will happily join “The West”, leaving Russia a shadow of the mighty nation it was before Putin sealed its fate.
Sounds fair
We can but hope.
captain_spalding said:
Dark Orange says:(Russia has)nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table…
On the contrary, Russia is a leading producer of coal, diamonds, aluminum, asbestos, gemstones, diamonds, lime, lead, gypsum, iron ore, bauxite, gallium, boron, mica, natural gas, potash, platinum, oil, rare earth metals, pig iron, peat, nitrogen, cadmium, arsenic, magnesium, molybdenum, phosphate, sulfur, titanium sponge, silicon, uranium, tellurium, vanadium, tungsten, cobalt, graphite, silver, vermiculite, selenium, rhenium, copper, and gold.
AND
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine.
The Treaty of Versailles showed the effects of punitive settlements of conflicts, and the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WW2 was aimed at avoiding a repeat of those effects (the Marsahll Plan, notably, did not extend to Japan).
If the reduction of Russian power through fragmentation into several states is a desirable thing, then imposing harsh reparations on it is more likely to solidify anti-Western sentiment and to paradoxically increase the feeling of a need for unity.
The West would have to show that it’s a more magnanimous alternative and friend than rule from Moscow, to make alignment with the West more attractive.
A new Marshall Plan, subsidised by Ukraine’s supporters would be needed. Regrettably, the West may have to not only to help pay for Ukraine’s war, but also for Ukraine’s peace.
It is not now generally thought that the ToV terms were too harsh, and its impact on the German economy was minor: resentment towards it in Germany was mainly about it being a humiliation for a war in which they didn’t consider themselves to be the transgressor.
https://youtu.be/ArVAS4lOFmc
I support complete sanctions on Russia until they withdraw from the entirety of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
Dark Orange says:(Russia has)nothing that the rest of the world wants either primary resources or manufactured products to bring to the negotiating table…
On the contrary, Russia is a leading producer of coal, diamonds, aluminum, asbestos, gemstones, diamonds, lime, lead, gypsum, iron ore, bauxite, gallium, boron, mica, natural gas, potash, platinum, oil, rare earth metals, pig iron, peat, nitrogen, cadmium, arsenic, magnesium, molybdenum, phosphate, sulfur, titanium sponge, silicon, uranium, tellurium, vanadium, tungsten, cobalt, graphite, silver, vermiculite, selenium, rhenium, copper, and gold.
AND
Eventually the sanctions will have to be relaxed just so Russia can pay the massive amounts of money to rebuild Ukraine.
The Treaty of Versailles showed the effects of punitive settlements of conflicts, and the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WW2 was aimed at avoiding a repeat of those effects (the Marsahll Plan, notably, did not extend to Japan).
If the reduction of Russian power through fragmentation into several states is a desirable thing, then imposing harsh reparations on it is more likely to solidify anti-Western sentiment and to paradoxically increase the feeling of a need for unity.
The West would have to show that it’s a more magnanimous alternative and friend than rule from Moscow, to make alignment with the West more attractive.
A new Marshall Plan, subsidised by Ukraine’s supporters would be needed. Regrettably, the West may have to not only to help pay for Ukraine’s war, but also for Ukraine’s peace.
It is not now generally thought that the ToV terms were too harsh, and its impact on the German economy was minor: resentment towards it in Germany was mainly about it being a humiliation for a war in which they didn’t consider themselves to be the transgressor.
https://youtu.be/ArVAS4lOFmc
I support complete sanctions on Russia until they withdraw from the entirety of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.
I presume by that, Crimea is to be part of that entirety?
dv said:
It is not now generally thought that the ToV terms were too harsh, and its impact on the German economy was minor: resentment towards it in Germany was mainly about it being a humiliation for a war in which they didn’t consider themselves to be the transgressor.
https://youtu.be/ArVAS4lOFmc
I support complete sanctions on Russia until they withdraw from the entirety of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.
And there you have real effect of the Treaty of Versailles. It wasn’t the reparations themselves, which were imposed largely as a matter of revenge by and at the insistence of France.
It was the Treaty’s labelling of Germany as the ‘guilty party’ (although almost all of the countries of Europe were just itching for a war, given a half-plausible excuse) and its treatment as an irresponsible, untrustworthy and inherently malevolent country that produced the humiliation, and that was what provided the political fuel that extremists used to stoke the fires that produced the Nazi takeover.
The Marshall Plan was conceived with that in mind, and was created to avoid a repeat of the same scenario – even though De Gaulle and other French politicians would have been happy to go through it all again.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:It is not now generally thought that the ToV terms were too harsh, and its impact on the German economy was minor: resentment towards it in Germany was mainly about it being a humiliation for a war in which they didn’t consider themselves to be the transgressor.
https://youtu.be/ArVAS4lOFmc
I support complete sanctions on Russia until they withdraw from the entirety of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.
And there you have real effect of the Treaty of Versailles. It wasn’t the reparations themselves, which were imposed largely as a matter of revenge by and at the insistence of France.
It was the Treaty’s labelling of Germany as the ‘guilty party’ (although almost all of the countries of Europe were just itching for a war, given a half-plausible excuse) and its treatment as an irresponsible, untrustworthy and inherently malevolent country that produced the humiliation, and that was what provided the political fuel that extremists used to stoke the fires that produced the Nazi takeover.
The Marshall Plan was conceived with that in mind, and was created to avoid a repeat of the same scenario – even though De Gaulle and other French politicians would have been happy to go through it all again.
Thing is, they didn’t have the poster; what if they gave a war and nobody came?
Do you remember that one?
roughbarked said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:It is not now generally thought that the ToV terms were too harsh, and its impact on the German economy was minor: resentment towards it in Germany was mainly about it being a humiliation for a war in which they didn’t consider themselves to be the transgressor.
https://youtu.be/ArVAS4lOFmc
I support complete sanctions on Russia until they withdraw from the entirety of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.
And there you have real effect of the Treaty of Versailles. It wasn’t the reparations themselves, which were imposed largely as a matter of revenge by and at the insistence of France.
It was the Treaty’s labelling of Germany as the ‘guilty party’ (although almost all of the countries of Europe were just itching for a war, given a half-plausible excuse) and its treatment as an irresponsible, untrustworthy and inherently malevolent country that produced the humiliation, and that was what provided the political fuel that extremists used to stoke the fires that produced the Nazi takeover.
The Marshall Plan was conceived with that in mind, and was created to avoid a repeat of the same scenario – even though De Gaulle and other French politicians would have been happy to go through it all again.
Thing is, they didn’t have the poster; what if they gave a war and nobody came?
Do you remember that one?
On one hand, WW1 really was a “blame on both sides” situation.
This conflict in Ukraine really does have a single culpable party. If they are huniliated by sanctions: good. They already went to an extremist government. Hopefully this will snap them out of it. There’s a difference between reparations and sanctions, the latter of which can be clearly tied to goals
> This conflict in Ukraine really does have a single culpable party.
Yeah. The USA.
Blowing up gas pipelines underwater is just not on.
mollwollfumble said:
> This conflict in Ukraine really does have a single culpable party.Yeah. The USA.
Blowing up gas pipelines underwater is just not on.
Please show working.
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
> This conflict in Ukraine really does have a single culpable party.Yeah. The USA.
Blowing up gas pipelines underwater is just not on.
Please show working.
Just more of Moll’s knee-jerk anti-Americanism. He really is a moron.
Witty Rejoinder said:
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
> This conflict in Ukraine really does have a single culpable party.Yeah. The USA.
Blowing up gas pipelines underwater is just not on.
Please show working.
Just more of Moll’s knee-jerk anti-Americanism. He really is a moron.
He has stated in the past that he prefers strong-man autocracy to democracy so anything he says about Putin is incredibly biased by his stupidity.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
roughbarked said:Please show working.
Just more of Moll’s knee-jerk anti-Americanism. He really is a moron.
He has stated in the past that he prefers strong-man autocracy to democracy so anything he says about Putin is incredibly biased by his stupidity.
Yeah. I have noticed.
An interesting note from yesterday.. I was at a function last night with the new German Ambassador to Australia; it was his first official function since starting a few weeks ago. Anyways, his last role was EU Ambassador to Russia so obviously he’s very close to all things Ukraine. What I found most interesting was his choice of language in his speech – he called the conflict in Ukraine, and I quote, “Putin’s war of aggression”. That’s very direct language for someone that is the official voice of the German Government – so it’s pretty clear what they think about war being brought to the European continent.
diddly-squat said:
An interesting note from yesterday.. I was at a function last night with the new German Ambassador to Australia; it was his first official function since starting a few weeks ago. Anyways, his last role was EU Ambassador to Russia so obviously he’s very close to all things Ukraine. What I found most interesting was his choice of language in his speech – he called the conflict in Ukraine, and I quote, “Putin’s war of aggression”. That’s very direct language for someone that is the official voice of the German Government – so it’s pretty clear what they think about war being brought to the European continent.
Framing it this way also gives the Russians an obvious path back from ostracism. We’re blaming Putin, not Russia, for now.
dv said:
diddly-squat said:An interesting note from yesterday.. I was at a function last night with the new German Ambassador to Australia; it was his first official function since starting a few weeks ago. Anyways, his last role was EU Ambassador to Russia so obviously he’s very close to all things Ukraine. What I found most interesting was his choice of language in his speech – he called the conflict in Ukraine, and I quote, “Putin’s war of aggression”. That’s very direct language for someone that is the official voice of the German Government – so it’s pretty clear what they think about war being brought to the European continent.
Framing it this way also gives the Russians an obvious path back from ostracism. We’re blaming Putin, not Russia, for now.
The blame should always have been at the Shit Can’s door. The Russians have had little chance to turn the fan that way, until now. Let alone the rest of the world.
dv said:
diddly-squat said:An interesting note from yesterday.. I was at a function last night with the new German Ambassador to Australia; it was his first official function since starting a few weeks ago. Anyways, his last role was EU Ambassador to Russia so obviously he’s very close to all things Ukraine. What I found most interesting was his choice of language in his speech – he called the conflict in Ukraine, and I quote, “Putin’s war of aggression”. That’s very direct language for someone that is the official voice of the German Government – so it’s pretty clear what they think about war being brought to the European continent.
Framing it this way also gives the Russians an obvious path back from ostracism. We’re blaming Putin, not Russia, for now.
It’s in line with what i’ve been suggesting.
‘Blaming Russia’ is more likely to produce resentment from whoever comes after Putin, and among the majority of Russians who’ve been fed a lot of nonsense about the war by their government, and possibly believe, in an honest way, that it’s not Russia’s fault.
‘Blaming Putin’ gives some separation from responsibility for instigating the war, and allows Russians to start again without feeling that they’ve been lumbered for something in which they had no say. There then might be some chance for them to learn the truth of the matter, and accept whatever degree of involvement they can cope with.
dv said:
diddly-squat said:An interesting note from yesterday.. I was at a function last night with the new German Ambassador to Australia; it was his first official function since starting a few weeks ago. Anyways, his last role was EU Ambassador to Russia so obviously he’s very close to all things Ukraine. What I found most interesting was his choice of language in his speech – he called the conflict in Ukraine, and I quote, “Putin’s war of aggression”. That’s very direct language for someone that is the official voice of the German Government – so it’s pretty clear what they think about war being brought to the European continent.
Framing it this way also gives the Russians an obvious path back from ostracism. We’re blaming Putin, not Russia, for now.
Surely it is always the ruling person or persons who should be blamed.
I mean countries just sit there.
dv said:
diddly-squat said:An interesting note from yesterday.. I was at a function last night with the new German Ambassador to Australia; it was his first official function since starting a few weeks ago. Anyways, his last role was EU Ambassador to Russia so obviously he’s very close to all things Ukraine. What I found most interesting was his choice of language in his speech – he called the conflict in Ukraine, and I quote, “Putin’s war of aggression”. That’s very direct language for someone that is the official voice of the German Government – so it’s pretty clear what they think about war being brought to the European continent.
Framing it this way also gives the Russians an obvious path back from ostracism. We’re blaming Putin, not Russia, for now.
Surely it is always the ruling person or persons who should be blamed.
I mean countries just sit there.
Despite power cuts and blockades, Ukraine’s economy is coping
With ingenuity and resilience, the locals are muddling through
Dec 14th 2022 | KYIV
Tomas Fiala is not too fussy about his wine. But he recently opened a bottle of red that tasted particularly good. The bottle was dusty—not from a long sojourn in a French wine cellar, but from a bomb that Russia dropped on a warehouse in the outskirts of Kyiv, leased by Mr Fiala’s firm to a local distributor. The bomb smashed 1.5m bottles, but a few cases survived, were cleaned up and put on sale under the label Vyzhyvshi (survivors). “I wanted a dusty bottle,” says Mr Fiala, in a packed Italian restaurant in Kyiv.
Mr Fiala, a Czech businessman who founded Dragon Capital, now the largest Ukraine-based investment bank, has been working in Ukraine since 1996. He is a survivor, too. His investments span media, commercial property, shopping malls and agricultural machinery. “On February 24th when Russia attacked, I thought was it,” he says. But he decided to stay: “You have to be on the ground to make the right decisions.” In March he recorded a 90% fall in revenue. But by September he had recovered 50-70% of that. Some of his investments, such as malls in Lviv, are back at pre-war levels.
Then Russia started hitting Ukraine’s critical infrastructure. The country’s electricity-generation capacity has been cut by half. Ukraine’s gdp is expected to contract by between 32% and 37% this year. But Mr Fiala, like many others, keeps on going. His plant in Poltava, in central Ukraine, which makes equipment for grain-handling and storage, turned to night shifts to avoid power cuts. When the lights go off, it switches to diesel generators (Ukraine imported $120m-worth of those in October alone). That hugely increases costs, but it keeps the machines running.
Having failed to conquer Ukraine or erase its identity, Vladimir Putin is trying to crush its economy. First he tried to blockade its ports and halt shipments of grain, its biggest export. But that hurt food-importing countries everywhere, and risked causing Mr Putin serious diplomatic damage. So he relented, and in July a deal brokered by Turkey and the un let grain shipments resume from three large Ukrainian ports. In October Ukraine exported 4.2m tonnes through those ports and 2.8m by rail and road. But last month Russia started insisting on more rigorous (ie, slower) inspections of ships, so Ukraine could only export 2.7m tonnes by sea.
At the same time Russia started bombing electricity infrastructure, forcing shutdowns in the steel and iron-ore industry, Ukraine’s second-biggest exporter. Furnaces were turned off at the huge ArcelorMittal plant in Kryvy Rih, the birthplace of President Volodymyr Zelensky. It was the largest employer by far in the city, which had a pre-war population of 600,000. Kryvy Rih is now largely dark, thanks to Russian missiles and drones. But shops, cafés and restaurants are keeping their lights on with generators. In a restaurant called Fish Place, on a dark street in Kryvy Rih, aproned staff were opening oysters and serving chopped herring to local families.
In Kyiv most small and medium-sized businesses are running at full capacity. While most residential areas go without power for hours, the centre is buzzing with the sound of generators. Customers flock to shops for warmth and light. A swanky central department store, tsum, is heaving. Kyiv’s opera house performs Verdi to an audience limited to 462 people by the size of its bomb shelters.
Retaining a semblance of normal life is crucial to the wartime economy, employment and the spirits of Ukrainian people, says Serhiy Marchenko, Ukraine’s finance minister: “Domestic consumption is keeping our economy afloat.” Domestic vat receipts are 40% higher than in the early months of the war, he says. The economy is resilient because Ukrainians are, he says, and because donors have been generous.
Ukraine has been getting $3bn-3.5bn a month from its Western allies since the start of the war. America gives mostly grants; Europe, cheap loans. These funds have covered just over half of Ukraine’s deficit. The eu recently approved another €18bn ($19bn) for next year. “We have more predictability than we had a few months ago and I can plan the budget a year ahead,” Mr Marchenko says.
Another big export-earner, information technology, depends on generators and internet connections. Software engineers cannot work from home because of blackouts. Men of military age are barred from leaving the country. So it workers huddle in co-working spaces scattered across Kyiv. Demand for desks is hotter than it has ever been, says Oleksandr Kuhuk, the sales manager at Creative Quarter, which has three different locations in Kyiv. In a pastel-coloured funky space overlooking the Dnieper river, 20- to 30-year-olds are quietly tapping away at their computers.
“November was our record month. I don’t even need to do any marketing,” says Mr Kuhuk. His sales have grown by 200% year-on-year, he says. What makes his workspace attractive is not video-game consoles or fancy coffee machines, but back-up generators and Wi-Fi points, 1,000 bottles of water (enough for a week) and a large bomb shelter equipped with chairs and Wi-Fi, so people can carry on working during air-raid alerts. Some come with children and dogs. Many stay the night. Co-working often turns into co-living.
“The structure of our economy is changing,” says Mr Marchenko. Ukraine’s post-Soviet economy was dominated by large enterprises, most of them based on Soviet-era factories and energy pipelines that produced some 90% of output and were largely controlled by Ukrainian oligarchs. His hope is that the war will in the end make Ukraine much less dependent on oligarchs or Russia. First though, the country must survive.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/12/14/despite-power-cuts-and-blockades-ukraines-economy-is-coping?
No conclusive evidence Russia is behind Nord Stream attack
World leaders were quick to blame Moscow for explosions along the undersea natural gas pipelines. But some Western officials now doubt the Kremlin was responsible.
By Shane Harris, John Hudson, Missy Ryan and Michael Birnbaum
December 21, 2022 at 2:00 a.m. EST
After explosions in late September severely damaged undersea pipelines built to carry natural gas from Russia to Europe, world leaders quickly blamed Moscow for a brazen and dangerous act of sabotage. With winter approaching, it appeared the Kremlin intended to strangle the flow of energy to millions across the continent, an act of “blackmail,” some leaders said, designed to threaten countries into withdrawing their financial and military support for Ukraine.
But now, after months of investigation, numerous officials privately say that Russia may not be to blame after all for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines.
“There is no evidence at this point that Russia was behind the sabotage,” said one European official, echoing the assessment of 23 diplomatic and intelligence officials in nine countries interviewed in recent weeks.
Some went so far as to say they didn’t think Russia was responsible. Others who still consider Russia a prime suspect said positively attributing the attack — to any country — may be impossible.
In the months after the explosions, which resulted in what was probably one of the largest-ever single releases of methane gas, investigators have combed through debris and analyzed explosives residue recovered from the bed of the Baltic Sea. Seismologists have pinpointed the timing of three explosions on Sept. 26, which caused four leaks on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines.
No one doubts that the damage was deliberate. An official with the German government, which is conducting its own investigation, said explosives appear to have been placed on the outside of the structures.
But even those with inside knowledge of the forensic details don’t conclusively tie Russia to the attack, officials said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to share information about the progress of the investigation, some of which is based on classified intelligence.
“Forensics on an investigation like this are going to be exceedingly difficult,” said a senior U.S. State Department official.
The United States routinely intercepts the communications of Russian officials and military forces, a clandestine intelligence effort that helped accurately forecast Moscow’s February invasion of Ukraine. But so far, analysts have not heard or read statements from the Russian side taking credit or suggesting that they’re trying to cover up their involvement, officials said.
Attributing the attack has been challenging from the start. The first explosion occurred in the middle of the night to the southeast of the Danish island of Bornholm. Scientists detected two additional explosions more than 12 hours later to the northeast of the island.
Given the relatively shallow depth of the damaged pipelines — approximately 80 yards at the site of one explosion — a number of different actors could theoretically have pulled off the attack, possibly with the use of submersible drones or with the aid of surface ships, officials said. The list of suspects isn’t limited only to countries that possess manned submarines or deep-sea demolitions expertise.
The leaks occurred in the exclusive economic zones of Sweden and Denmark. European nations have been attempting to map which ships were in the region in the days before the explosions, in the hope of winnowing the field of suspects.
“We know that this amount of explosives has to be a state-level actor,” Finnish Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto said in an interview this month. “It’s not just a single fisherman who decides to put the bomb there. It’s very professional.”
Regardless of the perpetrator, Haavisto said that for Finland, which isn’t a Nord Stream client, “The lesson learned is that it shows how vulnerable our energy network, our undersea cables, internet … are for all kinds of terrorists.”
Russia remains a key suspect, however, partly because of its recent history of bombing civilian infrastructure in Ukraine and propensity for unconventional warfare. It’s not such a leap to think that the Kremlin would attack Nord Stream, perhaps to undermine NATO resolve and peel off allies that depend on Russian energy sources, officials said.
But a handful of officials expressed regret that so many world leaders pointed the finger at Moscow without considering other countries, as well as extremist groups, that might have the capability and the motive to conduct the attack.
“The governments that waited to comment before drawing conclusions played this right,” said one European official.
Condemnation of Moscow was swift and widespread. On Sept. 30, four days after the explosions, U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm told the BBC it “seems” Russia was to blame. “It is highly unlikely that these incidents are coincidence,” she said.
German Economy Minister Robert Habeck also implied that Russia, which has consistently denied responsibility, was responsible for the explosions. “Russia saying ‘It wasn’t us’ is like saying ‘I’m not the thief,’” Habeck told reporters in early October.
An adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky called the ruptures “a terrorist attack planned by Russia and an act of aggression toward .”
“No one on the European side of the ocean is thinking this is anything other than Russian sabotage,” a senior European environmental official told The Washington Post in September.
But as the investigation drags on, skeptics point out that Moscow had little to gain from damaging pipelines that fed Western Europe natural gas from Russia and generated billions of dollars in annual revenue. The Nord Stream projects had stirred controversy and debate for years because they yoked Germany and other European countries to Russian energy sources.
“The rationale that it was Russia never made sense to me,” said one Western European official.
Nearly a month before the rupture, the Russian energy giant Gazprom stopped flows on Nord Stream 1, hours after the Group of Seven industrialized nations announced a forthcoming price cap on Russian oil, a move intended to put a dent in the Kremlin’s treasury. During Putin’s long stretch in office, the Kremlin has used energy as an instrument of political and economic leverage, employing the threat of cutoffs to bully countries into going along with its goals, officials said. It didn’t make sense that Russia would abandon that leverage.
Germany had halted final authorization of Nord Stream 2 just days before Russian forces invaded Ukraine. But the pipeline was intact and had already been pumped full with 300 million cubic meters of natural gas to ready it for operations.
European and U.S. officials who continue to believe that Russia is the most likely culprit say it had at least one plausible motive: Attacking Nord Stream 1 and 2, which weren’t generating any revenue to fill Russian coffers, demonstrated that pipelines, cables and other undersea infrastructure were vulnerable and that the countries that supported Ukraine risked paying a terrible price.
Haavisto noted that Finland has taken steps to strengthen infrastructure security since the explosions. Germany and Norway have asked NATO to coordinate efforts to protect critical infrastructure such as communication lines in the North Sea and gas infrastructure.
“But it’s at the same time true that we cannot control all the pipelines, all the cables, all the time, 24/7,” Haavisto said. “You have to be prepared. If something happens you have to think, where are the alternatives?”
The war prompted European countries to build up stockpiles of alternative energy, making them less dependent on Russian sources. But the Nord Stream attack has left many governments uneasy about the lengths to which Russia or other actors might go.
Swedish Foreign Minister Tobias Billstrom said his government was waiting for the country’s independent prosecutor’s office to complete its investigation into the explosions before reaching a conclusion. Sweden, along with Denmark, increased its naval patrols right after the attack.
“We have spoken about as part of the view that the security situation in the northern part of Europe has deteriorated following Russia’s aggression on Ukraine, with all the implications that it has,” Billstrom said in an interview this month.
The prospect that the explosions may never be definitively attributed is unsettling for nations like Norway, which has 9,000 kilometers (5,500 miles) of undersea gas pipelines to Europe.
A Norwegian official said Norway is attempting to strengthen security around its own pipelines and broader critical infrastructure. It is investing in surveillance; working with Britain, France and Germany to intensify naval patrols; and trying to find ways to keep oil and gas flowing in the event of another attack.
Norway is also investigating the appearance of unidentified aerial drones around its oil and gas facilities around the time of the Nord Stream attacks.
“It’s not a good thing,” the official said, of the possibility that the Nord Stream explosions may remain unsolved. “Whoever did it may get away with it.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/21/russia-nord-stream-explosions/?
Zelensky’s speech to the US Congress, in full. Rather Churchillian, and it embodies mor than a couple of truths:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/us/politics/zelensky-speech-transcript.html
SCIENCE said:
Xmas greetings from Bakhmut:
https://i.imgur.com/zOjeBMP.mp4
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Almost an admission of a one way journey.
monkey skipper said:
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Almost an admission of a one way journey.
Not exactly comforting is it
Cymek said:
monkey skipper said:
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Almost an admission of a one way journey.
Not exactly comforting is it
Russian Sperm Bank “Comrade here is your container, here is a copy of Бабушка обнаженная ежемесячно, when you are finished bring me container”
monkey skipper said:
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Almost an admission of a one way journey.
What type of war is Putin going to wage that means his solider’s sperm won’t be viable at the end of the process? (aside from them being dead)
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Whoopee chook.
roughbarked said:
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Whoopee chook.
and then they’ll send it around the world just like the agriculturalists did for decades
roughbarked said:
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Whoopee chook.
I mean I’m sure that thousands of Russian soldiers already have had their sperm frozen out in the field this winter.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/12/29/russian-oligarchs-deaths-putin-russia-ukraine-bell-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn
Mysterious circumstances surround deaths of these Russian tycoons
Anderson Cooper 360
CNN’s Melissa Bell looks at the deaths of multiple members of the “Russian elite” since the war in Ukraine began.
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/12/29/russian-oligarchs-deaths-putin-russia-ukraine-bell-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnnMysterious circumstances surround deaths of these Russian tycoons
Anderson Cooper 360
CNN’s Melissa Bell looks at the deaths of multiple members of the “Russian elite” since the war in Ukraine began.
And most of them aren’t even rappers, so yeah unusual alright.
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/12/29/russian-oligarchs-deaths-putin-russia-ukraine-bell-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnnMysterious circumstances surround deaths of these Russian tycoons
Anderson Cooper 360
CNN’s Melissa Bell looks at the deaths of multiple members of the “Russian elite” since the war in Ukraine began.
Dodgy sausage did the last one in
Cymek said:
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/12/29/russian-oligarchs-deaths-putin-russia-ukraine-bell-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnnMysterious circumstances surround deaths of these Russian tycoons
Anderson Cooper 360
CNN’s Melissa Bell looks at the deaths of multiple members of the “Russian elite” since the war in Ukraine began.
Dodgy sausage did the last one in
What did Putin dodge it up with?
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
dv said:
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/12/29/russian-oligarchs-deaths-putin-russia-ukraine-bell-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnnMysterious circumstances surround deaths of these Russian tycoons
Anderson Cooper 360
CNN’s Melissa Bell looks at the deaths of multiple members of the “Russian elite” since the war in Ukraine began.
Dodgy sausage did the last one in
What did Putin dodge it up with?
Polonium ?
LOL
I think they are all rugged up in their foxholes sleeping now.
And when they are not sleeping they’ll be making preparations for the spring offensive after the thaw.
https://interstellarvalley.com/2023/01/05/good-tank-for-ukraine/
An interesting idea.
sibeen said:
https://interstellarvalley.com/2023/01/05/good-tank-for-ukraine/An interesting idea.
It makes sense.
Various sources are saying they expect Wagner Group mercenaries to capture the town of Soledar within the next few hours. Soledar is a salt mining town of about 10000 people.
It is a satellite of the provincial city of Bakhmut, with a population of 70000, and it seems likely Wagner will try to use it as a base to attack Bakhmut.
‘Polish President Andrzej Duda has said that Poland will send a company of German-made Leopard main battle tanks to Ukraine.’
‘https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3650612-poland-to-send-germanmade-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine.html’
Crude reality: Oil sanctions on Russia are having a big effect
Stephen Bartholomeusz
Senior business columnist
January 11, 2023 — 11.59am
Russia’s oil is now trading at less than half the international price. The West’s price cap and supporting sanctions, introduced only a month ago, appear to be biting.
Over the past few days, Russia’s flagship product, Urals crude, has traded around $US37.80 ($54.80) a barrel even as the international benchmark, Brent crude, has been trading at just under $US80 a barrel. That’s a 53 per cent discount.
Before the G7 economies and Australia imposed the $US60-a-barrel cap on the price of Russian oil on December 5, Urals grade oil was trading at a 30 to 35 per cent discount to Brent crude. Before Russia invaded Ukraine, the discount was only about 6 per cent.
With Western financial and non-financial sanctions and the withdrawal of Western companies and their capital and technologies impacting its industry, Russia’s oil revenues were its lifeline last year.
The average price it received of about $US76 a barrel offset a 122 million-barrel reduction in oil sales since the invasion as the United States, Europe and others stopped buying its oil. It redirected its sales to China, India and Turkey, albeit at discounted prices and with higher transport costs because of the distance to those markets relative to the former sales into Europe.
Now those sales are at or below Russia’s production costs, generally thought to between $US30 and $US40 a barrel. Freight costs for Russian oil, below $US3 a barrel before the invasion, are now three or four times that amount.
Russia has said it would monitor the oil market this quarter before deciding how to respond to the price cap.
It would appear that the diminished pool of remaining buyers are exploiting the leverage provided by their status and the G7 sanctions to drive hard bargains, in the knowledge that Russia is dependent on its oil income to finance the war in Ukraine.
Even with the solid oil and gas revenues it generated last year, Russia incurred a budget deficit of $US56 billion last month, wiping out a surplus for the first 11 months of the year and producing its worst budget outcome since the initial impact of the pandemic. It’s only the second deficit Russia has experienced in the post-Soviet era.
While it is budgeting for a 2 per cent surplus this year – based on a forecast of $US70 a barrel for its oil — that would be eliminated if its oil continued to fetch current prices.
The G7 sanctions are backed by the withdrawal of insurance and financing from tankers carrying oil sold above the $US60-a-barrel cap. When they were implemented last month, Russia said it would refuse to sell its oil to anyone who observed the cap, or even referenced it in their shipping documentation.
Given the paucity of buyers and, it would appear, the paucity of ship owners willing to transport Russian crude even within the cap, for fear that they might get caught up in the sanctions, that’s not much of a threat.
More potent would be the potential, which Russian energy officials have floated, for Russia to cut its production.
There have been suggestions by those officials that it could remove 500,000 to 700,00 barrels a day from the global market, which would conventionally have a very material impact on international prices. It has also mooted putting a floor price on its exports.
How effective responses like those would be is difficult to assess, given the uncertainties surrounding the outlook for the global economy.
If China is able to negotiate its current wave of COVID-19 infections and reopen its economy successfully, that would help demand for Russian oil. With the World Bank cutting its forecast for global growth this year from 2.9 per cent to 1.7 per cent, however, the global economic outlook is grim, with flow-on consequences for demand for oil and oil prices.
Gas prices in Europe, which soared in the aftermath of the invasion, are now back to pre-invasion levels,
Russia has said it would monitor the oil market this quarter before deciding how to respond to the price cap.
It is conceivable that it might seek to enlist the support of the OPEC+ cartel (of which it is a member) to try to increase the impact of any production cuts of its own.
It has said any measures it takes would be in line with market-based principles, which presumably means responding to weak demand by withdrawing supply.
There had been those within the G7 discussions who argued for a much lower cap than the $US60 a barrel settled on, and the level of the cap will be reviewed regularly.
At this early stage, however, it would appear that the combination of the chilling effect of the sanctions – ship owners will be fearful of transporting oil without insurance and the UK, US and Europeans have a stranglehold on that market – and the weakening global economy and oil prices have made any discussion about lowering the cap irrelevant.
Russia’s other big energy export, gas, also isn’t faring well. Between Russia throttling supply and the Europeans (who were reliant on Russia gas before the invasion) slashing their purchases, those revenues have also been severely reduced.
An unusually mild winter so far, gas storage at almost full capacity and a desperate scramble by the Europeans to secure LNG, virtually regardless of price, has — with measures to reduce consumption — blunted the political and economic threats posed to Europe by its willingness to continue supporting Ukraine and its former reliance on Russian gas.
Gas prices in Europe, which soared in the aftermath of the invasion, are now back to pre-invasion levels, and the Europeans are expressing confidence that, not only will they get through this northern winter without an energy crisis-inspired meltdown of their economies but they will be in a good starting position for winter 2024.
That would undercut Russia’s leverage and its hope that energy shortages and the social and political pressures they might generate would undermine Europe’s military and financial support for Ukraine.
The myriad sanctions the West imposed on Russia last year were always going to take quite some time to have material impacts, given their nature and the progressive way they were rolled out and the fact that Russia started the war with very strong financial foundations. The effects were always going to be attritional rather than immediate.
Russia got through last year, with the help of strong oil prices and revenues, in relatively good shape even though the effects of the West’s measures began to show up late in the year. This year might be rather more challenging.
https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/crude-reality-oil-sanctions-on-russia-are-having-a-big-effect-20230111-p5cbqd.html
Ukraine live briefing: Dnipro missile attack kills at least 5 at apartment block, officials say; Kyiv also hit
By Siobhán O’Grady, Anastacia Galouchka, Isabelle Khurshudyan, Ellen Francis, Niha Masih, Andrea Salcedo and David L. Stern
Updated January 14, 2023 at 12:50 p.m. EST|Published January 14, 2023 at 2:07 a.m. EST
DNIPRO, Ukraine — Dozens of first responders scrambled through a huge pile of rubble in the wreckage of an apartment block Saturday, searching for survivors in the aftermath of an attack that killed at least five people. Ukrainian officials blamed a Russian missile strike. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky shared a video of the destruction and vowed to find and punish “everyone involved” in the strike.
Other cities across Ukraine reported explosions Saturday after a morning attack in the capital that awoke residents before air sirens could be heard. Ukraine’s air force said the first Kyiv attack was “most likely” conducted by Russian ballistic missiles.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/01/14/russia-ukraine-war-latest-updates-soledar/?
…
I bet Russia has run out of cruise missiles and drones so has to resort the ballistic missiles.
Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sources
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sources
—-
When did they switch to hexadecimal?
sibeen said:
Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sourceshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports
Good news.
Take that Putin.
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:
Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sourcesGood news.
Take that Putin.
¿ wait they’re sending German Leopard tanks for Putin to take ?
SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:
Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sourcesGood news.
Take that Putin.
¿ wait they’re sending German Leopard tanks for Putin to take ?
He’ll have to burn them First.
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sourceshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports
Good news.
Take that Putin.
Wookie should be along at any minute to remind us that Leopard IIs (55 tonnes) are just too heavy for the Ukrainian conditions, unlike the Russian T-80s (46 tonnes), and that all the Leopards will be hopelessly bogged in a matter of minutes.
Which is to ignore that the ground pressure of a Leopard II is 0.83 kq per sq cm, as opposed to 0.92 kg for the T-80.
So, the Leopards are heavier, but have a lighter footprint.
SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:
Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sourcesGood news.
Take that Putin.
¿ wait they’re sending German Leopard tanks for Putin to take ?
Leopard IIs have been around for quite a while now.
Their ‘secrets’ are well known to any organisation with the will to know, and a reasonable expenses budget.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
sibeen said:
Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports
Germany will send its 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sourceshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports
Good news.
Take that Putin.
Wookie should be along at any minute to remind us that Leopard IIs (55 tonnes) are just too heavy for the Ukrainian conditions, unlike the Russian T-80s (46 tonnes), and that all the Leopards will be hopelessly bogged in a matter of minutes.
Which is to ignore that the ground pressure of a Leopard II is 0.83 kq per sq cm, as opposed to 0.92 kg for the T-80.
So, the Leopards are heavier, but have a lighter footprint.
maybe they’re expecting them to be delivered on their sides
SCIENCE said:
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Good news.
Take that Putin.
Wookie should be along at any minute to remind us that Leopard IIs (55 tonnes) are just too heavy for the Ukrainian conditions, unlike the Russian T-80s (46 tonnes), and that all the Leopards will be hopelessly bogged in a matter of minutes.
Which is to ignore that the ground pressure of a Leopard II is 0.83 kq per sq cm, as opposed to 0.92 kg for the T-80.
So, the Leopards are heavier, but have a lighter footprint.
maybe they’re expecting them to be delivered on their sides
The Russian tanks have a feature by which their weight can be quickly reduced.
Their turrets come off.
Tau.Neutrino said:
analysis: Drafting half a million more soldiers into Russia’s war in Ukraine could backfire on Vladimir Putin
Yeah, conscripting people out the big cities is a whole different story.
Drafting peasants from the village of Отверстие дерьма is one thing. Firstly, they’re just uncultured slobs in the eyes of the inhabitants of Moscow and St. Petersburg, so they’re barely worth consideration at all. Secondly, even if the babushkas and grazhdanye of Shit Hole get upset about it, their protests aren’t likely to make the news in those cities.
Start slapping ushankas on the heads of the valued sons of the metropolitan elite (as they think of themselves), and giving them an AK-47 that’s been in storage since 1965, and the natives might get a bit restless.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
analysis: Drafting half a million more soldiers into Russia’s war in Ukraine could backfire on Vladimir Putin
Yeah, conscripting people out the big cities is a whole different story.
Drafting peasants from the village of Отверстие дерьма is one thing. Firstly, they’re just uncultured slobs in the eyes of the inhabitants of Moscow and St. Petersburg, so they’re barely worth consideration at all. Secondly, even if the babushkas and grazhdanye of Shit Hole get upset about it, their protests aren’t likely to make the news in those cities.
Start slapping ushankas on the heads of the valued sons of the metropolitan elite (as they think of themselves), and giving them an AK-47 that’s been in storage since 1965, and the natives might get a bit restless.
They are already beginning to stir.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
analysis: Drafting half a million more soldiers into Russia’s war in Ukraine could backfire on Vladimir Putin
Yeah, conscripting people out the big cities is a whole different story.
Drafting peasants from the village of Отверстие дерьма is one thing. Firstly, they’re just uncultured slobs in the eyes of the inhabitants of Moscow and St. Petersburg, so they’re barely worth consideration at all. Secondly, even if the babushkas and grazhdanye of Shit Hole get upset about it, their protests aren’t likely to make the news in those cities.
Start slapping ushankas on the heads of the valued sons of the metropolitan elite (as they think of themselves), and giving them an AK-47 that’s been in storage since 1965, and the natives might get a bit restless.
Most of the Russian conscript training is only around two weeks, compared to six months for basic training.
As one Ukraine soldier said, “its like shooting zombies”.
Both Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 tanks will be sent to Ukraine.
Ukraine says Russia has had its worst day so far for casualties.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-08/ukraine-says-russians-endure-deadliest-day/101945078
The Leopard 1 tanks have a 105mm gun, not as big as on most newer tanks, but its a version of the very reliable British-origin L7 gun, and ammunition includes APDS, APFSDS, HEAT and smoke rounds.
They have MBU multi-fuel engines.
Used with some degree of skill, in the right circumstance, they’re still very effective tanks.
‘Inexperienced Russian Troops Ditched 30 Vehicles After Failed Assault: U.K.’
In its daily update on the Ukraine war on Friday, the British Ministry of Defence tweeted: “Russian units have made advances around the western edge of the town of Vuhledar, where they re-launched offensive operations in late January 2023.
“However, Russian units have likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar as inexperienced units have been committed. Russian troops likely fled and abandoned at least 30 mostly intact armoured vehicles in a single incident after a failed assault.”
https://www.newsweek.com/inexperienced-russian-troops-ditched-30-vehicles-after-failed-assault-u-k-1780435
captain_spalding said:
‘Inexperienced Russian Troops Ditched 30 Vehicles After Failed Assault: U.K.’In its daily update on the Ukraine war on Friday, the British Ministry of Defence tweeted: “Russian units have made advances around the western edge of the town of Vuhledar, where they re-launched offensive operations in late January 2023.
“However, Russian units have likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar as inexperienced units have been committed. Russian troops likely fled and abandoned at least 30 mostly intact armoured vehicles in a single incident after a failed assault.”
https://www.newsweek.com/inexperienced-russian-troops-ditched-30-vehicles-after-failed-assault-u-k-1780435
I heard some military expert on the Times Radio YouTube channel saying that Ukraine has captured more Russia equipment than they started the war with.
captain_spalding said:
‘Inexperienced Russian Troops Ditched 30 Vehicles After Failed Assault: U.K.’In its daily update on the Ukraine war on Friday, the British Ministry of Defence tweeted: “Russian units have made advances around the western edge of the town of Vuhledar, where they re-launched offensive operations in late January 2023.
“However, Russian units have likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar as inexperienced units have been committed. Russian troops likely fled and abandoned at least 30 mostly intact armoured vehicles in a single incident after a failed assault.”
https://www.newsweek.com/inexperienced-russian-troops-ditched-30-vehicles-after-failed-assault-u-k-1780435
All donations gratefully accepted.
Russia’s losses around Vuhledar renew questions about its ability to sustain a fresh offensive.
By Marc Santora
Feb. 15, 2023
KYIV, Ukraine — As Russia steps up its offensive in eastern Ukraine, weeks of failed attacks on a Ukrainian stronghold have left two Russian brigades in tatters, raised questions about Moscow’s military tactics and renewed doubts about its ability to maintain sustained, large-scale ground assaults.
The fighting has also come at a cost for Ukraine, which is expending vast amounts of ammunition to repel Russia’s growing numbers of ground troops, often supported by heavy armor, artillery and close air support. That has added urgency to Ukraine’s pleas for more ammunition, while Western allies this week expressed increasing concern about their ability to meet the demand.
The battle around the Ukrainian city of Vuhledar, which sits at the intersection of the eastern front in the Donetsk region and the southern front in the Zaporizhzhia region, is viewed as one of Moscow’s opening moves of a nascent spring offensive. Though it has been playing out for weeks, the scale of Russia’s losses is only beginning to come into focus.
Accounts from Ukrainian and Western officials, Ukrainian soldiers, captured Russian soldiers, Russian military bloggers, and video and satellite images all paint a picture of a faltering Russian campaign that continues to be plagued by dysfunction.
Moscow has rushed tens of thousands more troops, many of them inexperienced new recruits, to the front line in recent weeks as President Vladimir V. Putin’s forces seek to demonstrate progress before the anniversary of his full-scale invasion on Feb. 24.
Western officials estimate that the vast majority of Russia’s army is now fighting in Ukraine. Britain’s defense secretary, Ben Wallace, told the BBC on Wednesday that “97 percent of the Russian army” is in Ukraine. U.S. defense officials estimate that about 80 percent of Russia’s ground forces are dedicated to the war effort.
In attempting to capture Vuhledar, which lies near a rail line Russia uses to supply its forces, “the enemy suffered critical losses,” Col. Oleksii Dmytrashkivskyi, a spokesman for Ukrainian military forces in the area, said in an interview.
The Russians failed to take into account the terrain — open fields laden with mines — or the strength of the Ukrainian forces, he said. Two of Russia’s most elite brigades — the 155th and 40th Naval Infantry Brigades — were decimated in Vuhledar, Colonel Dmytrashkivskyi said.
In one week alone, the Ukrainian General Staff, which is responsible for military strategy, estimated that Russia lost at least 130 armored vehicles, including 36 tanks. That estimate has been supported by accounts from Russian military bloggers, whose reporting on the war is influential in Russia, and by drone footage of the destruction reviewed by independent military analysts.
Mr. Wallace on Wednesday cited reports that “a whole Russian brigade was effectively annihilated” in Vuhledar, where he said that Moscow “lost over 1,000 people in two days.” The British defense intelligence agency reported last week that Russian units had “likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar,” abandoning at least 30 armored vehicles after one failed assault.
Mr. Wallace told LBC News, a British news outlet, that the losses in Vuhledar showed the result of “a president and a Russian general staff that defies reality or ignores reality and simply doesn’t care how many people they are killing of their own, let alone of the people they are trying to oppress.”
Many of the captured soldiers were newly mobilized under a call-up Mr. Putin announced last September of some 300,000 recruits, while others had been recruited by the Wagner mercenary group, according to Ukrainian and Russian accounts.
In recent weeks, a rivalry between Wagner forces and the regular Russian army has opened up, with the mercenary group claiming that its fighters are more capable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/world/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-offensive.html?
Gave the Ukrainians the secret to water powered vehicles no fuel shortage for them
Witty Rejoinder said:
Russia’s losses around Vuhledar renew questions about its ability to sustain a fresh offensive.By Marc Santora
Feb. 15, 2023KYIV, Ukraine — As Russia steps up its offensive in eastern Ukraine, weeks of failed attacks on a Ukrainian stronghold have left two Russian brigades in tatters, raised questions about Moscow’s military tactics and renewed doubts about its ability to maintain sustained, large-scale ground assaults.
The fighting has also come at a cost for Ukraine, which is expending vast amounts of ammunition to repel Russia’s growing numbers of ground troops, often supported by heavy armor, artillery and close air support. That has added urgency to Ukraine’s pleas for more ammunition, while Western allies this week expressed increasing concern about their ability to meet the demand.
The battle around the Ukrainian city of Vuhledar, which sits at the intersection of the eastern front in the Donetsk region and the southern front in the Zaporizhzhia region, is viewed as one of Moscow’s opening moves of a nascent spring offensive. Though it has been playing out for weeks, the scale of Russia’s losses is only beginning to come into focus.
Accounts from Ukrainian and Western officials, Ukrainian soldiers, captured Russian soldiers, Russian military bloggers, and video and satellite images all paint a picture of a faltering Russian campaign that continues to be plagued by dysfunction.
Moscow has rushed tens of thousands more troops, many of them inexperienced new recruits, to the front line in recent weeks as President Vladimir V. Putin’s forces seek to demonstrate progress before the anniversary of his full-scale invasion on Feb. 24.
Western officials estimate that the vast majority of Russia’s army is now fighting in Ukraine. Britain’s defense secretary, Ben Wallace, told the BBC on Wednesday that “97 percent of the Russian army” is in Ukraine. U.S. defense officials estimate that about 80 percent of Russia’s ground forces are dedicated to the war effort.
In attempting to capture Vuhledar, which lies near a rail line Russia uses to supply its forces, “the enemy suffered critical losses,” Col. Oleksii Dmytrashkivskyi, a spokesman for Ukrainian military forces in the area, said in an interview.
The Russians failed to take into account the terrain — open fields laden with mines — or the strength of the Ukrainian forces, he said. Two of Russia’s most elite brigades — the 155th and 40th Naval Infantry Brigades — were decimated in Vuhledar, Colonel Dmytrashkivskyi said.
In one week alone, the Ukrainian General Staff, which is responsible for military strategy, estimated that Russia lost at least 130 armored vehicles, including 36 tanks. That estimate has been supported by accounts from Russian military bloggers, whose reporting on the war is influential in Russia, and by drone footage of the destruction reviewed by independent military analysts.
Mr. Wallace on Wednesday cited reports that “a whole Russian brigade was effectively annihilated” in Vuhledar, where he said that Moscow “lost over 1,000 people in two days.” The British defense intelligence agency reported last week that Russian units had “likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar,” abandoning at least 30 armored vehicles after one failed assault.
Mr. Wallace told LBC News, a British news outlet, that the losses in Vuhledar showed the result of “a president and a Russian general staff that defies reality or ignores reality and simply doesn’t care how many people they are killing of their own, let alone of the people they are trying to oppress.”
Many of the captured soldiers were newly mobilized under a call-up Mr. Putin announced last September of some 300,000 recruits, while others had been recruited by the Wagner mercenary group, according to Ukrainian and Russian accounts.
In recent weeks, a rivalry between Wagner forces and the regular Russian army has opened up, with the mercenary group claiming that its fighters are more capable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/world/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-offensive.html?
Was reading about the USA supplying shells to Ukraine, have supplied about 1.5 to 1.7 million from existing stock, can ramp up production to make about 250,000 a year but that’s pushing it.
Its used a significant proportion of what exists.
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Russia’s losses around Vuhledar renew questions about its ability to sustain a fresh offensive.By Marc Santora
Feb. 15, 2023KYIV, Ukraine — As Russia steps up its offensive in eastern Ukraine, weeks of failed attacks on a Ukrainian stronghold have left two Russian brigades in tatters, raised questions about Moscow’s military tactics and renewed doubts about its ability to maintain sustained, large-scale ground assaults.
The fighting has also come at a cost for Ukraine, which is expending vast amounts of ammunition to repel Russia’s growing numbers of ground troops, often supported by heavy armor, artillery and close air support. That has added urgency to Ukraine’s pleas for more ammunition, while Western allies this week expressed increasing concern about their ability to meet the demand.
The battle around the Ukrainian city of Vuhledar, which sits at the intersection of the eastern front in the Donetsk region and the southern front in the Zaporizhzhia region, is viewed as one of Moscow’s opening moves of a nascent spring offensive. Though it has been playing out for weeks, the scale of Russia’s losses is only beginning to come into focus.
Accounts from Ukrainian and Western officials, Ukrainian soldiers, captured Russian soldiers, Russian military bloggers, and video and satellite images all paint a picture of a faltering Russian campaign that continues to be plagued by dysfunction.
Moscow has rushed tens of thousands more troops, many of them inexperienced new recruits, to the front line in recent weeks as President Vladimir V. Putin’s forces seek to demonstrate progress before the anniversary of his full-scale invasion on Feb. 24.
Western officials estimate that the vast majority of Russia’s army is now fighting in Ukraine. Britain’s defense secretary, Ben Wallace, told the BBC on Wednesday that “97 percent of the Russian army” is in Ukraine. U.S. defense officials estimate that about 80 percent of Russia’s ground forces are dedicated to the war effort.
In attempting to capture Vuhledar, which lies near a rail line Russia uses to supply its forces, “the enemy suffered critical losses,” Col. Oleksii Dmytrashkivskyi, a spokesman for Ukrainian military forces in the area, said in an interview.
The Russians failed to take into account the terrain — open fields laden with mines — or the strength of the Ukrainian forces, he said. Two of Russia’s most elite brigades — the 155th and 40th Naval Infantry Brigades — were decimated in Vuhledar, Colonel Dmytrashkivskyi said.
In one week alone, the Ukrainian General Staff, which is responsible for military strategy, estimated that Russia lost at least 130 armored vehicles, including 36 tanks. That estimate has been supported by accounts from Russian military bloggers, whose reporting on the war is influential in Russia, and by drone footage of the destruction reviewed by independent military analysts.
Mr. Wallace on Wednesday cited reports that “a whole Russian brigade was effectively annihilated” in Vuhledar, where he said that Moscow “lost over 1,000 people in two days.” The British defense intelligence agency reported last week that Russian units had “likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar,” abandoning at least 30 armored vehicles after one failed assault.
Mr. Wallace told LBC News, a British news outlet, that the losses in Vuhledar showed the result of “a president and a Russian general staff that defies reality or ignores reality and simply doesn’t care how many people they are killing of their own, let alone of the people they are trying to oppress.”
Many of the captured soldiers were newly mobilized under a call-up Mr. Putin announced last September of some 300,000 recruits, while others had been recruited by the Wagner mercenary group, according to Ukrainian and Russian accounts.
In recent weeks, a rivalry between Wagner forces and the regular Russian army has opened up, with the mercenary group claiming that its fighters are more capable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/world/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-offensive.html?
Was reading about the USA supplying shells to Ukraine, have supplied about 1.5 to 1.7 million from existing stock, can ramp up production to make about 250,000 a year but that’s pushing it.
Its used a significant proportion of what exists.
It may well be a case of who runs out first.
Zarkov said:
Gave the Ukrainians the secret to water powered vehicles no fuel shortage for them
That’s nice of you.
Perhaps you can give it to me as well, so I don’t pollute the world with my fossil fuel-powered car.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Russia’s losses around Vuhledar renew questions about its ability to sustain a fresh offensive.By Marc Santora
Feb. 15, 2023KYIV, Ukraine — As Russia steps up its offensive in eastern Ukraine, weeks of failed attacks on a Ukrainian stronghold have left two Russian brigades in tatters, raised questions about Moscow’s military tactics and renewed doubts about its ability to maintain sustained, large-scale ground assaults.
The fighting has also come at a cost for Ukraine, which is expending vast amounts of ammunition to repel Russia’s growing numbers of ground troops, often supported by heavy armor, artillery and close air support. That has added urgency to Ukraine’s pleas for more ammunition, while Western allies this week expressed increasing concern about their ability to meet the demand.
The battle around the Ukrainian city of Vuhledar, which sits at the intersection of the eastern front in the Donetsk region and the southern front in the Zaporizhzhia region, is viewed as one of Moscow’s opening moves of a nascent spring offensive. Though it has been playing out for weeks, the scale of Russia’s losses is only beginning to come into focus.
Accounts from Ukrainian and Western officials, Ukrainian soldiers, captured Russian soldiers, Russian military bloggers, and video and satellite images all paint a picture of a faltering Russian campaign that continues to be plagued by dysfunction.
Moscow has rushed tens of thousands more troops, many of them inexperienced new recruits, to the front line in recent weeks as President Vladimir V. Putin’s forces seek to demonstrate progress before the anniversary of his full-scale invasion on Feb. 24.
Western officials estimate that the vast majority of Russia’s army is now fighting in Ukraine. Britain’s defense secretary, Ben Wallace, told the BBC on Wednesday that “97 percent of the Russian army” is in Ukraine. U.S. defense officials estimate that about 80 percent of Russia’s ground forces are dedicated to the war effort.
In attempting to capture Vuhledar, which lies near a rail line Russia uses to supply its forces, “the enemy suffered critical losses,” Col. Oleksii Dmytrashkivskyi, a spokesman for Ukrainian military forces in the area, said in an interview.
The Russians failed to take into account the terrain — open fields laden with mines — or the strength of the Ukrainian forces, he said. Two of Russia’s most elite brigades — the 155th and 40th Naval Infantry Brigades — were decimated in Vuhledar, Colonel Dmytrashkivskyi said.
In one week alone, the Ukrainian General Staff, which is responsible for military strategy, estimated that Russia lost at least 130 armored vehicles, including 36 tanks. That estimate has been supported by accounts from Russian military bloggers, whose reporting on the war is influential in Russia, and by drone footage of the destruction reviewed by independent military analysts.
Mr. Wallace on Wednesday cited reports that “a whole Russian brigade was effectively annihilated” in Vuhledar, where he said that Moscow “lost over 1,000 people in two days.” The British defense intelligence agency reported last week that Russian units had “likely suffered particularly heavy casualties around Vuhledar,” abandoning at least 30 armored vehicles after one failed assault.
Mr. Wallace told LBC News, a British news outlet, that the losses in Vuhledar showed the result of “a president and a Russian general staff that defies reality or ignores reality and simply doesn’t care how many people they are killing of their own, let alone of the people they are trying to oppress.”
Many of the captured soldiers were newly mobilized under a call-up Mr. Putin announced last September of some 300,000 recruits, while others had been recruited by the Wagner mercenary group, according to Ukrainian and Russian accounts.
In recent weeks, a rivalry between Wagner forces and the regular Russian army has opened up, with the mercenary group claiming that its fighters are more capable.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/world/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-offensive.html?
Was reading about the USA supplying shells to Ukraine, have supplied about 1.5 to 1.7 million from existing stock, can ramp up production to make about 250,000 a year but that’s pushing it.
Its used a significant proportion of what exists.It may well be a case of who runs out first.
Indeed, modern large scale war may come down to this and who decides can’t afford to keep going, spent a few trillion already and got nothing for it.
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:Was reading about the USA supplying shells to Ukraine, have supplied about 1.5 to 1.7 million from existing stock, can ramp up production to make about 250,000 a year but that’s pushing it.
Its used a significant proportion of what exists.It may well be a case of who runs out first.
Indeed, modern large scale war may come down to this and who decides can’t afford to keep going, spent a few trillion already and got nothing for it.
so it’s been good news for deproliferation
Zarkov said:
Gave the Ukrainians the secret to water powered vehicles no fuel shortage for them
‘Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’
Body of finance director of Western Military District found on pavement on Wednesday morning’
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marina-yankina-russia-death-putin-b2283686.html
captain_spalding said:
‘Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’
Body of finance director of Western Military District found on pavement on Wednesday morning’https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marina-yankina-russia-death-putin-b2283686.html
Soon the only one left will be the man himself.
captain_spalding said:
‘Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’
Body of finance director of Western Military District found on pavement on Wednesday morning’https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marina-yankina-russia-death-putin-b2283686.html
This defenestration thing is becoming quite common in Russia.
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
‘Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’
Body of finance director of Western Military District found on pavement on Wednesday morning’https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marina-yankina-russia-death-putin-b2283686.html
This defenestration thing is becoming quite common in Russia.
Equal opportunity though
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
‘Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’
Body of finance director of Western Military District found on pavement on Wednesday morning’https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marina-yankina-russia-death-putin-b2283686.html
This defenestration thing is becoming quite common in Russia.
America needs gun control.
Russia needs window control.
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
‘Senior Russian military official ‘plunges 16 storeys to her death falling from window’
Body of finance director of Western Military District found on pavement on Wednesday morning’https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marina-yankina-russia-death-putin-b2283686.html
This defenestration thing is becoming quite common in Russia.
Maybe they are trying to be the first to evolve wings.
Russian warlord’s feud with Putin’s generals explodes into the open with gruesome PR campaign.
CNN
—
It has to count as one of the strangest PR campaigns in memory: using a pile of corpses to make your case to the powers that be.
That’s what Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Russian mercenary group Wagner, appears to have done this week in an unusual public appeal for ammunition for his fighters in Ukraine. And in the process, he has cast a harsh light on his open feud with Russia’s military leadership on the eve of the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
On Wednesday, Prigozhin posted a picture on Telegram showing the bodies of several dozen slain Wagner fighters, piled unceremoniously in a courtyard. Alongside that shocking photo, he posted the image of a formal request from Wagner for more ammunition, pointing the finger of blame squarely at the Russian Ministry of Defense for squandering one of those lives.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/23/europe/russia-ukraine-yevgeny-prigozhin-wagner-campaign-intl-cmd/index.html
dv said:
Russian warlord’s feud with Putin’s generals explodes into the open with gruesome PR campaign.
CNN —
It has to count as one of the strangest PR campaigns in memory: using a pile of corpses to make your case to the powers that be.That’s what Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Russian mercenary group Wagner, appears to have done this week in an unusual public appeal for ammunition for his fighters in Ukraine. And in the process, he has cast a harsh light on his open feud with Russia’s military leadership on the eve of the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
On Wednesday, Prigozhin posted a picture on Telegram showing the bodies of several dozen slain Wagner fighters, piled unceremoniously in a courtyard. Alongside that shocking photo, he posted the image of a formal request from Wagner for more ammunition, pointing the finger of blame squarely at the Russian Ministry of Defense for squandering one of those lives.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/23/europe/russia-ukraine-yevgeny-prigozhin-wagner-campaign-intl-cmd/index.html
Is he about to fall out a window or have hhis car blown up?
roughbarked said:
dv said:Russian warlord’s feud with Putin’s generals explodes into the open with gruesome PR campaign.
CNN —
It has to count as one of the strangest PR campaigns in memory: using a pile of corpses to make your case to the powers that be.That’s what Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Russian mercenary group Wagner, appears to have done this week in an unusual public appeal for ammunition for his fighters in Ukraine. And in the process, he has cast a harsh light on his open feud with Russia’s military leadership on the eve of the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
On Wednesday, Prigozhin posted a picture on Telegram showing the bodies of several dozen slain Wagner fighters, piled unceremoniously in a courtyard. Alongside that shocking photo, he posted the image of a formal request from Wagner for more ammunition, pointing the finger of blame squarely at the Russian Ministry of Defense for squandering one of those lives.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/23/europe/russia-ukraine-yevgeny-prigozhin-wagner-campaign-intl-cmd/index.html
Is he about to fall out a window or have hhis car blown up?
Or an exploding toilet due to back up of gases from cabbage based diet
dv said:
Russian warlord’s feud with Putin’s generals explodes into the open with gruesome PR campaign.
CNN —
It has to count as one of the strangest PR campaigns in memory: using a pile of corpses to make your case to the powers that be.That’s what Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Russian mercenary group Wagner, appears to have done this week in an unusual public appeal for ammunition for his fighters in Ukraine. And in the process, he has cast a harsh light on his open feud with Russia’s military leadership on the eve of the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
On Wednesday, Prigozhin posted a picture on Telegram showing the bodies of several dozen slain Wagner fighters, piled unceremoniously in a courtyard. Alongside that shocking photo, he posted the image of a formal request from Wagner for more ammunition, pointing the finger of blame squarely at the Russian Ministry of Defense for squandering one of those lives.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/23/europe/russia-ukraine-yevgeny-prigozhin-wagner-campaign-intl-cmd/index.html
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
roughbarked said:
dv said:Russian warlord’s feud with Putin’s generals explodes into the open with gruesome PR campaign.
CNN —
It has to count as one of the strangest PR campaigns in memory: using a pile of corpses to make your case to the powers that be.That’s what Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the Russian mercenary group Wagner, appears to have done this week in an unusual public appeal for ammunition for his fighters in Ukraine. And in the process, he has cast a harsh light on his open feud with Russia’s military leadership on the eve of the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
On Wednesday, Prigozhin posted a picture on Telegram showing the bodies of several dozen slain Wagner fighters, piled unceremoniously in a courtyard. Alongside that shocking photo, he posted the image of a formal request from Wagner for more ammunition, pointing the finger of blame squarely at the Russian Ministry of Defense for squandering one of those lives.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/23/europe/russia-ukraine-yevgeny-prigozhin-wagner-campaign-intl-cmd/index.html
Is he about to fall out a window or have hhis car blown up?
They can all fall out of windows, all of the Russian elite.
Plenty of windows left.
Go for it I say.
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
If we blindly believe everything the western media tells us we’ll think that Putin is rotten with cancer and on his death bed.
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
The Yanks tried to control the media during the Gulf Wars
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
Their sources in this case are what’s being posted by Prigozhin on social media etc. They’re just reporting and analysing his public confrontation with the defence authorities.
Peak Warming Man said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
If we blindly believe everything the western media tells us we’ll think that Putin is rotten with cancer and on his death bed.
Nah.
Cymek said:
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
The Yanks tried to control the media during the Gulf Wars
You might have noticed that no Western country is actually at war with Russia at the moment. AFAIA there have been no attempts by Western governments to impose controls on Western reporting of this conflict.
Peak Warming Man said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
If we blindly believe everything the western media tells us we’ll think that Putin is rotten with cancer and on his death bed.
We can only live in hope that he’s dying a horrible death.
Bubblecar said:
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
Their sources in this case are what’s being posted by Prigozhin on social media etc. They’re just reporting and analysing his public confrontation with the defence authorities.
Yes, in some cases, the sources are unexpected, quite revealing, and (occasionally) unimpeachable, which makes analysis effective.
My earlier remarks referred to the general trend of ‘journalism’.
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
captain_spalding said:That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
Their sources in this case are what’s being posted by Prigozhin on social media etc. They’re just reporting and analysing his public confrontation with the defence authorities.
Yes, in some cases, the sources are unexpected, quite revealing, and (occasionally) unimpeachable, which makes analysis effective.
My earlier remarks referred to the general trend of ‘journalism’.
Sure, journalism isn’t always reliable. But PWM was insinuating that the Western media are deliberately spreading false information about this war, in the style of the Russian media.
roughbarked said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Bubblecar said:Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
If we blindly believe everything the western media tells us we’ll think that Putin is rotten with cancer and on his death bed.
We can only live in hope that he’s dying a horrible death.
Putin in wheelchair falls out of a window.
Remember when the arab spring was on and they were revolting in Libya and the BBC reported that Colonel Gadafi had fled to South America.
I remember listening to that report and thinking to myself ‘that’s bullshit’ and so it was.
Peak Warming Man said:
Remember when the arab spring was on and they were revolting in Libya and the BBC reported that Colonel Gadafi had fled to South America.
I remember listening to that report and thinking to myself ‘that’s bullshit’ and so it was.
Just inaccurate reporting, not deliberate propaganda. What purpose would it serve to deliberately lie to their audience about something like that?
Peak Warming Man said:
Remember when the arab spring was on and they were revolting in Libya and the BBC reported that Colonel Gadafi had fled to South America.
I remember listening to that report and thinking to myself ‘that’s bullshit’ and so it was.
Maybe they got it from the daily mail?
Peak Warming Man said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
If we blindly believe everything the western media tells us we’ll think that Putin is rotten with cancer and on his death bed.
Which reputable outlets have reported that without caveats?
Bubblecar said:
Cymek said:
captain_spalding said:That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
The Yanks tried to control the media during the Gulf Wars
You might have noticed that no Western country is actually at war with Russia at the moment. AFAIA there have been no attempts by Western governments to impose controls on Western reporting of this conflict.
True, I was meaning along the lines that governments directly involved in wars tend to lie or bend the truth.
Bubblecar said:
Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
yes we know, that’s what the Western media have been telling us
captain_spalding said:
Bubblecar said:
captain_spalding said:
That’s true, but i know from my own past dealings with ‘the press’ that (a) they only know what their sources tell them, and (b) they see no reason why facts should always get in the way of a good story.
So, depending on what their sources say, and what portions of that information they choose to highlight, minimise, or disregard altogether, their reports may or may not be a good picture of events and situations.
Their sources in this case are what’s being posted by Prigozhin on social media etc. They’re just reporting and analysing his public confrontation with the defence authorities.
Yes, in some cases, the sources are unexpected, quite revealing, and (occasionally) unimpeachable, which makes analysis effective.
My earlier remarks referred to the general trend of ‘journalism’.
on the other hand sure we do accept the argument that in fact the opposite of the earlier suggestion is true, Western media aren’t government tool, rather Western government are media puppet and oh shit there’s some sirens in the distance and they seem to be getting closer excuse us a minute or a few years we may be answering some questions
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-24/ukrainian-authors-speak-out-on-adelaide-writers-week/102012440
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
It is from the western media so it might not be true or it might be half true, you know what they say about war and truth.
Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
More likely the Illuminati
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:Um, the Western media is not a government tool like the Russian media. You used to understand these things.
I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Well we are the good guys as our war crimes don’t count, if you mention that you are a traitor
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Well we are the good guys as our war crimes don’t count, if you mention that you are a traitor
Ain’t never been to a war.
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Who said I think all Western media is “benign”? I merely pointed out that they aren’t a government misinformation tool, as they are in places like Russia and China.
PWM seemed to think the Western media are less reliable than those of the dictatorships.
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Who said I think all Western media is “benign”? I merely pointed out that they aren’t a government misinformation tool, as they are in places like Russia and China.
PWM seemed to think the Western media are less reliable than those of the dictatorships.
Do you really think there is no mutual gratification between people like Murdoch and governments like the LNP. Now that IS interesting.
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:I see, so you think the Western media is actually controlled by their governments? Murdoch is a Labor shill, etc. Interesting.
Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Who said I think all Western media is “benign”? I merely pointed out that they aren’t a government misinformation tool, as they are in places like Russia and China.
PWM seemed to think the Western media are less reliable than those of the dictatorships.
…i.e., less reliable for accuracy of reporting. While PWM’s favoured right-wing media aren’t noted for their accurate reporting, there are obviously many more neutral Western media outlets, such as CNN whose report dv was quoting.
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Who said I think all Western media is “benign”? I merely pointed out that they aren’t a government misinformation tool, as they are in places like Russia and China.
PWM seemed to think the Western media are less reliable than those of the dictatorships.
Do you really think there is no mutual gratification between people like Murdoch and governments like the LNP. Now that IS interesting.
Stop being silly. You’re pretending I hold ludicrous views that you know I don’t hold.
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:Who said I think all Western media is “benign”? I merely pointed out that they aren’t a government misinformation tool, as they are in places like Russia and China.
PWM seemed to think the Western media are less reliable than those of the dictatorships.
Do you really think there is no mutual gratification between people like Murdoch and governments like the LNP. Now that IS interesting.
Stop being silly. You’re pretending I hold ludicrous views that you know I don’t hold.
People with power like to use it and those at the receiving end are very grateful.
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:Just amused that you think the Western media is so benign. The most influential person in the western world is arguably Ruport Murdoch, where instead of the government determining what he says, it is more him determining what the government says. So what is worse?
Well we are the good guys as our war crimes don’t count, if you mention that you are a traitor
Ain’t never been to a war.
Not us in particular but various wars Western nations have been involved in, what are the true civilians deaths and regardless they don’t seem to constitute crimes against humanity, when they are.
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:Well we are the good guys as our war crimes don’t count, if you mention that you are a traitor
Ain’t never been to a war.
Not us in particular but various wars Western nations have been involved in, what are the true civilians deaths and regardless they don’t seem to constitute crimes against humanity, when they are.
war is a form of legalised murder.
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:
PermeateFree said:Do you really think there is no mutual gratification between people like Murdoch and governments like the LNP. Now that IS interesting.
Stop being silly. You’re pretending I hold ludicrous views that you know I don’t hold.
People with power like to use it and those at the receiving end are very grateful.
Western media is a bit smarter/surreptitious in they convince the masses to believe in people/decisions/laws that go against their own interests even praise those that implement them.
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:Ain’t never been to a war.
Not us in particular but various wars Western nations have been involved in, what are the true civilians deaths and regardless they don’t seem to constitute crimes against humanity, when they are.
war is a form of legalised murder.
Indeed
Someone can decide to go to war, kill millions of people and that’s OK, never get prosecuted/punished often considered a hero
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Bubblecar said:Stop being silly. You’re pretending I hold ludicrous views that you know I don’t hold.
People with power like to use it and those at the receiving end are very grateful.
Western media is a bit smarter/surreptitious in they convince the masses to believe in people/decisions/laws that go against their own interests even praise those that implement them.
Another conspiracy?
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:People with power like to use it and those at the receiving end are very grateful.
Western media is a bit smarter/surreptitious in they convince the masses to believe in people/decisions/laws that go against their own interests even praise those that implement them.
Another conspiracy?
Trump would be a prime example, he’s a horrible person with policies and ideas that go against the interests of the people who support him.
Media organisations owned by people who think like him promote him
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:Western media is a bit smarter/surreptitious in they convince the masses to believe in people/decisions/laws that go against their own interests even praise those that implement them.
Another conspiracy?
Trump would be a prime example, he’s a horrible person with policies and ideas that go against the interests of the people who support him.
Media organisations owned by people who think like him promote him
Are we to ban media organisations from advocating certain positions?
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Another conspiracy?
Trump would be a prime example, he’s a horrible person with policies and ideas that go against the interests of the people who support him.
Media organisations owned by people who think like him promote him
Are we to ban media organisations from advocating certain positions?
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:People with power like to use it and those at the receiving end are very grateful.
Western media is a bit smarter/surreptitious in they convince the masses to believe in people/decisions/laws that go against their own interests even praise those that implement them.
Another conspiracy?
Ooh, ooh, where, can i sign up for it, can i?
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:Trump would be a prime example, he’s a horrible person with policies and ideas that go against the interests of the people who support him.
Media organisations owned by people who think like him promote him
Are we to ban media organisations from advocating certain positions?
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
Not all media is the same. To tar them all with the same brush is silly.
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:Western media is a bit smarter/surreptitious in they convince the masses to believe in people/decisions/laws that go against their own interests even praise those that implement them.
Another conspiracy?
Ooh, ooh, where, can i sign up for it, can i?
Is society set up fairly or could many things be done better.
Very little can be done without money and if you don’t have it too bad, I’m not even talking about buying yourself wants but basic needs not met.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Are we to ban media organisations from advocating certain positions?
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
Not all media is the same. To tar them all with the same brush is silly.
That’s true, the ABC is always fair and unbiased.
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Trump would be a prime example, he’s a horrible person with policies and ideas that go against the interests of the people who support him.
Media organisations owned by people who think like him promote him
Are we to ban media organisations from advocating certain positions?
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
LOL but they insist
PermeateFree said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
Not all media is the same. To tar them all with the same brush is silly.
That’s true, the ABC is always fair and unbiased.
^
we agree that it is unreasonable to insist on critically evaluating information from all media, obviously some of them can be completely trusted, and obviously those are the Western Democratic medias
SCIENCE said:
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Are we to ban media organisations from advocating certain positions?
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
LOL but they insist
I’m not a conspiracy nut but do think society works in way to benefit a few, setup that way over decades using various means.
It’s considered that’s how its done in most places to borrow money to own a house so you can go to work so you can afford a house.
Borrowing money to basically live.
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:Cymek said:
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
LOL but they insist
I’m not a conspiracy nut but do think society works in way to benefit a few, setup that way over decades using various means.
It’s considered that’s how its done in most places to borrow money to own a house so you can go to work so you can afford a house.
Borrowing money to basically live.
You go to work to get the money to buy the bread to give you the strength to go to work.
SCIENCE said:
PermeateFree said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Not all media is the same. To tar them all with the same brush is silly.
That’s true, the ABC is always fair and unbiased.
^
we agree that it is unreasonable to insist on critically evaluating information from all media, obviously some of them can be completely trusted, and obviously those are the Western Democratic medias
People own media empires for what purpose, not for altruistic, spreading the truth reasons that’s for sure.
Sure much of what is told has truth to it, but a lot is left unsaid as well.
Outside the Russian embassy in London today
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:Cymek said:
No but believing our media is honest and above board isn’t true.
LOL but they insist
I’m not a conspiracy nut but do think society works in way to benefit a few, setup that way over decades using various means.
It’s considered that’s how its done in most places to borrow money to own a house so you can go to work so you can afford a house.
Borrowing money to basically live.
Next you’ll be saying you were forced to marry and have kids to live in a house you never wanted.
Ian said:
Outside the Russian embassy in London today
:)
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:LOL but they insist
I’m not a conspiracy nut but do think society works in way to benefit a few, setup that way over decades using various means.
It’s considered that’s how its done in most places to borrow money to own a house so you can go to work so you can afford a house.
Borrowing money to basically live.
Next you’ll be saying you were forced to marry and have kids to live in a house you never wanted.
Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:I’m not a conspiracy nut but do think society works in way to benefit a few, setup that way over decades using various means.
It’s considered that’s how its done in most places to borrow money to own a house so you can go to work so you can afford a house.
Borrowing money to basically live.
Next you’ll be saying you were forced to marry and have kids to live in a house you never wanted.
Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:LOL but they insist
I’m not a conspiracy nut but do think society works in way to benefit a few, setup that way over decades using various means.
It’s considered that’s how its done in most places to borrow money to own a house so you can go to work so you can afford a house.
Borrowing money to basically live.
Next you’ll be saying you were forced to marry and have kids to live in a house you never wanted.
I think Cymek has a point. Trying to get things done invariably involves paying a mega-company or the government a share via way of registration, subscriptions, rates, licenses, bank fees, etc., etc., and when just starting up, can amount to your total profit, thus making any new venture even more difficult. But living your life is impossible without numerous legal requirements along with their annual fees that say you are allowed to do whatever, or to access something. Life is fast becoming a little plastic card, because without it, you simply don’t exist and play little to no part in today’s society.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Next you’ll be saying you were forced to marry and have kids to live in a house you never wanted.
Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Fair point, I’m not complaining about how it is for just me but just the world in general, Australia would be one of the best places to live.
It just seems extremely hard to do the correct thing for life and the planet with many things set up to prevent it
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Next you’ll be saying you were forced to marry and have kids to live in a house you never wanted.
Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Great if you own your own house and can make it your home, but these days for many that is impossible, and you rely on the goodwill of others. If you are stuck in a “casual” job with an unreliable income, you cannot get loans unless at an exorbitant rate and you are unable to make long-term plans for your future. Life these days can really suck too and the number of people caught in these situations are growing, not reducing.
PermeateFree said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Great if you own your own house and can make it your home, but these days for many that is impossible, and you rely on the goodwill of others. If you are stuck in a “casual” job with an unreliable income, you cannot get loans unless at an exorbitant rate and you are unable to make long-term plans for your future. Life these days can really suck too and the number of people caught in these situations are growing, not reducing.
I think so and we have it good in Australia.
PermeateFree said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Great if you own your own house and can make it your home, but these days for many that is impossible, and you rely on the goodwill of others. If you are stuck in a “casual” job with an unreliable income, you cannot get loans unless at an exorbitant rate and you are unable to make long-term plans for your future. Life these days can really suck too and the number of people caught in these situations are growing, not reducing.
Unfortunately housing is one of the few things that technological progress doesn’t make cheaper over time as our expectations grow and real incomes rise and many fall by the wayside as those who are better off price the poor and vulnerable out of the market. Governments will need to develop policies about affordable and social housing to ensure that that which is already apparent not only stops getting worse but rather improves for the better.
NZ PM Ardern outlined a bold policy in this area and failed miserably so hopefully our pollies can perform better over the next 5-10 years.
Witty Rejoinder said:
PermeateFree said:
Witty Rejoinder said:It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Great if you own your own house and can make it your home, but these days for many that is impossible, and you rely on the goodwill of others. If you are stuck in a “casual” job with an unreliable income, you cannot get loans unless at an exorbitant rate and you are unable to make long-term plans for your future. Life these days can really suck too and the number of people caught in these situations are growing, not reducing.
Unfortunately housing is one of the few things that technological progress doesn’t make cheaper over time as our expectations grow and real incomes rise and many fall by the wayside as those who are better off price the poor and vulnerable out of the market. Governments will need to develop policies about affordable and social housing to ensure that that which is already apparent not only stops getting worse but rather improves for the better.
NZ PM Ardern outlined a bold policy in this area and failed miserably so hopefully our pollies can perform better over the next 5-10 years.
One problem with providing adequate housing is the government bringing 200,000 to 250,000 people into Australia each year. Funny when they brag about new migrants they never mention where they are to live. There are several studies that say the backlog can never be fixed and the situation will continue to get worse. It is governments, both federal and state that are purposely keeping important information from the people. But there again, there would be few pollies who don’t own their homes.
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:Not us in particular but various wars Western nations have been involved in, what are the true civilians deaths and regardless they don’t seem to constitute crimes against humanity, when they are.
war is a form of legalised murder.
Indeed
Someone can decide to go to war, kill millions of people and that’s OK, never get prosecuted/punished often considered a hero
well, t hat’s not true many people have been prosecuted for war crimes…
Arts said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:war is a form of legalised murder.
Indeed
Someone can decide to go to war, kill millions of people and that’s OK, never get prosecuted/punished often considered a hero
well, t hat’s not true many people have been prosecuted for war crimes…
They’re crimes only if you lose.
captain_spalding said:
Arts said:
Cymek said:Indeed
Someone can decide to go to war, kill millions of people and that’s OK, never get prosecuted/punished often considered a hero
well, t hat’s not true many people have been prosecuted for war crimes…
They’re crimes only if you lose.
“nods”
Cymek said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
Do you not think many things are set up with loopholes to get people out of taking responsibility for things they have done.
All the coverups over health concerns, pollution, testing on people without consent, exploitation of anything and everything.
Outright lies from government and industry over various concerns people have.
Like we mentioned a leader can decided to go to war, invade, destroy infrastructure, kill large numbers of civilians and depending on who it is, that’s OK
It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Fair point, I’m not complaining about how it is for just me but just the world in general, Australia would be one of the best places to live.
It just seems extremely hard to do the correct thing for life and the planet with many things set up to prevent it
all good comrade, just remember that when the agents from elsewhere are telling you how good you have it, and promising that things naturally just get better so STFU stop whinging just let the people who know what they’re doing carry on running the place
wait what
does it
even
mean
Witty Rejoinder said:
PermeateFree said:
Witty Rejoinder said:It’s the nature of the world: both good and bad. It is however better now than it ever has been and is slowly getting better because of the actions of those who make it their responsibility for the sake of their children and grandchildren.
I do think that healthy straight white males living in Australia complaining about the injustices of life all the time probably need to get some perspective.
Great if you own your own house and can make it your home, but these days for many that is impossible, and you rely on the goodwill of others. If you are stuck in a “casual” job with an unreliable income, you cannot get loans unless at an exorbitant rate and you are unable to make long-term plans for your future. Life these days can really suck too and the number of people caught in these situations are growing, not reducing.
Unfortunately housing is one of the few things that technological progress doesn’t make cheaper over time as our expectations grow and real incomes rise and many fall by the wayside as those who are better off price the poor and vulnerable out of the market. Governments will need to develop policies about affordable and social housing to ensure that that which is already apparent not only stops getting worse but rather improves for the better.
NZ PM Ardern outlined a bold policy in this area and failed miserably so hopefully our pollies can perform better over the next 5-10 years.
Yeah, a decent house has to be built by many different tradies, they require income for their work. The land that it sits on also requires money to buy. Claiming that housing is a human right is fine, but someone has to pay for it. Life is hard, especially these days with 7 Billion people on this little globe.
Kingy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
PermeateFree said:Great if you own your own house and can make it your home, but these days for many that is impossible, and you rely on the goodwill of others. If you are stuck in a “casual” job with an unreliable income, you cannot get loans unless at an exorbitant rate and you are unable to make long-term plans for your future. Life these days can really suck too and the number of people caught in these situations are growing, not reducing.
Unfortunately housing is one of the few things that technological progress doesn’t make cheaper over time as our expectations grow and real incomes rise and many fall by the wayside as those who are better off price the poor and vulnerable out of the market. Governments will need to develop policies about affordable and social housing to ensure that that which is already apparent not only stops getting worse but rather improves for the better.
NZ PM Ardern outlined a bold policy in this area and failed miserably so hopefully our pollies can perform better over the next 5-10 years.
Yeah, a decent house has to be built by many different tradies, they require income for their work. The land that it sits on also requires money to buy. Claiming that housing is a human right is fine, but someone has to pay for it. Life is hard, especially these days with 7 Billion people on this little globe.
8 billion now.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Unfortunately housing is one of the few things that technological progress doesn’t make cheaper over time as our expectations grow and real incomes rise and many fall by the wayside as those who are better off price the poor and vulnerable out of the market. Governments will need to develop policies about affordable and social housing to ensure that that which is already apparent not only stops getting worse but rather improves for the better.
It should.
In eastern Europe they build masses and masses of commie blocks, built in modular pieces in factories. Assembled on site by crane with a relatively small crew on site. We in the west still talk about this like it is some new revolutionary system. There has to be a way to mass produce a set of standard modular pieces which can be assembled together to make a decent house. We are still doing things the old way with many trades on site one after the other producing a permanent in-situ building. Really we can better than this, just the earthworks and foundations need to be bespoke for the site. These sorts of houses don’t need to ugly and nasty.
PermeateFree said:
Kingy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Unfortunately housing is one of the few things that technological progress doesn’t make cheaper over time as our expectations grow and real incomes rise and many fall by the wayside as those who are better off price the poor and vulnerable out of the market. Governments will need to develop policies about affordable and social housing to ensure that that which is already apparent not only stops getting worse but rather improves for the better.
NZ PM Ardern outlined a bold policy in this area and failed miserably so hopefully our pollies can perform better over the next 5-10 years.
Yeah, a decent house has to be built by many different tradies, they require income for their work. The land that it sits on also requires money to buy. Claiming that housing is a human right is fine, but someone has to pay for it. Life is hard, especially these days with 7 Billion people on this little globe.
8 billion now.
For Fucks Sake people, Stop Fucking Fucking!
Kingy said:
PermeateFree said:
Kingy said:
Yeah, a decent house has to be built by many different tradies, they require income for their work. The land that it sits on also requires money to buy. Claiming that housing is a human right is fine, but someone has to pay for it. Life is hard, especially these days with 7 Billion people on this little globe.
8 billion now.
For Fucks Sake people, Stop Fucking Fucking!
exactly, surely all this warmongering will solve this overpopulation problem, and quickly too
a good thing
Arts said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:war is a form of legalised murder.
Indeed
Someone can decide to go to war, kill millions of people and that’s OK, never get prosecuted/punished often considered a hero
well, t hat’s not true many people have been prosecuted for war crimes…
about five minutes before they die.
Kingy said:
PermeateFree said:
Kingy said:Yeah, a decent house has to be built by many different tradies, they require income for their work. The land that it sits on also requires money to buy. Claiming that housing is a human right is fine, but someone has to pay for it. Life is hard, especially these days with 7 Billion people on this little globe.
8 billion now.
For Fucks Sake people, Stop Fucking Fucking!
or use protection.
Reality check time
Russia is not running out of missiles it is making more and more
Its making more and more tanks
Its making more and more weapons
Its launched NEW submarines recently – interesting since the russians are portrayed as stupid yet Australia can’t build ONE.
Once the ground hardened the tanks started rolling, Russia is ADVANCING, it has been taking more and more ground. There have been numerous massive missile attacks.
What’s the future as production and chinese artillery and ammo floods in?
Imagine 1000 artillery pieces firing 1000 shells a minute Blasting a small area, the tanks slowly roll forward finishing off what survived.
There’s no deals with the Russians now, the yank and European government have proven that agreements and treaties can’t be trusted.
Australia actually can make submarines. They simply choose to pretend to buy them.
roughbarked said:
Australia actually can make submarines. They simply choose to pretend to buy them.
Our military and gov is a paper tiger – it’s only good for shooting up the third world in very limited operations. Australia hasn’t a war since Malaysia in the 1950s
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
Australia actually can make submarines. They simply choose to pretend to buy them.
You’ve been living in a dream world roughbark.Our military and gov is a paper tiger – it’s only good for shooting up the third world in very limited operations. Australia hasn’t a war since Malaysia in the 1950s
Which has nothing to do with our actual capability.
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
Australia actually can make submarines. They simply choose to pretend to buy them.
You’ve been living in a dream world roughbark.Our military and gov is a paper tiger – it’s only good for shooting up the third world in very limited operations. Australia hasn’t a war since Malaysia in the 1950s
Which has nothing to do with our actual capability.
Do we have even something equal to the S300,S400,S500,PANTSIR,BUK systems. Do we have thousands of them?
We push over old ladies and pepper spray their eyes for good measure. We are very good at bullying much weaker opponents especially our own citizens. I just packed up all that mental garbage I’d been sold and binned it a few years ago.
Laugh Out Loud We Guess
Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says China’s interest in the war launched by Russia is “not bad”, while revealing plans to meet President Xi Jinping after Beijing called for urgent peace talks to end the conflict.
that “no limits partnership” to the CHINA whore means something similar to “open marriage” especially when profits from arms trades are to be made
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-25/why-xi-is-offering-to-be-peacemaker-in-ukraine/102018166
gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
SCIENCE said:
gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
party_pants said:
SCIENCE said:gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
I can’t see it escalating outside Ukraine’s borders myself. The one foolhardy thing Putin could do is use tactical nukes IMO.
party_pants said:
SCIENCE said:gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
It certainly is time to keep the thinking caps on.
Witty Rejoinder said:
party_pants said:
SCIENCE said:gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
I can’t see it escalating outside Ukraine’s borders myself. The one foolhardy thing Putin could do is use tactical nukes IMO.
He can’t. If he was going to do that he would already have done it by now. He will definitely try and drag Belarus into it.
party_pants said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
party_pants said:It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
I can’t see it escalating outside Ukraine’s borders myself. The one foolhardy thing Putin could do is use tactical nukes IMO.
He can’t. If he was going to do that he would already have done it by now. He will definitely try and drag Belarus into it.
That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I can’t see it escalating outside Ukraine’s borders myself. The one foolhardy thing Putin could do is use tactical nukes IMO.
He can’t. If he was going to do that he would already have done it by now. He will definitely try and drag Belarus into it.
That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
withdrawing from the treaty is just about the worst he can do. He is running out of options. The only options the Russians have are a humiliating withdrawal, or to keep bashing their heads against the wall and hope the wall cracks before their skull does.
party_pants said:
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:He can’t. If he was going to do that he would already have done it by now. He will definitely try and drag Belarus into it.
That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
withdrawing from the treaty is just about the worst he can do. He is running out of options. The only options the Russians have are a humiliating withdrawal, or to keep bashing their heads against the wall and hope the wall cracks before their skull does.
I’ve read some interesting stuff about what China’s expanding nuclear force means for the bilateral treaties on nukes between Russia and the US. MAD works okay for two belligerents but becomes unworkable when you need to have enough warheads to ensure no one wins in a nuclear conflict. The gist was that maybe US stockpiles of nukes will need to expand with Russia and eventually China having twice as many warheads as the current treaties currently allow.
Witty Rejoinder said:
party_pants said:
roughbarked said:That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
withdrawing from the treaty is just about the worst he can do. He is running out of options. The only options the Russians have are a humiliating withdrawal, or to keep bashing their heads against the wall and hope the wall cracks before their skull does.
I’ve read some interesting stuff about what China’s expanding nuclear force means for the bilateral treaties on nukes between Russia and the US. MAD works okay for two belligerents but becomes unworkable when you need to have enough warheads to ensure no one wins in a nuclear conflict. The gist was that maybe US stockpiles of nukes will need to expand with Russia and eventually China having twice as many warheads as the current treaties currently allow.
If that happens we might see an end to the non-proliferation treaty. We might have to start a nuke project ourselves.
wookiemeister said:
Reality check timeRussia is not running out of missiles it is making more and more
Its making more and more tanks
Its making more and more weapons
Its launched NEW submarines recently – interesting since the russians are portrayed as stupid yet Australia can’t build ONE.
Once the ground hardened the tanks started rolling, Russia is ADVANCING, it has been taking more and more ground. There have been numerous massive missile attacks.
What’s the future as production and chinese artillery and ammo floods in?
Imagine 1000 artillery pieces firing 1000 shells a minute Blasting a small area, the tanks slowly roll forward finishing off what survived.
There’s no deals with the Russians now, the yank and European government have proven that agreements and treaties can’t be trusted.
party_pants said:
SCIENCE said:gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
I suppose Australia can send 50,000 troops and equipment, they might last a few weeks – none would come back.
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I can’t see it escalating outside Ukraine’s borders myself. The one foolhardy thing Putin could do is use tactical nukes IMO.
He can’t. If he was going to do that he would already have done it by now. He will definitely try and drag Belarus into it.
That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
They all think they are going to make “treaties “ with Russia – after making them in bad faith and walking away from them.
wookiemeister said:
party_pants said:
SCIENCE said:gee we wonder
“The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld,” reads China’s 12-point peace plan, seemingly in reference to Russia’s land grab, before turning the blame on Ukraine.
It depends where you draw the borders, and if you recognise the bullshit annexations made by Russia.
When the war gets going again, it is going to get nastier and more brutal. The west will be drawn in more and more as time goes on. By the middle of the year we will have a much better idea of which way it is going. Russia will take over Belarus and attempt the same in Moldava in the coming months too, so watch out for that.
It is time for Germany or more likely Poland to seize the Kalinigrad region.
The Germans and polish would get their arses handed to them. Kalingrad is full of weapons poland would stop existing again. If Germany and poland wanted to that they’d need to do a surprise attack – hard when the russians are expecting this.I suppose Australia can send 50,000 troops and equipment, they might last a few weeks – none would come back.
Biden wasn’t so pessimistic.
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:He can’t. If he was going to do that he would already have done it by now. He will definitely try and drag Belarus into it.
That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
Trump walked away from nuclear treaties with Russia a few years ago.They all think they are going to make “treaties “ with Russia – after making them in bad faith and walking away from them.
To be fair, Russia has never played fair.
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:That’s why he’s denounced the treaty. He needs to actually make nukes if he’s going to have a threat. He’s probably not game to set off any of the older firecrackers.
Trump walked away from nuclear treaties with Russia a few years ago.They all think they are going to make “treaties “ with Russia – after making them in bad faith and walking away from them.
To be fair, Russia has never played fair.
As I said
There’s no more deals just shells and missiles.
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:Trump walked away from nuclear treaties with Russia a few years ago.
They all think they are going to make “treaties “ with Russia – after making them in bad faith and walking away from them.
To be fair, Russia has never played fair.
They held up their end of the bargain until western leaders started changing the rules.As I said
There’s no more deals just shells and missiles.
I’m sorry. Who changed what rules?
Please explain.
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
:)
Who said I expected sensibility?
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
whenever i come across a troll and find I cant resist i type out what i want to say then delete it, i get to say what i want and they dont get fed
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:To be fair, Russia has never played fair.
They held up their end of the bargain until western leaders started changing the rules.As I said
There’s no more deals just shells and missiles.
I’m sorry. Who changed what rules?
Please explain.
Go out and find real information
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
whenever i come across a troll and find I cant resist i type out what i want to say then delete it, i get to say what i want and they dont get fed
Have done that a lot of times.
wookiemeister said:
The Germans and polish would get their arses handed to them. Kalingrad is full of weapons
Kaliningrad may be full of weapons, but there’s not many people there to use them.
Putin pulled pretty much the whole of the 11th Army Corps out of there quite a while back, and sent it into the Ukrainian fight where it got rather badly chewed up.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/10/27/12000-russian-troops-once-posed-a-threat-from-inside-nato-then-they-went-to-ukraine-to-die/?sh=602865f33750
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
:)
Who said I expected sensibility?
to be fair we don’t even engage yet we’re even dumber than the rest
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:They held up their end of the bargain until western leaders started changing the rules.
As I said
There’s no more deals just shells and missiles.
I’m sorry. Who changed what rules?
Please explain.
Talking to a brick wall roughie. Open your eyes a little.Go out and find real information
Yep. you make thick as a brick seem like a comedy.
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
whenever i come across a troll and find I cant resist i type out what i want to say then delete it, i get to say what i want and they dont get fed
I do the same.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:The Germans and polish would get their arses handed to them. Kalingrad is full of weapons
Kaliningrad may be full of weapons, but there’s not many people there to use them.
Putin pulled pretty much the whole of the 11th Army Corps out of there quite a while back, and sent it into the Ukrainian fight where it got rather badly chewed up.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/10/27/12000-russian-troops-once-posed-a-threat-from-inside-nato-then-they-went-to-ukraine-to-die/?sh=602865f33750
Problem with Pootin is that he can’t seem to stop his Generals falling through upstairs windows.
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
Are you mad ?The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
But can they make them again the next day?
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
Are you mad ?The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
Are you mad ?The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
Ploughing a lot of paddocks for next year’s crops.
roughbarked said:
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
Are you mad ?
The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
Ploughing a lot of paddocks for next year’s crops.
blood and bone, great fertiliser
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
Are you mad ?The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
I’m always astounded people don’t understand that the russians capture new territory every day capture towns, villages, bakhmut is essential surrounded.
Its hard to explain that massive missile salvoes happen every week or so.
ChrispenEvan said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
whenever i come across a troll and find I cant resist i type out what i want to say then delete it, i get to say what i want and they dont get fed
I do the same.
wookiemeister said:
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:Are you mad ?
The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
Dunno but plenty are dyingI’m always astounded people don’t understand that the russians capture new territory every day capture towns, villages, bakhmut is essential surrounded.
Its hard to explain that massive missile salvoes happen every week or so.
It is obviously harder to explain to you about the towns that have been taken back by the Ukranians.
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
Are you mad ?The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
But can they make them again the next day?
Once the vast arsenals of China get dragged in you’ll have a 1000 shells a minute.
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:whenever i come across a troll and find I cant resist i type out what i want to say then delete it, i get to say what i want and they dont get fed
I do the same.
Its called shutting out reality
To do that, we do not have to stop reading your posts.
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
captain_spalding said:Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
Dunno but plenty are dyingI’m always astounded people don’t understand that the russians capture new territory every day capture towns, villages, bakhmut is essential surrounded.
Its hard to explain that massive missile salvoes happen every week or so.
It is obviously harder to explain to you about the towns that have been taken back by the Ukranians.
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:I do the same.
Its called shutting out realityTo do that, we do not have to stop reading your posts.
Its all moot for us, there’s no bombs falling on our roofs
Its another forever war created by the yanks.
God knows how much tax payer money has gone to.this money pit.
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:Its called shutting out reality
To do that, we do not have to stop reading your posts.
As you like roughbarkedIts all moot for us, there’s no bombs falling on our roofs
Its another forever war created by the yanks.
God knows how much tax payer money has gone to.this money pit.
Sure that the USA makes a lot of money from weapons and bullets and has a cause to keep the world in foment but so too do other powers and this is an old tale we have all heard before. A dose of reality = Nil wookieisms.
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:To do that, we do not have to stop reading your posts.
As you like roughbarkedIts all moot for us, there’s no bombs falling on our roofs
Its another forever war created by the yanks.
God knows how much tax payer money has gone to.this money pit.
Sure that the USA makes a lot of money from weapons and bullets and has a cause to keep the world in foment but so too do other powers and this is an old tale we have all heard before. A dose of reality = Nil wookieisms.
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:As you like roughbarked
Its all moot for us, there’s no bombs falling on our roofs
Its another forever war created by the yanks.
God knows how much tax payer money has gone to.this money pit.
Sure that the USA makes a lot of money from weapons and bullets and has a cause to keep the world in foment but so too do other powers and this is an old tale we have all heard before. A dose of reality = Nil wookieisms.
I’ll post here when another major city is taken , but of course this would be disinformation
We have heard of each city. It is on the news or don’t you watch that misinformation?
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:Are you mad ?
The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
But can they make them again the next day?
They’ve made at least 1.5 million a year for at least 20 years. The Russians stepped up production in 2014 I’d bet.Once the vast arsenals of China get dragged in you’ll have a 1000 shells a minute.
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.
He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
wookiemeister said:
roughbarked said:
wookiemeister said:As you like roughbarked
Its all moot for us, there’s no bombs falling on our roofs
Its another forever war created by the yanks.
God knows how much tax payer money has gone to.this money pit.
Sure that the USA makes a lot of money from weapons and bullets and has a cause to keep the world in foment but so too do other powers and this is an old tale we have all heard before. A dose of reality = Nil wookieisms.
I’ll post here when another major city is taken , but of course this would be disinformation
It’s all disinformation until there’s confirmation.
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Yes.
roughbarked said:
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Yes.
Except that Biden has said a definite no to offering F16’s at this point in time.
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
ChrispenEvan said:
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
Can happen to any army.
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Russia winning in Ukraine will not stop there. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Moldova will be next. Most of those being NATO countries. Putin will start a war with NATO next, which will go all in and probably end up going nuclear. Russia must be defeated in Ukraine to stop a WW3 from happening.
ChrispenEvan said:
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
I’m sure a lot of Putin’s weaponry is like this.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Russia winning in Ukraine will not stop there. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Moldova will be next. Most of those being NATO countries. Putin will start a war with NATO next, which will go all in and probably end up going nuclear. Russia must be defeated in Ukraine to stop a WW3 from happening.
Yes, success breeds confidence, even in the most nefarious of enterprises.
captain_spalding said:
ChrispenEvan said:
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
Can happen to any army.
True but more so when using older stuff.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Russia winning in Ukraine will not stop there. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Moldova will be next. Most of those being NATO countries. Putin will start a war with NATO next, which will go all in and probably end up going nuclear. Russia must be defeated in Ukraine to stop a WW3 from happening.
He’s already told us all of that.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
I am always a little amused with these conversations. dunno who is dumber, wookie with his crap or those that engage with him hoping for a sensible discussion.
Are you mad ?The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
Unfortunately, hospitals, schools and homes shouldn’t actually be targets.
:(
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Russia winning in Ukraine will not stop there. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Moldova will be next. Most of those being NATO countries. Putin will start a war with NATO next, which will go all in and probably end up going nuclear. Russia must be defeated in Ukraine to stop a WW3 from happening.
Yes, success breeds confidence, even in the most nefarious of enterprises.
Hitler proved that conclusively.
captain_spalding said:
ChrispenEvan said:
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
Can happen to any army.
Although it’s much more likely to happen if you’re overworking the barrels and not replacing them after the appropriate number of rounds. Also applies to warships guns, but they usually don’t get worked as hard as army artillery.
Failure to replace on schedule can suggest a degree of desperation which leads to pushing equipment beyond its parameters, or a failure of logistics in that there simply are no replacements, or poor organisation/leadership with the ‘brass’ just not giving a shit about it.
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:Are you mad ?
The russians are firing 60,000 shells a day.
Some of them even hit what they’re intended to.
Unfortunately, hospitals, schools and homes shouldn’t actually be targets.
:(
The real issue is.. Were they? It seems they hit more residences, hospitals and schools than actual military targets.
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
Wookie just needs to expand his sources a bit.He seems to have a few favourite sources of information, most of which have a pro-Russian slant. And he’s not one to change horses mid-stream. Having made an early declaration that Russia will win, he does stick doggedly to that pronouncement.
Me, i dunno. Right now, i see it as a toss of the coin. Putin won’t back down, because, like Trump, his greatest fear is that he be judged to be ‘a loser’. He probably won’t go nuclear, because that in itself is an admission that he made a mistake, his forces can’t do it ‘conventionally’, and he doesn’t want to contaminate his ‘legacy’ to Russia.
Russia has never been afraid to feed people into a meat-grinder, so maybe they can simply wear down Ukraine by a process of attrition. They’ll possibly try to push Belarus into coming into it, on invented pretexts, which would be a bonus for Putin because it’d weaken Belarus so that it, too, can soon enough be ‘re-absorbed’ into Russia.
Ukraine’s best hope right now is that the West prioritises the provision of better tanks and weapons, and particularly attack aircraft and some dog-fighting aircraft for cover.
Just as Putin started the fight out of fear of NATO moving right up to the border with Russia, so does the West need to keep in mind that ‘losing’ in Ukraine brings Russia right up to the Polish border. Again.
Russia winning in Ukraine will not stop there. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Moldova will be next. Most of those being NATO countries. Putin will start a war with NATO next, which will go all in and probably end up going nuclear. Russia must be defeated in Ukraine to stop a WW3 from happening.
Yes, success breeds confidence, even in the most nefarious of enterprises.
The Putin plan is to re-take the former soviet states and incorporate them back into Russia. Then to have a string of puppet states as a buffer zone. Problem is, none of those peoples want any part of being part of Russia or being vassal states of Russia. But Putin preaches some sort of historic entitlement to those lands.
captain_spalding said:
captain_spalding said:
ChrispenEvan said:
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
Can happen to any army.
Although it’s much more likely to happen if you’re overworking the barrels and not replacing them after the appropriate number of rounds. Also applies to warships guns, but they usually don’t get worked as hard as army artillery.
Failure to replace on schedule can suggest a degree of desperation which leads to pushing equipment beyond its parameters, or a failure of logistics in that there simply are no replacements, or poor organisation/leadership with the ‘brass’ just not giving a shit about it.
This can be the stuff that wins or loses wars.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:Russia winning in Ukraine will not stop there. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Romania and Moldova will be next. Most of those being NATO countries. Putin will start a war with NATO next, which will go all in and probably end up going nuclear. Russia must be defeated in Ukraine to stop a WW3 from happening.
Yes, success breeds confidence, even in the most nefarious of enterprises.
The Putin plan is to re-take the former soviet states and incorporate them back into Russia. Then to have a string of puppet states as a buffer zone. Problem is, none of those peoples want any part of being part of Russia or being vassal states of Russia. But Putin preaches some sort of historic entitlement to those lands.
He does. and it is reminiscent of Hitler wanting back Austria etc.
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/russia_spends_20000_artillery_shells_per_day_production_cannot_keep_up_with_such_rates_ukraines_intelligence_chief-5312.html
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:Yes, success breeds confidence, even in the most nefarious of enterprises.
The Putin plan is to re-take the former soviet states and incorporate them back into Russia. Then to have a string of puppet states as a buffer zone. Problem is, none of those peoples want any part of being part of Russia or being vassal states of Russia. But Putin preaches some sort of historic entitlement to those lands.
He does. and it is reminiscent of Hitler wanting back Austria etc.
Also not unlike China and its ‘nine-dash map’ which it claims backs its ‘historical’ claims to most of the South China Sea.
ChrispenEvan said:
A Russian army 2S7 howitzer after a barrel-failure.PHOTO VIA SOCIAL MEDIA
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/07/25/russias-artillery-is-wearing-out-and-blowing-up/?sh=13a0f4c2734c
Ooh. That would not have been fun to be near.
Michael V said:
ChrispenEvan said:
Ooh. That would not have been fun to be near.
The 2S7 is basically a gun on a carriage, similar to the American M107 and M110
2S7:
The gun would be loaded, and then fired by pulling a lanyard from a position several metres distant and behind the gun.
M107 being fired:
In the event of a catastrophic barrel failure, it could be expected that most fragments would travel laterally and not impact the crew, but there’s still a considerable risk of injury from fragments and explosive blast.
Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday that the only way for Moscow to ensure a lasting peace with Ukraine was to push back the borders of hostile states as far as possible, even if that meant the frontiers of NATO member Poland…
“That is why it is so important to achieve all the goals of the special military operation. To push back the borders that threaten our country as far as possible, even if they are the borders of Poland,” said Medvedev.
Poland shares long eastern borders with Ukraine and with Russia’s ally Belarus, and a frontier of some 200 km (125 miles) in its northeastern corner with the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad.
Any encroachment on Poland’s borders would bring Russia for the first time into direct conflict with NATO. U.S. President Joe Biden pledged in a speech in Warsaw this week to defend “every inch” of NATO territory if it was attacked.
Medvedev, 57, has adopted an increasingly hawkish tone and made a series of outspoken interventions since the war began with some political analysts suggesting he is one of the people that Putin might one day consider as a successor.
Ian said:
Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday that the only way for Moscow to ensure a lasting peace with Ukraine was to push back the borders of hostile states as far as possible, even if that meant the frontiers of NATO member Poland…
Dmitry Medvedev would say that he’s a teapot made from green cheese and that he hails from Mars if Putin told him to.
Russia has always wanted to control Poland, for some reason.
If you go back to the immediate aftermath of the Napoleonic wars, Czar Alexander I proposed a settlement which would have effectively made Poland a puppet state of Russia.
Russia’s vast open flat land has no natural barriers and is pretty much undefendable against invasion, unless the Russians hold the various strategic strongpoints in adjoining countries. This has always been the reason and the justification for the Russian empire.
Problem is that these lands are inhabited, bu non-Russians. As many people live here as live in Russia. So Russia’s strategic defence policy involves all these people sacrificing their own destinies to protect Russia from invaders. Which is kinda unfair on them.
They are sick of it and want nothing to do with Russia. There can be no peace with Russia while they retain this mindset. They had a chance to join the global/western economic system, but they have decided to continue to see that system as the enemy rather than their future.
So fuck ‘em until they’re all dead.
party_pants said:
Russia’s vast open flat land has no natural barriers and is pretty much undefendable against invasion, unless the Russians hold the various strategic strongpoints in adjoining countries. This has always been the reason and the justification for the Russian empire.Problem is that these lands are inhabited, bu non-Russians. As many people live here as live in Russia. So Russia’s strategic defence policy involves all these people sacrificing their own destinies to protect Russia from invaders. Which is kinda unfair on them.
They are sick of it and want nothing to do with Russia. There can be no peace with Russia while they retain this mindset. They had a chance to join the global/western economic system, but they have decided to continue to see that system as the enemy rather than their future.
So fuck ‘em until they’re all dead.
wookiemeister said:
party_pants said:
Russia’s vast open flat land has no natural barriers and is pretty much undefendable against invasion, unless the Russians hold the various strategic strongpoints in adjoining countries. This has always been the reason and the justification for the Russian empire.Problem is that these lands are inhabited, bu non-Russians. As many people live here as live in Russia. So Russia’s strategic defence policy involves all these people sacrificing their own destinies to protect Russia from invaders. Which is kinda unfair on them.
They are sick of it and want nothing to do with Russia. There can be no peace with Russia while they retain this mindset. They had a chance to join the global/western economic system, but they have decided to continue to see that system as the enemy rather than their future.
So fuck ‘em until they’re all dead.
You sound very much like an Austrian artist ive read about.
And you sound very much like a patent locked up in a Psychiatic hospital.
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
party_pants said:
Russia’s vast open flat land has no natural barriers and is pretty much undefendable against invasion, unless the Russians hold the various strategic strongpoints in adjoining countries. This has always been the reason and the justification for the Russian empire.Problem is that these lands are inhabited, bu non-Russians. As many people live here as live in Russia. So Russia’s strategic defence policy involves all these people sacrificing their own destinies to protect Russia from invaders. Which is kinda unfair on them.
They are sick of it and want nothing to do with Russia. There can be no peace with Russia while they retain this mindset. They had a chance to join the global/western economic system, but they have decided to continue to see that system as the enemy rather than their future.
So fuck ‘em until they’re all dead.
You sound very much like an Austrian artist ive read about.
And you sound very much like a patient locked up in a Psychiatic hospital.
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:You sound very much like an Austrian artist ive read about.
And you sound very much like a patient locked up in a Psychiatic hospital.
Apparently he’s not locked up.
In an Epic Battle of Tanks, Russia Was Routed, Repeating Earlier Mistakes
A three-week fight in the town of Vuhledar in southern Ukraine produced what Ukrainian officials say was the biggest tank battle of the war so far, and a stinging setback for the Russians.
By Andrew E. Kramer
March 1, 2023
KURAKHOVE, Ukraine — Before driving into battle in their mud-spattered war machine, a T-64 tank, the three-man Ukrainian crew performs a ritual.
The commander, Pvt. Dmytro Hrebenok, recites the Lord’s Prayer. Then, the men walk around the tank, patting its chunky green armor.
“We say, ‘Please, don’t let us down in battle,’” said Sgt. Artyom Knignitsky, the mechanic. “‘Bring us in and bring us out.’”
Their respect for their tank is understandable. Perhaps no weapon symbolizes the ferocious violence of war more than the main battle tank. Tanks have loomed over the conflict in Ukraine in recent months — militarily and diplomatically — as both sides prepared for offensives. Russia pulled reserves of tanks from Cold War-era storage, and Ukraine prodded Western governments to supply American Abrams and German Leopard 2 tanks.
The sophisticated Western tanks are expected on the battlefield in the next several months. The new Russian armor turned up earlier — and in its first wide-scale deployment was decimated.
A three-week battle on a plain near the coal-mining town of Vuhledar in southern Ukraine produced what Ukrainian officials say was the biggest tank battle of the war so far, and a stinging setback for the Russians.
In the extended battle, both sides sent tanks into the fray, rumbling over dirt roads and maneuvering around tree lines, with the Russians thrusting forward in columns and the Ukrainians maneuvering defensively, firing from a distance or from hiding places as Russian columns came into their sights.
When it was over, not only had Russia failed to capture Vuhledar, but it also had made the same mistake that cost Moscow hundreds of tanks earlier in the war: advancing columns into ambushes.
Blown up on mines, hit with artillery or obliterated by anti-tank missiles, the charred hulks of Russian armored vehicles now litter farm fields all about Vuhledar, according to Ukrainian military drone footage. Ukraine’s military said Russia had lost at least 130 tanks and armored personnel carriers in the battle. That figure could not be independently verified. Ukraine does not disclose how many weapons it loses.
“We studied the roads they used, then hid and waited” to shoot in ambushes, Sergeant Knignitsky said.
Lack of expertise also bedeviled the Russians. Many of their most elite units had been left in shambles from earlier fighting. Their spots were filled with newly conscripted soldiers, unschooled in Ukraine’s tactics for ambushing columns. In one indication that Russia is running short of experienced tank commanders, Ukrainian soldiers said they captured a medic who had been reassigned to operate a tank.
The Russian army has focused on, and even mythologized, tank warfare for decades for its redolence of Russian victories over the Nazis in World War II. Factories in the Ural Mountains have churned out tanks by the thousands. In Vuhledar, by last week Russia had lost so many machines to sustain armored assaults that they had changed tactics and resorted only to infantry attacks, Ukrainian commanders said.
The depth of the Russian defeat was underscored by Russian military bloggers, who have emerged as an influential pro-war voice in the country. Often critical of the military, they have posted angry screeds about the failures of repeated tank assaults, blaming generals for misguided tactics with a storied Russian weapon.
Grey Zone, a Telegram channel affiliated with the Wagner mercenary group, posted on Monday that “relatives of the dead are inclined almost to murder and blood revenge against the general” in charge of the assaults near Vuhledar.
In a detailed interview last week in an abandoned house near the front, Lt. Vladislav Bayak, the deputy commander of Ukraine’s 1st Mechanized Battalion of the 72nd brigade, described how Ukrainian soldiers were able to inflict such heavy losses in what commanders said was the biggest tank battle of the war so far.
Ambushes have been Ukraine’s signature tactic against Russian armored columns since the early days of the war. Working from a bunker in Vuhledar, Lieutenant Bayak spotted the first column of about 15 tanks and armored personnel carriers approaching on a video feed from a drone.
“We were ready,” he said. “We knew something like this would happen.”
They had prepared a kill zone farther along a dirt road that the tanks were rumbling down. The commander needed only to give an order over the radio — “To battle!” — Lieutenant Bayak said.
Anti-tank teams hiding in tree lines along the fields, and armed with American infrared-guided Javelins and Ukrainian laser-guided Stugna-P missiles, powered up their weapons. Farther away, artillery batteries were ready. The dirt road had been left free of mines, while the fields all about were seeded with them, so as to entice the Russians to advance while preventing tanks from turning around once the trap was sprung.
The column of tanks becomes most vulnerable, Lieutenant Bayak said, after the shooting starts and drivers panic and try to turn around — by driving onto the mine-laden shoulder of the road. Blown-up vehicles then act as impediments, slowing or stalling the column. At that point, Ukrainian artillery opens fire, blowing up more armor and killing soldiers who clamber out of disabled machines. A scene of chaos and explosions ensues, the lieutenant said.
Russian commanders have sent armored columns forward for a lack of other options against Ukraine’s well-fortified positions, however costly the tactic, he said.
Over about three weeks of the tank battle, repeated Russian armored assaults floundered. In one instance, Ukrainian commanders called in a strike by HIMARS guided rockets; they are usually used on stationary targets like ammunition depots or barracks, but also proved effective against a stationary tank column.
The Ukrainians also fired with American M777 and French Caesar howitzers, as well as other Western-provided weaponry such as the Javelins.
The Ukrainian tank crew that prayed before each battle nicknamed their tank The Wanderer, for its wandering movements around the battlefield. Between missions it remained hidden in trees under a camouflage net, beside a road churned into a panorama of mud by passing tanks, five miles or so from the front line.
During the battle for Vuhledar, Private Hrebenok, the commander, was ordered to drive forward from that spot on dangerous missions, three or four times per day.
Private Hrebenok, only 20 years old, had no formal training in tank combat when the war started. But in the frantic first days of the war he was assigned to a tank, and has fought continuously in them since, picking up tricks along the way.
Training still looms as a problem. Ukraine, too, is losing skilled soldiers and replacing them with green recruits. And many Ukrainian tank crewmen are being trained on Western tanks in countries like Germany and Britain.
“All my knowledge I gained in the field,” he said. The Russian tank crews, he said, are in contrast mostly new recruits without the benefit of any combat to season them.
In ambushes, the crew hides the tank within range of a road that Russian tanks or armored personnel carriers might travel down. Then it waits quietly. As they sit and prepare for ambush, they must keep the engine warm, because restarting it would take too long. Idling would be noisy. Instead, they burn a small kerosene heater beside the motor.
Once, while they were waiting, a Russian armored personnel carrier passed through their sight and they fired but narrowly missed, damaging but not destroying the machine.
In the last major engagement, a week ago, the order came in during the gray pre-dawn to prepare an ambush for a column of 16 Russian tanks and armored vehicles advancing toward the Ukrainian lines. The crew said their prayer, patted their tank and drove forward.
“We hid the tank in a tree line and waited for them,” Private Hrebenok said. “It’s always scary but we need to destroy them.”
In this instance, they stopped about three miles short of the ambush site, just out of range of return fire, and shot in coordination with a drone pilot who called in coordinates on a radio for targets they could not see directly.
The Russian column stalled on mines and, Private Hrebenok said, The Wanderer opened fire. The Russian tank crews had little chance once they were in the kill zone, he said.
“We destroyed a lot of Russian equipment,” he said. “What they did wrong was come to Ukraine.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tanks.html?
German leopard tank captured by russians – with polished crew.
wookiemeister said:
German leopard tank captured by russians – with POLISH crew.
wookiemeister said:
German leopard tank captured by russians – with polished crew.
There is currently no evidence that a Leopard tank was captured. There is no photographic material. The latter is very important because if the claim were true, Russian soldiers would not miss the opportunity to take a picture next to Leopard with a Russian flag on its turret.
thats the whisper at the moment
there was another one a while back where a HIMARS system was SOLD to the russians.
i’d heard reports that the ukos were deploying the leopards to the front quicker than expected
wookiemeister said:
thats the whisper at the momentthere was another one a while back where a HIMARS system was SOLD to the russians.
i’d heard reports that the ukos were deploying the leopards to the front quicker than expected
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
thats the whisper at the momentthere was another one a while back where a HIMARS system was SOLD to the russians.
i’d heard reports that the ukos were deploying the leopards to the front quicker than expected
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/11euj72/ru_pov_leopard_tank_with_a_polish_crew_captured/
wookiemeister said:
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
thats the whisper at the momentthere was another one a while back where a HIMARS system was SOLD to the russians.
i’d heard reports that the ukos were deploying the leopards to the front quicker than expected
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2023/03/02/leopard-tank-with-polish-mercenaries-captured-in-ukraine-muratov/https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/11euj72/ru_pov_leopard_tank_with_a_polish_crew_captured/
Russian air force ready for action.
ChrispenEvan said:
There is currently no evidence that a Leopard tank was captured. There is no photographic material. The latter is very important because if the claim were true, Russian soldiers would not miss the opportunity to take a picture next to Leopard with a Russian flag on its turret.
It would stand to reason that they’d want to flaunt that.
This is hilarious. And embarrassing. Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Lavrov says “the war we are trying to stop was launched against us” and the Indian audience – supposedly sympathetic – audibly laughs. Russian “diplomats” think that the lies they use to feed Putin’s fantasies could be taken as anything but lies by anyone else.
Spiny Norman said:
This is hilarious. And embarrassing. Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Lavrov says “the war we are trying to stop was launched against us” and the Indian audience – supposedly sympathetic – audibly laughs. Russian “diplomats” think that the lies they use to feed Putin’s fantasies could be taken as anything but lies by anyone else.
It is actually offensive. He’s lucky that it was India. Other parts of the world would have been throwing their shoes at him.
roughbarked said:
Spiny Norman said:
This is hilarious. And embarrassing. Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Lavrov says “the war we are trying to stop was launched against us” and the Indian audience – supposedly sympathetic – audibly laughs. Russian “diplomats” think that the lies they use to feed Putin’s fantasies could be taken as anything but lies by anyone else.It is actually offensive. He’s lucky that it was India. Other parts of the world would have been throwing their shoes at him.
He needs a mass mooning when he talks rubbish likethat.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/03/05/rheinmetall-tank-factory-ukraine/
Arms manufacturer Rheinmetall is holding “promising” talks to build a tank factory in Ukraine following the Russian invasion, the head of the German company said in an interview published Saturday.
dv said:
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/03/05/rheinmetall-tank-factory-ukraine/Arms manufacturer Rheinmetall is holding “promising” talks to build a tank factory in Ukraine following the Russian invasion, the head of the German company said in an interview published Saturday.
how long is that going to take to get set up and going?
“While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Community Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them,” DeSantis said in a statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.
—-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-american-support-for-ukraine-war-russia-not-a-vital-national-interest/
dv said:
“While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Community Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them,” DeSantis said in a statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.—-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-american-support-for-ukraine-war-russia-not-a-vital-national-interest/
They never learn.
Bubblecar said:
dv said:
“While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Community Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them,” DeSantis said in a statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.—-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-american-support-for-ukraine-war-russia-not-a-vital-national-interest/
They never learn.
Chinese Community Party?
furious said:
Bubblecar said:
dv said:
“While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Community Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them,” DeSantis said in a statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.—-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-american-support-for-ukraine-war-russia-not-a-vital-national-interest/
They never learn.
Chinese Community Party?
Crazy US conservatives.
Bubblecar said:
dv said:
“While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Community Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them,” DeSantis said in a statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.—-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-american-support-for-ukraine-war-russia-not-a-vital-national-interest/
They never learn.
All the more reason to supply Ukraine with western fighter aircraft, missiles, tanks and whatever the fuck else they need so this war can be done by the end of this year.
party_pants said:
Bubblecar said:
dv said:
“While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Community Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them,” DeSantis said in a statement to Fox News host Tucker Carlson.—-
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ron-desantis-american-support-for-ukraine-war-russia-not-a-vital-national-interest/
They never learn.
All the more reason to supply Ukraine with western fighter aircraft, missiles, tanks and whatever the fuck else they need so this war can be done by the end of this year.
The reticence doesn’t help anyone.
Maybe Australia should commit 50,000 troops to ukraine ?
I’m all for it. Forget the money put your money where your mouth is. Transfer all the Abrams tanks, bushmasters, jet fighters to ukraine. I’m sure we’d be be defeat all those russians armed with shovels.
I’m continually astounded by the brains trust here.
In other news Russia moves forward on ALL fronts
Ukraine loses something like a 1000 men a day, then you’ve got the wounded.
Bakhmut is now encircled, the russians control the roads in and out by the least by artillery and anti tank missiles.
wookiemeister said:
I’m continually astounded by the brains trust here.
That’s because you identify with fascism and forever yearn for the victory of evil.
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:
I’m continually astounded by the brains trust here.
That’s because you identify with fascism and forever yearn for the victory of evil.
The Azov symbol comes from the 22nd SS panzer division Das Reich.
All those nice gentlemen we support are covered with SS/ NAZI tattoos along with all the NAZI paraphernalia and symbology.
Don’t worry about it , you’ve won – Australia is backing a facist regime.
Write to your local member and try to get him to commit boots on the ground.
wookiemeister said:
I’m continually astounded by the brains trust here.
I’m not surprised by that :P
wookiemeister said:
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:
I’m continually astounded by the brains trust here.
That’s because you identify with fascism and forever yearn for the victory of evil.
BubblesThe Azov symbol comes from the 22nd SS panzer division Das Reich.
All those nice gentlemen we support are covered with SS/ NAZI tattoos along with all the NAZI paraphernalia and symbology.
Don’t worry about it , you’ve won – Australia is backing a facist regime.
Write to your local member and try to get him to commit boots on the ground.
You’re a laughable idiot. All of us here are aware that there are a few far-right elements in Ukraine, absolutely dwarfed by the far-right Russians under the far-tight dictator Putin, whose ambitions mirror those of Hitler (and Stalin, who was himself a nationalist imperialist).
Ukraine is a democratic country led by a centrist liberal Jew, but you know that.
party_pants said:
wookiemeister said:
I’m continually astounded by the brains trust here.
I’m not surprised by that :P
My guesses are when Australia finally gets involved in the war the population will be whittled down to about 500,000. No more ships will come to Australia for a few decades. The main ports won’t be operational, Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne/ capital cities will be too radioactive to live in, you’d probable find smaller ports would pop up naturally where people would fish from.
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:
Bubblecar said:That’s because you identify with fascism and forever yearn for the victory of evil.
BubblesThe Azov symbol comes from the 22nd SS panzer division Das Reich.
All those nice gentlemen we support are covered with SS/ NAZI tattoos along with all the NAZI paraphernalia and symbology.
Don’t worry about it , you’ve won – Australia is backing a facist regime.
Write to your local member and try to get him to commit boots on the ground.
You’re a laughable idiot. All of us here are aware that there are a few far-right elements in Ukraine, absolutely dwarfed by the far-right Russians under the far-tight dictator Putin, whose ambitions mirror those of Hitler (and Stalin, who was himself a nationalist imperialist).
Ukraine is a democratic country led by a centrist liberal Jew, but you know that.
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:
Bubblecar said:That’s because you identify with fascism and forever yearn for the victory of evil.
BubblesThe Azov symbol comes from the 22nd SS panzer division Das Reich.
All those nice gentlemen we support are covered with SS/ NAZI tattoos along with all the NAZI paraphernalia and symbology.
Don’t worry about it , you’ve won – Australia is backing a facist regime.
Write to your local member and try to get him to commit boots on the ground.
You’re a laughable idiot. All of us here are aware that there are a few far-right elements in Ukraine, absolutely dwarfed by the far-right Russians under the far-tight dictator Putin, whose ambitions mirror those of Hitler (and Stalin, who was himself a nationalist imperialist).
Ukraine is a democratic country led by a centrist liberal Jew, but you know that.
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:
Bubblecar said:That’s because you identify with fascism and forever yearn for the victory of evil.
BubblesThe Azov symbol comes from the 22nd SS panzer division Das Reich.
All those nice gentlemen we support are covered with SS/ NAZI tattoos along with all the NAZI paraphernalia and symbology.
Don’t worry about it , you’ve won – Australia is backing a facist regime.
Write to your local member and try to get him to commit boots on the ground.
You’re a laughable idiot. All of us here are aware that there are a few far-right elements in Ukraine, absolutely dwarfed by the far-right Russians under the far-tight dictator Putin, whose ambitions mirror those of Hitler (and Stalin, who was himself a nationalist imperialist).
Ukraine is a democratic country led by a centrist liberal Jew, but you know that.
BBL
Good luck with your war bubbles
as I said before Russia is moving forward on all fronts
Every few weeks they launch massive waves of missiles.
In ww1 the Australian people thought we were winning in Gallipoli!
wookiemeister said:
BBLGood luck with your war bubbles
as I said before Russia is moving forward on all fronts
Every few weeks they launch massive waves of missiles.
In ww1 the Australian people thought we were winning in Gallipoli!
Go and ejaculate in front or your Putin shrine, you twisted fuck.
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:
BBLGood luck with your war bubbles
as I said before Russia is moving forward on all fronts
Every few weeks they launch massive waves of missiles.
In ww1 the Australian people thought we were winning in Gallipoli!
Go and ejaculate in front or your Putin shrine, you twisted fuck.
or = of :)
wookiemeister said:
BBLGood luck with your war bubbles
as I said before Russia is moving forward on all fronts
Every few weeks they launch massive waves of missiles.
In ww1 the Australian people thought we were winning in Gallipoli!
I think you mean the Wagner part of the Russian Army has made a little progress, but the main Russian Army is still the pathetic bumbling out-of-date mess it has proven itself to be. Goodness knows what would happen to it if the Wagner part were to capitulate.
wookiemeister said:
Bubblecar said:
wookiemeister said:Bubbles
The Azov symbol comes from the 22nd SS panzer division Das Reich.
All those nice gentlemen we support are covered with SS/ NAZI tattoos along with all the NAZI paraphernalia and symbology.
Don’t worry about it , you’ve won – Australia is backing a facist regime.
Write to your local member and try to get him to commit boots on the ground.
You’re a laughable idiot. All of us here are aware that there are a few far-right elements in Ukraine, absolutely dwarfed by the far-right Russians under the far-tight dictator Putin, whose ambitions mirror those of Hitler (and Stalin, who was himself a nationalist imperialist).
Ukraine is a democratic country led by a centrist liberal Jew, but you know that.
Bullshit
Okay you don’t know it. You’ve never let the facts get in the way of your outlandish theories and crazy predictions inspired by in this case Russian state propaganda. Maybe you should read the opinions of those more hawkish elements of the Russian establishment who are calling for escalation because they know how badly this war is going for Russia.
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
BBLGood luck with your war bubbles
as I said before Russia is moving forward on all fronts
Every few weeks they launch massive waves of missiles.
In ww1 the Australian people thought we were winning in Gallipoli!
I think you mean the Wagner part of the Russian Army has made a little progress, but the main Russian Army is still the pathetic bumbling out-of-date mess it has proven itself to be. Goodness knows what would happen to it if the Wagner part were to capitulate.
Imagine if Wagner decided that the real prize was Russia…
… and nobody except Wookie has ever discussed Australia getting directly involved in sending troops and aircraft.
hey look, there’s all this talk about the far-right Russians under the far-tight dictator Putin, whose ambitions mirror those of Hitler (and Stalin, who was himself a nationalist imperialist), but even if literally every last Russian were a national socialist, their numbers are dwarfed by the overwhelming socialist nationalism emanating from the DPRNA, independent of any special operations
russia still continues moving forward on all fronts
encirclement of bakhmut continues
uko counter attacks (massive casualties)
That’s right, fuck CHINA¡ Why listen to Ukraine when the rest of the world know better and should bully the damn ASIANS into submission instead¡
But it has been cautiously welcomed by Ukraine as a better alternative to China ramping up support for Moscow.
The move was a symbolic gesture of defiance, three days after the ICC accused Mr Putin and his children’s commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova of the war crime of deporting children from Ukraine to Russia.
The state Investigative Committee said there were no grounds for criminal liability on Mr Putin’s part, and heads of state enjoyed absolute immunity under a 1973 UN convention.
The ICC prosecutor’s actions showed signs of being crimes under Russian law, the committee said, including knowingly accusing an innocent person of a crime.
The prosecutor and judges were also suspected of “preparing an attack on a representative of a foreign state enjoying international protection, in order to complicate international relations”.
The Kremlin has called the issuing of the warrant outrageous but legally void, as Russia is not a signatory to the treaty that created the ICC.
On Monday it said the court’s move was a sign of the “clear hostility” that exists against Russia and against Mr Putin personally.
The ICC officials targeted in the Russian investigation are prosecutor Karim Khan and judges Tomoko Akane, Rosario Salvatore Aitala and Sergio Gerardo Ugalde Godinez.
Russian ambassador accuses ICC of bias
Russia’s ambassador to Australia says the International Criminal Court has “tunnel vision”, questioning its impartiality.
Russian Ambassador to Australia Alexey Pavlovsky speaks with ABC 7.30 host Sarah Ferguson
“The criminal prosecution is obviously illegal, since there are no grounds for criminal liability,” the Russian statement said.
SCIENCE said:
Big export boost last year.
They’re probably counting in all the Ukrainian kids they took, shipping them to China to work in the mobile phone and running shoe factories.
captain_spalding said:
SCIENCE said:
Big export boost last year.
They’re probably counting in all the Ukrainian kids they took, shipping them to China to work in the mobile phone and running shoe factories.
If they are lucky otherwise organ donors
Cymek said:
captain_spalding said:
SCIENCE said:
Big export boost last year.
They’re probably counting in all the Ukrainian kids they took, shipping them to China to work in the mobile phone and running shoe factories.
If they are lucky otherwise organ donors
egg donors
SCIENCE said:
Cymek said:
captain_spalding said:Big export boost last year.
They’re probably counting in all the Ukrainian kids they took, shipping them to China to work in the mobile phone and running shoe factories.
If they are lucky otherwise organ donors
egg donors
Yeah, the Russians need some of those good strong Ukranian genes.
ah well at least Donbas isn’t Manchuria right
“I step on the ground of Bucha today, I really feel great anger for all the atrocious acts,” he said.
https://www.rt.com/russia/573404-ukraine-uk-depleted-uranium/
radioactive tank rounds being sent to ukraine.
guess its a good way of salting the earth and no one can live there again.
my guesses the russians will build their vast forest in the west of ukraine to cover up all the broken cities. the forests will act as a barrier for any further armoured pushes east from NATO.
Does depleted uranium pose a radiation hazard? All uranium isotopes are radioactive. DU is appreciably less radioactive – usually around 40 per cent less – than unprocessed uranium. The activity is mainly in the form of alpha particles, which do not penetrate the skin.
the iraqis complained that the depleted uranium dust was killing their babies and causing mutations – i’m surprised it hasn’t been banned.
i discovered the russians make these 1.5 tonne of eplosive glide bombs – they drop them from aircraft and they just take a glidepath to a target. 1.5 tonnes would obliterate a target. the V2 used to carry a tonne i believe the power of the explosive was mainly absorbed making a crater in the dirt, modern bombs might use a proximity fuse where it explodes just above a target (?). maybe if its target is a building it might be primed so it comes crashing through a few concrete walls then explodes.
The US military will accelerate its shipment of M1 Abrams battle tanks to Ukrainian forces, opting to send an older model after establishing it could take more than a year to send the latest version of the weapon to the battlefield.
Speaking to reporters during a press briefing on Tuesday, Pentagon spokesman Pat Ryder said that while the military initially planned to send the tank’s newer M1A2 variant, it would now supply the previous M1A1 model in order to “significantly expedite delivery timelines.”
“It will … give Ukraine a very similar capability to the M1A2, which includes advanced armor and weapons systems,” Ryder said, stressing that the decision “is about getting this important combat capability into the hands of the Ukrainians sooner rather than later.”
https://youtu.be/kJ6H50fXi70
Germany backs Georgia’s EU bid
How many Russians have been killed in Ukraine?
The death toll probably exceeds all Soviet and Russian wars since 1945 combined
Mar 8th 2023
Nearly 1,200 Russian soldiers were recently killed in a single day around Bakhmut, according to Mark Milley, America’s top general, in an interview with Politico, a news website. “That’s Iwo Jima,” he reflected, referring to a brutal 36-day Pacific battle during the second world war. “That’s Shiloh”—a battle in the American civil war. A recently published paper offers a new assessment of the extraordinary losses Russia is facing in Ukraine.
The Centre for Strategic and International Studies (csis), a think-tank in Washington, says that Russia is likely to have suffered 60,000 to 70,000 combat fatalities in the first year of its invasion, citing American and other Western officials, as well as public reports. Our chart depicts the central estimate in that range. Including those killed, wounded and missing, total casualty numbers swell to 200,000 to 250,000. Calculating such things is a highly uncertain business. But the csis tally is only a little higher than Western government estimates that draw on intelligence.
Stratospheric Russian casualties are unsurprising. Russia’s initial blitzkrieg in February 2022 failed, and the conflict has since turned into a war of attrition: huge volumes of shellfire continue to pound forces on each side. In its quest to capture the eastern city of Bakhmut, which is teetering, Russia sent waves of conscripts and prisoners to fight. They have been mown down in large numbers. For two weeks in late January and early February, as Russia intensified its attacks across eastern Ukraine, its casualties probably reached over 800 per day, killed and wounded, according to British defence intelligence.
This level of carnage far exceeds what Russia has faced in any of its modern conflicts. It lost 95 to 185 soldiers per month in Chechnya between 1999 and 2009 and 130 to 145 soldiers per month in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989. In Ukraine it has seen 5,000 to 5,800 military deaths (including mercenaries) per month. The number of Russian soldiers killed in the past year probably exceeds the death toll in every other Russian and Soviet conflict since 1945, combined. Its casualties are dwarfed only by the second world war, in which the Soviet Union lost more than 8m men.
Russia’s severe losses forced it to conduct a mobilisation drive in September but it has largely frittered away those forces. It could launch another wave of mobilisation, though that would come with political risks. Already, two-thirds of Russians know someone who has been mobilised or is fighting in the war. Moreover, the troops killed in 2022 were many of Russia’s best young officers and most experienced soldiers. The men who replace them will have less training, discipline and skill. Nor will they have the same quality of equipment.
When American intelligence officials briefed Congress on Russian preparations for war last year, they suggested that 25,000 to 50,000 Ukrainian civilians might die. The true total has been considerably smaller: at least 8,000 confirmed civilian deaths, according to the UN. The officials also estimated that Russia would lose 3,000 to 10,000 military personnel—a range that reflected expectations of a relatively short conventional war. They could not have imagined that Russia would immolate an entire army in the space of a year.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/03/08/how-many-russians-have-been-killed-in-ukraine?
Yeah, still not letting Jony travel to Ukraine.
OCDC said:
Yeah, still not letting Jony travel to Ukraine.
Bubblecar’s thinking of going.
Witty Rejoinder said:
How many Russians have been killed in Ukraine?
The death toll probably exceeds all Soviet and Russian wars since 1945 combined
Mar 8th 2023Nearly 1,200 Russian soldiers were recently killed in a single day around Bakhmut, according to Mark Milley, America’s top general, in an interview with Politico, a news website. “That’s Iwo Jima,” he reflected, referring to a brutal 36-day Pacific battle during the second world war. “That’s Shiloh”—a battle in the American civil war. A recently published paper offers a new assessment of the extraordinary losses Russia is facing in Ukraine.
The Centre for Strategic and International Studies (csis), a think-tank in Washington, says that Russia is likely to have suffered 60,000 to 70,000 combat fatalities in the first year of its invasion, citing American and other Western officials, as well as public reports. Our chart depicts the central estimate in that range. Including those killed, wounded and missing, total casualty numbers swell to 200,000 to 250,000. Calculating such things is a highly uncertain business. But the csis tally is only a little higher than Western government estimates that draw on intelligence.
Stratospheric Russian casualties are unsurprising. Russia’s initial blitzkrieg in February 2022 failed, and the conflict has since turned into a war of attrition: huge volumes of shellfire continue to pound forces on each side. In its quest to capture the eastern city of Bakhmut, which is teetering, Russia sent waves of conscripts and prisoners to fight. They have been mown down in large numbers. For two weeks in late January and early February, as Russia intensified its attacks across eastern Ukraine, its casualties probably reached over 800 per day, killed and wounded, according to British defence intelligence.
This level of carnage far exceeds what Russia has faced in any of its modern conflicts. It lost 95 to 185 soldiers per month in Chechnya between 1999 and 2009 and 130 to 145 soldiers per month in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989. In Ukraine it has seen 5,000 to 5,800 military deaths (including mercenaries) per month. The number of Russian soldiers killed in the past year probably exceeds the death toll in every other Russian and Soviet conflict since 1945, combined. Its casualties are dwarfed only by the second world war, in which the Soviet Union lost more than 8m men.
Russia’s severe losses forced it to conduct a mobilisation drive in September but it has largely frittered away those forces. It could launch another wave of mobilisation, though that would come with political risks. Already, two-thirds of Russians know someone who has been mobilised or is fighting in the war. Moreover, the troops killed in 2022 were many of Russia’s best young officers and most experienced soldiers. The men who replace them will have less training, discipline and skill. Nor will they have the same quality of equipment.
When American intelligence officials briefed Congress on Russian preparations for war last year, they suggested that 25,000 to 50,000 Ukrainian civilians might die. The true total has been considerably smaller: at least 8,000 confirmed civilian deaths, according to the UN. The officials also estimated that Russia would lose 3,000 to 10,000 military personnel—a range that reflected expectations of a relatively short conventional war. They could not have imagined that Russia would immolate an entire army in the space of a year.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/03/08/how-many-russians-have-been-killed-in-ukraine?
Awful.
:(
Michael V said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
How many Russians have been killed in Ukraine?
The death toll probably exceeds all Soviet and Russian wars since 1945 combined
Mar 8th 2023Nearly 1,200 Russian soldiers were recently killed in a single day around Bakhmut, according to Mark Milley, America’s top general, in an interview with Politico, a news website. “That’s Iwo Jima,” he reflected, referring to a brutal 36-day Pacific battle during the second world war. “That’s Shiloh”—a battle in the American civil war. A recently published paper offers a new assessment of the extraordinary losses Russia is facing in Ukraine.
The Centre for Strategic and International Studies (csis), a think-tank in Washington, says that Russia is likely to have suffered 60,000 to 70,000 combat fatalities in the first year of its invasion, citing American and other Western officials, as well as public reports. Our chart depicts the central estimate in that range. Including those killed, wounded and missing, total casualty numbers swell to 200,000 to 250,000. Calculating such things is a highly uncertain business. But the csis tally is only a little higher than Western government estimates that draw on intelligence.
Stratospheric Russian casualties are unsurprising. Russia’s initial blitzkrieg in February 2022 failed, and the conflict has since turned into a war of attrition: huge volumes of shellfire continue to pound forces on each side. In its quest to capture the eastern city of Bakhmut, which is teetering, Russia sent waves of conscripts and prisoners to fight. They have been mown down in large numbers. For two weeks in late January and early February, as Russia intensified its attacks across eastern Ukraine, its casualties probably reached over 800 per day, killed and wounded, according to British defence intelligence.
This level of carnage far exceeds what Russia has faced in any of its modern conflicts. It lost 95 to 185 soldiers per month in Chechnya between 1999 and 2009 and 130 to 145 soldiers per month in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989. In Ukraine it has seen 5,000 to 5,800 military deaths (including mercenaries) per month. The number of Russian soldiers killed in the past year probably exceeds the death toll in every other Russian and Soviet conflict since 1945, combined. Its casualties are dwarfed only by the second world war, in which the Soviet Union lost more than 8m men.
Russia’s severe losses forced it to conduct a mobilisation drive in September but it has largely frittered away those forces. It could launch another wave of mobilisation, though that would come with political risks. Already, two-thirds of Russians know someone who has been mobilised or is fighting in the war. Moreover, the troops killed in 2022 were many of Russia’s best young officers and most experienced soldiers. The men who replace them will have less training, discipline and skill. Nor will they have the same quality of equipment.
When American intelligence officials briefed Congress on Russian preparations for war last year, they suggested that 25,000 to 50,000 Ukrainian civilians might die. The true total has been considerably smaller: at least 8,000 confirmed civilian deaths, according to the UN. The officials also estimated that Russia would lose 3,000 to 10,000 military personnel—a range that reflected expectations of a relatively short conventional war. They could not have imagined that Russia would immolate an entire army in the space of a year.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/03/08/how-many-russians-have-been-killed-in-ukraine?
Awful.
:(
Lambs to the slaughter.
fireworks to celebrate the election
Russia will station tactical nuclear weapons in neighbouring Belarus, marking the first time since the mid-1990s that Moscow will have based such arms outside the country.
SCIENCE said:
fireworks to celebrate the election
Russia will station tactical nuclear weapons in neighbouring Belarus, marking the first time since the mid-1990s that Moscow will have based such arms outside the country.
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
fireworks to celebrate the election
Russia will station tactical nuclear weapons in neighbouring Belarus, marking the first time since the mid-1990s that Moscow will have based such arms outside the country.
snap, should we regret seeking the thread
SCIENCE said:
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
fireworks to celebrate the election
Russia will station tactical nuclear weapons in neighbouring Belarus, marking the first time since the mid-1990s that Moscow will have based such arms outside the country.
snap, should we regret seeking the thread
:) I maybe should thank you for redirection?
Well oops ….
Watch as Russian tank commander takes out FIVE of his own men using turret in blundering footage
Spiny Norman said:
Well oops ….Watch as Russian tank commander takes out FIVE of his own men using turret in blundering footage
Russian Urkel makes funny
Spiny Norman said:
Well oops ….Watch as Russian tank commander takes out FIVE of his own men using turret in blundering footage
Gosh!
Hard to please
dv said:
Hard to please
Hungary has had plenty of reasons to be not friendly with Russia.
Bakhmut falls
Some estimates
80,000 ukos dead
At the height of the fighting uko soldier 4 hours life expectancy
The Russian army rolls forward
wookiemeister said:
Bakhmut fallsSome estimates
80,000 ukos dead
At the height of the fighting uko soldier 4 hours life expectancy
The Russian army rolls forward
Sources for those estimates, and for info on Russian advances, please?
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
Bakhmut fallsSome estimates
80,000 ukos dead
At the height of the fighting uko soldier 4 hours life expectancy
The Russian army rolls forward
Sources for those estimates, and for info on Russian advances, please?
Aljazeera , 06 April:
‘Russian forces spearheaded by mercenaries of the Wagner Group seized the centre of the eastern city of Bakhmut during the 58th week of the war. Yet Ukrainian defenders were still holding the Russian army at bay, and their commanders said the Russian offensive was now clearly waning.’
Aljazeera 08 April:
‘Russia has seized the west bank of the Bakhmutka River, endangering a key Ukrainian supply route, in its push to secure control of the devastated eastern city of Bakhmut, the United Kingdom’s defence ministry said.’
No reports of Bakhmut having ‘fallen’ i.e. Russians in control of the city. Fighting appears to be continuing, with the impetus of the Russian push beginning to falter.
Facing critical ammunition shortage, Ukrainian troops ration shells
By Isabelle Khurshudyan and Kamila Hrabchuk
April 8, 2023 at 1:00 a.m. EDT
DONETSK REGION, Ukraine — The artillery shells were stored in a shallow mud dugout, covered with a black plastic tarp to keep them safe. Just 14 rounds remained — evidence of a critical ammunition shortage that has the Ukrainians scrambling for ways to conserve supply until their Western allies can produce or procure more.
The artillery platoon, with the 59th Motorized Brigade in eastern Ukraine, used to fire more than 20 or 30 shells per day with their Soviet-era howitzer. Now, they typically shoot one or two, or none at all.
The ammunition that has pounded parts of Ukraine daily for more than a year has become a precious resource in the artillery war with Russia — and which side conserves shells and rearms faster could turn the tide on the battlefield.
In the dugout, a Ukrainian soldier reached for a round as his commander recited coordinates for their first shot of the day. “Fire,” yelled the commander, whom The Post agreed to identify by his call sign, Spider, due to the security risks. After the blast, he waited, staring at his phone for another order. He didn’t receive one, so he told his men to stand down, not knowing if the shell had hit its target or his commander just didn’t want to spend another one.
Even amid a shortage, Ukraine is firing some 7,700 shells per day, or roughly one every six seconds, according to a Ukrainian military official who spoke on the condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak publicly. Russia, which may also be running low, is firing more — by some estimates triple that amount.
A Ukrainian soldier carries away an artillery shell casing after firing at Russian positions. (Heidi Levine for The Washington Post)
To keep up with their adversary and still conserve ammunition, the Ukrainian military is now pickier in selecting targets, often prioritizing equipment over small groups of infantry. Precision is key because misses mean wasted shells. And in underground workshops across eastern Ukraine, soldiers are using 3D printers and recycling unexploded ordinances to create alternative munitions.
Artillery rounds for Ukraine’s Soviet-era guns, which make up the majority of their arsenal, have long been in short supply. That has forced a reliance on the artillery provided by Kyiv’s Western allies because they use 155mm caliber shells, which Ukraine has more of for now but for far fewer guns.
At the pace Ukraine is firing, those stocks could soon run out, too, as Western countries struggle to ramp up production. In February, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg warned that the “current rate of Ukraine’s ammunition expenditure is many times higher than our current rate of production.”
Nearby Spider’s artillery position, the thunder of a U.S.-provided M777 howitzer, with its 155mm shells, roared every few minutes while he and his men drank tea in a foxhole. “Sometimes we just sit here and listen to the M777 shooting and the Russian creatures shooting back. It’s like a talk between them,” Spider said.
“We don’t have a lot of ammunition, so that’s why we don’t work a lot,” he said.
The countries that still have stocks of Soviet-standard 152mm and 122mm rounds are largely former Soviet republics, many of which are hesitant to sell to Ukraine because of their ties with Russia. Some African and Middle Eastern countries, which have received weapons and ammunition from Russia over the years, also have stocks of those shells. A few former Warsaw Pact countries have the capacity to manufacture the shells but not at the scale and speed Ukraine needs on the battlefield.
Occasionally, a third country friendly to Ukraine will purchase the ammunition — sometimes through a broker — and then supply it to Ukraine in secret to avoid any political fallout for the seller. Often, the result is that one artillery piece on the battlefield may have shells produced in several countries, which soldiers say may not fire the same, affecting accuracy.
“The main issue of concern is sustainability,” Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said. “Former Warsaw Pact countries, they dismantled their production lines of Soviet-caliber ammunition since they became members of NATO. Now, we badly need this Soviet-caliber ammunition, so the question is how to restore production lines.”
Bulgaria has already agreed, as has Poland and Slovakia, according to Ukrainian Defense Ministry spokesman Yuriy Sak. But it’s unclear how long it will take for the needed shells to be produced and reach the battlefield.
In the meantime, the hunt for shells is occasionally perilous. In areas where Russian forces retreated, soldiers wade through mined fields and forest to look for abandoned ammunition. One such group, which was ferrying any shells to the 59th brigade, recently hit unexploded ordnance.
The 14 shells Spider’s platoon has left came from Russian stocks seized in the Kherson region in November. Spider said he didn’t know when he would get more.
The United States has searched worldwide to round up stockpiles of Soviet artillery rounds, but deliveries can take months. On Tuesday, as part of a larger security assistance package, the Pentagon said it would provide an unspecified number of artillery shells, including 122mm caliber rounds it does not produce itself. A workhorse Ukrainian artillery piece, the D-30, uses such rounds.
“We’re incredibly transparent with the Ukrainians, so they have a really good understanding of what ammunition we are planning to provide, when we are planning to provide it,” said a senior U.S. defense official, speaking to reporters on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the Pentagon. “So that enables them to be able to plan their operations and understand where they need to flow equipment.”
The Ukrainians could be holding back some ammunition for a planned spring counteroffensive. Soldiers in the field said what they have now is just enough to repel daily assaults but not to counterattack.
Rob Lee, a military analyst at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, said that he suspects the United States and other Western backers have increased ammunition deliveries ahead of the spring offensive, but shipments could slow in fall and winter.
That raises the stakes for Ukraine to retake a lot of territory soon because a long war would likely favor Russia. U.S. officials have said that China is considering sending Russia 122mm and 152mm shells. Lee said that if that did happen, it “could significantly change the course of the war.”
“This is ultimately an artillery war, so whichever side has more artillery rounds or can produce it more and sustain that long term is going to have a significant advantage,” Lee said. “Artillery ammunition availability is one of the most single important factors in this war.”
Russia is still firing more than Ukraine every day, but Ukrainian officials said they have noticed their enemy become increasingly conservative, a sign they may also be facing a shortage. In social media posts, Russian military bloggers and soldiers have complained about a lack of ammunition.
Col. Gen. Oleksandr Syrsky, Ukraine’s ground forces commander, said that Russian forces continue to fire heavily at priority locations on the front, but “where they are not attacking, they have restrictions on the use of artillery.”
“Due to this, they use tank fire from closed positions,” Syrsky said in February. “Tanks are actually used as substitutes for artillery systems.”
The Ukrainians have also explored creative conservation tactics. In some cases, crews bring unexploded ordinances originally fired by the Russians to secret labs in eastern Ukraine, and the elements are carefully stripped away to create a new munition.
Volunteers and soldiers work with 3D printers to fashion small, relatively inexpensive munitions that can be dropped from drones. Bullets are deconstructed. The ball bearings from a Claymore mine are removed and then used in a different anti-personnel or antitank mine. At one of these sites, there are shrapnel holes in the ceiling — the result of an explosion that occurred during the refashioning process. Two people died.
But while the homemade munitions can replace artillery to bomb an immobile tank, they’re not a substitute for pinning down forces during an offensive — or repelling an assault.
In an underground operations center for the 59th brigade in the Donetsk region, drone footage from 30 miles away played on four mounted monitors. It was a sky-high view of the town of Pervomaiske as it was under attack by Russian forces.
“Where infantry can work without artillery, only infantry works,” said an artillery chief in the room, whose call sign is Shaman. “If there is a small group of the enemy, it all depends on how small it is. If there are two or three people, we don’t fire on them, but if there are 10 or 15, we work. If they move to our positions, it will be an assault action. So then we also have to work — like now, for example.”
The live stream showed a village in ruins with homes reduced to rubble and the ground covered in dark craters — scars of a war that has used an astonishing amount of artillery. A plume of smoke rose over the landscape where another shell had just crashed.
Shaman passed another set of coordinates down to the soldiers operating the howitzers on the ground for the next wave of fire. The Ukrainians that day could use their 155mm rounds while saving their Soviet calibers. But how long would that last?
“At the beginning of the war, we were working to contain the enemy,” Shaman said. “Those were the toughest months, we were stopping them and our Soviet cannons wouldn’t shut up. We exhausted everything we had, but we stopped the enemy. Now, to go on the offensive, contain the enemy … we need more ammunition.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/04/08/ukraine-ammunition-shortage-shells-ration/?
On going strikes by Russian airforce
wookiemeister said:
On going strikes by Russian airforce
But they don’t fly over Ukraine because they get shot down.
:)
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
On going strikes by Russian airforce
But they don’t fly over Ukraine because they get shot down.
:)
What are they striking for? Holiday pay?
furious said:
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
On going strikes by Russian airforce
But they don’t fly over Ukraine because they get shot down.
:)
What are they striking for? Holiday pay?
No matter what any cheer squad for the Russians says, they’ve failed.
Their original mission was a rapid occupation/‘reclamation’ of the whole of Ukraine, pretty much intact, ready to be divvied up among Putin’s favourites, and to boost Putin’s status as a heroic Russian leader. Three days, maybe a week, tops, and they’d be washing the tanks in the Bug River.
They’re now 57 weeks overdue to achieve that.
So, unless you’re willing to believe that their actual objective was to get bogged down for well over a year in a murderous war of attrition in some eastern areas of Ukraine, costing tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of Russian lives and destroying a fair chunk of the Russian military’s inventory, to say nothing of the assets and infrastructure that Putin wanted to gift to his pals, then it has to be recognised that they’ve failed.
Wookie really is a nutter when he fervently believes how swimmingly the ‘special military operation’ is going based on official Kremlin propaganda yet doesn’t accept the views of even more pro-Russian identities who have criticised the war from the right as being mismanaged and have called for an even more militaristic response to the failing campaign. It’s like he’s in employ of Putin and is incapable of even contemplating actual private opinions whether pro or anti war.
captain_spalding said:
furious said:
PermeateFree said:But they don’t fly over Ukraine because they get shot down.
:)
What are they striking for? Holiday pay?
No matter what any cheer squad for the Russians says, they’ve failed.
Their original mission was a rapid occupation/‘reclamation’ of the whole of Ukraine, pretty much intact, ready to be divvied up among Putin’s favourites, and to boost Putin’s status as a heroic Russian leader. Three days, maybe a week, tops, and they’d be washing the tanks in the Bug River.
They’re now 57 weeks overdue to achieve that.
So, unless you’re willing to believe that their actual objective was to get bogged down for well over a year in a murderous war of attrition in some eastern areas of Ukraine, costing tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of Russian lives and destroying a fair chunk of the Russian military’s inventory, to say nothing of the assets and infrastructure that Putin wanted to gift to his pals, then it has to be recognised that they’ve failed.
I always think of “downfall” here, complete removal from reality. You’d think that THIRTY years of lies from western governments about everything would have taught some scepticism – not here.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Wookie really is a nutter when he fervently believes how swimmingly the ‘special military operation’ is going based on official Kremlin propaganda yet doesn’t accept the views of even more pro-Russian identities who have criticised the war from the right as being mismanaged and have called for an even more militaristic response to the failing campaign. It’s like he’s in employ of Putin and is incapable of even contemplating actual private opinions whether pro or anti war.
Its the complete divestment from reality that’s amazing
Looking back on it the russians must have started preparing in 2014 to do this.
Most likely the chinese are supplying shells now, though 1000 artillery pieces would come in handy. The russians have started shifting smaller artillery pieces now – better for clearing buildings I suppose , you pump 100mm shells through windows and walls to clear rooms.
Until very recently the RUAF has stuck to very limited strikes from aircraft ( too many SAMs)
wookiemeister said:
uko cities are being turned into matchsticks
I always think of “downfall” here, complete removal from reality. You’d think that THIRTY years of lies from western governments about everything would have taught some scepticism – not here.
57 weeks overdue.
New countries in NATO.
A border with NATO that’s now 1,300 km longer than it was before.
Tens and tens of thousands of Russians dead, mangled, in a country that few of them cared all that much about a year or so ago.
More Russians fleeing their own country to avoid dying in Ukraine.
Vast numbers of Russian vehicles, aircraft and amounts of equipment reduced to wreckage.
The reputation of the Russian military in tatters (they can’t beat Ukraine: NATO would grind them into powder and piss on the residue).
Putin unable to find a way to stop it. He can’t admit he was wrong, and he can’t admit that anyone else could be right.
I’m not makingthis up. It’s not propaganda. These are straightforward facts.
How isthis in any way a success for Russia?
wookiemeister said:
captain_spalding said:
furious said:What are they striking for? Holiday pay?
No matter what any cheer squad for the Russians says, they’ve failed.
Their original mission was a rapid occupation/‘reclamation’ of the whole of Ukraine, pretty much intact, ready to be divvied up among Putin’s favourites, and to boost Putin’s status as a heroic Russian leader. Three days, maybe a week, tops, and they’d be washing the tanks in the Bug River.
They’re now 57 weeks overdue to achieve that.
So, unless you’re willing to believe that their actual objective was to get bogged down for well over a year in a murderous war of attrition in some eastern areas of Ukraine, costing tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of Russian lives and destroying a fair chunk of the Russian military’s inventory, to say nothing of the assets and infrastructure that Putin wanted to gift to his pals, then it has to be recognised that they’ve failed.
uko cities are being turned into matchsticksI always think of “downfall” here, complete removal from reality. You’d think that THIRTY years of lies from western governments about everything would have taught some scepticism – not here.
Lots of heavy smokers in Russia.
03:56am: Russian missiles target cities across Ukraine, officials say
Russia unleashed a massive missile barrage on cities across Ukraine early Thursday, targeting energy infrastructure facilities, Ukrainian officials and media said.
Air raid sirens wailed all over Ukraine in the first such missile attack in weeks.
The governor of the northeastern Kharkiv region, Oleh Syniehubov, reported more than 15 strikes on Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second largest city.
“Objects of critical infrastructure is again in the crosshairs of the occupants,” he said in a Telegram post.
The governor of the southern Odesa region, Maksym Marchenko, also reported strikes on Odesa, saying that energy facilities and residential buildings were hit.
Explosions were also reported in cities in Dnieper, Lutsk and Rivne.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:uko cities are being turned into matchsticks
I always think of “downfall” here, complete removal from reality. You’d think that THIRTY years of lies from western governments about everything would have taught some scepticism – not here.
57 weeks overdue.
New countries in NATO.
A border with NATO that’s now 1,300 km longer than it was before.
Tens and tens of thousands of Russians dead, mangled, in a country that few of them cared all that much about a year or so ago.
More Russians fleeing their own country to avoid dying in Ukraine.
Vast numbers of Russian vehicles, aircraft and amounts of equipment reduced to wreckage.
The reputation of the Russian military in tatters (they can’t beat Ukraine: NATO would grind them into powder and piss on the residue).
Putin unable to find a way to stop it. He can’t admit he was wrong, and he can’t admit that anyone else could be right.
I’m not makingthis up. It’s not propaganda. These are straightforward facts.
How isthis in any way a success for Russia?
it is all part of a cunning plan. Lose biggly and then get the west to help you rebuild. look at germany and japan.
wookiemeister said:
Its the complete divestment from reality that’s amazing
Yep
wookiemeister said:
03:56am: Russian missiles target cities across Ukraine, officials say
Russia unleashed a massive missile barrage on cities across Ukraine early Thursday, targeting energy infrastructure facilities, Ukrainian officials and media said.Air raid sirens wailed all over Ukraine in the first such missile attack in weeks.
The governor of the northeastern Kharkiv region, Oleh Syniehubov, reported more than 15 strikes on Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second largest city.
“Objects of critical infrastructure is again in the crosshairs of the occupants,” he said in a Telegram post.
The governor of the southern Odesa region, Maksym Marchenko, also reported strikes on Odesa, saying that energy facilities and residential buildings were hit.
Explosions were also reported in cities in Dnieper, Lutsk and Rivne.
What is the Russian measure of success?
How will they, or anyone else, know when they have ‘won’?
The Ukrainians have two measures: 1. prevent the Russians taking the whole of the country. 2. regain the parts that the Russians have taken.
They’re doing ok with No. 1. They still have prospects of achieving No. 2.
What are Russia’s aims?
Their original aims are lost. There has been no rapid take-over of Ukraine. It’s cost many, many times more in blood and treasure than Putin could ever have been led to believe. Much of the value of what they have taken has been wiped out.
Since the loss of those original objectives, they’ve done nothing but flounder. They can neither determine any practical, achievable goals, or work out how to reach them. They continue the fight solely because Putin feels that he can’t afford the loss of ‘face’. And he’s right. There are those who would use the failure against him. So he continues the war, hoping for a pro-Russian miracle.
But, after 58 weeks, there’s been damn few lucky breaks, let alone miracles.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
03:56am: Russian missiles target cities across Ukraine, officials say
Russia unleashed a massive missile barrage on cities across Ukraine early Thursday, targeting energy infrastructure facilities, Ukrainian officials and media said.Air raid sirens wailed all over Ukraine in the first such missile attack in weeks.
The governor of the northeastern Kharkiv region, Oleh Syniehubov, reported more than 15 strikes on Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second largest city.
“Objects of critical infrastructure is again in the crosshairs of the occupants,” he said in a Telegram post.
The governor of the southern Odesa region, Maksym Marchenko, also reported strikes on Odesa, saying that energy facilities and residential buildings were hit.
Explosions were also reported in cities in Dnieper, Lutsk and Rivne.
What is the Russian measure of success?
How will they, or anyone else, know when they have ‘won’?
The Ukrainians have two measures: 1. prevent the Russians taking the whole of the country. 2. regain the parts that the Russians have taken.
They’re doing ok with No. 1. They still have prospects of achieving No. 2.
What are Russia’s aims?
Their original aims are lost. There has been no rapid take-over of Ukraine. It’s cost many, many times more in blood and treasure than Putin could ever have been led to believe. Much of the value of what they have taken has been wiped out.
Since the loss of those original objectives, they’ve done nothing but flounder. They can neither determine any practical, achievable goals, or work out how to reach them. They continue the fight solely because Putin feels that he can’t afford the loss of ‘face’. And he’s right. There are those who would use the failure against him. So he continues the war, hoping for a pro-Russian miracle.
But, after 58 weeks, there’s been damn few lucky breaks, let alone miracles.
Add to the list – the plan to fragment the EU and NATO into factions arguing over how best to respond to the situation. It seems to have driven them (even without the new members) into greater cohesion and clarity in their stance.
party_pants said:
Add to the list – the plan to fragment the EU and NATO into factions arguing over how best to respond to the situation. It seems to have driven them (even without the new members) into greater cohesion and clarity in their stance.
Bismarck knew how that worked.
That there’s nothing like a war to promote unity and common goals among people(s). He used the idea to great effect in the German unificaton.
Putin’s war has shown that the idea also works in unifying multiple countries against a perceived common threat, even when they’re not actually in the war.
It was all very well for Putin to imagine that EU/NATO/West would splinter, as ‘hardline’ nations differed with more ‘moderate’ countries, but it didn’t work out that way.
Turns out that no-one wanted to be on Vlad’s side at all, and some fence-sitters decided that he’s not worth the risk.
I think Putin was very worried about Hunter Biden and his Ukraine ties and what it meant for peace and security in the region.
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:Add to the list – the plan to fragment the EU and NATO into factions arguing over how best to respond to the situation. It seems to have driven them (even without the new members) into greater cohesion and clarity in their stance.
Bismarck knew how that worked.
That there’s nothing like a war to promote unity and common goals among people(s). He used the idea to great effect in the German unificaton.
Putin’s war has shown that the idea also works in unifying multiple countries against a perceived common threat, even when they’re not actually in the war.
It was all very well for Putin to imagine that EU/NATO/West would splinter, as ‘hardline’ nations differed with more ‘moderate’ countries, but it didn’t work out that way.
Turns out that no-one wanted to be on Vlad’s side at all, and some fence-sitters decided that he’s not worth the risk.
Russia is now a has-been, once a world power it has been fritted away because of the excessive greed of a man whose need for more, knew no bounds.
PermeateFree said:
captain_spalding said:
party_pants said:Add to the list – the plan to fragment the EU and NATO into factions arguing over how best to respond to the situation. It seems to have driven them (even without the new members) into greater cohesion and clarity in their stance.
Bismarck knew how that worked.
That there’s nothing like a war to promote unity and common goals among people(s). He used the idea to great effect in the German unificaton.
Putin’s war has shown that the idea also works in unifying multiple countries against a perceived common threat, even when they’re not actually in the war.
It was all very well for Putin to imagine that EU/NATO/West would splinter, as ‘hardline’ nations differed with more ‘moderate’ countries, but it didn’t work out that way.
Turns out that no-one wanted to be on Vlad’s side at all, and some fence-sitters decided that he’s not worth the risk.
Russia is now a has-been, once a world power it has been fritted away because of the excessive greed of a man whose need for more, knew no bounds.
except that they’ve still got nukes, and a permanent seat on the UN security council.
party_pants said:
PermeateFree said:
captain_spalding said:Bismarck knew how that worked.
That there’s nothing like a war to promote unity and common goals among people(s). He used the idea to great effect in the German unificaton.
Putin’s war has shown that the idea also works in unifying multiple countries against a perceived common threat, even when they’re not actually in the war.
It was all very well for Putin to imagine that EU/NATO/West would splinter, as ‘hardline’ nations differed with more ‘moderate’ countries, but it didn’t work out that way.
Turns out that no-one wanted to be on Vlad’s side at all, and some fence-sitters decided that he’s not worth the risk.
Russia is now a has-been, once a world power it has been fritted away because of the excessive greed of a man whose need for more, knew no bounds.
except that they’ve still got nukes, and a permanent seat on the UN security council.
Well it might be about time that the Russians who can see their country being wrecked by a despot, got rid of him.
PermeateFree said:
party_pants said:
PermeateFree said:Russia is now a has-been, once a world power it has been fritted away because of the excessive greed of a man whose need for more, knew no bounds.
except that they’ve still got nukes, and a permanent seat on the UN security council.
Well it might be about time that the Russians who can see their country being wrecked by a despot, got rid of him.
We can only hope so.
wookiemeister said:
captain_spalding said:
furious said:What are they striking for? Holiday pay?
No matter what any cheer squad for the Russians says, they’ve failed.
Their original mission was a rapid occupation/‘reclamation’ of the whole of Ukraine, pretty much intact, ready to be divvied up among Putin’s favourites, and to boost Putin’s status as a heroic Russian leader. Three days, maybe a week, tops, and they’d be washing the tanks in the Bug River.
They’re now 57 weeks overdue to achieve that.
So, unless you’re willing to believe that their actual objective was to get bogged down for well over a year in a murderous war of attrition in some eastern areas of Ukraine, costing tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of Russian lives and destroying a fair chunk of the Russian military’s inventory, to say nothing of the assets and infrastructure that Putin wanted to gift to his pals, then it has to be recognised that they’ve failed.
uko cities are being turned into matchsticksI always think of “downfall” here, complete removal from reality. You’d think that THIRTY years of lies from western governments about everything would have taught some scepticism – not here.
Yeah, the honest truth being broadcast by the russian media is just so legit.
See if you can pick the differences between the original and what the russians publish. It’s not even a good ‘shop job.
“Congrats, the Russian ruble has entered list of top of the world’s worst currencies 👏😏🌪
The ruble continues to depreciate on the Moscow Stock Exchange, renewing the lows since the first month of the war in Ukraine.”
Putins gonna get sick of WINNING all the time… oh, wait, that was different russian.
Disband The United Nations ¡
““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
A lot of that is expansion on things that i more or less raised in ‘point’ form last night. Lyons does raise some additional relevant matters, including Ukraine’s definition of ‘victory’. Zelensky has said that they’ll take back all of Ukraine, presumably including Crimea. That might be ‘a bridge too far’, to borrow an expression from another battle, but there’s no reason to not set the goal as high as that for morale and to propel Ukrainians to push hard to win the steps preceding that aim. The ultimate goal can be adjusted and accepted by Ukrainians as time and circumstances might dictate.
And, as he says, the Russians have had plenty of time to dig in. If a significant change can’t be effected soon, it may turn into something like WW1 trench warfare.
““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
I remember a certain cookermeister who was repeatedly saying, quite gleefully, that the winter would bring an end to Ukraine’s resistance and cripple its alliance with western Europe.
roughbarked said:““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
A lot of that is expansion on things that i more or less raised in ‘point’ form last night. Lyons does raise some additional relevant matters, including Ukraine’s definition of ‘victory’. Zelensky has said that they’ll take back all of Ukraine, presumably including Crimea. That might be ‘a bridge too far’, to borrow an expression from another battle, but there’s no reason to not set the goal as high as that for morale and to propel Ukrainians to push hard to win the steps preceding that aim. The ultimate goal can be adjusted and accepted by Ukrainians as time and circumstances might dictate.
And, as he says, the Russians have had plenty of time to dig in. If a significant change can’t be effected soon, it may turn into something like WW1 trench warfare.
Yeah. Doesn’t look good.
It is a shame all these supposed Ukraine terrorists in Russia can’t take Putin down.
roughbarked said:““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
I remember a certain cookermeister who was repeatedly saying, quite gleefully, that the winter would bring an end to Ukraine’s resistance and cripple its alliance with western Europe.
He’s always got the wrong end of the stick though.
dv said:roughbarked said:““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
I remember a certain cookermeister who was repeatedly saying, quite gleefully, that the winter would bring an end to Ukraine’s resistance and cripple its alliance with western Europe.
He’s always got the wrong end of the stick though.
he hasn’t even got the right stick!
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:I remember a certain cookermeister who was repeatedly saying, quite gleefully, that the winter would bring an end to Ukraine’s resistance and cripple its alliance with western Europe.
He’s always got the wrong end of the stick though.
he hasn’t even got the right stick!
Yeah. Never stir your billy tea with a smooth stick. Because you do know that nobody would wipe their arse with a lumpy stick.
roughbarked said:““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
A lot of that is expansion on things that i more or less raised in ‘point’ form last night. Lyons does raise some additional relevant matters, including Ukraine’s definition of ‘victory’. Zelensky has said that they’ll take back all of Ukraine, presumably including Crimea. That might be ‘a bridge too far’, to borrow an expression from another battle, but there’s no reason to not set the goal as high as that for morale and to propel Ukrainians to push hard to win the steps preceding that aim. The ultimate goal can be adjusted and accepted by Ukrainians as time and circumstances might dictate.
And, as he says, the Russians have had plenty of time to dig in. If a significant change can’t be effected soon, it may turn into something like WW1 trench warfare.
Don’t think so. Ukraine has plenty in reserve and is waiting for the ground to dry out before launching a massive counterattack using a considerable number of recently supplied advanced and superior weaponry from the west. Russia does not have the reserves nor current manpower to advance except in one or two places where they have concentrated their forces and then only very slowly, with the Ukrainians withdrawing in order and in control.
captain_spalding said:roughbarked said:““Ukraine has one summer, and only one summer, to try to win this war,” a former Australian military officer I met in Kyiv told me.
A lot of that is expansion on things that i more or less raised in ‘point’ form last night. Lyons does raise some additional relevant matters, including Ukraine’s definition of ‘victory’. Zelensky has said that they’ll take back all of Ukraine, presumably including Crimea. That might be ‘a bridge too far’, to borrow an expression from another battle, but there’s no reason to not set the goal as high as that for morale and to propel Ukrainians to push hard to win the steps preceding that aim. The ultimate goal can be adjusted and accepted by Ukrainians as time and circumstances might dictate.
And, as he says, the Russians have had plenty of time to dig in. If a significant change can’t be effected soon, it may turn into something like WW1 trench warfare.
Don’t think so. Ukraine has plenty in reserve and is waiting for the ground to dry out before launching a massive counterattack using a considerable number of recently supplied advanced and superior weaponry from the west. Russia does not have the reserves nor current manpower to advance except in one or two places where they have concentrated their forces and then only very slowly, with the Ukrainians withdrawing in order and in control.
If the Ukrainians can (a) get some more aircraft (e.g. MiG-29s) from the EU in time , and (b) put them into service and position/use them well, it could be a big game changer.
Those Russian artillery blokes might have their views on the war situation altered significantly.
captain_spalding said:
PermeateFree said:
captain_spalding said:A lot of that is expansion on things that i more or less raised in ‘point’ form last night. Lyons does raise some additional relevant matters, including Ukraine’s definition of ‘victory’. Zelensky has said that they’ll take back all of Ukraine, presumably including Crimea. That might be ‘a bridge too far’, to borrow an expression from another battle, but there’s no reason to not set the goal as high as that for morale and to propel Ukrainians to push hard to win the steps preceding that aim. The ultimate goal can be adjusted and accepted by Ukrainians as time and circumstances might dictate.
And, as he says, the Russians have had plenty of time to dig in. If a significant change can’t be effected soon, it may turn into something like WW1 trench warfare.
Don’t think so. Ukraine has plenty in reserve and is waiting for the ground to dry out before launching a massive counterattack using a considerable number of recently supplied advanced and superior weaponry from the west. Russia does not have the reserves nor current manpower to advance except in one or two places where they have concentrated their forces and then only very slowly, with the Ukrainians withdrawing in order and in control.
If the Ukrainians can (a) get some more aircraft (e.g. MiG-29s) from the EU in time , and (b) put them into service and position/use them well, it could be a big game changer.
Those Russian artillery blokes might have their views on the war situation altered significantly.
There is a lot of stuff Ukraine has not used yet and is holding in reserve for the counterattack. Russia does not have much in regards sophisticated weapons, relying considerably on artillery pieces that are old and inaccurate. Due to the deadly variety of anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft have not as yet played a large role on the frontline and don’t forget Ukraine is getting missiles that have a range of 150 miles or more that will be a big game changer with Russia being forced to remove gear like expensive ships and aircraft even further from the active front. Things are changing for Ukraine and changing rapidly, all at the expense of Russia.
From what i can see Ukraine are in a little bit of a bind in terms of transitioning from eastern bloc/Soviet equipment to western/NATO equipment. Most of the stuff they started the war with has been the former, plus the large amounts of stuff they have captured. They are also being supplied with new western equipment. Seems like they need a good supply of ammo and spare parts for all the eastern bloc equipment they have too, because they don’t have enough western replacements for all of it. Take artillery for example, they still have hundreds of eastern bloc artillery pieces. They need a supply of ammo for that to make the most use of it. They need someone the west to start making munitions that will be compatible for all their old equipment, as well as supplying standard NATO stuff for all the newly squired weapons.
party_pants said:
From what i can see Ukraine are in a little bit of a bind in terms of transitioning from eastern bloc/Soviet equipment to western/NATO equipment. Most of the stuff they started the war with has been the former, plus the large amounts of stuff they have captured. They are also being supplied with new western equipment. Seems like they need a good supply of ammo and spare parts for all the eastern bloc equipment they have too, because they don’t have enough western replacements for all of it. Take artillery for example, they still have hundreds of eastern bloc artillery pieces. They need a supply of ammo for that to make the most use of it. They need someone the west to start making munitions that will be compatible for all their old equipment, as well as supplying standard NATO stuff for all the newly squired weapons.
Well as an update, it appears Ukraine now has a missile with a range of over 400 km that could currently destroy the bridge from Russia to Crimea. This would be another game changer when Ukraine begins their counterattack in the south, to stop Russia resupplying in that region when they need it most.
PermeateFree said:
party_pants said:
From what i can see Ukraine are in a little bit of a bind in terms of transitioning from eastern bloc/Soviet equipment to western/NATO equipment. Most of the stuff they started the war with has been the former, plus the large amounts of stuff they have captured. They are also being supplied with new western equipment. Seems like they need a good supply of ammo and spare parts for all the eastern bloc equipment they have too, because they don’t have enough western replacements for all of it. Take artillery for example, they still have hundreds of eastern bloc artillery pieces. They need a supply of ammo for that to make the most use of it. They need someone the west to start making munitions that will be compatible for all their old equipment, as well as supplying standard NATO stuff for all the newly squired weapons.
Well as an update, it appears Ukraine now has a missile with a range of over 400 km that could currently destroy the bridge from Russia to Crimea. This would be another game changer when Ukraine begins their counterattack in the south, to stop Russia resupplying in that region when they need it most.
As another update, Ukraine has stockpiles of drones along with new military recognition with their own leadership. It is highly likely that the counteroffensive will be accompanied with swarms of drones for both surveillance and attack.
“Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar says Russian forces are carrying out “uncontrolled, barbaric” industrial-scale logging in Ukraine that will “inevitably lead to catastrophic consequences for the environment.”
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-logging-environmental-impact/32350998.html
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
dv said:I remember a certain cookermeister who was repeatedly saying, quite gleefully, that the winter would bring an end to Ukraine’s resistance and cripple its alliance with western Europe.
He’s always got the wrong end of the stick though.
he hasn’t even got the right stick!
Bakhmut – a major fortification has just fallen , anything up to 80,000 uko dead. It didn’t get cold enough for a full scale winter campaign. It might surprise you but the whole area was hit by snowfall in the last week, is that still cold enough for you ?
The russians moved their equipment up to bakhmut and left one corridor open for NATO forces to keep supplying men and machines into the kill zone.
It might surprise you but it took a few years to clear axis forces out of the soviet union, the front moved forward and back as the soviets traded ground to the nazis to reduce soviet casualties.
The way the russians work is they build steam, more and more tanks, missiles, bombs, bullets, soldiers, jet fighters, bombers, submarines ( that dont take 20 years to go into operation) more and more artillery pieces, more and more artillery shells. Just imagine when the slack of Chinese industry is harnessed to make millions and millions of shells.
PermeateFree said:
party_pants said:
From what i can see Ukraine are in a little bit of a bind in terms of transitioning from eastern bloc/Soviet equipment to western/NATO equipment. Most of the stuff they started the war with has been the former, plus the large amounts of stuff they have captured. They are also being supplied with new western equipment. Seems like they need a good supply of ammo and spare parts for all the eastern bloc equipment they have too, because they don’t have enough western replacements for all of it. Take artillery for example, they still have hundreds of eastern bloc artillery pieces. They need a supply of ammo for that to make the most use of it. They need someone the west to start making munitions that will be compatible for all their old equipment, as well as supplying standard NATO stuff for all the newly squired weapons.
Well as an update, it appears Ukraine now has a missile with a range of over 400 km that could currently destroy the bridge from Russia to Crimea. This would be another game changer when Ukraine begins their counterattack in the south, to stop Russia resupplying in that region when they need it most.
Kingy said:
“Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar says Russian forces are carrying out “uncontrolled, barbaric” industrial-scale logging in Ukraine that will “inevitably lead to catastrophic consequences for the environment.”https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-logging-environmental-impact/32350998.html
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:He’s always got the wrong end of the stick though.
he hasn’t even got the right stick!
The russians did have a winter campaignBakhmut – a major fortification has just fallen , anything up to 80,000 uko dead. It didn’t get cold enough for a full scale winter campaign. It might surprise you but the whole area was hit by snowfall in the last week, is that still cold enough for you ?
The russians moved their equipment up to bakhmut and left one corridor open for NATO forces to keep supplying men and machines into the kill zone.
It might surprise you but it took a few years to clear axis forces out of the soviet union, the front moved forward and back as the soviets traded ground to the nazis to reduce soviet casualties.
The way the russians work is they build steam, more and more tanks, missiles, bombs, bullets, soldiers, jet fighters, bombers, submarines ( that dont take 20 years to go into operation) more and more artillery pieces, more and more artillery shells. Just imagine when the slack of Chinese industry is harnessed to make millions and millions of shells.
Wookie, the Ukrainians were seriously thinking of withdrawing from Bakhmut several weeks ago, but decided to stay in order to tie up and destroy Russian resources and the well-trained Wagner troops. Russia has now added an elite parachute regiment to assist Wagner and so they are making some progress. However they are there, not to hold Bakhmut, but to concentrate and weaken Russia as Ukraine make plans for their counter offensive elsewhere, but the Russians don’t seem to have the intelligence to appreciate this.
wookiemeister said:
PermeateFree said:
party_pants said:
From what i can see Ukraine are in a little bit of a bind in terms of transitioning from eastern bloc/Soviet equipment to western/NATO equipment. Most of the stuff they started the war with has been the former, plus the large amounts of stuff they have captured. They are also being supplied with new western equipment. Seems like they need a good supply of ammo and spare parts for all the eastern bloc equipment they have too, because they don’t have enough western replacements for all of it. Take artillery for example, they still have hundreds of eastern bloc artillery pieces. They need a supply of ammo for that to make the most use of it. They need someone the west to start making munitions that will be compatible for all their old equipment, as well as supplying standard NATO stuff for all the newly squired weapons.
Well as an update, it appears Ukraine now has a missile with a range of over 400 km that could currently destroy the bridge from Russia to Crimea. This would be another game changer when Ukraine begins their counterattack in the south, to stop Russia resupplying in that region when they need it most.
The russians have an extensive SAM system to counter HIMARS.
Unfortunately for the Russians they are not very effective against the HIMARS that are able to strike whatever they are programed to attack.
wookiemeister said:
Kingy said:
“Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar says Russian forces are carrying out “uncontrolled, barbaric” industrial-scale logging in Ukraine that will “inevitably lead to catastrophic consequences for the environment.”https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-logging-environmental-impact/32350998.html
I’m sure you will remember agent Orange being sprayed in Vietnam??
The trees are in plantations that are not especially important from an environmental point of view. It will however reduce the places the Russians can hide from Ukrainian attacks, but the Russians as usual are supremely overconfident and not contemplating their defeat in Ukraine.
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:He’s always got the wrong end of the stick though.
he hasn’t even got the right stick!
The russians did have a winter campaignBakhmut – a major fortification has just fallen , anything up to 80,000 uko dead. It didn’t get cold enough for a full scale winter campaign. It might surprise you but the whole area was hit by snowfall in the last week, is that still cold enough for you ?
The russians moved their equipment up to bakhmut and left one corridor open for NATO forces to keep supplying men and machines into the kill zone.
The russians spent a very large chunk of their offensive winter campaign throwing troops into the meatgrinder at Bakhmut. They have gained a little over half of the city at the cost of half of their army. The Ukes have lost troops there as well but nothing even close to the losses taken by the orcs, but will likely withdraw soon in anticipation of the major Uke offensive and leave the orcs to their Pyrrhic victory.
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
party_pants said:
From what i can see Ukraine are in a little bit of a bind in terms of transitioning from eastern bloc/Soviet equipment to western/NATO equipment. Most of the stuff they started the war with has been the former, plus the large amounts of stuff they have captured. They are also being supplied with new western equipment. Seems like they need a good supply of ammo and spare parts for all the eastern bloc equipment they have too, because they don’t have enough western replacements for all of it. Take artillery for example, they still have hundreds of eastern bloc artillery pieces. They need a supply of ammo for that to make the most use of it. They need someone the west to start making munitions that will be compatible for all their old equipment, as well as supplying standard NATO stuff for all the newly squired weapons.
Well as an update, it appears Ukraine now has a missile with a range of over 400 km that could currently destroy the bridge from Russia to Crimea. This would be another game changer when Ukraine begins their counterattack in the south, to stop Russia resupplying in that region when they need it most.
As another update, Ukraine has stockpiles of drones along with new military recognition with their own leadership. It is highly likely that the counteroffensive will be accompanied with swarms of drones for both surveillance and attack.
Yes, i get that they have access to lots of western tech that is going to make a difference at the high end. But at the lower end they are still going to have thousands of troops armed and equipped with Russian/Soviet origin stuff. They need to keep up supplies of ammo and spares for them too. It might still be the majority of their forces with such equipment, and only their more elite units armed and trained with western gear.
party_pants said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:Well as an update, it appears Ukraine now has a missile with a range of over 400 km that could currently destroy the bridge from Russia to Crimea. This would be another game changer when Ukraine begins their counterattack in the south, to stop Russia resupplying in that region when they need it most.
As another update, Ukraine has stockpiles of drones along with new military recognition with their own leadership. It is highly likely that the counteroffensive will be accompanied with swarms of drones for both surveillance and attack.
Yes, i get that they have access to lots of western tech that is going to make a difference at the high end. But at the lower end they are still going to have thousands of troops armed and equipped with Russian/Soviet origin stuff. They need to keep up supplies of ammo and spares for them too. It might still be the majority of their forces with such equipment, and only their more elite units armed and trained with western gear.
Tens of thousands of their troops have been trained by modern armies, they continue training others not in the front line, plus they have modern small arms and use modern missile weapons. They do have Russian tanks and artillery, but unlike the Russians have modern weapons too that are being constantly replenished.
With the more sophisticated weapons they can fight smart, whilst Russia just throws what they have with an extraordinary amount of wastage. Ukraine is also destroying Russian ammunition stockpiles with their very accurate long-range missiles, whilst being out of range or by quickly moving on from Russian retaliation. The weaponry they are receiving from the west, Russia has little or no defense and are ideal for striking behind their lines to deprive them of supplies and by creating havoc, not to mention destroying their morale.
wookiemeister said:
Kingy said:
“Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar says Russian forces are carrying out “uncontrolled, barbaric” industrial-scale logging in Ukraine that will “inevitably lead to catastrophic consequences for the environment.”https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-logging-environmental-impact/32350998.html
I’m sure you will remember agent Orange being sprayed in Vietnam??
An ironclad excuse.
Go ahead, Russia, no-onecan fault your actions.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
Kingy said:
“Ukrainian Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar says Russian forces are carrying out “uncontrolled, barbaric” industrial-scale logging in Ukraine that will “inevitably lead to catastrophic consequences for the environment.”
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-logging-environmental-impact/32350998.html
I’m sure you will remember agent Orange being sprayed in Vietnam??
An ironclad excuse.
Go ahead, Russia, no-onecan fault your actions.
Multiple wrongs make a right wing nut job convulse in ecstacy¡
SCIENCE said:
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
I’m sure you will remember agent Orange being sprayed in Vietnam??
An ironclad excuse.
Go ahead, Russia, no-onecan fault your actions.
Multiple wrongs make a right wing nut job convulse in ecstacy¡
That one worked out well for you. Meaning I understood WTF you were saying.
As spring offensive nears, Ukraine is drafting reinforcements
By Siobhán O’Grady and Kostiantyn Khudov
April 10, 2023 at 1:00 a.m. EDT
KYIV, Ukraine — The men in uniform could show up almost anywhere, any time.
They knock on civilians’ front doors and randomly stop them on street corners, handing out draft papers that can turn lives upside down.
Ukraine needs more soldiers — and fast. Kyiv is preparing for an imminent assault on Russian occupying forces, and while Ukraine does not disclose its casualty counts, commanders in the field have described large losses. In February, a German official said Berlin believed at least 120,000 Ukrainian soldiers had been killed or wounded since the start of the invasion.
“We need to understand if the war lasts another year, we’re all going to be in the army,” said Sasha, 35, a casting director and amateur kickboxer who is taking a private military training course in the capital in case he is drafted. He spoke on the condition that only his first name be used, because of concerns over publicizing his mobilization status.
A much-hyped spring counteroffensive will rely on both new soldiers and more experienced troops newly trained on donated Western equipment, including Leopard 2 tanks. And the pace and aggression with which officials are now calling on civilian men to report to military offices — or sign up on their own — are sowing panic among those who feel unprepared or unwilling to serve.
Previously, officials could only deliver draft papers to people’s homes, and some avoided the notices by staying at different addresses than where they are officially registered. But new rules have widened the scope of places where men can be stopped and questioned about their draft status.
Martial law in place in Ukraine since February 2022 bars most men between ages 18 and 60 from leaving the country. Under mobilization rules, any man in that range can theoretically be called to fight. Exceptions are made, including for students; parents with three or more children under 18; caretakers of disabled dependents; and those deemed medically unfit, among others.
Almost a quarter-million Ukrainians will turn 18 this year — making them old enough to sign up to fight, or, if they’re male and still in the country, too old to leave.
Over 200 Russian journalists, activists demand release of WSJ reporter
The Ukrainian army has long relied on volunteers. But now many Ukrainian men — even those working as volunteers or doing other useful jobs as civilians — cannot escape the draft, or at least registering in military offices.
Oleksii Kruchukov, 46, a washing machine repairman waiting in line outside a recruitment office in Kyiv, said he was ordered to report there after police broke up a fight he got into on the street. He did not have any valid military exemptions and said he expected that the incident will result in him soon being sent to training, and then the front.
Oleksandr Kostiuk, 52, a road repairman who helped set up barriers against Russian forces around Kyiv last year, recently received his notice via his human resources department at work. He is willing to go to the front if he has to — but fears for his safety. “Now we understand what’s going on, so I’m more nervous,” he said.
Thousands of other civilians are preempting such situations, instead signing up in droves for a force called the Offensive Guard — made up of eight new assault brigades.
Some are responding to the posters plastered across the country’s highways calling on civilians to join — and “turn your rage into a weapon.” The young men may have recently turned 18 and now qualify, or have cleared up family obligations that previously stopped them from joining. Others hope enlisting of their own accord will give them better training and prestige than if they were drafted.
Recruits stand at a firing range in an Azov Brigade training camp outside Kyiv on March 24. (Alice Martins for The Washington Post)
Recruits attend shooting practice at an Azov Brigade training camp outside Kyiv on March 24. (Alice Martins for The Washington Post)
Since early February, more than 5,000 people have applied to join what was formerly known as the Azov Battalion, a controversial former right-wing militia that was incorporated into Ukraine’s national guard. Last year, the battle-hardened group was hailed as heroic for withstanding a months-long siege of the southeastern city of Mariupol.
Then, in February, the Ukrainian Interior Ministry announced that Azov would be expanded into an assault brigade as part of the new Offensive Guard.
Under its rules, Azov only accepts those who sign up of their own accord — not draftees — and it reserves the right to reject people whom it does not believe will be a good fit, which it says allows it to select the most motivated soldiers. Azov has launched a massive recruitment campaign for its new status as a brigade, with many of its men who were captured in Mariupol last year and eventually released now training recruits.
Other civilians, unwilling to enlist just yet but preparing in case they are called up, are attending private trainings or workout sessions so that when the time comes, they are not starting from scratch.
“I’m 100 percent sure I’ll be drafted sooner or later,” Sasha, the casting director informally training with friends in the capital, said. Despite having taken a military course at university that would technically qualify him to serve as an officer in the army, he could barely handle a weapon until recently. Now he believes his civilian days are numbered, “especially with the counteroffensive everyone is waiting for,” and he has enrolled in training.
“I’m literally forcing myself because I understand it might happen,” he said.
His worst fear, he said, is that even after attending basic training, he will not feel ready to fight.
That concern is not unfounded.
On a recent afternoon outside Lyman in eastern Ukraine, a seasoned enlisted leader vented about the quality of initial training among newly arrived troops, describing it as largely glossing over fundamentals needed in the field that have to be taught when they get to their units.
“They’re taught to sing songs and march” in basic training, the leader said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak with reporters.
Once deployed, the troops need instruction even on the most ancient practice of soldiering: how to dig, the leader said. They do not know how to hold their shovels or fortify trenches and fighting positions. For practice, a group of fresh troops dug their spades into a nearby trench line.
The leader walked an instruction line to teach four soldiers how to change their rifle magazines during a firefight, explaining that it won’t be so easy to just stand there. You need to take cover, he explained. Often you’ll need to do it a prone position. The unloaded rifles clicked in discord as the trainees ran through the drills.
Some of them struggled to move quickly and smoothly through the steps of inserting a fresh magazine and sliding the bolt forward. The instructor singled out the worst performer and yelled.
“Adjust your sling!” he roared, as the soldier fidgeted with his weapon. “How are you going to shoot with your sling twisted like that?”
Meanwhile, at a training camp in the Kyiv region, new Azov recruits lined up at a shooting range, learning to use C7A1 rifles. One of their trainers, a Russian-speaking former American Marine who joined Azov and goes by the call sign Frodo, said that “the majority of these guys a month ago were civilians.” One sat against a wall, studying a translated U.S. military handbook.
That they were motivated enough to sign up on their own means they act more like “warriors than soldiers,” Frodo said.
The training condenses the roughly three-month U.S. Marine Corps basic training into just four weeks, he said. During that time, the troops learn everything from marksmanship and cartography to radios and engineering. It’s possible — likely even — they could then be deployed almost immediately to the country’s hottest front lines.
In one tent, dozens of men sat in rows as an instructor went over the different types of mines they needed to be able to identify in the field. Outside, a group of men came jogging across the sand — then all came to an abrupt halt and lit up cigarettes. They only get three smokes a day, Frodo explained, and during training, they are required to run everywhere they go.
“It’s a short period to build discipline,” he said.
It’s fear over this lack of readiness that pushed Sasha and eight other men to attend training at an abandoned warehouse in Kyiv on a recent Sunday. They ran up the stairs in twos and threes, rifles raised to their shoulders as they paused on each landing to check for Russian troops.
“Bam! Bam! Bam! I made contact!” one shouted. Then came a new threat from above: “GRENADE!”
A web of trenches shows Russia fears losing Crimea
They all hit the floor — but nothing exploded. The grenade was plastic, the Russian soldier was cardboard, the warehouse was in an area under Ukrainian control and the consequences for mistakes were minimal. “Whoever died stupidly, you do 30 squats!” the commander yelled.
Their trainer — an active-duty serviceman who trains the men in between assignments and spoke on the condition of anonymity because of security concerns — said that day’s drills were intended to prepare these civilian men, who work in IT, advertising and project management, to clear an area of any Russian forces left over after a counteroffensive.
“I can kill 10 Russians, but if I teach 10 others how to kill, they might kill 100 Russians,” he said. “When I see their motivation and their energy it gives me shivers. Their motivation is my motivation.”
If they do end up on the front, he said, his main goal “is for them to live for as long as possible.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/04/10/ukraine-draft-troops-reinforcements-training/?
roughbarked said:
Damn Assange
Teaching In A Warzone – One Ukrainian Teacher Says “We All Saw What A Whole Country Of Idiots Who Don’t Know How To Think Critically Can Lead To”
As Ukraine prepares its spring offensive, Russia goes from defeat to defeat
By Max Boot
Columnist
April 10, 2023 at 6:45 a.m. EDT
There hasn’t been much movement on the front lines of Ukraine since Ukrainian forces liberated the city of Kherson in early November. It’s easy to conclude that the war is at a stalemate pending the outcome of Ukraine’s widely expected spring offensive — which would benefit from even more Western support than it has been getting. While there might be an element of truth to that assumption, it also masks a lot of developments in the past five months that have been positive for Ukraine and negative for Russia.
One of Vladimir Putin’s pseudo-justifications for his war of aggression was the supposed fear that Ukraine would join NATO. That was never likely (and still isn’t). But, as a result of his invasion, Finland just joined NATO, and Sweden should be close behind. Not only does Finland have Europe’s largest artillery force, but it also recently agreed to combine its warplanes with those of Norway, Denmark and Sweden in a joint operating force. The Nordic partners have 250 front-line combat aircraft, instantly creating a new military superpower in northern Europe. Thanks, Vlad, for making NATO stronger than ever.
So, too, Putin has no one but himself to blame for his recent indictment on war crimes charges by the International Criminal Court. That won’t have any immediate impact, but it’s not the kind of thing anyone wants on his résumé. At a minimum, it further delegitimizes Putin and hampers his travel to avoid arrest. Someday, like Serbian strongman Slobodan Milosevic, he could even wind up on trial for his crimes.
Putin tried to show that he was not isolated by hosting Chinese leader Xi Jinping in Moscow last month. But, beyond the photo op, Putin did not get much out of the meeting: Xi did not agree (at least publicly) to supply weapons to Russia or even to build another gas pipeline from Russia to China. China’s ambassador to the European Union just said that China’s “no limits” friendship with Russia — proclaimed last year by Xi and Putin — is “nothing but rhetoric.”
By contrast, the support that Ukraine has received from more than 50 donor nations is much more than just rhetorical. All that aid has turned Ukraine, during the past year, into one of the strongest military powers in Europe. Putin hoped to use a cutoff of Russian gas supplies to force the Europeans to stop supporting Ukraine. The Russian gambit failed; Europe adjusted to the cutoff and hasn’t wavered in its support of Ukraine.
Ukraine has not only been winning the battle for international support. It has also won another critical and underappreciated victory in recent months in its battle to keep the lights and heat on.
In early October, frustrated that Russia’s advance on the ground had stopped, Putin began targeting Ukrainian electrical and heating infrastructure with missile and drone strikes. The Russian strategy was to make life so unbearable for Ukrainians that they would sue for peace. It didn’t work, thanks to all the air defenses, generators and spare parts sent by the West and all the dedication shown by Ukrainian air-defense and electrical-repair crews. Now spring is arriving, the lights are still on, and, according to one recent poll, 97 percent of Ukrainians still believe they will win the war. Ukraine is even exporting electricity once again.
Russia’s piecemeal offensive in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine hasn’t gone any better than its attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure. A three-week battle for control of the coal-mining town of Vuhledar ended in disaster for the Russians. Repeatedly ambushed by skillful Ukrainian defenders, the lumbering Russian columns had to pull back after losing an estimated 130 tanks and armored personnel carriers and 5,000 soldiers killed, wounded or taken prisoner.
Russia has suffered even heavier losses of personnel — mostly prisoners and mercenaries from the Wagner Group — in its suicidal, human wave attacks on the city of Bakhmut in eastern Ukraine. After more than eight months of fighting, the Russians have moved into the city center and are beginning to envelop Bakhmut on the flanks, but these advances have come at staggering cost. Western intelligence agencies estimated last month that Russia had lost 20,000 to 30,000 killed and wounded in the Bakhmut meat-grinder, making this the bloodiest battle in Europe since World War II.
For 21 days in March, a U.S. official told me, the Russian advance actually stalled altogether. Last week it resumed. The Russians eventually might force the defenders out — but to what end? Bakhmut has little strategic significance and, this official told me, Russian forces are so exhausted they cannot advance past Bakhmut. A Ukrainian military spokesman claims that Bakhmut is Wagner’s “last stand.”
“Russia’s much-ballyhooed Winter Offensive amounted to just more Russian casualties and revealed the lack of operational capabilities, depth and imagination on the Russian side,” retired Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, a former commander of U.S. Army Europe, told me. “The Ukrainians certainly suffered a lot of casualties during this time, but I think they’ve managed to prevent Russia from gaining any successes while simultaneously building up their own capabilities in preparation for a coming counteroffensive.”
That offensive will be undertaken by troops who have been training not only in Ukraine but also in Germany and Poland for combined arms warfare utilizing Western tanks and armored fighting vehicles. They will not have an easy road ahead of them. Offensive operations are inherently more difficult than defensive operations, and the Russians have had months to build multiple lines of fortifications across southern Ukraine and Crimea. One of Putin’s few successes in the past six months was the mobilization of 300,000 draftees. Those are low-quality troops who lack the training or equipment for maneuver warfare, but they can staff static defensive positions across Russian-occupied territory.
Alina Polyakova, president of the Center for European Policy Analysis, cautioned me “that the expectations on the Ukrainians to pull off a miracle counteroffensive are very high, but the capabilities we have provided are not enough to meet those expectations. Putin doesn’t care how many soldiers and equipment he has to throw at this, so unless there is a significant breakthrough in the U.S. to provide jets and long-range missile systems, we need to lower expectations of what the Ukrainians will be able to achieve with the Western weapons they have.”
Her point is well taken; it’s shameful that it took the West so long to supply modern armored vehicles and that it still hasn’t supplied Western fighter aircraft or longer-range rockets. But U.S. officials remain hopeful that the better-trained, better-equipped, better-motivated Ukrainians can sever the Russian “land bridge” between Crimea and Donbas. “That would send an important signal to the Russians,” one U.S. official told me, “that this war is not going well and not worth continuing.”
To be sure, Putin is not giving any indication that he will sue for peace anytime soon. He still hopes to outlast the West, and he leads a vast country with a lot of staying power. No one can yet see how or when this conflict will end. But we shouldn’t lose sight of the central facts revealed by the war: namely, the skill of the Ukrainians and the ineptitude of the Russians.
“It’s been an unbroken string of bad news for Putin and Russian forces,” Hodges told me, “and I see no bright lights on the horizon.” Perhaps that’s why, after a hiatus of a few months, Putin has returned to nuclear saber-rattling — this time by announcing plans to deploy tactical nukes in Belarus. That’s not a sign that he is planning to actually use nukes. It’s a sign that he’s trapped in a quagmire and doesn’t know what to do next.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/04/10/ukraine-russia-defeats-spring-offensive/?
What is the likely end to this war?
If Russian gets pushed back to its borders, will they give up then?
If they run too low on equipment?
Some kind of mix of those?
Spiny Norman said:
What is the likely end to this war?
If Russian gets pushed back to its borders, will they give up then?
If they run too low on equipment?
Some kind of mix of those?
My crystal ball has gone cloudy, sorry.
Michael V said:
Spiny Norman said:
What is the likely end to this war?
If Russian gets pushed back to its borders, will they give up then?
If they run too low on equipment?
Some kind of mix of those?
My crystal ball has gone cloudy, sorry.
I’d say it is going to get to the point where both countries are exhausted.
Spiny Norman said:
What is the likely end to this war?
If Russian gets pushed back to its borders, will they give up then?
If they run too low on equipment?
Some kind of mix of those?
I can’t see Putin surviving if Ukraine beats Russia back to the 2014 borders. Unfortunately that will be a hard task for Ukraine so it may need to put up with enduring Russian occupation for some time. It may simply end up as a war of attrition with little back and forth between Ukraine and Russia and could stay that way for some years.
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:
Spiny Norman said:
What is the likely end to this war?
If Russian gets pushed back to its borders, will they give up then?
If they run too low on equipment?
Some kind of mix of those?
My crystal ball has gone cloudy, sorry.
I’d say it is going to get to the point where both countries are exhausted.
So then it becomes a proxy war nice¡
Could be a decisive Ukrainian victory if they get enough Western assistance.
Whatever happens, life will become more bleak and hopeless for the Russians, but very few of them are willing to organise against Putin and the other hardline imperialists.
Maybe there’ll be a well-placed bomb in the right bunker, eventually.
Let’s hope this chap is correct.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-12/former-putin-minister-says-sanctions-will-work-against-russia/102194568
Michael V said:
Let’s hope this chap is correct.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-12/former-putin-minister-says-sanctions-will-work-against-russia/102194568
Saw something on the teev last night about how Russia is still selling enough oil to prop the economy up.
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:
Let’s hope this chap is correct.
Saw something on the teev last night about how Russia is still selling enough oil to prop the economy up.
So we really should be shifting to renewable photosynthesis of fuel oils, damn what a surprise¡
Meanwhile never sure just how much to trust the “defector says bad things about former host” stories.
CNN
—
Vladimir Putin is poised to sign a law making it tougher for Russians to dodge military conscription, a move that has stoked fears that the Russian president will order another wave of mobilization for Moscow’s war in Ukraine.
The bill would allow for the electronic delivery of military call-up papers, in addition to traditional letters, and would ban those liable for military service from traveling abroad.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/12/europe/russia-conscription-bill-ukraine-intl/index.html
dv said:
CNN —
Vladimir Putin is poised to sign a law making it tougher for Russians to dodge military conscription, a move that has stoked fears that the Russian president will order another wave of mobilization for Moscow’s war in Ukraine.The bill would allow for the electronic delivery of military call-up papers, in addition to traditional letters, and would ban those liable for military service from traveling abroad.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/12/europe/russia-conscription-bill-ukraine-intl/index.html
I think this will result in a decrease in social harmony within Russia.
People desperate enough to leave will find a way.
party_pants said:
dv said:
CNN —
Vladimir Putin is poised to sign a law making it tougher for Russians to dodge military conscription, a move that has stoked fears that the Russian president will order another wave of mobilization for Moscow’s war in Ukraine.The bill would allow for the electronic delivery of military call-up papers, in addition to traditional letters, and would ban those liable for military service from traveling abroad.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/12/europe/russia-conscription-bill-ukraine-intl/index.html
I think this will result in a decrease in social harmony within Russia.
People desperate enough to leave will find a way.
There was a bloke who used to cross the border every day with a wheelbarrow, they knew he was up to no good but they never found anything until years later that they discovered he’d been smuggling wheelbarrows.
What Putin Fears More Than War
The leaked documents on the Ukraine war are chilling
By David Ignatius
Columnist
Updated April 11, 2023 at 3:24 p.m. EDT|Published April 10, 2023 at 7:57 p.m. EDT
James J. Angleton, the CIA counterintelligence chief who was a walking definition of the word “eccentric,” once confided to me that it didn’t matter whether a spy was a double agent or a triple agent, as long as you knew the difference.
I was 29 years old at the time, recently assigned to cover intelligence for the Wall Street Journal, and frankly, I had no idea what Angleton was talking about. But his meaning becomes slightly clearer as we consider the recent leaks of U.S. military intelligence regarding the Ukraine war.
Were these documents disclosed by the Russians to expose Ukrainian weakness and shatter morale, as seems most likely to the analysts I contacted? Or were they actually disseminated by Ukraine, as some Russian bloggers appear to believe, in a plot to make the Kremlin think that Ukraine is weak and thereby disguise its true strengths in advance of a planned spring counteroffensive? Or, perhaps, were they leaked by a disgruntled American with a hidden motive?
We’re in Angleton’s “wilderness of mirrors” here. What matters, as he observed, is that you know what’s accurate and what is a manipulated reflection. Though a few documents appear to have been doctored, an administration official told me Monday: “We’re still examining them, but at first glance, this appears to be real.”
Intelligence is always about what philosophers call epistemology — the study of how we know what we know. But let’s try to focus on facts, by examining some baseline themes in the documents that accord with information from other sources. By restricting ourselves to this subset of information supported by collateral evidence, we can make out some basic themes.
First, Ukraine is facing a severe shortage of air defense weapons that could cost it the war. We knew it had a problem from last week’s announcement that the United States was rushing an additional $2.6 billion in air defense systems and other weapons. The new package includes ammunition for Patriot and High Mobility Artillery Rocket System ( HIMARS) missile batteries; nine gun trucks and 10 anti-drone laser systems; new air surveillance radars, antiaircraft ammunition and Grad rockets.
The raw numbers about the air defense shortage recorded in a Feb. 23 document are scary. Ukraine depends on Soviet-era SA-10s and SA-11s for 89 percent of its air defense over 20,000 feet. At current firing rates, the document predicted, the SA-11s would be depleted by March 31 and the SA-10s by May 2. Other systems “are unable to match the Russian volume” of attacks, and the shortage is so severe that “multiple mitigating options must be simultaneously pursued.”
If Ukraine can’t fill this gap, Russia could finally have the “air superiority” to attack Ukrainian ground targets at will, the document notes. That means Ukraine might not be able to mass ground forces for its counteroffensive or protect its cities.
Second, the West’s “arsenal of democracy” isn’t close to matching Ukraine’s needs. In theory, logistics should be Ukraine’s great advantage against a Russia facing what were supposed to be “crippling” sanctions. But there’s a bad mismatch between Ukraine’s expenditure of missiles and ammunition and the West’s supplies. Partly that’s a result of the Ukrainians firing too much ammunition, but the documents describe desperate efforts to persuade nations such as South Korea and Israel to sell lethal weapons to Ukraine.
This ought to be the trump card for the United States. In World War II, the United States converted manufacturing plants across the country to make tanks, planes and aircraft carriers that simply overwhelmed Japan and Germany. No similar mobilization has taken place this time. Why not? Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has met several times with defense contractors, but why hasn’t President Biden appointed the equivalent of Franklin D. Roosevelt’s War Production Board?
Third, the Biden administration has been more risk averse than some allies — and more than seems necessary. One of the documents says that Britain and France have sent crewed electronic warfare planes over the Black Sea while the United States has sent only drones. Why? The answer is that we don’t want a direct confrontation with Russia, like the one the documents say took place in September, when the Russians nearly shot down a British RC-135.
The administration’s caution is sensible. But are Biden and Austin being too cautious? International law allows surveillance planes to fly 12 miles off the coast. Yet one of the documents draws a wider 50-mile limit around Crimea, describing it as a “SECDEF Directed Standoff.” Pentagon officials evidently decided that the intelligence gained from flying closer wasn’t worth the risk. But they should explain why to the public.
Finally, journalists have been hearing privately for many months from top U.S. officials that they believe this conflict is at a deadly impasse, with heavy casualties depleting both sides. The documents provide a more explicit snapshot. A Feb. 23 analysis described a “grinding campaign of attrition” that “is likely heading toward a stalemate.”
Ukraine is betting that a spring counteroffensive can reverse these trends. The administration backs that gamble, too. “Much will depend on the fighting in the spring as to how much longer the war lasts,” the administration official told me.
“In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies,” British Prime Minister Winston Churchill famously said in 1943. But the Ukraine intelligence documents appear to be largely accurate, and they tell a chilling story.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/04/10/leaked-intelligence-ukraine-chilling/?
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-planned-attack-japan-2021-fsb-letters-1762133
Russia Planned To Attack Japan in 2021: Leaked FSB Letters
Russia was preparing to attack Japan in the summer of 2021, months before President Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, an email featuring a letter from a whistleblower at Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), shared with Newsweek, reveals.
The email, dated March 17, was sent by the agent, dubbed the Wind of Change, to Vladimir Osechkin, a Russian human-rights activist who runs the anti-corruption website Gulagu.net, and is now exiled in France.
The FSB agent writes regular dispatches to Osechkin, revealing the anger and discontent inside the service over the war that began when Putin invaded neighboring Ukraine on February 24.
dv said:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-planned-attack-japan-2021-fsb-letters-1762133Russia Planned To Attack Japan in 2021: Leaked FSB Letters
Russia was preparing to attack Japan in the summer of 2021, months before President Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, an email featuring a letter from a whistleblower at Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), shared with Newsweek, reveals.
The email, dated March 17, was sent by the agent, dubbed the Wind of Change, to Vladimir Osechkin, a Russian human-rights activist who runs the anti-corruption website Gulagu.net, and is now exiled in France.
The FSB agent writes regular dispatches to Osechkin, revealing the anger and discontent inside the service over the war that began when Putin invaded neighboring Ukraine on February 24.
Sorry, but the article makes no sense to me.
party_pants said:
dv said:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-planned-attack-japan-2021-fsb-letters-1762133Russia Planned To Attack Japan in 2021: Leaked FSB Letters
Russia was preparing to attack Japan in the summer of 2021, months before President Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, an email featuring a letter from a whistleblower at Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), shared with Newsweek, reveals.
The email, dated March 17, was sent by the agent, dubbed the Wind of Change, to Vladimir Osechkin, a Russian human-rights activist who runs the anti-corruption website Gulagu.net, and is now exiled in France.
The FSB agent writes regular dispatches to Osechkin, revealing the anger and discontent inside the service over the war that began when Putin invaded neighboring Ukraine on February 24.
Sorry, but the article makes no sense to me.
Well it appears that leaked FSB emails from 2021 indicate Russia planned to attack Japan. Specifically they planned to take the Kuril Islands that have for so long been a sore point between Japan and Russia.
dv said:
party_pants said:
dv said:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-planned-attack-japan-2021-fsb-letters-1762133Russia Planned To Attack Japan in 2021: Leaked FSB Letters
Russia was preparing to attack Japan in the summer of 2021, months before President Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, an email featuring a letter from a whistleblower at Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), shared with Newsweek, reveals.
The email, dated March 17, was sent by the agent, dubbed the Wind of Change, to Vladimir Osechkin, a Russian human-rights activist who runs the anti-corruption website Gulagu.net, and is now exiled in France.
The FSB agent writes regular dispatches to Osechkin, revealing the anger and discontent inside the service over the war that began when Putin invaded neighboring Ukraine on February 24.
Sorry, but the article makes no sense to me.
Well it appears that leaked FSB emails from 2021 indicate Russia planned to attack Japan. Specifically they planned to take the Kuril Islands that have for so long been a sore point between Japan and Russia.
That’s an ongoing feud.
dv said:
party_pants said:
dv said:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-planned-attack-japan-2021-fsb-letters-1762133Russia Planned To Attack Japan in 2021: Leaked FSB Letters
Russia was preparing to attack Japan in the summer of 2021, months before President Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, an email featuring a letter from a whistleblower at Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB), shared with Newsweek, reveals.
The email, dated March 17, was sent by the agent, dubbed the Wind of Change, to Vladimir Osechkin, a Russian human-rights activist who runs the anti-corruption website Gulagu.net, and is now exiled in France.
The FSB agent writes regular dispatches to Osechkin, revealing the anger and discontent inside the service over the war that began when Putin invaded neighboring Ukraine on February 24.
Sorry, but the article makes no sense to me.
Well it appears that leaked FSB emails from 2021 indicate Russia planned to attack Japan. Specifically they planned to take the Kuril Islands that have for so long been a sore point between Japan and Russia.
Russia already have possession and administration of the islands. They seized them back in 1945 immediately after WW2. Japan wants them back, hence this is an ongoing sore point. Makes no sense to me for Russia to attack over an situation that is already to their advantage.
I suppose we’ll have to wait for comment by either party then.
dv said:
I suppose we’ll have to wait for comment by either party then.
I think something has been lost in the translation or reporting of this news.
party_pants said:
dv said:
I suppose we’ll have to wait for comment by either party then.
I think something has been lost in the translation or reporting of this news.
It is wartime. Propaganda abounds.
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:
dv said:
I suppose we’ll have to wait for comment by either party then.
I think something has been lost in the translation or reporting of this news.
It is wartime. Propaganda abounds.
Russia opens probe into alleged beheading video, Norway expels 15 Russian diplomats suspected of spying.
roughbarked said:
roughbarked said:
party_pants said:I think something has been lost in the translation or reporting of this news.
It is wartime. Propaganda abounds.
Russia opens probe into alleged beheading video, Norway expels 15 Russian diplomats suspected of spying.
Here’s the abc take on it. link
“After a brief spat with another person on the server about Minecraft Maps and the war in Ukraine, one of the Discord users replied, ‘here, have some leaked documents’, attaching 10 documents about Ukraine, some of which bore the ‘Top Secret’ markings.”
FWIW I’ve been told that airstrip 1 is having some kind of national emergency broadcast test in the near future. Project fear.
With regards to the war the russians are using 1.5 tonne FAB glide bombs. They are producing larger 9 tonne bombs ( glide bombs ???? – that would be a monster). Presumably these are meant to destroy serious infrastructure like bridges
The NATO bunker story has returned. The russuans flew a hypersonic missile down the exhaust port of a NATO bunker 150m deep, killed up to 200 NATO officers/ general staff.
The russians launch a massive missile salvo about once a month. Uko SAM systems are gradually going dark – the RuAF is dropping bombs rather than relying on artillery – cheaper and more accurate. They are using more guided bombs now. They’ve turned the cities in the cross-hairs into rubble, the uko strategy is to keep sending infantry into artillery kill zones.
In preparation for any “counter offensive” the russians seem to be bringing special vehicles that fire KORNETs and winged drones fitted with KORNET.
The troop groupings to the north and north east are speculated to be the armies to be used for occupation.
wookiemeister said:
FWIW I’ve been told that airstrip 1 is having some kind of national emergency broadcast test in the near future. Project fear.With regards to the war the russians are using 1.5 tonne FAB glide bombs. They are producing larger 9 tonne bombs ( glide bombs ???? – that would be a monster). Presumably these are meant to destroy serious infrastructure like bridges
The NATO bunker story has returned. The russuans flew a hypersonic missile down the exhaust port of a NATO bunker 150m deep, killed up to 200 NATO officers/ general staff.
The russians launch a massive missile salvo about once a month. Uko SAM systems are gradually going dark – the RuAF is dropping bombs rather than relying on artillery – cheaper and more accurate. They are using more guided bombs now. They’ve turned the cities in the cross-hairs into rubble, the uko strategy is to keep sending infantry into artillery kill zones.
Your rebroadcasting of russian propaganda is not entertaining or even funny. I don’t know what your point is.
The russians can turn cities into rubble and rape and kill children, but which side are you on?
Kingy said:
wookiemeister said:
FWIW I’ve been told that airstrip 1 is having some kind of national emergency broadcast test in the near future. Project fear.With regards to the war the russians are using 1.5 tonne FAB glide bombs. They are producing larger 9 tonne bombs ( glide bombs ???? – that would be a monster). Presumably these are meant to destroy serious infrastructure like bridges
The NATO bunker story has returned. The russuans flew a hypersonic missile down the exhaust port of a NATO bunker 150m deep, killed up to 200 NATO officers/ general staff.
The russians launch a massive missile salvo about once a month. Uko SAM systems are gradually going dark – the RuAF is dropping bombs rather than relying on artillery – cheaper and more accurate. They are using more guided bombs now. They’ve turned the cities in the cross-hairs into rubble, the uko strategy is to keep sending infantry into artillery kill zones.
Your rebroadcasting of russian propaganda is not entertaining or even funny. I don’t know what your point is.
The russians can turn cities into rubble and rape and kill children, but which side are you on?
There is no point. Wookie has gone beyond even Russian propaganda; he is reading it and then adding his own spin. Completely divorced from reality. In the real world, Russia’s winter offensives have run out of steam and they are now just sitting back and dreading the expected Ukraine spring offensive that is yet to start. The Russians will pay in their own blood for what they’ve done, and all the troops just want to be out of there and back home.
An intellectual battle rages: Is the U.S. in a proxy war with Russia?
Vladimir Putin says the West is trying to ‘finish’ Russia. The Biden administration denies the accusation. But leaked documents reveal the extent of U.S. involvement in the Ukraine fight.
By Karen DeYoung
April 18, 2023 at 8:00 a.m. EDT
Three days before the Feb. 24 anniversary of his Ukraine invasion, Vladimir Putin outlined what he had learned during a year of war. With its ever-increasing supply of sophisticated weapons, Putin said, the West was now using Ukraine as a “testing range” for its plans to destroy Russia.
Its goal was “to spark a war in Europe, and to eliminate competitors by using a proxy force,” he said in a presidential address. “They plan to finish us once and for all.”
Putin has come a long way since the morning of the invasion, when he outlined a brief “special military operation” that would permanently rescue breakaway regions of Ukraine — Crimea and part of the eastern Donbas region — from the “humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime” during the previous eight years of low-level conflict.
“It is not our plan to occupy the Ukrainian territory. We do not intend to impose anything on anyone by force,” he said in remarks that now seem almost quaint in light of a brutal war to retain and expand Ukrainian territory now occupied by its troops.
But Putin’s more recent depiction of a Western-provoked war threatening Russia’s very existence has resonated, particularly in the Global South, where some countries see the United States engaged in what they consider serial interventions around the world, and have declined to take sides.
Whether Ukraine has become a “proxy” war between great powers has itself become an intellectual and political battlefield. The word has a dictionary definition — a person or entity authorized to act for another. More popularly, it has come to mean sending someone else to do your own dirty work.
Dozens of highly classified documents have been leaked online, revealing sensitive information intended for senior military and intelligence leaders. In an exclusive investigation, The Post also reviewed scores of additional secret documents, most of which have not been made public.
Scores of images recently leaked online, many with classified U.S. military and intelligence assessments, illustrate how deeply the United States is involved in virtually every aspect of the war, with the exception of U.S. boots on the ground.
Maps illustrate troop locations, battle plans and likely outcomes on the battlefield down to the smallest towns, along with the location and strength of Russian defenses. There are lists of weapons systems in use by both sides, casualty estimates, summaries of intercepted conversations and assessments of everything from special forces capabilities to expended ammunition.
The leaked documents confirm in detail that the United States is using its vast array of espionage and surveillance tools — including cutting-edge satellites and signals intelligence — to keep Kyiv ahead of Moscow’s war plans and help them inflict Russian casualties.
But Biden officials adamantly reject the proxy label, noting that it is a defensive war Ukraine didn’t start and that Kyiv is fighting for its very survival. While the United States has a legitimate interest in the outcome, and a legal right to provide aid requested by another sovereign government, Ukraine is running operations on the ground.
“This is a war of choice by Putin,” Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said in an interview. “We are not in a war with Russia, and we won’t be in a war with Russia. … It was Russia’s choice to begin with.”
That may be true, but the administration has given Ukraine more than $40 billion in military and economic aid, along with real-time targeting assistance and sophisticated weapons systems on which it has trained Kyiv’s forces.
Some domestic critics of Biden’s policy openly echo Putin’s charge, if not necessarily his professed assessment that the Western goal is to eliminate Russia. Donald Trump, in a recent presidential campaign video, called the war a “proxy battle” and said the Biden administration was only “pretending to fight for freedom.” Instead, he said, Biden “globalists” were using it to distract Americans “from the havoc they’re creating right here at home.”
In a tweet last month, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) called the war “ridiculous” and said Russia poses no danger to the United States or its NATO allies. “We are paying for … a proxy war with Russia, when I’ve never seen Putin actually show in any detail his plans to invade Europe,” she added. “I don’t believe the lies that I’m being told about this.”
Although he later called Putin a “war criminal,” Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis ®, an undeclared presidential contender, evinced a similar strain of isolationism during a February appearance on “Fox & Friends.” “I don’t think it’s in our interest to be getting into a proxy war with China, getting involved over things like the borderlands or over Crimea,” DeSantis said.
While some conservatives slam what House Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) has called Biden’s “blank check” for Ukraine, others think the president has been too restrained in doling out enough aid for Ukraine to defeat the Russians. “If you want to fight a proxy war against Vladimir Putin’s vindictive, brutal, destructive desire to be remembered as Peter the Great, then fight the damn proxy war; don’t do it halfway,” the National Review’s Jim Geraghty wrote last month.
The administration itself has provided rhetorical grist for Putin’s proxy portrayal. “We want to see Russia weakened” so that it can never invade another country again, Austin said early in the conflict.
At a NATO summit in Madrid last June, Biden said Americans should be prepared to pay higher energy and gasoline prices “for as long as it takes” to defeat Russia, a phrase he has subsequently used in nearly every statement since then about Western aid for Ukraine. While insisting there will be no U.S. or NATO troops in Ukraine, he has said the war must end in a “strategic failure” for Russia.
“Ukraine will never be a victory for Russia. Never,” Biden said as he marked the anniversary of the war’s beginning during a visit in February to Kyiv.
Most Western allies agree. “Whose proxy is Putin? It’s a war of occupation,” Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis said in an interview during a recent Washington visit.
“We stop it once and for all. And then, we can create the actual architecture for the whole continent — that includes Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and keeping everybody safe,” Landsbergis said.
Landsbergis is not alone in professing an expansive goal for the war in Ukraine. Virtually every Western partner — collectively having pledged upward of $80 billion to the war effort — has called not just for Kyiv’s victory but for Putin’s defeat.
While the battle rages on the ground, international law and conflict scholars have fiercely debated whether it constitutes a proxy war. The short answer: it depends on how the term is defined.
“Unfortunately for those who like their strategic concepts to be as precise as the best modern weaponry, ‘proxy wars’ lacks an agreed meaning and is used in different ways,” Lawrence Freedman, professor emeritus of war studies at King’s College London, wrote in a January essay published in Britain’s New Statesman.
“The basic idea is that you get someone else to do your fighting for you,” wrote Freedman, who argued that the concept did not apply to Ukraine.
But Hal Brands, a professor at the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, has said that is precisely what the United States and its allies are doing in Ukraine. “Russia is the target of one of the most ruthlessly effective proxy wars in modern history,” he wrote in an opinion column for Bloomberg shortly after the war began.
“The key to the strategy is to find a committed local partner — a proxy willing to do the killing and dying — and then load it up with the arms, money and intelligence needed to inflict shattering blows on a vulnerable rival,” Brands wrote. “That’s just what Washington and its allies are doing to Russia today.”
More recently, as the brutality of the war has increased, and after Ukraine scored some victories, Brands seems to have been won over, at least to the concept that a world in which Russia emerges victorious is a danger to all. “If nothing else,” he wrote for Bloomberg early this year, “this war has illustrated what a world without American power would look like, and what it looks like when America uses that unmatched power well.”
“A Ukraine left to its own devices would have quickly succumbed to President Vladimir Putin’s invasion,” he wrote. “It would now be suffering show trials, the execution and imprisonment of its leaders, and harsh punishment of anyone who resisted Russian rule.”
The United States didn’t “find” and enlist Ukraine to fight Russia, and it certainly doesn’t tell it what to do, according to Freedman. “The Ukrainian government sets the objectives, and Ukrainian commanders are in charge of the operations.” Most important, U.S. and NATO goals are defensive — protecting their own eastern flank from Russian expansion and ensuring that territorial gains cannot be won by force — rather than offensive. At the same time, NATO has a legitimate “interest in an act of blatant aggression being thwarted,” he wrote.
Others apply a more technical explanation, noting that U.S. support for the Nicaraguan Contras under the Reagan administration in the 1980s — including U.S. assistance in the creation and active supply of a nonstate force, overflying Nicaragua’s territory and covertly mining its harbors to overthrow the Sandinista government — was a classic proxy war. The International Court of Justice found in 1986 that the U.S. harbor-mining and other activities had breached international law.
U.S. support for Afghan mujahideen fighters against the occupying Soviet Union during the Cold War in the 1980s is widely considered a proxy conflict, as was backing for Libyan dissidents who overthrew the government of Moammar Gaddafi during the Obama administration.
Regardless of its rationale for supporting Ukraine, the United States has made some useful gains in assessing Russia’s military capabilities, if only in seeing how a country that it defines as an “acute threat” operates in combat.
“I thought they would do better at combined arms maneuver than they did,” Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in an interview, speaking of the early days of the invasion. “But they were just stumbling around.”
During offensives against Kyiv and elsewhere, Milley said, “it became obvious that the Russian military was not capable of sustaining themselves. … They couldn’t keep their vehicles from getting hit; they didn’t have maintenance on-site or the ability to deliver ammunition.”
“I don’t want to underestimate, but it does give me more confidence. The Russian military is not as good as we previously assessed,” he said.
The leaked Pentagon documents reveal substantial Russian weaknesses, including the decimation of elite forces on the front lines — and show that U.S. officials have been able to glean an extraordinary level of information about Russian operations, for example being able to count how many missiles are being loaded onto bombers and, in some cases, where they intend to strike targets in Ukraine.
But the Western allies have had their own problems, notably in keeping up a steady flow of weaponry and ammunition for Ukraine. “We don’t have a country on wartime mobilization for industry,” Milley said. “The lesson really is sustainment rates. What does that mean to us? We are very deliberately reevaluating our own stockage levels and industrial base relative to the war plans we have on the books for various contingencies,” including a potential conflict with China.
“Have we done the correct estimations of what the requirements are? They’ve been very high in this arguably small, limited war,” Milley said. “What would be the rates in a much larger war that the United States might be involved in?”
As they focus on the war confronting them, many U.S. and Western leaders, while reluctant to voice it publicly, say they are convinced that workable relations with Russia can never be reestablished as long as Putin is in power. But that does not mean, they say, that Putin is correct that their goal is to “finish” Russia.
“The last thing we need is Russia fragmenting and the fate of all those nuclear weapons being uncertain,” former U.S. defense secretary and CIA director Robert M. Gates said recently. “We need a coherent Russian state, and we need a strong government in Moscow.”
U.S. aid has increased considerably this year as Ukrainian forces prepare to launch what is considered a crucial counteroffensive this spring. Asked what happens if Ukraine doesn’t succeed in pushing back Russian front lines and reclaiming significant territory, the Pentagon’s top official deflected.
They are always “looking further down the road,” Austin said. But “we want to make sure that they’re successful in this next fight. I think if you lose focus on that, some of the other stuff doesn’t matter.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/04/18/russia-ukraine-war-us-involvement-leaked-documents/?
So then it becomes a proxy war nice 2018101 ¡
Chinese ambassador sparks European outrage over suggestion former Soviet states don’t exist
Hong Kong
CNN
—
European countries are demanding answers from Beijing after its top diplomat in Paris questioned the sovereignty of former Soviet republics, in comments that could undermine China’s efforts to be seen as a potential mediator between Russia and Ukraine.
Officials from Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, France and the European Union have all hit back against remarks made by China’s ambassador to France Lu Shaye, who said during a television interview that former Soviet countries, including the Baltic states, don’t have “effective status in international law.”
Lu made the remarks in response to a question whether Crimea, which was illegally annexed by Russia in 2014, was part of Ukraine.
“Even these ex-Soviet countries don’t have an effective status in international law because there was no international agreement to materialize their status as sovereign countries,” Lu said, after first noting that the question of Crimea “depends on how the problem is perceived” as the region was “at the beginning Russian” and then “offered to Ukraine during the Soviet era.”
The remarks appeared to disavow the sovereignty of countries that became independent states and United Nations members after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 – and come amid Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine under leader Vladimir Putin’s vision the country should be part of Russia.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/24/china/china-ambassador-lu-shaye-baltic-soviet-states-europe-intl-hnk/index.html
dv said:
Chinese ambassador sparks European outrage over suggestion former Soviet states don’t existHong Kong
CNN —
European countries are demanding answers from Beijing after its top diplomat in Paris questioned the sovereignty of former Soviet republics, in comments that could undermine China’s efforts to be seen as a potential mediator between Russia and Ukraine.Officials from Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, France and the European Union have all hit back against remarks made by China’s ambassador to France Lu Shaye, who said during a television interview that former Soviet countries, including the Baltic states, don’t have “effective status in international law.”
Lu made the remarks in response to a question whether Crimea, which was illegally annexed by Russia in 2014, was part of Ukraine.
“Even these ex-Soviet countries don’t have an effective status in international law because there was no international agreement to materialize their status as sovereign countries,” Lu said, after first noting that the question of Crimea “depends on how the problem is perceived” as the region was “at the beginning Russian” and then “offered to Ukraine during the Soviet era.”
The remarks appeared to disavow the sovereignty of countries that became independent states and United Nations members after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 – and come amid Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine under leader Vladimir Putin’s vision the country should be part of Russia.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/24/china/china-ambassador-lu-shaye-baltic-soviet-states-europe-intl-hnk/index.html
‘…there was no international agreement to materialize their status as sovereign countries’.
Perhaps he can remind us of whose consent or agreement was sought, or required, when Mao proclaimed the Peoples’ Republic of China in 1949.
Ukraine reportedly sets up positions on eastern Dnipro river in attempt to dislodge Russian troops – as it happened
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/apr/23/russia-ukraine-war-live-thousands-evacuated-after-bomb-scare-in-russian-city-struck-by-own-forces
Perhaps relevant on ANZAC day when we are remembering the footsoldiers who died in war, specifically trench warfare. This is helmet video from the front line a few days ago. These Ukrainian soldiers are defending the road that leads into Bahkmut, which has seen some of the bloodiest fighting of the war. They have to hold the road to keep the supply lines open, the russians have to close the road to shut the supply lines. It’s ugly, messy and many people die in this video. This is trench warfare, today. It’s not all flashy fighter planes and missiles, it’s hand to hand combat to the death. These people are fighting and dying for their country.
Do not watch if you can’t handle death on video!
11 minutes. I couldn’t watch it all. Lest we forget.
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1648699457100210182?
Kingy said:
Perhaps relevant on ANZAC day when we are remembering the footsoldiers who died in war, specifically trench warfare. This is helmet video from the front line a few days ago. These Ukrainian soldiers are defending the road that leads into Bahkmut, which has seen some of the bloodiest fighting of the war. They have to hold the road to keep the supply lines open, the russians have to close the road to shut the supply lines. It’s ugly, messy and many people die in this video. This is trench warfare, today. It’s not all flashy fighter planes and missiles, it’s hand to hand combat to the death. These people are fighting and dying for their country.Do not watch if you can’t handle death on video!
11 minutes. I couldn’t watch it all. Lest we forget.
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1648699457100210182?
It’s hard for an actor or an actress to produce a convincing scream. Most attempts fail, they seem to have too much ‘musicality’ to them and lack the ragged edge of the genuine article.
In a similar way, the ‘commander’s’ voice in this video has an edge to it that most actors wouldn’t be able to emulate. Stress, real and raw stress, trying to make sense of a situation that’s been thrust on him, trying to see in all directions at once, make judgments that carry a huge risk, fearful for his own life and the lives of his soldiers, fear of getting everyone killed and getting a lot of people up the road killed, too.
Knowing that everyone will be alive when the director says ‘cut!’ is one thing. Not knowing who will be alive in 30 seconds is another.
captain_spalding said:
Kingy said:
Perhaps relevant on ANZAC day when we are remembering the footsoldiers who died in war, specifically trench warfare. This is helmet video from the front line a few days ago. These Ukrainian soldiers are defending the road that leads into Bahkmut, which has seen some of the bloodiest fighting of the war. They have to hold the road to keep the supply lines open, the russians have to close the road to shut the supply lines. It’s ugly, messy and many people die in this video. This is trench warfare, today. It’s not all flashy fighter planes and missiles, it’s hand to hand combat to the death. These people are fighting and dying for their country.Do not watch if you can’t handle death on video!
11 minutes. I couldn’t watch it all. Lest we forget.
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1648699457100210182?
It’s hard for an actor or an actress to produce a convincing scream. Most attempts fail, they seem to have too much ‘musicality’ to them and lack the ragged edge of the genuine article.
In a similar way, the ‘commander’s’ voice in this video has an edge to it that most actors wouldn’t be able to emulate. Stress, real and raw stress, trying to make sense of a situation that’s been thrust on him, trying to see in all directions at once, make judgments that carry a huge risk, fearful for his own life and the lives of his soldiers, fear of getting everyone killed and getting a lot of people up the road killed, too.
Knowing that everyone will be alive when the director says ‘cut!’ is one thing. Not knowing who will be alive in 30 seconds is another.
I ain’t gunna watch it.
Never fired a gun at another human, nor vice versa.
party_pants said:
captain_spalding said:
Kingy said:
Perhaps relevant on ANZAC day when we are remembering the footsoldiers who died in war, specifically trench warfare. This is helmet video from the front line a few days ago. These Ukrainian soldiers are defending the road that leads into Bahkmut, which has seen some of the bloodiest fighting of the war. They have to hold the road to keep the supply lines open, the russians have to close the road to shut the supply lines. It’s ugly, messy and many people die in this video. This is trench warfare, today. It’s not all flashy fighter planes and missiles, it’s hand to hand combat to the death. These people are fighting and dying for their country.Do not watch if you can’t handle death on video!
11 minutes. I couldn’t watch it all. Lest we forget.
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1648699457100210182?
It’s hard for an actor or an actress to produce a convincing scream. Most attempts fail, they seem to have too much ‘musicality’ to them and lack the ragged edge of the genuine article.
In a similar way, the ‘commander’s’ voice in this video has an edge to it that most actors wouldn’t be able to emulate. Stress, real and raw stress, trying to make sense of a situation that’s been thrust on him, trying to see in all directions at once, make judgments that carry a huge risk, fearful for his own life and the lives of his soldiers, fear of getting everyone killed and getting a lot of people up the road killed, too.
Knowing that everyone will be alive when the director says ‘cut!’ is one thing. Not knowing who will be alive in 30 seconds is another.
I ain’t gunna watch it.
Never fired a gun at another human, nor vice versa.
I should clarify –
never been fired at by another human
never fired another human at a gun either, but that was not the intended reading, even though vice versa produces that phrase, technically.
THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE
The future of the democratic world will be determined by whether the Ukrainian military can break a stalemate with Russia and drive the country backwards—perhaps even out of Crimea for good.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/counteroffensive-ukraine-zelensky-crimea/673781/?
Probably a stupid suggestion but given that Wagner mercs are being poorly supported maybe NATO can just make them a counteroffer.
wookiemeister said:
Bakhmut – a major fortification has just fallen , anything up to 80,000 uko dead.
Wook posted this nearly a month ago …
Bakhmut is still in Ukrainian control.
Don’t give up your day job, champ.
dv said:
wookiemeister said:Bakhmut – a major fortification has just fallen , anything up to 80,000 uko dead.
Wook posted this nearly a month ago …
Bakhmut is still in Ukrainian control.
Don’t give up your day job, champ.
dv said:
dv said:
wookiemeister said:Bakhmut – a major fortification has just fallen , anything up to 80,000 uko dead.
Wook posted this nearly a month ago …
Bakhmut is still in Ukrainian control.
Don’t give up your day job, champ.
monkey skipper said:
dv said:
Russian troops who have been mobilised to fight in Ukraine will have the right to get their sperm frozen for free in cryobanks, Russia’s state news agency TASS has reported.https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/12/28/russian-troops-sent-to-ukraine-entitled-to-sperm-freezing-media
Almost an admission of a one way journey.
I think we’d all agree that it’s time that Australia enter this war unilaterally
Australia could send all of its tanks and around 150,000 troops. The magnificent F35 could take on the russian airforce and SAM systems – remember – it’s invisible to Russian radar systems and they have to raid washing machines to collect valuable chips. With a collective force of all of Australia’s airforce and army we’d show those russkies whose boss. I’m tired of just sending billions of dollars and weapons to arm ukraine.
Of course it would mean Australia would be a target but it would be fine, the russians don’t have any means to retaliate.
wookiemeister said:
I think we’d all agree that it’s time that Australia enter this war unilaterallyAustralia could send all of its tanks and around 150,000 troops. The magnificent F35 could take on the russian airforce and SAM systems – remember – it’s invisible to Russian radar systems and they have to raid washing machines to collect valuable chips. With a collective force of all of Australia’s airforce and army we’d show those russkies whose boss. I’m tired of just sending billions of dollars and weapons to arm ukraine.
Of course it would mean Australia would be a target but it would be fine, the russians don’t have any means to retaliate.
You can do that if you want, but I’m not going to join you.
Believe what?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-05/prigozhin-says-wagner-will-withdraw-from-bakhmut/102311388
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-05/ukraine-delegate-punches-russian-at-black-sea-nations-assembly/102311182
wookiemeister said:
dv said:
dv said:Wook posted this nearly a month ago …
Bakhmut is still in Ukrainian control.
Don’t give up your day job, champ.
There’s a tiny area held by Ukrainian troops. The russians are Blasting them to death.
rubbish.
India-Russia Ties ‘Nose Dive’; After S-400 Shipments, Russia Could Now Suspend Oil Exports To India
Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, while answering a reporter’s question during his press conference in Goa on Friday, May 5, 2023, bluntly implied that in its dealings with Russia, India wants to eat the cake and have it too.
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-russia-ties-nose-dive-after-suspending-s-400-shipments/?
Russia is deploying T55 tanks to Ukraine. This tank was first designed in 1946 but was still being manufactured in the 1970s so I don’t know how old these particular units are.
dv said:
Russia is deploying T55 tanks to Ukraine. This tank was first designed in 1946 but was still being manufactured in the 1970s so I don’t know how old these particular units are.
I recently read that this lot were made in the 1950s.
dv said:
Russia is deploying T55 tanks to Ukraine. This tank was first designed in 1946 but was still being manufactured in the 1970s so I don’t know how old these particular units are.
As i’ve said before, a Russian military precept is that, whatever it is, it need not be the latest and greatest as long as there’s many of them. Sheer weight of numbers, if the enemy has 1,000 bullets, send 1,001 Russian soldiers.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Russia is deploying T55 tanks to Ukraine. This tank was first designed in 1946 but was still being manufactured in the 1970s so I don’t know how old these particular units are.
As i’ve said before, a Russian military precept is that, whatever it is, it need not be the latest and greatest as long as there’s many of them. Sheer weight of numbers, if the enemy has 1,000 bullets, send 1,001 Russian soldiers.
They’ll be starting to run out of cannon fodder soon?
roughbarked said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Russia is deploying T55 tanks to Ukraine. This tank was first designed in 1946 but was still being manufactured in the 1970s so I don’t know how old these particular units are.
As i’ve said before, a Russian military precept is that, whatever it is, it need not be the latest and greatest as long as there’s many of them. Sheer weight of numbers, if the enemy has 1,000 bullets, send 1,001 Russian soldiers.
They’ll be starting to run out of cannon fodder soon?
It’s a question of logistics.
There’s still a vast pool of manpower in the far-flung and sparsely-populated bulk of Russia. The problem is that they’re spread out, in villages and little towns here and there, often far apart. Rounding them up in significant numbers is a hefty exercise, and not suited to rapid expansion of forces in large numbers.
There’s a much more convenient pool of manpower in the bigger cities, where they can be round up wholesale in very short order, but they’ve been avoiding that until now because of the potential political repercussions . Just like his Chinese counter part, Putin’s greatest fear arises from his own population. If Putin significantly pisses off the major urban populations by drafting their sons and getting them killed, then he may see some serious political and civil disobedience.
As long as he’s just getting the rural peasantry and criminals and lunatics killed, the cities don’t care. What Putin has to decide is what’s more important? Avoid drafting urbanites and maybe lose the war, or draft the city kids and maybe win the war, but face trouble at home?
Kaliningrad: Russia fury as Poland body recommends renaming exclave
The Kremlin has reacted furiously after a Polish government body advised using a different name for Russia’s exclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea coast.
The Polish committee said the city and wider area should instead be called Królewiec.
This was the area’s traditional name, it said, and the decision no longer to use an “imposed name” was partly a result of Russia invading Ukraine.
Russia said the decision was “bordering on madness” and “a hostile act”.
—
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65545636
dv said:
Kaliningrad: Russia fury as Poland body recommends renaming exclaveThe Kremlin has reacted furiously after a Polish government body advised using a different name for Russia’s exclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea coast.
The Polish committee said the city and wider area should instead be called Królewiec.
This was the area’s traditional name, it said, and the decision no longer to use an “imposed name” was partly a result of Russia invading Ukraine.
Russia said the decision was “bordering on madness” and “a hostile act”.
—
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65545636
Well, when it comes to decisions that are “bordering on madness” and “ hostile acts”, the Russians as are certainly the experts.
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Kaliningrad: Russia fury as Poland body recommends renaming exclaveThe Kremlin has reacted furiously after a Polish government body advised using a different name for Russia’s exclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea coast.
The Polish committee said the city and wider area should instead be called Królewiec.
This was the area’s traditional name, it said, and the decision no longer to use an “imposed name” was partly a result of Russia invading Ukraine.
Russia said the decision was “bordering on madness” and “a hostile act”.
—
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65545636Well, when it comes to decisions that are “bordering on madness” and “ hostile acts”, the Russians as are certainly the experts.
‘State unable to defend Russia’ says Wagner chief
roughbarked said:
captain_spalding said:
dv said:
Kaliningrad: Russia fury as Poland body recommends renaming exclaveThe Kremlin has reacted furiously after a Polish government body advised using a different name for Russia’s exclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea coast.
The Polish committee said the city and wider area should instead be called Królewiec.
This was the area’s traditional name, it said, and the decision no longer to use an “imposed name” was partly a result of Russia invading Ukraine.
Russia said the decision was “bordering on madness” and “a hostile act”.
—
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65545636Well, when it comes to decisions that are “bordering on madness” and “ hostile acts”, the Russians as are certainly the experts.
‘State unable to defend Russia’ says Wagner chief
or to embiggen that.
It was the latest tirade from Mr Prigozhin in recent days attacking Russia’s military leadership.
“Today one of the units of the defence ministry fled from one of our flanks… exposing the front,” Mr Prigozhin said in a video.
The mercenary group has spearheaded Moscow’s fight for the eastern Ukrainian city.
Mr Prigozhin said soldiers were fleeing because of the “stupidity” of Russian army commanders, who he said were giving “criminal orders”.
“Soldiers should not die because of the absolute stupidity of their leadership,” Mr Prigozhin said.
‘State unable to defend Russia’ says Wagner chief
dv said:
Kaliningrad: Russia fury as Poland body recommends renaming exclaveThe Kremlin has reacted furiously after a Polish government body advised using a different name for Russia’s exclave of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea coast.
The Polish committee said the city and wider area should instead be called Królewiec.
This was the area’s traditional name, it said, and the decision no longer to use an “imposed name” was partly a result of Russia invading Ukraine.
Russia said the decision was “bordering on madness” and “a hostile act”.
—
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65545636
Poland pokes the bear.
:)
#Ukraine is quickly gaining a reputation for innovation and ingenuity. Faced with the #Russian invasion, many inventors and small businesses are answering the call of national defense….
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/05/innovative-submarine-drone-is-ukraines-new-weapon-against-russian-navy/
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/11/europe/prigozhin-russia-ukraine-bakhmut-intl/index.html
In recent days, the boss of the Russian private military company Wagner seems to have gone into social-media meltdown, flooding his Telegram channel and other accounts with ever-more outrageous and provocative statements.Among other things, Prigozhin revealed an apparently humiliating battlefield setback for Russia, fulminating this week that a Russian brigade had “fled” around eastern city of Bakhmut, threatening his troops with encirclement by the Ukrainian forces.
“The situation on the western flanks is developing according to the worst of the predicted scenarios,” Prigozhin complained in an audio message released Thursday. “Those territories that were liberated with the blood and lives of our comrades … are abandoned today almost without any fight by those who are supposed to hold our flanks.”
Earlier in the week, Prigozhin marred Russia’s May 9 Victory Day celebrations with public and profanity-laced criticisms of the country’s top military brass.
“Ukraine played the long game. they’ve been quietly offering good money online for Russian tank parts, especially electronics. underpaid Russians in charge of overseeing mothballed tanks cashed in, and when the war started Russia found out that most of their tanks were inoperable.”
Over the last few days, there has been talk of the Ukrainian counter offensive getting under way.
Now, it’s official:
“Russian Defense Ministry denied Ukrainian breakthrough at several frontlines”
South Africa’s neutrality in question.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/us-envoy-says-russian-ship-picked-up-weapons-in-south-africa/ar-AA1b4303?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=47475d40451e4200b9b73dbce3f13714&ei=19
Kingy said:
“Ukraine played the long game. they’ve been quietly offering good money online for Russian tank parts, especially electronics. underpaid Russians in charge of overseeing mothballed tanks cashed in, and when the war started Russia found out that most of their tanks were inoperable.”
LOL
Kingy said:
Over the last few days, there has been talk of the Ukrainian counter offensive getting under way.Now, it’s official:
“Russian Defense Ministry denied Ukrainian breakthrough at several frontlines”
LOL
It is becoming increasingly obvious that there are a lot of Russian soldiers who do not want to be in this war, and when the Ukrainians push hard these Russians are running. They also know the Ukrainians are using advanced weaponry and the likelihood of them getting killed is very high, so who could blame them for wanting to get out of there, which will play into the Ukrainian hands once they break through the main Russian defenses, permitting them (again) to quickly take large areas of enemy held territory.
PermeateFree said:
It is becoming increasingly obvious that there are a lot of Russian soldiers who do not want to be in this war, and when the Ukrainians push hard these Russians are running. They also know the Ukrainians are using advanced weaponry and the likelihood of them getting killed is very high, so who could blame them for wanting to get out of there, which will play into the Ukrainian hands once they break through the main Russian defenses, permitting them (again) to quickly take large areas of enemy held territory.
That may well prove to be the case, but it still won’t be no day out at Disneyland.
captain_spalding said:
PermeateFree said:
It is becoming increasingly obvious that there are a lot of Russian soldiers who do not want to be in this war, and when the Ukrainians push hard these Russians are running. They also know the Ukrainians are using advanced weaponry and the likelihood of them getting killed is very high, so who could blame them for wanting to get out of there, which will play into the Ukrainian hands once they break through the main Russian defenses, permitting them (again) to quickly take large areas of enemy held territory.
That may well prove to be the case, but it still won’t be no day out at Disneyland.
Don’t think anyone is queuing for entry tickets. However regardless of the difficulties, the situation for the Ukrainians is running very much in their favour.
PermeateFree said:
captain_spalding said:
PermeateFree said:
It is becoming increasingly obvious that there are a lot of Russian soldiers who do not want to be in this war, and when the Ukrainians push hard these Russians are running. They also know the Ukrainians are using advanced weaponry and the likelihood of them getting killed is very high, so who could blame them for wanting to get out of there, which will play into the Ukrainian hands once they break through the main Russian defenses, permitting them (again) to quickly take large areas of enemy held territory.
That may well prove to be the case, but it still won’t be no day out at Disneyland.
Don’t think anyone is queuing for entry tickets. However regardless of the difficulties, the situation for the Ukrainians is running very much in their favour.
Putin hasn’t actually soiled his pants yet though.
https://youtu.be/bYdq90MHWVg
LANCET
dv said:
LOLOL
Michael V said:
dv said:
LOLOL
Has anyone seen any evidence of how it’s explained in Russia?
I mean, about how Ukraine came to have a Nazi government, which is led by a Jew?
About what alterations to their ‘philosophy’ would be/were required for the Nazis to countenance a government, and an army, which include Jews, and how those changes might have been sold to the ‘faithful’ of the supposed Nazi party that purportedly now runs Ukraine?
It would, i’m sure, make for hilarious reading.
captain_spalding said:
Michael V said:
dv said:
LOLOL
Has anyone seen any evidence of how it’s explained in Russia?
I mean, about how Ukraine came to have a Nazi government, which is led by a Jew?
About what alterations to their ‘philosophy’ would be/were required for the Nazis to countenance a government, and an army, which include Jews, and how those changes might have been sold to the ‘faithful’ of the supposed Nazi party that purportedly now runs Ukraine?
It would, i’m sure, make for hilarious reading.
I mean there are some Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. For that matter there are some Nazis in the Australian armed forces, and a fucking shitton of them in the Russian armed forces.
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
Michael V said:LOLOL
Has anyone seen any evidence of how it’s explained in Russia?
I mean, about how Ukraine came to have a Nazi government, which is led by a Jew?
About what alterations to their ‘philosophy’ would be/were required for the Nazis to countenance a government, and an army, which include Jews, and how those changes might have been sold to the ‘faithful’ of the supposed Nazi party that purportedly now runs Ukraine?
It would, i’m sure, make for hilarious reading.
I mean there are some Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. For that matter there are some Nazis in the Australian armed forces, and a fucking shitton of them in the Russian armed forces.
any Illinois Nazis?
Would it be possible to outlaw Nazism?
I mean, like in the olden days, make outlaws of them. Literally outside of the law, not entitled to any of the rights and protections afforded under law, and made fair game for all and sundry, and with anyone who provides them with aid and assistance also subject to punishment?
ChrispenEvan said:
dv said:
captain_spalding said:Has anyone seen any evidence of how it’s explained in Russia?
I mean, about how Ukraine came to have a Nazi government, which is led by a Jew?
About what alterations to their ‘philosophy’ would be/were required for the Nazis to countenance a government, and an army, which include Jews, and how those changes might have been sold to the ‘faithful’ of the supposed Nazi party that purportedly now runs Ukraine?
It would, i’m sure, make for hilarious reading.
I mean there are some Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. For that matter there are some Nazis in the Australian armed forces, and a fucking shitton of them in the Russian armed forces.
any Illinois Nazis?
They’re all in the creek below the bridge.
captain_spalding said:
Would it be possible to outlaw Nazism?
Probably not
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
Would it be possible to outlaw Nazism?
Probably not
I’m pretty sure that the SS was declared by ‘the United Nations’ (i.e. the Allies) to be an ‘illegal organisation’ either during or immediately after WW2, and that meant that just having signed up for the SS meant that you were a criminal until proven otherwise. And it went particularly badly for a lot non-Germans who joined the SS (there was recruitment campaigns in occupied countries, including France and the Netherlands. Latvia alone provided sufficient willing hands to form two SS divisions).
If you could do it for a part of Nazism, why not the whole lot of it?
dv said:
captain_spalding said:
Michael V said:LOLOL
Has anyone seen any evidence of how it’s explained in Russia?
I mean, about how Ukraine came to have a Nazi government, which is led by a Jew?
About what alterations to their ‘philosophy’ would be/were required for the Nazis to countenance a government, and an army, which include Jews, and how those changes might have been sold to the ‘faithful’ of the supposed Nazi party that purportedly now runs Ukraine?
It would, i’m sure, make for hilarious reading.
I mean there are some Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. For that matter there are some Nazis in the Australian armed forces, and a fucking shitton of them in the Russian armed forces.
The FBI is changing the way they vet their current employees for Nazi activities and views. They used to interview folks once every five years, but this has not worked for them this last decade. Apparently there will be yearly or biyearly interviews but with a much more comprehensive look at their employee’s social media. There’s been too many of them being radicalised.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/14/europe/russia-aircraft-downed-ukraine-bryansk-intl/index.html
According to Russian media, Russia lost four aircraft in Ukraine in one day.
—-
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/14/asia/russian-colonels-killed-ukraine-intl-hnk/index.html
Two senior Russian military officers have been killed in eastern Ukraine, the Russian Defense Ministry said Sunday, the latest high-profile losses for Moscow in a grinding war with its western neighbor.
The ministry said the two officers – Col. Vyacheslav Makarov and Col. Yevgeny Brovko – were in killed in action while leading Russian troops in the Donetsk region. It did not specify when or exactly where they were killed.
Russian missile strike destroys 500 million dollars worth of NATO ammo in warehouse
depleted uranium tank shells destroyed – background radiation has jumped up. Mushroom cloud of radioactive smoke spreads west.
wookiemeister said:
Russian missile strike destroys 500 million dollars worth of NATO ammo in warehousedepleted uranium tank shells destroyed – background radiation has jumped up. Mushroom cloud of radioactive smoke spreads west.
Tamb said:
wookiemeister said:
Russian missile strike destroys 500 million dollars worth of NATO ammo in warehousedepleted uranium tank shells destroyed – background radiation has jumped up. Mushroom cloud of radioactive smoke spreads west.
News from 15 June 2022.
Don’t worry, I’m sure everything is fine
Tamb said:
wookiemeister said:
Russian missile strike destroys 500 million dollars worth of NATO ammo in warehousedepleted uranium tank shells destroyed – background radiation has jumped up. Mushroom cloud of radioactive smoke spreads west.
News from 15 June 2022.
Wookies copy of Russia Today got held up by the floods.
wookiemeister said:
Don’t worry, I’m sure everything is fine
Not so fine for your Russian mates lol. They just lost the territory that had taken them months to gain over the course of a few hours.
Also…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-15/prigozhin-offered-to-reveal-russian-locations-to-ukraine-report/102348268
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin reportedly offered to reveal Russian troop locations to Ukraine
Peak Warming Man said:
Tamb said:
wookiemeister said:
Russian missile strike destroys 500 million dollars worth of NATO ammo in warehousedepleted uranium tank shells destroyed – background radiation has jumped up. Mushroom cloud of radioactive smoke spreads west.
News from 15 June 2022.Wookies copy of Russia Today got held up by the floods.
There’s spectacular pictures / footage of a massive explosion
They are using robots to put the fire out.
But as I’ve said, no need to worry because our press would have told us. The russians lost 4 aircraft a few days ago. They got blasted as they flew back to base.
Everything is fine
dv said:
wookiemeister said:Don’t worry, I’m sure everything is fine
Not so fine for your Russian mates lol. They just lost the territory that had taken them months to gain over the course of a few hours.
Also…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-15/prigozhin-offered-to-reveal-russian-locations-to-ukraine-report/102348268
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin reportedly offered to reveal Russian troop locations to Ukraine
What does it matter, Australia is winning the war against Russia, the bushmasters have already stormed Russian front lines and are literally on the outskirts of Moscow.
When Australia finally commits to total war with Russia you’ll probably lose about 20 million plus. No petrol, no power, no water. No cargo ships come again.
wookiemeister said:
dv said:
wookiemeister said:Don’t worry, I’m sure everything is fine
Not so fine for your Russian mates lol. They just lost the territory that had taken them months to gain over the course of a few hours.
Also…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-15/prigozhin-offered-to-reveal-russian-locations-to-ukraine-report/102348268
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin reportedly offered to reveal Russian troop locations to Ukraine
Sounds like BS I’m afraidWhat does it matter, Australia is winning the war against Russia, the bushmasters have already stormed Russian front lines and are literally on the outskirts of Moscow.
From Al-Jazeera:
*Moscow acknowledged that its forces had fallen back north of Ukraine’s ruined eastern city of Bakhmut, in a retreat that the head of Russia’s Wagner private army called a “rout”.
*The United Kingdom’s defence ministry has suggested in its daily intelligence update that Russian forces had likely withdrawn from their positions on the southern flank of Bakhmut in bad order over the last four days.
*Ukraine forces have advanced on parts of the front line against Russian troops near the war-torn eastern town of Bakhmut. “Our soldiers are moving forward in some areas of the front, and the enemy is losing equipment and manpower,” Oleksandr Syrskyi, commander of the Ukrainian Ground Forces, said on social media on Saturday.
*Russia’s defence ministry said its forces have gained control over another city block in Bakhmut. “The units of the Airborne Forces provided support to the assault units and pinned down the enemy on the flanks,” the ministry said in a statement.
*Russia’s Defence Ministry said two of its military commanders were killed in eastern Ukraine as Kyiv’s forces renewed efforts to break through Russian defences in the embattled city of Bakhmut.
*Russian news outlet Kommersant has reported two Russian fighter jets and two military helicopters were down over Russian territory close to the Ukrainian border. Kommersant said on its website that the Su-34 fighter bomber, Su-35 fighter, and two Mi-8 helicopters, which had made up an aerial raiding party, were “shot down almost simultaneously” in an ambush in the Bryansk region of Russia.
So, the Russian forces appear to have taken a step forward, but also to have taken several steps backwards. It must be getting difficult to convince them to die for Putin’s ‘legacy’.
Tamb said:
wookiemeister said:
dv said:Not so fine for your Russian mates lol. They just lost the territory that had taken them months to gain over the course of a few hours.
Also…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-15/prigozhin-offered-to-reveal-russian-locations-to-ukraine-report/102348268
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin reportedly offered to reveal Russian troop locations to Ukraine
Sounds like BS I’m afraidWhat does it matter, Australia is winning the war against Russia, the bushmasters have already stormed Russian front lines and are literally on the outskirts of Moscow.
If history tells us anything it is that being on the outskirts of Moscow is a very bad place to be.
*****scribbles notes furiously*****
The Guardian:
UK and Netherlands agree ‘international coalition’ to help Ukraine procure F-16 jets
Rishi Sunak and Mark Rutte announced plans a day after Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Kyiv could soon receive fighter jets
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/uk-and-netherlands-agree-international-coalition-to-help-ukraine-with-f-16-jets
Defense News:
Britain to train Ukrainian pilots, supply more missiles and drones
LONDON — Britain is to start elementary flight training for Ukrainian pilots as part of a new military support package announced by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak during a face-to-face meeting in the U.K. with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday.
Sunak linked the training program to efforts by the U.K. and others to equip the Ukrainian Air Force with Lockheed Martin-made F-16 aircraft, which he called “Ukraine’s fighter jets of choice.”
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/05/15/britain-to-train-ukrainian-pilots-supply-more-missiles-and-drones/
captain_spalding said:
The Guardian:UK and Netherlands agree ‘international coalition’ to help Ukraine procure F-16 jets
Rishi Sunak and Mark Rutte announced plans a day after Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Kyiv could soon receive fighter jetshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/uk-and-netherlands-agree-international-coalition-to-help-ukraine-with-f-16-jets
Defense News:
Britain to train Ukrainian pilots, supply more missiles and drones
LONDON — Britain is to start elementary flight training for Ukrainian pilots as part of a new military support package announced by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak during a face-to-face meeting in the U.K. with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday.
Sunak linked the training program to efforts by the U.K. and others to equip the Ukrainian Air Force with Lockheed Martin-made F-16 aircraft, which he called “Ukraine’s fighter jets of choice.”
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/05/15/britain-to-train-ukrainian-pilots-supply-more-missiles-and-drones/
The US will decide if Ukraine gets F16s so far they have been reticent.
Peak Warming Man said:
captain_spalding said:
The Guardian:UK and Netherlands agree ‘international coalition’ to help Ukraine procure F-16 jets
Rishi Sunak and Mark Rutte announced plans a day after Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Kyiv could soon receive fighter jetshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/uk-and-netherlands-agree-international-coalition-to-help-ukraine-with-f-16-jets
Defense News:
Britain to train Ukrainian pilots, supply more missiles and drones
LONDON — Britain is to start elementary flight training for Ukrainian pilots as part of a new military support package announced by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak during a face-to-face meeting in the U.K. with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday.
Sunak linked the training program to efforts by the U.K. and others to equip the Ukrainian Air Force with Lockheed Martin-made F-16 aircraft, which he called “Ukraine’s fighter jets of choice.”
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/05/15/britain-to-train-ukrainian-pilots-supply-more-missiles-and-drones/
The US will decide if Ukraine gets F16s so far they have been reticent.
There’s no lock on those things, y’know.
And they have to be parked somewhere.
And it gets dark at night.
captain_spalding said:
Peak Warming Man said:
captain_spalding said:
The Guardian:UK and Netherlands agree ‘international coalition’ to help Ukraine procure F-16 jets
Rishi Sunak and Mark Rutte announced plans a day after Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Kyiv could soon receive fighter jetshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/uk-and-netherlands-agree-international-coalition-to-help-ukraine-with-f-16-jets
Defense News:
Britain to train Ukrainian pilots, supply more missiles and drones
LONDON — Britain is to start elementary flight training for Ukrainian pilots as part of a new military support package announced by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak during a face-to-face meeting in the U.K. with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday.
Sunak linked the training program to efforts by the U.K. and others to equip the Ukrainian Air Force with Lockheed Martin-made F-16 aircraft, which he called “Ukraine’s fighter jets of choice.”
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/05/15/britain-to-train-ukrainian-pilots-supply-more-missiles-and-drones/
The US will decide if Ukraine gets F16s so far they have been reticent.
There’s no lock on those things, y’know.
And they have to be parked somewhere.
And it gets dark at night.
Reminds me of the monty python skit where Luigi and his brother go into an army base to extort protection money.
Luige-: You’ve got a lot of tanks on the base General, we wouldn’t want anything to happen to them now would we.
captain_spalding said:
The Guardian:UK and Netherlands agree ‘international coalition’ to help Ukraine procure F-16 jets
Rishi Sunak and Mark Rutte announced plans a day after Volodymyr Zelenskiy said Kyiv could soon receive fighter jetshttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/uk-and-netherlands-agree-international-coalition-to-help-ukraine-with-f-16-jets
Defense News:
Britain to train Ukrainian pilots, supply more missiles and drones
LONDON — Britain is to start elementary flight training for Ukrainian pilots as part of a new military support package announced by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak during a face-to-face meeting in the U.K. with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy on Monday.
Sunak linked the training program to efforts by the U.K. and others to equip the Ukrainian Air Force with Lockheed Martin-made F-16 aircraft, which he called “Ukraine’s fighter jets of choice.”
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/05/15/britain-to-train-ukrainian-pilots-supply-more-missiles-and-drones/
That’s most unusual, as it takes the best part of a year’s training to get truly proficient in a new fighter. I rather hope that the war doesn’t go on that long.
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022
Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022
Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
captain_spalding said:
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
captain_spalding said:
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
good to see the rebuilding going so well.
captain_spalding said:
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
I think you have your tops and bottoms mixed up.
ChrispenEvan said:
captain_spalding said:
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
good to see the rebuilding going so well.
Yes the Russians have done a terrific job since they’ve been there.
Peak Warming Man said:
ChrispenEvan said:
captain_spalding said:
Top half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2022Bottom half of pic: Bakhmut, May 2023
Oh, well, at least they’re not living under the terrible oppression by the Jewish Nazis of Ukraine any more.
Right, Vlad?
good to see the rebuilding going so well.
Yes the Russians have done a terrific job since they’ve been there.
Wookie will be so proud.
(Apologies for my error.)
A day or so after UKR claimed to have shot down most of RUS’s hypersonic rockets, RUS has locked up the development scientists as spies.
Michael V said:
A day or so after UKR claimed to have shot down most of RUS’s hypersonic rockets, RUS has locked up the development scientists as spies.
Yes I read that or heard it on the wireless.
Michael V said:
A day or so after UKR claimed to have shot down most of RUS’s hypersonic rockets, RUS has locked up the development scientists as spies.
captain_spalding said:
Michael V said:
A day or so after UKR claimed to have shot down most of RUS’s hypersonic rockets, RUS has locked up the development scientists as spies.
LOL
Peak Warming Man said:
Michael V said:
A day or so after UKR claimed to have shot down most of RUS’s hypersonic rockets, RUS has locked up the development scientists as spies.
Yes I read that or heard it on the wireless.
I think that the RUS action implies that UKR is telling the truth.
Since the EU, G7 and Australia placed price caps on Russian hydrocarbons, Russian energy revenues have dropped 47%.
https://youtu.be/ys9UAHYuHaA
dv said:
Since the EU, G7 and Australia placed price caps on Russian hydrocarbons, Russian energy revenues have dropped 47%.https://youtu.be/ys9UAHYuHaA
Good work, keep it up.
CNN
—
A group of anti-Putin Russian nationals, who are aligned with the Ukrainian army, has claimed responsibility for an attack in Belgorod, as Moscow said it was fighting a group of saboteurs in the southwestern region.
In a Telegram post, groups calling themselves the “Freedom of Russia Legion” and “Russian Volunteer Corps” said they had “liberated” a settlement in the Belgorod region.
A Ukrainian official acknowledged that the units had carried out an operation in the area but insisted they were acting independently. “We can confirm that this operation was carried out by Russian citizens,” Andriy Yusov, a representative of Ukraine’s defense intelligence agency, told CNN.
—-
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/22/europe/belgorod-ukrainian-forces-russian-territory-intl/index.html
Shit eh
dv said:
CNN —
A group of anti-Putin Russian nationals, who are aligned with the Ukrainian army, has claimed responsibility for an attack in Belgorod, as Moscow said it was fighting a group of saboteurs in the southwestern region.In a Telegram post, groups calling themselves the “Freedom of Russia Legion” and “Russian Volunteer Corps” said they had “liberated” a settlement in the Belgorod region.
A Ukrainian official acknowledged that the units had carried out an operation in the area but insisted they were acting independently. “We can confirm that this operation was carried out by Russian citizens,” Andriy Yusov, a representative of Ukraine’s defense intelligence agency, told CNN.
—-
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/22/europe/belgorod-ukrainian-forces-russian-territory-intl/index.html
Shit eh
Good
captain_spalding said:
Heh!
:)
Putin has used a 17th century map to “prove” that Ukraine was purely a Soviet creation.
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/05/23/erin-burnett-monologue-map-putin-ukraine-17-century-ebof-vpx.cnn
—-
Hey since we’re going old school, why not wind back to 1500?
Prigozhin says war in Ukraine has backfired, warns of Russian revolution
By Mary Ilyushina
May 24, 2023 at 3:17 p.m. EDT
RIGA, Latvia — Fresh off his claim of victory in capturing the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut, Russian mercenary boss Yevgeniy Prigozhin warned that Moscow’s brutal war could plunge Russia into turmoil similar to the 1917 revolution unless its detached, wealthy elite become more directly committed to the conflict.
In a lengthy interview with Konstantin Dolgov, a political operative and pro-war blogger, Prigozhin, the founder and leader of the Wagner mercenary group, also asserted that the war had backfired spectacularly by failing to “demilitarize” Ukraine, one of President Vladimir Putin’s stated aims of the invasion. He also called for totalitarian policies.
“We are in a situation where we can simply lose Russia,” Prigozhin said, using an expletive to hammer his point. “We must introduce martial law. We unfortunately … must announce new waves of mobilization; we must put everyone who is capable to work on increasing the production of ammunition,” he said. “Russia needs to live like North Korea for a few years, so to say, close the borders … and work hard.”
Citing public anger at the lavish lifestyles of Russia’s rich and powerful, Prigozhin warned their homes could be stormed by people with “pitchforks.” He singled out Ksenia Shoigu, the daughter of Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, who was spotted vacationing in Dubai with her fiancé, Alexei Stolyarov, a fitness blogger.
“The children of the elite shut their traps at best, and some allow themselves a public, fat, carefree life,” Prigozhin said in the interview, which was released Wednesday on video. “This division might end as in 1917, with a revolution — when first the soldiers rise up, and then their loved ones follow.”
Prigozhin, who earned a fortune and the nickname “Putin’s chef” off government catering contracts, seized a central role in the war in Ukraine, first by deploying his mercenaries on the front lines and later by recruiting heavily from prisons to bolster Moscow’s depleted forces. In the interview, Prigozhin said that he did not know how to cook, and that journalists should have called him “Putin’s butcher.”
Wagner led the onslaught in Bakhmut, which culminated this week in Putin declaring the city under Russian control — his first significant territorial gain since last summer. Ukraine insists it is still fighting on the city’s outskirts.
But while Prigozhin’s role in Bakhmut has given him a major platform, he has been engaged in a nasty running feud with Shoigu and other Russian military commanders, accusing them of denying Wagner needed ammunition. He also repeatedly threatened to withdraw from Bakhmut.
In the interview with Dolgov, Prigozhin professed to be guided by love for his motherland and loyalty to Putin. But he also delivered blistering criticism of the war, which the Kremlin calls a “special military operation.”
Instead of demilitarization, he said, the invasion turned “Ukraine’s army into one of the most powerful in the world” and Ukrainians into “a nation known to the entire world.”
“If they, figuratively speaking, had 500 tanks at the beginning of the special operation, now they have 5,000,” he said. “If they had 20,000 fighters who knew how to fight, now they have 400,000. How did we ‘demilitarize’ it? Now it turns out that we militarized it — hell knows how.”
Prigozhin this week again said that his fighters would leave Bakhmut, potentially in a bid to leave Shoigu responsible for holding the city, which Kyiv insists it will retake.
In the interview, he had special venom for the children of the elite and for the many wealthy Russians who have tried to avoid letting their lives be disrupted by the war. Prigozhin, however, did not comment on the fact that this effort to shield Russians has been a central strategy of Putin’s since the invasion started.
Prigozhin said that the grief of “tens of thousands of relatives” of killed soldiers might reach a boiling point, and the Russian government will have to contend with broader anger and discontent, exacerbated by economic disparity.
“My advice to the Russian elites — get your lads, send them to war, and when you go to the funeral, when you start burying them, people will say that now everything is fair,” Prigozhin said in the interview.
Prigozhin’s rants often undermine Moscow’s official line and almost certainly would result in harsh punishment for anyone else. The country has outlawed criticism of the military and many citizens have faced prosecution.
While regular Russian military officials keep a lid on the number of casualties in Ukraine, Prigozhin said that 20,000 Wagner fighters had died in the battle for Bakhmut. Even if an undercount, the figure eclipses the last official number given by Moscow in September, when Shoigu claimed that 5,937 soldiers had died.
Military experts attribute such a high death toll among Wagner fighters to its commanders’ brutal tactics of sending waves of poorly trained convicts to exhaust Ukrainians, at times threatening the prisoners with death if they retreat.
Private military companies are technically illegal in Russia, but Prigozhin has operated with impunity, deploying his fighters to countries in the Middle East and Africa, and to Ukraine In Mali, Wagner soldiers are suspected of war crimes following reports of executions, torture, rape and abductions.
While Prigozhin has sought to cultivate an image of himself as a fighter, appearing in full battle gear on the front lines in countless videos, he falls squarely among the Putin cronies who have become billionaires off their government connections and contracts. Like his fighters, however, Prigozhin is also an ex-convict: He spent most of the 1980s in jail for robbery.
So far, Prigozhin remains unmatched in publicity, succeeding where some regular commanders have stumbled, in some cases in humiliating fashion.
Military experts, for example, pointed to a staged clip of Gen. Col. Alexander Lapin that emerged Tuesday, showing him commanding a small group of troops to fight off a mysterious two-day incursion in the Belgorod region, a staging area for Russian forces that borders Ukraine.
The clip, in which Lapin is seen walking alongside a convoy of armored vehicles shouting, “Go forward, guys! For the motherland,” was ridiculed by some Russian pro-war bloggers as “embarrassing” and “laughable.” Local officials, meanwhile, fought off questions from civilians alarmed about a breach in the border.
“I have even more questions for the Defense Ministry than you have,” Belgorod Gov. Vyacheslav Gladkov said in a live question-and-answer session with local residents after militias made up of Russians fighting on Ukraine’s side in the war stormed a checkpoint in Grayvoron district and infiltrated nearby villages.
Gladkov said Tuesday that one woman died while being evacuated during the attack, and eight people were injured. Russian officials claimed to repel the attacks, while the militias responsible said on Wednesday that they were still actively fighting inside Russian territory.
“We are living in a very difficult period,” Gladkov said in a separate statement. .”
The disruptions in Belgorod continued Wednesday, with multiple drones targeting a gas pipeline and residential buildings, Gladkov said.
In his interview, Prigozhin said there was an “optimistic scenario” for Russia’s war: Western support for Ukraine wears out, and China brokers a peace deal, allowing Russia to keep occupied Ukrainian lands.
“I don’t have much faith in the optimistic scenario,” he said, adding that instead Ukraine could partially succeed in a highly anticipated counteroffensive, pushing Russian troops closer to the borders that existed before hostilities began in 2014. They could also attack Crimea and continue pressing on in the east, armed with more Western weapons, he said.
“Most likely this scenario will not be good for us,” Prigozhin said. “So we need to prepare for a difficult war.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/24/yevgeniy-prigozhin-war-backfired-revolution/?
Witty Rejoinder said:
Prigozhin says war in Ukraine has backfired, warns of Russian revolutionBy Mary Ilyushina
May 24, 2023 at 3:17 p.m. EDTRIGA, Latvia — Fresh off his claim of victory in capturing the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut, Russian mercenary boss Yevgeniy Prigozhin warned that Moscow’s brutal war could plunge Russia into turmoil similar to the 1917 revolution unless its detached, wealthy elite become more directly committed to the conflict.
In a lengthy interview with Konstantin Dolgov, a political operative and pro-war blogger, Prigozhin, the founder and leader of the Wagner mercenary group, also asserted that the war had backfired spectacularly by failing to “demilitarize” Ukraine, one of President Vladimir Putin’s stated aims of the invasion. He also called for totalitarian policies.
“We are in a situation where we can simply lose Russia,” Prigozhin said, using an expletive to hammer his point. “We must introduce martial law. We unfortunately … must announce new waves of mobilization; we must put everyone who is capable to work on increasing the production of ammunition,” he said. “Russia needs to live like North Korea for a few years, so to say, close the borders … and work hard.”
Citing public anger at the lavish lifestyles of Russia’s rich and powerful, Prigozhin warned their homes could be stormed by people with “pitchforks.” He singled out Ksenia Shoigu, the daughter of Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, who was spotted vacationing in Dubai with her fiancé, Alexei Stolyarov, a fitness blogger.
“The children of the elite shut their traps at best, and some allow themselves a public, fat, carefree life,” Prigozhin said in the interview, which was released Wednesday on video. “This division might end as in 1917, with a revolution — when first the soldiers rise up, and then their loved ones follow.”
Prigozhin, who earned a fortune and the nickname “Putin’s chef” off government catering contracts, seized a central role in the war in Ukraine, first by deploying his mercenaries on the front lines and later by recruiting heavily from prisons to bolster Moscow’s depleted forces. In the interview, Prigozhin said that he did not know how to cook, and that journalists should have called him “Putin’s butcher.”
Wagner led the onslaught in Bakhmut, which culminated this week in Putin declaring the city under Russian control — his first significant territorial gain since last summer. Ukraine insists it is still fighting on the city’s outskirts.
But while Prigozhin’s role in Bakhmut has given him a major platform, he has been engaged in a nasty running feud with Shoigu and other Russian military commanders, accusing them of denying Wagner needed ammunition. He also repeatedly threatened to withdraw from Bakhmut.
In the interview with Dolgov, Prigozhin professed to be guided by love for his motherland and loyalty to Putin. But he also delivered blistering criticism of the war, which the Kremlin calls a “special military operation.”
Instead of demilitarization, he said, the invasion turned “Ukraine’s army into one of the most powerful in the world” and Ukrainians into “a nation known to the entire world.”
“If they, figuratively speaking, had 500 tanks at the beginning of the special operation, now they have 5,000,” he said. “If they had 20,000 fighters who knew how to fight, now they have 400,000. How did we ‘demilitarize’ it? Now it turns out that we militarized it — hell knows how.”
Prigozhin this week again said that his fighters would leave Bakhmut, potentially in a bid to leave Shoigu responsible for holding the city, which Kyiv insists it will retake.
In the interview, he had special venom for the children of the elite and for the many wealthy Russians who have tried to avoid letting their lives be disrupted by the war. Prigozhin, however, did not comment on the fact that this effort to shield Russians has been a central strategy of Putin’s since the invasion started.
Prigozhin said that the grief of “tens of thousands of relatives” of killed soldiers might reach a boiling point, and the Russian government will have to contend with broader anger and discontent, exacerbated by economic disparity.
“My advice to the Russian elites — get your lads, send them to war, and when you go to the funeral, when you start burying them, people will say that now everything is fair,” Prigozhin said in the interview.
Prigozhin’s rants often undermine Moscow’s official line and almost certainly would result in harsh punishment for anyone else. The country has outlawed criticism of the military and many citizens have faced prosecution.
While regular Russian military officials keep a lid on the number of casualties in Ukraine, Prigozhin said that 20,000 Wagner fighters had died in the battle for Bakhmut. Even if an undercount, the figure eclipses the last official number given by Moscow in September, when Shoigu claimed that 5,937 soldiers had died.
Military experts attribute such a high death toll among Wagner fighters to its commanders’ brutal tactics of sending waves of poorly trained convicts to exhaust Ukrainians, at times threatening the prisoners with death if they retreat.
Private military companies are technically illegal in Russia, but Prigozhin has operated with impunity, deploying his fighters to countries in the Middle East and Africa, and to Ukraine In Mali, Wagner soldiers are suspected of war crimes following reports of executions, torture, rape and abductions.
While Prigozhin has sought to cultivate an image of himself as a fighter, appearing in full battle gear on the front lines in countless videos, he falls squarely among the Putin cronies who have become billionaires off their government connections and contracts. Like his fighters, however, Prigozhin is also an ex-convict: He spent most of the 1980s in jail for robbery.
So far, Prigozhin remains unmatched in publicity, succeeding where some regular commanders have stumbled, in some cases in humiliating fashion.
Military experts, for example, pointed to a staged clip of Gen. Col. Alexander Lapin that emerged Tuesday, showing him commanding a small group of troops to fight off a mysterious two-day incursion in the Belgorod region, a staging area for Russian forces that borders Ukraine.
The clip, in which Lapin is seen walking alongside a convoy of armored vehicles shouting, “Go forward, guys! For the motherland,” was ridiculed by some Russian pro-war bloggers as “embarrassing” and “laughable.” Local officials, meanwhile, fought off questions from civilians alarmed about a breach in the border.
“I have even more questions for the Defense Ministry than you have,” Belgorod Gov. Vyacheslav Gladkov said in a live question-and-answer session with local residents after militias made up of Russians fighting on Ukraine’s side in the war stormed a checkpoint in Grayvoron district and infiltrated nearby villages.
Gladkov said Tuesday that one woman died while being evacuated during the attack, and eight people were injured. Russian officials claimed to repel the attacks, while the militias responsible said on Wednesday that they were still actively fighting inside Russian territory.
“We are living in a very difficult period,” Gladkov said in a separate statement. .”
The disruptions in Belgorod continued Wednesday, with multiple drones targeting a gas pipeline and residential buildings, Gladkov said.
In his interview, Prigozhin said there was an “optimistic scenario” for Russia’s war: Western support for Ukraine wears out, and China brokers a peace deal, allowing Russia to keep occupied Ukrainian lands.
“I don’t have much faith in the optimistic scenario,” he said, adding that instead Ukraine could partially succeed in a highly anticipated counteroffensive, pushing Russian troops closer to the borders that existed before hostilities began in 2014. They could also attack Crimea and continue pressing on in the east, armed with more Western weapons, he said.
“Most likely this scenario will not be good for us,” Prigozhin said. “So we need to prepare for a difficult war.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/24/yevgeniy-prigozhin-war-backfired-revolution/?
“If they, figuratively speaking, had 500 tanks at the beginning of the special operation, now they have 5,000,” he said. “If they had 20,000 fighters who knew how to fight, now they have 400,000. How did we ‘demilitarize’ it? Now it turns out that we militarized it — hell knows how.”
…. hell knows how.
Just replay history Prigozhin.
CNN
—
Stewart Rhodes, the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers, was sentenced to 18 years in prison on Thursday for leading a far-reaching plot to keep then-President Donald Trump in power after he lost the 2020 election.
A second Oath Keepers member, Kelly Meggs, the leader of the Florida contingent of the group, was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
The sentences are the first handed down in over a decade for seditious conspiracy.
“What we absolutely cannot have is a group of citizens who – because they did not like the outcome of an election, who did not believe the law was followed as it should be – foment revolution,” District Judge Amit Mehta said before handing down the sentence. “That is what you did.”
“I dare say, Mr. Rhodes – and I never have said this to anyone I have sentenced – you pose an ongoing threat and peril to our democracy and the fabric of this country,” Mehta said.
The judge added: “I dare say we all now hold our collective breaths when an election is approaching. Will we have another January 6 again? That remains to be seen.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/25/politics/oath-keepers-sentencing-stewart-rhodes-kelly-meggs/index.html
ChrispenEvan said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMh2e78dgDgdrone video Ivan Khurs.
Ooh, nasty. Propellors and rudders. Wouldn’t like to be filling out the insurance claim. 200kg of high-explosive going off right next to your steering gear can be expensive.
Even if it doesn’t sink, it’s going to be in the panel beaters for a very long time.
captain_spalding said:
ChrispenEvan said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMh2e78dgDgdrone video Ivan Khurs.
Ooh, nasty. Propellors and rudders. Wouldn’t like to be filling out the insurance claim. 200kg of high-explosive going off right next to your steering gear can be expensive.
Even if it doesn’t sink, it’s going to be in the panel beaters for a very long time.
:)
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:
ChrispenEvan said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMh2e78dgDgdrone video Ivan Khurs.
Ooh, nasty. Propellors and rudders. Wouldn’t like to be filling out the insurance claim. 200kg of high-explosive going off right next to your steering gear can be expensive.
Even if it doesn’t sink, it’s going to be in the panel beaters for a very long time.
:)
Looks like one shot was fired at it around 10 secs into the video
Tau.Neutrino said:
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said:Ooh, nasty. Propellors and rudders. Wouldn’t like to be filling out the insurance claim. 200kg of high-explosive going off right next to your steering gear can be expensive.
Even if it doesn’t sink, it’s going to be in the panel beaters for a very long time.
:)
Looks like one shot was fired at it around 10 secs into the video
LOL
One shot fired at it.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Michael V said::)
Looks like one shot was fired at it around 10 secs into the video
LOL
One shot fired at it.
One more or less accurate shot.
It can be hard to hit a small, fast moving target if conditions make it hard to see. There may have been other shots that went wide, or over the top.
Speaking from my own experiences with the Browning M2 .50 cal machine gun, there are no sights. Well, none that are any use once it starts shooting. The best thing to do is look for the bullet splashes (easy to see) and ‘walk’ them to the target. Again, difficult with a small and fast-moving target.
I think these ships have the 25mm 2M-3 guns. Not frightfully sophisticated, and who knows what their training and practice levels are.
I recommend threads such as this one with Subject lines that are not neutral.
dv said:
I recommend threads such as this one with Subject lines that are not neutral.
Goodo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZvHi800K3c
Amazing FPV Drone Strike on a Russian Drone (DJI Matrice 30) — Incredible Accuracy
Suchomimus
How’s morale?
dv said:
How’s morale?
Is that the Wagner ‘Top Gear’ team?
dv said:
How’s morale?
Priggy in the middle!
esselte said:
dv said:
How’s morale?
Priggy in the middle!
in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenades
it hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
wookiemeister said:
esselte said:
dv said:
How’s morale?
Priggy in the middle!
i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
I think they have been picked as they look less than effective to take the piss out of the Russian Army as the boss (center) said these two would remain to keep the Ukrainians out of the city should the Russian Army not be able to do so.
wookiemeister said:
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenadesit hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
I have home movies of similar things.
But, they only get projected on the insides of my eyelids.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenadesit hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
I have home movies of similar things.
But, they only get projected on the insides of my eyelids.
wookiemeister said:
esselte said:
dv said:
How’s morale?
Priggy in the middle!
i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
esselte said:
wookiemeister said:
esselte said:Priggy in the middle!
i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
And before that a criminal.
Tau.Neutrino said:
esselte said:
wookiemeister said:i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.
in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
And before that a criminal.
still is :p
esselte said:
wookiemeister said:
esselte said:Priggy in the middle!
i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
wookiemeister said:
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenadesit hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
Footage from both sides has been available on r/CombatFootage/ since the start of the war. Ukrainians and Russians both have been dying horribly and gleefully blowing each other up this whole time.
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
esselte said:Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
And before that a criminal.
still is :p
Yep, now a war criminal.
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
esselte said:Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
And before that a criminal.
still is :p
Witty Rejoinder said:
esselte said:
wookiemeister said:i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.
in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
Where does the UN / NATO stand with private armies like the Wagner group ?
Is Prigozhin more prosecutable than Putin ?
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
esselte said:Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
don’t blame me, its not my fault the russians have killed or injured maybe 750,000 to 1 million uko forces. if you want a piece of the action fill your boots and head over to ukraine to prove me wrong.
So you know more about the war than Prigozhin?
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
don’t blame me, its not my fault the russians have killed or injured maybe 750,000 to 1 million uko forces. if you want a piece of the action fill your boots and head over to ukraine to prove me wrong.So you know more about the war than Prigozhin?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Where does the UN / NATO stand with private armies like the Wagner group ?Is Prigozhin more prosecutable than Putin ?
I think NATO are probably fine with private armies. The US contingent any way. Blackwater did work for the CIA.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:don’t blame me, its not my fault the russians have killed or injured maybe 750,000 to 1 million uko forces. if you want a piece of the action fill your boots and head over to ukraine to prove me wrong.
So you know more about the war than Prigozhin?
all i know is a lot of men are dying
Hah. There we have it people. Wookie is the font of all knowledge about this war and knows more about it than the Russian state and military figures at the front-line. Putin will no doubt be recruiting you to win this war in the coming months.
NB: Wookie also doesn’t believe in vaccination, the moon landings, and thinks the world is flat.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:So you know more about the war than Prigozhin?
all i know is a lot of men are dyingHah. There we have it people. Wookie is the font of all knowledge about this war and knows more about it than the Russian state and military figures at the front-line. Putin will no doubt be recruiting you to win this war in the coming months.
NB: Wookie also doesn’t believe in vaccination, the moon landings, and thinks the world is flat.
and I thought cookers were the stupidest. Oh well, gotta be wrong sometimes.
wookiemeister said:
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenadesit hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
Yeah, again, Mr Wookie. It’s all about the splosions. Lots of splosions means lots of clicks. No splosions, no clicks. SImples.
Woodie said:
wookiemeister said:
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenadesit hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
Yeah, again, Mr Wookie. It’s all about the splosions. Lots of splosions means lots of clicks. No splosions, no clicks. SImples.
but i’m sure it will be fine
after all, we’ve been feeding weapons to ukarine and training their troops and giving them millions of dollars.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Where does the UN / NATO stand with private armies like the Wagner group ?Is Prigozhin more prosecutable than Putin ?
Good question. I don’t know.
I do know that long before the UN was even thought of the various great powers of the world got together and banned maritime privateers. That is, private groups of essentially pirates, to go about boarding and capturing enemy merchant ships, taking the cargo and ship back to the home country be sold for profit. Long story short, they found that after every major war the privateers, rather than retire due to the outbreak of peace, decided instead to switch to full blown piracy and attack any and all shipping whatsoever, including their oen countrymen. So got got banned by mutual agreement ages ago.
Not sure what the story is for private land armies. Nor what the rules are for “taking no prisoners” if fighting against such a force as in Ukraine.
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Where does the UN / NATO stand with private armies like the Wagner group ?Is Prigozhin more prosecutable than Putin ?
Good question. I don’t know.
I do know that long before the UN was even thought of the various great powers of the world got together and banned maritime privateers. That is, private groups of essentially pirates, to go about boarding and capturing enemy merchant ships, taking the cargo and ship back to the home country be sold for profit. Long story short, they found that after every major war the privateers, rather than retire due to the outbreak of peace, decided instead to switch to full blown piracy and attack any and all shipping whatsoever, including their oen countrymen. So got got banned by mutual agreement ages ago.
Not sure what the story is for private land armies. Nor what the rules are for “taking no prisoners” if fighting against such a force as in Ukraine.
Sorry for the lack of proof-reading. It’s my birthday and I’ll drunk if I want to.
wookiemeister said:
Woodie said:
wookiemeister said:
i was watching some footage where three uko soldiers have been targeted by a russian drone that drops grenadesit hits one of them and blows his hand off leaving a stump, nasty stuff. before the war you’d see ukrainian footage gleefully showing them blowing up men walking along – now the boot is on the other foot. another piece shows a russian drone flying directly into a hidey hole with an RPG
Yeah, again, Mr Wookie. It’s all about the splosions. Lots of splosions means lots of clicks. No splosions, no clicks. SImples.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12127333/Russia-launch-pre-emptive-nuclear-strike-West-provides-Ukraine-nukes-Moscow-warns.html you might not have to wait long woodie, all of your complaints on the internet will evaporatebut i’m sure it will be fine
after all, we’ve been feeding weapons to ukarine and training their troops and giving them millions of dollars.
This is boring. Tell us about how vaccination kills more people than it saves.
all the major capitals will go first
london
paris
washington
warsaw
rome
new york
australia probably canberra, melbourne, sydney, perth, adelaide – they might use a satan missile that will kill most people
the way you use nukes in a nuclear conflict is to make the first strike – an overwhelming strike , its true that the enemy might use his subs to lanch a strike but most likely they’ll never get the go signal – they’ve all been killed. general staff in the bunkers would then have to decide to launch the counter strike
spoiler alert: the russians have an EXTENSIVE anti ballistic missile defence system , the S500 system can shoot down ICBMs. they’ll be fine
all american capitals will be struck, tel aviv will be vaporised – theyve been party to this conflict as well.
deaths first 24 hours anything up to say 500 million. the next 1.5 billion will die of radiation poisoning.
think of everyone you ve known – all dead
the greens will be over the moon, no more using fossil fuels
wookiemeister said:
all the major capitals will go firstlondon
paris
washington
warsaw
rome
new yorkaustralia probably canberra, melbourne, sydney, perth, adelaide – they might use a satan missile that will kill most people
the way you use nukes in a nuclear conflict is to make the first strike – an overwhelming strike , its true that the enemy might use his subs to lanch a strike but most likely they’ll never get the go signal – they’ve all been killed. general staff in the bunkers would then have to decide to launch the counter strike
spoiler alert: the russians have an EXTENSIVE anti ballistic missile defence system , the S500 system can shoot down ICBMs. they’ll be fine
all american capitals will be struck, tel aviv will be vaporised – theyve been party to this conflict as well.
deaths first 24 hours anything up to say 500 million. the next 1.5 billion will die of radiation poisoning.
think of everyone you ve known – all dead
the greens will be over the moon, no more using fossil fuels
How do ICBMs navigate themselves over the flat Earth?
most adults are children, they never grew up
adults understand consequences to actions – you do this – that happens.
the first thing you’ll know about it will be a very bright light in the corner of your vision – your initial thoughts – well i suppose this is it then , then nothing more.
don’t ya just love it when stupid people keep voting in stupid governments
any child of the 1980s should understand the game plan of nuclear war
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
all the major capitals will go firstlondon
paris
washington
warsaw
rome
new yorkaustralia probably canberra, melbourne, sydney, perth, adelaide – they might use a satan missile that will kill most people
the way you use nukes in a nuclear conflict is to make the first strike – an overwhelming strike , its true that the enemy might use his subs to lanch a strike but most likely they’ll never get the go signal – they’ve all been killed. general staff in the bunkers would then have to decide to launch the counter strike
spoiler alert: the russians have an EXTENSIVE anti ballistic missile defence system , the S500 system can shoot down ICBMs. they’ll be fine
all american capitals will be struck, tel aviv will be vaporised – theyve been party to this conflict as well.
deaths first 24 hours anything up to say 500 million. the next 1.5 billion will die of radiation poisoning.
think of everyone you ve known – all dead
the greens will be over the moon, no more using fossil fuels
How do ICBMs navigate themselves over the flat Earth?
as i said , the minds of children
party_pants said:
Sorry for the lack of proof-reading. It’s my birthday and I’ll drunk if I want to.
[/quoteYa left it a bit late to tell us that, Mr Panty Parts!!
Happy birthday.🍰🍾🍾
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-28_Sarmat
The RS-28 Sarmat will be capable of carrying about 10 tonnes of payload, for either up to 10 heavy or 15 light MIRV warheads, and up to 24 Avangard hypersonic glide vehicles (HGVs) or a combination of warheads and several countermeasures against anti-ballistic missile systems. The Russian Ministry of Defense said that the missile is Russia’s response to the U.S. Prompt Global Strike system.
Sarmat has a short boost phase, which shortens the interval when it can be tracked by satellites with infrared sensors, such as the U.S. Space-Based Infrared System, making it more difficult to intercept. The Sarmat is able to fly a trajectory over the South Pole, which would require Fractional Orbital Bombardment (FOBS) capability, and is claimed to be completely immune to any current or prospective missile defense systems.
According to various sources, RS-28’s launch sites are to be equipped with the “Mozyr” active protection system, designed to negate a potential adversary’s first strike advantage by discharging a cloud of metal arrows or balls kinetically destroying incoming bombs, cruise missiles and ICBM warheads at altitudes of up to 6 km.
Witty Rejoinder said:
esselte said:
wookiemeister said:i bet they’ve seen more action in their life than any soldier in australia.
in a real war the big beefy guys get a round straight between the eyes.
if you’ve been the war memorial museum in canberra theres a small room covered in pictures of the men captured by the japanese – they don’t look like film stars. the elite army trained up by ukraine since 2014 are mostly all dead.
Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
I don’t read the diarrhea that flows from the maw of Lord Haw-Haw any more. There’s no point.
grim reading but don’t say you weren’t warned
what did you think would happen when you started fighting a large nuclear power ?
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
all the major capitals will go firstlondon
paris
washington
warsaw
rome
new yorkaustralia probably canberra, melbourne, sydney, perth, adelaide – they might use a satan missile that will kill most people
the way you use nukes in a nuclear conflict is to make the first strike – an overwhelming strike , its true that the enemy might use his subs to lanch a strike but most likely they’ll never get the go signal – they’ve all been killed. general staff in the bunkers would then have to decide to launch the counter strike
spoiler alert: the russians have an EXTENSIVE anti ballistic missile defence system , the S500 system can shoot down ICBMs. they’ll be fine
all american capitals will be struck, tel aviv will be vaporised – theyve been party to this conflict as well.
deaths first 24 hours anything up to say 500 million. the next 1.5 billion will die of radiation poisoning.
think of everyone you ve known – all dead
the greens will be over the moon, no more using fossil fuels
How do ICBMs navigate themselves over the flat Earth?
think of everyone you’ve ever met dead does that explain things better?as i said , the minds of children
dv said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
esselte said:Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
I don’t read the diarrhea that flows from the maw of Lord Haw-Haw any more. There’s no point.
i already know its like talking to a brick wall
wookiemeister said:
most adults are children, they never grew upadults understand consequences to actions – you do this – that happens.
the first thing you’ll know about it will be a very bright light in the corner of your vision – your initial thoughts – well i suppose this is it then , then nothing more.
don’t ya just love it when stupid people keep voting in stupid governments
any child of the 1980s should understand the game plan of nuclear war
Boring. Why do you think NASA faked the moon-landings? Do you think it was designed to bankrupt the Soviets who vainly attempted to land on the Moon for real? Do you think the US will again fake it again with Artemis or do we actually have the technology now?
esselte said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:How do ICBMs navigate themselves over the flat Earth?
think of everyone you’ve ever met dead does that explain things better?as i said , the minds of children
dv said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
esselte said:Prigozhin was never a soldier. He was in catering before founding Wagner Group.
Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
I don’t read the diarrhea that flows from the maw of Lord Haw-Haw any more. There’s no point.
and you can always tell when he is desperate as he goes click-happy. as if more rubbish will make him more believable.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
all the major capitals will go firstlondon
paris
washington
warsaw
rome
new yorkaustralia probably canberra, melbourne, sydney, perth, adelaide – they might use a satan missile that will kill most people
the way you use nukes in a nuclear conflict is to make the first strike – an overwhelming strike , its true that the enemy might use his subs to lanch a strike but most likely they’ll never get the go signal – they’ve all been killed. general staff in the bunkers would then have to decide to launch the counter strike
spoiler alert: the russians have an EXTENSIVE anti ballistic missile defence system , the S500 system can shoot down ICBMs. they’ll be fine
all american capitals will be struck, tel aviv will be vaporised – theyve been party to this conflict as well.
deaths first 24 hours anything up to say 500 million. the next 1.5 billion will die of radiation poisoning.
think of everyone you ve known – all dead
the greens will be over the moon, no more using fossil fuels
How do ICBMs navigate themselves over the flat Earth?
think of everyone you’ve ever met dead does that explain things better?as i said , the minds of children
Boring. Tell me how you feel up your daughter.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
most adults are children, they never grew upadults understand consequences to actions – you do this – that happens.
the first thing you’ll know about it will be a very bright light in the corner of your vision – your initial thoughts – well i suppose this is it then , then nothing more.
don’t ya just love it when stupid people keep voting in stupid governments
any child of the 1980s should understand the game plan of nuclear war
Boring. Why do you think NASA faked the moon-landings? Do you think it was designed to bankrupt the Soviets who vainly attempted to land on the Moon for real? Do you think the US will again fake it again with Artemis or do we actually have the technology now?
remember when we were in that 30 year war that no one could explain exactly why we were fighting and for what?
ChrispenEvan said:
dv said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Wookie won’t discuss Prigozhin at all. Like all Russians who bemoan Russia’s abysmal campaign, even on Russia state media, Wookie considers it fake news when it conflicts with his moronic opinions about this war.
I don’t read the diarrhea that flows from the maw of Lord Haw-Haw any more. There’s no point.
and you can always tell when he is desperate as he goes click-happy. as if more rubbish will make him more believable.
wookiemeister said:
grim reading but don’t say you weren’t warnedwhat did you think would happen when you started fighting a large nuclear power ?
Do you get aroused when you think about your children getting nuked?
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
grim reading but don’t say you weren’t warnedwhat did you think would happen when you started fighting a large nuclear power ?
Do you get aroused when you think about your children getting nuked?
i can feel it in my bones
as you get older you realise that we are literally over run by idiots
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
grim reading but don’t say you weren’t warnedwhat did you think would happen when you started fighting a large nuclear power ?
Do you get aroused when you think about your children getting nuked?
its a degradation of the mindi can feel it in my bones
as you get older you realise that we are literally over run by idiots
Do you encourage your youngest son to masturbate over footage of Ukrainian war dead with you? Does he like the taste of your cum?
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Do you get aroused when you think about your children getting nuked?
its a degradation of the mindi can feel it in my bones
as you get older you realise that we are literally over run by idiots
Do you encourage your youngest son to masturbate over footage of Ukrainian war dead with you? Does he like the taste of your cum?
I think the damage was done about 30 – 40 years ago
Hope it all works out for you Witty
Its as yuri bezmenov says they created minds to react to certain stimuli.
Will you threaten to kill me too or do do you just hurl abuse at me when I tell you nuclear war is dangerous and ukraine is losing?
wookiemeister said:
Will you threaten to kill me too or do do you just hurl abuse at me when I tell you nuclear war is dangerous and ukraine is losing?
only if you ask nicely
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:its a degradation of the mind
i can feel it in my bones
as you get older you realise that we are literally over run by idiots
Do you encourage your youngest son to masturbate over footage of Ukrainian war dead with you? Does he like the taste of your cum?
The great minds of AustraliaI think the damage was done about 30 – 40 years ago
Hope it all works out for you Witty
Its as yuri bezmenov says they created minds to react to certain stimuli.
Yeah we should all take advice from moronic, unemployable, incestuous paedophiles.
wookiemeister said:
Will you threaten to kill me too or do do you just hurl abuse at me when I tell you nuclear war is dangerous and ukraine is losing?
I’d kill you in a second. And I value human life unlike yourself.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Do you encourage your youngest son to masturbate over footage of Ukrainian war dead with you? Does he like the taste of your cum?
The great minds of AustraliaI think the damage was done about 30 – 40 years ago
Hope it all works out for you Witty
Its as yuri bezmenov says they created minds to react to certain stimuli.
Yeah we should all take advice from moronic, unemployable, incestuous paedophiles.
As I said, will you threaten to kill me when I’m telling you you are being fed lies ?
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:The great minds of Australia
I think the damage was done about 30 – 40 years ago
Hope it all works out for you Witty
Its as yuri bezmenov says they created minds to react to certain stimuli.
Yeah we should all take advice from moronic, unemployable, incestuous paedophiles.
Ahh I recognise that abuseAs I said, will you threaten to kill me when I’m telling you you are being fed lies ?
I don’t make idle threats. Next you’re down Victoria way look us up and I’ll break your neck.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Will you threaten to kill me too or do do you just hurl abuse at me when I tell you nuclear war is dangerous and ukraine is losing?
I’d kill you in a second. And I value human life unlike yourself.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Yeah we should all take advice from moronic, unemployable, incestuous paedophiles.
Ahh I recognise that abuseAs I said, will you threaten to kill me when I’m telling you you are being fed lies ?
I don’t make idle threats. Next you’re down Victoria way look us up and I’ll break your neck.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:Ahh I recognise that abuse
As I said, will you threaten to kill me when I’m telling you you are being fed lies ?
I don’t make idle threats. Next you’re down Victoria way look us up and I’ll break your neck.
I’d expect nothing less from the holiday forum
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:Ahh I recognise that abuse
As I said, will you threaten to kill me when I’m telling you you are being fed lies ?
I don’t make idle threats. Next you’re down Victoria way look us up and I’ll break your neck.
I’d expect nothing less from the holiday forum
Have you even met any forumites? I know you’ve met Moll. Meeting of the minds that one.
wookiemeister said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I don’t make idle threats. Next you’re down Victoria way look us up and I’ll break your neck.
I’d expect nothing less from the holiday forum
This is exactly the mindset that’s dug us into the hole in the first place. Vicious and stupid.
Hah. You don’t know the meaning of vicious.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I don’t make idle threats. Next you’re down Victoria way look us up and I’ll break your neck.
I’d expect nothing less from the holiday forum
Have you even met any forumites? I know you’ve met Moll. Meeting of the minds that one.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
wookiemeister said:I’d expect nothing less from the holiday forum
This is exactly the mindset that’s dug us into the hole in the first place. Vicious and stupid.Hah. You don’t know the meaning of vicious.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:I’d expect nothing less from the holiday forum
Have you even met any forumites? I know you’ve met Moll. Meeting of the minds that one.
Actually moll is a lot smarter than you think, he’s probably genius level. I’ve met these guys before they have a great knowledge and understanding on certain subjects
Moll is an idiot savant with a plus on the idiot.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Have you even met any forumites? I know you’ve met Moll. Meeting of the minds that one.
Actually moll is a lot smarter than you think, he’s probably genius level. I’ve met these guys before they have a great knowledge and understanding on certain subjects
Moll is an idiot savant with a plus on the idiot.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Have you even met any forumites? I know you’ve met Moll. Meeting of the minds that one.
Actually moll is a lot smarter than you think, he’s probably genius level. I’ve met these guys before they have a great knowledge and understanding on certain subjects
Moll is an idiot savant with a plus on the idiot.
I’ve met Moll.
DO i believe has met wookie.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:This is exactly the mindset that’s dug us into the hole in the first place. Vicious and stupid.
Hah. You don’t know the meaning of vicious.
Elaborate
Well for one you seem very happy to rejoice in the deaths of tens of thousands of both Ukrainians and Russians. Scum like you need to be put in your place. Imagine following you into a public bathroom. Hitting your head into the tiles and make a splash of water to show you slipped. Dead. Done.
ChrispenEvan said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:Actually moll is a lot smarter than you think, he’s probably genius level. I’ve met these guys before they have a great knowledge and understanding on certain subjects
Moll is an idiot savant with a plus on the idiot.
I’ve met Moll.
DO i believe has met wookie.
Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Moll is an idiot savant with a plus on the idiot.
I’ve met Moll.
DO i believe has met wookie.
Yeah years ago. He’d probably like to kill me too, once I started pointing out we are being lied to, these great wars we get involved in are lies he got angry too.Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
You’re complaining about people getting angry with you but expect no pushback when you threaten to kill hundreds of millions? This is the fucking incredulous disconnect in your feeble brain.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Hah. You don’t know the meaning of vicious.
Elaborate
Well for one you seem very happy to rejoice in the deaths of tens of thousands of both Ukrainians and Russians. Scum like you need to be put in your place. Imagine following you into a public bathroom. Hitting your head into the tiles and make a splash of water to show you slipped. Dead. Done.
Scum like me point out that provoking nuclear war, sending weapons into another conflict is more stupid I’m afraid. Then you’ve got the nazi problem in ukraine.
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Moll is an idiot savant with a plus on the idiot.
I’ve met Moll.
DO i believe has met wookie.
Yeah years ago. He’d probably like to kill me too, once I started pointing out we are being lied to, these great wars we get involved in are lies he got angry too.Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
I don’t think they get angry because they disagree with you, it is more that you totally disregard the facts.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:Elaborate
Well for one you seem very happy to rejoice in the deaths of tens of thousands of both Ukrainians and Russians. Scum like you need to be put in your place. Imagine following you into a public bathroom. Hitting your head into the tiles and make a splash of water to show you slipped. Dead. Done.
Absolutely not. We’ve been at war, propping up wars for the last 30 years. Now we are pumping more money into weapons my epiphany was a few years back , the wars have to end.Scum like me point out that provoking nuclear war, sending weapons into another conflict is more stupid I’m afraid. Then you’ve got the nazi problem in ukraine.
You want Russia to start a nuclear war. Simple. You are a warmonger and an evil cunt.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:I’ve met Moll.
DO i believe has met wookie.
Yeah years ago. He’d probably like to kill me too, once I started pointing out we are being lied to, these great wars we get involved in are lies he got angry too.Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
You’re complaining about people getting angry with you but expect no pushback when you threaten to kill hundreds of millions? This is the fucking incredulous disconnect in your feeble brain.
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
ChrispenEvan said:I’ve met Moll.
DO i believe has met wookie.
Yeah years ago. He’d probably like to kill me too, once I started pointing out we are being lied to, these great wars we get involved in are lies he got angry too.Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
I don’t think they get angry because they disagree with you, it is more that you totally disregard the facts.
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Well for one you seem very happy to rejoice in the deaths of tens of thousands of both Ukrainians and Russians. Scum like you need to be put in your place. Imagine following you into a public bathroom. Hitting your head into the tiles and make a splash of water to show you slipped. Dead. Done.
Absolutely not. We’ve been at war, propping up wars for the last 30 years. Now we are pumping more money into weapons my epiphany was a few years back , the wars have to end.Scum like me point out that provoking nuclear war, sending weapons into another conflict is more stupid I’m afraid. Then you’ve got the nazi problem in ukraine.
You want Russia to start a nuclear war. Simple. You are a warmonger and an evil cunt.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:Yeah years ago. He’d probably like to kill me too, once I started pointing out we are being lied to, these great wars we get involved in are lies he got angry too.
Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
You’re complaining about people getting angry with you but expect no pushback when you threaten to kill hundreds of millions? This is the fucking incredulous disconnect in your feeble brain.
No I’m telling people reality. You want to fight Russia, get ready for millions of casualties. You want a nuclear war – it won’t go your way. Instead of threatening to kill me, why not go and fight for the glory of ukraine – I’d bet they’d love to see you.
No cos killing you would be fun. Killing poor hapless Russians is the sad duty of Ukrainians forced to fight for Putin’s blood-thirsty ideology.
Anyway , there’s nothing I can do about it. This ball will just have to keep rolling
In a week’s time another few thousand will be dead and injured
wookiemeister said:
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:Yeah years ago. He’d probably like to kill me too, once I started pointing out we are being lied to, these great wars we get involved in are lies he got angry too.
Ive noticed this over the years people get angry when you don’t agree with you, you don’t like a brand of biscuit they like – they want to kill you. They don’t even know they think like that.
I don’t think they get angry because they disagree with you, it is more that you totally disregard the facts.
Are you mad ? The russians are putting more tanks into the tanks every day and over running the front lines daily?
I cannot believe any sane person would share your distorted outlook, which suggests to me you are either crazy or a troll. I tend to favour the latter.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:Absolutely not. We’ve been at war, propping up wars for the last 30 years. Now we are pumping more money into weapons my epiphany was a few years back , the wars have to end.
Scum like me point out that provoking nuclear war, sending weapons into another conflict is more stupid I’m afraid. Then you’ve got the nazi problem in ukraine.
You want Russia to start a nuclear war. Simple. You are a warmonger and an evil cunt.
No bubbles I’m exposing you to reality. Stop propping up this war.
Are you one in a hundred, thousand, million? How many people need to disagree with you before you realise you are insane. It’s simple. Do you think Russia should Kyiv?
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:You want Russia to start a nuclear war. Simple. You are a warmonger and an evil cunt.
No bubbles I’m exposing you to reality. Stop propping up this war.
Are you one in a hundred, thousand, million? How many people need to disagree with you before you realise you are insane. It’s simple. Do you think Russia should Kyiv?
nuke Kyiv?
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:
PermeateFree said:I don’t think they get angry because they disagree with you, it is more that you totally disregard the facts.
Are you mad ? The russians are putting more tanks into the tanks every day and over running the front lines daily?I cannot believe any sane person would share your distorted outlook, which suggests to me you are either crazy or a troll. I tend to favour the latter.
Anyway good luck
Witty Rejoinder said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
wookiemeister said:No bubbles I’m exposing you to reality. Stop propping up this war.
Are you one in a hundred, thousand, million? How many people need to disagree with you before you realise you are insane. It’s simple. Do you think Russia should Kyiv?
nuke Kyiv?
Nuclear , chemical, biological warfare
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Are you one in a hundred, thousand, million? How many people need to disagree with you before you realise you are insane. It’s simple. Do you think Russia should Kyiv?
nuke Kyiv?
The russians will only do this is provokedNuclear , chemical, biological warfare
You’re not answering the question. Should Putin use nukes on Ukrainian soil?
wookiemeister said:
PermeateFree said:
wookiemeister said:Are you mad ? The russians are putting more tanks into the tanks every day and over running the front lines daily?
I cannot believe any sane person would share your distorted outlook, which suggests to me you are either crazy or a troll. I tend to favour the latter.
The russians blew up hundreds of millions of ammo last week ( and this week too). People don’t get it – Russian forces move forwards every day. Thousands of shells daily and they’ve got millions in reserve.Anyway good luck
I think you are just trying to get under people’s skin, which whatever way you look at it, you are just scum.
wookiemeister said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Are you one in a hundred, thousand, million? How many people need to disagree with you before you realise you are insane. It’s simple. Do you think Russia should Kyiv?
nuke Kyiv?
The russians will only do this is provokedNuclear , chemical, biological warfare
полная и несусветная чушь
This is not how any nuclear power operates.
party_pants said:
party_pants said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Where does the UN / NATO stand with private armies like the Wagner group ?Is Prigozhin more prosecutable than Putin ?
Good question. I don’t know.
I do know that long before the UN was even thought of the various great powers of the world got together and banned maritime privateers. That is, private groups of essentially pirates, to go about boarding and capturing enemy merchant ships, taking the cargo and ship back to the home country be sold for profit. Long story short, they found that after every major war the privateers, rather than retire due to the outbreak of peace, decided instead to switch to full blown piracy and attack any and all shipping whatsoever, including their oen countrymen. So got got banned by mutual agreement ages ago.
Not sure what the story is for private land armies. Nor what the rules are for “taking no prisoners” if fighting against such a force as in Ukraine.
Sorry for the lack of proof-reading. It’s my birthday and I’ll drunk if I want to.
Cheers and many more years.
dv said:
He cant see himself in the irony mirror.
Spanish soldiers pay respect when Ukrainian soldiers leave after training
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/adPejRj_460svav1.mp4
Those Spanish soldiers with the green berets are the Grupos de Operaciones Especiales.
There’s only about 900 of them.
The Ukrainians will now have some rather startling surprises up their sleeves for the Russians.
captain_spalding said:
The Ukrainians will now have some rather startling surprises up their sleeves for the Russians.
well, they certainly won’t be expecting the spanish inquisition!
captain_spalding said:
Spanish soldiers pay respect when Ukrainian soldiers leave after traininghttps://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/adPejRj_460svav1.mp4
Those Spanish soldiers with the green berets are the Grupos de Operaciones Especiales.
There’s only about 900 of them.
The Ukrainians will now have some rather startling surprises up their sleeves for the Russians.
Good!
They will envy the dead.
ChrispenEvan said:
captain_spalding said:The Ukrainians will now have some rather startling surprises up their sleeves for the Russians.
well, they certainly won’t be expecting the spanish inquisition!
Pay that one.
dv said:
I really do hope that whatever disease that is eating brain, hurries up and finishes him off.
Poland will put a number of entities affiliated with the Minsk regime on the sanctions list following the upholding of the verdict in the case of the oppositionist Andrzej Poczobut. The country will also close its Belarus border to freight vehicles registered in Belarus and Russia until further notice.
“In connection with the upholding of the verdict in the case of Andrzej Poczobut, on Monday I will announce the decision to put several hundred representatives of the Lukashenka regime on the sanctions list,” Poland’s Interior Minister Mariusz Kamiński announced on Friday.
