Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme (view the livestream here)
Sharing your story until 23rd Feb 2023 (Think of anyone who might not have Internet access?)
Fresh evidence to the royal commission shows how departments actively avoided legal precedents to keep robo-debt running for years. By Rick Morton. ‘Pandora’s box’: Real conspiracy behind robo-debt
Third link is not working. Article in The Saturday Paper by Rick Morton
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2023/01/28/pandoras-box-real-conspiracy-behind-robo-debt
Imagine an algorithm trying to run government.
Imagine the errors.
1064
Tau.Neutrino said:
Imagine an algorithm trying to run government.
Imagine the errors.
1064
so you think human brains are metaphysical
ms spock said:
Third link is not working. Article in The Saturday Paper by Rick Mortonhttps://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2023/01/28/pandoras-box-real-conspiracy-behind-robo-debt
That link still doesn’t work, ms. Try this link
ms spock said:
Third link is not working. Article in The Saturday Paper by Rick Mortonhttps://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2023/01/28/pandoras-box-real-conspiracy-behind-robo-debt
for some reason you had example.com in the url which stops the link working. this has happened before with some of your links. plus the actual url was wrong.
ChrispenEvan said:
ms spock said:
Third link is not working. Article in The Saturday Paper by Rick Mortonhttps://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2023/01/28/pandoras-box-real-conspiracy-behind-robo-debt
for some reason you had example.com in the url which stops the link working. this has happened before with some of your links. plus the actual url was wrong.
Often, the copying of the link also copies part of a local script. I note sometimes a youtube link I copy will have AU and a return space as part of the link. For people in Australia, that’s OK. Others find it difficult.
“The key players – Alan Tudge, Christian Porter and former DHS chief counsel Annette Musolino – will give evidence next week.”
And they will lie, prevaricate, obfuscate and deny from go to whoa.
captain_spalding said:
“The key players – Alan Tudge, Christian Porter and former DHS chief counsel Annette Musolino – will give evidence next week.”And they will lie, prevaricate, obfuscate and deny from go to whoa.
The longer it goes on, the more money involved.
Ian said:
snigger
https://twitter.com/strangerous10/status/1616191630364803073
One of the woman testifying it’s a bit sad. So if you are having a down day don’t watch it.
So sorry about all the link mistakes and for Chrispen for putting the right link in. I am pretty sick so I am not on top of things at the moment.
When it was four deaths and pink batts the media coverage was so huge.
I can’t for the life of me understand why this isn’t getting the national attention it deserves?
ms spock said:
When it was four deaths and pink batts the media coverage was so huge.
I can’t for the life of me understand why this isn’t getting the national attention it deserves?
Because the pink batts thing was a Labor thing.
The robodebt crimes are a L/NP thing.
Even though certain persons may no longer be the poster boy(s) of the conservative-biased Australian media, there’s still a strong preference among media owners and directors for L/NP government.
So, any chance to bash a Labor initiative gets headlines ad infinitum. Any evils by the L/NP are given much more muted coverage.
And, despite their claims of and pleas for independence of political influence, senior public servants such as have been appearing before the inquiry are also a little more comfortable with L/NP governments, and aren’t going to use any influence to enhance publicity of such things. The opposite, if anything.
ms spock said:
When it was four deaths and pink batts the media coverage was so huge.
I can’t for the life of me understand why this isn’t getting the national attention it deserves?
me too.
and the answer seems to be Murdoch.
Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt. He is one of the upcoming people to say his piece. He is going to zoom from the humpy. Since he got informed of his robo debt he has had multiple anxiety and depression type problems and a heart attack.
But he is also being pursued by the local council and they are talking about demolishing his humpy. So there is a chance he will be living in his car soon. that will help.
sarahs mum said:
But he is also being pursued by the local council and they are talking about demolishing his humpy. So there is a chance he will be living in his car soon. that will help.
It will encourage him to be self-motivated, and to get out there and find a niche for a start-up business that he can, through hard work and dedication to market principles, build into a mighty enterprise, and the spirit of Margaret Thatcher will beam from on high. Although she was more usually drunk than high.
Robert Hurman being compelled to show what a half-wit he is.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1619177613389611009
It’s pieces of shit like Hurman who are the real problems in the administration and application of government.
Confident that they can curry favour with people who are father up the ladder, they willingly go along with half-arsed ideas based on whatever political/social dogma seems to hold sway at the time (and the more reactionary, the more ready they are to listen), and they’re equally confident that they can shuffle off responsibility for any of their blunders that are detected onto underlings who were probably the very people who tried to warn them that it would blow up in their faces.
Occasions like this, where people at these levels can see that they really might have to literally answer for their underhanded toadying, are, unfortunately, too infrequent to bring about a real change in the culture.
captain_spalding said:
Robert Hurman being compelled to show what a half-wit he is.https://twitter.com/i/status/1619177613389611009
It’s pieces of shit like Hurman who are the real problems in the administration and application of government.
Confident that they can curry favour with people who are father up the ladder, they willingly go along with half-arsed ideas based on whatever political/social dogma seems to hold sway at the time (and the more reactionary, the more ready they are to listen), and they’re equally confident that they can shuffle off responsibility for any of their blunders that are detected onto underlings who were probably the very people who tried to warn them that it would blow up in their faces.
Occasions like this, where people at these levels can see that they really might have to literally answer for their underhanded toadying, are, unfortunately, too infrequent to bring about a real change in the culture.
:(
Look at what they did to Witness K and Bernard Collaery. I wish Alexander Downer could be called to account!
I wish a whole lot of people could be called to account.
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:When it was four deaths and pink batts the media coverage was so huge.
I can’t for the life of me understand why this isn’t getting the national attention it deserves?
me too.
and the answer seems to be Murdoch.
Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt. He is one of the upcoming people to say his piece. He is going to zoom from the humpy. Since he got informed of his robo debt he has had multiple anxiety and depression type problems and a heart attack.
But he is also being pursued by the local council and they are talking about demolishing his humpy. So there is a chance he will be living in his car soon. that will help.
Poor Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt? Egads how is that even possible? I know the incompetency and the cruelty and another bit of government that could be privatised.
Yes homelessness really boosts your general morale, helps both your physical and mental health as well.
Can he apply for crisis housing? With his depression, anxiety and heart attack he could possibly be eligible for emergency housing if the governments hadn’t sold so much of it off. He’s probably too tired and exhausted, combined with the anxiety and depression I imagine getting through the moment is hard neough nevertheless trying to deal with another government department that could potentially also be stressful to deal with. He really needs a disability advocate that can take over and fight for him.
:((((
When he is on, and if you happen to get a chance and remember. I would like to watch him. It is important to hear everyone’s stories.
sarahs mum said:
Brilliant!
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:When it was four deaths and pink batts the media coverage was so huge.
I can’t for the life of me understand why this isn’t getting the national attention it deserves?
me too.
and the answer seems to be Murdoch.
Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt. He is one of the upcoming people to say his piece. He is going to zoom from the humpy. Since he got informed of his robo debt he has had multiple anxiety and depression type problems and a heart attack.
But he is also being pursued by the local council and they are talking about demolishing his humpy. So there is a chance he will be living in his car soon. that will help.
Poor Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt? Egads how is that even possible? I know the incompetency and the cruelty and another bit of government that could be privatised.
Yes homelessness really boosts your general morale, helps both your physical and mental health as well.
Can he apply for crisis housing? With his depression, anxiety and heart attack he could possibly be eligible for emergency housing if the governments hadn’t sold so much of it off. He’s probably too tired and exhausted, combined with the anxiety and depression I imagine getting through the moment is hard neough nevertheless trying to deal with another government department that could potentially also be stressful to deal with. He really needs a disability advocate that can take over and fight for him.
:((((
When he is on, and if you happen to get a chance and remember. I would like to watch him. It is important to hear everyone’s stories.
He has a good team of health professionals. But as i tried to explain to him the council have the law behind them…however unfair that seems. And they are going for costs too so he might end up losing his little block.
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:me too.
and the answer seems to be Murdoch.
Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt. He is one of the upcoming people to say his piece. He is going to zoom from the humpy. Since he got informed of his robo debt he has had multiple anxiety and depression type problems and a heart attack.
But he is also being pursued by the local council and they are talking about demolishing his humpy. So there is a chance he will be living in his car soon. that will help.
Poor Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt? Egads how is that even possible? I know the incompetency and the cruelty and another bit of government that could be privatised.
Yes homelessness really boosts your general morale, helps both your physical and mental health as well.
Can he apply for crisis housing? With his depression, anxiety and heart attack he could possibly be eligible for emergency housing if the governments hadn’t sold so much of it off. He’s probably too tired and exhausted, combined with the anxiety and depression I imagine getting through the moment is hard neough nevertheless trying to deal with another government department that could potentially also be stressful to deal with. He really needs a disability advocate that can take over and fight for him.
:((((
When he is on, and if you happen to get a chance and remember. I would like to watch him. It is important to hear everyone’s stories.
He has a good team of health professionals. But as i tried to explain to him the council have the law behind them…however unfair that seems. And they are going for costs too so he might end up losing his little block.
Oh noooooooooooooooooo
That is so unjust and unfair. I am really concerned and sad to read that.
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:Poor Matt number one is still being pursued for a Robodebt? Egads how is that even possible? I know the incompetency and the cruelty and another bit of government that could be privatised.
Yes homelessness really boosts your general morale, helps both your physical and mental health as well.
Can he apply for crisis housing? With his depression, anxiety and heart attack he could possibly be eligible for emergency housing if the governments hadn’t sold so much of it off. He’s probably too tired and exhausted, combined with the anxiety and depression I imagine getting through the moment is hard neough nevertheless trying to deal with another government department that could potentially also be stressful to deal with. He really needs a disability advocate that can take over and fight for him.
:((((
When he is on, and if you happen to get a chance and remember. I would like to watch him. It is important to hear everyone’s stories.
He has a good team of health professionals. But as i tried to explain to him the council have the law behind them…however unfair that seems. And they are going for costs too so he might end up losing his little block.
Oh noooooooooooooooooo
That is so unjust and unfair. I am really concerned and sad to read that.
i wish there was something i could do about it. His humpy is in essence just a temporary dwelling. He does plan to build. He does have plans with council. He is waiting on fire report. One of my other friends waited nearly two years for one of those and she was pushy and works in the building industry.
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:He has a good team of health professionals. But as i tried to explain to him the council have the law behind them…however unfair that seems. And they are going for costs too so he might end up losing his little block.
Oh noooooooooooooooooo
That is so unjust and unfair. I am really concerned and sad to read that.
i wish there was something i could do about it. His humpy is in essence just a temporary dwelling. He does plan to build. He does have plans with council. He is waiting on fire report. One of my other friends waited nearly two years for one of those and she was pushy and works in the building industry.
I am so glad that Matt 1 has your support. I am sure that means alot.
So none of the team of professionals could intervene for him? He couldn’t get a disability advocate? I got one for one of my people and they couldn’t deal with the complexitiy of the case but did put us on to someone good. I know it’s a lot of effort for someone so stressed and traumatised from life though. It would be hard to trust other people after the Robotdebt experience.
Why does everyone assume that I know what “robodebt” is?
I hear the word very frequently. An explanation of the what, how and why – never.
SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Imagine an algorithm trying to run government.
Imagine the errors.
1064
so you think human brains are metaphysical
“An algorithm trying to run government.”
Very interesting thought.
An algorithm replacing politicians doesn’t seem so difficult. All you need is an algorithm that allocates finance, and anyone could write that, and an algorithm that placates irate people – and that’s what secretaries are for.
An algorithm replacing the whole of government. Wouldn’t be all that much more difficult than algorithms that run space telescopes – dealing with emergencies, handling conflicting claims for time and money, putting people in need of help in touch with people who can help them, negotiating contracts, recovery from failure.
mollwollfumble said:
Why does everyone assume that I know what “robodebt” is?
I hear the word very frequently. An explanation of the what, how and why – never.SCIENCE said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Imagine an algorithm trying to run government.
Imagine the errors.
1064
so you think human brains are metaphysical
“An algorithm trying to run government.”
Very interesting thought.
An algorithm replacing politicians doesn’t seem so difficult. All you need is an algorithm that allocates finance, and anyone could write that, and an algorithm that placates irate people – and that’s what secretaries are for.An algorithm replacing the whole of government. Wouldn’t be all that much more difficult than algorithms that run space telescopes – dealing with emergencies, handling conflicting claims for time and money, putting people in need of help in touch with people who can help them, negotiating contracts, recovery from failure.
The trouble is, people tend to treat computers like they never make mistakes, but they frequently do.
It’s a very widespread problem.
The Rev Dodgson said:
mollwollfumble said:
Why does everyone assume that I know what “robodebt” is?
I hear the word very frequently. An explanation of the what, how and why – never.SCIENCE said:
so you think human brains are metaphysical
“An algorithm trying to run government.”
Very interesting thought.
An algorithm replacing politicians doesn’t seem so difficult. All you need is an algorithm that allocates finance, and anyone could write that, and an algorithm that placates irate people – and that’s what secretaries are for.An algorithm replacing the whole of government. Wouldn’t be all that much more difficult than algorithms that run space telescopes – dealing with emergencies, handling conflicting claims for time and money, putting people in need of help in touch with people who can help them, negotiating contracts, recovery from failure.
The trouble is, people tend to treat computers like they never make mistakes, but they frequently do.
It’s a very widespread problem.
It can be demoralising! I was assisting someone who was illiterate and Centrelink tried to tell me that they have forged some papers, and I had quite the conversation about “Wow! When did they learn to read and write again after the Acquired Brain Injury!” It took a group of us to manage Centrelink for that person, and they would have fallen through the net and become homeless if folks who had a but of nouse hadn’t helped out. That poor woman yesterday who thought of driving into a tree to make it stop with Centrelink! O I feel angry!
ms spock said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
mollwollfumble said:
Why does everyone assume that I know what “robodebt” is?
I hear the word very frequently. An explanation of the what, how and why – never.“An algorithm trying to run government.”
Very interesting thought.
An algorithm replacing politicians doesn’t seem so difficult. All you need is an algorithm that allocates finance, and anyone could write that, and an algorithm that placates irate people – and that’s what secretaries are for.An algorithm replacing the whole of government. Wouldn’t be all that much more difficult than algorithms that run space telescopes – dealing with emergencies, handling conflicting claims for time and money, putting people in need of help in touch with people who can help them, negotiating contracts, recovery from failure.
The trouble is, people tend to treat computers like they never make mistakes, but they frequently do.
It’s a very widespread problem.
It can be demoralising! I was assisting someone who was illiterate and Centrelink tried to tell me that they have forged some papers, and I had quite the conversation about “Wow! When did they learn to read and write again after the Acquired Brain Injury!” It took a group of us to manage Centrelink for that person, and they would have fallen through the net and become homeless if folks who had a but of nouse hadn’t helped out. That poor woman yesterday who thought of driving into a tree to make it stop with Centrelink! O I feel angry!
Tamb said:
ms spock said:
The Rev Dodgson said:The trouble is, people tend to treat computers like they never make mistakes, but they frequently do.
It’s a very widespread problem.
It can be demoralising! I was assisting someone who was illiterate and Centrelink tried to tell me that they have forged some papers, and I had quite the conversation about “Wow! When did they learn to read and write again after the Acquired Brain Injury!” It took a group of us to manage Centrelink for that person, and they would have fallen through the net and become homeless if folks who had a but of nouse hadn’t helped out. That poor woman yesterday who thought of driving into a tree to make it stop with Centrelink! O I feel angry!
A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.
Oh I do feel for your Tamb! It is so exhausting to deal with Centrelink! You family member was so lucky to have you to support them as they were very dyslexic. The Centrelink correspondance can be very stressful particularly for those who can’t read.
I am admiring you though Tamb, if you were able to get Centrelink to accept she was disabled in months! Like Wow! I have never been able to assist that quickly! So kudos to you!
I can’t do it anymore. I just find it too overwhelming. The sheer mind numbing stupidity and the waste of resources which could be used to rehabilitate people or improve their quality of life instead.
ms spock said:
Tamb said:
ms spock said:It can be demoralising! I was assisting someone who was illiterate and Centrelink tried to tell me that they have forged some papers, and I had quite the conversation about “Wow! When did they learn to read and write again after the Acquired Brain Injury!” It took a group of us to manage Centrelink for that person, and they would have fallen through the net and become homeless if folks who had a but of nouse hadn’t helped out. That poor woman yesterday who thought of driving into a tree to make it stop with Centrelink! O I feel angry!
A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.Oh I do feel for your Tamb! It is so exhausting to deal with Centrelink! You family member was so lucky to have you to support them as they were very dyslexic. The Centrelink correspondance can be very stressful particularly for those who can’t read.
I am admiring you though Tamb, if you were able to get Centrelink to accept she was disabled in months! Like Wow! I have never been able to assist that quickly! So kudos to you!
I can’t do it anymore. I just find it too overwhelming. The sheer mind numbing stupidity and the waste of resources which could be used to rehabilitate people or improve their quality of life instead.
I was an unwilling participant of robodebt. My debt was small compared to some but having to fork out money when one doesn’t have it to give, can put life backwards.
Tamb said:
ms spock said:
Tamb said:A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.Oh I do feel for your Tamb! It is so exhausting to deal with Centrelink! You family member was so lucky to have you to support them as they were very dyslexic. The Centrelink correspondance can be very stressful particularly for those who can’t read.
I am admiring you though Tamb, if you were able to get Centrelink to accept she was disabled in months! Like Wow! I have never been able to assist that quickly! So kudos to you!
I can’t do it anymore. I just find it too overwhelming. The sheer mind numbing stupidity and the waste of resources which could be used to rehabilitate people or improve their quality of life instead.
They’d had dealings with me previously when my Mum died.
Somehow the paperwork became muddled & they kept sending letters & forms to her. I got fed up with it & took to writing in large texta “She’s still dead” A few of those & they gave up.
Slightly different but the electoral commission wanted me to pay the fine for my mother not voting. I said she was acually dying at the time so she couldn’t lift a pencil or any of that. I said surely you can’t fine a dead person. Eventally they went away empty handed.
Tamb said:
ms spock said:
The Rev Dodgson said:The trouble is, people tend to treat computers like they never make mistakes, but they frequently do.
It’s a very widespread problem.
It can be demoralising! I was assisting someone who was illiterate and Centrelink tried to tell me that they have forged some papers, and I had quite the conversation about “Wow! When did they learn to read and write again after the Acquired Brain Injury!” It took a group of us to manage Centrelink for that person, and they would have fallen through the net and become homeless if folks who had a but of nouse hadn’t helped out. That poor woman yesterday who thought of driving into a tree to make it stop with Centrelink! O I feel angry!
A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.
when I have had some problem with centrelink I have emailed Hank Jongen’s. Amazing how quickly they ring you back and fix things.
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:
ms spock said:Oh I do feel for your Tamb! It is so exhausting to deal with Centrelink! You family member was so lucky to have you to support them as they were very dyslexic. The Centrelink correspondance can be very stressful particularly for those who can’t read.
I am admiring you though Tamb, if you were able to get Centrelink to accept she was disabled in months! Like Wow! I have never been able to assist that quickly! So kudos to you!
I can’t do it anymore. I just find it too overwhelming. The sheer mind numbing stupidity and the waste of resources which could be used to rehabilitate people or improve their quality of life instead.
They’d had dealings with me previously when my Mum died.
Somehow the paperwork became muddled & they kept sending letters & forms to her. I got fed up with it & took to writing in large texta “She’s still dead” A few of those & they gave up.Slightly different but the electoral commission wanted me to pay the fine for my mother not voting. I said she was acually dying at the time so she couldn’t lift a pencil or any of that. I said surely you can’t fine a dead person. Eventally they went away empty handed.
Tamb said:
ms spock said:
Tamb said:A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.Oh I do feel for your Tamb! It is so exhausting to deal with Centrelink! You family member was so lucky to have you to support them as they were very dyslexic. The Centrelink correspondance can be very stressful particularly for those who can’t read.
I am admiring you though Tamb, if you were able to get Centrelink to accept she was disabled in months! Like Wow! I have never been able to assist that quickly! So kudos to you!
I can’t do it anymore. I just find it too overwhelming. The sheer mind numbing stupidity and the waste of resources which could be used to rehabilitate people or improve their quality of life instead.
They’d had dealings with me previously when my Mum died.
Somehow the paperwork became muddled & they kept sending letters & forms to her. I got fed up with it & took to writing in large texta “She’s still dead” A few of those & they gave up.
LMAO! That is a wonderful approach Tamb!
I actually think that happens more than occasionally because I have met other people who said that they also scrawled that the person was still dead out on letters with a Return to Sender!
In insensitivity of it is appalling.
roughbarked said:
I was an unwilling participant of robodebt. My debt was small compared to some but having to fork out money when one doesn’t have it to give, can put life backwards.
It sure can roughbarked. Did you get your money back?
ChrispenEvan said:
Tamb said:
ms spock said:It can be demoralising! I was assisting someone who was illiterate and Centrelink tried to tell me that they have forged some papers, and I had quite the conversation about “Wow! When did they learn to read and write again after the Acquired Brain Injury!” It took a group of us to manage Centrelink for that person, and they would have fallen through the net and become homeless if folks who had a but of nouse hadn’t helped out. That poor woman yesterday who thought of driving into a tree to make it stop with Centrelink! O I feel angry!
A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.when I have had some problem with centrelink I have emailed Hank Jongen’s. Amazing how quickly they ring you back and fix things.
I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:They’d had dealings with me previously when my Mum died.
Somehow the paperwork became muddled & they kept sending letters & forms to her. I got fed up with it & took to writing in large texta “She’s still dead” A few of those & they gave up.Slightly different but the electoral commission wanted me to pay the fine for my mother not voting. I said she was acually dying at the time so she couldn’t lift a pencil or any of that. I said surely you can’t fine a dead person. Eventally they went away empty handed.
We took Mum off the electoral roll. She kept wanting to vote for “That nice Mr. Menzies” in the 1980s.
You crack me up sometimes Tamb! I needed a good laugh!
ms spock said:
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:Slightly different but the electoral commission wanted me to pay the fine for my mother not voting. I said she was acually dying at the time so she couldn’t lift a pencil or any of that. I said surely you can’t fine a dead person. Eventally they went away empty handed.
We took Mum off the electoral roll. She kept wanting to vote for “That nice Mr. Menzies” in the 1980s.You crack me up sometimes Tamb! I needed a good laugh!
Tamb said:
roughbarked said:
Tamb said:They’d had dealings with me previously when my Mum died.
Somehow the paperwork became muddled & they kept sending letters & forms to her. I got fed up with it & took to writing in large texta “She’s still dead” A few of those & they gave up.Slightly different but the electoral commission wanted me to pay the fine for my mother not voting. I said she was acually dying at the time so she couldn’t lift a pencil or any of that. I said surely you can’t fine a dead person. Eventally they went away empty handed.
We took Mum off the electoral roll. She kept wanting to vote for “That nice Mr. Menzies” in the 1980s.
Should have let her do it. At least she was happy in the knowledge that he was still the PM.
ms spock said:
roughbarked said:
I was an unwilling participant of robodebt. My debt was small compared to some but having to fork out money when one doesn’t have it to give, can put life backwards.
It sure can roughbarked. Did you get your money back?
Only a small part of it.
Tamb said:
ms spock said:
Tamb said:We took Mum off the electoral roll. She kept wanting to vote for “That nice Mr. Menzies” in the 1980s.
You crack me up sometimes Tamb! I needed a good laugh!
My humour is a bit dark but is never intended to hurt.
p.s. I’m glad you enjoy it.
:)
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:
roughbarked said:
I was an unwilling participant of robodebt. My debt was small compared to some but having to fork out money when one doesn’t have it to give, can put life backwards.
It sure can roughbarked. Did you get your money back?
Only a small part of it.
:(((
ms spock said:
Tamb said:
ms spock said:You crack me up sometimes Tamb! I needed a good laugh!
My humour is a bit dark but is never intended to hurt.
p.s. I’m glad you enjoy it.:)
There’s nothing intimidating about you mate.
ms spock said:
ChrispenEvan said:
Tamb said:A family member was very dyslexic Came to me to read her Centrelink correspondence.
It took months to convince them that she was disabled.when I have had some problem with centrelink I have emailed Hank Jongen’s. Amazing how quickly they ring you back and fix things.
I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:
ChrispenEvan said:when I have had some problem with centrelink I have emailed Hank Jongen’s. Amazing how quickly they ring you back and fix things.
I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
I had some difficulty with NBN Ltd a few years back.
While part of this town had the NBN installed, a lot of it didn’t, and the have-not areas showed up on NBN’s roll-out map as ‘no date announced’.
So, i e-mailed them, and asked roughly when in the plan those areas were scheduled for. If they’d said ‘next week’, then great. If they’d said ‘in four years’, well, ok, thanks for the info. No big deal.
But, i started getting the bureaucratically vague answers about how it wasn’t possible to say, it was all so indefinite and up-in-the-air. When i queried them as to how that sort of outlook could be compatible with their more public declarations that all was going to plan, they gave me a lot of chin-music about it being a massive project, so many factors, such a diversity of conditions etc. etc.
All very well, i said, but i’d asked about where one particular town was situated in their plans, not about the whole project. I suggested that we could involve the offices of the relevant Ministers if they wished, but if i could have the few details i requested, that wouldn’t be necessary.
More obfuscation and blather from them.
OK, i told them, shouldn’t be needed, but here goes. So it was queries to the Minister for Communications (one M. Turnbull) and the local MP, Ian McFarlane, who happened to be Minister for Industry.
Shortly thereafter, i received notice that NBN would begin the rollout in the ‘unscheduled’ parts of town within the next six months. Although it had not showed as such on NBN’s map.
That was not my aim. I just wanted some info. But, you want to be a smartarse, well…
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:
ChrispenEvan said:when I have had some problem with centrelink I have emailed Hank Jongen’s. Amazing how quickly they ring you back and fix things.
I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
Huh!
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:
ChrispenEvan said:when I have had some problem with centrelink I have emailed Hank Jongen’s. Amazing how quickly they ring you back and fix things.
I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
yes, I know. He is the media guy. I have never emailed him about robodebt because i never had one.
Michael V said:
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
Huh!
pronouns hey
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:I didn’t know about him ChrispenEvan! Thank you! Go raibh maith agat!
yes, I know. He is the media guy. I have never emailed him about robodebt because i never had one.
:)
According to Matt no 1. He had two breakdowns one year working for one of Murdoch’s awfuls. each time he had to wait to go onto disabilities. ie a time with no income. And they averaged out his year. He is still paying $40 out of his disability payment after having it deferred on appeal last year.
The good news is that they will pay him the day he gets interviewed by the commission.
sarahs mum said:
According to Matt no 1. He had two breakdowns one year working for one of Murdoch’s awfuls. each time he had to wait to go onto disabilities. ie a time with no income. And they averaged out his year. He is still paying $40 out of his disability payment after having it deferred on appeal last year.The good news is that they will pay him the day he gets interviewed by the commission.
But what hell he has been put through!
It’s disgusting and appalling!
I am so glad he will get paid though! I keep watching little bits but it is so depressing and sad. So arrogant! So entitled! So not giving a damn who gets hurt. They knew right from the get go that it was illegal.
Gutless wonder after gutless wonder.
You go to work, you put in time, but you don’t actually do anything that involves ethics and morality or your duty. These are not entry level jobs!
#RoboDebtRC Hank Jongen says he had multiple concerns which he raised with Malisa Golightly “in the corridor” but that
“she told me it’s none of my business”
So he felt he didn’t need to raise it any further & went back to
“business as usual” 🤨
https://twitter.com/strangerous10/status/1620558715979206662
Alan Tudge referred to Australian Federal Police by Linda Burney over Centrelink disclosure
Alan Tudge referred to Australian Federal Police by Linda Burney over Centrelink disclosure
Labor MP Linda Burney has asked the Australian Federal Police to determine whether Human Services Minister Alan Tudge broke the law by disclosing a welfare recipient’s personal information to a journalist.
The Department of Human Services (DHS) has defended the release of the welfare recipient’s personal and protected information, insisting it was proportionate and legal.
The release has been criticised by the Federal Opposition and lawyers who believe it may have a chilling impact on welfare recipients who would otherwise criticise the Government.
Blogger Andie Fox wrote an opinion piece for Fairfax Media early in February claiming Centrelink had “terrorised” her over a debt she claimed she did not owe.
A few weeks later, her personal details were supplied to a journalist who wrote a comment piece from the Government’s perspective, raising the prospect that Centrelink had been “unfairly castigated”.
Look back on the day’s political developments in our blog.
Public servants have told a Senate Estimates hearing in Canberra the “protected” information was collated by DHS officials and approved for release by Mr Tudge’s office.
The department sought legal advice before releasing the information but did not obtain a public interest certificate, with officials claiming they did not need to.
Mr Tudge and his department claimed the disclosure was legal according to section 202 of the Social Security Act 1999 and section 162 of the A New Tax System Family Administration Act 1999.
Lawyers believe this legal argument is untested and could become a test for privacy law.
In a statement, Mr Tudge said the Government took privacy “very seriously” and said information was released to the journalist after approval from the department’s chief legal counsel.
“Where a person makes a false public statement about their dealings with the Department of Human Services, whether through the media or otherwise, social security law and family assistance law enables the department to disclose customer information to the extent that it is necessary to correct factual inaccuracies or potentially misleading information,” he said.
Alan Tudge during Question Time
Citizenship Minister Alan Tudge wants to revive some of the changes abandoned last year.(AAP: Lukas Coch)
“These provisions are important in order for our public institutions to be able to correct the record when false statements are made about their conduct.
“If left unanswered, accusations of this kind may have the effect of dismissing public confidence in them.”
Ms Burney said the actions of Mr Tudge were reckless and immoral at best, and illegal at worst.
“What was revealed today (Thursday) in Senate Estimates was shocking,” she said.
“The private information of an individual who went to a government instrumentality appears to have been provided to a media outlet without her permission.
“If this is the case, then how can we trust this Government to look after anyone’s private information?”
It is common for politicians to refer matters to the federal police and doing so does not automatically trigger and investigation.
In her letter to AFP commissioner Andrew Colvin, Ms Burney said legal experts claimed a reliance on section 202 was “not available” and contrary to “a proper reading of the ACT and decades of established department practice”.
“An AFP spokesman confirmed the receipt of the letter and said it would be evaluated in accordance with normal procedures,” he said.
ms spock said:
Alan Tudge referred to Australian Federal Police by Linda Burney over Centrelink disclosure
Alan Tudge referred to Australian Federal Police by Linda Burney over Centrelink disclosure
Labor MP Linda Burney has asked the Australian Federal Police to determine whether Human Services Minister Alan Tudge broke the law by disclosing a welfare recipient’s personal information to a journalist.
The Department of Human Services (DHS) has defended the release of the welfare recipient’s personal and protected information, insisting it was proportionate and legal.
The release has been criticised by the Federal Opposition and lawyers who believe it may have a chilling impact on welfare recipients who would otherwise criticise the Government.
Blogger Andie Fox wrote an opinion piece for Fairfax Media early in February claiming Centrelink had “terrorised” her over a debt she claimed she did not owe.
A few weeks later, her personal details were supplied to a journalist who wrote a comment piece from the Government’s perspective, raising the prospect that Centrelink had been “unfairly castigated”.
Look back on the day’s political developments in our blog.
Public servants have told a Senate Estimates hearing in Canberra the “protected” information was collated by DHS officials and approved for release by Mr Tudge’s office.
The department sought legal advice before releasing the information but did not obtain a public interest certificate, with officials claiming they did not need to.
Mr Tudge and his department claimed the disclosure was legal according to section 202 of the Social Security Act 1999 and section 162 of the A New Tax System Family Administration Act 1999.
Lawyers believe this legal argument is untested and could become a test for privacy law.
In a statement, Mr Tudge said the Government took privacy “very seriously” and said information was released to the journalist after approval from the department’s chief legal counsel.
“Where a person makes a false public statement about their dealings with the Department of Human Services, whether through the media or otherwise, social security law and family assistance law enables the department to disclose customer information to the extent that it is necessary to correct factual inaccuracies or potentially misleading information,” he said.
Alan Tudge during Question Time
Citizenship Minister Alan Tudge wants to revive some of the changes abandoned last year.(AAP: Lukas Coch)“These provisions are important in order for our public institutions to be able to correct the record when false statements are made about their conduct.
“If left unanswered, accusations of this kind may have the effect of dismissing public confidence in them.”
Ms Burney said the actions of Mr Tudge were reckless and immoral at best, and illegal at worst.
“What was revealed today (Thursday) in Senate Estimates was shocking,” she said.
“The private information of an individual who went to a government instrumentality appears to have been provided to a media outlet without her permission.
“If this is the case, then how can we trust this Government to look after anyone’s private information?”
It is common for politicians to refer matters to the federal police and doing so does not automatically trigger and investigation.
In her letter to AFP commissioner Andrew Colvin, Ms Burney said legal experts claimed a reliance on section 202 was “not available” and contrary to “a proper reading of the ACT and decades of established department practice”.
“An AFP spokesman confirmed the receipt of the letter and said it would be evaluated in accordance with normal procedures,” he said.
Someone has to go down for this crime.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062
“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
The buck has to stop somewhere.
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Betty Oldham: Look, Sir Humphrey, whatever we ask the Minister, he says is an administrative question for you, and whatever we ask you, you say is a policy question for the Minister. How do you suggest we find out what is going on?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Betty Oldham: Well, that’s a load of meaningless drivel. [pause] Isn’t it?
Sir Humphrey: It’s not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the Minister.
Yes Minister (of course.)
btm said:
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Betty Oldham: Look, Sir Humphrey, whatever we ask the Minister, he says is an administrative question for you, and whatever we ask you, you say is a policy question for the Minister. How do you suggest we find out what is going on?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Betty Oldham: Well, that’s a load of meaningless drivel. [pause] Isn’t it?
Sir Humphrey: It’s not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the Minister.Yes Minister (of course.)
It hardly a recommedation of responsible accountability of ministers in government. That it has made a comedy of itself.
btm said:
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Betty Oldham: Look, Sir Humphrey, whatever we ask the Minister, he says is an administrative question for you, and whatever we ask you, you say is a policy question for the Minister. How do you suggest we find out what is going on?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Betty Oldham: Well, that’s a load of meaningless drivel. [pause] Isn’t it?
Sir Humphrey: It’s not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the Minister.Yes Minister (of course.)
:)
roughbarked said:
btm said:
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Betty Oldham: Look, Sir Humphrey, whatever we ask the Minister, he says is an administrative question for you, and whatever we ask you, you say is a policy question for the Minister. How do you suggest we find out what is going on?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Betty Oldham: Well, that’s a load of meaningless drivel. [pause] Isn’t it?
Sir Humphrey: It’s not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the Minister.Yes Minister (of course.)
It hardly a recommendation of responsible accountability of ministers in government. That it has made a comedy of itself.
I put an n in.
roughbarked said:
ms spock said:Alan Tudge referred to Australian Federal Police by Linda Burney over Centrelink disclosure
Alan Tudge referred to Australian Federal Police by Linda Burney over Centrelink disclosure
Labor MP Linda Burney has asked the Australian Federal Police to determine whether Human Services Minister Alan Tudge broke the law by disclosing a welfare recipient’s personal information to a journalist.
The Department of Human Services (DHS) has defended the release of the welfare recipient’s personal and protected information, insisting it was proportionate and legal.
The release has been criticised by the Federal Opposition and lawyers who believe it may have a chilling impact on welfare recipients who would otherwise criticise the Government.
Blogger Andie Fox wrote an opinion piece for Fairfax Media early in February claiming Centrelink had “terrorised” her over a debt she claimed she did not owe.
A few weeks later, her personal details were supplied to a journalist who wrote a comment piece from the Government’s perspective, raising the prospect that Centrelink had been “unfairly castigated”.
Look back on the day’s political developments in our blog.
Public servants have told a Senate Estimates hearing in Canberra the “protected” information was collated by DHS officials and approved for release by Mr Tudge’s office.
The department sought legal advice before releasing the information but did not obtain a public interest certificate, with officials claiming they did not need to.
Mr Tudge and his department claimed the disclosure was legal according to section 202 of the Social Security Act 1999 and section 162 of the A New Tax System Family Administration Act 1999.
Lawyers believe this legal argument is untested and could become a test for privacy law.
In a statement, Mr Tudge said the Government took privacy “very seriously” and said information was released to the journalist after approval from the department’s chief legal counsel.
“Where a person makes a false public statement about their dealings with the Department of Human Services, whether through the media or otherwise, social security law and family assistance law enables the department to disclose customer information to the extent that it is necessary to correct factual inaccuracies or potentially misleading information,” he said.
Alan Tudge during Question Time
Citizenship Minister Alan Tudge wants to revive some of the changes abandoned last year.(AAP: Lukas Coch)“These provisions are important in order for our public institutions to be able to correct the record when false statements are made about their conduct.
“If left unanswered, accusations of this kind may have the effect of dismissing public confidence in them.”
Ms Burney said the actions of Mr Tudge were reckless and immoral at best, and illegal at worst.
“What was revealed today (Thursday) in Senate Estimates was shocking,” she said.
“The private information of an individual who went to a government instrumentality appears to have been provided to a media outlet without her permission.
“If this is the case, then how can we trust this Government to look after anyone’s private information?”
It is common for politicians to refer matters to the federal police and doing so does not automatically trigger and investigation.
In her letter to AFP commissioner Andrew Colvin, Ms Burney said legal experts claimed a reliance on section 202 was “not available” and contrary to “a proper reading of the ACT and decades of established department practice”.
“An AFP spokesman confirmed the receipt of the letter and said it would be evaluated in accordance with normal procedures,” he said.
Someone has to go down for this crime.
They really do.
Like with the Covid benefits Treasurer, Josh Frydenberg as the time was advised by treasury to put in claw back clauses so money that was taken that didn’t met the criteria could be retrieved. He knew it was needed but he chose not to!
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
The sheer entitled hubris.
ms spock said:
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
The sheer entitled hubris.
Doesn’t the buck stop with him
btm said:
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Betty Oldham: Look, Sir Humphrey, whatever we ask the Minister, he says is an administrative question for you, and whatever we ask you, you say is a policy question for the Minister. How do you suggest we find out what is going on?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Betty Oldham: Well, that’s a load of meaningless drivel. [pause] Isn’t it?
Sir Humphrey: It’s not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the Minister.Yes Minister (of course.)
+1
ms spock said:
btm said:
Michael V said:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/101910062“Former cabinet minister Alan Tudge has told a royal commission he was not responsible for his department’s failure to ensure the Robodebt scheme was lawful.”
Not his fault. Let’s blame the Departmental Secretary.
Betty Oldham: Look, Sir Humphrey, whatever we ask the Minister, he says is an administrative question for you, and whatever we ask you, you say is a policy question for the Minister. How do you suggest we find out what is going on?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, yes, yes, I do see that there is a real dilemma here. In that, while it has been government policy to regard policy as a responsibility of Ministers and administration as a responsibility of Officials, the questions of administrative policy can cause confusion between the policy of administration and the administration of policy, especially when responsibility for the administration of the policy of administration conflicts, or overlaps with, responsibility for the policy of the administration of policy.
Betty Oldham: Well, that’s a load of meaningless drivel. [pause] Isn’t it?
Sir Humphrey: It’s not for me to comment on government policy. You must ask the Minister.Yes Minister (of course.)
+1
Morrison had a real gift in this arena, along with his Dorothy Dixer questions.
Alan Tudge will be appearing at the #robodebt royal commission today
Don’t read it if you are feeling low.
His not caring about the suicides is hard going reading.
Just to cheer you all up here are 17 choice Irish Gaelic Swear Words to choose from!
17 of the greatest Irish curse words and insults – defined at last
ms spock said:
Alan Tudge will be appearing at the #robodebt royal commission today
Don’t read it if you are feeling low.
His not caring about the suicides is hard going reading.
Just to cheer you all up here are 17 choice Irish Gaelic Swear Words to choose from!
17 of the greatest Irish curse words and insults – defined at last
Financial stress is probably an overlooked suicide reason, but yeah its a way out just not a good one.
Cymek said:
ms spock said:Alan Tudge will be appearing at the #robodebt royal commission today
Don’t read it if you are feeling low.
His not caring about the suicides is hard going reading.
Just to cheer you all up here are 17 choice Irish Gaelic Swear Words to choose from!
17 of the greatest Irish curse words and insults – defined at last
Financial stress is probably an overlooked suicide reason, but yeah its a way out just not a good one.
It’s tremendously upsetting. Putting stress on folks who are barely making it through the day. And they knew before it started it wasn’t legal. Just appalling.
ms spock said:
Alan Tudge will be appearing at the #robodebt royal commission today
Don’t read it if you are feeling low.
His not caring about the suicides is hard going reading.
Just to cheer you all up here are 17 choice Irish Gaelic Swear Words to choose from!
17 of the greatest Irish curse words and insults – defined at last
Years back, me and my friends had some ‘Irish words’ that we’d made up.
Two i can remember are ‘sleeveen’ (hussy) and ‘sporikeet’ (fool/dolt).
captain_spalding said:
ms spock said:Alan Tudge will be appearing at the #robodebt royal commission today
Don’t read it if you are feeling low.
His not caring about the suicides is hard going reading.
Just to cheer you all up here are 17 choice Irish Gaelic Swear Words to choose from!
17 of the greatest Irish curse words and insults – defined at last
Years back, me and my friends had some ‘Irish words’ that we’d made up.
Two i can remember are ‘sleeveen’ (hussy) and ‘sporikeet’ (fool/dolt).
An níos outrageous is amhlaidh is fearr!
The more outrageous the better!
Christian Porter has insisted someone in one of the two government departments responsible for the robodebt scheme assured him it was legal, while telling a royal commission he did accept some responsibility for the scandal.
The former social services minister and attorney general told the inquiry he could not be sure who provided the legal assurance, but he was sure he had asked about it.
“I do distinctly recall putting a question … that everyone’s assured about the legal underpinnings,” he said. “I can’t recall who it was that affirmed that assurance, but someone did, and I recall that it was a departmental person.
“I couldn’t say if it was , and it happened quickly, and we moved on because it just wasn’t the focus of what was going on.”
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/02/christian-porter-tells-inquiry-someone-in-department-assured-him-robodebt-was-legal-but-i-cant-recall-who
sarahs mum said:
Christian Porter has insisted someone in one of the two government departments responsible for the robodebt scheme assured him it was legal, while telling a royal commission he did accept some responsibility for the scandal.The former social services minister and attorney general told the inquiry he could not be sure who provided the legal assurance, but he was sure he had asked about it.
“I do distinctly recall putting a question … that everyone’s assured about the legal underpinnings,” he said. “I can’t recall who it was that affirmed that assurance, but someone did, and I recall that it was a departmental person.
“I couldn’t say if it was , and it happened quickly, and we moved on because it just wasn’t the focus of what was going on.”
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/02/christian-porter-tells-inquiry-someone-in-department-assured-him-robodebt-was-legal-but-i-cant-recall-who
His capacity to lie is extraordinary. It is so effortless.
There’s no way that if it was legit that they wouldn’t document that in the minutes of their meetings.
Speaking in plain English and with a striking clarity, Blake was overcome by emotion as she told of the anguish the robodebt scheme had caused welfare recipients and the staff who were forced to carry out the program.
“We were speaking about the incorrectness from the start until the end,” Blake, a Centrelink employee since 2000, told the inquiry.
Speaking generally, she added: “And all the management – all the higher levels … I’ve listened to through this, who can’t remember, can’t recall, can’t recollect, couldn’t put your mind to it, I can’t forget.”
As the inquiry nears its conclusion, the commissioner, Catherine Holmes SC, has raised the prospect the Coalition scheme was put in place in 2015 against legal advice due to “collusion” between public servants across two departments. Another possibility, Holmes said, was that officials from the Department of Human Services “deceived” their counterparts at Social Services.
Either way, the inquiry has heard the Abbott government’s cabinet was likely “misled” when they signed off on the robodebt proposal championed by the then social services minister, Scott Morrison, in 2015. The scheme ran until November 2019, when another minister, Stuart Robert, suggested it had only affected a “small cohort”.
“It’s been a bit triggering, really, and frustrating,” Blake tells Guardian Australia of watching the commission. “Like I said in my statement, we were sending stuff to those people all the time … and just getting shut down.”
——
It echoed comments from Morrison when he was asked if he appreciated the irony of having to recall events from years earlier while on the stand. “The difference between that and what you’re referring to is if I needed to know what my bank statement said seven years ago, I would be in a position to go and look it up,” Morrison said.
Miller and Blake told a different story. The commission was shown a Facebook post from Cauzzo, who wrote: “Got a huge debt notice from Centrelink which I believe is incorrect, but not too sure how to go against it since my proof (pay documents, etcetera) are long gone from five-plus years ago. Help.”
After he took his life, Miller discovered a hand-drawn picture on Cauzzo’s fridge that made reference to suicide and debts, alongside several letters from Centrelink and a private collection agency. Cauzzo had serious existing mental health conditions, but his death came as a shock to Miller and those who knew him.
In Blake’s statement to the commission, she recalled a phone call where she had to tell a person with stage four cancer that “he would need to provide his payslips or else we would raise a robodebt against him”.
“After that call I felt dreadful and ashamed to be working for Services Australia. I remember him saying that he was living week to week and didn’t have the money to get bank statements,” she wrote.
Blake and her colleagues understood the “reverse onus” on welfare recipients to provide payslips or bank statements going back six years to disprove a debt based on opaque, spurious calculations was too much for many.
“We knew what we were asking was unrealistic,” Blake tells Guardian Australia.
For Blake, who is now a Community and Public Sector Union delegate, carrying out the robodebt program was the “saddest part of my career”. She contrasted it against other parts of her work, such as helping people get income support during the pandemic and during natural disasters.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/25/saddest-part-of-my-career-centrelink-employee-describes-pain-of-implementing-robodebt
It really is time that it is realised that human beings need to be given back their dignity.
It was an unseasonably warm November day in 2019 when the nation’s then chief law officer, Christian Porter, left a meeting of the expenditure review committee with a word of advice for a shell-shocked Stuart Robert. “It’s right, mate,” he said.
Robert, then minister for Government Services, had just briefed the committee on plans to completely freeze robo-debt collection “pending a review”. He told the room he was preparing to settle a test case in the federal court, known as Amato, by conceding that the debt at issue was invalid because it relied on income averaging.
Six months earlier, acting Department of Human Services chief counsel Timothy Ffrench had briefed Robert on an opinion from the solicitor-general, which said the scheme was illegal. It was a verbal briefing, by demand of the then departmental secretary Renée Leon, and Stuart Robert was unimpressed.
“Opinion,” he purportedly told Ffrench, “is just an opinion.”
It must have been small comfort to Ffrench, then, that it was he who overheard the attorney-general confirm the veracity of that opinion to an intransigent Robert on November 12, 2019, as the two men walked out of the committee.
Still, it was five years too late.
Listen to 7am
In its final weeks of public hearings, the robo-debt royal commission has begun asking for names.
Where officials are unable or unwilling to identify senior people who might have influenced their behaviour in developing or protecting the program, the inquiry’s senior counsel has left them almost nowhere to turn.
Take Jason Ryman, for example.
Over several hours of, at times, excruciating testimony, the former Department of Human Services director, who led the income compliance project that became robo-debt, claimed to never have seen highly critical comments from the Department of Social Services about his concept. He also claimed to never have read a critical brief to Scott Morrison that was sent directly to him by his boss, and to be unable to explain why he sought legal advice on the program, almost a month after it had been approved by cabinet.
Ryman, who also gave evidence last year, returned to the stand on Wednesday afternoon for questioning that largely focused on a five-month period from December 2014 to April 2015, when the embryonic robo-debt concept was coming into being. At its heart, and from the very beginning, Ryman agreed the scheme always relied on using tax office data averaged over 26 weeks to come up with “discrepancies” that were later turned into debts.
However, after initial criticism from DSS, which relayed its then legal advice that using income averaging in this way was unlawful, Ryman made amendments to a draft “new policy proposal” (NPP) that deleted any mention of averaging.
A day earlier, Ryman’s boss, Scott Britton, had emailed him a copy of the Department of Human Services executive minute that had gone to then Social Services minister Scott Morrison, presumably because this contained the detail of what would become the new policy proposal.
more…
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/law-crime/2023/02/25/robo-debt-commission-hand-heart-time-any-exposure#mtr
just following orders
sarahs mum said:
Speaking in plain English and with a striking clarity, Blake was overcome by emotion as she told of the anguish the robodebt scheme had caused welfare recipients and the staff who were forced to carry out the program.“We were speaking about the incorrectness from the start until the end,” Blake, a Centrelink employee since 2000, told the inquiry.
Speaking generally, she added: “And all the management – all the higher levels … I’ve listened to through this, who can’t remember, can’t recall, can’t recollect, couldn’t put your mind to it, I can’t forget.”
The same situation prevailed when i worked for Social Security/Centrelink ( i was there for the transition of its identity).
The people up at the sharp end had a view of the ‘customers’ as people not unlike themselves. Hell, some of us knew the story from being on both sides of the counter at some time or other.
We where there to help these people. Sure, there was some dodgy one, some shysters (some of whom knew how the system worked and how to work it at least as well as any of us, if not better), but 99.5% of people were genuine, so we genuinely wanted to help them.
Management, certainly from a level not far above the local office level on up, viewed the ‘customers’ as being ‘the enemy’. Their measure of success was how often people got told ‘no’, how many of the dodgy ones were caught, and how much money was ‘recovered’.
Brilliant ideas would be handed down from levels above us, and, while the occasional one made some sense, most were instantly recognised by front-line staff as being unfair, unworkable, open to manipulation, or any/all three of those.
However, the gods had spoken, and thus it had to be, and we could but comply, no matter what our level of revulsion.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:
Speaking in plain English and with a striking clarity, Blake was overcome by emotion as she told of the anguish the robodebt scheme had caused welfare recipients and the staff who were forced to carry out the program.“We were speaking about the incorrectness from the start until the end,” Blake, a Centrelink employee since 2000, told the inquiry.
Speaking generally, she added: “And all the management – all the higher levels … I’ve listened to through this, who can’t remember, can’t recall, can’t recollect, couldn’t put your mind to it, I can’t forget.”
The same situation prevailed when i worked for Social Security/Centrelink ( i was there for the transition of its identity).
The people up at the sharp end had a view of the ‘customers’ as people not unlike themselves. Hell, some of us knew the story from being on both sides of the counter at some time or other.
We where there to help these people. Sure, there was some dodgy one, some shysters (some of whom knew how the system worked and how to work it at least as well as any of us, if not better), but 99.5% of people were genuine, so we genuinely wanted to help them.
Management, certainly from a level not far above the local office level on up, viewed the ‘customers’ as being ‘the enemy’. Their measure of success was how often people got told ‘no’, how many of the dodgy ones were caught, and how much money was ‘recovered’.
Brilliant ideas would be handed down from levels above us, and, while the occasional one made some sense, most were instantly recognised by front-line staff as being unfair, unworkable, open to manipulation, or any/all three of those.
However, the gods had spoken, and thus it had to be, and we could but comply, no matter what our level of revulsion.
I was there when the CYSS scheme was first implemented. I started a place called GURU. Griffith’s Unemployed Right to Understanding.
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2023/march/rick-morton/robodebt-and-empathy-bypass
—
It’s a sad sad story.
Matt no 1 gave his testimony to the commission. and i missed it.
https://www.tweet247.net/australia/matthew%20thompson
sarahs mum said:
Matt no 1 gave his testimony to the commission. and i missed it.https://www.tweet247.net/australia/matthew%20thompson
oh. i am sad I missed it.
Rick Morton
SquigglyRick
·
1h
Replying to
SquigglyRick
Thompson has had 28 different jobs since he was 18, including as a casual photographer for The Hobart Mercury. He has schizophrenia and bipolar. https://thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/2023/03/0
Rick Morton
@SquigglyRick
·
1h
Asked what his life would have been like is he wasn’t on Newstart Allowance (Jobseeker) – or even, say, if it wasn’t keeping up with cost of living – Thompson says: “I couldn’t live. And I mean that.”
Thompson: “Dealing with Centrelink… it’s a full time job.”
Thompson gets TWO debt notices totalling more than $11,000 in one day relating to his receipt of Newstart Allowance and sickness allowance. It was devastating.
Thompson had payslips for one of his debts and he sent them in. It was “reassessed” but still came in at more than $1100 which was mystifying to him because “it was still wrong.”
Thompson: “It has taken years off my life. I had a heart attack as well.”
Wow. Thompson: “It made me feel like a criminal and a cheat. It really messed me up. I really struggle with the way that politicians talk about people like me. It makes me have very little faith in the system. It makes me sad and sick.”
—-
If anyone can get the transcript off the Saturday paper…
sarahs mum said:
Rick Morton
@SquigglyRick
·
1h
Asked what his life would have been like is he wasn’t on Newstart Allowance (Jobseeker) – or even, say, if it wasn’t keeping up with cost of living – Thompson says: “I couldn’t live. And I mean that.”Thompson: “Dealing with Centrelink… it’s a full time job.”
Thompson gets TWO debt notices totalling more than $11,000 in one day relating to his receipt of Newstart Allowance and sickness allowance. It was devastating.
Thompson had payslips for one of his debts and he sent them in. It was “reassessed” but still came in at more than $1100 which was mystifying to him because “it was still wrong.”
Thompson: “It has taken years off my life. I had a heart attack as well.”
Wow. Thompson: “It made me feel like a criminal and a cheat. It really messed me up. I really struggle with the way that politicians talk about people like me. It makes me have very little faith in the system. It makes me sad and sick.”
—-If anyone can get the transcript off the Saturday paper…
I think Boris is a subscriber.
PoliSub
@Polisubstance
Oh my, Matthew Thompson: ‘It’s taken years off my life…I’ve had a heart attack. I was watching Scott Morrison’s appearance…I couldn’t sleep…that’s what driven me to make this submission…I was really moved by Jennifer Miller’s testimony…’ #RobodebtRC 🖤
He reads: ‘the Robodebt scheme made my mental health worse. I still feel I’m being hunted down. Calling MPs ‘The Honourable’: ‘they were the architects of a scheme which caused so much pain, caused people to lose their lives. Powerful people take advantage of vulnerable people…’
Matthew Thompson concludes: ‘I hope this RC changes that.’ Commissioner says she can’t guarantee that.
Thank you for your submission, Mr Thompson.
Barry Rich
BazzaRich53
·
47m
Replying to
Polisubstance
and
@lovinglimbo
Courageous effort Matthew Thompson to say what many of my friends have been saying for years now.
How dare some of these pollies have the temerity to even expect to be addressed as The Rt. Honourable when they wouldn’t even know what the word means.
I salute you Matthew Thompson.
sarahs mum said:
PoliSub
@Polisubstance
Oh my, Matthew Thompson: ‘It’s taken years off my life…I’ve had a heart attack. I was watching Scott Morrison’s appearance…I couldn’t sleep…that’s what driven me to make this submission…I was really moved by Jennifer Miller’s testimony…’ #RobodebtRC 🖤He reads: ‘the Robodebt scheme made my mental health worse. I still feel I’m being hunted down. Calling MPs ‘The Honourable’: ‘they were the architects of a scheme which caused so much pain, caused people to lose their lives. Powerful people take advantage of vulnerable people…’
Matthew Thompson concludes: ‘I hope this RC changes that.’ Commissioner says she can’t guarantee that.
Thank you for your submission, Mr Thompson.Barry Rich
BazzaRich53 · 47m Replying toPolisubstance and
@lovinglimbo
Courageous effort Matthew Thompson to say what many of my friends have been saying for years now.
How dare some of these pollies have the temerity to even expect to be addressed as The Rt. Honourable when they wouldn’t even know what the word means.
I salute you Matthew Thompson.
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).
Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Humans are shit though. I’ve been in situations where I was instructed to implement total bullshit. I pushed back, complained, and sometimes refused. Later on , the whole department gets in trouble for said bullshit. But are people like me vindicated? Still no. Our names are still mud and we’re still viewed as trouble-makers and not team players.
Conformity is valued much more than doing what is right or good or useful or productive.
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Niece at Centrelink the other day. she’s trying to get carer’s forms into the system after finding she has not been being the right rate for years.
Centrelink employee sitting down. ‘let’s get this right from the start- i am not here to help you.’
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Humans are shit though. I’ve been in situations where I was instructed to implement total bullshit. I pushed back, complained, and sometimes refused. Later on , the whole department gets in trouble for said bullshit. But are people like me vindicated? Still no. Our names are still mud and we’re still viewed as trouble-makers and not team players.
Conformity is valued much more than doing what is right or good or useful or productive.
Only following orders type excuses
Cymek said:
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Humans are shit though. I’ve been in situations where I was instructed to implement total bullshit. I pushed back, complained, and sometimes refused. Later on , the whole department gets in trouble for said bullshit. But are people like me vindicated? Still no. Our names are still mud and we’re still viewed as trouble-makers and not team players.
Conformity is valued much more than doing what is right or good or useful or productive.
Only following orders type excuses
banal
https://thewest.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900202
paywalled.
someone can get that..
sarahs mum said:
https://thewest.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900202paywalled.
someone can get that..
https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900208
A robodebt victim has described how the botched program made him feel like a criminal and still affects his mental health five years after the unlawful debts were raised.
Matthew Thompson, who lives on a rural property in Tasmania, was incorrectly told he owed $11,000 for accessing Newstart and the sickness allowance between 2012 and 2015.
Mr Thompson worked casually as a photographer for the Hobart Mercury newspaper and had fluctuating shifts and income.
Recently diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder, Mr Thompson told the commission he had struggled with his mental health throughout his life and at times it impacted his ability to work.
He described feeling “shocked” at receiving two Centrelink letters in 2018 raising the debt and had to find his pay slips from the period, which took a lot of time.
“I’ve been on and off Centrelink since I was 20. It was easier back then, it was face-to-face and there was more humanity,” he told the commission.
“These days I can be on the phone for hours (and) sometimes they hang up on you … dealing with Centrelink is a full time job.”
Mr Thompson later had his Newstart debt reduced and eventually wiped.
In August 2020 he received a letter saying Centrelink no longer calculated debts in the same way and it had been reduced to zero.
“There was a bit of relief but the damage had already been done,” Mr Thompson said.
“The way they write ‘we no longer do this’, wouldn’t it be nice if they said ‘sorry, we don’t do this anymore’.”
Mr Thompson followed the royal commission closely and felt compelled to give evidence after he watched former prime minister Scott Morrison being questioned.
“After Scott Morrison’s appearance – I was watching the whole thing – that night I couldn’t sleep. I was furious and wound up,” he said.
“The robodebt scheme has had a lasting effect on me as it had on many others. It made my mental health worse. It made me feel like a criminal and a cheat.”
He said the way politicians talked about people who needed support made him feel “sad and sick”.
“(Coalition ministers) were the architects of the scheme which caused so much harm … and they continue to blame others,” he said.
“It seems to me that the powerful people are always able to take advantage of vulnerable people and the gap between rich and poor increases.
“No matter how many royal commissions we have it always seems to be the case. I hope this commission changes that.”
A former public servant accused of withholding legal advice about the unlawfulness of the scheme will also give evidence for a second time.
Annette Musolino, the former chief counsel for the human services department overseeing the scheme, will be questioned on Wednesday.
Former department secretary Renee Leon, who is now vice-chancellor of Charles Sturt University, told the commission on Tuesday Ms Musolino did not communicate that she was aware of legal advice which questioned the legality of income averaging.
Professor Leon said when media reports about problems with the scheme began to surface in 2018 she asked Ms Musolino if the department was confident the program was lawful.
She told the commission Ms Musolino assured her the department was confident about its legality.
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
https://thewest.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900202paywalled.
someone can get that..https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900208
A robodebt victim has described how the botched program made him feel like a criminal and still affects his mental health five years after the unlawful debts were raised.
Matthew Thompson, who lives on a rural property in Tasmania, was incorrectly told he owed $11,000 for accessing Newstart and the sickness allowance between 2012 and 2015.
Mr Thompson worked casually as a photographer for the Hobart Mercury newspaper and had fluctuating shifts and income.
Recently diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder, Mr Thompson told the commission he had struggled with his mental health throughout his life and at times it impacted his ability to work.
He described feeling “shocked” at receiving two Centrelink letters in 2018 raising the debt and had to find his pay slips from the period, which took a lot of time.
“I’ve been on and off Centrelink since I was 20. It was easier back then, it was face-to-face and there was more humanity,” he told the commission.
“These days I can be on the phone for hours (and) sometimes they hang up on you … dealing with Centrelink is a full time job.”
Mr Thompson later had his Newstart debt reduced and eventually wiped.
In August 2020 he received a letter saying Centrelink no longer calculated debts in the same way and it had been reduced to zero.
“There was a bit of relief but the damage had already been done,” Mr Thompson said.
“The way they write ‘we no longer do this’, wouldn’t it be nice if they said ‘sorry, we don’t do this anymore’.”
Mr Thompson followed the royal commission closely and felt compelled to give evidence after he watched former prime minister Scott Morrison being questioned.
“After Scott Morrison’s appearance – I was watching the whole thing – that night I couldn’t sleep. I was furious and wound up,” he said.
“The robodebt scheme has had a lasting effect on me as it had on many others. It made my mental health worse. It made me feel like a criminal and a cheat.”
He said the way politicians talked about people who needed support made him feel “sad and sick”.
“(Coalition ministers) were the architects of the scheme which caused so much harm … and they continue to blame others,” he said.
“It seems to me that the powerful people are always able to take advantage of vulnerable people and the gap between rich and poor increases.
“No matter how many royal commissions we have it always seems to be the case. I hope this commission changes that.”
A former public servant accused of withholding legal advice about the unlawfulness of the scheme will also give evidence for a second time.
Annette Musolino, the former chief counsel for the human services department overseeing the scheme, will be questioned on Wednesday.
Former department secretary Renee Leon, who is now vice-chancellor of Charles Sturt University, told the commission on Tuesday Ms Musolino did not communicate that she was aware of legal advice which questioned the legality of income averaging.
Professor Leon said when media reports about problems with the scheme began to surface in 2018 she asked Ms Musolino if the department was confident the program was lawful.
She told the commission Ms Musolino assured her the department was confident about its legality.
this is incorrect. there were two debts raised on Matt. They totalled 19k. Matt kept on querying. Debt one was lowered twice and then removed altogether. Debt 2 was decreased. He was getting continual calls from debt collectors. Finally he was told if he did not agree to setlle a payment plan they would be removing his entire centrelink payments until the debt was paid off. He agreed to have it paid at $15 a fortnight because to go for months without any money was not plausible. he is still paying it off.
sarahs mum said:
https://thewest.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900202paywalled.
someone can get that..
https://au.news.yahoo.com/hearing-examine-legal-advice-provided-163150572.html
Dunno if it is the same story.
ChrispenEvan said:
sarahs mum said:
https://thewest.com.au/business/personal-finance/robodebt-made-victim-feel-like-a-criminal-inquiry-c-9900202paywalled.
someone can get that..https://au.news.yahoo.com/hearing-examine-legal-advice-provided-163150572.html
Dunno if it is the same story.
yes. same. but thanks Boris.
sarahs mum said:
Centrelink employee sitting down. ‘let’s get this right from the start- i am not here to help you.’
An odd thing to say. I’d be asking them what they meant by that.
There are limits to the kinds of advice and assistance you can offer to a ‘customer’ in that situation. Obviously, you can’t help them to conceal or distort any information that’s relevant to the matter, or point out to them any known ‘loopholes’ or quirks of the rules which they might exploit to their advantage (and which are, hopefully, under review for adjustment).
But, it’d be a strange way to begin to explain that.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:Centrelink employee sitting down. ‘let’s get this right from the start- i am not here to help you.’
An odd thing to say. I’d be asking them what they meant by that.
There are limits to the kinds of advice and assistance you can offer to a ‘customer’ in that situation. Obviously, you can’t help them to conceal or distort any information that’s relevant to the matter, or point out to them any known ‘loopholes’ or quirks of the rules which they might exploit to their advantage (and which are, hopefully, under review for adjustment).
But, it’d be a strange way to begin to explain that.
I also thought it strange.
sarahs mum said:
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:Centrelink employee sitting down. ‘let’s get this right from the start- i am not here to help you.’
An odd thing to say. I’d be asking them what they meant by that.
There are limits to the kinds of advice and assistance you can offer to a ‘customer’ in that situation. Obviously, you can’t help them to conceal or distort any information that’s relevant to the matter, or point out to them any known ‘loopholes’ or quirks of the rules which they might exploit to their advantage (and which are, hopefully, under review for adjustment).
But, it’d be a strange way to begin to explain that.
I also thought it strange.
If i didn’t like his/her explanation, i’d ask for their supervisor to come to the desk, and explain that this person had said that they were not there to help me, and i’d like to speak with another staff member more inclined to give me some assistance.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:
captain_spalding said:An odd thing to say. I’d be asking them what they meant by that.
There are limits to the kinds of advice and assistance you can offer to a ‘customer’ in that situation. Obviously, you can’t help them to conceal or distort any information that’s relevant to the matter, or point out to them any known ‘loopholes’ or quirks of the rules which they might exploit to their advantage (and which are, hopefully, under review for adjustment).
But, it’d be a strange way to begin to explain that.
I also thought it strange.
If i didn’t like his/her explanation, i’d ask for their supervisor to come to the desk, and explain that this person had said that they were not there to help me, and i’d like to speak with another staff member more inclined to give me some assistance.
+1
AussieDJ said:
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:I also thought it strange.
If i didn’t like his/her explanation, i’d ask for their supervisor to come to the desk, and explain that this person had said that they were not there to help me, and i’d like to speak with another staff member more inclined to give me some assistance.
+1
Help as in filling out forms ?
Cymek said:
AussieDJ said:
captain_spalding said:If i didn’t like his/her explanation, i’d ask for their supervisor to come to the desk, and explain that this person had said that they were not there to help me, and i’d like to speak with another staff member more inclined to give me some assistance.
+1
Help as in filling out forms ?
Perhaps. Haven’t seen any for a longtime, but some of the forms were rather involved. And some people just don’t do well with forms, and some are terrified of making errors on them, or of mistakenly providing ‘false’ information.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:
captain_spalding said:An odd thing to say. I’d be asking them what they meant by that.
There are limits to the kinds of advice and assistance you can offer to a ‘customer’ in that situation. Obviously, you can’t help them to conceal or distort any information that’s relevant to the matter, or point out to them any known ‘loopholes’ or quirks of the rules which they might exploit to their advantage (and which are, hopefully, under review for adjustment).
But, it’d be a strange way to begin to explain that.
I also thought it strange.
If i didn’t like his/her explanation, i’d ask for their supervisor to come to the desk, and explain that this person had said that they were not there to help me, and i’d like to speak with another staff member more inclined to give me some assistance.
it helps if you know how to ask for help. or who to ask for help. I remember Brett being much relieved when he found out he could ask for a social worker.
Cymek said:
AussieDJ said:
captain_spalding said:If i didn’t like his/her explanation, i’d ask for their supervisor to come to the desk, and explain that this person had said that they were not there to help me, and i’d like to speak with another staff member more inclined to give me some assistance.
+1
Help as in filling out forms ?
I don’t think so. I think it is a review. As to why she is on the wrong payment.
captain_spalding said:
Cymek said:
AussieDJ said:+1
Help as in filling out forms ?
Perhaps. Haven’t seen any for a longtime, but some of the forms were rather involved. And some people just don’t do well with forms, and some are terrified of making errors on them, or of mistakenly providing ‘false’ information.
prhaps terrified about mistakenly providing ‘false’ information because of the threats contained therein.
sarahs mum said:
it helps if you know how to ask for help. or who to ask for help. I remember Brett being much relieved when he found out he could ask for a social worker.
Just like every other workplace, Centrelink offices can have their full cast of characters, ranging from the best to the worst. This could include ‘the stroppy bastard/bitch’ who hates dealing with ‘customers’ and doesn’t want to be doing the front-desk stuff, and who may be bringing their home problems to work with them, and who’s found that a stroppy manner can sometimes get them what they want, and so takes it out on the customers, and who, for reasons never understood by the majority, seems to get away with it.
sarahs mum said:
captain_spalding said:
Cymek said:Help as in filling out forms ?
Perhaps. Haven’t seen any for a longtime, but some of the forms were rather involved. And some people just don’t do well with forms, and some are terrified of making errors on them, or of mistakenly providing ‘false’ information.
prhaps terrified about mistakenly providing ‘false’ information because of the threats contained therein.
And with the example of Robodebt to scare you further…
sarahs mum said:
I don’t think so. I think it is a review. As to why she is on the wrong payment.
Would be helpful to know if it was a ‘local’ staff member or someone from some ‘flying squad’ review team that had descended on the place, and who were probably making themselves as unpopular with ‘local’ staff as with the local ‘customers’.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:it helps if you know how to ask for help. or who to ask for help. I remember Brett being much relieved when he found out he could ask for a social worker.
Just like every other workplace, Centrelink offices can have their full cast of characters, ranging from the best to the worst. This could include ‘the stroppy bastard/bitch’ who hates dealing with ‘customers’ and doesn’t want to be doing the front-desk stuff, and who may be bringing their home problems to work with them, and who’s found that a stroppy manner can sometimes get them what they want, and so takes it out on the customers, and who, for reasons never understood by the majority, seems to get away with it.
Some public servants are sneaky and underhanded and use the anti bullying policy to act nasty and then claim they are bullied if their behaviour is mentioned, the bully claiming they are bullied.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:I don’t think so. I think it is a review. As to why she is on the wrong payment.
Would be helpful to know if it was a ‘local’ staff member or someone from some ‘flying squad’ review team that had descended on the place, and who were probably making themselves as unpopular with ‘local’ staff as with the local ‘customers’.
It would. My sister has had her belief about ‘dole bludgers’ turned around a lot of late. She said to me last night how she doesn’t understand why poor people have to pay people to help them through the system. Since niece has got a person budgeted to fill in NDIS forms things have been getting substantially better.
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Humans are shit though. I’ve been in situations where I was instructed to implement total bullshit. I pushed back, complained, and sometimes refused. Later on , the whole department gets in trouble for said bullshit. But are people like me vindicated? Still no. Our names are still mud and we’re still viewed as trouble-makers and not team players.
Conformity is valued much more than doing what is right or good or useful or productive.
It’s the Golden Rule, Mr Thos. “They who have the gold, maketh the rules”.
If you want to make the rules, then you get the gold (management position) that allows you to do so.
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Humans are shit though. I’ve been in situations where I was instructed to implement total bullshit. I pushed back, complained, and sometimes refused. Later on , the whole department gets in trouble for said bullshit. But are people like me vindicated? Still no. Our names are still mud and we’re still viewed as trouble-makers and not team players.
Conformity is valued much more than doing what is right or good or useful or productive.
Yeah.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-01/qld-robodebt-scheme-royal-commission-matthew-thompson/102039536
Woodie said:
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
As i’ve said before, bullshit like the Robodebt scheme takes a toll not only on the poor bloody ‘customers’, but on the staff who have no choice but to implement what they almost certainly recognise as total ratbaggery (OK, they have a choice, they can resign from the job, but what happens then? They become the next Robodebt victim?).Legitimised victimisation like this on the basis of what is essentially fictitious evidence can only be compelled to take place at the behest of people at and above a certain point up the line, who have the power to prevent it, but who see the need to curry favour with their departmental or political masters as over-riding law, decency, common sense, or conscience.
Humans are shit though. I’ve been in situations where I was instructed to implement total bullshit. I pushed back, complained, and sometimes refused. Later on , the whole department gets in trouble for said bullshit. But are people like me vindicated? Still no. Our names are still mud and we’re still viewed as trouble-makers and not team players.
Conformity is valued much more than doing what is right or good or useful or productive.
It’s the Golden Rule, Mr Thos. “They who have the gold, maketh the rules”.
If you want to make the rules, then you get the gold (management position) that allows you to do so.
Management is boring though. I’ve never had the impulse to lord it over people. Even as a teacher now I’d prefer to give my students autonomy if they’re mature enough for it.
Kothos said:
Management is boring though. I’ve never had the impulse to lord it over people. Even as a teacher now I’d prefer to give my students autonomy if they’re mature enough for it.
A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:Management is boring though. I’ve never had the impulse to lord it over people. Even as a teacher now I’d prefer to give my students autonomy if they’re mature enough for it.
A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
…… and I just don’t want all that money that bosess get paid. I’ll be having none of that either………..
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:Management is boring though. I’ve never had the impulse to lord it over people. Even as a teacher now I’d prefer to give my students autonomy if they’re mature enough for it.
A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
It’s pretty nuts. Even when I got to lower management I was fully flabbergasted at how about 40% of my time was taken up with compulsory meetings, most of which were useless. Humans need to improve their communication protocols.
Woodie said:
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:Management is boring though. I’ve never had the impulse to lord it over people. Even as a teacher now I’d prefer to give my students autonomy if they’re mature enough for it.
A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
…… and I just don’t want all that money that bosess get paid. I’ll be having none of that either………..
Sometimes you have to choose… I took a 50k pay cut to be a teacher.
Woodie said:
…… and I just don’t want all that money that bosess get paid. I’ll be having none of that either………..
The money would have been nice, true enough.
But the endless round of meeting after meeting and the politicking and the bullshit would have driven me to suicide, i’m sure.
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:Management is boring though. I’ve never had the impulse to lord it over people. Even as a teacher now I’d prefer to give my students autonomy if they’re mature enough for it.
A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
It’s pretty nuts. Even when I got to lower management I was fully flabbergasted at how about 40% of my time was taken up with compulsory meetings, most of which were useless. Humans need to improve their communication protocols.
Well, you then rise higher in management where you can then cancel all those meetings. Simples. 😁
Kothos said:
It’s pretty nuts. Even when I got to lower management I was fully flabbergasted at how about 40% of my time was taken up with compulsory meetings, most of which were useless. Humans need to improve their communication protocols.
Meeting rooms can be booked for not more than 30 mins.
No chairs, no tables. You want to take notes, use a clipboard.
After 30 mins, door open automatically, strobe lights begin to flash, very loud brass band/marching music begins to play, can’t be shut off by room users.
Woodie said:
Well, you then rise higher in management where you can then cancel all those meetings. Simples. 😁
When the D-Day invasion was being planned in WW2, the various committees all had the same question at the end of every meeting’s agenda.
‘Does this committee have any need to convene again?’
Eventually, having done their work/achieved their purpose, most voted ‘no’, and disbanded, freeing people to do other things.
Woodie said:
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
It’s pretty nuts. Even when I got to lower management I was fully flabbergasted at how about 40% of my time was taken up with compulsory meetings, most of which were useless. Humans need to improve their communication protocols.
Well, you then rise higher in management where you can then cancel all those meetings. Simples. 😁
LOL, I can find flaws with that argument, but the truth is, I never thought of that.
Kothos said:
Woodie said:
captain_spalding said:A few years back, my boss asked me why i hadn’t risen higher in management than i was, as i seemed quite capable of ‘bigger ‘ things.
‘Because i f***king HATE meetings’, i explained.
…… and I just don’t want all that money that bosess get paid. I’ll be having none of that either………..
Sometimes you have to choose… I took a 50k pay cut to be a teacher.
I took a 50% pay cut when I started in radio.
AussieDJ said:
Kothos said:
Woodie said:…… and I just don’t want all that money that bosess get paid. I’ll be having none of that either………..
Sometimes you have to choose… I took a 50k pay cut to be a teacher.
I took a 50% pay cut when I started in radio.
I never earned as much as either of you.
AussieDJ said:
Kothos said:
Woodie said:…… and I just don’t want all that money that bosess get paid. I’ll be having none of that either………..
Sometimes you have to choose… I took a 50k pay cut to be a teacher.
I took a 50% pay cut when I started in radio.
sarahs mum said:
Well done Matt. Must feel good to be heard for once.
sarahs mum said:
:(
ABC News
6 m ·
A photographer who had a heart attack after being issued with an illegal debt notice has described how the ordeal took years off his life and made him feel like a cheat and a criminal.
https://fb.watch/i_X4lL7GIL/
sarahs mum said:
ABC News
6 m ·
A photographer who had a heart attack after being issued with an illegal debt notice has described how the ordeal took years off his life and made him feel like a cheat and a criminal.https://fb.watch/i_X4lL7GIL/
Catherine Holmes seems up to the job.
Matt#1 messaged me to say he would be on the Project at 6.30.
sarahs mum said:
Matt#1 messaged me to say he would be on the Project at 6.30.
Did you reassure him that you’d think none the less of him for that?
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:
Matt#1 messaged me to say he would be on the Project at 6.30.Did you reassure him that you’d think none the less of him for that?
The Project is awesome.
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:
Matt#1 messaged me to say he would be on the Project at 6.30.Did you reassure him that you’d think none the less of him for that?
The Project is awesome.
It does a good job, yes.
matt didn’t happen. But I remembered why I don’t watch the project.
sarahs mum said:
matt didn’t happen. But I remembered why I don’t watch the project.
The same thoughts occurred to me.
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
matt didn’t happen. But I remembered why I don’t watch the project.
The same thoughts occurred to me.
they said the audio was stuffed.
well…that’s professional.
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
matt didn’t happen. But I remembered why I don’t watch the project.
The same thoughts occurred to me.
they said the audio was stuffed.
well…that’s professional.
I have no idea what this “project” thing is, but the Internet has just told me there was a Jesus joke on it that someone has deemed pathetic.
Matt got a call from Cetrelink this morning to say they are reviewing his robodebt/
sarahs mum said:
Matt got a call from Cetrelink this morning to say they are reviewing his robodebt/
Good news or bad news?
Kothos said:
sarahs mum said:
Matt got a call from Cetrelink this morning to say they are reviewing his robodebt/
Good news or bad news?
Read back the last dozen posts.
Precis. Matt was robodebted. Appealed. Robodebted for less. bullied. appealed. robodebted for less. bullied. told that if didn’t comply they would take all of his pension.
Matt watched Scomo at the commission. got angry. Got drunk. couldn’t sleep. Put in a submission.
He went to brisbane two days ago and fronted.
sarahs mum said:
Kothos said:
sarahs mum said:
Matt got a call from Cetrelink this morning to say they are reviewing his robodebt/
Good news or bad news?
Read back the last dozen posts.
Precis. Matt was robodebted. Appealed. Robodebted for less. bullied. appealed. robodebted for less. bullied. told that if didn’t comply they would take all of his pension.
Matt watched Scomo at the commission. got angry. Got drunk. couldn’t sleep. Put in a submission.
He went to brisbane two days ago and fronted.
:-(
Kothos said:
sarahs mum said:
Kothos said:Good news or bad news?
Read back the last dozen posts.
Precis. Matt was robodebted. Appealed. Robodebted for less. bullied. appealed. robodebted for less. bullied. told that if didn’t comply they would take all of his pension.
Matt watched Scomo at the commission. got angry. Got drunk. couldn’t sleep. Put in a submission.
He went to brisbane two days ago and fronted.
:-(
sarahs mum said:
ABC News 6 m · A photographer who had a heart attack after being issued with an illegal debt notice has described how the ordeal took years off his life and made him feel like a cheat and a criminal. https://fb.watch/i_X4lL7GIL/A Department of Human Services (DHS) official has told a royal commission she was verbally abused and threatened with losing her job by a senior public servant after raising concerns about the robodebt scheme.
On Friday the inquiry heard more evidence about what several witnesses have described as a toxic culture within the department that ran the controversial program between 2015 and 2019.
Appearing at the commission on Friday, Tenille Collins, a mid-level DHS bureaucrat who still works at its successor agency Services Australia, also sensationally claimed she switched off a key part of the system without approval.
Collins became emotional as she recounted the response from the-then DHS deputy secretary, Malisa Golightly, saying her boss berated her and threw her phone at her desk.
“My recollection is for about the next hour screamed at me irrationally, is the only way I could describe it,” Collins told the hearing.
As the scheme was exploding in controversy in December 2016, Collins claims she made a change that meant debts were not automatically issued using income averaging where welfare recipients did not respond.
—-
Collins said in her statement that in January 2017 she also proposed the department switch off the entire program. She said Golightly responding by calling her an “idiot” and an “imbecile”. She also claimed her job was threatened. Collins told the commission she now felt “embarrassed” she never made a formal complaint about Golightly.
“I didn’t make a complaint about Ms Golightly’s behaviour at the time,” she said. “It’s something I feel embarrassed about.”
—-
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/03/robodebt-inquiry-hears-public-servants-claims-she-was-screamed-at-irrationally-after-querying-scheme
sarahs mum said:
A Department of Human Services (DHS) official has told a royal commission she was verbally abused and threatened with losing her job by a senior public servant after raising concerns about the robodebt scheme.On Friday the inquiry heard more evidence about what several witnesses have described as a toxic culture within the department that ran the controversial program between 2015 and 2019.
Appearing at the commission on Friday, Tenille Collins, a mid-level DHS bureaucrat who still works at its successor agency Services Australia, also sensationally claimed she switched off a key part of the system without approval.
Collins became emotional as she recounted the response from the-then DHS deputy secretary, Malisa Golightly, saying her boss berated her and threw her phone at her desk.
“My recollection is for about the next hour screamed at me irrationally, is the only way I could describe it,” Collins told the hearing.
As the scheme was exploding in controversy in December 2016, Collins claims she made a change that meant debts were not automatically issued using income averaging where welfare recipients did not respond.
—-
Collins said in her statement that in January 2017 she also proposed the department switch off the entire program. She said Golightly responding by calling her an “idiot” and an “imbecile”. She also claimed her job was threatened. Collins told the commission she now felt “embarrassed” she never made a formal complaint about Golightly.
“I didn’t make a complaint about Ms Golightly’s behaviour at the time,” she said. “It’s something I feel embarrassed about.”
—-
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/03/robodebt-inquiry-hears-public-servants-claims-she-was-screamed-at-irrationally-after-querying-scheme
At least she is speaking up now.
This was a whistle blower moment!
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:
A Department of Human Services (DHS) official has told a royal commission she was verbally abused and threatened with losing her job by a senior public servant after raising concerns about the robodebt scheme.On Friday the inquiry heard more evidence about what several witnesses have described as a toxic culture within the department that ran the controversial program between 2015 and 2019.
Appearing at the commission on Friday, Tenille Collins, a mid-level DHS bureaucrat who still works at its successor agency Services Australia, also sensationally claimed she switched off a key part of the system without approval.
Collins became emotional as she recounted the response from the-then DHS deputy secretary, Malisa Golightly, saying her boss berated her and threw her phone at her desk.
“My recollection is for about the next hour screamed at me irrationally, is the only way I could describe it,” Collins told the hearing.
As the scheme was exploding in controversy in December 2016, Collins claims she made a change that meant debts were not automatically issued using income averaging where welfare recipients did not respond.
—-
Collins said in her statement that in January 2017 she also proposed the department switch off the entire program. She said Golightly responding by calling her an “idiot” and an “imbecile”. She also claimed her job was threatened. Collins told the commission she now felt “embarrassed” she never made a formal complaint about Golightly.
“I didn’t make a complaint about Ms Golightly’s behaviour at the time,” she said. “It’s something I feel embarrassed about.”
—-
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/03/robodebt-inquiry-hears-public-servants-claims-she-was-screamed-at-irrationally-after-querying-scheme
At least she is speaking up now.
This was a whistle blower moment!
Give you the tip…if someone yelled at me for an hour I would be already gone or there would be a complaint in the works with me already gone until it was resolved.
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:
A Department of Human Services (DHS) official has told a royal commission she was verbally abused and threatened with losing her job by a senior public servant after raising concerns about the robodebt scheme.On Friday the inquiry heard more evidence about what several witnesses have described as a toxic culture within the department that ran the controversial program between 2015 and 2019.
Appearing at the commission on Friday, Tenille Collins, a mid-level DHS bureaucrat who still works at its successor agency Services Australia, also sensationally claimed she switched off a key part of the system without approval.
Collins became emotional as she recounted the response from the-then DHS deputy secretary, Malisa Golightly, saying her boss berated her and threw her phone at her desk.
“My recollection is for about the next hour screamed at me irrationally, is the only way I could describe it,” Collins told the hearing.
As the scheme was exploding in controversy in December 2016, Collins claims she made a change that meant debts were not automatically issued using income averaging where welfare recipients did not respond.
—-
Collins said in her statement that in January 2017 she also proposed the department switch off the entire program. She said Golightly responding by calling her an “idiot” and an “imbecile”. She also claimed her job was threatened. Collins told the commission she now felt “embarrassed” she never made a formal complaint about Golightly.
“I didn’t make a complaint about Ms Golightly’s behaviour at the time,” she said. “It’s something I feel embarrassed about.”
—-
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/03/robodebt-inquiry-hears-public-servants-claims-she-was-screamed-at-irrationally-after-querying-scheme
At least she is speaking up now.
This was a whistle blower moment!
Give you the tip…if someone yelled at me for an hour I would be already gone or there would be a complaint in the works with me already gone until it was resolved.
Good point!
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:At least she is speaking up now.
This was a whistle blower moment!
Give you the tip…if someone yelled at me for an hour I would be already gone or there would be a complaint in the works with me already gone until it was resolved.
Good point!
Mostly because I would have been shaking and feeling like puking about two minutes in to the diatribe.
sarahs mum said:
ms spock said:
sarahs mum said:Give you the tip…if someone yelled at me for an hour I would be already gone or there would be a complaint in the works with me already gone until it was resolved.
Good point!
Mostly because I would have been shaking and feeling like puking about two minutes in to the diatribe.
I would probably be spacing out myself.
The inquiry continues, and former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull is expected to take the stand on Monday.
sarahs mum said:
A Department of Human Services (DHS) official has told a royal commission she was verbally abused and threatened with losing her job by a senior public servant after raising concerns about the robodebt scheme.On Friday the inquiry heard more evidence about what several witnesses have described as a toxic culture within the department that ran the controversial program between 2015 and 2019.
Appearing at the commission on Friday, Tenille Collins, a mid-level DHS bureaucrat who still works at its successor agency Services Australia, also sensationally claimed she switched off a key part of the system without approval.
Collins became emotional as she recounted the response from the-then DHS deputy secretary, Malisa Golightly, saying her boss berated her and threw her phone at her desk.
“My recollection is for about the next hour screamed at me irrationally, is the only way I could describe it,” Collins told the hearing.
As the scheme was exploding in controversy in December 2016, Collins claims she made a change that meant debts were not automatically issued using income averaging where welfare recipients did not respond.
—-
Collins said in her statement that in January 2017 she also proposed the department switch off the entire program. She said Golightly responding by calling her an “idiot” and an “imbecile”. She also claimed her job was threatened. Collins told the commission she now felt “embarrassed” she never made a formal complaint about Golightly.
“I didn’t make a complaint about Ms Golightly’s behaviour at the time,” she said. “It’s something I feel embarrassed about.”
—-
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/03/robodebt-inquiry-hears-public-servants-claims-she-was-screamed-at-irrationally-after-querying-scheme
There are a good number of people in this world who walk around looking and actingike they’re human but they’re not. They’re dangerous, simple, individuals.
Bleddy barsters, the lot of them.
Stuart Robert’s refusal to take the blame for robodebt isn’t just offensive, it’s terrifying
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/mar/04/stuart-roberts-refusal-to-take-the-blame-for-robodebt-isnt-just-offensive-its-terrifying
DHS management and L/NP govt, 2016 – 2020:
Robodebt came about because people living in highly disadvantaged circumstances did what the government asked of them: they tried to get work, rather than just relying on government income support.
—-
By contrast, Professor Leon — who is now vice chancellor of Charles Sturt University and president of the Institute for Public Administration Australia — was sacked in December 2019, a month after she advised Stuart Robert that she would be closing the Robodebt scheme because it was unlawful.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-04/robodebt-royal-commission-public-service-culture-must-change/102051718
The Robodebt royal commission this week heard from senior ministers and bureaucrats involved in the debt recovery program, but the toll on its victims has been laid bare in now-public submissions.
—-
One of the case studies referenced was a single mother in her 40s who was told she had a $12,000 debt.
The mother of three, Shirley, received a carer’s pension because one of her daughters, who has an intellectual disability and global development delay, requires constant care.
The southern Queensland branch of Anglicare had been supporting Shirley dealing with anxiety and depression for two years when Centrelink suddenly called at 5pm on a Thursday evening to inform her the carer’s pension she was expecting to receive the next day was suspended and she owed $12,000.
“I panicked and was confused,” Shirley is quoted as saying in the submission.
“I was trying to talk to them and I said, ‘You can’t just cut me off; how am I supposed to support my kids and myself? I will have no money there to cover my bills this week’.
“All she could say was, ‘Go to the Salvation Army and get food orders and ask relatives and friends to help you until you get your Newstart approved’.
—-
Another Anglicare frontline worker in southern Queensland was quoted about her experience helping one young man repay his debt at $60 a fortnight.
“He says it’s not affordable, so I have tried to go in and speak to them and ask for it to be reduced to $40 per fortnight, which is more manageable, but they told me to do it online,” the submission said.
The Robodebt royal commission, explained
“I go online, and it says contact your local Centrelink. So it’s this cycle. We sit down, look at the online site, fill out all the details, and then it says, ‘We cannot process your claim; go to your local Centrelink’.
“He had been in twice and tried online once by that point. He waited on hold on the phone for half an hour, and then the phone hung up. So he gave up and came to see me about it.”
—-
In its submission, Anglicare Australia reported a 98-year-old woman, who was blind, received a letter saying she owed $3,000 and called one of the service’s Tasmanian-based financial officers in distress.
“A widowed client in her 90s called in tears saying, ‘I don’t have any money, I don’t have anything to sell. I can’t pay this bill. Do you think I should sell my couch? How much do you think I would get for it?’” the submission said.
—-
One of their clients, Isabella (not her real name), was experiencing the ongoing impacts of post-traumatic stress disorder from family violence and living day-to-day when she was asked to repay a Centrelink debt.
Isabella told Victoria Legal Aid she was working different casual jobs on-and-off and had irregular income, and was unable to get previous payslips due to the length of time since she had worked at the businesses and because she was couch surfing and sleeping rough.
“You don’t carry around all your paperwork when you are homeless,” she said.
—-]
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-04/robodebt-royal-commission-written-submissions-victims/102052238
sarahs mum said:
The Robodebt royal commission this week heard from senior ministers and bureaucrats involved in the debt recovery program, but the toll on its victims has been laid bare in now-public submissions.
—-
One of the case studies referenced was a single mother in her 40s who was told she had a $12,000 debt.The mother of three, Shirley, received a carer’s pension because one of her daughters, who has an intellectual disability and global development delay, requires constant care.
The southern Queensland branch of Anglicare had been supporting Shirley dealing with anxiety and depression for two years when Centrelink suddenly called at 5pm on a Thursday evening to inform her the carer’s pension she was expecting to receive the next day was suspended and she owed $12,000.
“I panicked and was confused,” Shirley is quoted as saying in the submission.
“I was trying to talk to them and I said, ‘You can’t just cut me off; how am I supposed to support my kids and myself? I will have no money there to cover my bills this week’.
“All she could say was, ‘Go to the Salvation Army and get food orders and ask relatives and friends to help you until you get your Newstart approved’.
—-
Another Anglicare frontline worker in southern Queensland was quoted about her experience helping one young man repay his debt at $60 a fortnight.“He says it’s not affordable, so I have tried to go in and speak to them and ask for it to be reduced to $40 per fortnight, which is more manageable, but they told me to do it online,” the submission said.
The Robodebt royal commission, explained“I go online, and it says contact your local Centrelink. So it’s this cycle. We sit down, look at the online site, fill out all the details, and then it says, ‘We cannot process your claim; go to your local Centrelink’.
“He had been in twice and tried online once by that point. He waited on hold on the phone for half an hour, and then the phone hung up. So he gave up and came to see me about it.”
—-In its submission, Anglicare Australia reported a 98-year-old woman, who was blind, received a letter saying she owed $3,000 and called one of the service’s Tasmanian-based financial officers in distress.
“A widowed client in her 90s called in tears saying, ‘I don’t have any money, I don’t have anything to sell. I can’t pay this bill. Do you think I should sell my couch? How much do you think I would get for it?’” the submission said.
—-One of their clients, Isabella (not her real name), was experiencing the ongoing impacts of post-traumatic stress disorder from family violence and living day-to-day when she was asked to repay a Centrelink debt.
Isabella told Victoria Legal Aid she was working different casual jobs on-and-off and had irregular income, and was unable to get previous payslips due to the length of time since she had worked at the businesses and because she was couch surfing and sleeping rough.
“You don’t carry around all your paperwork when you are homeless,” she said.
—-]
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-04/robodebt-royal-commission-written-submissions-victims/102052238
bring back social security.
this shit is not social and it is not secure.
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
The Robodebt royal commission this week heard from senior ministers and bureaucrats involved in the debt recovery program, but the toll on its victims has been laid bare in now-public submissions.
—-
One of the case studies referenced was a single mother in her 40s who was told she had a $12,000 debt.The mother of three, Shirley, received a carer’s pension because one of her daughters, who has an intellectual disability and global development delay, requires constant care.
The southern Queensland branch of Anglicare had been supporting Shirley dealing with anxiety and depression for two years when Centrelink suddenly called at 5pm on a Thursday evening to inform her the carer’s pension she was expecting to receive the next day was suspended and she owed $12,000.
“I panicked and was confused,” Shirley is quoted as saying in the submission.
“I was trying to talk to them and I said, ‘You can’t just cut me off; how am I supposed to support my kids and myself? I will have no money there to cover my bills this week’.
“All she could say was, ‘Go to the Salvation Army and get food orders and ask relatives and friends to help you until you get your Newstart approved’.
—-
Another Anglicare frontline worker in southern Queensland was quoted about her experience helping one young man repay his debt at $60 a fortnight.“He says it’s not affordable, so I have tried to go in and speak to them and ask for it to be reduced to $40 per fortnight, which is more manageable, but they told me to do it online,” the submission said.
The Robodebt royal commission, explained“I go online, and it says contact your local Centrelink. So it’s this cycle. We sit down, look at the online site, fill out all the details, and then it says, ‘We cannot process your claim; go to your local Centrelink’.
“He had been in twice and tried online once by that point. He waited on hold on the phone for half an hour, and then the phone hung up. So he gave up and came to see me about it.”
—-In its submission, Anglicare Australia reported a 98-year-old woman, who was blind, received a letter saying she owed $3,000 and called one of the service’s Tasmanian-based financial officers in distress.
“A widowed client in her 90s called in tears saying, ‘I don’t have any money, I don’t have anything to sell. I can’t pay this bill. Do you think I should sell my couch? How much do you think I would get for it?’” the submission said.
—-One of their clients, Isabella (not her real name), was experiencing the ongoing impacts of post-traumatic stress disorder from family violence and living day-to-day when she was asked to repay a Centrelink debt.
Isabella told Victoria Legal Aid she was working different casual jobs on-and-off and had irregular income, and was unable to get previous payslips due to the length of time since she had worked at the businesses and because she was couch surfing and sleeping rough.
“You don’t carry around all your paperwork when you are homeless,” she said.
—-]
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-04/robodebt-royal-commission-written-submissions-victims/102052238bring back social security.
this shit is not social and it is not secure.
Nothing is secure while money means more than people.
sarahs mum said:
The Robodebt royal commission this week heard from senior ministers and bureaucrats involved in the debt recovery program, but the toll on its victims has been laid bare in now-public submissions.
—-
One of the case studies referenced was a single mother in her 40s who was told she had a $12,000 debt.The mother of three, Shirley, received a carer’s pension because one of her daughters, who has an intellectual disability and global development delay, requires constant care.
The southern Queensland branch of Anglicare had been supporting Shirley dealing with anxiety and depression for two years when Centrelink suddenly called at 5pm on a Thursday evening to inform her the carer’s pension she was expecting to receive the next day was suspended and she owed $12,000.
“I panicked and was confused,” Shirley is quoted as saying in the submission.
“I was trying to talk to them and I said, ‘You can’t just cut me off; how am I supposed to support my kids and myself? I will have no money there to cover my bills this week’.
“All she could say was, ‘Go to the Salvation Army and get food orders and ask relatives and friends to help you until you get your Newstart approved’.
—-
Another Anglicare frontline worker in southern Queensland was quoted about her experience helping one young man repay his debt at $60 a fortnight.“He says it’s not affordable, so I have tried to go in and speak to them and ask for it to be reduced to $40 per fortnight, which is more manageable, but they told me to do it online,” the submission said.
The Robodebt royal commission, explained“I go online, and it says contact your local Centrelink. So it’s this cycle. We sit down, look at the online site, fill out all the details, and then it says, ‘We cannot process your claim; go to your local Centrelink’.
“He had been in twice and tried online once by that point. He waited on hold on the phone for half an hour, and then the phone hung up. So he gave up and came to see me about it.”
—-In its submission, Anglicare Australia reported a 98-year-old woman, who was blind, received a letter saying she owed $3,000 and called one of the service’s Tasmanian-based financial officers in distress.
“A widowed client in her 90s called in tears saying, ‘I don’t have any money, I don’t have anything to sell. I can’t pay this bill. Do you think I should sell my couch? How much do you think I would get for it?’” the submission said.
—-One of their clients, Isabella (not her real name), was experiencing the ongoing impacts of post-traumatic stress disorder from family violence and living day-to-day when she was asked to repay a Centrelink debt.
Isabella told Victoria Legal Aid she was working different casual jobs on-and-off and had irregular income, and was unable to get previous payslips due to the length of time since she had worked at the businesses and because she was couch surfing and sleeping rough.
“You don’t carry around all your paperwork when you are homeless,” she said.
—-]
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-04/robodebt-royal-commission-written-submissions-victims/102052238
:-(
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
The Robodebt royal commission this week heard from senior ministers and bureaucrats involved in the debt recovery program, but the toll on its victims has been laid bare in now-public submissions.
—-
One of the case studies referenced was a single mother in her 40s who was told she had a $12,000 debt.The mother of three, Shirley, received a carer’s pension because one of her daughters, who has an intellectual disability and global development delay, requires constant care.
The southern Queensland branch of Anglicare had been supporting Shirley dealing with anxiety and depression for two years when Centrelink suddenly called at 5pm on a Thursday evening to inform her the carer’s pension she was expecting to receive the next day was suspended and she owed $12,000.
“I panicked and was confused,” Shirley is quoted as saying in the submission.
“I was trying to talk to them and I said, ‘You can’t just cut me off; how am I supposed to support my kids and myself? I will have no money there to cover my bills this week’.
“All she could say was, ‘Go to the Salvation Army and get food orders and ask relatives and friends to help you until you get your Newstart approved’.
—-
Another Anglicare frontline worker in southern Queensland was quoted about her experience helping one young man repay his debt at $60 a fortnight.“He says it’s not affordable, so I have tried to go in and speak to them and ask for it to be reduced to $40 per fortnight, which is more manageable, but they told me to do it online,” the submission said.
The Robodebt royal commission, explained“I go online, and it says contact your local Centrelink. So it’s this cycle. We sit down, look at the online site, fill out all the details, and then it says, ‘We cannot process your claim; go to your local Centrelink’.
“He had been in twice and tried online once by that point. He waited on hold on the phone for half an hour, and then the phone hung up. So he gave up and came to see me about it.”
—-In its submission, Anglicare Australia reported a 98-year-old woman, who was blind, received a letter saying she owed $3,000 and called one of the service’s Tasmanian-based financial officers in distress.
“A widowed client in her 90s called in tears saying, ‘I don’t have any money, I don’t have anything to sell. I can’t pay this bill. Do you think I should sell my couch? How much do you think I would get for it?’” the submission said.
—-One of their clients, Isabella (not her real name), was experiencing the ongoing impacts of post-traumatic stress disorder from family violence and living day-to-day when she was asked to repay a Centrelink debt.
Isabella told Victoria Legal Aid she was working different casual jobs on-and-off and had irregular income, and was unable to get previous payslips due to the length of time since she had worked at the businesses and because she was couch surfing and sleeping rough.
“You don’t carry around all your paperwork when you are homeless,” she said.
—-]
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-04/robodebt-royal-commission-written-submissions-victims/102052238bring back social security.
this shit is not social and it is not secure.
Nothing is secure while money means more than people.
The more they try to privatise it, the worse it will get!
sarahs mum said:
From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
roughbarked said:
From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
As i’ve saiod before, Centrelink frontline staff often have a good nose for a bullshit ‘initiative’ from above, don’t enjoy implementing it one bit, but can do only as ordered (yes, they do have an actual obligation to follow any legitimate instruction from their superiors).
I helped Centrelink do some things that i thought were on the nose, and i said that they were. I could say that, but it made no difference at all.
I could have resigned, but, in a town where unemployment was running at twice the national average, the prospects of continuing to support my home and family didn’t look good.
Maybe they were the worst things i’ve ever done. Probably not, but they were a long way down the list from the best things.
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
As i’ve saiod before, Centrelink frontline staff often have a good nose for a bullshit ‘initiative’ from above, don’t enjoy implementing it one bit, but can do only as ordered (yes, they do have an actual obligation to follow any legitimate instruction from their superiors).
I helped Centrelink do some things that i thought were on the nose, and i said that they were. I could say that, but it made no difference at all.
I could have resigned, but, in a town where unemployment was running at twice the national average, the prospects of continuing to support my home and family didn’t look good.
Maybe they were the worst things i’ve ever done. Probably not, but they were a long way down the list from the best things.
Don’t beat yourself up over it. The problem was upstairs of your position and still is.
sarahs mum said:
Face loss has happened anyway.
Turnbull has been excused
3m ago
By Jessica Riga
Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has been excused by the Robodebt royal commission.
Share post
Commissoner shuts down notion evidence has been ‘redacted’
4m ago
By Jessica Riga
Malcolm Turnbull mentioned the evidence has been redacted, and was promptly told the opposite by Commissioner Catherine Holmes.
“Nothing about the Robodebt scheme has been redacted, I can assure you,” she says.Share post
Turnbull did not consider ‘legality’ of Robodebt
9m ago
By Jessica Riga
Key Event
Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has been grilled about his knowledge of the Robodebt scheme while he was in the top job between 2015 and 2018.
“Look, I did not turn my mind to the legality of the program. It never occured to us that it was unauthorised,” he told the commission. “Because we assumed that was as it had been represented.”sarahs mum said:
Turnbull did not consider ‘legality’ of Robodebt
9m agoBy Jessica Riga
Key EventFormer prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has been grilled about his knowledge of the Robodebt scheme while he was in the top job between 2015 and 2018.
“Look, I did not turn my mind to the legality of the program. It never occured to us that it was unauthorised,” he told the commission. “Because we assumed that was as it had been represented.”
They could all see the Emperor’s new clothes quite clearly.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:Turnbull did not consider ‘legality’ of Robodebt
9m agoBy Jessica Riga
Key EventFormer prime minister Malcolm Turnbull has been grilled about his knowledge of the Robodebt scheme while he was in the top job between 2015 and 2018.
“Look, I did not turn my mind to the legality of the program. It never occured to us that it was unauthorised,” he told the commission. “Because we assumed that was as it had been represented.”They could all see the Emperor’s new clothes quite clearly.
I wonder why they thought nobody else would notice?
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
The ATO only requires records be kept by individuals for 5 years and won’t audit events that occurred before that. Was Centrelink going back even further?
Kothos said:
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
The ATO only requires records be kept by individuals for 5 years and won’t audit events that occurred before that. Was Centrelink going back even further?
Not in my case but maybe for others.
sarahs mum said:
Didn’t he like Shetler? He was the one who recruited him.
Kothos said:
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
The ATO only requires records be kept by individuals for 5 years and won’t audit events that occurred before that. Was Centrelink going back even further?
yes. that was a thing pisses me off. All my life i was told I only had to keep 7 years of records. And they wanted to dredge past that.
sarahs mum said:
Kothos said:
roughbarked said:From the beginning, Centerlink told me it was their mistake but that I’d have to pay for it.
The ATO only requires records be kept by individuals for 5 years and won’t audit events that occurred before that. Was Centrelink going back even further?
yes. that was a thing pisses me off. All my life i was told I only had to keep 7 years of records. And they wanted to dredge past that.
I don’t understand. That should clearly be illegal. And yes it used to be 7 years a long time ago.
Kothos said:
sarahs mum said:
Kothos said:The ATO only requires records be kept by individuals for 5 years and won’t audit events that occurred before that. Was Centrelink going back even further?
yes. that was a thing pisses me off. All my life i was told I only had to keep 7 years of records. And they wanted to dredge past that.
I don’t understand. That should clearly be illegal. And yes it used to be 7 years a long time ago.
Even Centrelink would discard records that haven’t been touched for 7 + years.
I know: i filled so many locked secure-disposal wheelie bins with them.
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:
sarahs mum said:yes. that was a thing pisses me off. All my life i was told I only had to keep 7 years of records. And they wanted to dredge past that.
I don’t understand. That should clearly be illegal. And yes it used to be 7 years a long time ago.
Even Centrelink would discard records that haven’t been touched for 7 + years.
I know: i filled so many locked secure-disposal wheelie bins with them.
So double standards as well then.
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:I don’t understand. That should clearly be illegal. And yes it used to be 7 years a long time ago.
Even Centrelink would discard records that haven’t been touched for 7 + years.
I know: i filled so many locked secure-disposal wheelie bins with them.
So double standards as well then.
You can be sure that a lot of Centrelink staff commented on it.
‘Why do i have to ask them for records that old? For f***‘s sake, even we don’t keep records over 7 years old!’
captain_spalding said:
Kothos said:
captain_spalding said:Even Centrelink would discard records that haven’t been touched for 7 + years.
I know: i filled so many locked secure-disposal wheelie bins with them.
So double standards as well then.
You can be sure that a lot of Centrelink staff commented on it.
‘Why do i have to ask them for records that old? For f***‘s sake, even we don’t keep records over 7 years old!’
From my own experiences I can well imagine that fell on the deaf ears of layered bureaucracy,
kii said:
Iontach! Brilliant!
kii said:
A pack of thieving bastards.
roughbarked said:
kii said:
A pack of thieving bastards.
It’s their own fault.
They hadn’t put in enough prepatory groundwork, and demonised the victims sufficiently.
If News Ltd/Fox and similar had been properly employed as preliminary artillery, no-one would have had any sympathy for the targets.
roughbarked said:
kii said:
A pack of thieving bastards.
Stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.
Stats on Matt were 20 jobs. 28 years below poverty level. And as you look at the other victims you find much the same theme. Sometimes with dependents where they get to stuff multiple lives with one notice.
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
kii said:
A pack of thieving bastards.
Stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.
Stats on Matt were 20 jobs. 28 years below poverty level. And as you look at the other victims you find much the same theme. Sometimes with dependents where they get to stuff multiple lives with one notice.
And ensuring intergenerational poverty.
captain_spalding said:
roughbarked said:
kii said:
A pack of thieving bastards.
It’s their own fault.
They hadn’t put in enough prepatory groundwork, and demonised the victims sufficiently.
If News Ltd/Fox and similar had been properly employed as preliminary artillery, no-one would have had any sympathy for the targets.
Good twist!
Though I think the MSM does demonise those that struggle with disability and those who are under employed or unemployed.
A former investigator from the commonwealth ombudsman’s office broke down as she told a royal commission she feels like a “failure” because she could not convince her superiors to publish her legal criticisms of the robodebt scheme.
The commission is seeking to understand the role of the commonwealth ombudsman, whose report identified a number of process flaws in the scheme but stopped short of declaring the “income averaging” debt calculation process unlawful. The report was used by the Coalition to defend the scheme over several years.
The lead investigator, the former senior assistant ombudsman Louise Macleod, became emotional on the stand when she was shown internal Department of Human Services (DHS) emails showing a huge proportion of debts being raised under the program used “income averaging” – now known to be unlawful.“I find it upsetting,” Macleod said.
The data was among several crucial pieces of information Macleod said were not provided to the ombudsman during the course of its investigation.
The hearing was paused while Macleod composed herself, before the commissioner, Catherine Holmes, asked the witness about her response to the material.
“I suppose I feel like a failure,” Macleod said.
Holmes replied: “Why should you feel like a failure when you clearly raised a lot of important issues that just weren’t taken up?”
Macleod said: “Because I couldn’t convince others.”
Macleod gave evidence that officials from the ombudsman’s office believed the scheme was legally questionable and had drafted versions of the report that included strong criticisms of the program.
The passages, shown to the commission, included direct criticisms of the inaccuracy of income averaging and a suggestion the legality of the method was uncertain and best determined by the courts.
Responding to the legal advice provided by the Department of Social Services, emails shown to the commission saw one ombudsman’s official remark during the investigation: “I could drive a truck through the holes in this advice.”
Holmes later remarked of the legal advice: “You could drive a convoy through that rationalisation.”
But Macleod alleged the acting ombudsman at the time, Richard Glenn, decided the highly critical sections on income averaging and legality would not be included in the final version of the report. Glenn will give evidence on Thursday.
Macleod said the ombudsman’s office had also considered using its powers to refer the matter to the administrative appeals tribunal, but the decision was ultimately never taken.
She suggested the office was uneasy about taking on a commonwealth department in a legal setting.
While giving evidence, Macleod was shown multiple documents, including emails flagging the scheme was potentially illegal, that she had never seen before.
Macleod said the documents had not been provided to her office by DHS during the investigation.
“It annoys the hell out of me and it’s really disappointing,” she said.
“This demonstrates weren’t participating in good faith.”
Macleod said all departments investigated by the ombudsman were expected to be forthcoming with relevant information and it was an offence not to provide it.
more
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/08/department-withheld-key-documents-from-watchdog-that-flagged-potential-illegality-of-robodebt
Robodebt royal commission hears former ombudsman who investigated the scheme allowed DHS to amend wording of report
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-09/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-ombudsman-legal/102027836
sarahs mum said:
Robodebt royal commission hears former ombudsman who investigated the scheme allowed DHS to amend wording of reporthttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-09/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-ombudsman-legal/102027836
and the plot thickens.
i talked to Matt today. he said the robodebt he is paying back atm was from 9 years before. The other 10k he could prove and this one he could not because it was so long ago.
——
>>
Here was Bill Shorten’s summary, delivered in question time, of some of what the commission has heard:
Analysis of data provided to the royal commission into Robodebt reveals that a majority of Robodebt victims were women. In fact, at least 226,780 Australian women were served unlawful debt notices over four and a half years by the former Coalition government. These are their stories.
Angelica. Angelica says that soon after she had a Robodebt raised against her, she had to deal with the grief of her father passing away. She says she didn’t have money in the bank and had her daughter to think of. “My depression became very bad while dealing with the Robodebt. I wanted to kill myself. I started drinking heavily, a couple of bottles of wine each day causing liver problems. I had to go to hospital and my doctor wasn’t happy with me. I started seeing a psychologist. To this day, I still get anxiety when I think about my Robodebt. The government should care about people who are struggling. People who have depression or money troubles. They shouldn’t make their lives worse.”
Then there’s Isabella. She received a Robodebt at a particularly difficult point in her life. “I was living day to day when I was hit with a Robodebt. I was homeless due to fleeing from family violence. What little money I was receiving from Centrelink payments went towards my food and my medication. Then one day there was less money in my account than I was expecting for my Newstart allowance, I thought it had been a mistake. I called Centrelink. I was not met with concern for my wellbeing. They told me I had a debt and needed to prove I didn’t owe money.”
In a submission to the royal commission by a woman who wishes to remain anonymous, she explains how she was a young, single parent working when she received her Robodebt. “I cried myself to sleep for two weeks thinking about where my daughter would go if I went to jail. I contacted her father for help financially after never receiving child support from him while she was fully in my care. He then decided to take me to court and obtain shared custody of my daughter. Robodebt caused myself depression, anxiety and financial stress, which resulted in me having my daughter taken from my full care. To say Robodebt ruined my life is a complete understatement”.
These are stories that were never heard by the Coalition when they were in government. Like a lot of members on this side, I’ve represented people who’ve been injured at work. Compensation is important. It’s expected, but it’s never the full story. Accountability matters to the royal commission cannot reverse the pain of these three brave witnesses. It can’t bring back loved ones, but it can make sure that those who did the wrong thing answer for it. It can. And it must make sure that no government ever unlawfully bullies vulnerable Australians ever.
i talked to Matt today. he said the robodebt he is paying back atm was from 9 years before. The other 10k he could prove and this one he could not because it was so long ago.
——
He told them ‘to the best of my knowledge. they never proved he owed it. He just couldn’t prove he did not.
sarahs mum said:
i talked to Matt today. he said the robodebt he is paying back atm was from 9 years before. The other 10k he could prove and this one he could not because it was so long ago.——
>>
Here was Bill Shorten’s summary, delivered in question time, of some of what the commission has heard:Analysis of data provided to the royal commission into Robodebt reveals that a majority of Robodebt victims were women. In fact, at least 226,780 Australian women were served unlawful debt notices over four and a half years by the former Coalition government. These are their stories.
Angelica. Angelica says that soon after she had a Robodebt raised against her, she had to deal with the grief of her father passing away. She says she didn’t have money in the bank and had her daughter to think of. “My depression became very bad while dealing with the Robodebt. I wanted to kill myself. I started drinking heavily, a couple of bottles of wine each day causing liver problems. I had to go to hospital and my doctor wasn’t happy with me. I started seeing a psychologist. To this day, I still get anxiety when I think about my Robodebt. The government should care about people who are struggling. People who have depression or money troubles. They shouldn’t make their lives worse.”
Then there’s Isabella. She received a Robodebt at a particularly difficult point in her life. “I was living day to day when I was hit with a Robodebt. I was homeless due to fleeing from family violence. What little money I was receiving from Centrelink payments went towards my food and my medication. Then one day there was less money in my account than I was expecting for my Newstart allowance, I thought it had been a mistake. I called Centrelink. I was not met with concern for my wellbeing. They told me I had a debt and needed to prove I didn’t owe money.”
In a submission to the royal commission by a woman who wishes to remain anonymous, she explains how she was a young, single parent working when she received her Robodebt. “I cried myself to sleep for two weeks thinking about where my daughter would go if I went to jail. I contacted her father for help financially after never receiving child support from him while she was fully in my care. He then decided to take me to court and obtain shared custody of my daughter. Robodebt caused myself depression, anxiety and financial stress, which resulted in me having my daughter taken from my full care. To say Robodebt ruined my life is a complete understatement”.
These are stories that were never heard by the Coalition when they were in government. Like a lot of members on this side, I’ve represented people who’ve been injured at work. Compensation is important. It’s expected, but it’s never the full story. Accountability matters to the royal commission cannot reverse the pain of these three brave witnesses. It can’t bring back loved ones, but it can make sure that those who did the wrong thing answer for it. It can. And it must make sure that no government ever unlawfully bullies vulnerable Australians ever.
That’s a fucking load of shit. If the government told me to prove anything from more than 5 years ago is be getting a lawyer.
About one year before he died, Jarrad had left his job after being bullied at work.
He’d became homeless and had no income after battling with Centrelink to receive welfare payments after he accidentally uploaded the wrong document on his application.
He had a brief history of mental illness years earlier, but things became more difficult for Jarrad after he moved home to the Sunshine Coast, in part due to his dealings with Centrelink, the inquiry heard.
Letter to Scott Morrison went unanswered
After sitting through much of the nine weeks of public hearings, Ms Madgwick said she had finally been able to piece together what had been going on behind the scenes prior to her son’s death – including that he never spoke to an actual person about his debt and was only notified online.
She recounted to the inquiry how her son walked out of his bedroom and told her: “I’m not going to get paid because I owe them $2,000”.
“He was very distressed,” Ms Madgwick recalled.
“It was hard for me to settle him down and after that, things progressed.”
Jarrad left the house that same night and didn’t come back, the inquiry heard.
Ms Madgwick said after Jarrad’s death she wrote to then prime minister Scott Morrison in an effort to try and get some answers but received no response.
“Not even a sorry for your loss,” she told the royal commission.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/102027838
sarahs mum said:
About one year before he died, Jarrad had left his job after being bullied at work.He’d became homeless and had no income after battling with Centrelink to receive welfare payments after he accidentally uploaded the wrong document on his application.
He had a brief history of mental illness years earlier, but things became more difficult for Jarrad after he moved home to the Sunshine Coast, in part due to his dealings with Centrelink, the inquiry heard.
Letter to Scott Morrison went unansweredAfter sitting through much of the nine weeks of public hearings, Ms Madgwick said she had finally been able to piece together what had been going on behind the scenes prior to her son’s death – including that he never spoke to an actual person about his debt and was only notified online.
She recounted to the inquiry how her son walked out of his bedroom and told her: “I’m not going to get paid because I owe them $2,000”.
“He was very distressed,” Ms Madgwick recalled.
“It was hard for me to settle him down and after that, things progressed.”
Jarrad left the house that same night and didn’t come back, the inquiry heard.
Ms Madgwick said after Jarrad’s death she wrote to then prime minister Scott Morrison in an effort to try and get some answers but received no response.
“Not even a sorry for your loss,” she told the royal commission.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/102027838
He was busy with his many ministries, not to mention showing the Hillsong people how to manage their finances.
They told me it was their mistake but I had to pay it back. Then later it must have been robodebt. They asked me for about $1200 in two separate requests. I showed them my documents when I paid up. They gave me $385 back. Then from the $1.2B settlement fund, I got $78 which apparently was interest. Interest on what? Anyway, I didn’t slit my wrists over it.
roughbarked said:
They told me it was their mistake but I had to pay it back. Then later it must have been robodebt. They asked me for about $1200 in two separate requests. I showed them my documents when I paid up. They gave me $385 back. Then from the $1.2B settlement fund, I got $78 which apparently was interest. Interest on what? Anyway, I didn’t slit my wrists over it.
right but did you slit anyone else’s throat, not everyone’s altruistic like the liberal girls who are harming themselves because of mobile telephones and university wokeness
SCIENCE said:
roughbarked said:
They told me it was their mistake but I had to pay it back. Then later it must have been robodebt. They asked me for about $1200 in two separate requests. I showed them my documents when I paid up. They gave me $385 back. Then from the $1.2B settlement fund, I got $78 which apparently was interest. Interest on what? Anyway, I didn’t slit my wrists over it.
right but did you slit anyone else’s throat, not everyone’s altruistic like the liberal girls who are harming themselves because of mobile telephones and university wokeness
Mate, I’m harmless unless you threaten my life. That’s not something you’d want to try.
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
About one year before he died, Jarrad had left his job after being bullied at work.He’d became homeless and had no income after battling with Centrelink to receive welfare payments after he accidentally uploaded the wrong document on his application.
He had a brief history of mental illness years earlier, but things became more difficult for Jarrad after he moved home to the Sunshine Coast, in part due to his dealings with Centrelink, the inquiry heard.
Letter to Scott Morrison went unansweredAfter sitting through much of the nine weeks of public hearings, Ms Madgwick said she had finally been able to piece together what had been going on behind the scenes prior to her son’s death – including that he never spoke to an actual person about his debt and was only notified online.
She recounted to the inquiry how her son walked out of his bedroom and told her: “I’m not going to get paid because I owe them $2,000”.
“He was very distressed,” Ms Madgwick recalled.
“It was hard for me to settle him down and after that, things progressed.”
Jarrad left the house that same night and didn’t come back, the inquiry heard.
Ms Madgwick said after Jarrad’s death she wrote to then prime minister Scott Morrison in an effort to try and get some answers but received no response.
“Not even a sorry for your loss,” she told the royal commission.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/102027838
He was busy with his many ministries, not to mention showing the Hillsong people how to manage their finances.
Matt had managed to prove most of his debts were false. Then one day it was if you don’t arrange payment of the rest of it by tomorrow we will take it out of your payments and you won’t receive anything for two months. I can’t get over how much bullying that is. How unsocial.
and even after going and laying it all out to the commission he is being told that because he agreed to it there is little they can do. So fn abusive.
tother day he told me of all the drugs he took before fronting the royal commission. I said that I wouldn’t have been able to move if I had taken all that. he said ‘yeah, but anxiety…’
roughbarked said:
They told me it was their mistake but I had to pay it back. Then later it must have been robodebt. They asked me for about $1200 in two separate requests. I showed them my documents when I paid up. They gave me $385 back. Then from the $1.2B settlement fund, I got $78 which apparently was interest. Interest on what? Anyway, I didn’t slit my wrists over it.
yeah. like that is fair.
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
roughbarked said:
They told me it was their mistake but I had to pay it back. Then later it must have been robodebt. They asked me for about $1200 in two separate requests. I showed them my documents when I paid up. They gave me $385 back. Then from the $1.2B settlement fund, I got $78 which apparently was interest. Interest on what? Anyway, I didn’t slit my wrists over it.
right but did you slit anyone else’s throat, not everyone’s altruistic like the liberal girls who are harming themselves because of mobile telephones and university wokeness
Mate, I’m harmless unless you threaten my life. That’s not something you’d want to try.
well, we’re waiting to see it, them proCOVID propagandists are increasing the life threat to everyone still, what are you going to do about it
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
About one year before he died, Jarrad had left his job after being bullied at work.He’d became homeless and had no income after battling with Centrelink to receive welfare payments after he accidentally uploaded the wrong document on his application.
He had a brief history of mental illness years earlier, but things became more difficult for Jarrad after he moved home to the Sunshine Coast, in part due to his dealings with Centrelink, the inquiry heard.
Letter to Scott Morrison went unansweredAfter sitting through much of the nine weeks of public hearings, Ms Madgwick said she had finally been able to piece together what had been going on behind the scenes prior to her son’s death – including that he never spoke to an actual person about his debt and was only notified online.
She recounted to the inquiry how her son walked out of his bedroom and told her: “I’m not going to get paid because I owe them $2,000”.
“He was very distressed,” Ms Madgwick recalled.
“It was hard for me to settle him down and after that, things progressed.”
Jarrad left the house that same night and didn’t come back, the inquiry heard.
Ms Madgwick said after Jarrad’s death she wrote to then prime minister Scott Morrison in an effort to try and get some answers but received no response.
“Not even a sorry for your loss,” she told the royal commission.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/102027838
He was busy with his many ministries, not to mention showing the Hillsong people how to manage their finances.
Matt had managed to prove most of his debts were false. Then one day it was if you don’t arrange payment of the rest of it by tomorrow we will take it out of your payments and you won’t receive anything for two months. I can’t get over how much bullying that is. How unsocial.
and even after going and laying it all out to the commission he is being told that because he agreed to it there is little they can do. So fn abusive.
tother day he told me of all the drugs he took before fronting the royal commission. I said that I wouldn’t have been able to move if I had taken all that. he said ‘yeah, but anxiety…’
I didn’t let them harrass me more than they wanted to. It was lucky that I’d declared everything honestly and that because I was working part time and hoarding the cash, I could rid myself of the debt.
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
sarahs mum said:
About one year before he died, Jarrad had left his job after being bullied at work.He’d became homeless and had no income after battling with Centrelink to receive welfare payments after he accidentally uploaded the wrong document on his application.
He had a brief history of mental illness years earlier, but things became more difficult for Jarrad after he moved home to the Sunshine Coast, in part due to his dealings with Centrelink, the inquiry heard.
Letter to Scott Morrison went unansweredAfter sitting through much of the nine weeks of public hearings, Ms Madgwick said she had finally been able to piece together what had been going on behind the scenes prior to her son’s death – including that he never spoke to an actual person about his debt and was only notified online.
She recounted to the inquiry how her son walked out of his bedroom and told her: “I’m not going to get paid because I owe them $2,000”.
“He was very distressed,” Ms Madgwick recalled.
“It was hard for me to settle him down and after that, things progressed.”
Jarrad left the house that same night and didn’t come back, the inquiry heard.
Ms Madgwick said after Jarrad’s death she wrote to then prime minister Scott Morrison in an effort to try and get some answers but received no response.
“Not even a sorry for your loss,” she told the royal commission.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/102027838
He was busy with his many ministries, not to mention showing the Hillsong people how to manage their finances.
Matt had managed to prove most of his debts were false. Then one day it was if you don’t arrange payment of the rest of it by tomorrow we will take it out of your payments and you won’t receive anything for two months. I can’t get over how much bullying that is. How unsocial.
and even after going and laying it all out to the commission he is being told that because he agreed to it there is little they can do. So fn abusive.
tother day he told me of all the drugs he took before fronting the royal commission. I said that I wouldn’t have been able to move if I had taken all that. he said ‘yeah, but anxiety…’
is it valid though if an agreement is made under duress
SCIENCE said:
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
right but did you slit anyone else’s throat, not everyone’s altruistic like the liberal girls who are harming themselves because of mobile telephones and university wokeness
Mate, I’m harmless unless you threaten my life. That’s not something you’d want to try.
well, we’re waiting to see it, them proCOVID propagandists are increasing the life threat to everyone still, what are you going to do about it
I’m well armed. I carry a pack of those #95 masks.
SCIENCE said:
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:He was busy with his many ministries, not to mention showing the Hillsong people how to manage their finances.
Matt had managed to prove most of his debts were false. Then one day it was if you don’t arrange payment of the rest of it by tomorrow we will take it out of your payments and you won’t receive anything for two months. I can’t get over how much bullying that is. How unsocial.
and even after going and laying it all out to the commission he is being told that because he agreed to it there is little they can do. So fn abusive.
tother day he told me of all the drugs he took before fronting the royal commission. I said that I wouldn’t have been able to move if I had taken all that. he said ‘yeah, but anxiety…’
is it valid though if an agreement is made under duress
There is certainly a room for legal argument.
SCIENCE said:
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:He was busy with his many ministries, not to mention showing the Hillsong people how to manage their finances.
Matt had managed to prove most of his debts were false. Then one day it was if you don’t arrange payment of the rest of it by tomorrow we will take it out of your payments and you won’t receive anything for two months. I can’t get over how much bullying that is. How unsocial.
and even after going and laying it all out to the commission he is being told that because he agreed to it there is little they can do. So fn abusive.
tother day he told me of all the drugs he took before fronting the royal commission. I said that I wouldn’t have been able to move if I had taken all that. he said ‘yeah, but anxiety…’
is it valid though if an agreement is made under duress
Contracts signed can be disputed if you are under duress can’t they ?
Surprising Centrelink didn’t beat people with the old thick phone books to get them to admit if was their fault
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
roughbarked said:
Mate, I’m harmless unless you threaten my life. That’s not something you’d want to try.
well, we’re waiting to see it, them proCOVID propagandists are increasing the life threat to everyone still, what are you going to do about it
I’m well armed. I carry a pack of those #95 masks.
fair
Cymek said:
SCIENCE said:
sarahs mum said:Matt had managed to prove most of his debts were false. Then one day it was if you don’t arrange payment of the rest of it by tomorrow we will take it out of your payments and you won’t receive anything for two months. I can’t get over how much bullying that is. How unsocial.
and even after going and laying it all out to the commission he is being told that because he agreed to it there is little they can do. So fn abusive.
tother day he told me of all the drugs he took before fronting the royal commission. I said that I wouldn’t have been able to move if I had taken all that. he said ‘yeah, but anxiety…’
is it valid though if an agreement is made under duress
Contracts signed can be disputed if you are under duress can’t they ?
Surprising Centrelink didn’t beat people with the old thick phone books to get them to admit if was their fault
Through my contact with centrelink staff, I noted that they were under stress whenever I brought this subject up and personally fronted with my own documentation. One had to be relieved when she saw me coming. She asked another to handle me and pissed off out back of the office.
It wasn’t my BO. I can assure you of that.
SCIENCE said:
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
well, we’re waiting to see it, them proCOVID propagandists are increasing the life threat to everyone still, what are you going to do about it
I’m well armed. I carry a pack of those #95 masks.
fair
and I’ve had my 5th multi-strain booster.
sarahs mum said:
About one year before he died, Jarrad had left his job after being bullied at work.He’d became homeless and had no income after battling with Centrelink to receive welfare payments after he accidentally uploaded the wrong document on his application.
He had a brief history of mental illness years earlier, but things became more difficult for Jarrad after he moved home to the Sunshine Coast, in part due to his dealings with Centrelink, the inquiry heard.
Letter to Scott Morrison went unansweredAfter sitting through much of the nine weeks of public hearings, Ms Madgwick said she had finally been able to piece together what had been going on behind the scenes prior to her son’s death – including that he never spoke to an actual person about his debt and was only notified online.
She recounted to the inquiry how her son walked out of his bedroom and told her: “I’m not going to get paid because I owe them $2,000”.
“He was very distressed,” Ms Madgwick recalled.
“It was hard for me to settle him down and after that, things progressed.”
Jarrad left the house that same night and didn’t come back, the inquiry heard.
Ms Madgwick said after Jarrad’s death she wrote to then prime minister Scott Morrison in an effort to try and get some answers but received no response.
“Not even a sorry for your loss,” she told the royal commission.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-10/qld-robodebt-scheme-government-royal-commission-fraud/102027838
Well that’s because Morrison isn’t sorry for her loss. He’s probably Happy that the surplus population has been reduced.
It appears that Morrison was in at the beginning of the architects.
A pile of angst created.
A huge waste of taxpayers money and they appear to be going to get away with it.
Link
roughbarked said:
It appears that Morrison was in at the beginning of the architects.
A pile of angst created.
A huge waste of taxpayers money and they appear to be going to get away with it.
Link
So the blame will lie with the public service? Really? They didn’t start the shit.
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
It appears that Morrison was in at the beginning of the architects.
A pile of angst created.
A huge waste of taxpayers money and they appear to be going to get away with it.
Link
So the blame will lie with the public service? Really? They didn’t start the shit.
Probably not, but there’s some funny bunnies in the top floor offices in some departments. The have their own views of the world, and what the function of their department is or should be in that world.
As well, some are always on the lookout for opportunities to score brownie points with their current political ‘masters’, so if those masters seem to have a thing for scapegoating welfare recipients and rubbing the noses of ‘the poor’ in the dirt of their situation (“Fools! We’ll teach you to be impoverished!”), they might drop a few hints about some ways by which people in unprosperous circumstances can be victimised.
captain_spalding said:
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
It appears that Morrison was in at the beginning of the architects.
A pile of angst created.
A huge waste of taxpayers money and they appear to be going to get away with it.
Link
So the blame will lie with the public service? Really? They didn’t start the shit.
Probably not, but there’s some funny bunnies in the top floor offices in some departments. The have their own views of the world, and what the function of their department is or should be in that world.
As well, some are always on the lookout for opportunities to score brownie points with their current political ‘masters’, so if those masters seem to have a thing for scapegoating welfare recipients and rubbing the noses of ‘the poor’ in the dirt of their situation (“Fools! We’ll teach you to be impoverished!”), they might drop a few hints about some ways by which people in unprosperous circumstances can be victimised.
Yes I’ve been there an done that with them. People may have their own opinions despite whatever work culture.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/11/robodebt-five-years-of-lies-mistakes-and-failures-that-caused-a-18bn-scandal
Morrison had declared his desire to be the “welfare cop” in a series of interviews, starting with a Sky News interview on 21 January 2015.
*remembers back to when Morrison et al would not appear on the ABC.
*interesting to compare Morrison/Fox with Trump/Fox.
sarahs mum said:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/11/robodebt-five-years-of-lies-mistakes-and-failures-that-caused-a-18bn-scandalMorrison had declared his desire to be the “welfare cop” in a series of interviews, starting with a Sky News interview on 21 January 2015.
*remembers back to when Morrison et al would not appear on the ABC.
*interesting to compare Morrison/Fox with Trump/Fox.
“We will be stopping the rorts,” he said.
Yes. Morrison stopped the rorts. Sure. *rolls eyes.
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/11/robodebt-five-years-of-lies-mistakes-and-failures-that-caused-a-18bn-scandalMorrison had declared his desire to be the “welfare cop” in a series of interviews, starting with a Sky News interview on 21 January 2015.
*remembers back to when Morrison et al would not appear on the ABC.
*interesting to compare Morrison/Fox with Trump/Fox.
“We will be stopping the rorts,” he said.
Yes. Morrison stopped the rorts. Sure. *rolls eyes.
DARVO
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/11/robodebt-five-years-of-lies-mistakes-and-failures-that-caused-a-18bn-scandalMorrison had declared his desire to be the “welfare cop” in a series of interviews, starting with a Sky News interview on 21 January 2015.
*remembers back to when Morrison et al would not appear on the ABC.
*interesting to compare Morrison/Fox with Trump/Fox.
“We will be stopping the rorts,” he said.
Yes. Morrison stopped the rorts. Sure. *rolls eyes.
It’s only a rort when the poor do it.
Witty Rejoinder said:
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/11/robodebt-five-years-of-lies-mistakes-and-failures-that-caused-a-18bn-scandalMorrison had declared his desire to be the “welfare cop” in a series of interviews, starting with a Sky News interview on 21 January 2015.
*remembers back to when Morrison et al would not appear on the ABC.
*interesting to compare Morrison/Fox with Trump/Fox.
“We will be stopping the rorts,” he said.
Yes. Morrison stopped the rorts. Sure. *rolls eyes.
It’s only a rort when the poor do it.
It is normal fare for the privileged few.
Commissioner Holmes: “I want to acknowledge that the Twitter coverage of these hearings has performed a remarkably useful & important public service in giving people access to the evidence.”
Wow. #RoboDebtRC
https://twitter.com/strangerous10/status/1634077569636261889
sarahs mum said:
Commissioner Holmes: “I want to acknowledge that the Twitter coverage of these hearings has performed a remarkably useful & important public service in giving people access to the evidence.”Wow. #RoboDebtRC
https://twitter.com/strangerous10/status/1634077569636261889
That was quite a moment, when MSM are not covering it so the Australia people find out how corrupt and callous that their politicians are.
Robodebt royal commissioner and former Queensland supreme court chief justice Catherine Holmes commends Guardian Australia’s Luke Henriques-Gomes, the Saturday Paper’s Rick Morton and lawyer Darren O’Donovan for their ‘committed’ coverage of the evidence during the robodebt royal commission proceedings. She refers to traditional media’s coverage in general as ‘patchy’ but says she is ‘struck by the how committed and serious some of the people tweeting are’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtSFnnkvk
sarahs mum said:
Robodebt royal commissioner and former Queensland supreme court chief justice Catherine Holmes commends Guardian Australia’s Luke Henriques-Gomes, the Saturday Paper’s Rick Morton and lawyer Darren O’Donovan for their ‘committed’ coverage of the evidence during the robodebt royal commission proceedings. She refers to traditional media’s coverage in general as ‘patchy’ but says she is ‘struck by the how committed and serious some of the people tweeting are’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtSFnnkvk
If she is reading social media on the issue and forming opinions on that content I think she has totally lost the plot.
Peak Warming Man said:
sarahs mum said:
Robodebt royal commissioner and former Queensland supreme court chief justice Catherine Holmes commends Guardian Australia’s Luke Henriques-Gomes, the Saturday Paper’s Rick Morton and lawyer Darren O’Donovan for their ‘committed’ coverage of the evidence during the robodebt royal commission proceedings. She refers to traditional media’s coverage in general as ‘patchy’ but says she is ‘struck by the how committed and serious some of the people tweeting are’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtSFnnkvk
If she is reading social media on the issue and forming opinions on that content I think she has totally lost the plot.
I read the statement differently to yourself.
Peak Warming Man said:
sarahs mum said:
Robodebt royal commissioner and former Queensland supreme court chief justice Catherine Holmes commends Guardian Australia’s Luke Henriques-Gomes, the Saturday Paper’s Rick Morton and lawyer Darren O’Donovan for their ‘committed’ coverage of the evidence during the robodebt royal commission proceedings. She refers to traditional media’s coverage in general as ‘patchy’ but says she is ‘struck by the how committed and serious some of the people tweeting are’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtSFnnkvk
If she is reading social media on the issue and forming opinions on that content I think she has totally lost the plot.
I think the the suggestion is that some of “real time” reporting on the royal commission has been highly factual and free of opinion
diddly-squat said:
Peak Warming Man said:
sarahs mum said:
Robodebt royal commissioner and former Queensland supreme court chief justice Catherine Holmes commends Guardian Australia’s Luke Henriques-Gomes, the Saturday Paper’s Rick Morton and lawyer Darren O’Donovan for their ‘committed’ coverage of the evidence during the robodebt royal commission proceedings. She refers to traditional media’s coverage in general as ‘patchy’ but says she is ‘struck by the how committed and serious some of the people tweeting are’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtSFnnkvk
If she is reading social media on the issue and forming opinions on that content I think she has totally lost the plot.
I think the the suggestion is that some of “real time” reporting on the royal commission has been highly factual and free of opinion
Yeah. Professional journalists will also often tweet developments as they happen that may not necessarily result in news stories at their various media organisations.
Peak Warming Man said:
sarahs mum said:
Robodebt royal commissioner and former Queensland supreme court chief justice Catherine Holmes commends Guardian Australia’s Luke Henriques-Gomes, the Saturday Paper’s Rick Morton and lawyer Darren O’Donovan for their ‘committed’ coverage of the evidence during the robodebt royal commission proceedings. She refers to traditional media’s coverage in general as ‘patchy’ but says she is ‘struck by the how committed and serious some of the people tweeting are’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtSFnnkvk
If she is reading social media on the issue and forming opinions on that content I think she has totally lost the plot.
If you watch you will see her congratulating some of those on social media (who have been brought to her attention by a media asst) for actually reporting what is happening. as opposed to the MSM who it is implied have done a somewhat trashy job of reporting…
Peter Gordon, the head of Gordon Legal, told the ABC he had written to the prime minister inviting negotiations for a fresh claim potentially under misfeasance or abuse of process or misrepresentation.
Gordon Legal’s senior lawyer Andrew Grech said if the firm was given a new opportunity to bring evidence from the royal commission before a civil court he expected there would be “serious repercussions for the individuals involved”.
“We always suspected that something along these lines is what had occurred, but there is a huge difference between knowing a thing and being able to prove a thing,” Mr Grech said.
“And what I think the royal commission demonstrates is those proofs are available.
“I would summarise as ‘watch this space’.”
roughbarked said:
Peter Gordon, the head of Gordon Legal, told the ABC he had written to the prime minister inviting negotiations for a fresh claim potentially under misfeasance or abuse of process or misrepresentation.Gordon Legal’s senior lawyer Andrew Grech said if the firm was given a new opportunity to bring evidence from the royal commission before a civil court he expected there would be “serious repercussions for the individuals involved”.
“We always suspected that something along these lines is what had occurred, but there is a huge difference between knowing a thing and being able to prove a thing,” Mr Grech said.
“And what I think the royal commission demonstrates is those proofs are available.
“I would summarise as ‘watch this space’.”
roughbarked said:
roughbarked said:
Peter Gordon, the head of Gordon Legal, told the ABC he had written to the prime minister inviting negotiations for a fresh claim potentially under misfeasance or abuse of process or misrepresentation.Gordon Legal’s senior lawyer Andrew Grech said if the firm was given a new opportunity to bring evidence from the royal commission before a civil court he expected there would be “serious repercussions for the individuals involved”.
“We always suspected that something along these lines is what had occurred, but there is a huge difference between knowing a thing and being able to prove a thing,” Mr Grech said.
“And what I think the royal commission demonstrates is those proofs are available.
“I would summarise as ‘watch this space’.”
But it is considered a complex tort, and the Australian Government Solicitor has noted in its legal briefings that claimants must prove “bad faith” in decision making, not just wrongful decisions or even negligence.
Because it is an “intentional tort”, claimants can pursue damages both for the wrong itself and any consequential loss.
Government Services Minister Bill Shorten told the ABC on Monday night the consequences flowing from the royal commission were far from over.
“I do not know why Coalition ministers, with that sort of very damning analysis by the royal commission, why they think when the commissioner says there’s the tort of in public office, why they think victims won’t sue them individually,” Mr Shorten said.
“This royal commission outlines in tragic honesty the culpability of a range of Coalition ministers and senior public servants, there’s no escaping that.”
Robo-debt royal commission ends in criminal referrals
Rick Morton
Commissioner Catherine Holmes delivers the robo-debt royal commission report at Government House, Canberra, on Friday. Commissioner Catherine Holmes delivers the robo-debt royal commission report at Government House, Canberra, on Friday.
Credit: AAP Image / Mick Tsikas
Scott Morrison. Kathryn Campbell. Alan Tudge. Stuart Robert. Malisa Golightly. Annette Musolino. Serena Wilson. Jonathan Hutson. Mark Withnell. Paul McBride. Emma Kate McGuirk. Karen Harfield. Jason McNamara. Craig Storen.
These are the names of the politicians and public servants who lied, dissembled and participated in the active cover-up of a multibillion-dollar fraud carried out against more than 400,000 disadvantaged Australians, motivated by “venality, incompetence and cowardice”.
After almost a decade of deceit, the robo-debt royal commission, led by former Queensland Supreme Court chief justice Catherine Holmes, found all of these people were complicit in one of the most shameful chapters of Australian government history.
Referrals have been made to the Australian Federal Police, the National Anti-Corruption Commission and professional conduct bodies for public servants and practising lawyers.
Commissioner Holmes said the section containing these names was sealed as a means of holding individuals to account, noting she was “truly dismayed” at the revelations of “dishonesty and collusion” that was used to prevent the illegal status of robo-debt becoming public.
What Holmes has found is simple and devastating.
Robo-debt was born in the depths of the Department of Human Services and it was brought into the world by Scott Morrison as Social Services minister. Morrison “allowed Cabinet to be misled” following the sudden removal of language from a February 2015 brief that warned legislative change was required.
It was Morrison’s pathological incuriosity that allowed cabinet to be deceived.
“Mr Morrison allowed Cabinet to be misled because he did not make that obvious inquiry,” Holmes’s report says. “He took the proposal to Cabinet without necessary information.”
Mark Withnell, the Department of Human Services integrity branch general manager, “engaged in deliberate conduct designed to mislead Cabinet” as did his superiors up the chain, including deputy secretary Malisa Golightly, now deceased, and Secretary Kathryn Campbell.
Campbell, in fact, is implicated at every stage of the robo-debt saga. Not only did she know the scheme always contemplated the use of income averaging, which advice said was illegal, but she also took steps to prevent external legal advice from being sought while she was on leave. That advice was sought by acting secretary Barry Jackson.
“The Commission finds that Ms Campbell instructed DHS officers to cease the process of responding to Mr Jackson’s request for advice, motivated by a concern that the unlawfulness of the Scheme might be exposed to the Ombudsman in the course of its investigation.”
Critically, the commission also found it was Kathryn Campbell who ordered a $1 million report from consultants PwC not be released.
“The Commission concludes that Ms Campbell made the decision that it should not be finalised and delivered to DHS,” it says.
“The rational inference is that although the report was contracted for and all but finalised, Ms Campbell formed the view that its detail as to the deficiencies of the Scheme was damaging and that it would be better for the department’s reputation, and her own, if it were not produced.”
Similarly, the chief counsel for the Department of Human Services, Annette Musolino, played along in a game of hide-and-seek with the provision of external legal advice, blocking attempts to settle the question properly.
She did this “because she knew that DHS executives, particularly Ms Campbell and Ms Golightly, did not want to be told they should seek independent advice because of the likelihood of its confirming that income averaging was unlawful and the professional consequences that they would face in that event”.
Critically, Commissioner Holmes pinpoints the beginning of 2017 as the event horizon beyond which ministers and public servants could not escape the “unfairness, probable illegality and cruelty” of the scheme that had by this point been operating for almost two years.
This is the moment, she says, that these features of robo-debt “became apparent”.
“It should have been abandoned or revised drastically, and an enormous amount of hardship and misery (as well as the expense the government was so anxious to minimise) would have been averted,” she says.
“Instead, the path taken was to double down, to go on the attack in the media against those who complained and to maintain the falsehood that in fact the system had not changed at all.”
These findings put then Human Services minister Alan Tudge and his office in the frame for a significant failure of leadership but also capture the tail end of Kathryn Campbell’s tenure as secretary of the Department of Human Services, before she moved to lead Social Services.
Tudge, Holmes found, was motivated by a desire to “save face” both personally and on behalf of the government. He wanted to “minimise public embarrassment” after he had publicly trumpeted the new-era of debt compliance when he became minister the year before.
Holmes found he abused his power in the role.
“As a minister, Mr Tudge was invested with a significant amount of public power,” the report says.
“Mr Tudge’s use of information about social security recipients in the media to distract from and discourage commentary about the scheme’s problems represented an abuse of that power.
“It was all the more reprehensible in view of the power imbalance between the minister and the cohort of people upon whom it would reasonably be expected to have the most impact, many of whom were vulnerable and dependent on the department, and its minister, for their livelihood.”
At the same time, Christian Porter, who was then Social Services Minister, did nothing to check whether this scheme was operating as it was intended.
“Mr Porter could not rationally have been satisfied of the legality of the Scheme on the basis of his general knowledge of the process, when he did not have actual knowledge of the content of the NPP, and had no idea whether it had said anything about the practice of income averaging,” the report says.
“They betrayed the trust of the nation and its citizens for four-and-a-half years with an unlawful scheme which the Federal Court has called the worst chapter of public administration.”
Around this time, there was also a concerted effort in Porter’s department, by Emma Kate McGuirk, Serena Wilson and other officials, to engage in “deception of the Commonwealth Ombudsman” who had launched an investigation into robo-debt.
The result of this deception was to trick the Ombudsman into believing there was legal advice that declared all was okay with the scheme. It was Wilson’s idea to withhold the original legal advice, which declared the policy illegal and, when this option was overruled, the trio worked to come up with another plan to get around their predicament.
That plan was to engage the same in-house lawyer, Anne Pulford, to write new advice that came to a different conclusion.
“The Commission is satisfied that Ms Pulford’s advice was influenced by pressure placed upon her by Ms McGuirk,” the report says.
Robo-debt continued with minor revisions because the deception of the Ombudsman was so convincing it gave Alan Tudge political cover, and an independent report, behind which he could stand.
When Stuart Robert was appointed minister for Government Services, he was briefed on a Federal Court of Australia case concerning a robo-debt victim in which the Australian Government Solicitor had provided draft legal advice warning the scheme was almost certainly not lawful.
Robert denies being briefed on this advice in June 2019, but the royal commission does not believe him. This poses a significant problem for the former minister because it was another five months before the opinion of the solicitor-general was sought. This was the definitive, scheme-killing legal advice.
Why was there such a long wait? Officials argue it was simply a long process.
“In the Commission’s view, none of this justifies the five-month delay in preparing and delivering the brief,” the report says.
“The question that needed answering was a simple one – was the use of averaging to determine social security entitlement lawful? It should not have taken almost half a year for the question to be asked.”
The Albanese government has asked Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet secretary Professor Glyn Davis, Attorney-General’s Department secretary Katherine Jones and the Australian Public Service Commissioner Dr Gordon de Brouwer to “lead the development” of advice in response to the report’s recommendations.
It has gone a step further in responding to the adverse findings against individual public servants. The Public Service Commissioner, who would ordinarily investigate if bureaucrats breached conduct codes, will delegate his powers to an independent reviewer, a former commissioner, Stephen Sedgwick, who will himself be supported by a taskforce set up within the APS Commission. Sedgwick will decide on breaches but will not get to choose what sanctions apply.
On Friday, after the report was released, Minister for Government Services Bill Shorten, who lobbied for and won the establishment of the inquiry, said the story of robo-debt was one where “previous government and senior public servants gaslighted the nation and its citizens for four-and-a-half years”.
“They betrayed the trust of the nation and its citizens for four-and-a-half years with an unlawful scheme which the Federal Court has called the worst chapter of public administration,” he said.
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2023/07/06/robo-debt-breaking-news
sarahs mum said:
Robo-debt royal commission ends in criminal referrals
Rick MortonCommissioner Catherine Holmes delivers the robo-debt royal commission report at Government House, Canberra, on Friday. Commissioner Catherine Holmes delivers the robo-debt royal commission report at Government House, Canberra, on Friday.
Credit: AAP Image / Mick TsikasScott Morrison. Kathryn Campbell. Alan Tudge. Stuart Robert. Malisa Golightly. Annette Musolino. Serena Wilson. Jonathan Hutson. Mark Withnell. Paul McBride. Emma Kate McGuirk. Karen Harfield. Jason McNamara. Craig Storen.
These are the names of the politicians and public servants who lied, dissembled and participated in the active cover-up of a multibillion-dollar fraud carried out against more than 400,000 disadvantaged Australians, motivated by “venality, incompetence and cowardice”.After almost a decade of deceit, the robo-debt royal commission, led by former Queensland Supreme Court chief justice Catherine Holmes, found all of these people were complicit in one of the most shameful chapters of Australian government history.
Referrals have been made to the Australian Federal Police, the National Anti-Corruption Commission and professional conduct bodies for public servants and practising lawyers.Commissioner Holmes said the section containing these names was sealed as a means of holding individuals to account, noting she was “truly dismayed” at the revelations of “dishonesty and collusion” that was used to prevent the illegal status of robo-debt becoming public.
What Holmes has found is simple and devastating.
Robo-debt was born in the depths of the Department of Human Services and it was brought into the world by Scott Morrison as Social Services minister. Morrison “allowed Cabinet to be misled” following the sudden removal of language from a February 2015 brief that warned legislative change was required.
It was Morrison’s pathological incuriosity that allowed cabinet to be deceived.
“Mr Morrison allowed Cabinet to be misled because he did not make that obvious inquiry,” Holmes’s report says. “He took the proposal to Cabinet without necessary information.”
Mark Withnell, the Department of Human Services integrity branch general manager, “engaged in deliberate conduct designed to mislead Cabinet” as did his superiors up the chain, including deputy secretary Malisa Golightly, now deceased, and Secretary Kathryn Campbell.
Campbell, in fact, is implicated at every stage of the robo-debt saga. Not only did she know the scheme always contemplated the use of income averaging, which advice said was illegal, but she also took steps to prevent external legal advice from being sought while she was on leave. That advice was sought by acting secretary Barry Jackson.
“The Commission finds that Ms Campbell instructed DHS officers to cease the process of responding to Mr Jackson’s request for advice, motivated by a concern that the unlawfulness of the Scheme might be exposed to the Ombudsman in the course of its investigation.”
Critically, the commission also found it was Kathryn Campbell who ordered a $1 million report from consultants PwC not be released.
“The Commission concludes that Ms Campbell made the decision that it should not be finalised and delivered to DHS,” it says.
“The rational inference is that although the report was contracted for and all but finalised, Ms Campbell formed the view that its detail as to the deficiencies of the Scheme was damaging and that it would be better for the department’s reputation, and her own, if it were not produced.”Similarly, the chief counsel for the Department of Human Services, Annette Musolino, played along in a game of hide-and-seek with the provision of external legal advice, blocking attempts to settle the question properly.
She did this “because she knew that DHS executives, particularly Ms Campbell and Ms Golightly, did not want to be told they should seek independent advice because of the likelihood of its confirming that income averaging was unlawful and the professional consequences that they would face in that event”.
Critically, Commissioner Holmes pinpoints the beginning of 2017 as the event horizon beyond which ministers and public servants could not escape the “unfairness, probable illegality and cruelty” of the scheme that had by this point been operating for almost two years.
This is the moment, she says, that these features of robo-debt “became apparent”.
“It should have been abandoned or revised drastically, and an enormous amount of hardship and misery (as well as the expense the government was so anxious to minimise) would have been averted,” she says.
“Instead, the path taken was to double down, to go on the attack in the media against those who complained and to maintain the falsehood that in fact the system had not changed at all.”
These findings put then Human Services minister Alan Tudge and his office in the frame for a significant failure of leadership but also capture the tail end of Kathryn Campbell’s tenure as secretary of the Department of Human Services, before she moved to lead Social Services.
Tudge, Holmes found, was motivated by a desire to “save face” both personally and on behalf of the government. He wanted to “minimise public embarrassment” after he had publicly trumpeted the new-era of debt compliance when he became minister the year before.
Holmes found he abused his power in the role.
“As a minister, Mr Tudge was invested with a significant amount of public power,” the report says.
“Mr Tudge’s use of information about social security recipients in the media to distract from and discourage commentary about the scheme’s problems represented an abuse of that power.
“It was all the more reprehensible in view of the power imbalance between the minister and the cohort of people upon whom it would reasonably be expected to have the most impact, many of whom were vulnerable and dependent on the department, and its minister, for their livelihood.”
At the same time, Christian Porter, who was then Social Services Minister, did nothing to check whether this scheme was operating as it was intended.
“Mr Porter could not rationally have been satisfied of the legality of the Scheme on the basis of his general knowledge of the process, when he did not have actual knowledge of the content of the NPP, and had no idea whether it had said anything about the practice of income averaging,” the report says.
“They betrayed the trust of the nation and its citizens for four-and-a-half years with an unlawful scheme which the Federal Court has called the worst chapter of public administration.”
Around this time, there was also a concerted effort in Porter’s department, by Emma Kate McGuirk, Serena Wilson and other officials, to engage in “deception of the Commonwealth Ombudsman” who had launched an investigation into robo-debt.
The result of this deception was to trick the Ombudsman into believing there was legal advice that declared all was okay with the scheme. It was Wilson’s idea to withhold the original legal advice, which declared the policy illegal and, when this option was overruled, the trio worked to come up with another plan to get around their predicament.That plan was to engage the same in-house lawyer, Anne Pulford, to write new advice that came to a different conclusion.
“The Commission is satisfied that Ms Pulford’s advice was influenced by pressure placed upon her by Ms McGuirk,” the report says.Robo-debt continued with minor revisions because the deception of the Ombudsman was so convincing it gave Alan Tudge political cover, and an independent report, behind which he could stand.
When Stuart Robert was appointed minister for Government Services, he was briefed on a Federal Court of Australia case concerning a robo-debt victim in which the Australian Government Solicitor had provided draft legal advice warning the scheme was almost certainly not lawful.
Robert denies being briefed on this advice in June 2019, but the royal commission does not believe him. This poses a significant problem for the former minister because it was another five months before the opinion of the solicitor-general was sought. This was the definitive, scheme-killing legal advice.
Why was there such a long wait? Officials argue it was simply a long process.
“In the Commission’s view, none of this justifies the five-month delay in preparing and delivering the brief,” the report says.
“The question that needed answering was a simple one – was the use of averaging to determine social security entitlement lawful? It should not have taken almost half a year for the question to be asked.”The Albanese government has asked Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet secretary Professor Glyn Davis, Attorney-General’s Department secretary Katherine Jones and the Australian Public Service Commissioner Dr Gordon de Brouwer to “lead the development” of advice in response to the report’s recommendations.
It has gone a step further in responding to the adverse findings against individual public servants. The Public Service Commissioner, who would ordinarily investigate if bureaucrats breached conduct codes, will delegate his powers to an independent reviewer, a former commissioner, Stephen Sedgwick, who will himself be supported by a taskforce set up within the APS Commission. Sedgwick will decide on breaches but will not get to choose what sanctions apply.
On Friday, after the report was released, Minister for Government Services Bill Shorten, who lobbied for and won the establishment of the inquiry, said the story of robo-debt was one where “previous government and senior public servants gaslighted the nation and its citizens for four-and-a-half years”.
“They betrayed the trust of the nation and its citizens for four-and-a-half years with an unlawful scheme which the Federal Court has called the worst chapter of public administration,” he said.
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2023/07/06/robo-debt-breaking-news
I should sue each and every one of them.
