Longish but interesting article (that I don’t necessarily endorse) by this US social psychologist, on the increase in depression and anxiety amongst young Americans and the contributing factors etc.

https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/mental-health-liberal-girls

>In May 2014, Greg Lukianoff invited me to lunch to talk about something he was seeing on college campuses that disturbed him. Greg is the president of FIRE (the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression), and he has worked tirelessly since 2001 to defend the free speech rights of college students. That almost always meant pushing back against administrators who didn’t want students to cause trouble, and who justified their suppression of speech with appeals to the emotional “safety” of students—appeals that the students themselves didn’t buy. But in late 2013, Greg began to encounter new cases in which students were pushing to ban speakers, punish people for ordinary speech, or implement policies that would chill free speech. These students arrived on campus in the fall of 2013 already accepting the idea that books, words, and ideas could hurt them. Why did so many students in 2013 believe this, when there was little sign of such beliefs in 2011?

Greg is prone to depression, and after hospitalization for a serious episode in 2007, Greg learned CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). In CBT you learn to recognize when your ruminations and automatic thinking patterns exemplify one or more of about a dozen “cognitive distortions,” such as catastrophizing, black-and-white thinking, fortune telling, or emotional reasoning. Thinking in these ways causes depression, as well as being a symptom of depression. Breaking out of these painful distortions is a cure for depression.

What Greg saw in 2013 were students justifying the suppression of speech and the punishment of dissent using the exact distortions that Greg had learned to free himself from. Students were saying that an unorthodox speaker on campus would cause severe harm to vulnerable students (catastrophizing); they were using their emotions as proof that a text should be removed from a syllabus (emotional reasoning). Greg hypothesized that if colleges supported the use of these cognitive distortions, rather than teaching students skills of critical thinking (which is basically what CBT is), then this could cause students to become depressed. Greg feared that colleges were performing reverse CBT….

Full piece

probably kids being increasingly deprived a childhood, that time and experiences from you develop your own native zen

wonder what the social constructionists make of childhood, be keen to mediate that I expect with their special work

maybe people who need the most help are the same people who know that socialised care is most helpful

Well this is fascinating.

SCIENCE said:

maybe people who need the most help are the same people who know that socialised care is most helpful

likely something in that

I wouldn’t exactly be feeling mentally well if I was a teenager and inheriting a broken planet with the real chance of World War III in the next decade or two.

Cymek said:

I wouldn’t exactly be feeling mentally well if I was a teenager and inheriting a broken planet with the real chance of World War III in the next decade or two.

and being the ones shouldering the default societal expectation of breeding and caring for the next generation

we mean it’s all CHINA’s fault with their three child policy right

after 40 years of ready access to abortion

oh wait

Does Jonathan smoke a pipe?

Kothos said:

Well this is fascinating.

Most people have blindspots, and one of Haidt’s is that he supports the banning of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) groups from his campus.

dv said:

Kothos said:

Well this is fascinating.

Most people have blindspots, and one of Haidt’s is that he supports the banning of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) groups from his campus.

Possibly fits in with his general thesis, since BDS groups are opposed to debate and dialogue.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Kothos said:

Well this is fascinating.

Most people have blindspots, and one of Haidt’s is that he supports the banning of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) groups from his campus.

Possibly fits in with his general thesis, since BDS groups are opposed to debate and dialogue.

They aren’t though.

SCIENCE said:

maybe people who need the most help are the same people who know that socialised care is most helpful

Maybe it’s a bit of a sad time for people who give half a shit about other people right now…

dv said:

Kothos said:

Well this is fascinating.

Most people have blindspots, and one of Haidt’s is that he supports the banning of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) groups from his campus.

I don’t.

Not that I can see anyway.

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

maybe people who need the most help are the same people who know that socialised care is most helpful

Maybe it’s a bit of a sad time for people who give half a shit about other people right now…

sure, serious question time, how then do we get more strong and confident advocates for socially slash ethically responsible conduct instead of this feedback cycle of despair and social decay

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Kothos said:

Well this is fascinating.

Most people have blindspots, and one of Haidt’s is that he supports the banning of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) groups from his campus.

I don’t.

Not that I can see anyway.

:) Take the farkenblinkers off.

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

maybe people who need the most help are the same people who know that socialised care is most helpful

Maybe it’s a bit of a sad time for people who give half a shit about other people right now…

sure, serious question time, how then do we get more strong and confident advocates for socially slash ethically responsible conduct instead of this feedback cycle of despair and social decay

I’m afraid you’ll have to enlist the doctrine of Family Kim.

Be nice if someone else beside me would read the article, then we can discuss it :)

Bubblecar said:

Be nice if someone else beside me would read the article, then we can discuss it :)

That’s not the forum way.

Bubblecar said:

Be nice if someone else beside me would read the article, then we can discuss it :)

Maybe later in the day.

Bubblecar said:

Bubblecar said:

Be nice if someone else beside me would read the article, then we can discuss it :)

That’s not the forum way.

Yeah, we want you to explain to us by feeding us spoonful by spoonful and watch us spit it out.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Kothos said:

Well this is fascinating.

Most people have blindspots, and one of Haidt’s is that he supports the banning of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) groups from his campus.

I don’t.

Not that I can see anyway.

Heh

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

maybe people who need the most help are the same people who know that socialised care is most helpful

Maybe it’s a bit of a sad time for people who give half a shit about other people right now…

sure, serious question time, how then do we get more strong and confident advocates for socially slash ethically responsible conduct instead of this feedback cycle of despair and social decay

It’s tough in the US because even the more progressive party is pretty conservative but it’s good to look for glimmers of hope or silver linings if you will.

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

Maybe it’s a bit of a sad time for people who give half a shit about other people right now…

sure, serious question time, how then do we get more strong and confident advocates for socially slash ethically responsible conduct instead of this feedback cycle of despair and social decay

It’s tough in the US because even the more progressive party is pretty conservative but it’s good to look for glimmers of hope or silver linings if you will.

John lennon Imagined.

roughbarked said:

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

sure, serious question time, how then do we get more strong and confident advocates for socially slash ethically responsible conduct instead of this feedback cycle of despair and social decay

It’s tough in the US because even the more progressive party is pretty conservative but it’s good to look for glimmers of hope or silver linings if you will.

John Lennon Imagined.

oops, capital L.

roughbarked said:

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

sure, serious question time, how then do we get more strong and confident advocates for socially slash ethically responsible conduct instead of this feedback cycle of despair and social decay

It’s tough in the US because even the more progressive party is pretty conservative but it’s good to look for glimmers of hope or silver linings if you will.

John lennon Imagined.

so cannabis and music you reckon

we could try that, it’s a start

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

dv said:

It’s tough in the US because even the more progressive party is pretty conservative but it’s good to look for glimmers of hope or silver linings if you will.

John lennon Imagined.

so cannabis and music you reckon

we could try that, it’s a start

Methinks cannabis was only a part of the group of substances John put through his system in his search for enlightenment.

roughbarked said:

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

John lennon Imagined.

so cannabis and music you reckon

we could try that, it’s a start

Methinks cannabis was only a part of the group of substances John put through his system in his search for enlightenment.

Mind, all those people left and right, bought the song to give it credit.
and all they did was listen to it. They only imagined the stuff that was in it.

roughbarked said:

roughbarked said:

SCIENCE said:

so cannabis and music you reckon

we could try that, it’s a start

Methinks cannabis was only a part of the group of substances John put through his system in his search for enlightenment.

Mind, all those people left and right, bought the song to give it credit.
and all they did was listen to it. They only imagined the stuff that was in it.

So I suppose thought and prayers do generate a lot of money but that it doesn’t seem to get spent on the thoughts that the prayers were for.

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

transition said:

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

Hold on to the shore.

transition said:

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

It’s like bashing the economy with a stick all these interest rates rises, make the public stop spending money by forcing them to have no money to spend.
But then we will get told to spend more money a few years down the track as the economy is faltering.
Got to have strong banks so they can make lots of profit lending us money so we can live to have a job to earn money to pay back loans (I’m mean fuck what a great system for the 1%)

Cymek said:

transition said:

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

It’s like bashing the economy with a stick all these interest rates rises, make the public stop spending money by forcing them to have no money to spend.
But then we will get told to spend more money a few years down the track as the economy is faltering.
Got to have strong banks so they can make lots of profit lending us money so we can live to have a job to earn money to pay back loans (I’m mean fuck what a great system for the 1%)

Monetary policy is a crude tool but it’s the best one out there. Government mandated price controls or wage growth restrictions are far worse.

Cymek said:

transition said:

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

It’s like bashing the economy with a stick all these interest rates rises, make the public stop spending money by forcing them to have no money to spend.
But then we will get told to spend more money a few years down the track as the economy is faltering.
Got to have strong banks so they can make lots of profit lending us money so we can live to have a job to earn money to pay back loans (I’m mean fuck what a great system for the 1%)

shrug it’s too difficult to address the supply side as you know, can’t prevent things that are making workers too sick or dead to produce, better to cut demand and cull the herd

Cymek said:

transition said:

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

It’s like bashing the economy with a stick all these interest rates rises, make the public stop spending money by forcing them to have no money to spend.
But then we will get told to spend more money a few years down the track as the economy is faltering.
Got to have strong banks so they can make lots of profit lending us money so we can live to have a job to earn money to pay back loans (I’m mean fuck what a great system for the 1%)

probably help if there was a plan for debt stability, be a start

not sure what the plan is, sink the money system as it is and migrate over to a digital currency I guess

as things go australia’s not too bad, though’s cost a bit of superannuation recently, shifted cost to later, to pensions and whatever

if pension age keeps going up i’ll never qualify

SCIENCE said:

Cymek said:

transition said:

what was about 2008 the debtmongering lunacy accelerated, GDP to debt ratio got massively worse, to this day and here things are the present madness of trying to bring inflation under control

anyway, just saying it takes a lot of bullshit to keep that working, or not working really

be no surprise if the children were deprived a childhood looking at that, the longer boats are here

It’s like bashing the economy with a stick all these interest rates rises, make the public stop spending money by forcing them to have no money to spend.
But then we will get told to spend more money a few years down the track as the economy is faltering.
Got to have strong banks so they can make lots of profit lending us money so we can live to have a job to earn money to pay back loans (I’m mean fuck what a great system for the 1%)

shrug it’s too difficult to address the supply side as you know, can’t prevent things that are making workers too sick or dead to produce, better to cut demand and cull the herd

I think there probably needs to be more explicit cognizance of the difference between earned middle class income and passive income of oligarchs. It seems largely politically taboo to say “right now, profits are too high and it’s draining wealth from the working class, lowering their standards of living.” Instead it’s just presented as something that some insensate beast called the market is doing rather than a sanctioned upward movement and concentration of resources.

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

Cymek said:

It’s like bashing the economy with a stick all these interest rates rises, make the public stop spending money by forcing them to have no money to spend.
But then we will get told to spend more money a few years down the track as the economy is faltering.
Got to have strong banks so they can make lots of profit lending us money so we can live to have a job to earn money to pay back loans (I’m mean fuck what a great system for the 1%)

shrug it’s too difficult to address the supply side as you know, can’t prevent things that are making workers too sick or dead to produce, better to cut demand and cull the herd

I think there probably needs to be more explicit cognizance of the difference between earned middle class income and passive income of oligarchs. It seems largely politically taboo to say “right now, profits are too high and it’s draining wealth from the working class, lowering their standards of living.” Instead it’s just presented as something that some insensate beast called the market is doing rather than a sanctioned upward movement and concentration of resources.

Do you mean stop returning capital to the capitalists?

Far out!

Hippie

My first reaction was: “which liberal”, where are quite a few different and incompatible definitions …

> “students justifying the suppression of speech and the punishment of dissent using the exact distortions that Greg had learned to free himself from.”

… and that isn’t any of the definitions of “liberal”.