https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jul/31/australian-electric-vehicles-ev-sales-rise-increase

Australian electric vehicle sales in first half of 2023 already higher than all of 2022, report says
Lack of official vehicle efficiency standards blamed for low supplies as demand for electric cars continues to exceed availability

Electric vehicles are becoming increasingly popular among Australians, with sales during the first half of 2023 already eclipsing last year’s annual total, though the industry has warned a federal policy vacuum continues to harm consumer choice.

The Electric Vehicle Council has also singled out the Victorian government as having “the world’s worst” approach to taxing EV ownership in its report on the state of the industry to be released on Monday.

From January to June this year, 8.4% of new car sales in Australia were electric. In 2022, just 3.8% of new vehicle sales were electric.

The 46,624 EVs sold in the first six months of the year take the number of EVs on Australian roads to roughly 130,000 – made up of about 109,000 battery powered cars and 21,000 hybrids – according to estimates from the Electric Vehicle Council.

However, uptake has varied considerably between regions. EV sales have been strongest in the Australian Capital Territory, where 21.8% of new cars sold so far this year were electric, followed by 9% in New South Wales and Tasmania, 8.5% in Victoria, 7.7% in Queensland, 7.5% in Western Australia, 6.5% in South Australia and 2.4% in the Northern Territory.

Market share is also heavily limited. Just three vehicles – Tesla’s Model Y and Model 3, and the BYD Atto 3 – account for more than 68% of the market in Australia. While there are 91 different electric cars, vans and utes on the market in Australia, most have very limited supply.

dv said:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jul/31/australian-electric-vehicles-ev-sales-rise-increase

Australian electric vehicle sales in first half of 2023 already higher than all of 2022, report says
Lack of official vehicle efficiency standards blamed for low supplies as demand for electric cars continues to exceed availability

Electric vehicles are becoming increasingly popular among Australians, with sales during the first half of 2023 already eclipsing last year’s annual total, though the industry has warned a federal policy vacuum continues to harm consumer choice.

The Electric Vehicle Council has also singled out the Victorian government as having “the world’s worst” approach to taxing EV ownership in its report on the state of the industry to be released on Monday.

From January to June this year, 8.4% of new car sales in Australia were electric. In 2022, just 3.8% of new vehicle sales were electric.

The 46,624 EVs sold in the first six months of the year take the number of EVs on Australian roads to roughly 130,000 – made up of about 109,000 battery powered cars and 21,000 hybrids – according to estimates from the Electric Vehicle Council.

However, uptake has varied considerably between regions. EV sales have been strongest in the Australian Capital Territory, where 21.8% of new cars sold so far this year were electric, followed by 9% in New South Wales and Tasmania, 8.5% in Victoria, 7.7% in Queensland, 7.5% in Western Australia, 6.5% in South Australia and 2.4% in the Northern Territory.

Market share is also heavily limited. Just three vehicles – Tesla’s Model Y and Model 3, and the BYD Atto 3 – account for more than 68% of the market in Australia. While there are 91 different electric cars, vans and utes on the market in Australia, most have very limited supply.

News here said electric car registrations had doubled this year in Tasmania.

dv said:

The Electric Vehicle Council has also singled out the Victorian government as having “the world’s worst” approach to taxing EV ownership in its report on the state of the industry to be released on Monday.

Quite right. What they are doing is getting you to take a photo of the odometer at every rego renewal and they charge you a small amount for every kilometre you’ve driven. It doesn’t matter if it was out of state nor on private roads, etc. It adds a great deal to the cost of driving one.
I can understand why something like that is being used as EV’s don’t use petrol or diesel, both of which have various taxes in them to help pay for road maintenance & construction, etc.

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

The Electric Vehicle Council has also singled out the Victorian government as having “the world’s worst” approach to taxing EV ownership in its report on the state of the industry to be released on Monday.

Quite right. What they are doing is getting you to take a photo of the odometer at every rego renewal and they charge you a small amount for every kilometre you’ve driven. It doesn’t matter if it was out of state nor on private roads, etc. It adds a great deal to the cost of driving one.
I can understand why something like that is being used as EV’s don’t use petrol or diesel, both of which have various taxes in them to help pay for road maintenance & construction, etc.

Maybe all vehicles should be taxed this way. With heavy vehicles getting taxed at a higher rate.

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

dv said:

The Electric Vehicle Council has also singled out the Victorian government as having “the world’s worst” approach to taxing EV ownership in its report on the state of the industry to be released on Monday.

Quite right. What they are doing is getting you to take a photo of the odometer at every rego renewal and they charge you a small amount for every kilometre you’ve driven. It doesn’t matter if it was out of state nor on private roads, etc. It adds a great deal to the cost of driving one.
I can understand why something like that is being used as EV’s don’t use petrol or diesel, both of which have various taxes in them to help pay for road maintenance & construction, etc.

Maybe all vehicles should be taxed this way. With heavy vehicles getting taxed at a higher rate.

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

Quite right. What they are doing is getting you to take a photo of the odometer at every rego renewal and they charge you a small amount for every kilometre you’ve driven. It doesn’t matter if it was out of state nor on private roads, etc. It adds a great deal to the cost of driving one.
I can understand why something like that is being used as EV’s don’t use petrol or diesel, both of which have various taxes in them to help pay for road maintenance & construction, etc.

Maybe all vehicles should be taxed this way. With heavy vehicles getting taxed at a higher rate.

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

might come undone when they go to sell it and the kilometreage doesn’t match.

Bogsnorkler said:

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Maybe all vehicles should be taxed this way. With heavy vehicles getting taxed at a higher rate.

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

might come undone when they go to sell it and the kilometreage doesn’t match.

Yep.

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

Quite right. What they are doing is getting you to take a photo of the odometer at every rego renewal and they charge you a small amount for every kilometre you’ve driven. It doesn’t matter if it was out of state nor on private roads, etc. It adds a great deal to the cost of driving one.
I can understand why something like that is being used as EV’s don’t use petrol or diesel, both of which have various taxes in them to help pay for road maintenance & construction, etc.

Maybe all vehicles should be taxed this way. With heavy vehicles getting taxed at a higher rate.

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

Yeah. That does matter in some areas I guess, if you live near a state border. But then again, if you go interstate you are basically using their roads for free. So you pay the tax in the state where the vehicle is domiciled and it all works out on a macro scale.

Maybe they need people to take a photo with some form of evidence of the date. Like a newspaper of that day, or some kind of mobile phone app where you have to log in on the day and then take the photo via the app so it can verify the date.

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

party_pants said:

Maybe all vehicles should be taxed this way. With heavy vehicles getting taxed at a higher rate.

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

Yeah. That does matter in some areas I guess, if you live near a state border. But then again, if you go interstate you are basically using their roads for free. So you pay the tax in the state where the vehicle is domiciled and it all works out on a macro scale.

Maybe they need people to take a photo with some form of evidence of the date. Like a newspaper of that day, or some kind of mobile phone app where you have to log in on the day and then take the photo via the app so it can verify the date.

or just teach people to be honest.

Bogsnorkler said:

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

Yeah. That does matter in some areas I guess, if you live near a state border. But then again, if you go interstate you are basically using their roads for free. So you pay the tax in the state where the vehicle is domiciled and it all works out on a macro scale.

Maybe they need people to take a photo with some form of evidence of the date. Like a newspaper of that day, or some kind of mobile phone app where you have to log in on the day and then take the photo via the app so it can verify the date.

or just teach people to be honest.

You can’t teach people to be honest. Any system that relies upon human honesty is doomed to failure eventually.

Bogsnorkler said:

party_pants said:

Spiny Norman said:

Sure, but it makes it difficult to fairly charge people for driving out of their state.
I have read that some EV drivers are taking photos before the year is up, so they don’t clock up too many k’s when paying rego.

Yeah. That does matter in some areas I guess, if you live near a state border. But then again, if you go interstate you are basically using their roads for free. So you pay the tax in the state where the vehicle is domiciled and it all works out on a macro scale.

Maybe they need people to take a photo with some form of evidence of the date. Like a newspaper of that day, or some kind of mobile phone app where you have to log in on the day and then take the photo via the app so it can verify the date.

or just teach people to be honest.

ha

poikilotherm said:

Bogsnorkler said:

party_pants said:

Yeah. That does matter in some areas I guess, if you live near a state border. But then again, if you go interstate you are basically using their roads for free. So you pay the tax in the state where the vehicle is domiciled and it all works out on a macro scale.

Maybe they need people to take a photo with some form of evidence of the date. Like a newspaper of that day, or some kind of mobile phone app where you have to log in on the day and then take the photo via the app so it can verify the date.

or just teach people to be honest.

ha

I would think it’s a small price to pay
if one factors in the reward of saving the planet
…but then that’s “me”…

Ogmog said:

poikilotherm said:

Bogsnorkler said:

or just teach people to be honest.

ha

I would think it’s a small price to pay
if one factors in the reward of saving the planet
…but then that’s “me”…

it’s not just you.

It’s also about less asthma and shitty chemicals in pedestrians and those who live near highways.

Photos have always had the date on the negatives and in digital there is the EXIF data.

sarahs mum said:

Ogmog said:

poikilotherm said:

ha

I would think it’s a small price to pay
if one factors in the reward of saving the planet
…but then that’s “me”…

it’s not just you.

It’s also about less asthma and shitty chemicals in pedestrians and those who live near highways.

There’s always P2 masks¡

transition said:

dv said:

Bogsnorkler said:

the regen slows the car without having to apply the brakes.

Well I hope there’s a brake pedal as well…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking

It’s stupid, in essence it sets the neutral point to be half pressed down, lift the pedal and it engages braking, press down and it accelerates. Counterintuitive and probably dangerous.

sarahs mum said:

Ogmog said:

poikilotherm said:

ha

I would think it’s a small price to pay
if one factors in the reward of saving the planet
…but then that’s “me”…

it’s not just you.

It’s also about less asthma and shitty chemicals in pedestrians and those who live near highways.

by ‘just “me”’
I meant that I don’t mind
pitching in a few pazoozas if it
benefits others (other than scam artists)

> From January to June this year, 8.4% of new car sales in Australia were electric.

Thanks for the update. I have been seeing so many Teslas on the road and in driveways that I’ve been beginning to wonder. Who are these millionaires who can afford such an expensive car? It costs in its base model fully four times as much as the last car I bought myself.

mollwollfumble said:

> From January to June this year, 8.4% of new car sales in Australia were electric.

Thanks for the update. I have been seeing so many Teslas on the road and in driveways that I’ve been beginning to wonder. Who are these millionaires who can afford such an expensive car? It costs in its base model fully four times as much as the last car I bought myself.

Elon Musk offers a significant discount if you join his cult as an entry level fawning sycophant and worship him.

mollwollfumble said:

> From January to June this year, 8.4% of new car sales in Australia were electric.

Thanks for the update. I have been seeing so many Teslas on the road and in driveways that I’ve been beginning to wonder. Who are these millionaires who can afford such an expensive car? It costs in its base model fully four times as much as the last car I bought myself.

They are very much cheaper to run than a regular car. The servicing costs are pocket money, the only real servicing that needs to be done is a tyre change ever few years (due to the greater weight of them, they tend to wear-out a tyre a bit faster than a regular car), washer fluid top-up, wiper blades changed, maybe some brake fluid change every decade or so. Pretty cheap over all.

They don’t know what to do with the old batteries as far as I know. We are creating waste we can’t recycle

Because of the complexity of the recycling process, and the associated expenses; currently, just 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled. 2 Researchers are working on a more ideal solution called direct recycling.
https://www.futuretracker.com/post/electric-vehicle-battery-recycling#:~:text=Because%20of%20the%20complexity%20of,ideal%20solution%20called%20direct%20recycling.

It makes more sense to just make ICE more efficient

Reduce vehicle mass by changing to alloy wheels.

wookiemeister said:

They don’t know what to do with the old batteries as far as I know. We are creating waste we can’t recycle

Here’s an Australian company that’s doing it and there’s a lot more dotted around the world.
https://www.ecobatt.net

Specialists have issued warnings that tires, often overlooked in discussions about pollution, release a significant amount of chemicals and microplastics into the environment. Electric vehicle tires, in particular, have been found to produce up to 20% more pollution compared to those on gasoline vehicles.17 July 2023

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

They don’t know what to do with the old batteries as far as I know. We are creating waste we can’t recycle

Here’s an Australian company that’s doing it and there’s a lot more dotted around the world.
https://www.ecobatt.net

I’ll contact them for more details

wookiemeister said:

Specialists have issued warnings that tires, often overlooked in discussions about pollution, release a significant amount of chemicals and microplastics into the environment. Electric vehicle tires, in particular, have been found to produce up to 20% more pollution compared to those on gasoline vehicles.17 July 2023

Tyres can also be recycled.

https://molectra.com.au

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Specialists have issued warnings that tires, often overlooked in discussions about pollution, release a significant amount of chemicals and microplastics into the environment. Electric vehicle tires, in particular, have been found to produce up to 20% more pollution compared to those on gasoline vehicles.17 July 2023

Tyres can also be recycled.

https://molectra.com.au

They can but its the tyre dust generated

https://youtu.be/fZozUReGOq4

The truth about ev battery recycling

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Specialists have issued warnings that tires, often overlooked in discussions about pollution, release a significant amount of chemicals and microplastics into the environment. Electric vehicle tires, in particular, have been found to produce up to 20% more pollution compared to those on gasoline vehicles.17 July 2023

Tyres can also be recycled.

https://molectra.com.au

They can but its the tyre dust generated

It’s still not a lot.

wookiemeister said:

https://youtu.be/fZozUReGOq4

The truth about ev battery recycling

He’s widely recognised as being a biased idiot in the car community. Don’t believe anything he says.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

Tyres can also be recycled.

https://molectra.com.au

They can but its the tyre dust generated

It’s still not a lot.

Dunno

I watched the YouTube presentation today and got a completely different view.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

https://youtu.be/fZozUReGOq4

The truth about ev battery recycling

He’s widely recognised as being a biased idiot in the car community. Don’t believe anything he says.

Yes. I tried watching some of his videos.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

https://youtu.be/fZozUReGOq4

The truth about ev battery recycling

He’s widely recognised as being a biased idiot in the car community. Don’t believe anything he says.

Yeah I haven’t watched very much from him fir a long time then this popped up today

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

They can but its the tyre dust generated

It’s still not a lot.

Dunno

I watched the YouTube presentation today and got a completely different view.

You rarely see a lot of tyre dust./chunks on the side of the road.

Doesn’t matter what the truth or reality is these days

I saw some statistics a few days ago saying wind turbines sit idle for months on end. I pass some on the way to mount isa , they are rarely spinning whenever I go by.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

It’s still not a lot.

Dunno

I watched the YouTube presentation today and got a completely different view.

You rarely see a lot of tyre dust./chunks on the side of the road.

Makes me wonder if it’s just further degraded by the sun and just eaten up by natural processes

Maybe it’s better to encourage EV use in major cities to reduce pollution ( stop start)

Hybrid could be better, smaller battery pack, better suited for start stop city driving, infinite range. Rather than full electric

wookiemeister said:

Hybrid could be better, smaller battery pack, better suited for start stop city driving, infinite range. Rather than full electric

Plain EV’s are best in town as they can do regen braking, so that helps the battery charge.

The problem is the worth of vehicle is based on the battery pack, give it a few years and it’s worthless.

Then you’ve got the fires.

I like the concept of EVs the reality is another matter.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Hybrid could be better, smaller battery pack, better suited for start stop city driving, infinite range. Rather than full electric

Plain EV’s are best in town as they can do regen braking, so that helps the battery charge.

I’d be more likely to convert an old classic to electric. It would make it more reliable

wookiemeister said:

The problem is the worth of vehicle is based on the battery pack, give it a few years and it’s worthless.

Then you’ve got the fires.

I like the concept of EVs the reality is another matter.

They newer packs are expected to outlast the useful life of the car, and by two to three times long.
Fires can be bad, yes, an EV is far less likely to catch on fire than a regular car.
See myth number 9 – https://molectra.com.auhttps

And they can be kept under control with a dedicated fire suppression blanket. It gives far more time to get the right gear to tackle the fire.
“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO8cVWOqZcg&t=2shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO8cVWOqZcg&t=2s

Also, the latest batteries are somewhat less likely to catch on fire anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSGESKhtZD0

LOL

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

Tyres can also be recycled.

https://molectra.com.au

They can but its the tyre dust generated

It’s still not a lot.

It is still pollution.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

The problem is the worth of vehicle is based on the battery pack, give it a few years and it’s worthless.

Then you’ve got the fires.

I like the concept of EVs the reality is another matter.

They newer packs are expected to outlast the useful life of the car, and by two to three times long.
Fires can be bad, yes, an EV is far less likely to catch on fire than a regular car.
See myth number 9 – https://molectra.com.auhttps

And they can be kept under control with a dedicated fire suppression blanket. It gives far more time to get the right gear to tackle the fire.
“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO8cVWOqZcg&t=2shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO8cVWOqZcg&t=2s

Also, the latest batteries are somewhat less likely to catch on fire anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSGESKhtZD0

Just avoid Chinese EVs.

https://e-vehicleinfo.com/global/chinas-electric-explosions-7-electric-vehicles-catch-fire-each-day/

Over 3,000 EVs Fires per Year in China, Insurance Premiums Leap 20% (https://www.energytrend.com/news/20221018-30074.html)

There’s about 174,000 vehicle fires in the US per year. We might assume that almost all are ICE vehicles. This represents 0.06 per cent of approx. 278,000,000 vehicles in US in the US.

The most alarming reports of EV fires in China claim 19,000 fires in 2021. This would be 0.19 per cent of approx. 10,000,000 EVs in use in China.

Initial conclusion: EVs, especially Chinese EVs, are more than 3 times as likely to combust.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

They don’t know what to do with the old batteries as far as I know. We are creating waste we can’t recycle

Here’s an Australian company that’s doing it and there’s a lot more dotted around the world.
https://www.ecobatt.net

The problem there is, they don’t offer to buy batteries. I have a number of kilos of silver oxide watch batteries. also similar of Lithium.
I’m nnot giving them away when I am aware that I can get money for the silver ones at least.

mollwollfumble said:

> From January to June this year, 8.4% of new car sales in Australia were electric.

Thanks for the update. I have been seeing so many Teslas on the road and in driveways that I’ve been beginning to wonder. Who are these millionaires who can afford such an expensive car? It costs in its base model fully four times as much as the last car I bought myself.

A model Y is there-or-there-abouts $50k… that’s about $10k more than a base level Toyota Camry

If there are more problems to comes we’ll see them over the next few years. In my experience the first model of anything has some fault not realised – it takes at least a year to see a trend. Parts on a machine have warranty and there’s some expectation from the customer about the life of the machine.

In the John cadogan example he puts the ship fire squarely on the shoulders of a VW in the hold. I recommend watching his take on the matter.

My concern about EVs

The power grid isn’t designed to take another massive load. When people return from work they’d expect to charge their cats.

Now – think of a significant number of those cars on the road , now add 1.5 million extra people, all using MORE power, buying more cars, using more water, requiring more houses, materials, doctors, dentists, surgeons, parking spaces, flights etc. The only way to pay for it is to increase GST, taxes, fines, licensing etc.

The EV vehicle issue is just the tip of the iceberg of self inflicted problems, you can’t reduce Australia’s emissions by importing 1.5 million more people.

The EV vehicle charging network would need to be drastically increased. This might work out for me because they’d be screaming out for installers. It’s true wages would increase but so would taxes to reduce inflation. It’s the perfect storm.

When I fill up my vehicle it takes me a few minutes, charging an EV takes HOURS. Unless you swap the battery EVs don’t make sense. Hybrids give the functionality to time poor people, full EVs might be better for retired people / those able to use their own solar cells to charge during the day at their own house.

Maybe hydrogen is the way to go – the waste products are steam and nitrogen oxides ( that are destroyed by catalytic conveters). No upgraded electrical network needed, no hundreds of thousands of charging stations, no need to destroy the environment to mine minerals.

The only problem is storage of the H2 which they kinda seem to have sorted out. HGVs would be my choice for H2 vehicles, no diesel fumes belching out, trucks would have set routed and the hydrogen charging stations could be part of existing service stations ?

wookiemeister said:

If there are more problems to comes we’ll see them over the next few years. In my experience the first model of anything has some fault not realised – it takes at least a year to see a trend. Parts on a machine have warranty and there’s some expectation from the customer about the life of the machine.

In the John cadogan example he puts the ship fire squarely on the shoulders of a VW in the hold. I recommend watching his take on the matter.

My concern about EVs

The power grid isn’t designed to take another massive load. When people return from work they’d expect to charge their cats.

Now – think of a significant number of those cars on the road , now add 1.5 million extra people, all using MORE power, buying more cars, using more water, requiring more houses, materials, doctors, dentists, surgeons, parking spaces, flights etc. The only way to pay for it is to increase GST, taxes, fines, licensing etc.

The EV vehicle issue is just the tip of the iceberg of self inflicted problems, you can’t reduce Australia’s emissions by importing 1.5 million more people.

The EV vehicle charging network would need to be drastically increased. This might work out for me because they’d be screaming out for installers. It’s true wages would increase but so would taxes to reduce inflation. It’s the perfect storm.

When I fill up my vehicle it takes me a few minutes, charging an EV takes HOURS. Unless you swap the battery EVs don’t make sense. Hybrids give the functionality to time poor people, full EVs might be better for retired people / those able to use their own solar cells to charge during the day at their own house.

Maybe hydrogen is the way to go – the waste products are steam and nitrogen oxides ( that are destroyed by catalytic conveters). No upgraded electrical network needed, no hundreds of thousands of charging stations, no need to destroy the environment to mine minerals.

The only problem is storage of the H2 which they kinda seem to have sorted out. HGVs would be my choice for H2 vehicles, no diesel fumes belching out, trucks would have set routed and the hydrogen charging stations could be part of existing service stations ?

What’d happen if we all bought new EVs next year – could the grid cope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12RoTa4qs1E

Also, Cadogan is an idiot that’s best ignored.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

If there are more problems to comes we’ll see them over the next few years. In my experience the first model of anything has some fault not realised – it takes at least a year to see a trend. Parts on a machine have warranty and there’s some expectation from the customer about the life of the machine.

In the John cadogan example he puts the ship fire squarely on the shoulders of a VW in the hold. I recommend watching his take on the matter.

My concern about EVs

The power grid isn’t designed to take another massive load. When people return from work they’d expect to charge their cats.

Now – think of a significant number of those cars on the road , now add 1.5 million extra people, all using MORE power, buying more cars, using more water, requiring more houses, materials, doctors, dentists, surgeons, parking spaces, flights etc. The only way to pay for it is to increase GST, taxes, fines, licensing etc.

The EV vehicle issue is just the tip of the iceberg of self inflicted problems, you can’t reduce Australia’s emissions by importing 1.5 million more people.

The EV vehicle charging network would need to be drastically increased. This might work out for me because they’d be screaming out for installers. It’s true wages would increase but so would taxes to reduce inflation. It’s the perfect storm.

When I fill up my vehicle it takes me a few minutes, charging an EV takes HOURS. Unless you swap the battery EVs don’t make sense. Hybrids give the functionality to time poor people, full EVs might be better for retired people / those able to use their own solar cells to charge during the day at their own house.

Maybe hydrogen is the way to go – the waste products are steam and nitrogen oxides ( that are destroyed by catalytic conveters). No upgraded electrical network needed, no hundreds of thousands of charging stations, no need to destroy the environment to mine minerals.

The only problem is storage of the H2 which they kinda seem to have sorted out. HGVs would be my choice for H2 vehicles, no diesel fumes belching out, trucks would have set routed and the hydrogen charging stations could be part of existing service stations ?

What’d happen if we all bought new EVs next year – could the grid cope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12RoTa4qs1E

Also, Cadogan is an idiot that’s best ignored.

Dunno.

We could find out I guess.

You could start small and make one city electric vehicle Central. Sydney because it has the most consumers and the most money to pay for it. If Sydney works out ok do another city.

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

If there are more problems to comes we’ll see them over the next few years. In my experience the first model of anything has some fault not realised – it takes at least a year to see a trend. Parts on a machine have warranty and there’s some expectation from the customer about the life of the machine.

In the John cadogan example he puts the ship fire squarely on the shoulders of a VW in the hold. I recommend watching his take on the matter.

My concern about EVs

The power grid isn’t designed to take another massive load. When people return from work they’d expect to charge their cats.

Now – think of a significant number of those cars on the road , now add 1.5 million extra people, all using MORE power, buying more cars, using more water, requiring more houses, materials, doctors, dentists, surgeons, parking spaces, flights etc. The only way to pay for it is to increase GST, taxes, fines, licensing etc.

The EV vehicle issue is just the tip of the iceberg of self inflicted problems, you can’t reduce Australia’s emissions by importing 1.5 million more people.

The EV vehicle charging network would need to be drastically increased. This might work out for me because they’d be screaming out for installers. It’s true wages would increase but so would taxes to reduce inflation. It’s the perfect storm.

When I fill up my vehicle it takes me a few minutes, charging an EV takes HOURS. Unless you swap the battery EVs don’t make sense. Hybrids give the functionality to time poor people, full EVs might be better for retired people / those able to use their own solar cells to charge during the day at their own house.

Maybe hydrogen is the way to go – the waste products are steam and nitrogen oxides ( that are destroyed by catalytic conveters). No upgraded electrical network needed, no hundreds of thousands of charging stations, no need to destroy the environment to mine minerals.

The only problem is storage of the H2 which they kinda seem to have sorted out. HGVs would be my choice for H2 vehicles, no diesel fumes belching out, trucks would have set routed and the hydrogen charging stations could be part of existing service stations ?

What’d happen if we all bought new EVs next year – could the grid cope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12RoTa4qs1E

Also, Cadogan is an idiot that’s best ignored.

Dunno.

We could find out I guess.

You could start small and make one city electric vehicle Central. Sydney because it has the most consumers and the most money to pay for it. If Sydney works out ok do another city.

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need for trials.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

What’d happen if we all bought new EVs next year – could the grid cope?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12RoTa4qs1E

Also, Cadogan is an idiot that’s best ignored.

Dunno.

We could find out I guess.

You could start small and make one city electric vehicle Central. Sydney because it has the most consumers and the most money to pay for it. If Sydney works out ok do another city.

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need for trials.

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Dunno.

We could find out I guess.

You could start small and make one city electric vehicle Central. Sydney because it has the most consumers and the most money to pay for it. If Sydney works out ok do another city.

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need for trials.

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

I say have a referendum because it will cost a heap of public money , we didn’t have a referendum on a 50 billion dollar sub programme

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Dunno.

We could find out I guess.

You could start small and make one city electric vehicle Central. Sydney because it has the most consumers and the most money to pay for it. If Sydney works out ok do another city.

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need for trials.

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need to.

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need for trials.

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need to.

How much would it cost ?

By rights, if it suits peoples lifestyles then EVs are the future, whether public money is used or not.

Just tax EVs at a slightly higher road tax. The road tax is used for other purposes other than roads anyway.

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need to.

How much would it cost ?

How much would what cost? There’s plenty of EV’s for sale & used right now and chargers are popping up all over the place at a good rate.

My fantasy project is converting a mini moke to electric

Perfect vehicle, small, lightweight

There are conversion kits you can buy

You could store the battery system around the vehicle for optimal grip

wookiemeister said:

You could store the battery system around the vehicle for optimal grip

There is already a commercially viable electric Moke on the market. I mean, they did think of it before you did.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

You could store the battery system around the vehicle for optimal grip

There is already a commercially viable electric Moke on the market. I mean, they did think of it before you did.

Its not as good and doesn’t go very fast

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

You could store the battery system around the vehicle for optimal grip

There is already a commercially viable electric Moke on the market. I mean, they did think of it before you did.

Its not as good and doesn’t go very fast

Oh well, take your plans to: The Morris trademark is currently owned by the China-based automotive company SAIC after being transferred from bankrupt subsidiary Nanjing Automotive.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

There is already a commercially viable electric Moke on the market. I mean, they did think of it before you did.

Its not as good and doesn’t go very fast

Oh well, take your plans to: The Morris trademark is currently owned by the China-based automotive company SAIC after being transferred from bankrupt subsidiary Nanjing Automotive.

No

The kit you buy has the “plans” you need.

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

Spiny Norman said:

They’ve been working all around the world for well over a decade, no need for trials.

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

I say have a referendum because it will cost a heap of public money , we didn’t have a referendum on a 50 billion dollar sub programme

400 billion

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

In Australia’s case just go ahead with it

Maybe we should have a referendum?

I say have a referendum because it will cost a heap of public money , we didn’t have a referendum on a 50 billion dollar sub programme

400 billion

I missed a zero

Another option

LPG,cleaner, cheaper, less pollution, quicker to convert

wookiemeister said:

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

I say have a referendum because it will cost a heap of public money , we didn’t have a referendum on a 50 billion dollar sub programme

400 billion

I missed a zero

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

dv said:

400 billion

I missed a zero

It might even be MORE given government mistakes.

The f35 was a 1 trillion dollar plane years overdue.

You grandchildren will still be paying for it

https://youtu.be/mFfAuL5×9qg?si=YEaczkITFyhXOV9E

Electric 2CV

Well imagine finding solutions to problems ¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-11/electric-car-tesla-charging-prototype-outback-stuart-highway/102953618

SCIENCE said:

Well imagine finding solutions to problems ¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-11/electric-car-tesla-charging-prototype-outback-stuart-highway/102953618

Not exactly a new idea- solar gridties been done for EV chargers for almost exactly a decade at least…
All it needs is that and a battery bank added (something Tesla is already been playing with for over half a decade aka ‘the big battery’ like in several states, but on a smaller scale)

This opened up down the road from me only a few km from where I was living in northern NSW- about 2014… true it was a gridtie at the time, but I think it now has battery storage as well, so it certainly isn’t a ‘difficult’ setup to install…

boppa said:

SCIENCE said:

Well imagine finding solutions to problems ¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-11/electric-car-tesla-charging-prototype-outback-stuart-highway/102953618

Not exactly a new idea- solar gridties been done for EV chargers for almost exactly a decade at least…
All it needs is that and a battery bank added (something Tesla is already been playing with for over half a decade aka ‘the big battery’ like in several states, but on a smaller scale)

This opened up down the road from me only a few km from where I was living in northern NSW- about 2014… true it was a gridtie at the time, but I think it now has battery storage as well, so it certainly isn’t a ‘difficult’ setup to install…

Yeah, I’ve parked there.

The old Macadamia Castle LOL

Used to go there all the time as a kid…

boppa said:

The old Macadamia Castle LOL

Used to go there all the time as a kid…

My grandkids from Norway, loved it.

roughbarked said:

boppa said:

The old Macadamia Castle LOL

Used to go there all the time as a kid…

My grandkids from Norway, loved it.

Funnily enough, I drove past it often and have only been in the once.

I was expecting one of those clunky 13 Amp UK plugs & sockets, Boris. ;-)

Bulgarian Umbrella said:

I was expecting one of those clunky 13 Amp UK plugs & sockets, Boris. ;-)

Something from Lucas perhaps?

The Prince of Darkness?

Bulgarian Umbrella said:

The Prince of Darkness?

That’d be him.

Bulgarian Umbrella said:

I was expecting one of those clunky 13 Amp UK plugs & sockets, Boris. ;-)

artists haven’t a clue. Plus there is no earth pin.

Bogsnorkler said:

Bulgarian Umbrella said:

I was expecting one of those clunky 13 Amp UK plugs & sockets, Boris. ;-)

artists haven’t a clue. Plus there is no earth pin.

That’s because it’s in the air, silly.

Michael V said:

Bogsnorkler said:

Bulgarian Umbrella said:

I was expecting one of those clunky 13 Amp UK plugs & sockets, Boris. ;-)

artists haven’t a clue. Plus there is no earth pin.

That’s because it’s in the air, silly.

:)

roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

Bogsnorkler said:

artists haven’t a clue. Plus there is no earth pin.

That’s because it’s in the air, silly.

:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Outward

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

https://youtu.be/fZozUReGOq4

The truth about ev battery recycling

He’s widely recognised as being a biased idiot in the car community. Don’t believe anything he says.

Cadogan???
PMSL- he’s a bloody idiot…
Although, I must say, at least in the video shown- he quite accurately showed one thing…

He’s showing the contents of his head falling out…

boppa said:

Spiny Norman said:

wookiemeister said:

https://youtu.be/fZozUReGOq4

The truth about ev battery recycling

He’s widely recognised as being a biased idiot in the car community. Don’t believe anything he says.

Cadogan???
PMSL- he’s a bloody idiot…
Although, I must say, at least in the video shown- he quite accurately showed one thing…

He’s showing the contents of his head falling out…

I speed him up when ( if) I listen to him. He’s rude and obnoxious – but I am used to dealing / listening with/ to such people. When he gets too abusive I just switch off.

However – that doesn’t mean he’s completely wrong, EV fires have taken down ships

The latest method is to transport them in ships with chilled salt water that can be pumped into the car.

The problem with John is that if you are explaining sonething that doesn’t conform with what they think in real life you have to be gentle

Eg

Ahh hang on , is that the machine I was saying needed a new X

Silence, pause – its from company A

Ahh right, do you remember I was saying it needed that new part ? Well that’s interesting, I think that’s why that 1000 dollar assy broke – when you don’t replace that 30 part it breaks the 1000 part. Well just thinking

You walk away to do sonething else

When you see the same damage crop again AGAIN , you make mention again very briefly , again and again again till they finally get it.

The easiest way to stop the damage is just to replace the achilles heel part of the machine as fast as possible before more damage is done or… I just get a return job scheduled in for someone else to replace.

EV fires are extremely rare- in fact ICE cars are 60 times more likely to catch fire than BEV’s…

The fires per 100k figure is the most damming- as it compensates for sales numbers- a car with 10 fires per 100k sales that only sold 5000 is FAR worse than a car that caught fire 20 times, but sold a million…

There’s been a LOT of BS being spread by some that BYD ‘catch fire all the time’- actually considering their sales numbers (nearly 2 million in China alone in 2022- more than Tesla sold worldwide for the same time period, only 1.2 million against BYD’s 1.8 million) there were 11 BYD fires…

A lot of this is that BYD don’t use Li-PO like Tesla does but the far more stable LiFePO4 chemistry- it is EXTREMELY rare for a LFP battery to ‘catch fire’ indeed- thats the case with the LiPO ones…

Indeed if you are buying a T3 Tesla- it also has LFP batteries in it…

Made by BYD no less!!!

It isn’t as if BYD doesn’t know what they are doing- they have been in the EV game just as long as Tesla (the Atto3 is based on the E6 sold in china- first sold in 2009!!!) and they have been making trucks and buses since 2012- something that Tesla is still not capable of doing…

In fact if you have been on any of the ‘ElectricBlu’ buses in Sydney since 2016- you were riding on a BYD bus…

“The fires per 100k figure is the most damming- as it compensates for sales numbers- a car with 10 fires per 100k sales that only sold 5000 is FAR worse than a car that caught fire 20 times, but sold a million…”
should be
The fires per 100k figure is the most damming- as it compensates for sales numbers- a car with 10 fires total that only sold 5000 is FAR worse than a car that caught fire 20 times, but sold a million…

Good shit if legit’.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/solar-powered-electric-car-that-can-be-driven-for-months-without-charging-goes-on-sale/

The Lightyear One, a solar-powered electric vehicle designed in the Netherlands and recently tested in Italy, completed 400km on a single charge while driving at a constant speed of 130km/h.

Regular driving will result in range of 725km (WLTP), according to the manufacturer.

Thanks to its array of solar panels harvesting energy from the sun to charge the 60kWh battery, the Lightyear One is, according to its maker, able to live off-the-grid.

Five square metres of solar panels cover the One’s roof, bonnet and tail and are capable of harnessing up to 12km of range every hour. That means during a sunny eight hour workday, a parked up Lightyear One could harvest 96km of driving range – more than enough for most people’s commutes.

Even in cloudy conditions, its maker claims the Lightyear One that around 40km of range can be harvested.

Even without harnessing the power of the sun, the Lightyear One’s 60kWh battery array provides a claimed 725km of range, making it, according to the manufacturer, the most energy efficient electric vehicle on the market.

The recent 130km/h test returned a figure of 14.1kWh/100km. That number drops to 8.3kWh/100km over normal driving conditions, according to the manufacturer.

—

But sure plenty of 130 km/h trips to be made in Police Nanny State Australia¡

JudgeMental said:

captain_spalding said:

JudgeMental said:

LOL, ICE cars catch fire in larger numbers. It isn’t that they can catch fire it is that they are harder to put out. plus with the newer battery chemistries they don’t tend to just catch fire as often.

Well, aren’t there are WHOLE LOT more ICE vehicles around right now than EVs? Could that have something to do with the larger number of ICE fires?

And, you’re overlooking what i said. There may very well be more reliable and much safer battery chemistries and constructions around.

And, the Chinese manufacturers may very well employ those chemistries and methods. At the start. But, if would be no surprise at all, and in keeping with a trend, if, eventually, they deviate from those chemistries and methods in pursuit of slightly higher profits, to the cost of the eventual users.

you think they don’t take into account the ice vs electric stats?

we mean it’s all a bit mobile-telephones-cause-cancer-oh-wait-now-they-cause-children-behavioural-problems moral panic but

there’s probably some Deep™ State™ censorship and suppression conspiracy going on to explain why there has been about a 95% reduction in news about EV fires in the past 18 months

SCIENCE said:

JudgeMental said:

captain_spalding said:

Well, aren’t there are WHOLE LOT more ICE vehicles around right now than EVs? Could that have something to do with the larger number of ICE fires?

And, you’re overlooking what i said. There may very well be more reliable and much safer battery chemistries and constructions around.

And, the Chinese manufacturers may very well employ those chemistries and methods. At the start. But, if would be no surprise at all, and in keeping with a trend, if, eventually, they deviate from those chemistries and methods in pursuit of slightly higher profits, to the cost of the eventual users.

you think they don’t take into account the ice vs electric stats?

we mean it’s all a bit mobile-telephones-cause-cancer-oh-wait-now-they-cause-children-behavioural-problems moral panic but

there’s probably some Deep™ State™ censorship and suppression conspiracy going on to explain why there has been about a 95% reduction in news about EV fires in the past 18 months

That would be the only rational explanation

Tamb said:

JudgeMental said:

captain_spalding said:

JudgeMental said:

Tamb said:

JudgeMental said:

Tamb said:

captain_spalding said:

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

captain_spalding said:

BBC News:

No more of that long, tiresome waiting.

Now, you’ll be able to see your Chinese EV burst into flames in only a couple of minutes.

so back to the good old days of combustion engines The Ancients They Knew then

Lol

It’ll probably follow the usual quality decline in Chinese products.

They’ll start off making a you-beaut, reliable, worthwhile product. Then, once a market share is established (and once certain groups have got theirs e.g. the upper levels of the CCP), the pathological urge of Chinese manufacturers to nudge their profits up by any means at all will lead to a lot of corners being cut, and the substitution of poorer-quality components, and just-barely-good-enough manufacturing processes.

And the number of battery-related fires goes up significantly.

An indication of falling quality is the increasing size of panel gaps.

LOL, ICE cars catch fire in larger numbers. It isn’t that they can catch fire it is that they are harder to put out. plus with the newer battery chemistries they don’t tend to just catch fire as often.

Not sure that is accurate JM.

yeah, it is. I’ve read enough about the comparisons.

Well, aren’t there are WHOLE LOT more ICE vehicles around right now than EVs? Could that have something to do with the larger number of ICE fires?

And, you’re overlooking what i said. There may very well be more reliable and much safer battery chemistries and constructions around.

And, the Chinese manufacturers may very well employ those chemistries and methods. At the start. But, if would be no surprise at all, and in keeping with a trend, if, eventually, they deviate from those chemistries and methods in pursuit of slightly higher profits, to the cost of the eventual users.

you think they don’t take into account the ice vs electric stats?

ICE fires are usually maliciously lit. Battery fires seem to be spontaneous.

nobody would torch an electric vehicle to prove a point, we swear

Witty Rejoinder said:

JudgeMental said:

JudgeMental said:

so, just like any manufacturer where profits count over all?

I mean, it is just the usual china bashing stuff you love.

Cap’n does love to make unfounded declarations about things he doesn’t know very much about.

nah fuck off we’re far better drivers of our own ignorance

also we agree with captain_spalding that there is frequently a quality problem with Made In China but we are far from convinced that EV are the place to look for it maybe look at other oils like food oils

Kingy said:

Tamb said:

JudgeMental said:

you think they don’t take into account the ice vs electric stats?

ICE fires are usually maliciously lit. Battery fires seem to be spontaneous.

In the last 20 years our fire brigades have attended at least 30 ICE fires, of which 2 were likely deliberate, and 1 electric car fire. That poor bugger had been informed that there was a recall on his model due to a fault that could cause a fire so he booked it in for Monday arvo. It caught fire in his garage early Monday morning.

→ anecdotal-evidence-based-argumentation forum

SCIENCE said:

Kingy said:

Tamb said:

ICE fires are usually maliciously lit. Battery fires seem to be spontaneous.

In the last 20 years our fire brigades have attended at least 30 ICE fires, of which 2 were likely deliberate, and 1 electric car fire. That poor bugger had been informed that there was a recall on his model due to a fault that could cause a fire so he booked it in for Monday arvo. It caught fire in his garage early Monday morning.

→ anecdotal-evidence-based-argumentation forum

That’s just the ICE spice

Firefighters and paramedics have been called to a Kangaroo Island fish and chip shop following a gas explosion.

A woman has suffered burns to her face, hands and legs, and the front of the shop was blown out by the blast.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-17/woman-suffers-burns-in-gas-explosion-at-fish-and-chip-shop/104238326

don’t know about any of that but we can tell yous that the burns would have been much worse if they used electricity instead of that gas

anyway here’s the good news for the day, everything else is probably downhill from here

https://interestingengineering.com/energy/li-ion-battery-five-million-miles

A new type of lithium-ion battery with a single crystal electrode can withstand over 20,000 charge-discharge cycles before hitting the 80 percent capacity cutoff.

“The great thing about doing this kind of measurement at a synchrotron is we can actually look at this at a microscopic level without having to take the cell apart,” said Toby Bond, senior scientist at CLS, in a press release. Inside a regular battery, lithium forces atoms of the electrode material to expand and contract, leading to microscopic cracking. “Eventually, there were so many cracks that the electrode was essentially pulverized,” added Bond. However, the battery with a single crystal electrode showed no such signs. Instead, the researchers could not distinguish between a new cell and a six-year-old one.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ad88a8

SCIENCE said:

anyway here’s the good news for the day, everything else is probably downhill from here

https://interestingengineering.com/energy/li-ion-battery-five-million-miles

A new type of lithium-ion battery with a single crystal electrode can withstand over 20,000 charge-discharge cycles before hitting the 80 percent capacity cutoff.

“The great thing about doing this kind of measurement at a synchrotron is we can actually look at this at a microscopic level without having to take the cell apart,” said Toby Bond, senior scientist at CLS, in a press release. Inside a regular battery, lithium forces atoms of the electrode material to expand and contract, leading to microscopic cracking. “Eventually, there were so many cracks that the electrode was essentially pulverized,” added Bond. However, the battery with a single crystal electrode showed no such signs. Instead, the researchers could not distinguish between a new cell and a six-year-old one.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ad88a8

Nice. Thanks.

:)