Date: 27/08/2023 06:41:32
From: dv
ID: 2068976
Subject: New Zealand politics

We are two months out from the next NZ election, and it looks like it might be a close one.

Current polling suggests the following count out of the 120 seats.

Nationals 42
ACT 12

Labour 40
Greens 14
Maori 5

New Zealand First 7

—-

ACT and Nationals are the two major right of centre parties.

NZF is a libertarian populist party that historically has formed coalitions with both Labour and the Nationals, but the boffin are saying that they are more likely to link.with Nats this time.

Greens and Maori are expected to support Labour to form government.

So bottom line is that right now a National led coalition is at about 61 and a Labour led coalition is at about 59.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/08/2023 10:39:31
From: Woodie
ID: 2069306
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

I see it’s now Dame Jacinda Ardern.

Helen Clarke didn’t get a damedom.

But bring back Sir Piggy, I say. They’d all vote for Piggy. They did then, and they should now, hey what but.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 08:27:22
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2072861
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

There is so much crap on Quora I have been seriously thinking about dumping it, but just occasionally there is something rather good, like this:

“Does New Zealand really think that Maori science is as great as western science?
There’s a long story behind this question. Let me try to give you a condensed version—but this isn’t a small issue.

The Polynesian people first landed on the islands that we call New Zealand about 700 or so years ago. The Polynesians were accomplished maritime explorers, and were able to make extremely long ocean voyages, although they had no form of writing, and metal was unknown to them. Once they had settled, a distinctively Māori culture developed.

In common with other human groups in other places, they hunted all the megafauna to extinction quite quickly (such as the moa) and thereafter learned to “live in harmony with nature” (the alternative was starvation).

Captain James Cook reached New Zealand in October 1769, and literally put the country on the map. Thereafter there was frequent contact with European sailors. At this point the Māori people were a disparate group of tribes who scuffled with one another frequently.

The Brits made a reasonably determined effort to exterminate the Māori, but found them too resourceful and tenacious. So they offered them a treaty, which promised them full membership as subjects of the British Empire (i.e. nothing) in exchange for land and natural resources (i.e. whatever they wanted). Later the Brits made efforts to “civilise” the Māori, bringing them Christianity, Westernised education, V8 SUV’s, American fast food, and smartphones. There were systematic efforts to eradicate Māori culture; for example, punishing children for speaking Māori in schools.

Over the last few decades, many Māori have made concerted efforts to re-establish their identity and culture, with considerable success. Now Māori culture and language is everywhere: taught in schools; bilingual signs all over the place; Māori cultural observances in every public gathering, and so on. Māori iconography is ubiquitous.

In February 2020, the New Zealand Cabinet proposed several changes to the country’s secondary school curriculum National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) including according equal status to mātauranga Māori (indigenous knowledge). (My emphasis). That meant that indigenous Māori knowledge is now officially as important as other classroom subjects, and the plan was that it should be taught alongside science in the classroom.

In 2021 a group of senior academics at the University of Auckland wrote a letter to The Listener magazine, in which they said that Māori indigenous knowledge is undoubtedly valuable from a cultural and historical perspective, but it doesn’t qualify as science. Also, science isn’t a European invention, or an evil tool for indigenous oppression, but has contributions from all of humanity for the benefit of all of humanity. It’s worth reading the full letter.

But there was a huge backlash against it, with people falling over themselves to distance themselves from the contents of the letter. The Royal Society Te Apārangi of New Zealand (which is trying to be on the same footing as the Royal Society), launched an investigation into the authors of the letter, some of whom were Fellows. It said:

The Society strongly upholds the value of mātauranga Māori and rejects the narrow and outmoded definition of science outlined in .

Oh, you poor, virtue-signalling idiots.

Meanwhile the vice-chancellor of Auckland University (where several of the authors worked) wrote that the Listener letter:

caused considerable hurt and dismay among our staff, students and alumni

although, when challenged, she couldn’t actually point to any communication of hurt or dismay she had received from anyone.

There was, thereafter, a bit of an academic scuffle, with scientists and bloggers around the world weighing in. Lots of people wrote to the NZ Royal Society Te Apārangi, including me (they did not reply to me) to protest. Richard Dawkins inevitably stuck his oar in. Many prominent members of the Royal Society Te Apārangi threatened (rightly) to resign if the situation didn’t change. At the end of March 2022, 73 Royal Society fellows (out of about 400) signed a motion of no confidence in the Society over its treatment of the signatories of the letter. Oops.

Since then, things have quietly gone away. The vice chancellor of Auckland University promised a symposium to address the question of Māori indigenous knowledge vs science. That was pushed back and then quietly cancelled.

Meanwhile, the Royal Society Te Apārangi has decided not to pursue the authors of the Listener letter any further. Good plan, folks, well done.

So, this brings me back to my answer to the original question. There isn’t “Māori science” and “Western science”. There’s only “science”.

Through whatever means, the Māori people made meaningful discoveries about the world and how to survive in it. They had—and have—a rich tradition of myth, storytelling and spirituality to make sense of their place in the universe. I celebrate and value that knowledge and tradition, and I would not wish to take away the smallest part of it.

But it’s not science! You can’t pretend it’s science. You can’t teach it as if it’s science. You can’t insist that it’s an “equal but different” point of view. It doesn’t belong in the science curriculum.

And when people stand up to point this out, as the Listener authors did, you can’t start slinging mud at them just because their viewpoint is unpalatable to a particular political agenda.

The Royal Society Te Apārangi has (rightly) lost a considerable amount of reputation internationally for how it has handled this situation, and I don’t think the University of Auckland has fared all that much better.”

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 08:40:08
From: Michael V
ID: 2072863
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

The Rev Dodgson said:


There is so much crap on Quora I have been seriously thinking about dumping it, but just occasionally there is something rather good, like this:

“Does New Zealand really think that Maori science is as great as western science?
There’s a long story behind this question. Let me try to give you a condensed version—but this isn’t a small issue.

The Polynesian people first landed on the islands that we call New Zealand about 700 or so years ago. The Polynesians were accomplished maritime explorers, and were able to make extremely long ocean voyages, although they had no form of writing, and metal was unknown to them. Once they had settled, a distinctively Māori culture developed.

In common with other human groups in other places, they hunted all the megafauna to extinction quite quickly (such as the moa) and thereafter learned to “live in harmony with nature” (the alternative was starvation).

Captain James Cook reached New Zealand in October 1769, and literally put the country on the map. Thereafter there was frequent contact with European sailors. At this point the Māori people were a disparate group of tribes who scuffled with one another frequently.

The Brits made a reasonably determined effort to exterminate the Māori, but found them too resourceful and tenacious. So they offered them a treaty, which promised them full membership as subjects of the British Empire (i.e. nothing) in exchange for land and natural resources (i.e. whatever they wanted). Later the Brits made efforts to “civilise” the Māori, bringing them Christianity, Westernised education, V8 SUV’s, American fast food, and smartphones. There were systematic efforts to eradicate Māori culture; for example, punishing children for speaking Māori in schools.

Over the last few decades, many Māori have made concerted efforts to re-establish their identity and culture, with considerable success. Now Māori culture and language is everywhere: taught in schools; bilingual signs all over the place; Māori cultural observances in every public gathering, and so on. Māori iconography is ubiquitous.

In February 2020, the New Zealand Cabinet proposed several changes to the country’s secondary school curriculum National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) including according equal status to mātauranga Māori (indigenous knowledge). (My emphasis). That meant that indigenous Māori knowledge is now officially as important as other classroom subjects, and the plan was that it should be taught alongside science in the classroom.

In 2021 a group of senior academics at the University of Auckland wrote a letter to The Listener magazine, in which they said that Māori indigenous knowledge is undoubtedly valuable from a cultural and historical perspective, but it doesn’t qualify as science. Also, science isn’t a European invention, or an evil tool for indigenous oppression, but has contributions from all of humanity for the benefit of all of humanity. It’s worth reading the full letter.

But there was a huge backlash against it, with people falling over themselves to distance themselves from the contents of the letter. The Royal Society Te Apārangi of New Zealand (which is trying to be on the same footing as the Royal Society), launched an investigation into the authors of the letter, some of whom were Fellows. It said:

The Society strongly upholds the value of mātauranga Māori and rejects the narrow and outmoded definition of science outlined in .

Oh, you poor, virtue-signalling idiots.

Meanwhile the vice-chancellor of Auckland University (where several of the authors worked) wrote that the Listener letter:

caused considerable hurt and dismay among our staff, students and alumni

although, when challenged, she couldn’t actually point to any communication of hurt or dismay she had received from anyone.

There was, thereafter, a bit of an academic scuffle, with scientists and bloggers around the world weighing in. Lots of people wrote to the NZ Royal Society Te Apārangi, including me (they did not reply to me) to protest. Richard Dawkins inevitably stuck his oar in. Many prominent members of the Royal Society Te Apārangi threatened (rightly) to resign if the situation didn’t change. At the end of March 2022, 73 Royal Society fellows (out of about 400) signed a motion of no confidence in the Society over its treatment of the signatories of the letter. Oops.

Since then, things have quietly gone away. The vice chancellor of Auckland University promised a symposium to address the question of Māori indigenous knowledge vs science. That was pushed back and then quietly cancelled.

Meanwhile, the Royal Society Te Apārangi has decided not to pursue the authors of the Listener letter any further. Good plan, folks, well done.

So, this brings me back to my answer to the original question. There isn’t “Māori science” and “Western science”. There’s only “science”.

Through whatever means, the Māori people made meaningful discoveries about the world and how to survive in it. They had—and have—a rich tradition of myth, storytelling and spirituality to make sense of their place in the universe. I celebrate and value that knowledge and tradition, and I would not wish to take away the smallest part of it.

But it’s not science! You can’t pretend it’s science. You can’t teach it as if it’s science. You can’t insist that it’s an “equal but different” point of view. It doesn’t belong in the science curriculum.

And when people stand up to point this out, as the Listener authors did, you can’t start slinging mud at them just because their viewpoint is unpalatable to a particular political agenda.

The Royal Society Te Apārangi has (rightly) lost a considerable amount of reputation internationally for how it has handled this situation, and I don’t think the University of Auckland has fared all that much better.”

Very fair.

I agree that science is science and traditional knowledge is different to that.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 08:44:54
From: roughbarked
ID: 2072864
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

Michael V said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

There is so much crap on Quora I have been seriously thinking about dumping it, but just occasionally there is something rather good, like this:

“Does New Zealand really think that Maori science is as great as western science?
There’s a long story behind this question. Let me try to give you a condensed version—but this isn’t a small issue.

The Polynesian people first landed on the islands that we call New Zealand about 700 or so years ago. The Polynesians were accomplished maritime explorers, and were able to make extremely long ocean voyages, although they had no form of writing, and metal was unknown to them. Once they had settled, a distinctively Māori culture developed.

In common with other human groups in other places, they hunted all the megafauna to extinction quite quickly (such as the moa) and thereafter learned to “live in harmony with nature” (the alternative was starvation).

Captain James Cook reached New Zealand in October 1769, and literally put the country on the map. Thereafter there was frequent contact with European sailors. At this point the Māori people were a disparate group of tribes who scuffled with one another frequently.

The Brits made a reasonably determined effort to exterminate the Māori, but found them too resourceful and tenacious. So they offered them a treaty, which promised them full membership as subjects of the British Empire (i.e. nothing) in exchange for land and natural resources (i.e. whatever they wanted). Later the Brits made efforts to “civilise” the Māori, bringing them Christianity, Westernised education, V8 SUV’s, American fast food, and smartphones. There were systematic efforts to eradicate Māori culture; for example, punishing children for speaking Māori in schools.

Over the last few decades, many Māori have made concerted efforts to re-establish their identity and culture, with considerable success. Now Māori culture and language is everywhere: taught in schools; bilingual signs all over the place; Māori cultural observances in every public gathering, and so on. Māori iconography is ubiquitous.

In February 2020, the New Zealand Cabinet proposed several changes to the country’s secondary school curriculum National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA) including according equal status to mātauranga Māori (indigenous knowledge). (My emphasis). That meant that indigenous Māori knowledge is now officially as important as other classroom subjects, and the plan was that it should be taught alongside science in the classroom.

In 2021 a group of senior academics at the University of Auckland wrote a letter to The Listener magazine, in which they said that Māori indigenous knowledge is undoubtedly valuable from a cultural and historical perspective, but it doesn’t qualify as science. Also, science isn’t a European invention, or an evil tool for indigenous oppression, but has contributions from all of humanity for the benefit of all of humanity. It’s worth reading the full letter.

But there was a huge backlash against it, with people falling over themselves to distance themselves from the contents of the letter. The Royal Society Te Apārangi of New Zealand (which is trying to be on the same footing as the Royal Society), launched an investigation into the authors of the letter, some of whom were Fellows. It said:

The Society strongly upholds the value of mātauranga Māori and rejects the narrow and outmoded definition of science outlined in .

Oh, you poor, virtue-signalling idiots.

Meanwhile the vice-chancellor of Auckland University (where several of the authors worked) wrote that the Listener letter:

caused considerable hurt and dismay among our staff, students and alumni

although, when challenged, she couldn’t actually point to any communication of hurt or dismay she had received from anyone.

There was, thereafter, a bit of an academic scuffle, with scientists and bloggers around the world weighing in. Lots of people wrote to the NZ Royal Society Te Apārangi, including me (they did not reply to me) to protest. Richard Dawkins inevitably stuck his oar in. Many prominent members of the Royal Society Te Apārangi threatened (rightly) to resign if the situation didn’t change. At the end of March 2022, 73 Royal Society fellows (out of about 400) signed a motion of no confidence in the Society over its treatment of the signatories of the letter. Oops.

Since then, things have quietly gone away. The vice chancellor of Auckland University promised a symposium to address the question of Māori indigenous knowledge vs science. That was pushed back and then quietly cancelled.

Meanwhile, the Royal Society Te Apārangi has decided not to pursue the authors of the Listener letter any further. Good plan, folks, well done.

So, this brings me back to my answer to the original question. There isn’t “Māori science” and “Western science”. There’s only “science”.

Through whatever means, the Māori people made meaningful discoveries about the world and how to survive in it. They had—and have—a rich tradition of myth, storytelling and spirituality to make sense of their place in the universe. I celebrate and value that knowledge and tradition, and I would not wish to take away the smallest part of it.

But it’s not science! You can’t pretend it’s science. You can’t teach it as if it’s science. You can’t insist that it’s an “equal but different” point of view. It doesn’t belong in the science curriculum.

And when people stand up to point this out, as the Listener authors did, you can’t start slinging mud at them just because their viewpoint is unpalatable to a particular political agenda.

The Royal Society Te Apārangi has (rightly) lost a considerable amount of reputation internationally for how it has handled this situation, and I don’t think the University of Auckland has fared all that much better.”

Very fair.

I agree that science is science and traditional knowledge is different to that.

Yep.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 08:57:28
From: captain_spalding
ID: 2072869
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

roughbarked said:


Michael V said:

Very fair.

I agree that science is science and traditional knowledge is different to that.

Yep.

Nonetheless, social and political and religious groups will continue to demand and press for recognition of their ‘ideas’ as being equal to anything in the fields of science.

Not necessarily because they believe it to be true, but because, if they can pressure ‘the authorities’ into accepting that notion, then it hands them social, political, and academic power. They will have to be consulted on and, essentially, give their approval to what is taught to who, how it is taught, and on any new developments in science, while not having to produce anything new themselves.

It could be viewed as an attempt at reverse colonisation: taking over the institutions of your conquerors and oppressors, whether real or imagined.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 09:00:51
From: roughbarked
ID: 2072872
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

captain_spalding said:


roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

Very fair.

I agree that science is science and traditional knowledge is different to that.

Yep.

Nonetheless, social and political and religious groups will continue to demand and press for recognition of their ‘ideas’ as being equal to anything in the fields of science.

Not necessarily because they believe it to be true, but because, if they can pressure ‘the authorities’ into accepting that notion, then it hands them social, political, and academic power. They will have to be consulted on and, essentially, give their approval to what is taught to who, how it is taught, and on any new developments in science, while not having to produce anything new themselves.

It could be viewed as an attempt at reverse colonisation: taking over the institutions of your conquerors and oppressors, whether real or imagined.

Interesting perspective.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 09:02:17
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 2072874
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

“The Brits made a reasonably determined effort to exterminate the Māori,”

Stops reading.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 09:04:47
From: captain_spalding
ID: 2072876
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

Peak Warming Man said:


“The Brits made a reasonably determined effort to exterminate the Māori,”

Stops reading.

I do seem to recall reading of some times when the Maoris also made determined attempts to exterminate any Brits that they found.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 09:10:14
From: roughbarked
ID: 2072877
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

captain_spalding said:


Peak Warming Man said:

“The Brits made a reasonably determined effort to exterminate the Māori,”

Stops reading.

I do seem to recall reading of some times when the Maoris also made determined attempts to exterminate any Brits that they found.

They did like to collect heads.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 10:18:18
From: dv
ID: 2072909
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

The Rev Dodgson said:


There is so much crap on Quora I have been seriously thinking about dumping it, but just occasionally there is something rather good, like this:

Without disagreeing with the piece, I’d reiterate that there have historically been blind spots in Western science in biology and anthropology etc caused by ethnocentrism, and although things are better now we do have to at least be aware of the possibility that it can still happen.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/09/2023 10:34:33
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2072912
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:


There is so much crap on Quora I have been seriously thinking about dumping it, but just occasionally there is something rather good, like this:

Without disagreeing with the piece, I’d reiterate that there have historically been blind spots in Western science in biology and anthropology etc caused by ethnocentrism, and although things are better now we do have to at least be aware of the possibility that it can still happen.

Sure, and I’m sure there are areas of study where the knowledge of indigenous communities could add to accepted scientific knowledge.

Tet another not either/or thing.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/10/2023 15:21:49
From: dv
ID: 2082781
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

The Essential poll rather reaffirms that the NZ First party will be kingmakers after this weekend’s election. They are not an easy fit for either the National or Labour party: broadly in favour of nationalisation and welfare but anti-immigrant and somewhat conservative on social issues.

If polling holds, the result in the 120 seat house would be something like

Labour 39, Green 14, Maori 2
Nationals 44, ACT 10
NZ First 11

The Greens and Maori can be relied upon to support Labour, and the ACT will support the Nats.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/10/2023 22:52:34
From: dv
ID: 2084036
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

The Labour party had been defeated, with the new government likely to be made up of a coalition of Nationals and ACT.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/10/2023 22:54:57
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2084037
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

dv said:


The Labour party had been defeated, with the new government likely to be made up of a coalition of Nationals and ACT.

Oh, pwm said there was good news from NZ.

Must have been talking about something else the I suppose.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/10/2023 23:02:37
From: dv
ID: 2084038
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

The Labour party had been defeated, with the new government likely to be made up of a coalition of Nationals and ACT.

Oh, pwm said there was good news from NZ.

Must have been talking about something else the I suppose.

They are 3 from 3 in the cricket world cup.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/11/2023 17:27:24
From: dv
ID: 2090864
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

After all the counting the results were not so good for the National Party as initially thought, and they will need to negotiate for the support of NZ First if they are to govern.

The final seat count was
Labour 34
Greens 15
Maori 6

National 48
ACT 11

NZ First 8

This effectively is 55 for a left alliance, 59 for a right alliance, with NZ First on 8 as centrist kingmakers in a 122 seat parliament.

It seems likely that NZ First will come to some accommodation with the Nationals.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/01/2024 19:31:16
From: dv
ID: 2118961
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

As expected, the new National government has cancelled the Auckland light rail project. The project was in fairness plagued by “mission creep” and might have had better survival odds if they had stuck to original simple plan.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/10/2024 00:30:11
From: dv
ID: 2205821
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

Jacinda Ardern has been made a dame.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/10/2024 00:32:29
From: sarahs mum
ID: 2205822
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

dv said:


Jacinda Ardern has been made a dame.

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 18/10/2024 00:41:08
From: furious
ID: 2205823
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

dv said:


Jacinda Ardern has been made a dame.

For outstanding efforts in acquiescence…

Reply Quote

Date: 18/10/2024 01:46:52
From: captain_spalding
ID: 2205827
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

dv said:


Jacinda Ardern has been made a dame.

Ain’t nuthin like…

Reply Quote

Date: 18/10/2024 01:48:50
From: AussieDJ
ID: 2205828
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

captain_spalding said:


dv said:

Jacinda Ardern has been made a dame.

Ain’t nuthin like…

+1

Reply Quote

Date: 19/11/2024 21:46:56
From: dv
ID: 2217016
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/19/tens-of-thousands-to-converge-on-nz-parliament-as-march-to-protest-controversial-maori-rights-bill-reaches-capital?CMP=soc_567

Tens of thousands march on NZ parliament in protest against Māori treaty bill

Reply Quote

Date: 19/11/2024 21:56:49
From: sarahs mum
ID: 2217020
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

dv said:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/19/tens-of-thousands-to-converge-on-nz-parliament-as-march-to-protest-controversial-maori-rights-bill-reaches-capital?CMP=soc_567

Tens of thousands march on NZ parliament in protest against Māori treaty bill

twas a turnout.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/11/2024 22:18:19
From: sarahs mum
ID: 2217981
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

MP rips up bill, leads haka as NZ parliament erupts over Waitangi treaty bill

link

Viral haka prompts calls for harsher punishments for MPs disrupting Parliament

link

Reply Quote

Date: 22/11/2024 22:30:17
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2217984
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

in reckoning the numbers of people of the Commonwealth, or of a State or other part of the Commonwealth, aboriginal natives shall not be counted

Reply Quote

Date: 22/11/2024 22:37:08
From: Bubblecar
ID: 2217988
Subject: re: New Zealand politics

sarahs mum said:


MP rips up bill, leads haka as NZ parliament erupts over Waitangi treaty bill

link

Viral haka prompts calls for harsher punishments for MPs disrupting Parliament

link

Heh, fat ol’ fucker not like dat.

Reply Quote