Not enough is known or spoken of.
This one is an interesting tale. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-07/how-traditional-owners-used-marri-trees-to-gather-water-wa/102799998

In it, Professor Hopper said: “If you did what the Noongars did, you snip out the lead shoot and wait a hundred and fifty years,” Professor Hopper said.

“This is really long-term horticultural management for cultural purposes, its extraordinary.”

>Maybe it takes that long in a Marri but I’ve seen it in other species in a far shorter time span.

Have photographed the phenomena in introduced trees such as Poinciana, obviously not made by an indigenous person. Which tree wasn’t more than 35 years old at the time I photgraphed it.

roughbarked said:

Not enough is known or spoken of.
This one is an interesting tale. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-07/how-traditional-owners-used-marri-trees-to-gather-water-wa/102799998

In it, Professor Hopper said: “If you did what the Noongars did, you snip out the lead shoot and wait a hundred and fifty years,” Professor Hopper said.

“This is really long-term horticultural management for cultural purposes, its extraordinary.”

>Maybe it takes that long in a Marri but I’ve seen it in other species in a far shorter time span.

Have photographed the phenomena in introduced trees such as Poinciana, obviously not made by an indigenous person. Which tree wasn’t more than 35 years old at the time I photgraphed it.

Just read that on the ABC. I’d never heard of this, but then I am not from WA.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-07/how-traditional-owners-used-marri-trees-to-gather-water-wa/102799998

Sorry, didn’t mean to double up on the link.

buffy said:

Sorry, didn’t mean to double up on the link.

:) twice as useful.

They make interesting photographic play.

roughbarked said:

They make interesting photographic play.

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

roughbarked said:

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

because if you can show one small part of an argument is wrong then you can dismiss the whole argument.

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

because if you can show one small part of an argument is wrong then you can dismiss the whole argument.

claim. might be better.

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

because if you can show one small part of an argument is wrong then you can dismiss the whole argument.

I’m sure you know my response to that :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

because if you can show one small part of an argument is wrong then you can dismiss the whole argument.

I’m sure you know my response to that :)

Tell rennick because that is his thinking most likely. judging by this comment

“…“I do know that the goal post has been shifted in my lifetime from 20,000 years, to 40,000 years, to 60,000 years.”…”

obviously doesn’t know how science works.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

It is some sort of distraction from talking about the voice, I guess.

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bogsnorkler said:

because if you can show one small part of an argument is wrong then you can dismiss the whole argument.

I’m sure you know my response to that :)

Tell rennick because that is his thinking most likely. judging by this comment

“…“I do know that the goal post has been shifted in my lifetime from 20,000 years, to 40,000 years, to 60,000 years.”…”

obviously doesn’t know how science works.

This would be the truth of the matter.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

RMIT ABC Fact Check

Coalition senator Gerard Rennick has questioned the basis for claims Australia’s Indigenous history dates back more than 60,000 years. What do the experts say?

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

It is some sort of distraction from talking about the voice, I guess.

60000 is a bit more than some estimates, a bit less than others, and it seems a reasonable round number representation of the uncertainty.

It seems weird for him to talk about “goalposts “ shifting during his lifetime. What’s happened is that evidence has come in. Shit, Mungo Man was discovered during his life time.

So fuck that guy anyway, I don’t think he’s operating in a good faith spirit of scientific enquiry.

dv said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

What difference does it make to a politician whether it was 65,000, 50,000 or even 20,000 anyway?

It is some sort of distraction from talking about the voice, I guess.

60000 is a bit more than some estimates, a bit less than others, and it seems a reasonable round number representation of the uncertainty.

It seems weird for him to talk about “goalposts “ shifting during his lifetime. What’s happened is that evidence has come in. Shit, Mungo Man was discovered during his life time.

So fuck that guy anyway, I don’t think he’s operating in a good faith spirit of scientific enquiry.

Yeah. This.

New evidence of first Australians 65,000 years ago

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

The time when humans arrived in Australia has been an evolving story of its own. Early ideas in the 1970s were that the first people arrived in Australia just a few thousand years ago. Then with the discovery of remains at Lake Mungo in NSW the date was pushed out to 40,000 years. More recent remains pushed it to beyond 50,000 years. Now sites east of Darwin from the edge of the Arnhem Land escarpment date the first humans at 65,000 years. So were the early arrivals modern humans or another earlier species?

Edge-ground hatchet head being excavated (Chris Clarkson)

Madjedbebe site with excavation in progress (Dominic O’Brien)

Excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland stands in front of the 2015 excavation area with local Djurrubu Aboriginal Rangers Vernon Hardy, Mitchum Nango, Jacob Baird, and Claude Hardy (Dominic O’Brien)

Madjedbebe site custodian May Nango and excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland in the excavation pit (Dominic O’Brien)

Credits
Bert Roberts
Zenobia Jacobs
Robyn Williams, Presenter
David Fisher, Producer
Broadcast 22 Jul 2017

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

PermeateFree said:

New evidence of first Australians 65,000 years ago

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

snip

Credits
Bert Roberts
Zenobia Jacobs
Robyn Williams, Presenter
David Fisher, Producer
Broadcast 22 Jul 2017

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

used to enjoy going out to the escarpment.

PermeateFree said:

New evidence of first Australians 65,000 years ago

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

The time when humans arrived in Australia has been an evolving story of its own. Early ideas in the 1970s were that the first people arrived in Australia just a few thousand years ago. Then with the discovery of remains at Lake Mungo in NSW the date was pushed out to 40,000 years. More recent remains pushed it to beyond 50,000 years. Now sites east of Darwin from the edge of the Arnhem Land escarpment date the first humans at 65,000 years. So were the early arrivals modern humans or another earlier species?

Edge-ground hatchet head being excavated (Chris Clarkson)

Madjedbebe site with excavation in progress (Dominic O’Brien)

Excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland stands in front of the 2015 excavation area with local Djurrubu Aboriginal Rangers Vernon Hardy, Mitchum Nango, Jacob Baird, and Claude Hardy (Dominic O’Brien)

Madjedbebe site custodian May Nango and excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland in the excavation pit (Dominic O’Brien)

Credits
Bert Roberts
Zenobia Jacobs
Robyn Williams, Presenter
David Fisher, Producer
Broadcast 22 Jul 2017

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

So that pushes ground edge axes back to 65,000 years?

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

New evidence of first Australians 65,000 years ago

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

The time when humans arrived in Australia has been an evolving story of its own. Early ideas in the 1970s were that the first people arrived in Australia just a few thousand years ago. Then with the discovery of remains at Lake Mungo in NSW the date was pushed out to 40,000 years. More recent remains pushed it to beyond 50,000 years. Now sites east of Darwin from the edge of the Arnhem Land escarpment date the first humans at 65,000 years. So were the early arrivals modern humans or another earlier species?

Edge-ground hatchet head being excavated (Chris Clarkson)

Madjedbebe site with excavation in progress (Dominic O’Brien)

Excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland stands in front of the 2015 excavation area with local Djurrubu Aboriginal Rangers Vernon Hardy, Mitchum Nango, Jacob Baird, and Claude Hardy (Dominic O’Brien)

Madjedbebe site custodian May Nango and excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland in the excavation pit (Dominic O’Brien)

Credits
Bert Roberts
Zenobia Jacobs
Robyn Williams, Presenter
David Fisher, Producer
Broadcast 22 Jul 2017

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

So that pushes ground edge axes back to 65,000 years?

Does not say but presumably from somewhere in their excavations.

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

New evidence of first Australians 65,000 years ago

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

The time when humans arrived in Australia has been an evolving story of its own. Early ideas in the 1970s were that the first people arrived in Australia just a few thousand years ago. Then with the discovery of remains at Lake Mungo in NSW the date was pushed out to 40,000 years. More recent remains pushed it to beyond 50,000 years. Now sites east of Darwin from the edge of the Arnhem Land escarpment date the first humans at 65,000 years. So were the early arrivals modern humans or another earlier species?

Edge-ground hatchet head being excavated (Chris Clarkson)

Madjedbebe site with excavation in progress (Dominic O’Brien)

Excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland stands in front of the 2015 excavation area with local Djurrubu Aboriginal Rangers Vernon Hardy, Mitchum Nango, Jacob Baird, and Claude Hardy (Dominic O’Brien)

Madjedbebe site custodian May Nango and excavation leader Chris Clarkson from the University of Queensland in the excavation pit (Dominic O’Brien)

Credits
Bert Roberts
Zenobia Jacobs
Robyn Williams, Presenter
David Fisher, Producer
Broadcast 22 Jul 2017

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/scienceshow/new-evidence-of-first-australians-65,000-years-ago/8731004

So that pushes ground edge axes back to 65,000 years?

Does not say but presumably from somewhere in their excavations.

Well I believe they had already pushed out the ground axe edge to 42,000 in a Northern Territory find.

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

So that pushes ground edge axes back to 65,000 years?

Does not say but presumably from somewhere in their excavations.

Well I believe they had already pushed out the ground axe edge to 42,000 in a Northern Territory find.

Actually I erred on the young side. https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/archaeologists-find-world%E2%80%99s-oldest-ground-edge-axe-in-australia

roughbarked said:

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Does not say but presumably from somewhere in their excavations.

Well I believe they had already pushed out the ground axe edge to 42,000 in a Northern Territory find.

Actually I erred on the young side. https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/archaeologists-find-world%E2%80%99s-oldest-ground-edge-axe-in-australia

I’ve actually got axes and scrapers that had ground edges buried deep in a sand dune, unfortunately not dated scientifically but they certainly had ground edge tools iin southern Australia before white men came.

roughbarked said:

roughbarked said:

roughbarked said:

Well I believe they had already pushed out the ground axe edge to 42,000 in a Northern Territory find.

Actually I erred on the young side. https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/archaeologists-find-world%E2%80%99s-oldest-ground-edge-axe-in-australia

I’ve actually got axes and scrapers that had ground edges buried deep in a sand dune, unfortunately not dated scientifically but they certainly had ground edge tools iin southern Australia before white men came.

Yes in your linked article above it states they were invented in northern Australia shortly after their arrival, and later became common in southern Australia.

There weren’t any.

Not only were there no aboriginal agricultural practices.

Also, every one of the dozens of attempts to teach agricultural practices to aboriginals was a complete failure.

mollwollfumble said:

There weren’t any.

Not only were there no aboriginal agricultural practices.

Also, every one of the dozens of attempts to teach agricultural practices to aboriginals was a complete failure.

No and no which is unsurprising considering your absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians.

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

There weren’t any.

Not only were there no aboriginal agricultural practices.

Also, every one of the dozens of attempts to teach agricultural practices to aboriginals was a complete failure.

No and no which is unsurprising considering your absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians.

I had an absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians some 5 years ago. I’ve been researching it since then.

I was asked recently where my knowledge of Aboriginal people comes from. Asked by someone whose only knowledge comes from post 1976 white aboriginal activists. I made up the following list.

Aborigines biography.

You asked “where did I get this information?”
These are the main sources of my information on Australian aborigines.

Firstly, there are the three definitive scientific books on the Australian aborigines.

Spencer & Gillen (1899) “The Native Tribes of Central Australia”
A.W. Howitt (1904) “The Native Tribes of South-East Australia”
Daisy Bates (c1912) “The Native Tribes of Western Australia”

There is no equivalent book for Northern Australia or the Torres Strait.
For these, I turn to the following less reliable books:

Jack Maclaren (1926) “My crowded solitude”

And books by Ion Idriess about top end Aborigines. He lived with at least four tribes of Aborigines.
Drums of Mer (1933) – about the Torres Strait people
Man Tracks (1935) – (the second half only)
Over the Range (1937)
Headhunters of the Coral Sea (1940)
The Great Trek (1940)
Nemarluk (1941)
In Crocodile Land (1946)
Isles of Despair (1947)
Outlaws of the Leopolds (1952)
The Red Chief (1953)

And
Henry Doyle Moseley (1935) Report of the Royal Commissioner appointed to Investigate, Report and Advise upon matters in relation to the Condition and Treatment of Aborigines, Perth WA.

In addition to all these I have browsed through all the books about Aborigines in the The La Trobe Library (Australiana) section of the State Library. For example, this includes yearly statistical information on tribal, full-blood and mixed race aborigines in each state.

In addition to books, I’ve done extensive searches through the online Trove newspaper archive on topics of spearings in Australia, and on the treatment and government of Aborigines in NSW from the earliest records up until 1975. I don’t care about post 1976.

Aboriginal timber dwelling.

Caption: The sheets of paper bark on sticks is in Koolatong country, Arnhem Land. The buck sleeps inside up on top, the gin lights a smoke fire underneath to keep the mosquitoes from biting the master. When he is comfortable she can crawl up beside him … Jack Mahony photo.

And one more, even more recently.
The book by David Unaipon has been recently republished (in 2006). This is the first major book ever written by an aborigine. I’ve read it and totally recommend it to everyone with even a slight interest in Australian aborigines. It’s an extremely interesting mix of myth and factual observation. For instance, this is the first book I’ve read containing information about pre-European Aboriginal sports.

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

There weren’t any.

Not only were there no aboriginal agricultural practices.

Also, every one of the dozens of attempts to teach agricultural practices to aboriginals was a complete failure.

No and no which is unsurprising considering your absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians.

I had an absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians some 5 years ago. I’ve been researching it since then.

I was asked recently where my knowledge of Aboriginal people comes from. Asked by someone whose only knowledge comes from post 1976 white aboriginal activists. I made up the following list.

Aborigines biography.

You asked “where did I get this information?”
These are the main sources of my information on Australian aborigines.

Firstly, there are the three definitive scientific books on the Australian aborigines.

Spencer & Gillen (1899) “The Native Tribes of Central Australia”
A.W. Howitt (1904) “The Native Tribes of South-East Australia”
Daisy Bates (c1912) “The Native Tribes of Western Australia”

There is no equivalent book for Northern Australia or the Torres Strait.
For these, I turn to the following less reliable books:

Jack Maclaren (1926) “My crowded solitude”

And books by Ion Idriess about top end Aborigines. He lived with at least four tribes of Aborigines.
Drums of Mer (1933) – about the Torres Strait people
Man Tracks (1935) – (the second half only)
Over the Range (1937)
Headhunters of the Coral Sea (1940)
The Great Trek (1940)
Nemarluk (1941)
In Crocodile Land (1946)
Isles of Despair (1947)
Outlaws of the Leopolds (1952)
The Red Chief (1953)

And
Henry Doyle Moseley (1935) Report of the Royal Commissioner appointed to Investigate, Report and Advise upon matters in relation to the Condition and Treatment of Aborigines, Perth WA.

In addition to all these I have browsed through all the books about Aborigines in the The La Trobe Library (Australiana) section of the State Library. For example, this includes yearly statistical information on tribal, full-blood and mixed race aborigines in each state.

In addition to books, I’ve done extensive searches through the online Trove newspaper archive on topics of spearings in Australia, and on the treatment and government of Aborigines in NSW from the earliest records up until 1975. I don’t care about post 1976.

Aboriginal timber dwelling.

Caption: The sheets of paper bark on sticks is in Koolatong country, Arnhem Land. The buck sleeps inside up on top, the gin lights a smoke fire underneath to keep the mosquitoes from biting the master. When he is comfortable she can crawl up beside him … Jack Mahony photo.

And one more, even more recently.
The book by David Unaipon has been recently republished (in 2006). This is the first major book ever written by an aborigine. I’ve read it and totally recommend it to everyone with even a slight interest in Australian aborigines. It’s an extremely interesting mix of myth and factual observation. For instance, this is the first book I’ve read containing information about pre-European Aboriginal sports.

Then you should be aware of the eel farming in Western Victoria and the continent-wide practice of firestick farming to encourage regrowth and the proliferation of species that provided valuable protein in the Aboriginal diet.

https://theconversation.com/the-biggest-estate-on-earth-how-aborigines-made-australia-3787

And the idea that Aboriginals didn’t adopt and contribute to post colonisation farming practices is ludicrous. Are you really unaware that as recently as the 1960s Aborigines on outback stations were the primary workforce of jackaroos simultaneously working in a modern economic context while maintaining their ties to country?

moll..this source is considered a good source resource by academics in the field.

https://www.dymocks.com.au/book/australian-aborigines-by-james-dawson-9781108006552

My particular interest is that it covers the area where I live. It is also a good read. I paid a lot of money for a facsimile copy which AIAS brought out on the 100 year anniversary of its original publishing. When I bought it the bookshop had to do quite a search to find a copy for me. It is now available much more easily, in paperback and much more cheaply.

I would also suggest you have a look at “A Distant Field of Murder” by the academic Jan Critchett, “Scars in the Landscape” by Ian Clark (A register of massacre sites in Western Victoria 1803-1859) and I concur with Witty on Bill Gammage’s “The Biggest Estate on Earth”. I have generally read stuff relating to this area

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

No and no which is unsurprising considering your absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians.

I had an absolute ignorance on anything related to Aboriginal Australians some 5 years ago. I’ve been researching it since then.

I was asked recently where my knowledge of Aboriginal people comes from. Asked by someone whose only knowledge comes from post 1976 white aboriginal activists. I made up the following list.

Aborigines biography.

You asked “where did I get this information?”
These are the main sources of my information on Australian aborigines.

Firstly, there are the three definitive scientific books on the Australian aborigines.

Spencer & Gillen (1899) “The Native Tribes of Central Australia”
A.W. Howitt (1904) “The Native Tribes of South-East Australia”
Daisy Bates (c1912) “The Native Tribes of Western Australia”

There is no equivalent book for Northern Australia or the Torres Strait.
For these, I turn to the following less reliable books:

Jack Maclaren (1926) “My crowded solitude”

And books by Ion Idriess about top end Aborigines. He lived with at least four tribes of Aborigines.
Drums of Mer (1933) – about the Torres Strait people
Man Tracks (1935) – (the second half only)
Over the Range (1937)
Headhunters of the Coral Sea (1940)
The Great Trek (1940)
Nemarluk (1941)
In Crocodile Land (1946)
Isles of Despair (1947)
Outlaws of the Leopolds (1952)
The Red Chief (1953)

And
Henry Doyle Moseley (1935) Report of the Royal Commissioner appointed to Investigate, Report and Advise upon matters in relation to the Condition and Treatment of Aborigines, Perth WA.

In addition to all these I have browsed through all the books about Aborigines in the The La Trobe Library (Australiana) section of the State Library. For example, this includes yearly statistical information on tribal, full-blood and mixed race aborigines in each state.

In addition to books, I’ve done extensive searches through the online Trove newspaper archive on topics of spearings in Australia, and on the treatment and government of Aborigines in NSW from the earliest records up until 1975. I don’t care about post 1976.

Aboriginal timber dwelling.

Caption: The sheets of paper bark on sticks is in Koolatong country, Arnhem Land. The buck sleeps inside up on top, the gin lights a smoke fire underneath to keep the mosquitoes from biting the master. When he is comfortable she can crawl up beside him … Jack Mahony photo.

And one more, even more recently.
The book by David Unaipon has been recently republished (in 2006). This is the first major book ever written by an aborigine. I’ve read it and totally recommend it to everyone with even a slight interest in Australian aborigines. It’s an extremely interesting mix of myth and factual observation. For instance, this is the first book I’ve read containing information about pre-European Aboriginal sports.

Then you should be aware of the eel farming in Western Victoria and the continent-wide practice of firestick farming to encourage regrowth and the proliferation of species that provided valuable protein in the Aboriginal diet.

https://theconversation.com/the-biggest-estate-on-earth-how-aborigines-made-australia-3787

And the idea that Aboriginals didn’t adopt and contribute to post colonisation farming practices is ludicrous. Are you really unaware that as recently as the 1960s Aborigines on outback stations were the primary workforce of jackaroos simultaneously working in a modern economic context while maintaining their ties to country?

And, a story from ABC news today:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2023-09-12/centrefarm-picks-21-tonnes-of-garlic-in-second-harvest/102830524