Date: 24/09/2023 03:17:39
From: PermeateFree
ID: 2077944
Subject: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Last chance to realise our errors and to save ourselves and everything else.

>>As large parts of Europe and North America swelter and then ignite, a future of endless climate destruction seems inevitable.

In Australia, we’ve already felt the flames and know we will again.

And many other places now find themselves stuck in an ecocidal tennis match, bouncing from one extreme to another, from devastating fires to heartbreaking floods.

There’s a growing consensus on the urgent need to bring down carbon emissions, and the global rallying cry is net zero. This isn’t just a climate target, it’s become a badge of commitment.

There’s also a realisation that it won’t be easy.

“Transitioning to a net zero world is one of the greatest challenges humankind has faced,” the United Nations declares on its Climate Action website, urging a “complete transformation of how we produce, consume and move about.”

But a schism has emerged among the faithful, with major environmental groups and several leading climate experts now washing their hands of the net zero concept.

Their warning is blunt: the methods and technologies we’ve adopted to reverse global warming simply won’t work.

Worse still, they could do more harm than good.

Hijacked for profit
One way that countries have sought to achieve their net zero ambitions is by setting up a carbon market to allow heavy-polluting industries to offset their emissions by buying carbon credits.

The money generated is then channeled into activities that help the environment, like growing more trees, for instance.

Carbon markets are still in their infancy, but the former governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney – who’s now a UN Climate Envoy – believes they have a significant future role to play.

He estimates they could facilitate transactions of around US $1 trillion by 2050.

But Gilles Dufrasne, a policy officer at Carbon Market Watch, warns that if carbon markets are allowed to grow unchecked, they could compromise and ultimately distort net zero goals.

“The main concern is to ensure that the money is actually flowing to climate action and not to financial players or intermediaries, “ he told ABC RN’s Future Tense.

He says some carbon credits get traded up to 100 times, with no added benefit to the environment.

“It’s absurd to have so little transparency around where the money is going since it’s the actual primary objective of the entire system.”

Former chief scientist, Ian Chubb, has been tasked by the new federal government with investigating Australia’s widely criticised carbon credit scheme.

Mr Dufrasne says the integrity of other schemes is also in question, including one operated by the European Union.

“The whole concept is being exploited by companies who don’t want to take any meaningful action and who see a cheap way out of their responsibility by just purchasing these carbon credits,” he says.

’Burn now, pay later’
Last year, a former chair of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Robert Watson, broke ranks to denounce net zero as a fraud – a “dangerous trap”.

Writing in The Conversation, he and two other leading climate scientists declared they had abandoned the concept.

“Sometimes realisation comes in a blinding flash,” they wrote.

“The premise of net zero is deceptively simple – and we admit that it deceived us.

“We have arrived at the painful realisation that the idea of net zero has licensed a recklessly cavalier ‘burn now, pay later’ approach which has seen carbon emissions continue to soar.”

Earth Systems scientist James Dyke says that net zero was originally designed as a last-resort measure to allow a very small number of essential industries, like aviation and steelmaking, to offset their emissions and decarbonise over time.

But he says the term lost credibility when it began to be indiscriminately used as an excuse to delay taking action, pushing the problem onto future generations.

“So, when you hear ‘net zero by 2050’ what is being proposed is not that we just offset these hard-to-address sectors, but that we actually will be overshooting 1.5 degrees Celsius, maybe even 2 degrees Celsius,” says Dr Dyke.

Overshooting, that is, with the vague promise that by the middle of the century scientists will have invented effective ways to remove large quantities of carbon from the atmosphere.

But the flaw in that argument, Dr Dyke says, is that all attempts to build large-scale carbon reduction systems have so far failed – including the much-hyped carbon capture and storage (CCS).

“Many people are very surprised to learn that carbon removal technologies don’t really exist.

“I mean, there are ideas about how we might be able to remove large amounts of carbon dioxide from the Earth’s atmosphere, and when I say large, we are talking billions of tonnes. But whatever the proposed technology is, these are just placeholders,” he says.

“They are saying to future generations, by the time that we need these kinds of technologies, they will emerge.

“And as long as we can supply some kind of plausible idea for how we might be able to remove carbon dioxide, the net zero train keeps on running.”

Nature won’t do the work for us

Another net zero sceptic is Jannes Stoppel, from Greenpeace Germany.

Like Dr Dyke, he’s sceptical of any technological fix. And while he supports efforts to plant more trees and strengthen forests, he cautions against overestimating nature’s capacity to solve what is a human-generated problem.

Our natural ecosystems are already stressed, he warns.

And their ability to absorb more carbon in future is far from guaranteed

“What we are doing by further talking this net zero lingo, by further thinking that we can boost the ability (of forests and oceans) to draw down massive amounts of carbon in the future, it’s a very, very dangerous game we are playing.”

Net zero is a distraction, he says, our real emissions reduction goal should be zero. And getting there as quickly as possible.

That means, biting the bullet and phasing out all fossil fuel-using technologies now, rather than relying on elaborate trading systems and vague political promises of future cuts to save the day.

Claire Fyson from Climate Analytics, an non-profit institute that monitors the commitments of 40 governments to net zero, including the richest nations, admits the concept is struggling, but she still has faith it can work.

“I think we are facing a challenge because the world suddenly became very aware of this need for net zero and everyone sort of piled on to the concept. That does mean that there will be free riders in that, but that doesn’t mean we should give up.”

But Dr Dyke doubts the industrialised world is really serious about decarbonisation.

“At the moment there is this sort of phoney war on climate action where we continue to say that 1.5 is still alive and that, with one great leap in ambition, we can still do it, whilst knowing that that’s just not going to happen.”

Humankind needs to stop gambling on the future, he argues, and start asking ourselves the difficult questions.

“I think in many instances this notion of future removals, and the framing around net zero, is being used to stop those questions,” he says.

“It’s really important for us to have these discussions now because warming is going to exceed 1.5 degrees Celsius. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that whatsoever.

“We are currently still on course for around 3 degrees Celsius by the end of this century.

“So, when that does happen, we need to have an idea of what we are going to do to respond to the increase in vulnerability, the increase in damage and destruction and death that it’s going to produce — and make sure that we don’t respond in ways that are going to make the situation much, much worse.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-11/net-zero-has-zero-chance-of-saving-us-from-climate-change/101288116

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2023 12:21:37
From: dv
ID: 2078282
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Although there’s some truth to this, this is why the intermediate goals are just as important as the net zero target date. For instance Australia has committed to reducing emissions to 43% by 2030.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/10/2023 10:12:36
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2085316
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Thankfully with practically free electricity coming out of roofs within 5 years we can make Australians can all buy SUVs and feel good about their eroding beaches¡

If we’re upset about the price of petrol, why do we drive the vehicles we do? SUVs (so-called sport utility vehicles) use more fuel per kilometre than standard cars — according to the International Energy Agency, up to 25 per cent more. They weigh more than standard cars — about 100 kilograms more. And they emit more carbon than standard cars. In Australia, medium-size SUVs emit 14 per cent more carbon per kilometre travelled than medium-size cars. Large SUVs emit 30 per cent more than large cars. Yet we’re buying them at a rate that would have been unimaginable even a decade ago. As recently as 2012, more than half the new vehicles sold in Australia were “passenger cars” — the standard low-slung cars of the type we were used to. About one-quarter were SUVs. Back further, in the early 1990s, three-quarters of the new vehicles we bought were passenger cars, and only 8 per cent SUVs. Yet after an explosion in SUV sales, today every second vehicle bought is an SUV. In August, SUVs accounted for 57 per cent of new vehicle sales. Passenger cars accounted for just 17 per cent. This means SUVs outsell passenger cars three to one.

^

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-18/passenger-cars-heavier-costlier-suvs-took-over-australian-roads/102987418

Reply Quote

Date: 20/10/2023 04:56:11
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2085986
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

LOL

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 09:42:36
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086367
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 10:44:16
From: captain_spalding
ID: 2086377
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:16:57
From: Bubblecar
ID: 2086387
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

captain_spalding said:


SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

My roof is green (I think. Goes out to check).

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:24:34
From: Tamb
ID: 2086393
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Bubblecar said:


captain_spalding said:

SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

My roof is green (I think. Goes out to check).


Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:33:34
From: Bubblecar
ID: 2086395
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Tamb said:


Bubblecar said:

captain_spalding said:

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

My roof is green (I think. Goes out to check).


Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Sounds sensible.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:34:11
From: Michael V
ID: 2086396
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Tamb said:


Bubblecar said:

captain_spalding said:

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

My roof is green (I think. Goes out to check).


Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Ours is Colorbond “Surfmist”.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:36:57
From: Bubblecar
ID: 2086397
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Michael V said:


Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

My roof is green (I think. Goes out to check).


Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Ours is Colorbond “Surfmist”.

Good camouflage, given that you live by the sea.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:41:13
From: Tamb
ID: 2086401
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Michael V said:


Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

My roof is green (I think. Goes out to check).


Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Ours is Colorbond “Surfmist”.

That was on our short list.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:42:17
From: Tamb
ID: 2086402
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Bubblecar said:


Michael V said:

Tamb said:

Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Ours is Colorbond “Surfmist”.

Good camouflage, given that you live by the sea.

Like Puff the Magic Dragon?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 11:42:51
From: Michael V
ID: 2086403
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Bubblecar said:


Michael V said:

Tamb said:

Mine is Colorbond “Classic Cream”

Ours is Colorbond “Surfmist”.

Good camouflage, given that you live by the sea.

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 12:19:02
From: roughbarked
ID: 2086436
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

captain_spalding said:


SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

For that matter almost everywhere in Australia.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 13:29:44
From: dv
ID: 2086480
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

roughbarked said:


captain_spalding said:

SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.

Right from the first time i saw one of those houses with acres of dark grey, almost black roofing, i thought ‘what, in this climate?’.

Same goes for black cars. I know that Mythbusters did a test where they tested the notion that black cars were hotter inside than white ones, and they found no significant difference. But, that was in San Francisco. It can snow in San Francisco.

When i saw that, my thought was ‘come to Bundaberg, fellas, i’ll show you some different results very quickly’.

For that matter almost everywhere in Australia.

Yeah I think MB must have fucked up somewhere. It’s something that’s been tested many times. It can be a difference of > 10 deg C in hot conditions.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 15:29:13
From: captain_spalding
ID: 2086501
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

dv said:

Yeah I think MB must have fucked up somewhere. It’s something that’s been tested many times. It can be a difference of > 10 deg C in hot conditions.

They’d miss it sometimes.

The one they did on the levels of injury caused by timber splinters in the days of sailing ship/cannon warfare at sea: they dismissed the likelihood of splinter wounds as being negligible.

There’s surgeons’ logs from many, many ships of the Napoleonic wars and earlier in Britain’s national archives, and the Admiralty archives, which attest to thousands of cases of splinter wounds, many of them quite major and horrific. And they were written by the blokes who had to deal with those wounds.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:18:40
From: boppa
ID: 2086590
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…

I’d be interested to see the difference- with current panels running around 22%, I wonder if having a ‘white’ roof is actually worse than a darker coloured panel covered roof… thats exporting the energy elsewhere…

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:29:04
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086595
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

boppa said:


One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…

I’d be interested to see the difference- with current panels running around 22%, I wonder if having a ‘white’ roof is actually worse than a darker coloured panel covered roof… thats exporting the energy elsewhere…

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:30:53
From: dv
ID: 2086596
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


boppa said:

One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…

I’d be interested to see the difference- with current panels running around 22%, I wonder if having a ‘white’ roof is actually worse than a darker coloured panel covered roof… thats exporting the energy elsewhere…

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:31:58
From: Boris
ID: 2086598
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

boppa said:

One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…

I’d be interested to see the difference- with current panels running around 22%, I wonder if having a ‘white’ roof is actually worse than a darker coloured panel covered roof… thats exporting the energy elsewhere…

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

exactly.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:40:03
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086601
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

boppa said:

One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…

I’d be interested to see the difference- with current panels running around 22%, I wonder if having a ‘white’ roof is actually worse than a darker coloured panel covered roof… thats exporting the energy elsewhere…

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:41:39
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086602
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:44:24
From: Boris
ID: 2086603
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

——-> pedantic teaser thread

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:46:58
From: Boris
ID: 2086604
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Boris said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

——-> pedantic teaser thread

i wonder why that last hyphen is out of line?

——->

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:49:53
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086606
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

OK 👌 we were half joking but we weren’t intending for The Rev Dodgson to get fully stuck into the troll game on top of that, nevertheless we’ren’t actually sure if solar panels locally heat more or less than white roofing…

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:53:30
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086607
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Boris said:

Boris said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

——-> pedantic teaser thread

i wonder why that last hyphen is out of line?

———>

Textile mucks them up in pairs… use — if you must.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 20:59:52
From: Boris
ID: 2086609
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

Boris said:

Boris said:

——-> pedantic teaser thread

i wonder why that last hyphen is out of line?

———>

Textile mucks them up in pairs… use — if you must.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 21:00:05
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086610
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

OK 👌 we were half joking but we weren’t intending for The Rev Dodgson to get fully stuck into the troll game on top of that, nevertheless we’ren’t actually sure if solar panels locally heat more or less than white roofing…

Since when was making a perfectly reasonable point getting fully stuck into the troll game?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 21:09:07
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086612
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

OK 👌 we were half joking but we weren’t intending for The Rev Dodgson to get fully stuck into the troll game on top of that, nevertheless we’ren’t actually sure if solar panels locally heat more or less than white roofing…

Since when was making a perfectly reasonable point getting fully stuck into the troll game?

Oh c’m‘on yous know as well as we do that in context

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area. They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

is misleading even if there is a narrow band of interpretations where it could strictly conduct.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 21:09:48
From: boppa
ID: 2086613
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


boppa said:

One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…

I’d be interested to see the difference- with current panels running around 22%, I wonder if having a ‘white’ roof is actually worse than a darker coloured panel covered roof… thats exporting the energy elsewhere…

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area.

They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

Um- wha?????
they don’t move it, just transfer it??? :-O
(you get approximately 1kw per square metre of solar irradiance, with a dark roof that is used almost entirely in heating the roof, with a same coloured solar panel, 22% is transferred AWAY from that area, meaning that it has 22% less energy available for heating…)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 21:10:50
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086614
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

OK 👌 we were half joking but we weren’t intending for The Rev Dodgson to get fully stuck into the troll game on top of that, nevertheless we’ren’t actually sure if solar panels locally heat more or less than white roofing…

Since when was making a perfectly reasonable point getting fully stuck into the troll game?

Oh c’m‘on yous know as well as we do that in context

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area. They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

is misleading even if there is a narrow band of interpretations where it could strictly conduct.

I disagree. I don’t think it’s misleading at all.

The point is, if the light isn’t reflected, then it’s trapped here on Earth.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 21:26:44
From: btm
ID: 2086616
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

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Date: 21/10/2023 21:31:10
From: boppa
ID: 2086617
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

btm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

Plus reflecting more light/energy would increase atmospheric heating slightly as well- you get heating of the atmosphere on the path down, by reflecting more back, it will increase the heating on the return path ‘into space’ as well…

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Date: 21/10/2023 21:32:44
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086619
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

btm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

Eh?

Whatever it is used for, it ends up as heat, here on Earth.

Almost all of it in urban areas.

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Date: 21/10/2023 21:35:41
From: 19 shillings
ID: 2086620
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Anyway, our kids and their kids will rightly say we were not very smart when thinking about the future.

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Date: 21/10/2023 21:38:29
From: monkey skipper
ID: 2086622
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

19 shillings said:


Anyway, our kids and their kids will rightly say we were not very smart when thinking about the future.

Most children of today are green minded and will factor that into future personal and business decisions.

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Date: 21/10/2023 21:45:45
From: 19 shillings
ID: 2086628
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

monkey skipper said:


19 shillings said:

Anyway, our kids and their kids will rightly say we were not very smart when thinking about the future.

Most children of today are green minded and will factor that into future personal and business decisions.


__

Hope so

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Date: 21/10/2023 21:46:34
From: dv
ID: 2086629
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

??? Isn’t transferring it elsewhere the same as removing it from the area?

Depends how big the “area” is :) (and whether it is used in the building or returned to the grid)

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

How the fuck should I know? What am I … the benefit police?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/10/2023 22:13:58
From: btm
ID: 2086639
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

Eh?

Whatever it is used for, it ends up as heat, here on Earth.

Almost all of it in urban areas.

So if I use electricity to power my car or bicycle, that movement is heat? I grant that some of the energy goes as heat, but certainly not all of it. I could add lots of other uses of electricity that don’t produce (much) heat, but you get the idea.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:20:52
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086648
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

btm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

btm said:

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

Eh?

Whatever it is used for, it ends up as heat, here on Earth.

Almost all of it in urban areas.

So if I use electricity to power my car or bicycle, that movement is heat? I grant that some of the energy goes as heat, but certainly not all of it. I could add lots of other uses of electricity that don’t produce (much) heat, but you get the idea.

Assuming that at some stage your car or bicycle comes to a stop, every bit of that dynamic energy ends up as heat.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:28:40
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086650
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Eh?

Whatever it is used for, it ends up as heat, here on Earth.

Almost all of it in urban areas.

So if I use electricity to power my car or bicycle, that movement is heat? I grant that some of the energy goes as heat, but certainly not all of it. I could add lots of other uses of electricity that don’t produce (much) heat, but you get the idea.

Assuming that at some stage your car or bicycle comes to a stop, every bit of that dynamic energy ends up as heat.

Fatalism¡

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:29:43
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086651
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Since when was making a perfectly reasonable point getting fully stuck into the troll game?

Oh c’m‘on yous know as well as we do that in context

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area. They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

is misleading even if there is a narrow band of interpretations where it could strictly conduct.

I disagree. I don’t think it’s misleading at all.

The point is, if the light isn’t reflected, then it’s trapped here on Earth.

Anyway, we disagree too. Last we checked, humans did communicate with satellites, and they also did launch satellites¡

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:33:56
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086653
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

btm said:

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

Eh?

Whatever it is used for, it ends up as heat, here on Earth.

Almost all of it in urban areas.

So if I use electricity to power my car or bicycle, that movement is heat? I grant that some of the energy goes as heat, but certainly not all of it. I could add lots of other uses of electricity that don’t produce (much) heat, but you get the idea.

We actually agree with The Rev Dodgson that ultimately it’s all thermal energy but we disagree that ultimately is the relevant time scale (and we disagree that it’s stuck on Earth) we mean chemical sequestration is in fact where we would suggest that energy is put on a useful or even geological time scale.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:35:16
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086654
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

Oh c’m‘on yous know as well as we do that in context

But they don’t actually remove the energy from the area. They transfer it to wherever the electricity is used.

is misleading even if there is a narrow band of interpretations where it could strictly conduct.

I disagree. I don’t think it’s misleading at all.

The point is, if the light isn’t reflected, then it’s trapped here on Earth.

Anyway, we disagree too. Last we checked, humans did communicate with satellites, and they also did launch satellites¡

Who is being pedantic now?

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:37:23
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 2086655
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The Rev Dodgson said:


SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I disagree. I don’t think it’s misleading at all.

The point is, if the light isn’t reflected, then it’s trapped here on Earth.

Anyway, we disagree too. Last we checked, humans did communicate with satellites, and they also did launch satellites¡

Who is being pedantic now?

Father Cranley told me that energy can not be created or destroyed.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:38:23
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086656
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Eh?

Whatever it is used for, it ends up as heat, here on Earth.

Almost all of it in urban areas.

So if I use electricity to power my car or bicycle, that movement is heat? I grant that some of the energy goes as heat, but certainly not all of it. I could add lots of other uses of electricity that don’t produce (much) heat, but you get the idea.

We actually agree with The Rev Dodgson that ultimately it’s all thermal energy but we disagree that ultimately is the relevant time scale (and we disagree that it’s stuck on Earth) we mean chemical sequestration is in fact where we would suggest that energy is put on a useful or even geological time scale.

Of the light energy converted into electricity by solar panels, almost all of it is converted into heat within a day or two.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:40:06
From: Boris
ID: 2086657
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

“One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…”

was the original point.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:45:23
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2086659
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Boris said:


“One thing many miss is that solar panels- while being dark yes- ALSO remove energy from the area, meaning their temperature drops in comparison to a non solar panel roof covering of the exact same colour…”

was the original point.

… and since the relevant area in terms of heat island effects is the city where the house is located, very little of that heat is actually removed from the area, of that that does end up outside the city, most of it will go to another urban area.

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:48:52
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086661
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

captain_spalding said:


SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.


Roofs

To be honest rooves to an natural English speaker is the more intuitive spelling

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Date: 21/10/2023 22:50:38
From: dv
ID: 2086663
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Presumably some amount of the electrical power produced does not ultimately heat the earth, for instance all the light and radio waves that make it to space.

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Date: 22/10/2023 00:37:51
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086680
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

boppa said:


btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I mean even if it ends up being used in a different suburb, or a different city even, where is the benefit in that?

TRD, you seem to be saying that the only use for electricity is heating. If that were true, you’d be right, but it’s not.

Plus reflecting more light/energy would increase atmospheric heating slightly as well- you get heating of the atmosphere on the path down, by reflecting more back, it will increase the heating on the return path ‘into space’ as well…


No

When reflecting visible frequencies the energy is reflected straight back into space. Visible frequencies don’t have a frequency that can be captured by the gas molecules of the atmosphere. You’d assume that not all the energy goes straight back up into the sky.

Certain infra red frequencies will be captured by atmospheric gases.

Just make sure you have a white roof if you have solar panels to even out the heat Island effect.

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Date: 22/10/2023 00:41:19
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086682
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

The special white paint will reflect certain frequencies of infra red too

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Date: 22/10/2023 09:53:14
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2086740
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

hax

https://grist.org/accountability/risks-gas-stoves-utilities-borrowed-big-tobacco-playbook/

To obscure the risks of gas stoves, utilities borrowed from Big Tobacco’s playbook

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Date: 22/10/2023 10:32:15
From: transition
ID: 2086754
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

wookiemeister said:


captain_spalding said:

SCIENCE said:

Another Reason Not To Go Solar¡ Them Panels Will Be Darker Than Even These Surfaces¡

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/dark-roofs-raising-the-heat-in-australian-new-suburbs/102990304

I’ve never understood dark coloured rooves.


Roofs

To be honest rooves to an natural English speaker is the more intuitive spelling

how inconvenient are the seasons, and other variability, anyway eventually the entire planet might go to the boil, go into thermal runaway, be plenty more storms and whatever to watch on the TV, more news to go between advertisements to watch from the comfort of inside, your equilibrium will be assisted by the view everyone is in the same boat

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Date: 22/10/2023 11:29:14
From: party_pants
ID: 2086774
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

I went for a light tan coloured roof, just for reasons of not absorbing too much heat in summer. White was not an option because it can cuase problems with glare.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 13:50:38
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086829
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

hax

https://grist.org/accountability/risks-gas-stoves-utilities-borrowed-big-tobacco-playbook/

To obscure the risks of gas stoves, utilities borrowed from Big Tobacco’s playbook



I’ve never liked gas being used inside – as a BBQ, hot water heating , fine

Using gas inside just creates a build up of poisonous gases inside your house – plus the ongoing risk of explosion

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 13:54:44
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 2086832
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

wookiemeister said:


SCIENCE said:

hax

https://grist.org/accountability/risks-gas-stoves-utilities-borrowed-big-tobacco-playbook/

To obscure the risks of gas stoves, utilities borrowed from Big Tobacco’s playbook



I’ve never liked gas being used inside – as a BBQ, hot water heating , fine

Using gas inside just creates a build up of poisonous gases inside your house – plus the ongoing risk of explosion

Up at the redoubt I use a small canister gas cooker to make a cup of tea in side,

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 13:58:27
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086835
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Peak Warming Man said:


wookiemeister said:

SCIENCE said:

hax

https://grist.org/accountability/risks-gas-stoves-utilities-borrowed-big-tobacco-playbook/

To obscure the risks of gas stoves, utilities borrowed from Big Tobacco’s playbook



I’ve never liked gas being used inside – as a BBQ, hot water heating , fine

Using gas inside just creates a build up of poisonous gases inside your house – plus the ongoing risk of explosion

Up at the redoubt I use a small canister gas cooker to make a cup of tea in side,


Yes but you live in a pre loved unabomber shed with adequate ventilation so it’s probably ok

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 14:01:10
From: Tamb
ID: 2086837
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Peak Warming Man said:


wookiemeister said:

SCIENCE said:

hax

https://grist.org/accountability/risks-gas-stoves-utilities-borrowed-big-tobacco-playbook/

To obscure the risks of gas stoves, utilities borrowed from Big Tobacco’s playbook



I’ve never liked gas being used inside – as a BBQ, hot water heating , fine

Using gas inside just creates a build up of poisonous gases inside your house – plus the ongoing risk of explosion

Up at the redoubt I use a small canister gas cooker to make a cup of tea in side,


I have a Honda EU30i generator on the back deck. It can power the fridge/freezer, the micro & the computer.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 14:23:02
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086843
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

I see a lot of the male posters here living in unabomber sheds on this forum, Boris, anyone living in a regional situation and especially roughie. They’ve all got a plan B leaning up somewhere a pick axe handle with some string wrapped round the handle end

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 14:45:33
From: dv
ID: 2086853
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Peak Warming Man said:


wookiemeister said:

SCIENCE said:

hax

https://grist.org/accountability/risks-gas-stoves-utilities-borrowed-big-tobacco-playbook/

To obscure the risks of gas stoves, utilities borrowed from Big Tobacco’s playbook



I’ve never liked gas being used inside – as a BBQ, hot water heating , fine

Using gas inside just creates a build up of poisonous gases inside your house – plus the ongoing risk of explosion

Up at the redoubt I use a small canister gas cooker to make a cup of tea in side,

Have you considered going the wookie route and drinking you’re own piss out of the skull of a cat?

Reply Quote

Date: 22/10/2023 14:52:49
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2086855
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

dv said:


Peak Warming Man said:

wookiemeister said:

I’ve never liked gas being used inside – as a BBQ, hot water heating , fine

Using gas inside just creates a build up of poisonous gases inside your house – plus the ongoing risk of explosion

Up at the redoubt I use a small canister gas cooker to make a cup of tea in side,

Have you considered going the wookie route and drinking you’re own piss out of the skull of a cat?


That’s great DV, always having a go. It was ONCE , DV, ONCE

Reply Quote

Date: 25/10/2023 21:02:20
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2088084
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-25/un-report-warns-tipping-points-crisis-humanity-must-take-action/103014684

Reply Quote

Date: 26/10/2023 02:59:21
From: PermeateFree
ID: 2088154
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-25/un-report-warns-tipping-points-crisis-humanity-must-take-action/103014684

Some would say we have already entered a few tipping points and every new study indicates a dire future that becomes shorter on each occasion as the situation accelerates beyond expectations. You might as well laugh because there is little chance of stopping it now, with the only hope of reducing it, but that too is beginning to look unlikely, at least in the short term. However, you have every right to conclude that we have fucked up big time.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/10/2023 09:01:52
From: roughbarked
ID: 2088165
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

PermeateFree said:


SCIENCE said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-25/un-report-warns-tipping-points-crisis-humanity-must-take-action/103014684

Some would say we have already entered a few tipping points and every new study indicates a dire future that becomes shorter on each occasion as the situation accelerates beyond expectations. You might as well laugh because there is little chance of stopping it now, with the only hope of reducing it, but that too is beginning to look unlikely, at least in the short term. However, you have every right to conclude that we have fucked up big time.

True indeed.

Reply Quote

Date: 26/10/2023 09:21:50
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2088188
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

SCIENCE said:

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-25/un-report-warns-tipping-points-crisis-humanity-must-take-action/103014684

Some would say we have already entered a few tipping points and every new study indicates a dire future that becomes shorter on each occasion as the situation accelerates beyond expectations. You might as well laugh because there is little chance of stopping it now, with the only hope of reducing it, but that too is beginning to look unlikely, at least in the short term. However, you have every right to conclude that we have fucked up big time.

True indeed.

Some call it fucked up but we can assure you from the perspective of those in charge, it’s a great success all going exactly as planned¡

Reply Quote

Date: 29/10/2023 10:17:45
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2089055
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Some would say we have already entered a few tipping points and every new study indicates a dire future that becomes shorter on each occasion as the situation accelerates beyond expectations. You might as well laugh because there is little chance of stopping it now, with the only hope of reducing it, but that too is beginning to look unlikely, at least in the short term. However, you have every right to conclude that we have fucked up big time.

True indeed.

Some call it fucked up but we can assure you from the perspective of those in charge, it’s a great success all going exactly as planned¡

Hey what’s this we see is that a whole heap of

roof and car parking space that could be panelled up¿

Nah fuck that, just

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-29/latrobe-university-clears-trees-for-solar-farm/103033568

cut down the damn trees¡

Reply Quote

Date: 29/10/2023 10:32:01
From: roughbarked
ID: 2089061
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

Aren’t trees a solar farm already?

Reply Quote

Date: 29/10/2023 11:57:49
From: party_pants
ID: 2089079
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

roughbarked said:


Aren’t trees a solar farm already?

Yes-ish. If you look at it that way.

Reply Quote

Date: 29/10/2023 12:03:17
From: roughbarked
ID: 2089081
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

party_pants said:


roughbarked said:

Aren’t trees a solar farm already?

Yes-ish. If you look at it that way.

I do look at life itself quite a lot.

Part of my problem is that I need to take my biggest trees out to make solar worth having on my perfectly aligned north facing house and they are big trees, very big. They are only just 42 years in the ground but they are as much as 30m tall.

Reply Quote

Date: 29/10/2023 12:15:47
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2089090
Subject: re: Experts say the net zero concept is often used to delay taking action against emissions

roughbarked said:

SCIENCE said:

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

True indeed.

Some call it fucked up but we can assure you from the perspective of those in charge, it’s a great success all going exactly as planned¡

Hey what’s this we see is that a whole heap of

roof and car parking space that could be panelled up¿

Nah fuck that, just

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-29/latrobe-university-clears-trees-for-solar-farm/103033568

cut down the damn trees¡

Aren’t trees a solar farm already?

Sure As Long As You Cut Them Down For Burning To Power Your Generator Turbine ¡

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