We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

Drones could collect water from deep space.

Lots of it around in space.

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

Drones could collect water from deep space.

Lots of it around in space.

There’s water on the moon and water on passing asteroids.

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

Drones could collect water from deep space.

Lots of it around in space.

Concentration is very low. (Maybe a few molecules per cubic kilometre.)

And anyway, how do you get the drones to fly in space?

Michael V said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

Drones could collect water from deep space.

Lots of it around in space.

Concentration is very low. (Maybe a few molecules per cubic kilometre.)

And anyway, how do you get the drones to fly in space?

Rockets and ion drives.

Mostly ion drives

Forget collecting water from space itself .

It’s mostly on passing asteroids and on the moon.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

Drones could collect water from deep space.

Lots of it around in space.

There’s water on the moon and water on passing asteroids.

You do know that 2/3 of the planet we live on is covered in the stuff?

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

Interesting article on the topic

Extraterrestrial liquid water
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_liquid_water

Tau.Neutrino said:

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

From a link within the OP article:

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2023GL103509

“Earth’s pole has drifted toward 64.16°E at a speed of 4.36 cm/yr during 1993–2010 due to groundwater depletion and resulting sea level rise”

I knew about the drift but had no idea what’s causing it; figured it was just doing what it normally does.

Mars, Ceres, Ganymede, Enceladus, Europa all have water.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_liquid_water

Tau.Neutrino said:

+1

OCDC said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

+1

:)

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

That’s the challenge, to bring down the cost of collecting water from other bodies in space.

Tau.Neutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

That’s the challenge, to bring down the cost of collecting water from other bodies in space.

Why?

Michael V said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

That has been what I’ve been saying for decades.

Drones could collect water from deep space.

Lots of it around in space.

Concentration is very low. (Maybe a few molecules per cubic kilometre.)

And anyway, how do you get the drones to fly in space?

Interesting question.

Tau.Neutrino said:

OCDC said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

+1

:)

Love the commentary.

I know.

There is water flowing underground..
There is water at the bottom of the ocean…

Ian said:

I know.

There is water flowing underground..
There is water at the bottom of the ocean…

You know a lot though. ;)

Ian said:

I know.

There is water flowing underground..
There is water at the bottom of the ocean…

For underground water in Australia. That of the Murray-Darling basin is already fully utilised.

But that of the Hunter River basin and of rivers north of there, last time I looked, it was extremely under-utilised.

I suppose if we heated up the ocean surface to create more evaporation and thus more rain, that would alleviate the problem.

Many cities are now heavily reliant on desalination. Including Perth and Dubai.

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

>>Already, agriculture accounts for 90% of the world’s freshwater use. <<

Just another example of there being far too many people on this planet. It is long overdue that we look at the actual environmental problems we face rather than the lust for continual growth and the economy, of which bigger populations are the easy way to make the economy grow and to make everyone feel good about the way things are going.

PermeateFree said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

>>Already, agriculture accounts for 90% of the world’s freshwater use. <<

Just another example of there being far too many people on this planet. It is long overdue that we look at the actual environmental problems we face rather than the lust for continual growth and the economy, of which bigger populations are the easy way to make the economy grow and to make everyone feel good about the way things are going.

We can fix that with WW3 but the politicians don’t seem brave enough to do that, we need someone like Trump.

Peak Warming Man said:

PermeateFree said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

>>Already, agriculture accounts for 90% of the world’s freshwater use. <<

Just another example of there being far too many people on this planet. It is long overdue that we look at the actual environmental problems we face rather than the lust for continual growth and the economy, of which bigger populations are the easy way to make the economy grow and to make everyone feel good about the way things are going.

We can fix that with WW3 but the politicians don’t seem brave enough to do that, we need someone like Trump.

And Putin?

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

PermeateFree said:

>>Already, agriculture accounts for 90% of the world’s freshwater use. <<

Just another example of there being far too many people on this planet. It is long overdue that we look at the actual environmental problems we face rather than the lust for continual growth and the economy, of which bigger populations are the easy way to make the economy grow and to make everyone feel good about the way things are going.

We can fix that with WW3 but the politicians don’t seem brave enough to do that, we need someone like Trump.

And Putin?

Together they should be able to arrange it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

yeah, but space water.

PermeateFree said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

>>Already, agriculture accounts for 90% of the world’s freshwater use. <<

Just another example of there being far too many people on this planet. It is long overdue that we look at the actual environmental problems we face rather than the lust for continual growth and the economy, of which bigger populations are the easy way to make the economy grow and to make everyone feel good about the way things are going.

Soon Elon will have enough kids to start his own country so there’s that.

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

yeah, but space water.

Pure water from space uncontaminated.

Imagine the marketing.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

yeah, but space water.

Pure water from space uncontaminated.

Imagine the marketing.

What makes you think water in space is somehow pristine?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

yeah, but space water.

Pure water from space uncontaminated.

Imagine the marketing.

H2 whoa!

Witty Rejoinder said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bogsnorkler said:

yeah, but space water.

Pure water from space uncontaminated.

Imagine the marketing.

What makes you think water in space is somehow pristine?

nobody has pissed in it?

Witty Rejoinder said:

PermeateFree said:

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

>>Already, agriculture accounts for 90% of the world’s freshwater use. <<

Just another example of there being far too many people on this planet. It is long overdue that we look at the actual environmental problems we face rather than the lust for continual growth and the economy, of which bigger populations are the easy way to make the economy grow and to make everyone feel good about the way things are going.

Soon Elon will have enough kids to start his own country so there’s that.

LOL

Bogsnorkler said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What I meant by drone is an automated vehicle.

It doesn’t matter what sort of vehicle you are talking about.

Extracting water from an asteroid and returning it to Earth would need about a billion times more energy than extracting that water from sea water.

yeah, but space water.

Probably worse than chemtrails.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bogsnorkler said:

yeah, but space water.

Pure water from space uncontaminated.

Imagine the marketing.

What makes you think water in space is somehow pristine?

Who knows 🤷‍♀️

I would think it’s a bit of a mixture.

Lots of dust in space.

Moon water might need filtering.

Bogsnorkler said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Pure water from space uncontaminated.

Imagine the marketing.

What makes you think water in space is somehow pristine?

nobody has pissed in it?

I used to live in Pistine Waters briefly while the councils chopped and changed their names.. under the Great Aggregation

sarahs mum said:

We need to talk about water – and the fact that the world is running out of it
George Monbiot

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/water-world-run-out-planet-hotter-looming-crisis

Water is not only important it’s essential
although the amount of water on the planet is pretty much a closed system
so even though you’re saying it’s disappearing, it’s not, what’s changing is
both the distribution and the amount of fresh usable water for drinking and
to sustain growth… which brings up my personal pet peeve: POPULATION!

Does it really make sense that when on one hand we recognize that amount
of water necessary to sustain the food industry is directly related to population
growth while at the same time they’re expressly forbidding all birth control?

but then there’s my other issue I keep harping on: POLLUTION!

Stupidity, accidents, carelessness and just plain flat out not giving a shit
FRACKING which not only releases atmospheric warming methane that’s
a root cause of the evaporative water loss and glacial melting, but also the
highly toxic fracking fluid allowed to mix with the ground water and streams.
Drilling, both off-shore and on especially with oil spills and leaking tankers,
Greed that allows toxic shale oil drilling and transporting across Aquifers
of “Precious” fresh groundwater supplies… Shale and tar sands oil that is
so thick and gummy it needs boiling water to be pumped into the ground in
order to force it to the surface, and once there is so toxic and explosive that
it can’t be transported by rail, so it’s necessary to be forced through pipelines
under pressure for thousands of kilometers making it highly susceptible to
rupturing and dumping it’s contents into the underlying fresh groundwater.

btw, I ain’t ‘et a forkful of fish since the Fucushima fuck up
no matter what people choose to think you can’t sweep that shit under the rug

now the totally outrageous sinking of that fertilizer shipment into the Red Sea

WTF?!?

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

There are indeed many issues to be addressed and it has been postulated that Putin and others of his ilk could do something about the population but that’s a but like shooting rabbits.

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

That has actually happened before on the mainland, that’s why there’s so much salt laying about.

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

What do these do with the salt?

roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

What do these do with the salt?

Salt stays in the ocean.

Michael V said:

roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

What do these do with the salt?

Salt stays in the ocean.

That is what I was imagining.

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

And with the likelihood of needing a lot of excess capacity wind and solar for calm and cloudy days we’ll have lots of electricity to spare on good days.

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

The Ord river is a good place to start.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

That has actually happened before on the mainland, that’s why there’s so much salt laying about.

Use solar power for the pumping and water collection.

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

party_pants said:

What I’d like to do in Australia is pump seawater inland to a big wide open empty plain full of covered shallow pools out in the sun. Blow hot air over the water, collect and cool the air, and collect the fresh water as it condenses out. Eventually you end up with a big pile of salt, which can be sold and used for industry. End up with lots of freshwater, all done with renewables.

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

The best thing would be to relocate agricultural industries to places where there is an abundance of readily available fresh water.

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

The best thing would be to relocate agricultural industries to places where there is an abundance of readily available fresh water.

If we need to increase agricultural output by some staggering amount, as claimed, then getting two crops per year out of the same farmland that currently only produces one might be a start. Most of the farmland here relies on winter rainfall to do one winter crop. If it were possible to so some other summer crop using irrigated desal water then the land will be twice as productive.

Kingy said:

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

The scale of the thing would have to be humungous. And the amount of energy required would be stupendous, too.

What about large linked floating solar stills sitting right there on the ocean? The type with the peaked top and rim collector. Even if they had low efficiency, they wouldn’t require the energy.

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

The Ord river is a good place to start.

That’s been going on for fifty years yet nothing much has really happened in the way of it becoming the food bowl that was expected of it.

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

The best thing would be to relocate agricultural industries to places where there is an abundance of readily available fresh water.

If we need to increase agricultural output by some staggering amount, as claimed, then getting two crops per year out of the same farmland that currently only produces one might be a start. Most of the farmland here relies on winter rainfall to do one winter crop. If it were possible to so some other summer crop using irrigated desal water then the land will be twice as productive.

That’s what has flogged the MDB to near death.

party_pants said:

diddly-squat said:

party_pants said:

Depends where you want the freshwater to go in the end. I was thinking most of it would be for agriculture, so you’ll still be pumping lots of freshwater uphill and inland to distribute it where it is needed. The desal plants we have on the coast right now are for supplying the coastal cities with potable water, not really for broad scale agriculture.

But we’ve got plenty of land in good sunny spots. Also got loads of wind power too.

The best thing would be to relocate agricultural industries to places where there is an abundance of readily available fresh water.

If we need to increase agricultural output by some staggering amount, as claimed, then getting two crops per year out of the same farmland that currently only produces one might be a start. Most of the farmland here relies on winter rainfall to do one winter crop. If it were possible to so some other summer crop using irrigated desal water then the land will be twice as productive.

Letting a Field Lie Fallow

In Short:
In agriculture, letting a field lie fallow (leaving it unplanted for a year)
helps restore the soil’s natural nutrient balance.

SCIENCE said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

New, electricity-free desalination method shows promise

Researchers from The Australian National University have proposed a new method for desalinating water that avoids many of the unwanted side effects of traditional desalinating techniques and that reduces the energy required by about 80%.

More…

mhajyq

In seriousness though,

Thermophoresis (also thermomigration, thermodiffusion, the Soret effect, or the Ludwig–Soret effect) is a phenomenon observed in mixtures of mobile particles where the different particle types exhibit different responses to the force of a temperature gradient. This phenomenon tends to move light molecules to hot regions and heavy molecules to cold regions. The term thermophoresis most often applies to aerosol mixtures whose mean free path λ {\displaystyle \lambda } is comparable to its characteristic length scale L {\displaystyle L}, but may also commonly refer to the phenomenon in all phases of matter. The term Soret effect normally applies to liquid mixtures, which behave according to different, less well-understood mechanisms than gaseous mixtures. Thermophoresis may not apply to thermomigration in solids, especially multi-phase alloys.

good.