Date: 6/07/2024 22:42:34
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2172310
Subject: Emergence of large scale order

From Witty in chat:

The New Math of How Large-Scale Order Emerges
The puzzle of emergence asks how regularities emerge on macro scales out of uncountable constituent parts. A new framework has researchers hopeful that a solution is near.

By Philip Ball
Contributing Writer

June 10, 2024

A few centuries ago, the swirling polychromatic chaos of Jupiter’s atmosphere spawned the immense vortex that we call the Great Red Spot.

From the frantic firing of billions of neurons in your brain comes your unique and coherent experience of reading these words.

As pedestrians each try to weave their path on a crowded sidewalk, they begin to follow one another, forming streams that no one ordained or consciously chose.

The world is full of such emergent phenomena: large-scale patterns and organization arising from innumerable interactions between component parts. And yet there is no agreed scientific theory to explain emergence. Loosely, the behavior of a complex system might be considered emergent if it can’t be predicted from the properties of the parts alone. But when will such large-scale structures and patterns arise, and what’s the criterion for when a phenomenon is emergent and when it isn’t? Confusion has reigned. “It’s just a muddle,” said Jim Crutchfield, a physicist at the University of California, Davis.

Read more:

How large-scale order emerges?

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Date: 6/07/2024 23:06:41
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2172311
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

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Date: 7/07/2024 00:09:55
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172314
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Any element of predeterminism?

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Date: 7/07/2024 00:51:33
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172316
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Hey, reading that article gave me the name of a band.

Free will and the atomic particles.

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Date: 7/07/2024 01:15:43
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172318
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Tau.Neutrino said:


Hey, reading that article gave me the name of a band.

Free will and the atomic particles.

This problem

There always will be things connected across small and large scale space time.

Taking away atomic particles, also takes away electrochemical and electromagnetic activity.

The universe is a work in progress that is evolving, involving different states over space time we can see this by looking back in time, each moment is connected from the past all the particles are moving from the past and into the future, free will is very microscopic, it exists in the electromagnetic realm, carried by particles.

Another name for a band.
Free will and predeterminisists.

Back in 5 years.

But not as a robot driving through a police station.

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Date: 7/07/2024 01:43:31
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172320
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Does the red spot experience free will?

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Date: 7/07/2024 01:50:06
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172322
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Tau.Neutrino said:


Does the red spot experience free will?

Gravitational forces keep it on the surface otherwise it would float off into space and wonder what to do itself. It could go to Uranus and become a red spot there.

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Date: 7/07/2024 02:48:11
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172325
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Tau.Neutrino said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Does the red spot experience free will?

Gravitational forces keep it on the surface otherwise it would float off into space and wonder what to do itself. It could go to Uranus and become a red spot there.

Free will, consciousness and religion, these and some others all appear to be in some kind of conflict between reality and the human imagination, consciousness is the sum of all it parts because it relies on the brain, the brain is an organ that relies on every other organ to exist, free will is a concept that relies on other concepts to exist. Religion is a meme that needs people to exist.

The idea of free will seems to be a way for some humans to place themselves above nature, religion is also a way for some people to place humanity above nature, consciousness seems to be an illusion as it can only exist as the sum of its parts, it needs a body to exist. I look back at the past and see its determining the future.

How they will reach an answer in 5 years will be interesting.

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Date: 7/07/2024 03:09:20
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172326
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Free will, consciousness and religion, these and some others all appear to be in some kind of conflict between reality and the human imagination.

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Date: 7/07/2024 03:12:16
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172327
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Perhaps the idea of free will could exist in the present some how.

It would be localised vs every thing else.

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Date: 7/07/2024 05:25:12
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172329
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Tau.Neutrino said:


Perhaps the idea of free will could exist in the present some how.

It would be localised vs every thing else.

I cannot see that as possible. It would infer separation from the universe.

A science fiction concept.

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Date: 7/07/2024 05:35:48
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2172330
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

How can you have free will in a universe where one atomic particle is under the gravitational influence of every other atomic particle around it?

There will be an answer in 5 years.

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Date: 7/07/2024 09:08:39
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2172373
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

I hope Tao enjoyed his conversation last night. :)

I’m just starting to read it now, and liked this bit:

“Rosas came at the topic of emergence from multiple directions. His father was a famous conductor in Chile, where Rosas first studied and played music. “I grew up in concert halls,” he said. Then he switched to philosophy, followed by a degree in pure mathematics, giving him “an overdose of abstractions” that he “cured” with a Ph.D. in electrical engineering.”

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Date: 7/07/2024 09:11:00
From: Bubblecar
ID: 2172376
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

I’ll have a look at that today at some stage.

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Date: 7/07/2024 09:33:38
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2172380
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Bubblecar said:


I’ll have a look at that today at some stage.

I’ll be interested to see what you think of it.

I thought it was QI (or even VI), but way too either-orist.

From the end of the article:

“But Crutchfield is optimistic. “We’ll have this figured out in five or 10 years,” he said. “I really think the pieces are there.””

To which I say, yeah, sure you will.

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Date: 7/07/2024 09:38:17
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2172383
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

The Rev Dodgson said:


Bubblecar said:

I’ll have a look at that today at some stage.

I’ll be interested to see what you think of it.

I thought it was QI (or even VI), but way too either-orist.

From the end of the article:

“But Crutchfield is optimistic. “We’ll have this figured out in five or 10 years,” he said. “I really think the pieces are there.””

To which I say, yeah, sure you will.

and I would add

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Date: 7/07/2024 10:40:25
From: Bubblecar
ID: 2172395
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Well I’ve read it and philosophically, they’re saying what I’ve said for years, that causation on the macro level brings new information into the world that can’t be predicted from earlier, simpler states, and which then goes on to determine further change etc.

And “human will” is one of those macro determinist agencies that actively changes the world so that new deterministic patterns emerge. But it’s not “free” :)

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Date: 7/07/2024 10:54:41
From: transition
ID: 2172401
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

Tau.Neutrino said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Does the red spot experience free will?

Gravitational forces keep it on the surface otherwise it would float off into space and wonder what to do itself. It could go to Uranus and become a red spot there.

Free will, consciousness and religion, these and some others all appear to be in some kind of conflict between reality and the human imagination, consciousness is the sum of all it parts because it relies on the brain, the brain is an organ that relies on every other organ to exist, free will is a concept that relies on other concepts to exist. Religion is a meme that needs people to exist.

The idea of free will seems to be a way for some humans to place themselves above nature, religion is also a way for some people to place humanity above nature, consciousness seems to be an illusion as it can only exist as the sum of its parts, it needs a body to exist. I look back at the past and see its determining the future.

How they will reach an answer in 5 years will be interesting.

lot of assertion in ya assertions

how about free will is in something mundane people do every day, it’s in the running knowledge of what didn’t happen, what was prevented from happening, and what did happen that displaces and displaced what could have happened, that knowledge or sense for what was displaced or made not-so runs parallel to observing what is so, consequently it’s part of conceptualizing what is.

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Date: 7/07/2024 12:52:03
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2172433
Subject: re: Emergence of large scale order

and what we’ve said for years, which is that if one is unable to predict emergent properties from known behaviours of simple components, then one’s understanding is deficient and there is no special magic to the emergence, simply better understanding, and the better understanding is no more fundamentally different than the groups with emergent behaviours are fundamentally different from their components without apparent emergent behaviours

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