Date: 21/07/2024 08:18:23
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2177605
Subject: Fracking for geothermal

Posted by wr in chat.

What is the potential for this in Australia?

What are the downsides?

This article might be a bit disjointed since it had a lot of interactive graphics that I had to edit or leave out. Anyway you’ll get the gist:

How fracking could unlock a clean energy future
Technology pioneered by the oil and gas industry is fueling a new type of carbon-free power plant.

By Harry Stevens
Climate Lab columnist
July 18, 2024 at 10:05 p.m.

Southern California Edison, one of the country’s largest power companies, has just announced a deal to buy electricity from a seven-year-old start-up called Fervo Energy. Like other energy companies, Fervo will use hydraulic fracturing, or “fracking,” to tap an energy source trapped deep underground.

But instead of oil and gas, Fervo is hunting heat, a more abundant resource that neither pollutes the air nor contributes to global warming. The heat will fuel a new type of power plant: an enhanced geothermal plant.

Most power plants work by converting a turbine’s rotating energy into electricity. Many of the world’s energy challenges stem from this seemingly simple problem: how to get a turbine to keep spinning.

Coal power plants, for example, burn coal to boil water and pump steam through the turbine. They make reliable electricity, but they also emit pollution and greenhouse gases that cause global warming.

In contrast, conventional geothermal power plants capture steam from natural underground hot springs in places such as Iceland or the Geysers in Northern California. These require a rare combination of geologic conditions — heat, underground water and porous rock.

Inside a geothermal plant
Enhanced geothermal plants use technology pioneered by oil and gas drillers to reproduce the conditions of a conventional geothermal well. This makes it possible to extract heat in many more places.

Inside an enhanced geothermal plant
They start by drilling down to 10,000 feet. Then they turn the drill horizontally.
They pump in water, which fractures the rock and creates space for liquid to flow.
Instead of extracting oil and gas, this plant sucks up hot fluid. It can spin a turbine without emitting any greenhouse gases.

When completed in 2028, the new enhanced geothermal plant will add 400 megawatts of carbon-free electricity to the power grid (Southern California Edison has agreed to buy 320 megawatts; the rest will go to smaller power providers.)
That is less than one-fifth of the generating capacity of the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant, which by itself provides nearly a tenth of California’s electricity. But as the first power purchasing agreement between an electric utility and an enhanced geothermal company, the deal represents a milestone in the effort to limit global warming.

“It’s a big deal,” said Fervo founder and CEO Tim Latimer. “It shows the important role that geothermal is going to play on the grid as a 24/7 carbon-free energy resource.”

What’s at stake
Geothermal plants can run all day, every day.
Models foresee solar panels and wind turbines playing a large role in the carbon-free power grid of the future. But when the wind fails to blow or the sun is hidden, utility companies will need more reliable clean power sources. If they cannot add nuclear power plants and hydroelectric dams, they can turn to enhanced geothermal.

Enhanced geothermal has huge potential.
Conventional geothermal plants, like the Geysers in California, generate just 0.4 percent of U.S. electricity. Enhanced geothermal resources, which face fewer geological constraints, are more than 100 times bigger than naturally occurring resources, according to an Energy Department analysis. The Energy Department also estimates that there are 300,000 workers who already know how to frack and run power plants who could find jobs in the enhanced geothermal industry.

Electricity is just the beginning.
Enhanced geothermal can help cut emissions from other activities that produce three times the greenhouse gas emissions of electricity generation. Researchers are learning to extract lithium — a key component in electric vehicle batteries — from the fluid that comes out of the ground. Geothermal wells can also be used for heating, another major source of emissions.

Fracking supporters have long touted its supposed environmental benefits. George P. Mitchell, the Texas oilman who in the 1980s and ’90s sank more than a billion dollars into figuring out how to make fracking profitable, believed it would unlock so much natural gas that power plants would no longer need to run on coal, which releases about twice as much carbon dioxide.

It worked — and made Mitchell a billionaire in the process. Between 2005 and 2021, cheaper natural gas replaced so much coal that it drove a larger reduction in U.S. CO2 emissions than replacing coal with emissions-free electricity sources such as wind and solar.

Yet the natural gas unleashed by Mitchell’s fracking revolution was never a perfect solution. Burning natural gas still emits greenhouse gases, making it incompatible with the United States’ and other countries’ climate goals. Plus, some scientists now say that so much methane leaks during fracking that natural gas warms the planet as much as coal does.

Fracking for heat releases no greenhouse gases. But to meaningfully contribute to emissions cuts, enhanced geothermal will need to expand quickly.

Developers say they are hamstrung by a needlessly long permitting process, which takes years to complete. Lawmakers in both houses of Congress have introduced bipartisan bills that would make it as easy to drill for heat as for oil and gas.

Enhanced geothermal’s biggest constraint is how much heat can be found underground. The hottest rock is out West, according to a recent government assessment, but cooler rock formations could fuel power plants in Texas, Louisiana, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and at least a dozen other states.

Where geologic conditions are favorable for enhanced geothermal
.
To extract enough heat in places with cooler rock, geothermal developers must drill 15,000 feet or deeper, which is more expensive. Faster drilling helped the oil and gas industry dig deeper to squeeze more profits out of shale rock, and analysts expect geothermal drilling speed to similarly improve.

Still, investors may be unwilling to fund geothermal exploration in cooler, untested rock, according to a recent Energy Department analysis. Government-funded demonstration projects could ease investors’ concerns by proving enhanced geothermal’s potential in new places.

Funding 10 demonstration projects would cost $4.5 billion, the Energy Department analysis estimated. That amount would put enhanced geothermal on par with other clean energy technologies that received funding for demonstration projects in 2021’s bipartisan infrastructure law.

“I certainly think geothermal is deserving of more resources than it was awarded thus far,” said Michelle Solomon, a senior policy analyst at the Energy Innovation think tank, which supports enhanced geothermal.

Even in the West, where the rock is known to be hot, a government-funded demonstration project helped pave the way for Fervo’s wells. That project, known as FORGE, began in 2015 and did not generate power until 2022.

“I do not believe that any of the advances that have happened right now, with commercial liftoff of this technology, would have happened without federal dollars,” said Lauren Boyd, the director of the Energy Department’s Geothermal Technologies Office, who managed the FORGE project.

Boyd has worked for 16 years to make enhanced geothermal a commercially viable energy technology. Now, all the pieces are clicking into place. Fracking for heat has been proved to work, and the urgency of climate change is forcing energy companies and governments to look for new ways to make clean, reliable power.

“It’s really incredible to see this happen,” Boyd said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2024/fracking-geothermal-energy-plant-technology/?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 08:24:37
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2177608
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

You use natural gas power stations to stabilise and set system frequency with a battery system used as plan B to set system frequency ( you might use the batteries to turn a small generator to create a clean simple 50hz signal).

Wind should only be used where wind blows strong and consistently and where trees/ habitat doesn’t need to be destroyed / animals can’t be killed by the blades.

Hydro can be used but in a limited and achievable way

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 09:08:05
From: Michael V
ID: 2177609
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Geothermal power (hot granite type) has been trialled in Australia without success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Australia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Australia

see also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 09:51:52
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2177615
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Michael V said:


Geothermal power (hot granite type) has been trialled in Australia without success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Australia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Australia

see also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system

Thanks MV. I hadn’t heard about all that before.

So sounds like there is potential, but a lot of problems as well.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 09:59:08
From: dv
ID: 2177620
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:04:30
From: Dark Orange
ID: 2177626
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

What’s “Hot Dry” geothermal?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:06:13
From: Michael V
ID: 2177627
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

The Rev Dodgson said:


Michael V said:

Geothermal power (hot granite type) has been trialled in Australia without success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Australia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Australia

see also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system

Thanks MV. I hadn’t heard about all that before.

So sounds like there is potential, but a lot of problems as well.

Yes.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:07:46
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2177628
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

OK, suppose I’d better go back to waiting for wave and tidal then.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:41:45
From: party_pants
ID: 2177630
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

OK, suppose I’d better go back to waiting for wave and tidal then.

I’m still holding out for seaweed farming on land too salt-affected to be useful for cereal crops.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:43:05
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177631
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

Another 50 years maybe.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:43:51
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177632
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

OK, suppose I’d better go back to waiting for wave and tidal then.

Another 50 years I think.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:47:01
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177633
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

party_pants said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

OK, suppose I’d better go back to waiting for wave and tidal then.

I’m still holding out for seaweed farming on land too salt-affected to be useful for cereal crops.

50 years maybe

Like fusion which is always 50 years into the future.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 10:50:49
From: party_pants
ID: 2177634
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Tau.Neutrino said:


party_pants said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, suppose I’d better go back to waiting for wave and tidal then.

I’m still holding out for seaweed farming on land too salt-affected to be useful for cereal crops.

50 years maybe

Like fusion which is always 50 years into the future.

The technology exists today, it is just a matter of being price-competitive, which might never happen. So it is probably waiting on a regulatory environment which restricts or bans fossil fuel use and forces the substitution from other sources. Maybe certain sectors at a time.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:05:52
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177635
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

party_pants said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

party_pants said:

I’m still holding out for seaweed farming on land too salt-affected to be useful for cereal crops.

50 years maybe

Like fusion which is always 50 years into the future.

The technology exists today, it is just a matter of being price-competitive, which might never happen. So it is probably waiting on a regulatory environment which restricts or bans fossil fuel use and forces the substitution from other sources. Maybe certain sectors at a time.

Price competitive will take at least 50 years :)

Hopefully not that long.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:10:16
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177636
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Pardon my ignorance but why the use of fraking, why do drill?

Is the fraking a location thing?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:11:16
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177637
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Tau.Neutrino said:


Pardon my ignorance but why the use of fraking, why do drill?

Is the fraking a location thing?

Thats why not drill.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:15:47
From: party_pants
ID: 2177639
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Tau.Neutrino said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Pardon my ignorance but why the use of fraking, why do drill?

Is the fraking a location thing?

Thats why not drill.

It involves both. Drilling down into hot rocks first, then fracking (hydraulic fracturing) to crack/break up the rock at the bottom of the hole to make it more porous. It needs to be porous so the water you pump down there can get in amongst the hot rocks to be turned into steam.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:19:51
From: dv
ID: 2177641
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Dark Orange said:


dv said:

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

What’s “Hot Dry” geothermal?

Uh… pretty much exactly what it says on the tin? Geothermal based on hot dry rock that needs to be pumped with water from the surface in order for the heat to be utilised. Once the local fracked area cools the output drops.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:22:04
From: Dark Orange
ID: 2177643
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

party_pants said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Pardon my ignorance but why the use of fraking, why do drill?

Is the fraking a location thing?

Thats why not drill.

It involves both. Drilling down into hot rocks first, then fracking (hydraulic fracturing) to crack/break up the rock at the bottom of the hole to make it more porous. It needs to be porous so the water you pump down there can get in amongst the hot rocks to be turned into steam.

And note that the big issue with “fracking” is not so much the fracking part, but the chemicals used in the drilling process. If you start paying attention, you will notice the language changes depending on the end use product.

The traditional gas collection fracking uses “nasty chemical additives” to lubricate the drilling process, while the green energy producing Geothermal process uses “lubricants”.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:22:07
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 2177644
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


Dark Orange said:

dv said:

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

What’s “Hot Dry” geothermal?

Uh… pretty much exactly what it says on the tin? Geothermal based on hot dry rock that needs to be pumped with water from the surface in order for the heat to be utilised. Once the local fracked area cools the output drops.

Just wait a few million years and it will heat up again though.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:23:41
From: dv
ID: 2177645
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Tau.Neutrino said:


Pardon my ignorance but why the use of fraking, why do drill?

Is the fraking a location thing?

Fracking increases the effective surface area for the pumped water to touch the rock, thus increasing power.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:24:00
From: Dark Orange
ID: 2177646
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


Dark Orange said:

dv said:

It should also be noted that “hot dry” geothermal is not really renewable.

What’s “Hot Dry” geothermal?

Uh… pretty much exactly what it says on the tin? Geothermal based on hot dry rock that needs to be pumped with water from the surface in order for the heat to be utilised. Once the local fracked area cools the output drops.

So that term describes the environment rather than the process?
How long does the rock take to reheat once cooled?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:34:33
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 2177649
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

party_pants said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Pardon my ignorance but why the use of fraking, why do drill?

Is the fraking a location thing?

Thats why not drill.

It involves both. Drilling down into hot rocks first, then fracking (hydraulic fracturing) to crack/break up the rock at the bottom of the hole to make it more porous. It needs to be porous so the water you pump down there can get in amongst the hot rocks to be turned into steam.

Ok, thanks.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:45:09
From: dv
ID: 2177652
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Dark Orange said:


dv said:

Dark Orange said:

What’s “Hot Dry” geothermal?

Uh… pretty much exactly what it says on the tin? Geothermal based on hot dry rock that needs to be pumped with water from the surface in order for the heat to be utilised. Once the local fracked area cools the output drops.

So that term describes the environment rather than the process?
How long does the rock take to reheat once cooled?

Well how long is a piece of string? It depends on level of depletion, but many thousands of years.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:48:11
From: party_pants
ID: 2177655
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Uh… pretty much exactly what it says on the tin? Geothermal based on hot dry rock that needs to be pumped with water from the surface in order for the heat to be utilised. Once the local fracked area cools the output drops.

So that term describes the environment rather than the process?
How long does the rock take to reheat once cooled?

Well how long is a piece of string? It depends on level of depletion, but many thousands of years.

How long does it take to cool down to the point where it becomes non-viable?

Ball park – are we talking weeks, months, years, decades…?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 11:48:59
From: Tamb
ID: 2177656
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


Dark Orange said:

dv said:

Uh… pretty much exactly what it says on the tin? Geothermal based on hot dry rock that needs to be pumped with water from the surface in order for the heat to be utilised. Once the local fracked area cools the output drops.

So that term describes the environment rather than the process?
How long does the rock take to reheat once cooled?

Well how long is a piece of string? It depends on level of depletion, but many thousands of years.

~how long is a piece of string
I thought How Long was Bob Long’s brother.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 12:26:31
From: dv
ID: 2177673
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

party_pants said:


dv said:

Dark Orange said:

So that term describes the environment rather than the process?
How long does the rock take to reheat once cooled?

Well how long is a piece of string? It depends on level of depletion, but many thousands of years.

How long does it take to cool down to the point where it becomes non-viable?

Ball park – are we talking weeks, months, years, decades…?

That’s kind of going to depend on how much power you are drawing so it is easier to give a ball park in the amount of energy you can expect to draw, which is around 10^15 J (a petajoule) or about 250 GWh.

So that would be, for instance, 1 MW for 30 years.

This might seem like a lot, but consider that the Innaminka project that ended up with around that output cost 500 million dollars. I know that we could expect costs to come down as the technology develops, but you can buy and install a 3 MW capacity wind turbine, which can expect a 1 MW average output, for around 5 million dollars.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 12:33:08
From: Kingy
ID: 2177680
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

What about the recently volcanically active area in central Victoria, or Mt Gambier?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 12:38:40
From: dv
ID: 2177689
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Kingy said:


dv said:

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

What about the recently volcanically active area in central Victoria, or Mt Gambier?

I have no specific knowledge about central Vic in this regard.
The Gambier region has seen some trial projects some 15 years ago but the output to investment to say the least was disappointing.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 12:39:10
From: Michael V
ID: 2177690
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Kingy said:


dv said:

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

What about the recently volcanically active area in central Victoria, or Mt Gambier?

Depends on whether or not the magma chambers that stored the basalt before eruption was near the surface. I suspect they weren’t, as we don’t have associated active geothermal fields – eg geysers etc.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 12:53:13
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 2177699
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


Kingy said:

dv said:

I have done some work for geothermal prospecting in South Australia.

I’m going to say Australia is one of the least promising places on Earth for this technology, in terms of available resources. There’s just no low hanging fruit to get started on.

What about the recently volcanically active area in central Victoria, or Mt Gambier?

I have no specific knowledge about central Vic in this regard.
The Gambier region has seen some trial projects some 15 years ago but the output to investment to say the least was disappointing.

I think that charlatan Tim Flannery managed to get his hands on some free tax payers money for a woke project.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 13:30:58
From: roughbarked
ID: 2177715
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Peak Warming Man said:


dv said:

Kingy said:

What about the recently volcanically active area in central Victoria, or Mt Gambier?

I have no specific knowledge about central Vic in this regard.
The Gambier region has seen some trial projects some 15 years ago but the output to investment to say the least was disappointing.

I think that charlatan Tim Flannery managed to get his hands on some free tax payers money for a woke project.

Is he the only charlatan involved?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/07/2024 13:45:02
From: dv
ID: 2177724
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Peak Warming Man said:


dv said:

Kingy said:

What about the recently volcanically active area in central Victoria, or Mt Gambier?

I have no specific knowledge about central Vic in this regard.
The Gambier region has seen some trial projects some 15 years ago but the output to investment to say the least was disappointing.

I think that charlatan Tim Flannery managed to get his hands on some free tax payers money for a woke project.

Typical thuggery by Big Warm

Reply Quote

Date: 22/07/2024 09:24:06
From: diddly-squat
ID: 2177947
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Dark Orange said:


party_pants said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Thats why not drill.

It involves both. Drilling down into hot rocks first, then fracking (hydraulic fracturing) to crack/break up the rock at the bottom of the hole to make it more porous. It needs to be porous so the water you pump down there can get in amongst the hot rocks to be turned into steam.

And note that the big issue with “fracking” is not so much the fracking part, but the chemicals used in the drilling process. If you start paying attention, you will notice the language changes depending on the end use product.

The traditional gas collection fracking uses “nasty chemical additives” to lubricate the drilling process, while the green energy producing Geothermal process uses “lubricants”.

Water based drilling muds are pretty benign, they are mostly just bentonite, barite, some polymers, salts, lignites and ash/lime.

Oil based muds are a bit different, they are essentially diesel mixed with a calcium chloride brine that then used lime based emulsifiers (they tend to be more caustic than they are toxic). You can use bio-diesels instead of the HC ones, but kinda six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The issue with drilling and by extension fracking is managing interactions between the hole and aquifers. The holes are typically lined to protect aquifers but it can be difficult to control paths of fracking fluids of leaks occur.

If done to a high standard then drilling and fracking can have an extremely low environmental impact (note that this includes clean up of the drill sites).

Reply Quote

Date: 22/07/2024 13:07:26
From: dv
ID: 2178037
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

diddly-squat said:


Dark Orange said:

party_pants said:

It involves both. Drilling down into hot rocks first, then fracking (hydraulic fracturing) to crack/break up the rock at the bottom of the hole to make it more porous. It needs to be porous so the water you pump down there can get in amongst the hot rocks to be turned into steam.

And note that the big issue with “fracking” is not so much the fracking part, but the chemicals used in the drilling process. If you start paying attention, you will notice the language changes depending on the end use product.

The traditional gas collection fracking uses “nasty chemical additives” to lubricate the drilling process, while the green energy producing Geothermal process uses “lubricants”.

Water based drilling muds are pretty benign, they are mostly just bentonite, barite, some polymers, salts, lignites and ash/lime.

Oil based muds are a bit different, they are essentially diesel mixed with a calcium chloride brine that then used lime based emulsifiers (they tend to be more caustic than they are toxic). You can use bio-diesels instead of the HC ones, but kinda six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The issue with drilling and by extension fracking is managing interactions between the hole and aquifers. The holes are typically lined to protect aquifers but it can be difficult to control paths of fracking fluids of leaks occur.

If done to a high standard then drilling and fracking can have an extremely low environmental impact (note that this includes clean up of the drill sites).

There’s evidence that fracking is associated with increased seismicity, though I’m not aware that it has ever been linked to actual harm.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/07/2024 13:11:55
From: roughbarked
ID: 2178044
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

dv said:


diddly-squat said:

Dark Orange said:

And note that the big issue with “fracking” is not so much the fracking part, but the chemicals used in the drilling process. If you start paying attention, you will notice the language changes depending on the end use product.

The traditional gas collection fracking uses “nasty chemical additives” to lubricate the drilling process, while the green energy producing Geothermal process uses “lubricants”.

Water based drilling muds are pretty benign, they are mostly just bentonite, barite, some polymers, salts, lignites and ash/lime.

Oil based muds are a bit different, they are essentially diesel mixed with a calcium chloride brine that then used lime based emulsifiers (they tend to be more caustic than they are toxic). You can use bio-diesels instead of the HC ones, but kinda six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The issue with drilling and by extension fracking is managing interactions between the hole and aquifers. The holes are typically lined to protect aquifers but it can be difficult to control paths of fracking fluids of leaks occur.

If done to a high standard then drilling and fracking can have an extremely low environmental impact (note that this includes clean up of the drill sites).

There’s evidence that fracking is associated with increased seismicity, though I’m not aware that it has ever been linked to actual harm.

Depends where it is done, I suppose.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:02:14
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178142
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

One thing I was vaguely nosing around was compressed air storage. To help boost my energy storage from the solar cells I coukd install a relatively small tank and compressor in a concrete pit ( noise considerations / sudden pressure release?).

High pressure air is used to run an electrical generator during the night / peak periods to slow down draining my batteries eg a 3kw air con that chews power during summer.

Lower pressure air can be used but it requires a HUGE tank – more efficient. Higher pressure air can be used, smaller tank but much less efficient. The compressor and tank lasts much more than batteries, no chance of fire, no toxic chemicals, when service life is reached in decades its simply sent for metal recycling.

You could line the pit with sound absorbing tiles. Maybe a room would be better for maintenance considerations.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:03:37
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178144
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

For my needs I’d only need 3kw output for 4-5 hours Max to cover the air con use.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:10:09
From: Kingy
ID: 2178147
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

wookiemeister said:


One thing I was vaguely nosing around was compressed air storage. To help boost my energy storage from the solar cells I coukd install a relatively small tank and compressor in a concrete pit ( noise considerations / sudden pressure release?).

High pressure air is used to run an electrical generator during the night / peak periods to slow down draining my batteries eg a 3kw air con that chews power during summer.

Lower pressure air can be used but it requires a HUGE tank – more efficient. Higher pressure air can be used, smaller tank but much less efficient. The compressor and tank lasts much more than batteries, no chance of fire, no toxic chemicals, when service life is reached in decades its simply sent for metal recycling.

You could line the pit with sound absorbing tiles. Maybe a room would be better for maintenance considerations.

I agree with you on this. I often wondered just how much energy could be stored in giant compressed air tanks. No special minerals required, just a large steel tank.

There are very large LPG tanks available, obviously LNG has more joules per cubic meter than compressed air, but compressed air is easily available & clean.

Pump it up with wind turbines & solar panels, then use it to run generators.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:22:04
From: party_pants
ID: 2178155
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Kingy said:


wookiemeister said:

One thing I was vaguely nosing around was compressed air storage. To help boost my energy storage from the solar cells I coukd install a relatively small tank and compressor in a concrete pit ( noise considerations / sudden pressure release?).

High pressure air is used to run an electrical generator during the night / peak periods to slow down draining my batteries eg a 3kw air con that chews power during summer.

Lower pressure air can be used but it requires a HUGE tank – more efficient. Higher pressure air can be used, smaller tank but much less efficient. The compressor and tank lasts much more than batteries, no chance of fire, no toxic chemicals, when service life is reached in decades its simply sent for metal recycling.

You could line the pit with sound absorbing tiles. Maybe a room would be better for maintenance considerations.

I agree with you on this. I often wondered just how much energy could be stored in giant compressed air tanks. No special minerals required, just a large steel tank.

There are very large LPG tanks available, obviously LNG has more joules per cubic meter than compressed air, but compressed air is easily available & clean.

Pump it up with wind turbines & solar panels, then use it to run generators.

You lose a lot of the energy in the form of heat during compression, which is difficult to recover.

A tank of compressed air will gradually cool down to ambient, and then when you release it, it will cool down the tank rapidly. I mean, this is the basic principle of refrigeration. So unless you can do something useful with either the heating or the cooling effect (or both) you are wasting lots of energy.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:22:30
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178156
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Kingy said:


wookiemeister said:

One thing I was vaguely nosing around was compressed air storage. To help boost my energy storage from the solar cells I coukd install a relatively small tank and compressor in a concrete pit ( noise considerations / sudden pressure release?).

High pressure air is used to run an electrical generator during the night / peak periods to slow down draining my batteries eg a 3kw air con that chews power during summer.

Lower pressure air can be used but it requires a HUGE tank – more efficient. Higher pressure air can be used, smaller tank but much less efficient. The compressor and tank lasts much more than batteries, no chance of fire, no toxic chemicals, when service life is reached in decades its simply sent for metal recycling.

You could line the pit with sound absorbing tiles. Maybe a room would be better for maintenance considerations.

I agree with you on this. I often wondered just how much energy could be stored in giant compressed air tanks. No special minerals required, just a large steel tank.

There are very large LPG tanks available, obviously LNG has more joules per cubic meter than compressed air, but compressed air is easily available & clean.

Pump it up with wind turbines & solar panels, then use it to run generators.


Cheap, effective, no toxic chemicals – just air

There’s a long service life. These kinds of system are indeed already available.

When the air is compressed it loses energy I think as heat has to be disapated through fins like a motorcycle engine. It represents an energy loss I think. When the air is finally released it absorbs heat energy.

A compressed air system could be installed into many homes fairly quickly with little effort.

No exotic minerals require to be mined – mainly iron.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:26:52
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178157
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Maybe the compressed air runs through a tank of hot water heated by the sun just before its released into pistons? If you used those glass vacuum tube collectors that water would be very hot very quickly. You transfer all that heat energy collected by the sun into the compressed air as it comes out. Heat from compression could be collected by the same water tank.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:30:03
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178158
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

You have one compressed air tank , a compressor generator unit and a tank of hot water made hot by compressing air and the sun. Excess hot water could be used for washing.

The vacuum tube type collectors are monsters when it comes to collecting energy from the sun.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:33:48
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178159
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

Instead of government mega projects you encourage individual households to install these things?

The biggest thing would noise

A colorbond shed heavy with sound absorbing tiles coukd be the go.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:40:12
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178160
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

You design and manufacture the ultimate tank and compressor for maximum service life here in Australia.

You’d have one team that lays a concrete slab

Another team installs the colorbond shed

Another team sets up the hot water tank.

The next team installs the tank/ generator set up.

The next team installs an inverter

Next team connects the inverter to the MSB

An inspector comes along and commissions it.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:42:11
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178161
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

In such a system the energy is stored in water and air

With electricity from the sun powering the compressor

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:45:06
From: party_pants
ID: 2178162
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

wookiemeister said:


Instead of government mega projects you encourage individual households to install these things?

The biggest thing would noise

A colorbond shed heavy with sound absorbing tiles coukd be the go.

They’re a bit extraspensive, probably comparable in cost to a battery set-up. We had to install a bigger one a work when we got the CNC cutting installed. Was not cheap – several thousands of dollars. We had an ordinary 240 volt one which powered a couple of machines, but this cutting machine needed a specialist big one. We built the colourbond tin shed for it, and coated it with acoustic tiles inside and all that.. They make a big difference but I think it would still be too loud for a residential setting.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:50:15
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178164
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

party_pants said:


wookiemeister said:

Instead of government mega projects you encourage individual households to install these things?

The biggest thing would noise

A colorbond shed heavy with sound absorbing tiles coukd be the go.

They’re a bit extraspensive, probably comparable in cost to a battery set-up. We had to install a bigger one a work when we got the CNC cutting installed. Was not cheap – several thousands of dollars. We had an ordinary 240 volt one which powered a couple of machines, but this cutting machine needed a specialist big one. We built the colourbond tin shed for it, and coated it with acoustic tiles inside and all that.. They make a big difference but I think it would still be too loud for a residential setting.


What made them go for compressed air generators rather than batteries?

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:53:21
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178167
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

If I ever did it I’d use it to power a 1kw air con perhaps – separately. The air con would plug into a socket not part of the grid. It would be more of an experiment.

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Date: 22/07/2024 22:55:18
From: wookiemeister
ID: 2178168
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

The white paint on my house reflects a crazy amount of energy away from the walls ( house is easier to cool)

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Date: 22/07/2024 23:09:16
From: party_pants
ID: 2178170
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

wookiemeister said:


party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

Instead of government mega projects you encourage individual households to install these things?

The biggest thing would noise

A colorbond shed heavy with sound absorbing tiles coukd be the go.

They’re a bit extraspensive, probably comparable in cost to a battery set-up. We had to install a bigger one a work when we got the CNC cutting installed. Was not cheap – several thousands of dollars. We had an ordinary 240 volt one which powered a couple of machines, but this cutting machine needed a specialist big one. We built the colourbond tin shed for it, and coated it with acoustic tiles inside and all that.. They make a big difference but I think it would still be too loud for a residential setting.


What made them go for compressed air generators rather than batteries?

dunno. A big heavy industrial machine it runs on compressed air instead of electricity, as many such things do. The table is about 4m x 6m. It has suction holes throughout to hold the material being cut in place. The cutting head moves on a two dimensional frame, with full rotation, and pressure control for the cutting depth. The whole shebang runs on compressed air, and they said you’ll need a compressor of X capacity to run it. We also had to get fixed air lines installed, Plus the compressors runs on 3-phase so the electricians had to instal that. The tank is about twice as long and twice as wide as the old 240 volt one we had. So only about 4-5 times the size, but the increase in cost was a bit staggering. We also had to get a moisture remover contraption. This only supplies a few minutes worth of air before the motor kicks in again and refills the tank with more air.

So if you are relying on a big tank for longer term storage of several hours worth of energy, you’re going to need a huge tank.

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Date: 23/07/2024 06:43:39
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2178179
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

might as well use that iron to manufacture a bunch of high quality springs or flywheels and then

the smaller the springs the finer the control and then

you could have atomic scale springs and throw in a little lithium and phosphorus and oxygen all similarly common and not very exotic stuff you can just dig up and then

oh wait oh shit right

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Date: 23/07/2024 15:01:45
From: Michael V
ID: 2178382
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

I was thinking a bit about hot wet rock for geothermal power, as I have seen geothermal electric plants in NZ (near Rotorua) and at The Geysers, north of San Francisco in California. They seem to work quite well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_New_Zealand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy_in_the_United_States

So, I looked up Australian hot springs. Many are high 20°s C or low 30°s C, so nowhere near as hot as the NZ and US geyser fields, where their plants are located. One (Innot Hot Springs, southwest of Cairns) is quite hot. The temperature of the springs is between 74 and 85 °C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innot_Hot_Springs

Recent work by Lottermoser and Cleverly indicates that these hot springs (their measured temperature is 71° C) are generated by circulating meteoric water interacting with a fluorine-rich granite at at least 119° C, and probably quite a bit higher temperature. The flow from the hot springs is quite a deal higher in the wet season than the dry season, which indicates to me that the generation of the hot water is relatively close to the surface. It therefore might be quite easy to access and develop.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248955288_Controls_on_the_genesis_of_a_high-fluoride_thermal_spring_Innot_Hot_Springs_north_Queensland#pf4

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Date: 24/07/2024 11:39:22
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2178626
Subject: re: Fracking for geothermal

On Tuesday, July 23, at about 10:19 a.m., a localized hydrothermal explosion occurred near Sapphire Pool in Biscuit Basin, located just north of Old Faithful.

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