(Lifted from another place)
Australian right wing nutjob (RWNJ) groups alert. An interesting list, all of which are worth blocking on social media, otherwise you’re wasting your time. To this list, add the Internet ranter Les J Power – antiscience, labels anything near the Labor Party as “communist”
https://globalextremism.org/australia/
AussieDJ said:
(Lifted from another place)Australian right wing nutjob (RWNJ) groups alert. An interesting list, all of which are worth blocking on social media, otherwise you’re wasting your time. To this list, add the Internet ranter Les J Power – antiscience, labels anything near the Labor Party as “communist”
https://globalextremism.org/australia/
LGB Alliance is not a hate group.
That’s the trouble with lists like that (compiled by white male heterosexual lefties) – they refuse to acknowledge the diversity of views amongst the groups they claim to “protect”.
Oh, we’re starting off a fresh year defending anti-trans groups?
Personally, I think obsessing over what’s inside people’s underwear is extremely weird, but you do you.
Divine Angel said:
Oh, we’re starting off a fresh year defending anti-trans groups?Personally, I think obsessing over what’s inside people’s underwear is extremely weird, but you do you.
LGB Alliance Australia is based directly on the British original, which is a well-respected LGB charity.
LGB Alliance is indeed opposed to the standard trans activist ideology, insofar as that ideology and its agenda are aggressively homophobic and misogynist.
But you do you.
Divine Angel said:
Oh, we’re starting off a fresh year defending anti-trans groups?Personally, I think obsessing over what’s inside people’s underwear is extremely weird, but you do you.
they certainly don’t get a good mark on the wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
JudgeMental said:
Divine Angel said:
Oh, we’re starting off a fresh year defending anti-trans groups?Personally, I think obsessing over what’s inside people’s underwear is extremely weird, but you do you.
they certainly don’t get a good mark on the wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
Obviously they’ve been described as “transphobic” by the trans groups and their allies. There’s a war on :)
But which side you choose to side with says a lot about your knowledge of this debate, your respect or otherwise for science and empirical realism, and whether you think women’s sex-based rights are at all valuable.
Most lefties still automatically side with what the other ignorant lefties side with. And then wonder why the left is increasingly being abandoned by rational people.
I’m through with trying to encourage people to properly investigate the issue, so yeah, you do you :)
Bubblecar said:
JudgeMental said:
Divine Angel said:
Oh, we’re starting off a fresh year defending anti-trans groups?Personally, I think obsessing over what’s inside people’s underwear is extremely weird, but you do you.
they certainly don’t get a good mark on the wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
Obviously they’ve been described as “transphobic” by the trans groups and their allies. There’s a war on :)
But which side you choose to side with says a lot about your knowledge of this debate, your respect or otherwise for science and empirical realism, and whether you think women’s sex-based rights are at all valuable.
Most lefties still automatically side with what the other ignorant lefties side with. And then wonder why the left is increasingly being abandoned by rational people.
I’m through with trying to encourage people to properly investigate the issue, so yeah, you do you :)
LGB Alliance UK explain themselves in their own words
https://lgballiance.org.uk/about/
Bubblecar said:
JudgeMental said:
Divine Angel said:
Oh, we’re starting off a fresh year defending anti-trans groups?Personally, I think obsessing over what’s inside people’s underwear is extremely weird, but you do you.
they certainly don’t get a good mark on the wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
Obviously they’ve been described as “transphobic” by the trans groups and their allies. There’s a war on :)
But which side you choose to side with says a lot about your knowledge of this debate, your respect or otherwise for science and empirical realism, and whether you think women’s sex-based rights are at all valuable.
Most lefties still automatically side with what the other ignorant lefties side with. And then wonder why the left is increasingly being abandoned by rational people.
I’m through with trying to encourage people to properly investigate the issue, so yeah, you do you :)
Oh for fuck’s sake. Can you just stfu?
“Science” and “empirical evidence “ of what, exactly?
I got nothing to do and a whole world of peer reviewed academic research at my fingertips.
Come at me, bro.
Signed, Proud Trans Ally 🏳️⚧️
kii said:
Oh for fuck’s sake. Can you just stfu?
I would guess… probably not :p
LOL
Divine Angel said:
“Science” and “empirical evidence “ of what, exactly?I got nothing to do and a whole world of peer reviewed academic research at my fingertips.
Come at me, bro.
Signed, Proud Trans Ally 🏳️⚧️
I’m presuming this relates to Bubblecar’s comment. I can give you a place that puts a lot of the research together, with links. Whether you are a fan of SEGM or not, doesn’t matter. You don’t have to read their analysis, you can just go and read the original paper and analyse for yourself. They have been going for 6 years now, I think, so there are a lot of papers to read. Probably easiest just to go to the “Studies” link, which presents recent papers of interest first, and then some organized into categories. Some of the other tabs are also interesting.
buffy said:
Divine Angel said:“Science” and “empirical evidence “ of what, exactly?I got nothing to do and a whole world of peer reviewed academic research at my fingertips.
Come at me, bro.
Signed, Proud Trans Ally 🏳️⚧️
I’m presuming this relates to Bubblecar’s comment. I can give you a place that puts a lot of the research together, with links. Whether you are a fan of SEGM or not, doesn’t matter. You don’t have to read their analysis, you can just go and read the original paper and analyse for yourself. They have been going for 6 years now, I think, so there are a lot of papers to read. Probably easiest just to go to the “Studies” link, which presents recent papers of interest first, and then some organized into categories. Some of the other tabs are also interesting.
Papers that question the medical treatment of youths self-identifying as transgender are not evidence that those who are transgender are mentally ill nor an argument for Bubblecar’s misplaced belief that anyone here who pushes back on his arguments supports all or any of the more outlandish beliefs identified with radical transgender ideology.
Most users are completely silent as the drugs enter their bloodstream; others talk to users in neighbouring booths. Hardly any of the drug users appear to be euphoric or “high” once they’ve injected – many of them just get up casually and leave. Others hang around with staff. One user diligently attempts the local broadsheet’s weekend pop quiz.
2023
Witty Rejoinder said:
buffy said:
Divine Angel said:“Science” and “empirical evidence “ of what, exactly?I got nothing to do and a whole world of peer reviewed academic research at my fingertips.
Come at me, bro.
Signed, Proud Trans Ally 🏳️⚧️
I’m presuming this relates to Bubblecar’s comment. I can give you a place that puts a lot of the research together, with links. Whether you are a fan of SEGM or not, doesn’t matter. You don’t have to read their analysis, you can just go and read the original paper and analyse for yourself. They have been going for 6 years now, I think, so there are a lot of papers to read. Probably easiest just to go to the “Studies” link, which presents recent papers of interest first, and then some organized into categories. Some of the other tabs are also interesting.
Papers that question the medical treatment of youths self-identifying as transgender are not evidence that those who are transgender are mentally ill nor an argument for Bubblecar’s misplaced belief that anyone here who pushes back on his arguments supports all or any of the more outlandish beliefs identified with radical transgender ideology.
They include papers from the radical cohort. It’s been an interesting journey following the changes in attitude in various countries. As far as I can tell, the USA is still the most radical.
Bubblecar said:
Obviously they’ve been described as “transphobic” by the trans groups and their allies. There’s a war on :)
But which side you choose to side with says a lot about your knowledge of this debate, your respect or otherwise for science and empirical realism, and whether you think women’s sex-based rights are at all valuable.
Most lefties still automatically side with what the other ignorant lefties side with. And then wonder why the left is increasingly being abandoned by rational people.
I’m through with trying to encourage people to properly investigate the issue, so yeah, you do you :)
Being a trans ally means I have quite a lot of knowledge about the various issues arising within the trans community. What it boils down to is, and I’m going to quote Jane Fonda here, “Woke just means you give a damn about other people”. I care a lot about mental health, which encompasses effects of self-views, bullying, access to informed medical care, human rights, and societal views.
There’s certainly no dispute about the mental health of trans individuals. Even buffy’s SEGM studies have a lot of studies identifying mental health issues in the trans community. However, SEGM’s agenda is to prevent youths receiving gender-affirming care. As Witty pointed out, your argument seems to be about transgenderism being a mental illness and against biology, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
(Side note: once upon a time, someone here posted a meme about Elon Musk’s facial transformation, including hair transplants and sculpting of the cheekbones, nose etc. The meme’s caption was something about Musk adopting “gender affirming surgery” to which you replied, “No, it’s just vanity”. Vanity is, according to Merriam-Webster, “excessive pride in one’s appearance”. However, it could be argued that one is proud of one’s appearance as it fits a more masculine stereotype. Just something to think about.)
As previously noted, I have absolutely nothing better to do, so here’s all the things that are incorrect about your argument. (Where possible, I’ve noted a publicly available resource like a website, backed up by academic research which may or may not be freely accessible to the general public.)
SEGM’s agenda is preventing hormone therapies on kids, so their cherry-picked research supports their view. However, this isn’t the issue being discussed here.
First, gender and sex are not the same thing (Fausto-Sterling & Sung, 2023; Mazure, 2021); sex was the classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by the chromosomal complement, and gender was a person’s self-representation as male or female or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individual’s gender presentation. This is why trans people are often described as “assigned (sex) at birth”. Thousands of studies reiterate the same thing: boys and girls are raised differently according to gender stereotypes. Examples include clothing (Dear, n.d.; Shell & Grace, 2024; McCormack, n.d.), books (Bradshaw, n.d.; Dutro, n.d.), and toys (What the Research Says: Gender-Typed Toys, n.d.).
With the publication of DSM–5 in 2013, “gender identity disorder” was eliminated and replaced with “gender dysphoria.” This change further focused the diagnosis on the gender identity-related distress that some transgender people experience (and for which they may seek psychiatric, medical, and surgical treatments) rather than on transgender individuals or identities themselves (Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis, n.d.). Note the distinction that only some trans people experience gender dysphoria. To spell it out, it means some trans people are unhappy with the way they look versus how society deems they should look. Explicitly, this is not pathology, it is societal expectations (Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis, n.d.).
So far, we’ve seen that transgenderism is not, by and of itself, a mental illness or disorder. Let’s now look at biology.
I’m just going to C&P this part.
“The XX pairing as the gametes combine produces a female and the XY a male. However, given the complexity of the process involved in the creation and union of the male and female gamete, errors in sex chromosome pairing can and do occur and several sex-chromosomal arrangements may result (X0, XXY, etc.) with profoundly important and permanent phenotypic modification. Equally important but perhaps less obvious is the fact that mutations and/or deletions on the chromosomes involved can also produce a whole spectrum of abnormalities and even sex reversal. Sex-chromosome aneuploidy occurs in females with one X (Turner’s syndrome), females with three X chromosomes, males with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), or males with XYY (XYY syndrome).” (Legato, 2020). Note that the presence of a Y chromosome denotes a “genetic male” according to medical definitions. But, also note that due to these malformations within chromosomes, “males” can develop breasts, which is obviously not conforming to a societal expectation. (For purposes of brevity and clarity, we’re not going to dive into intersex people for this discussion.)
In the same book cited above, but in Chapter 4, they talk about the molecular differences in trans people. Again, I’m just gonna C&P.
“As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place much earlier in development (i.e. in the first 2 months of pregnancy) than sexual differentiation of the brain (the second half of pregnancy), these two processes may be influenced independently. In rare cases, this may result in transsexuality, i.e., people with male sex organs who nevertheless have a female identity or vice versa. It also means that in the event of an ambiguous sex organ at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not always reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.”
Later in Chapter 4, children are discussed. To paraphrase, kids mostly know their gender by age 3, however they continue to explore cultural gender roles through processes mentioned above, such as toys and books. Some kids do experience gender dysphoria, but 80% of kids who do experience it no longer do by the age of 12.
(Side note: there’s also an entire chapter dedicated to “biological” processes of same-sex attraction, but that’s off point. Interesting read though, if you get the chance.)
So here we are at chapter 8 of that book, which is all about the hormonal, psychosocial, societal and genetic factors which contribute to a trans identity (also discusses non-binary, but again, outside the scope of this conversation so we’ll leave it out.)
Now, this chapter has a lot of things like “Beyond SRY, additional sex-determining genes and transcriptional factors, such as SOX9, NR5A1, GATA4, DAX1, and DHH” which don’t make much sense to anyone except the people who wrote it, so I’ll summarise thusly:
A whole bunch of hormones, along with when they are released both in pregnancy and in a child, control gender
Male and female brains differ structurally. In trans individuals, the clear differences are not so clear, particularly in the stria terminalis and the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, along with low stomatostatin neurons (these are found in the grey matter)
In white matter of the brain, there are also structural differences, particularly in fractional anistropy scans (index of white matter infrastructure). Males and females have definite, and different parameters. Trans individuals fall between levels of the gender they identify with.
Mean diffusivity in the white matter was not siginificently raised in trans individuals compared to male and female subjects
Interestingly, when people of all genders were scanned using visual means (you know, the machines that light up certain areas of the brain), trans people reacted the same way to visual stimuli as the gender they identified with
Further, this book delves into studies done on twins. They found that gender dysphoria (and remember, not all trans people experience this) is highly heritable, indicating a genetic factor.
So we’ve now looked at the science and biology, as well as Western cultural influences, in the determination of transgenderism.
Any questions?
References
Bradshaw, J. (n.d.). Let’s Stop Labeling Books as “Boy Books” or “Girl Books”. https://www.readbrightly.com/boy-books-vs-girl-books/
Dear, S. (n.d.). 10 Hidden Messages in High-Street Kids’ Clothing (And Why We’re Saying No to Them). https://duckyzebra.com/blogs/news/10-hidden-messages-in-high-street-kids-clothing-and-why-we-re-saying-no-to-them?srsltid=AfmBOoomc3UU8HKdFqzIV0dlmodLj2RbAapH7Uagme3aw_KJZCn3qBE5
Dutro, E. (n.d.). “But That’s a Girls’ Book!” Exploring Gender Boundaries in Children’s Reading Practices. The Reading Teacher. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20205065
Fausto-Sterling, A., & Sung, J. (2023). sex was the classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by the chromosomal complement, and gender ,” was “a person’s self-representation as male or female or how that person is . In Principles of Gender-Specific Medicine (4th ed., pp. 23-38). Elsevier Inc.
Legato, M. (2020). What determines biological sex? In The Plasticity of Sex The Molecular Biology and Clinical Features of Genomic Sex, Gender Identity and Sexual Behavior (pp. 1-23). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/pii/B9780128159682000013 (and further chapters discussed above)
Mazure, C. M. (2021, September 19). What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender? Yale School of Medicine. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/
McCormack, R. (n.d.). Clothing: The Gateway to Trucks or Tiaras. https://digitalcommons.coastal.edu/honors-theses/414/
Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis. (n.d.). American Psychiatric Association. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis
Shell, J., & Grace, P. (2024, July 2). ‘Predator vs Prey’: The divisive new theory on girls’ vs boys’ clothing. Kidspot. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/predator-vs-prey-the-divisive-new-theory-on-girls-vs-boys-clothing/news-story/1eb9696be6766a59a356c3d2ac723c42
What the Research Says: Gender-Typed Toys. (n.d.). https://www.naeyc.org/resources/topics/play/gender-typed-toys
Divine Angel said:
Bubblecar said:Obviously they’ve been described as “transphobic” by the trans groups and their allies. There’s a war on :)
But which side you choose to side with says a lot about your knowledge of this debate, your respect or otherwise for science and empirical realism, and whether you think women’s sex-based rights are at all valuable.
Most lefties still automatically side with what the other ignorant lefties side with. And then wonder why the left is increasingly being abandoned by rational people.
I’m through with trying to encourage people to properly investigate the issue, so yeah, you do you :)
Being a trans ally means I have quite a lot of knowledge about the various issues arising within the trans community. What it boils down to is, and I’m going to quote Jane Fonda here, “Woke just means you give a damn about other people”. I care a lot about mental health, which encompasses effects of self-views, bullying, access to informed medical care, human rights, and societal views.
There’s certainly no dispute about the mental health of trans individuals. Even buffy’s SEGM studies have a lot of studies identifying mental health issues in the trans community. However, SEGM’s agenda is to prevent youths receiving gender-affirming care. As Witty pointed out, your argument seems to be about transgenderism being a mental illness and against biology, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
(Side note: once upon a time, someone here posted a meme about Elon Musk’s facial transformation, including hair transplants and sculpting of the cheekbones, nose etc. The meme’s caption was something about Musk adopting “gender affirming surgery” to which you replied, “No, it’s just vanity”. Vanity is, according to Merriam-Webster, “excessive pride in one’s appearance”. However, it could be argued that one is proud of one’s appearance as it fits a more masculine stereotype. Just something to think about.)
As previously noted, I have absolutely nothing better to do, so here’s all the things that are incorrect about your argument. (Where possible, I’ve noted a publicly available resource like a website, backed up by academic research which may or may not be freely accessible to the general public.)
SEGM’s agenda is preventing hormone therapies on kids, so their cherry-picked research supports their view. However, this isn’t the issue being discussed here.
First, gender and sex are not the same thing (Fausto-Sterling & Sung, 2023; Mazure, 2021); sex was the classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by the chromosomal complement, and gender was a person’s self-representation as male or female or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individual’s gender presentation. This is why trans people are often described as “assigned (sex) at birth”. Thousands of studies reiterate the same thing: boys and girls are raised differently according to gender stereotypes. Examples include clothing (Dear, n.d.; Shell & Grace, 2024; McCormack, n.d.), books (Bradshaw, n.d.; Dutro, n.d.), and toys (What the Research Says: Gender-Typed Toys, n.d.).
With the publication of DSM–5 in 2013, “gender identity disorder” was eliminated and replaced with “gender dysphoria.” This change further focused the diagnosis on the gender identity-related distress that some transgender people experience (and for which they may seek psychiatric, medical, and surgical treatments) rather than on transgender individuals or identities themselves (Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis, n.d.). Note the distinction that only some trans people experience gender dysphoria. To spell it out, it means some trans people are unhappy with the way they look versus how society deems they should look. Explicitly, this is not pathology, it is societal expectations (Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis, n.d.).
So far, we’ve seen that transgenderism is not, by and of itself, a mental illness or disorder. Let’s now look at biology.
I’m just going to C&P this part.
“The XX pairing as the gametes combine produces a female and the XY a male. However, given the complexity of the process involved in the creation and union of the male and female gamete, errors in sex chromosome pairing can and do occur and several sex-chromosomal arrangements may result (X0, XXY, etc.) with profoundly important and permanent phenotypic modification. Equally important but perhaps less obvious is the fact that mutations and/or deletions on the chromosomes involved can also produce a whole spectrum of abnormalities and even sex reversal. Sex-chromosome aneuploidy occurs in females with one X (Turner’s syndrome), females with three X chromosomes, males with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), or males with XYY (XYY syndrome).” (Legato, 2020). Note that the presence of a Y chromosome denotes a “genetic male” according to medical definitions. But, also note that due to these malformations within chromosomes, “males” can develop breasts, which is obviously not conforming to a societal expectation. (For purposes of brevity and clarity, we’re not going to dive into intersex people for this discussion.)In the same book cited above, but in Chapter 4, they talk about the molecular differences in trans people. Again, I’m just gonna C&P.
“As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place much earlier in development (i.e. in the first 2 months of pregnancy) than sexual differentiation of the brain (the second half of pregnancy), these two processes may be influenced independently. In rare cases, this may result in transsexuality, i.e., people with male sex organs who nevertheless have a female identity or vice versa. It also means that in the event of an ambiguous sex organ at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not always reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.”Later in Chapter 4, children are discussed. To paraphrase, kids mostly know their gender by age 3, however they continue to explore cultural gender roles through processes mentioned above, such as toys and books. Some kids do experience gender dysphoria, but 80% of kids who do experience it no longer do by the age of 12.
(Side note: there’s also an entire chapter dedicated to “biological” processes of same-sex attraction, but that’s off point. Interesting read though, if you get the chance.)
So here we are at chapter 8 of that book, which is all about the hormonal, psychosocial, societal and genetic factors which contribute to a trans identity (also discusses non-binary, but again, outside the scope of this conversation so we’ll leave it out.)
Now, this chapter has a lot of things like “Beyond SRY, additional sex-determining genes and transcriptional factors, such as SOX9, NR5A1, GATA4, DAX1, and DHH” which don’t make much sense to anyone except the people who wrote it, so I’ll summarise thusly:
A whole bunch of hormones, along with when they are released both in pregnancy and in a child, control gender
Male and female brains differ structurally. In trans individuals, the clear differences are not so clear, particularly in the stria terminalis and the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, along with low stomatostatin neurons (these are found in the grey matter)
In white matter of the brain, there are also structural differences, particularly in fractional anistropy scans (index of white matter infrastructure). Males and females have definite, and different parameters. Trans individuals fall between levels of the gender they identify with.
Mean diffusivity in the white matter was not siginificently raised in trans individuals compared to male and female subjects
Interestingly, when people of all genders were scanned using visual means (you know, the machines that light up certain areas of the brain), trans people reacted the same way to visual stimuli as the gender they identified withFurther, this book delves into studies done on twins. They found that gender dysphoria (and remember, not all trans people experience this) is highly heritable, indicating a genetic factor.
So we’ve now looked at the science and biology, as well as Western cultural influences, in the determination of transgenderism.
Any questions?
References
Bradshaw, J. (n.d.). Let’s Stop Labeling Books as “Boy Books” or “Girl Books”. https://www.readbrightly.com/boy-books-vs-girl-books/Dear, S. (n.d.). 10 Hidden Messages in High-Street Kids’ Clothing (And Why We’re Saying No to Them). https://duckyzebra.com/blogs/news/10-hidden-messages-in-high-street-kids-clothing-and-why-we-re-saying-no-to-them?srsltid=AfmBOoomc3UU8HKdFqzIV0dlmodLj2RbAapH7Uagme3aw_KJZCn3qBE5
Dutro, E. (n.d.). “But That’s a Girls’ Book!” Exploring Gender Boundaries in Children’s Reading Practices. The Reading Teacher. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20205065
Fausto-Sterling, A., & Sung, J. (2023). sex was the classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by the chromosomal complement, and gender ,” was “a person’s self-representation as male or female or how that person is . In Principles of Gender-Specific Medicine (4th ed., pp. 23-38). Elsevier Inc.
Legato, M. (2020). What determines biological sex? In The Plasticity of Sex The Molecular Biology and Clinical Features of Genomic Sex, Gender Identity and Sexual Behavior (pp. 1-23). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/pii/B9780128159682000013 (and further chapters discussed above)
Mazure, C. M. (2021, September 19). What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender? Yale School of Medicine. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/
McCormack, R. (n.d.). Clothing: The Gateway to Trucks or Tiaras. https://digitalcommons.coastal.edu/honors-theses/414/
Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis. (n.d.). American Psychiatric Association. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis
Shell, J., & Grace, P. (2024, July 2). ‘Predator vs Prey’: The divisive new theory on girls’ vs boys’ clothing. Kidspot. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/predator-vs-prey-the-divisive-new-theory-on-girls-vs-boys-clothing/news-story/1eb9696be6766a59a356c3d2ac723c42
What the Research Says: Gender-Typed Toys. (n.d.). https://www.naeyc.org/resources/topics/play/gender-typed-toys
Can we just define people by actions and inappropriate behaviour.
Going to get nasty people in all walks of life and that is what should be called out.
Certain cultural practices are wrong
Not because of the culture but because those practices exploit people or are outrightly wrong if people have any value.
Thanks for putting together an interesting read, DA.
:)
Cymek said:
Can we just define people by actions and inappropriate behaviour.
Going to get nasty people in all walks of life and that is what should be called out.
Certain cultural practices are wrong
Not because of the culture but because those practices exploit people or are outrightly wrong if people have any value.
thanks we think that’s much like what we said in that other thread, seems correct
Divine Angel said:
I’m just going to C&P this part.
“The XX pairing as the gametes combine produces a female and the XY a male. However, given the complexity of the process involved in the creation and union of the male and female gamete, errors in sex chromosome pairing can and do occur and several sex-chromosomal arrangements may result (X0, XXY, etc.) with profoundly important and permanent phenotypic modification. Equally important but perhaps less obvious is the fact that mutations and/or deletions on the chromosomes involved can also produce a whole spectrum of abnormalities and even sex reversal. Sex-chromosome aneuploidy occurs in females with one X (Turner’s syndrome), females with three X chromosomes, males with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), or males with XYY (XYY syndrome).” (Legato, 2020). Note that the presence of a Y chromosome denotes a “genetic male” according to medical definitions. But, also note that due to these malformations within chromosomes, “males” can develop breasts, which is obviously not conforming to a societal expectation. (For purposes of brevity and clarity, we’re not going to dive into intersex people for this discussion.)In the same book cited above, but in Chapter 4, they talk about the molecular differences in trans people. Again, I’m just gonna C&P.
“As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place much earlier in development (i.e. in the first 2 months of pregnancy) than sexual differentiation of the brain (the second half of pregnancy), these two processes may be influenced independently. In rare cases, this may result in transsexuality, i.e., people with male sex organs who nevertheless have a female identity or vice versa. It also means that in the event of an ambiguous sex organ at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not always reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.”Later in Chapter 4, children are discussed. To paraphrase, kids mostly know their gender by age 3, however they continue to explore cultural gender roles through processes mentioned above, such as toys and books. Some kids do experience gender dysphoria, but 80% of kids who do experience it no longer do by the age of 12.
(Side note: there’s also an entire chapter dedicated to “biological” processes of same-sex attraction, but that’s off point. Interesting read though, if you get the chance.)
So here we are at chapter 8 of that book, which is all about the hormonal, psychosocial, societal and genetic factors which contribute to a trans identity (also discusses non-binary, but again, outside the scope of this conversation so we’ll leave it out.)
Now, this chapter has a lot of things like “Beyond SRY, additional sex-determining genes and transcriptional factors, such as SOX9, NR5A1, GATA4, DAX1, and DHH” which don’t make much sense to anyone except the people who wrote it, so I’ll summarise thusly:
A whole bunch of hormones, along with when they are released both in pregnancy and in a child, control gender
Male and female brains differ structurally. In trans individuals, the clear differences are not so clear, particularly in the stria terminalis and the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, along with low stomatostatin neurons (these are found in the grey matter)
In white matter of the brain, there are also structural differences, particularly in fractional anistropy scans (index of white matter infrastructure). Males and females have definite, and different parameters. Trans individuals fall between levels of the gender they identify with.
Mean diffusivity in the white matter was not siginificently raised in trans individuals compared to male and female subjects
Interestingly, when people of all genders were scanned using visual means (you know, the machines that light up certain areas of the brain), trans people reacted the same way to visual stimuli as the gender they identified withFurther, this book delves into studies done on twins. They found that gender dysphoria (and remember, not all trans people experience this) is highly heritable, indicating a genetic factor.
So we’ve now looked at the science and biology, as well as Western cultural influences, in the determination of transgenderism.
Any questions?
thanks and yes, the big question (which to their credit we’re pretty sure Bubblecar have asked before) we have is as follows the following
because we’re not into the team sports of it so we don’t give a damn what’s an alison or a constantine or whatever
(there’s all this talk about sexgender and it’s this or that andor it’s this and that whatever, but) is there a third or more sex which is actually outside the axis of MALE-FEMALE ¿ and of course yous may extend it to a question about gender as well but obviously for example some people are into males, some are into females, some are into other animals, some are into 爱s, and so forth so we d’n‘o’ and are relying on yous to give a sensible answer
Cymek said:
Divine Angel said:
Bubblecar said:Obviously they’ve been described as “transphobic” by the trans groups and their allies. There’s a war on :)
But which side you choose to side with says a lot about your knowledge of this debate, your respect or otherwise for science and empirical realism, and whether you think women’s sex-based rights are at all valuable.
Most lefties still automatically side with what the other ignorant lefties side with. And then wonder why the left is increasingly being abandoned by rational people.
I’m through with trying to encourage people to properly investigate the issue, so yeah, you do you :)
Being a trans ally means I have quite a lot of knowledge about the various issues arising within the trans community. What it boils down to is, and I’m going to quote Jane Fonda here, “Woke just means you give a damn about other people”. I care a lot about mental health, which encompasses effects of self-views, bullying, access to informed medical care, human rights, and societal views.
There’s certainly no dispute about the mental health of trans individuals. Even buffy’s SEGM studies have a lot of studies identifying mental health issues in the trans community. However, SEGM’s agenda is to prevent youths receiving gender-affirming care. As Witty pointed out, your argument seems to be about transgenderism being a mental illness and against biology, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
(Side note: once upon a time, someone here posted a meme about Elon Musk’s facial transformation, including hair transplants and sculpting of the cheekbones, nose etc. The meme’s caption was something about Musk adopting “gender affirming surgery” to which you replied, “No, it’s just vanity”. Vanity is, according to Merriam-Webster, “excessive pride in one’s appearance”. However, it could be argued that one is proud of one’s appearance as it fits a more masculine stereotype. Just something to think about.)
As previously noted, I have absolutely nothing better to do, so here’s all the things that are incorrect about your argument. (Where possible, I’ve noted a publicly available resource like a website, backed up by academic research which may or may not be freely accessible to the general public.)
SEGM’s agenda is preventing hormone therapies on kids, so their cherry-picked research supports their view. However, this isn’t the issue being discussed here.
First, gender and sex are not the same thing (Fausto-Sterling & Sung, 2023; Mazure, 2021); sex was the classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by the chromosomal complement, and gender was a person’s self-representation as male or female or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individual’s gender presentation. This is why trans people are often described as “assigned (sex) at birth”. Thousands of studies reiterate the same thing: boys and girls are raised differently according to gender stereotypes. Examples include clothing (Dear, n.d.; Shell & Grace, 2024; McCormack, n.d.), books (Bradshaw, n.d.; Dutro, n.d.), and toys (What the Research Says: Gender-Typed Toys, n.d.).
With the publication of DSM–5 in 2013, “gender identity disorder” was eliminated and replaced with “gender dysphoria.” This change further focused the diagnosis on the gender identity-related distress that some transgender people experience (and for which they may seek psychiatric, medical, and surgical treatments) rather than on transgender individuals or identities themselves (Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis, n.d.). Note the distinction that only some trans people experience gender dysphoria. To spell it out, it means some trans people are unhappy with the way they look versus how society deems they should look. Explicitly, this is not pathology, it is societal expectations (Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis, n.d.).
So far, we’ve seen that transgenderism is not, by and of itself, a mental illness or disorder. Let’s now look at biology.
I’m just going to C&P this part.
“The XX pairing as the gametes combine produces a female and the XY a male. However, given the complexity of the process involved in the creation and union of the male and female gamete, errors in sex chromosome pairing can and do occur and several sex-chromosomal arrangements may result (X0, XXY, etc.) with profoundly important and permanent phenotypic modification. Equally important but perhaps less obvious is the fact that mutations and/or deletions on the chromosomes involved can also produce a whole spectrum of abnormalities and even sex reversal. Sex-chromosome aneuploidy occurs in females with one X (Turner’s syndrome), females with three X chromosomes, males with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), or males with XYY (XYY syndrome).” (Legato, 2020). Note that the presence of a Y chromosome denotes a “genetic male” according to medical definitions. But, also note that due to these malformations within chromosomes, “males” can develop breasts, which is obviously not conforming to a societal expectation. (For purposes of brevity and clarity, we’re not going to dive into intersex people for this discussion.)In the same book cited above, but in Chapter 4, they talk about the molecular differences in trans people. Again, I’m just gonna C&P.
“As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place much earlier in development (i.e. in the first 2 months of pregnancy) than sexual differentiation of the brain (the second half of pregnancy), these two processes may be influenced independently. In rare cases, this may result in transsexuality, i.e., people with male sex organs who nevertheless have a female identity or vice versa. It also means that in the event of an ambiguous sex organ at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not always reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.”Later in Chapter 4, children are discussed. To paraphrase, kids mostly know their gender by age 3, however they continue to explore cultural gender roles through processes mentioned above, such as toys and books. Some kids do experience gender dysphoria, but 80% of kids who do experience it no longer do by the age of 12.
(Side note: there’s also an entire chapter dedicated to “biological” processes of same-sex attraction, but that’s off point. Interesting read though, if you get the chance.)
So here we are at chapter 8 of that book, which is all about the hormonal, psychosocial, societal and genetic factors which contribute to a trans identity (also discusses non-binary, but again, outside the scope of this conversation so we’ll leave it out.)
Now, this chapter has a lot of things like “Beyond SRY, additional sex-determining genes and transcriptional factors, such as SOX9, NR5A1, GATA4, DAX1, and DHH” which don’t make much sense to anyone except the people who wrote it, so I’ll summarise thusly:
A whole bunch of hormones, along with when they are released both in pregnancy and in a child, control gender
Male and female brains differ structurally. In trans individuals, the clear differences are not so clear, particularly in the stria terminalis and the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, along with low stomatostatin neurons (these are found in the grey matter)
In white matter of the brain, there are also structural differences, particularly in fractional anistropy scans (index of white matter infrastructure). Males and females have definite, and different parameters. Trans individuals fall between levels of the gender they identify with.
Mean diffusivity in the white matter was not siginificently raised in trans individuals compared to male and female subjects
Interestingly, when people of all genders were scanned using visual means (you know, the machines that light up certain areas of the brain), trans people reacted the same way to visual stimuli as the gender they identified withFurther, this book delves into studies done on twins. They found that gender dysphoria (and remember, not all trans people experience this) is highly heritable, indicating a genetic factor.
So we’ve now looked at the science and biology, as well as Western cultural influences, in the determination of transgenderism.
Any questions?
References
Bradshaw, J. (n.d.). Let’s Stop Labeling Books as “Boy Books” or “Girl Books”. https://www.readbrightly.com/boy-books-vs-girl-books/Dear, S. (n.d.). 10 Hidden Messages in High-Street Kids’ Clothing (And Why We’re Saying No to Them). https://duckyzebra.com/blogs/news/10-hidden-messages-in-high-street-kids-clothing-and-why-we-re-saying-no-to-them?srsltid=AfmBOoomc3UU8HKdFqzIV0dlmodLj2RbAapH7Uagme3aw_KJZCn3qBE5
Dutro, E. (n.d.). “But That’s a Girls’ Book!” Exploring Gender Boundaries in Children’s Reading Practices. The Reading Teacher. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20205065
Fausto-Sterling, A., & Sung, J. (2023). sex was the classification of living things, generally as male or female according to their reproductive organs and functions assigned by the chromosomal complement, and gender ,” was “a person’s self-representation as male or female or how that person is . In Principles of Gender-Specific Medicine (4th ed., pp. 23-38). Elsevier Inc.
Legato, M. (2020). What determines biological sex? In The Plasticity of Sex The Molecular Biology and Clinical Features of Genomic Sex, Gender Identity and Sexual Behavior (pp. 1-23). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/pii/B9780128159682000013 (and further chapters discussed above)
Mazure, C. M. (2021, September 19). What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender? Yale School of Medicine. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/
McCormack, R. (n.d.). Clothing: The Gateway to Trucks or Tiaras. https://digitalcommons.coastal.edu/honors-theses/414/
Psychiatry.org – Gender Dysphoria Diagnosis. (n.d.). American Psychiatric Association. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis
Shell, J., & Grace, P. (2024, July 2). ‘Predator vs Prey’: The divisive new theory on girls’ vs boys’ clothing. Kidspot. Retrieved January 2, 2026, from https://www.kidspot.com.au/parenting/predator-vs-prey-the-divisive-new-theory-on-girls-vs-boys-clothing/news-story/1eb9696be6766a59a356c3d2ac723c42
What the Research Says: Gender-Typed Toys. (n.d.). https://www.naeyc.org/resources/topics/play/gender-typed-toys
Can we just define people by actions and inappropriate behaviour.
Going to get nasty people in all walks of life and that is what should be called out.
Certain cultural practices are wrong
Not because of the culture but because those practices exploit people or are outrightly wrong if people have any value.
I agree with you, Cymek.
SCIENCE said:
Divine Angel said:
I’m just going to C&P this part.
“The XX pairing as the gametes combine produces a female and the XY a male. However, given the complexity of the process involved in the creation and union of the male and female gamete, errors in sex chromosome pairing can and do occur and several sex-chromosomal arrangements may result (X0, XXY, etc.) with profoundly important and permanent phenotypic modification. Equally important but perhaps less obvious is the fact that mutations and/or deletions on the chromosomes involved can also produce a whole spectrum of abnormalities and even sex reversal. Sex-chromosome aneuploidy occurs in females with one X (Turner’s syndrome), females with three X chromosomes, males with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), or males with XYY (XYY syndrome).” (Legato, 2020). Note that the presence of a Y chromosome denotes a “genetic male” according to medical definitions. But, also note that due to these malformations within chromosomes, “males” can develop breasts, which is obviously not conforming to a societal expectation. (For purposes of brevity and clarity, we’re not going to dive into intersex people for this discussion.)In the same book cited above, but in Chapter 4, they talk about the molecular differences in trans people. Again, I’m just gonna C&P.
“As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place much earlier in development (i.e. in the first 2 months of pregnancy) than sexual differentiation of the brain (the second half of pregnancy), these two processes may be influenced independently. In rare cases, this may result in transsexuality, i.e., people with male sex organs who nevertheless have a female identity or vice versa. It also means that in the event of an ambiguous sex organ at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not always reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.”Later in Chapter 4, children are discussed. To paraphrase, kids mostly know their gender by age 3, however they continue to explore cultural gender roles through processes mentioned above, such as toys and books. Some kids do experience gender dysphoria, but 80% of kids who do experience it no longer do by the age of 12.
(Side note: there’s also an entire chapter dedicated to “biological” processes of same-sex attraction, but that’s off point. Interesting read though, if you get the chance.)
So here we are at chapter 8 of that book, which is all about the hormonal, psychosocial, societal and genetic factors which contribute to a trans identity (also discusses non-binary, but again, outside the scope of this conversation so we’ll leave it out.)
Now, this chapter has a lot of things like “Beyond SRY, additional sex-determining genes and transcriptional factors, such as SOX9, NR5A1, GATA4, DAX1, and DHH” which don’t make much sense to anyone except the people who wrote it, so I’ll summarise thusly:
A whole bunch of hormones, along with when they are released both in pregnancy and in a child, control gender
Male and female brains differ structurally. In trans individuals, the clear differences are not so clear, particularly in the stria terminalis and the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, along with low stomatostatin neurons (these are found in the grey matter)
In white matter of the brain, there are also structural differences, particularly in fractional anistropy scans (index of white matter infrastructure). Males and females have definite, and different parameters. Trans individuals fall between levels of the gender they identify with.
Mean diffusivity in the white matter was not siginificently raised in trans individuals compared to male and female subjects
Interestingly, when people of all genders were scanned using visual means (you know, the machines that light up certain areas of the brain), trans people reacted the same way to visual stimuli as the gender they identified withFurther, this book delves into studies done on twins. They found that gender dysphoria (and remember, not all trans people experience this) is highly heritable, indicating a genetic factor.
So we’ve now looked at the science and biology, as well as Western cultural influences, in the determination of transgenderism.
Any questions?
thanks and yes, the big question (which to their credit we’re pretty sure Bubblecar have asked before) we have is as follows the following
because we’re not into the team sports of it so we don’t give a damn what’s an alison or a constantine or whatever
(there’s all this talk about sexgender and it’s this or that andor it’s this and that whatever, but) is there a third or more sex which is actually outside the axis of MALE-FEMALE ¿ and of course yous may extend it to a question about gender as well but obviously for example some people are into males, some are into females, some are into other animals, some are into 爱s, and so forth so we d’n‘o’ and are relying on yous to give a sensible answer
Fair comment.
The Space Between by Nico Tortorella is a good place to start.
But I mean, to each their own, you know? If you’re wasting energy worrying about these sorts of things, then I’m glad that’s the worst of your problems. Live and let live ✌🏼
SCIENCE said:
Divine Angel said:
I’m just going to C&P this part.
“The XX pairing as the gametes combine produces a female and the XY a male. However, given the complexity of the process involved in the creation and union of the male and female gamete, errors in sex chromosome pairing can and do occur and several sex-chromosomal arrangements may result (X0, XXY, etc.) with profoundly important and permanent phenotypic modification. Equally important but perhaps less obvious is the fact that mutations and/or deletions on the chromosomes involved can also produce a whole spectrum of abnormalities and even sex reversal. Sex-chromosome aneuploidy occurs in females with one X (Turner’s syndrome), females with three X chromosomes, males with XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), or males with XYY (XYY syndrome).” (Legato, 2020). Note that the presence of a Y chromosome denotes a “genetic male” according to medical definitions. But, also note that due to these malformations within chromosomes, “males” can develop breasts, which is obviously not conforming to a societal expectation. (For purposes of brevity and clarity, we’re not going to dive into intersex people for this discussion.)In the same book cited above, but in Chapter 4, they talk about the molecular differences in trans people. Again, I’m just gonna C&P.
“As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place much earlier in development (i.e. in the first 2 months of pregnancy) than sexual differentiation of the brain (the second half of pregnancy), these two processes may be influenced independently. In rare cases, this may result in transsexuality, i.e., people with male sex organs who nevertheless have a female identity or vice versa. It also means that in the event of an ambiguous sex organ at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not always reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.”Later in Chapter 4, children are discussed. To paraphrase, kids mostly know their gender by age 3, however they continue to explore cultural gender roles through processes mentioned above, such as toys and books. Some kids do experience gender dysphoria, but 80% of kids who do experience it no longer do by the age of 12.
(Side note: there’s also an entire chapter dedicated to “biological” processes of same-sex attraction, but that’s off point. Interesting read though, if you get the chance.)
So here we are at chapter 8 of that book, which is all about the hormonal, psychosocial, societal and genetic factors which contribute to a trans identity (also discusses non-binary, but again, outside the scope of this conversation so we’ll leave it out.)
Now, this chapter has a lot of things like “Beyond SRY, additional sex-determining genes and transcriptional factors, such as SOX9, NR5A1, GATA4, DAX1, and DHH” which don’t make much sense to anyone except the people who wrote it, so I’ll summarise thusly:
A whole bunch of hormones, along with when they are released both in pregnancy and in a child, control gender
Male and female brains differ structurally. In trans individuals, the clear differences are not so clear, particularly in the stria terminalis and the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus, along with low stomatostatin neurons (these are found in the grey matter)
In white matter of the brain, there are also structural differences, particularly in fractional anistropy scans (index of white matter infrastructure). Males and females have definite, and different parameters. Trans individuals fall between levels of the gender they identify with.
Mean diffusivity in the white matter was not siginificently raised in trans individuals compared to male and female subjects
Interestingly, when people of all genders were scanned using visual means (you know, the machines that light up certain areas of the brain), trans people reacted the same way to visual stimuli as the gender they identified withFurther, this book delves into studies done on twins. They found that gender dysphoria (and remember, not all trans people experience this) is highly heritable, indicating a genetic factor.
So we’ve now looked at the science and biology, as well as Western cultural influences, in the determination of transgenderism.
Any questions?
thanks and yes, the big question (which to their credit we’re pretty sure Bubblecar have asked before) we have is as follows the following
because we’re not into the team sports of it so we don’t give a damn what’s an alison or a constantine or whatever
(there’s all this talk about sexgender and it’s this or that andor it’s this and that whatever, but) is there a third or more sex which is actually outside the axis of MALE-FEMALE ¿ and of course yous may extend it to a question about gender as well but obviously for example some people are into males, some are into females, some are into other animals, some are into 爱s, and so forth so we d’n‘o’ and are relying on yous to give a sensible answer
A worry with trans people is exploitation.
Sex change operations done on the cheap, not explained properly and pushed without proper counselling.
One would assume they are aware they aren’t biologically that sex and its cosmetic with hormones also used.
Trans people though can’t act like arseholes and then have a sook they are being picked on when they are being inappropriate.
Cymek said:
Trans people though can’t act like arseholes and then have a sook they are being picked on when they are being inappropriate.
That behaviour’s not exclusive to trans people.
Divine Angel said:
Cymek said:Trans people though can’t act like arseholes and then have a sook they are being picked on when they are being inappropriate.
That behaviour’s not exclusive to trans people.
Its not, no.
It was just an example of how some people act.
what a legend
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-05/bruce-lehrmann-launches-high-court-appeal/106201754
SCIENCE said:
what a legend
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-05/bruce-lehrmann-launches-high-court-appeal/106201754
Another one who needs to stfu. Along with that horror, Linda Reynolds.
SCIENCE said:
Looks easy to score a hole in one.
SCIENCE said:
Is that a metaphor for Victoria’s state finances?
Witty Rejoinder said:
roughbarked said:
SCIENCE said:
Looks easy to score a hole in one.
Is that a metaphor for Victoria’s state finances?
Wait isn’t Heidelberg in Deutschland¿¡
SCIENCE said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
roughbarked said:
Looks easy to score a hole in one.
Is that a metaphor for Victoria’s state finances?
Wait isn’t Heidelberg in Deutschland¿¡