errr pneumatic/hydraulic I meant

Jing Joh said:

errr pneumatic/hydraulic I meant

Because it’s very reliable and works very well.

Spiny Norman said:

Jing Joh said:

errr pneumatic/hydraulic I meant

Because it’s very reliable and works very well.

So much better than cables and rods, that’s for sure.

Michael V said:

Spiny Norman said:

Jing Joh said:

errr pneumatic/hydraulic I meant

Because it’s very reliable and works very well.

So much better than cables and rods, that’s for sure.

Oh yeah. I could never really get used to the brakes on karts, no feel for me.

Spiny Norman said:

Michael V said:

Spiny Norman said:

Because it’s very reliable and works very well.

So much better than cables and rods, that’s for sure.

Oh yeah. I could never really get used to the brakes on karts, no feel for me.

There was something wrong with your kart then.

The brakes on race karts are very much touchy-feely.

I once had a go in a kart that some genius had sprayed CRC onto the brake disk. It was like an on&off switch. You either had no brakes or the rear were locked up.

Kingy said:

Spiny Norman said:

Michael V said:

So much better than cables and rods, that’s for sure.

Oh yeah. I could never really get used to the brakes on karts, no feel for me.

There was something wrong with your kart then.

The brakes on race karts are very much touchy-feely.

I once had a go in a kart that some genius had sprayed CRC onto the brake disk. It was like an on&off switch. You either had no brakes or the rear were locked up.

I’ve really only driven kart-track rental karts and so not exactly in the best condition. I did drive one once that was much better – It had a two-speed box in it, you’d just move a small lever and you’d go up or down in gearing. Epicyclic gears I think.
But, as you know I’m not exactly built for tiny little cars.
FWIW on my old racing car, the brake pedal moved about 6mm then went solid, no real movement after that. It ended up being just fine for controlling the stops.

Spiny Norman said:

Kingy said:

Spiny Norman said:

Oh yeah. I could never really get used to the brakes on karts, no feel for me.

There was something wrong with your kart then.

The brakes on race karts are very much touchy-feely.

I once had a go in a kart that some genius had sprayed CRC onto the brake disk. It was like an on&off switch. You either had no brakes or the rear were locked up.

I’ve really only driven kart-track rental karts and so not exactly in the best condition. I did drive one once that was much better – It had a two-speed box in it, you’d just move a small lever and you’d go up or down in gearing. Epicyclic gears I think.
But, as you know I’m not exactly built for tiny little cars.
FWIW on my old racing car, the brake pedal moved about 6mm then went solid, no real movement after that. It ended up being just fine for controlling the stops.

You would like a proper race kart. They don’t have the horsepower, but they do have the added lightness. And no suspension, just to damage your spine.

But fast as fuck when your arse is scraping the bitumen.

Kingy said:

Spiny Norman said:

Kingy said:

There was something wrong with your kart then.

The brakes on race karts are very much touchy-feely.

I once had a go in a kart that some genius had sprayed CRC onto the brake disk. It was like an on&off switch. You either had no brakes or the rear were locked up.

I’ve really only driven kart-track rental karts and so not exactly in the best condition. I did drive one once that was much better – It had a two-speed box in it, you’d just move a small lever and you’d go up or down in gearing. Epicyclic gears I think.
But, as you know I’m not exactly built for tiny little cars.
FWIW on my old racing car, the brake pedal moved about 6mm then went solid, no real movement after that. It ended up being just fine for controlling the stops.

You would like a proper race kart. They don’t have the horsepower, but they do have the added lightness. And no suspension, just to damage your spine.

But fast as fuck when your arse is scraping the bitumen.

Oh yeah!
Mind you my rear end in the old car was probably about 70 – 80 mm off the ground. The front of the chassis was about 45mm I think, then there was a bit of rake to help the aero downforce so my bum was higher. The seat cushion when pretty flat when I sat on it.

you can leave a bit of air in the lines, makes them pneumatic-hydraulic, not that fashionable but why not give it go, you can adjust the amount of air in the lines depending how spongy you want it, possibly a big advantage might be increased longevity of brake pads and discs or hubs, because you have reduced friction, and we all know friction wears things out, so yeah you’re half way to appreciating low-friction brakes. Saves on tyre wear also.

just so happens I am salesman for air to go in brakes, our marketing department came up with the perfect name for it, wait for it…brake air….yeah, made special for the job, we’re the world leading manufacturers and distributors of brake air, we also make super pure air for the brake air, for high fidelity braking.

it’s all win win with brake air, i’ve never had a customer come back with complaints, not one.

we also sell brake fluid to go with our highest quality brake air, the best quality available, optimized for compatibility.

being silly there.

hydraulic brakes and very reliable, and you can feel the pressure applied reliably.

Let me put it this way, what method do you prefer, Jing Joh?

BTW nice to see ya, to see ya, nice.

Hydraulic systems in particular are relatively large, heavy, need maintenenace and are full of a fluid which needs replacing.

Seems to me an electric system would be lighter, simpler, perhaps more reliable and also need less maintenance.

Jing Joh said:

Hydraulic systems in particular are relatively large, heavy, need maintenenace and are full of a fluid which needs replacing.

Seems to me an electric system would be lighter, simpler, perhaps more reliable and also need less maintenance.

I don’t know whether you have had electric trailer brakes or not. But I’d rather not. They are awful.

Jing Joh said:

Hydraulic systems in particular are relatively large, heavy, need maintenenace and are full of a fluid which needs replacing.

Seems to me an electric system would be lighter, simpler, perhaps more reliable and also need less maintenance.

Hydraulic systems are simple, logical and reliable.

Electronic systems are laggy, prone to electrical disturbance, and expensive to diagnose & repair.

Kingy said:

Hydraulic systems are simple, logical and reliable.

This seems like a “we’ve always done it this way” kind of statement. Not saying you’re wrong but I feel like a bit of engineering could produce a better system.

Jing Joh said:

Kingy said:

Hydraulic systems are simple, logical and reliable.

This seems like a “we’ve always done it this way” kind of statement. Not saying you’re wrong but I feel like a bit of engineering could produce a better system.

Kind-of. It’s been used for so long because those systems are very well sorted and mature. I’m not sure about these days but part of the requirement in Australia was to have a completely manual way of stopping the car With respect to that, hydraulics are best.
That being said I know that Mercedes in the last decade or so have got an additional braking system on top of the manual hydraulic system that when it senses the brake pedal is hit harder & faster than usual it’ll boost the pressure to the brakes.
There was also a rule about steering also being ultimately completely manual, but I think lately that’s been relaxed to allow for steer-by-wire, so no manual steering at all.

Spiny Norman said:

Jing Joh said:

Kingy said:

Hydraulic systems are simple, logical and reliable.

This seems like a “we’ve always done it this way” kind of statement. Not saying you’re wrong but I feel like a bit of engineering could produce a better system.

Kind-of. It’s been used for so long because those systems are very well sorted and mature. I’m not sure about these days but part of the requirement in Australia was to have a completely manual way of stopping the car With respect to that, hydraulics are best.
That being said I know that Mercedes in the last decade or so have got an additional braking system on top of the manual hydraulic system that when it senses the brake pedal is hit harder & faster than usual it’ll boost the pressure to the brakes.
There was also a rule about steering also being ultimately completely manual, but I think lately that’s been relaxed to allow for steer-by-wire, so no manual steering at all.

one obvious thing re brakes, possibly mentioned earlier, at least of a vehicle(not trailers for the moment) is hydraulic has immunity to electrical failure. And further, of any shared brake system say front and rear can be run separate (for redundancy also), they would be tied together by common electrical system so anything on the system with electric brake could fail together, same of trailer connected.

also hydraulic lines and piston units (masters and slaves) are substantially resistant to moisture and even stained full water immersion of slave units.

overall the complexity is probably lower compared to electric.

much of the calibration of forces applied of hydraulic is done by the driver ‘dynamically’ maybe is the word, and it’s entirely analogue I guess it would be accurate to say, and ‘proportional’ perhaps is the right word.

it’s a very accurate way to sense the stopping force being applied, and control it.

common pipes between two front wheels is quite a good way to reliably balance/equalize pressure on piston slaves, same of across rear wheels, and not sure exactly how pressure is balanced between front and rear, someone might explain that, maybe on common master so is same. I say that because some vehicles have sensor for weight on the back, registers sag, adjusts pressure applied to back(relative to front)

another thing about hydraulic brakes is they are substantially fire resistant, certainly solid metal pipes are, and thick rubber(I guess steel braided like hydraulic hose?) would be somewhat resistant for short periods to high local heat.

transition said:

Spiny Norman said:

Jing Joh said:

This seems like a “we’ve always done it this way” kind of statement. Not saying you’re wrong but I feel like a bit of engineering could produce a better system.

Kind-of. It’s been used for so long because those systems are very well sorted and mature. I’m not sure about these days but part of the requirement in Australia was to have a completely manual way of stopping the car With respect to that, hydraulics are best.
That being said I know that Mercedes in the last decade or so have got an additional braking system on top of the manual hydraulic system that when it senses the brake pedal is hit harder & faster than usual it’ll boost the pressure to the brakes.
There was also a rule about steering also being ultimately completely manual, but I think lately that’s been relaxed to allow for steer-by-wire, so no manual steering at all.

one obvious thing re brakes, possibly mentioned earlier, at least of a vehicle(not trailers for the moment) is hydraulic has immunity to electrical failure. And further, of any shared brake system say front and rear can be run separate (for redundancy also), they would be tied together by common electrical system so anything on the system with electric brake could fail together, same of trailer connected.

also hydraulic lines and piston units (masters and slaves) are substantially resistant to moisture and even stained full water immersion of slave units.

overall the complexity is probably lower compared to electric.

much of the calibration of forces applied of hydraulic is done by the driver ‘dynamically’ maybe is the word, and it’s entirely analogue I guess it would be accurate to say, and ‘proportional’ perhaps is the right word.

it’s a very accurate way to sense the stopping force being applied, and control it.

common pipes between two front wheels is quite a good way to reliably balance/equalize pressure on piston slaves, same of across rear wheels, and not sure exactly how pressure is balanced between front and rear, someone might explain that, maybe on common master so is same. I say that because some vehicles have sensor for weight on the back, registers sag, adjusts pressure applied to back(relative to front)

another thing about hydraulic brakes is they are substantially fire resistant, certainly solid metal pipes are, and thick rubber(I guess steel braided like hydraulic hose?) would be somewhat resistant for short periods to high local heat.

There is a physical proportioning valve that usually sends 70% to the front wheel brakes and 30% to the rear wheel brakes.

transition said:

Spiny Norman said:

Jing Joh said:

This seems like a “we’ve always done it this way” kind of statement. Not saying you’re wrong but I feel like a bit of engineering could produce a better system.

Kind-of. It’s been used for so long because those systems are very well sorted and mature. I’m not sure about these days but part of the requirement in Australia was to have a completely manual way of stopping the car With respect to that, hydraulics are best.
That being said I know that Mercedes in the last decade or so have got an additional braking system on top of the manual hydraulic system that when it senses the brake pedal is hit harder & faster than usual it’ll boost the pressure to the brakes.
There was also a rule about steering also being ultimately completely manual, but I think lately that’s been relaxed to allow for steer-by-wire, so no manual steering at all.

one obvious thing re brakes, possibly mentioned earlier, at least of a vehicle(not trailers for the moment) is hydraulic has immunity to electrical failure. And further, of any shared brake system say front and rear can be run separate (for redundancy also), they would be tied together by common electrical system so anything on the system with electric brake could fail together, same of trailer connected.

also hydraulic lines and piston units (masters and slaves) are substantially resistant to moisture and even stained full water immersion of slave units.

overall the complexity is probably lower compared to electric.

much of the calibration of forces applied of hydraulic is done by the driver ‘dynamically’ maybe is the word, and it’s entirely analogue I guess it would be accurate to say, and ‘proportional’ perhaps is the right word.

it’s a very accurate way to sense the stopping force being applied, and control it.

common pipes between two front wheels is quite a good way to reliably balance/equalize pressure on piston slaves, same of across rear wheels, and not sure exactly how pressure is balanced between front and rear, someone might explain that, maybe on common master so is same. I say that because some vehicles have sensor for weight on the back, registers sag, adjusts pressure applied to back(relative to front)

another thing about hydraulic brakes is they are substantially fire resistant, certainly solid metal pipes are, and thick rubber(I guess steel braided like hydraulic hose?) would be somewhat resistant for short periods to high local heat.

Substantially more reliable than electric wiring.

roughbarked said:

transition said:

Spiny Norman said:

Kind-of. It’s been used for so long because those systems are very well sorted and mature. I’m not sure about these days but part of the requirement in Australia was to have a completely manual way of stopping the car With respect to that, hydraulics are best.
That being said I know that Mercedes in the last decade or so have got an additional braking system on top of the manual hydraulic system that when it senses the brake pedal is hit harder & faster than usual it’ll boost the pressure to the brakes.
There was also a rule about steering also being ultimately completely manual, but I think lately that’s been relaxed to allow for steer-by-wire, so no manual steering at all.

one obvious thing re brakes, possibly mentioned earlier, at least of a vehicle(not trailers for the moment) is hydraulic has immunity to electrical failure. And further, of any shared brake system say front and rear can be run separate (for redundancy also), they would be tied together by common electrical system so anything on the system with electric brake could fail together, same of trailer connected.

also hydraulic lines and piston units (masters and slaves) are substantially resistant to moisture and even stained full water immersion of slave units.

overall the complexity is probably lower compared to electric.

much of the calibration of forces applied of hydraulic is done by the driver ‘dynamically’ maybe is the word, and it’s entirely analogue I guess it would be accurate to say, and ‘proportional’ perhaps is the right word.

it’s a very accurate way to sense the stopping force being applied, and control it.

common pipes between two front wheels is quite a good way to reliably balance/equalize pressure on piston slaves, same of across rear wheels, and not sure exactly how pressure is balanced between front and rear, someone might explain that, maybe on common master so is same. I say that because some vehicles have sensor for weight on the back, registers sag, adjusts pressure applied to back(relative to front)

another thing about hydraulic brakes is they are substantially fire resistant, certainly solid metal pipes are, and thick rubber(I guess steel braided like hydraulic hose?) would be somewhat resistant for short periods to high local heat.

Substantially more reliable than electric wiring.

what about internal combustion, how much more reliable than coils and currents is that

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

transition said:

one obvious thing re brakes, possibly mentioned earlier, at least of a vehicle(not trailers for the moment) is hydraulic has immunity to electrical failure. And further, of any shared brake system say front and rear can be run separate (for redundancy also), they would be tied together by common electrical system so anything on the system with electric brake could fail together, same of trailer connected.

also hydraulic lines and piston units (masters and slaves) are substantially resistant to moisture and even stained full water immersion of slave units.

overall the complexity is probably lower compared to electric.

much of the calibration of forces applied of hydraulic is done by the driver ‘dynamically’ maybe is the word, and it’s entirely analogue I guess it would be accurate to say, and ‘proportional’ perhaps is the right word.

it’s a very accurate way to sense the stopping force being applied, and control it.

common pipes between two front wheels is quite a good way to reliably balance/equalize pressure on piston slaves, same of across rear wheels, and not sure exactly how pressure is balanced between front and rear, someone might explain that, maybe on common master so is same. I say that because some vehicles have sensor for weight on the back, registers sag, adjusts pressure applied to back(relative to front)

another thing about hydraulic brakes is they are substantially fire resistant, certainly solid metal pipes are, and thick rubber(I guess steel braided like hydraulic hose?) would be somewhat resistant for short periods to high local heat.

Substantially more reliable than electric wiring.

what about internal combustion, how much more reliable than coils and currents is that

The bastards stop anywhere.