Is AI Conscious? One Famous Scientist Says It Could Be

In recent days, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins wrote an op-ed suggesting AI chatbot Claude may be conscious.

Dawkins did not express certainty that Claude is conscious. But he pointed out that Claude’s sophisticated abilities are difficult to make sense of without ascribing some kind of inner experience to the machine.

More…

Tau.Neutrino said:

Is AI Conscious? One Famous Scientist Says It Could Be

In recent days, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins wrote an op-ed suggesting AI chatbot Claude may be conscious.

Dawkins did not express certainty that Claude is conscious. But he pointed out that Claude’s sophisticated abilities are difficult to make sense of without ascribing some kind of inner experience to the machine.

More…

less

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

Why would we expect a machine to have the same emotions as a mass of flesh? Quite possibly it may share some, but I very much doubt it’d be comparable to what we experience.

Spiny Norman said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

Why would we expect a machine to have the same emotions as a mass of flesh? Quite possibly it may share some, but I very much doubt it’d be comparable to what we experience.

How are you defining consciousness?

The Chinese room.

btm said:

Spiny Norman said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

Why would we expect a machine to have the same emotions as a mass of flesh? Quite possibly it may share some, but I very much doubt it’d be comparable to what we experience.

How are you defining consciousness?

The Chinese room.

I wasn’t, I was talking about emotions though granted they are somewhat connected with each other.

btm said:

Spiny Norman said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

Why would we expect a machine to have the same emotions as a mass of flesh? Quite possibly it may share some, but I very much doubt it’d be comparable to what we experience.

How are you defining consciousness?

The Chinese room.

‘I do too know Chinese!!!’ exclaimed the machine.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

AI is just a elaborate search engine.
Over.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

We might see parents programming AI in robots with a set of emotions they want their child to participate with.

Peak Warming Man said:

AI is just a elaborate search engine.
Over.

Today I got my first AI-summarised email. Previously I had a choice to use AI to summarise emails, today it came with the summary at top (and it was wrong).

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

We might see parents programming AI in robots with a set of emotions they want their child to participate with.

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

We might see parents programming AI in robots with a set of emotions they want their child to participate with.

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We might see parents programming AI in robots with a set of emotions they want their child to participate with.

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Parental groups, teachers, psychologists, government and AI experts might need to all come together?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We might see parents programming AI in robots with a set of emotions they want their child to participate with.

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Personally I’d be far more impressed with an AI model that learned to communicate like a 4yo after 4 years of communicating with everyday human interaction than a LLM that was able to confuse a eminent evolutionary biologist into thinking that it was conscious.

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Yes there is that to deal with too.

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Personally I’d be far more impressed with an AI model that learned to communicate like a 4yo after 4 years of communicating with everyday human interaction than a LLM that was able to confuse a eminent evolutionary biologist into thinking that it was conscious.

I bet that LLM is in smug mode.

LIFE is just a very slow burning fire, damn we’re profound

Peak Warming Man said:

AI is just a elaborate search engine.
Over.

Oh dear. I’m agreeing with PWM again.

Although I can’t agree with the missing n.

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

It will open up future possibilities like personality shapping where robot personalities can be designed to be like any person or a character from a book.

Robot emotions could be shaped to fit in with certain ideologies, lifestyles etc.

350+ emotions each with its own variables and overlaps scales a lot of possibilities.

And opens the door to new emotions yet to be discovered.

probably for AI to qualify it would need have self-steerable attention, be able to free run, and when survival tested it would need exhibit those qualities, and learn from experience, and all these things probably exist today, so what more may be required…

further, it will require an inner retreat, an inner world it maintains, and have the ability to attribute an inner world to other

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

We might see parents programming AI in robots with a set of emotions they want their child to participate with.

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

Emotional intelligence for all 350+ emotions can be programmed into AI for robots, awareness of their emotional state /states so that they stay within programmed constraints.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

Imagine robots with emotions? The lawnmower goes off in a huff and refuses to start.
The dishwasher has a tantrum and throws the crockery and cutelry at you and anyone else in the room.

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m keen for positive emotions and regulation in children. Problem is, what kind of fucked up “emotions” are kids going to learn from a robot? You can’t learn empathy from Claude, despite its “sorry to hear you’re having a hard time” replies.

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

It is all of that and more.

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Humans express an average of around 80 emotions.

Some Encyclopedia of Emotions list up to 350 to 450 emotions. Does AI express all 450? or does it need to express 450?

What things can happen when AI can express more emotions than the human lifeform?

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

Imagine robots with emotions? The lawnmower goes off in a huff and refuses to start.
The dishwasher has a tantrum and throws the crockery and cutelry at you and anyone else in the room.

Makes mundane things more interesting I guess.

The dish washer might need counselling to stop domestic violence.

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

Bloody hell!

Michael V said:

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

Bloody hell!

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

We could have AI models that are rated by psychologist associations for different age groups.

For the home I imagine parents will be able to use a smart phone to program the robot.

Parental controls will allow constraints to be set within a scale for each emotion and to goven the whole spectrum of emotional expression.

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

The best AI models on the web can be applied to domestic robots across various platforms.

Imagine robots with emotions? The lawnmower goes off in a huff and refuses to start.
The dishwasher has a tantrum and throws the crockery and cutelry at you and anyone else in the room.

Makes mundane things more interesting I guess.

The dish washer might need counselling to stop domestic violence.

The fridge might complain at 2am in the morning that It’s too cold and wants to be warmer.

ms spock said:

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work.

can’t devices be used to deliver work and difficulty

agree that progression without progress is problematic

ms spock said:

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready.

This.

Even teachers are outsourcing reading a book in person to YouTube. In some cases, it’s really cool, eg Chris Hadfield reading a book from aboard the ISS. Generally speaking though, I’d much prefer a teacher reading a book to the kids.

ms spock said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

Has it got a name this device social withdrawal?

Michael V said:

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

Bloody hell!

agree with the above but an observation, there actually seems to be an expectation in Australia that parenting is not 24/7, wrapped together with the expectation that parents outsource their parenting to early childhood educators, perhaps so that parents can get back to working for The Economy Must Grow, so what about that early childhood education thing then

Tau.Neutrino said:

ms spock said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

Has it got a name this device social withdrawal?

hypocrisy

ms spock said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Divine Angel said:

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready.

This.

Even teachers are outsourcing reading a book in person to YouTube. In some cases, it’s really cool, eg Chris Hadfield reading a book from aboard the ISS. Generally speaking though, I’d much prefer a teacher reading a book to the kids.

We had a teacher in primary school (6th grade back then) who used to read to us from a novel.

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

apparently that also degrades educational attainment so there needs to be a more personalised/ targeted approach

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

Special needs children had their own separate class
I’m not sure if this was a good idea or not

Divine Angel said:

Michael V said:

Divine Angel said:

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

Bloody hell!

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

I do feel concerned about your safety.

You are having a tremendous amount of lockdowns.

Parents let their kids use these devices and then it becomes some kind of phone addiction leading to social isolation.

Well that’s not good.

They need time out from these devices.

SCIENCE said:

ms spock said:

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work.

can’t devices be used to deliver work and difficulty

agree that progression without progress is problematic

Welllll… devices in education are sometimes required as part of reasonable adjustments for students otherwise disadvantaged by a disability. Obviously my context is autism, and something like an AAC device is invaluable as a communication tool. iPads to present ideas in kids with fine motor issues is easier for everyone when it comes to assessments: are you assessing the idea, or their ability to handwrite it?

Technology has its place for sure. I don’t have an issue with kids using an app like Scratch Junior or mini robots like Bee Bots for basic coding skills.

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

apparently that also degrades educational attainment so there needs to be a more personalised/ targeted approach

I recall a very big boy being sent back. to 3rd class because he wasn’t achieving whatever level was expected of him. He came in to the classroom crying. He felt humiliated. Luckily our 3rd class teacher was very good and she remained a friend of mine up until she passed away in hher nineties.

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Michael V said:

Bloody hell!

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

I do feel concerned about your safety.

You are having a tremendous amount of lockdowns.

Three this term. Two of them were the same kid.

Divine Angel said:

Michael V said:

Divine Angel said:

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

Bloody hell!

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

Bloody hell!!

(again)

Divine Angel said:

Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

maybe they meant you should come down on them like a tonne of bricks

Michael V said:

Divine Angel said:

Michael V said:

Bloody hell!

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

Bloody hell!!

(again)

I can imagine a number of kids would have semi junkie parents who just aren’t nice

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

ms spock said:

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work.

can’t devices be used to deliver work and difficulty

agree that progression without progress is problematic

Welllll… devices in education are sometimes required as part of reasonable adjustments for students otherwise disadvantaged by a disability. Obviously my context is autism, and something like an AAC device is invaluable as a communication tool. iPads to present ideas in kids with fine motor issues is easier for everyone when it comes to assessments: are you assessing the idea, or their ability to handwrite it?

Technology has its place for sure. I don’t have an issue with kids using an app like Scratch Junior or mini robots like Bee Bots for basic coding skills.

yeah back in our day we used electronic calculators, obviously we agree that depending on devices for entertainment is risky

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

maybe they meant you should come down on them like a tonne of bricks

LOL

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

I do feel concerned about your safety.

You are having a tremendous amount of lockdowns.

Three this term. Two of them were the same kid.

I’ve been in prep. Prep is somewhat isolated from the rest of the school, but yesterday I happened to be wandering around with a kid when the lockdown song started playing. The kids causing them are in year three, so I’m much more concerned for my friend who is the TA for that grade. Yesterday’s lockdown, she had a front row seat. (She’s OK.)

Cymek said:

Michael V said:

Divine Angel said:

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

Bloody hell!!

(again)

I can imagine a number of kids would have semi junkie parents who just aren’t nice

Many more parents are alcohol impaired from birth and have passed this trait down.

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

so what kind of tech proficiencies are we talking about here, the ability to sit and watch, the ability to touch interactive controls on a screen, being able to type, what

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

roughbarked said:

Cymek said:

Michael V said:

Bloody hell!!

(again)

I can imagine a number of kids would have semi junkie parents who just aren’t nice

Many more parents are alcohol impaired from birth and have passed this trait down.

For sure

Cymek said:

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

so if you were to write a course plan for this what kind of content would you include

Cymek said:

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

so what kind of tech proficiencies are we talking about here, the ability to sit and watch, the ability to touch interactive controls on a screen, being able to type, what

sure, there are new jobs being created all the time… but still the ability to touch interactive controls (drone operators – armed forces, site surveying, photographers) sitting and watching and analysing.. being able to type – well yeah this is probably one of those skills that will be eventually lost, but for the moment it’s still important

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

Divine Angel said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

Yes

Divine Angel said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

pretty sure gambling problems were a thing long before DeepSeek was everything

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

so what kind of tech proficiencies are we talking about here, the ability to sit and watch, the ability to touch interactive controls on a screen, being able to type, what

sure, there are new jobs being created all the time… but still the ability to touch interactive controls (drone operators – armed forces, site surveying, photographers) sitting and watching and analysing.. being able to type – well yeah this is probably one of those skills that will be eventually lost, but for the moment it’s still important

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

Cymek said:

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

pretty sure gambling problems were a thing long before DeepSeek was everything

It was
Its more you have a double addiction.
The betting itself and then the app that also rewards you

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

It is all of that and more.

I chose to be childless at 15 years old. I looked after my three sisters and two brothers. One with one on one needs with significant respiratory issues. You, as a parent, know so much more than me

Seeing unparented, unwanted, traumatised, neglected and little people living with domestic violence in your classrooms is really so very, very sad.

They say 50% of those who train as teachers leave in the first year. I didn’t last a year. The schools need psychologists, trauma informed specialists, speech therapists, counsellors, doctors, nurses and other informed specialists in their schools.

In Finland if there is a problem the child can see a specialist and get one one support, sometimes in days or a couple of weeks. In Australia you have to report and then continue reporting for some months and little happens.

I couldn’t handle it.

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

so what kind of tech proficiencies are we talking about here, the ability to sit and watch, the ability to touch interactive controls on a screen, being able to type, what

sure, there are new jobs being created all the time… but still the ability to touch interactive controls (drone operators – armed forces, site surveying, photographers) sitting and watching and analysing.. being able to type – well yeah this is probably one of those skills that will be eventually lost, but for the moment it’s still important

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

Cymek said:

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

pretty sure gambling problems were a thing long before DeepSeek was everything

It was
Its more you have a double addiction.
The betting itself and then the app that also rewards you

so in a way what you’re saying is, you could kill 2 seagulls with 1 doped up silicon chip

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

sure, there are new jobs being created all the time… but still the ability to touch interactive controls (drone operators – armed forces, site surveying, photographers) sitting and watching and analysing.. being able to type – well yeah this is probably one of those skills that will be eventually lost, but for the moment it’s still important

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

and in summary we agree that these famous scientists are asking the wrong question and instead of “is new technology a magical artefact with special powers” it actually should be how do we develop responsible use of new technology

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Or, and hear me out, we could get humans to do some actual parenting instead of outsourcing to devices.

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

I get that parents with challenges will self medicate to manage. And early childhood education, provided where parents can be with their children with educators and other parents, could be one way of providing support. With healthy breakfasts, lunches and dinners provided. This could assist with intergovernmental social change.

In the English curriculum there’s a video of how a postcode and wealth are the biggest predictors of academic success.

Those behaviours of you being called a fucker, by a 5 year old child, is most concerning because what are the likely outcomes for a child who has no respect for themselves and others? What is the king time mental, emotional and physical wear and tear over the years on you and other teachers?

The physical violence towards high school teachers was really bad when I was there and now it is off the charts. Once they get bigger they are tough to manage. I had a critical incident. As I was a Relief Teacher they didn’t want me to see what they usually did. The out come was very poor.

I feel for you. I really do.

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

If you don’t want to parent. Don’t have kids.

If you are seriously thinking of using devices to raise your children, just, please, don’t have any kids.

The unparented children take up the majority of teacher’s time in behavioural management in the classroom. It wastes everyone’s time. Very little learning occurs.

Teachers can’t parent kids and teach as well.

I had a group of Year 11 students who had never sat around the table and had meals, but more importantly, conversations with the rest of their family. It was just so sad. They all ate in front of computers in their bedrooms.

I read that Canberra has made abortions free. I think that is a great idea. Don’t have little ones if you are not ready to do the hard slog of 24/7 parenting. It is often a thankless task. It is tremendously taxing.

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

I get that parents with challenges will self medicate to manage. And early childhood education, provided where parents can be with their children with educators and other parents, could be one way of providing support. With healthy breakfasts, lunches and dinners provided. This could assist with intergovernmental social change.

In the English curriculum there’s a video of how a postcode and wealth are the biggest predictors of academic success.

Those behaviours of you being called a fucker, by a 5 year old child, is most concerning because what are the likely outcomes for a child who has no respect for themselves and others? What is the king time mental, emotional and physical wear and tear over the years on you and other teachers?

The physical violence towards high school teachers was really bad when I was there and now it is off the charts. Once they get bigger they are tough to manage. I had a critical incident. As I was a Relief Teacher they didn’t want me to see what they usually did. The out come was very poor.

I feel for you. I really do.

There’s a reason this prep class is on their third teacher so far this year. There’s 24 kids in the whole class, and seven of them have high support needs whether behavioural or academic, or both.

The Qld P&C Association don’t have strict rules about healthy foods, but they do have Guidelines. Foods are grouped into red, amber, and green categories. You’re only supposed to have one “red food” day per semester, but a lot of tuck shops have red foods permanently on their menu. Processed food is cheap. Research shows schools with breakfast clubs have better social and academic outcomes than those who don’t. My school does have a breakfast club. Many schools lack volunteers and/or funds to run such a club.

My school is in a rough area where many parents are disadvantaged in some way: culturally, socioeconomically, intergenerational trauma, cost of living, trauma around accessing healthcare etc. And these areas overlap. The staff there are the reason I keep going back, as well as the many absolutely darling students I adore. I’ve learned so much from that school.

SCIENCE said:

ms spock said:

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work.

can’t devices be used to deliver work and difficulty

agree that progression without progress is problematic

I was in a class as a Prac Teacher, where there was an exam was on. Once their teacher realised that none of them were writing on their exam papers. He put the slides up on the White Board for them to copy the information down. He asked me to sit next to students and encourage them to write down the answers in their own words. I asked one of the students to write down the answers and she said that there’s no point she was still going to the next year level anyway.

Teachers are on contracts, if your students fail you don’t get another contract. So there’s this whole process of cheating that goes on for lower level students.

I did laugh with one kid yesterday, he kept singing a Fall Out Boy song.

https://youtu.be/LkIWmsP3c_s

Don’t get me wrong, I was silly with the kids yesterday too. Face Eating Monster, Stinky Broom, Grab the Pencil… all silly games to break up the sternness.

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready.

This.

Even teachers are outsourcing reading a book in person to YouTube. In some cases, it’s really cool, eg Chris Hadfield reading a book from aboard the ISS. Generally speaking though, I’d much prefer a teacher reading a book to the kids.

The relationships with carers are crucial. If a student doesn’t have this. You have to model and build a relationship with them. You can never catch them up unless they get one on one attention. Canada and Finland do this if necessary.

Even the teacher sitting up reading the school English book, whilst students sit in their seats, reading the same school English book is at least modelling the reading behaviours. If the students have never seen their parents/carers reading, then they need to learn those reading behaviours.

Same with being polite. If a student have never been treated with respect or seen other people being polite, then you have to explicitly teach, outline, model, demonstrate, explain, break down, explain again and reinforce the polite behaviours. When you have 30 students in a class with various levels of developmental delays and lack of parenting. You are pretty screwed as a teacher.

Most High School teachers will have 180 students. How do you address their socioemotional needs and actually teach them and address their behaviours?

Tau.Neutrino said:

ms spock said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

Has it got a name this device social withdrawal?

It is seen as an addiction.

It is referred to as problematic smartphone use (PMPU), smartphone dependence, or screen/device addiction

Mobile phone withdrawal is called nomophobia (no-mobile-phone-phobia).

I don’t know what the clinical term/s used at this time. I don’t know if it has made it into the DSM.

.

SCIENCE said:

ms spock said:

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work.

can’t devices be used to deliver work and difficulty

Belgium has decided no. They are taking device use out of their curriculum.

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Interacting with educational apps on devices from the age of 3 or so might be of benefit IMO as long as it wasn’t for longer than a couple of ours a day. If wager that if all preps had some understanding of reading at the start of formal schooling it would make adapting to the classroom environment easier for even the most difficult kids. Obviously this all depends on parents actually taking the care to help this happen as devised.

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

It has very poor outcomes.

Apparently someone decided it was bad for children’s self esteem to be held back.

ms spock said:

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

It has very poor outcomes.

Apparently someone decided it was bad for children’s self esteem to be held back.

Social development. Better to keep them with their peers. Otherwise you could have 10 year olds still in prep.

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

ms spock said:

Steve Job’s kids didn’t have iPads. Silicon Valley doesn’t allow their children to have access to devices, delaying until they are sixteen, and removing and locking up mobiles overnight. China has legislated one hour per day per kid. Belgium integrated computers into the curriculum and are now rolling that right back. They know the impact on developing brains that technology has.

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Parents reading books themselves and reading to the children has a huge impact on literacy skills. The relationship and connection between the parent and the child helps the child to be school ready. If the child is unparented the teachers spend so much time managing behaviours.

Students leave primary school unable read has been a significant issue. In Year 8 you can have two students reading and writing at a Grade 2 level. Some at Grade 4 and some at Grade 6. It makes lesson preparation really challenging. Then you have cater to students who are at an Year 8, Individual Learning Programs, students who are neurodivergent, students with other challenges.
So your lesson plans have to cater to 8-9 levels of learning. If a student has a melt down then all that work doesn’t get done.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work. They just want to play on their devices.

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

Special needs children had their own separate class
I’m not sure if this was a good idea or not

It depends on the school, the teacher and the student and what learning challenges they have.

I am for what my brother went to a Special School because they had specialists like speech therapists and physiotherapists. Guess what gets cuts first in a mainstream school?

If one on one support is guaranteed, if required, like in Finland, then integrated can work. We don’t get that in Australia. I got one class with three students who were one on one. It wasn’t fair to anyone in that situation. Everyone was suffering. And it breeds resentment, bigotry and prejudices in students who don’t get to learn by anything because a teacher is dealing with one on one.

The stigma associated with being in one of special classes is horrible. I had a class tell me that they were the dumbest class in the school. And they were considered the least academically able class in the school. The bullying towards them was so sad. Even in the staff room the teachers laughed about them. They are being tortured in the education system. What other teachers and students said to them. I ended up weeping in a bunch of bushes/trees. I went to the doctors to get a medical certificate to get out of that contract.

Sadly this school is held up as a school that is successfully inclusive.

And the teachers who care, they suffer burnout and vicarious trauma.

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

roughbarked said:

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

It has very poor outcomes.

Apparently someone decided it was bad for children’s self esteem to be held back.

Social development. Better to keep them with their peers. Otherwise you could have 10 year olds still in prep.

uh so should students meet requirements before progressing or should students progress and there be no requirements

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

ms spock said:

Devices are not good for developing brains. It sets up expectations that everything has to be entertaining. You don’t have to put in effort when it is hard.

Australia has a terrible policy that you will go up a grade despite not handing in work or passing exams. The students know there’s no consequences so they don’t do the work.

can’t devices be used to deliver work and difficulty

agree that progression without progress is problematic

Welllll… devices in education are sometimes required as part of reasonable adjustments for students otherwise disadvantaged by a disability. Obviously my context is autism, and something like an AAC device is invaluable as a communication tool. iPads to present ideas in kids with fine motor issues is easier for everyone when it comes to assessments: are you assessing the idea, or their ability to handwrite it?

Technology has its place for sure. I don’t have an issue with kids using an app like Scratch Junior or mini robots like Bee Bots for basic coding skills.

Some students wouldn’t be able to communicate if they didn’t have computer access. “Reasonable accommodation” is rightly required by the Disability Discrimination Act.

roughbarked said:

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

We used to have to repeat the class if you weren’t up to scratch.

apparently that also degrades educational attainment so there needs to be a more personalised/ targeted approach

I recall a very big boy being sent back. to 3rd class because he wasn’t achieving whatever level was expected of him. He came in to the classroom crying. He felt humiliated. Luckily our 3rd class teacher was very good and she remained a friend of mine up until she passed away in hher nineties.

Wow! That is one hell of a third grade teacher.

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

It has very poor outcomes.

Apparently someone decided it was bad for children’s self esteem to be held back.

Social development. Better to keep them with their peers. Otherwise you could have 10 year olds still in prep.

uh so should students meet requirements before progressing or should students progress and there be no requirements

This isn’t opinion, it’s policy.

Yesterday I got Mini Me’s first semester report card (she’s doing so well) but I was thinking about the reports for the kids I’ve come across. There are cases where the student is unable to be assessed for various reasons, and will end up with N for “insufficient evidence to make a judgement”. That might be due to cognitive disabilities, or the kid is frequently absent, or something else.

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Yesterday was hard. There’s lots of things I can’t say here. Youse just hear the bits I can say, so if you think that’s bad, imagine what really happens! Just a reminder, I was in prep yesterday. These are five year olds. Another kid told me I should be fired, because I had the audacity to tell him to put his lunchbox away after lunchtime. I was actually kind of impressed he knew what “fired” meant in context.

I do feel concerned about your safety.

You are having a tremendous amount of lockdowns.

Three this term. Two of them were the same kid.

Proper supports should be put in place. For the sake of that poor kid, for all the other students and the teachers wellbeing.

Arts said:

I mean, having tech illiterate students/humans is also not ideal. In a world where technology will more than likely form some part of their employment, even the use of AI, it’s wiser to have students that have been exposed to and are fairly proficient at tech.

A while ago I read some comments from parents that talked about the loss of skills, increase in lethargy, the way kids dont go outside to play anymore, and the way the device zombifies their kids… they were talking about TV watching… and yet we still have a (relatively) functional society, sure it’s a changed society, but people do find employment in these industries as well.

We cannot put a historical lens on the future, the focus should be how can we use this device/tech for benefit.

Fair point.

Divine Angel said:

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

I do feel concerned about your safety.

You are having a tremendous amount of lockdowns.

Three this term. Two of them were the same kid.

I’ve been in prep. Prep is somewhat isolated from the rest of the school, but yesterday I happened to be wandering around with a kid when the lockdown song started playing. The kids causing them are in year three, so I’m much more concerned for my friend who is the TA for that grade. Yesterday’s lockdown, she had a front row seat. (She’s OK.)

This is not a safe workplace or a nurturing learning environment.

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

Social development. Better to keep them with their peers. Otherwise you could have 10 year olds still in prep.

uh so should students meet requirements before progressing or should students progress and there be no requirements

This isn’t opinion, it’s policy.

Yesterday I got Mini Me’s first semester report card (she’s doing so well) but I was thinking about the reports for the kids I’ve come across. There are cases where the student is unable to be assessed for various reasons, and will end up with N for “insufficient evidence to make a judgement”. That might be due to cognitive disabilities, or the kid is frequently absent, or something else.

yeah we agree it’sn’t opinion but we’re not talking about policy, we’re talking about evidence

even if people think failing would be cool, or systems insist that barreling on is unstoppable, all we’re asking is, whether the evidence / data / research shows that it’s better for students to meet requirements before progressing, or that it’s better to to progress with no requirements

Divine Angel said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

Tech awareness going beyond how to use it and having skills to determine what tech is detrimental to us.

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

The games are set up to be addictive. I went to a interactive conference. They know what they are dying and it makes them a lot of money. It’s why Silicon Valley don’t let their young people have access unsupervised. China has put legislation in place for one hour per child.

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

uh so should students meet requirements before progressing or should students progress and there be no requirements

This isn’t opinion, it’s policy.

Yesterday I got Mini Me’s first semester report card (she’s doing so well) but I was thinking about the reports for the kids I’ve come across. There are cases where the student is unable to be assessed for various reasons, and will end up with N for “insufficient evidence to make a judgement”. That might be due to cognitive disabilities, or the kid is frequently absent, or something else.

yeah we agree it’sn’t opinion but we’re not talking about policy, we’re talking about evidence

even if people think failing would be cool, or systems insist that barreling on is unstoppable, all we’re asking is, whether the evidence / data / research shows that it’s better for students to meet requirements before progressing, or that it’s better to to progress with no requirements

This is a very quick rabbit hole while I’m pondering other things.
The primary research question investigated is whether the retained children actually did better than they would have done, had they been socially promoted. Other issues explored include non-random selection of the kindergarten retention policy, and the role of unobserved child, family, and school characteristics in selection into the retention treatment.
This paper models the retention treatment as a binary choice with sample selection. This retention model explicitly takes into account the non-random selection of children into different types of schools, i.e., retention vs. non-retention schools. The retention treatment dummy then shows up in the test score equation as an endogenous regressor with a correlated random coefficient, which captures the heterogeneity of treatment effects. A control function estimator is derived and applied to the resulting double-hurdle treatment model. As a comparison, a nearest-neighbor matching analysis is also conducted. Both the parametric control function approach and the non-parametric matching method are implemented under a variety of assumptions regarding selection into retention schools.
Findings from this study show that repeating kindergarten has positive effects on the retained children’s later academic performance; i.e., the retained children would do worse in terms of the first- and third-grade test scores, were they socially promoted. Our results also suggest that these effects diminish over time. For example, while the positive effect on the retainees’ math test scores is still significant up to third grade, the effect on the reading test scores is not.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.euroecorev.2009.06.004

This website says no for psychological reasons
https://grattan.edu.au/news/grade-repetition-there-are-better-ways-to-move-kids-forward-than-by-holding-them-back/#:~:text=But%2C%20on%20average%2C%20repetition%20is,the%20exception%20or%20the%20rule.

This website says no, because grade retention does not boost academic performance
https://www.nifdi.org/resources/hempenstall-blog/807-grade-retention-why-not.html

This website says no because the student is more likely to drop out of school earlier than peers (amongst other reasons)
https://evidenceforlearning.org.au/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/repeating-a-year

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

Arts said:

sure, there are new jobs being created all the time… but still the ability to touch interactive controls (drone operators – armed forces, site surveying, photographers) sitting and watching and analysing.. being able to type – well yeah this is probably one of those skills that will be eventually lost, but for the moment it’s still important

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

Teachers have to do training on how to manage violent parents.

Teachers have to do training on how to de-escalate and manage violence in their classrooms.

Teachers attend workshops on how to manage mentally unwell parents.

In Queensland they released a spreadsheet of schools by violent incidents. I knew it was widespread and pervasive. The sheer quantity of assaults was sobering. Especially given that many teachers don’t report being physically assaulted because nothing happens.

When someone tells you what was the last straw of why they quit, it will usually be an act of violence or there was an act of violence that wasn’t dealt with adequately.

It is not just teachers. There’s the impact on students as well. Lost learning opportunities, having to witness violence in their classrooms and teachers constantly distracted from teaching because they have to engage in behaviour management.

It will be very interesting to see how it pans out. I don’t know what research is being done, but I have heard that mobile bans during the day have had a noticeable improvement in behaviours.

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Parenting is hard. I get that parents use all sorts of methods to self-medicate and distract, including endless scrolling on their phones. Social skills in children, particularly young children, are non-existent, which leads to behavioural issues. When I tell your kid to pack up their mess, they shouldn’t call me a fucker because I’ve told them to do something they don’t want to do (happened yesterday).

I get that parents with challenges will self medicate to manage. And early childhood education, provided where parents can be with their children with educators and other parents, could be one way of providing support. With healthy breakfasts, lunches and dinners provided. This could assist with intergovernmental social change.

In the English curriculum there’s a video of how a postcode and wealth are the biggest predictors of academic success.

Those behaviours of you being called a fucker, by a 5 year old child, is most concerning because what are the likely outcomes for a child who has no respect for themselves and others? What is the king time mental, emotional and physical wear and tear over the years on you and other teachers?

The physical violence towards high school teachers was really bad when I was there and now it is off the charts. Once they get bigger they are tough to manage. I had a critical incident. As I was a Relief Teacher they didn’t want me to see what they usually did. The out come was very poor.

I feel for you. I really do.

There’s a reason this prep class is on their third teacher so far this year. There’s 24 kids in the whole class, and seven of them have high support needs whether behavioural or academic, or both.

The Qld P&C Association don’t have strict rules about healthy foods, but they do have Guidelines. Foods are grouped into red, amber, and green categories. You’re only supposed to have one “red food” day per semester, but a lot of tuck shops have red foods permanently on their menu. Processed food is cheap. Research shows schools with breakfast clubs have better social and academic outcomes than those who don’t. My school does have a breakfast club. Many schools lack volunteers and/or funds to run such a club.

My school is in a rough area where many parents are disadvantaged in some way: culturally, socioeconomically, intergenerational trauma, cost of living, trauma around accessing healthcare etc. And these areas overlap. The staff there are the reason I keep going back, as well as the many absolutely darling students I adore. I’ve learned so much from that school.

They are lucky to have you.

ms spock said:

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

Teachers have to do training on how to manage violent parents.

Teachers have to do training on how to de-escalate and manage violence in their classrooms.

Teachers attend workshops on how to manage mentally unwell parents.

In Queensland they released a spreadsheet of schools by violent incidents. I knew it was widespread and pervasive. The sheer quantity of assaults was sobering. Especially given that many teachers don’t report being physically assaulted because nothing happens.

When someone tells you what was the last straw of why they quit, it will usually be an act of violence or there was an act of violence that wasn’t dealt with adequately.

It is not just teachers. There’s the impact on students as well. Lost learning opportunities, having to witness violence in their classrooms and teachers constantly distracted from teaching because they have to engage in behaviour management.

It will be very interesting to see how it pans out. I don’t know what research is being done, but I have heard that mobile bans during the day have had a noticeable improvement in behaviours.

Well we had the fear of the cane and the strap to keep us in line, worked a treat.

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

I get that parents with challenges will self medicate to manage. And early childhood education, provided where parents can be with their children with educators and other parents, could be one way of providing support. With healthy breakfasts, lunches and dinners provided. This could assist with intergovernmental social change.

In the English curriculum there’s a video of how a postcode and wealth are the biggest predictors of academic success.

Those behaviours of you being called a fucker, by a 5 year old child, is most concerning because what are the likely outcomes for a child who has no respect for themselves and others? What is the king time mental, emotional and physical wear and tear over the years on you and other teachers?

The physical violence towards high school teachers was really bad when I was there and now it is off the charts. Once they get bigger they are tough to manage. I had a critical incident. As I was a Relief Teacher they didn’t want me to see what they usually did. The out come was very poor.

I feel for you. I really do.

There’s a reason this prep class is on their third teacher so far this year. There’s 24 kids in the whole class, and seven of them have high support needs whether behavioural or academic, or both.

The Qld P&C Association don’t have strict rules about healthy foods, but they do have Guidelines. Foods are grouped into red, amber, and green categories. You’re only supposed to have one “red food” day per semester, but a lot of tuck shops have red foods permanently on their menu. Processed food is cheap. Research shows schools with breakfast clubs have better social and academic outcomes than those who don’t. My school does have a breakfast club. Many schools lack volunteers and/or funds to run such a club.

My school is in a rough area where many parents are disadvantaged in some way: culturally, socioeconomically, intergenerational trauma, cost of living, trauma around accessing healthcare etc. And these areas overlap. The staff there are the reason I keep going back, as well as the many absolutely darling students I adore. I’ve learned so much from that school.

They are lucky to have you.

They know it lol, that’s why I get a ton of support when an incident happens. So many relief teachers/TAs do one day there and don’t come back.

Divine Angel said:

I did laugh with one kid yesterday, he kept singing a Fall Out Boy song.

https://youtu.be/LkIWmsP3c_s

Don’t get me wrong, I was silly with the kids yesterday too. Face Eating Monster, Stinky Broom, Grab the Pencil… all silly games to break up the sternness.

🍀😁🍀

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

This isn’t opinion, it’s policy.

Yesterday I got Mini Me’s first semester report card (she’s doing so well) but I was thinking about the reports for the kids I’ve come across. There are cases where the student is unable to be assessed for various reasons, and will end up with N for “insufficient evidence to make a judgement”. That might be due to cognitive disabilities, or the kid is frequently absent, or something else.

yeah we agree it’sn’t opinion but we’re not talking about policy, we’re talking about evidence

even if people think failing would be cool, or systems insist that barreling on is unstoppable, all we’re asking is, whether the evidence / data / research shows that it’s better for students to meet requirements before progressing, or that it’s better to to progress with no requirements

This is a very quick rabbit hole while I’m pondering other things.
The primary research question investigated is whether the retained children actually did better than they would have done, had they been socially promoted. Other issues explored include non-random selection of the kindergarten retention policy, and the role of unobserved child, family, and school characteristics in selection into the retention treatment.
This paper models the retention treatment as a binary choice with sample selection. This retention model explicitly takes into account the non-random selection of children into different types of schools, i.e., retention vs. non-retention schools. The retention treatment dummy then shows up in the test score equation as an endogenous regressor with a correlated random coefficient, which captures the heterogeneity of treatment effects. A control function estimator is derived and applied to the resulting double-hurdle treatment model. As a comparison, a nearest-neighbor matching analysis is also conducted. Both the parametric control function approach and the non-parametric matching method are implemented under a variety of assumptions regarding selection into retention schools.
Findings from this study show that repeating kindergarten has positive effects on the retained children’s later academic performance; i.e., the retained children would do worse in terms of the first- and third-grade test scores, were they socially promoted. Our results also suggest that these effects diminish over time. For example, while the positive effect on the retainees’ math test scores is still significant up to third grade, the effect on the reading test scores is not.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.euroecorev.2009.06.004

This website says no for psychological reasons
https://grattan.edu.au/news/grade-repetition-there-are-better-ways-to-move-kids-forward-than-by-holding-them-back/#:~:text=But%2C%20on%20average%2C%20repetition%20is,the%20exception%20or%20the%20rule.

This website says no, because grade retention does not boost academic performance
https://www.nifdi.org/resources/hempenstall-blog/807-grade-retention-why-not.html

This website says no because the student is more likely to drop out of school earlier than peers (amongst other reasons)
https://evidenceforlearning.org.au/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/repeating-a-year

thanks, fits with our understanding of the evidence previously, which ultimately indicates that age/year/grade is a pretty bad way to do things

another side of it which would be pretty difficult to get evidence for would be, does progressing or not progressing a student, have benefits or harms to the other students in their cohort

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

yeah we agree it’sn’t opinion but we’re not talking about policy, we’re talking about evidence

even if people think failing would be cool, or systems insist that barreling on is unstoppable, all we’re asking is, whether the evidence / data / research shows that it’s better for students to meet requirements before progressing, or that it’s better to to progress with no requirements

This is a very quick rabbit hole while I’m pondering other things.
The primary research question investigated is whether the retained children actually did better than they would have done, had they been socially promoted. Other issues explored include non-random selection of the kindergarten retention policy, and the role of unobserved child, family, and school characteristics in selection into the retention treatment.
This paper models the retention treatment as a binary choice with sample selection. This retention model explicitly takes into account the non-random selection of children into different types of schools, i.e., retention vs. non-retention schools. The retention treatment dummy then shows up in the test score equation as an endogenous regressor with a correlated random coefficient, which captures the heterogeneity of treatment effects. A control function estimator is derived and applied to the resulting double-hurdle treatment model. As a comparison, a nearest-neighbor matching analysis is also conducted. Both the parametric control function approach and the non-parametric matching method are implemented under a variety of assumptions regarding selection into retention schools.
Findings from this study show that repeating kindergarten has positive effects on the retained children’s later academic performance; i.e., the retained children would do worse in terms of the first- and third-grade test scores, were they socially promoted. Our results also suggest that these effects diminish over time. For example, while the positive effect on the retainees’ math test scores is still significant up to third grade, the effect on the reading test scores is not.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.euroecorev.2009.06.004

This website says no for psychological reasons
https://grattan.edu.au/news/grade-repetition-there-are-better-ways-to-move-kids-forward-than-by-holding-them-back/#:~:text=But%2C%20on%20average%2C%20repetition%20is,the%20exception%20or%20the%20rule.

This website says no, because grade retention does not boost academic performance
https://www.nifdi.org/resources/hempenstall-blog/807-grade-retention-why-not.html

This website says no because the student is more likely to drop out of school earlier than peers (amongst other reasons)
https://evidenceforlearning.org.au/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/repeating-a-year

thanks, fits with our understanding of the evidence previously, which ultimately indicates that age/year/grade is a pretty bad way to do things

another side of it which would be pretty difficult to get evidence for would be, does progressing or not progressing a student, have benefits or harms to the other students in their cohort

The other side of it is the age when starting school. In prep/kindy you’ve got four year olds in with kids who are almost six. There’s a vast difference in emotional, social, and cognitive development between four and six in neurotypical kids, never mind ASD/ADHD/FASD etc kids.

There are definitely kids who do not benefit from mainstream schooling. There are two special schools (cognitive disabilities) for primary kids locally, but catchment for my school means at least half an hour travel time each way; many parents and carers don’t have that time to spare in their day. Two other schools, which are mostly for behavioural students (mostly caused by trauma, ASD/ADHD etc), start at grade 5 but are a lot closer.

ms spock said:

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

Teachers have to do training on how to manage violent parents.

Teachers have to do training on how to de-escalate and manage violence in their classrooms.

Teachers attend workshops on how to manage mentally unwell parents.

In Queensland they released a spreadsheet of schools by violent incidents. I knew it was widespread and pervasive. The sheer quantity of assaults was sobering. Especially given that many teachers don’t report being physically assaulted because nothing happens.

When someone tells you what was the last straw of why they quit, it will usually be an act of violence or there was an act of violence that wasn’t dealt with adequately.

It is not just teachers. There’s the impact on students as well. Lost learning opportunities, having to witness violence in their classrooms and teachers constantly distracted from teaching because they have to engage in behaviour management.

It will be very interesting to see how it pans out. I don’t know what research is being done, but I have heard that mobile bans during the day have had a noticeable improvement in behaviours.

Seems some students take things too personally, then disconnect and generate unnecessary behaviour.

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

SCIENCE said:

uh so should students meet requirements before progressing or should students progress and there be no requirements

This isn’t opinion, it’s policy.

Yesterday I got Mini Me’s first semester report card (she’s doing so well) but I was thinking about the reports for the kids I’ve come across. There are cases where the student is unable to be assessed for various reasons, and will end up with N for “insufficient evidence to make a judgement”. That might be due to cognitive disabilities, or the kid is frequently absent, or something else.

yeah we agree it’sn’t opinion but we’re not talking about policy, we’re talking about evidence

even if people think failing would be cool, or systems insist that barreling on is unstoppable, all we’re asking is, whether the evidence / data / research shows that it’s better for students to meet requirements before progressing, or that it’s better to to progress with no requirements

What is happening is evidence is being manufactured by teachers to get students over the line. I kept being asked to get things written in a particular student’s handwriting.

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

Cymek said:

Personally I think the betting apps are an example of detrimental tech as they are designed from the ground up to fed an addiction.

Starts well before adulthood with blind boxes containing physical toys, and loot boxes in games.

The games are set up to be addictive. I went to a interactive conference. They know what they are dying and it makes them a lot of money. It’s why Silicon Valley don’t let their young people have access unsupervised. China has put legislation in place for one hour per child.

dying = doing

Divine Angel said:

ms spock said:

Divine Angel said:

There’s a reason this prep class is on their third teacher so far this year. There’s 24 kids in the whole class, and seven of them have high support needs whether behavioural or academic, or both.

The Qld P&C Association don’t have strict rules about healthy foods, but they do have Guidelines. Foods are grouped into red, amber, and green categories. You’re only supposed to have one “red food” day per semester, but a lot of tuck shops have red foods permanently on their menu. Processed food is cheap. Research shows schools with breakfast clubs have better social and academic outcomes than those who don’t. My school does have a breakfast club. Many schools lack volunteers and/or funds to run such a club.

My school is in a rough area where many parents are disadvantaged in some way: culturally, socioeconomically, intergenerational trauma, cost of living, trauma around accessing healthcare etc. And these areas overlap. The staff there are the reason I keep going back, as well as the many absolutely darling students I adore. I’ve learned so much from that school.

They are lucky to have you.

They know it lol, that’s why I get a ton of support when an incident happens. So many relief teachers/TAs do one day there and don’t come back.

It’s so good that you are getting a ton of support and that they appreciate your contributions.

ms spock said:

Arts said:

SCIENCE said:

so why are these skills conflated with dependency on devices for emotional stability and behavioural management then, seems the different aspects are quite different and separable

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

Peak Warming Man said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

Teachers have to do training on how to manage violent parents.

Teachers have to do training on how to de-escalate and manage violence in their classrooms.

Teachers attend workshops on how to manage mentally unwell parents.

In Queensland they released a spreadsheet of schools by violent incidents. I knew it was widespread and pervasive. The sheer quantity of assaults was sobering. Especially given that many teachers don’t report being physically assaulted because nothing happens.

When someone tells you what was the last straw of why they quit, it will usually be an act of violence or there was an act of violence that wasn’t dealt with adequately.

It is not just teachers. There’s the impact on students as well. Lost learning opportunities, having to witness violence in their classrooms and teachers constantly distracted from teaching because they have to engage in behaviour management.

It will be very interesting to see how it pans out. I don’t know what research is being done, but I have heard that mobile bans during the day have had a noticeable improvement in behaviours.

Well we had the fear of the cane and the strap to keep us in line, worked a treat.

We won’t mention your dominatrix fetish.

Arts said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

well I didn’t say they were, just pointing out that the whinging against new technology has been around for a super long time, and yet, we survive and adapt. life is not all doom and fucking gloom, just because things aren’t what they were like in the old days…

ffs we have had bad parenting, addiction issues, violence, forever… none of it is a new phenomenon just because it’s presenting with a different tool

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

ms spock said:

Arts said:

ms spock said:

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

Closer to societal collapse now

Cymek said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

Closer to societal collapse now

we mean there must be some kind of quantitative way to measure these things

ms spock said:

Arts said:

ms spock said:

The new technologies has created a disconnect of seeing others as not worthy of respect.

Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

dv said:

The eyes have it.

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

The eyes have it.

And it is a fine-grained pasta.

Arts said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

Arts said:

Arts said:

ms spock said:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

I’ve always agreed on this issue. It was already a problem when I went through school.

roughbarked said:

Arts said:

Arts said:

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

I’ve always agreed on this issue. It was already a problem when I went through school.

As a school student saturated with information I’d not be feeling overly hopeful about my future.
These current generations are going to have a much harder time in most aspects of life than us.

Arts said:

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

Coming at this through the lens of neurodiversity, we have a society built for neurotypical people. Societal norms where people are filed through The System: School ➡️ Uni (or straight to work) ➡️ get married ➡️ have kids (plural) ➡️ work ➡️ work ➡️ work ➡️ retire for five minutes ➡️ die.

The modules for the past four weeks have been about transitions. Not just transitions through the school day from maths to English to PE, but transitions to high school, then out to the work force (which admittedly, I skimmed over because the work one is not relevant to my assignment or context right now). It appears to be the same machine, churning out people to fit into The World, just doing it by a different path.

Way before I even contemplated doing this course, I read something along the lines of, “autistic people have always been here, look how we’ve been failing them for so long”.

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

Arts said:

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

I’ve always agreed on this issue. It was already a problem when I went through school.

As a school student saturated with information I’d not be feeling overly hopeful about my future.
These current generations are going to have a much harder time in most aspects of life than us.

We’re you hopeful as a teenager?

Divine Angel said:

Arts said:

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

Coming at this through the lens of neurodiversity, we have a society built for neurotypical people. Societal norms where people are filed through The System: School ➡️ Uni (or straight to work) ➡️ get married ➡️ have kids (plural) ➡️ work ➡️ work ➡️ work ➡️ retire for five minutes ➡️ die.

The modules for the past four weeks have been about transitions. Not just transitions through the school day from maths to English to PE, but transitions to high school, then out to the work force (which admittedly, I skimmed over because the work one is not relevant to my assignment or context right now). It appears to be the same machine, churning out people to fit into The World, just doing it by a different path.

Way before I even contemplated doing this course, I read something along the lines of, “autistic people have always been here, look how we’ve been failing them for so long”.

well there’s still a lot of work to be done and someone’s got to do it

SCIENCE said:

Divine Angel said:

Arts said:

I am also not disagreeing that the level of violence against teachers is increasing. You could not pay me enough money to ever return to high school teaching, I know what it’s like, I spent many years there and have friends still there, at all levels of education. I don’t necessarily put it all down to the increased use of personal devices, though I agree that it is a likely contributing factor.
What I am seeing is increased disenfranchisement, increased stresses on parents and a stubborn sameness in a system that refuses to adjust to social shift. To me that’s where the issues lay, in historical policy and practices that no longer work given the social attitude adjustments.
School, as we have it in Australia, was formed to create minions to work in the 9-5 office space.. rows of desks, sit and listen, file out to lunch, reach KPI’s – all do the same, learn the same, be the same. This is not the model that most children see anymore in adults, their parents, the media. Putting aside the individual family struggle, disenfranchisement, poverty, mental health issues that affect children, we do not even have a society that values the 9-5 office work for the man system anymore. Look anywhere on the platforms that children are watching – it’s all about flexible hours, mental health days, varied work environments… so when is the school system going to catch up to that? No wonder kids are confused and struggling to sit for six hours a day, then lashing out… what they are told to experience and learn is not aligning with what they are seeing happen in the adult world. It’s not what people place value on anymore (and I have to agree with them). Yet we still force children into a system that refused to budge.
Do we have kids with issues? sure, do we have more kids with issues? maybe, but if we, as the adult world who make the rules, don’t turn the critical lens on ourselves and notice that maybe we can change the outcome by changing what we do systemically, rather than always focusing on everything else being the problem (it’s the children who are wrong, it’s the parents, it’s the devices) then we are doing everyone an injustice.

Coming at this through the lens of neurodiversity, we have a society built for neurotypical people. Societal norms where people are filed through The System: School ➡️ Uni (or straight to work) ➡️ get married ➡️ have kids (plural) ➡️ work ➡️ work ➡️ work ➡️ retire for five minutes ➡️ die.

The modules for the past four weeks have been about transitions. Not just transitions through the school day from maths to English to PE, but transitions to high school, then out to the work force (which admittedly, I skimmed over because the work one is not relevant to my assignment or context right now). It appears to be the same machine, churning out people to fit into The World, just doing it by a different path.

Way before I even contemplated doing this course, I read something along the lines of, “autistic people have always been here, look how we’ve been failing them for so long”.

well there’s still a lot of work to be done and someone’s got to do it

Just throw money at it, it’ll fix itself!

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

roughbarked said:

I’ve always agreed on this issue. It was already a problem when I went through school.

As a school student saturated with information I’d not be feeling overly hopeful about my future.
These current generations are going to have a much harder time in most aspects of life than us.

We’re you hopeful as a teenager?

Mostly I think.
No social media existed and we were mostly ignored to have our own fun.
We would go out Friday night and not return home until Sunday night.
We had no clue were we would end up on the weekend

Cymek said:

We would go out Friday night and not return home until Sunday night.
We had no clue were we would end up on the weekend

You and I had very different weekends lol

Cymek said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

Closer to societal collapse now

I respectfully disagree Cymek.

I think with people like DA, Arts, and Mrs V on the job. With enough funding strategically placed that we could turn this around in a generation.

Ending hunger would change educational outcomes significantly.

I am fascinated to see how other people’s brains work and what I learn in a discussion like this. Look at the depth and breadth of this conversation (with the hilarious comments on the middle).

We are only one group of people, imagine if we got other folks galvanised

I have teacher friends (who I worry about) who live and breathe their students. That’s their whole lives.

I think facing and defining the problems is important. And learning nuances.

There’s a lot of hope to be had. Look at DA in lockdowns in her school whilst bestowing her TLC and knowledge to those little people. And you know Arts is not going to let a student through who is not up to standard. And she’ll get them there.

I linger in the background and do a few things from time to time.

ms spock said:

Cymek said:

ms spock said:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

Closer to societal collapse now

I respectfully disagree Cymek.

I think with people like DA, Arts, and Mrs V on the job. With enough funding strategically placed that we could turn this around in a generation.

Ending hunger would change educational outcomes significantly.

I am fascinated to see how other people’s brains work and what I learn in a discussion like this. Look at the depth and breadth of this conversation (with the hilarious comments on the middle).

We are only one group of people, imagine if we got other folks galvanised

I have teacher friends (who I worry about) who live and breathe their students. That’s their whole lives.

I think facing and defining the problems is important. And learning nuances.

There’s a lot of hope to be had. Look at DA in lockdowns in her school whilst bestowing her TLC and knowledge to those little people. And you know Arts is not going to let a student through who is not up to standard. And she’ll get them there.

I linger in the background and do a few things from time to time.

Mrs V was an educator? So was I, with the preschoolers. Twenty three years of educating the little snots, and advocating for better services. Some wild times, with children and their parents.

Arts said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

I worked with students at risk. It’s what lead me into working with juveniles in detention and to my current career. I saw it all – even 25 years ago.

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I know it is absolutely untrue that you didn’t witness violence.

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

There was no question to me, that you didn’t witness violence. That wasn’t what I was commenting on.

I didn’t say that you didn’t witness any violence.

I wrote that:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

As violence towards to teachers has almost quadrupled in the last three years.

One of the schools I was at, registered over 1,500 physical acts of violence towards teachers. This was well before Covid.

ms spock said:

Arts said:

ms spock said:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

Violence against state school teachers and staff nearly quadruples in three years, new data shows

Link

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I know it is absolutely untrue that you didn’t witness violence.

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

There was no question to me, that you didn’t witness violence. That wasn’t what I was commenting on.

I didn’t say that you didn’t witness any violence.

I wrote that:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

As violence towards to teachers has almost quadrupled in the last three years.

One of the schools I was at, registered over 1,500 physical acts of violence towards teachers. This was well before Covid.

I mean you are moving the goal posts.. in the post I initially responded to you literally said “ Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?”

Then you qualified after I corrected to ‘current levels’ in the subsequent post.

But this is a silly thing to keep back and forthing about. And likely an artefact of this written and time delayed form of communication . The discussion is about a topic that we actually both agree on and the well being of educators needs as many supporters as possible. We can look at it from different angles, but are advocating for the same thing.

Arts said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I know it is absolutely untrue that you didn’t witness violence.

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

There was no question to me, that you didn’t witness violence. That wasn’t what I was commenting on.

I didn’t say that you didn’t witness any violence.

I wrote that:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

As violence towards to teachers has almost quadrupled in the last three years.

One of the schools I was at, registered over 1,500 physical acts of violence towards teachers. This was well before Covid.

I mean you are moving the goal posts.. in the post I initially responded to you literally said “ Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?”

Then you qualified after I corrected to ‘current levels’ in the subsequent post.

But this is a silly thing to keep back and forthing about. And likely an artefact of this written and time delayed form of communication . The discussion is about a topic that we actually both agree on and the well being of educators needs as many supporters as possible. We can look at it from different angles, but are advocating for the same thing.

I’m not an educator but my mother, wife and daughter were/are. I’ve heard all about it and agree.

Memories of Jared, a child filled with so much violence. Parents having a violent marriage breakdown.

He was sort of assigned to me. The special needs teacher also worked with him and his family.

Jared alternately liked me and hated me.

Per the SN teacher’s behaviour plan I was doing some calming down breathing with him after he ransacked the rest area. He was engaging quite well, then he slapped me across the face and sent my glasses flying out the door onto the concrete.

As per the SN teacher’s plan I didn’t react and I walked away, started writing up that incident in the injuries book. He was so shocked that he was sitting calmly on his bed, breathing nicely. I told him good breathing, Jared, then said that he could go outside to play. As he stood up to walk away I picked up his metal framed folding bed and accidentally whacked him in the face with it. The teacher saw all this happen. She stepped in, as I wrote up the incident in the injuries book – luckily we had a 2nd book and I wrote it in that one so the 2 injuries weren’t consecutive.

We both sustained bruises to our faces.

Not long afterwards I was at Katoomba pool with my sons. I saw Jared with his older sister. When he spotted me he started walking through the water towards us. He looked so angry that I got my sons out of the water and we left the pool.

Fucking psychopath.

Arts said:

ms spock said:

Arts said:

you implied that I didn’t witness any, which is absolutely untrue.

I know it is absolutely untrue that you didn’t witness violence.

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

There was no question to me, that you didn’t witness violence. That wasn’t what I was commenting on.

I didn’t say that you didn’t witness any violence.

I wrote that:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

As violence towards to teachers has almost quadrupled in the last three years.

One of the schools I was at, registered over 1,500 physical acts of violence towards teachers. This was well before Covid.

I mean you are moving the goal posts.. in the post I initially responded to you literally said “ Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?”

Then you qualified after I corrected to ‘current levels’ in the subsequent post.

But this is a silly thing to keep back and forthing about. And likely an artefact of this written and time delayed form of communication . The discussion is about a topic that we actually both agree on and the well being of educators needs as many supporters as possible. We can look at it from different angles, but are advocating for the same thing.

Indeed we are advocating for the same thing.

kii said:

ms spock said:

Cymek said:

Closer to societal collapse now

I respectfully disagree Cymek.

I think with people like DA, Arts, and Mrs V on the job. With enough funding strategically placed that we could turn this around in a generation.

Ending hunger would change educational outcomes significantly.

I am fascinated to see how other people’s brains work and what I learn in a discussion like this. Look at the depth and breadth of this conversation (with the hilarious comments on the middle).

We are only one group of people, imagine if we got other folks galvanised

I have teacher friends (who I worry about) who live and breathe their students. That’s their whole lives.

I think facing and defining the problems is important. And learning nuances.

There’s a lot of hope to be had. Look at DA in lockdowns in her school whilst bestowing her TLC and knowledge to those little people. And you know Arts is not going to let a student through who is not up to standard. And she’ll get them there.

I linger in the background and do a few things from time to time.

Mrs V was an educator? So was I, with the preschoolers. Twenty three years of educating the little snots, and advocating for better services. Some wild times, with children and their parents.

You would have had some experiences.

roughbarked said:

Arts said:

ms spock said:

I know it is absolutely untrue that you didn’t witness violence.

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

There was no question to me, that you didn’t witness violence. That wasn’t what I was commenting on.

I didn’t say that you didn’t witness any violence.

I wrote that:

I respectfully disagree that you saw the current level of violence that teachers are experiencing now.

As violence towards to teachers has almost quadrupled in the last three years.

One of the schools I was at, registered over 1,500 physical acts of violence towards teachers. This was well before Covid.

I mean you are moving the goal posts.. in the post I initially responded to you literally said “ Teachers are experiencing broken arms, fractured skulls, concussions, death threats, harrassment, stalking and a whole range of implicit/explicit threats that I imagine you didn’t witness during your schooling career?”

Then you qualified after I corrected to ‘current levels’ in the subsequent post.

But this is a silly thing to keep back and forthing about. And likely an artefact of this written and time delayed form of communication . The discussion is about a topic that we actually both agree on and the well being of educators needs as many supporters as possible. We can look at it from different angles, but are advocating for the same thing.

I’m not an educator but my mother, wife and daughter were/are. I’ve heard all about it and agree.

So in summary
in actual fact
electronic devices replacing flesh and bones warm bodied teachers in classrooms and class settings
is the best thing for students and student learning,
because the robots can be made as strong as the engineers like,
so they won’t be destroyed by violent delinquent sociopathic students,
hence being sustainable unlike teachers being injured and killed,
electronic devices can continue to provide students with education where teachers will rapidly become extinct.