Billion dollar light rail plans unveiled
Updated 35 minutes ago

Photo: An artists impression what a light urban rail centre in Perth might look like. (State Government) Map: Perth 6000 The State Government is unveiling its billion dollar plans for a light rail network to relieve traffic congestion in Perth.

The government is proposing a 22 kilometre light rail line linking the CBD to Mirrabooka in Perth’s northern suburbs and running alongside some of the city’s busiest roads.

They include Fitzgerald Street and Alexander and Dianella Drives.

The line would also go to the QEII Medical Centre and east over the causeway to Victoria Park.

The Transport Minister Troy Buswell says it will cost more than $1 billion.

“It will give us the sort of public transport offerings that other leading global cities enjoy,” he said.

Labor’s Transport Spokesman Ken Travers says the plan is nothing more than a vote buying exercise.

“Political spin to try and convince the people of perth that the liberal party has changed its spots,” he said.

Mr Travers says if the Government was serious about solving the city’s public transport problems, it would start by ordering enough rail cars to meet existing demand.

Topics: rail-transport, government-and-politics, perth-6000

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-02/light-rail/4238388?section=business

>>Labor’s Transport Spokesman Ken Travers says the plan is nothing more than a vote buying exercise.<<

Just like the last one, where labor spent a billion dollars on a rail line as a vote buying exercise.

They should learn not to throw stones…

What do you find wrong with this Wookie?

The Mandurah rail line was dismissed as a waste of money and a great white elephant – until it was actually completed and brought into service. Now it’s so popular they need more rail cars and park & ride spaces to service the demand.

I expect an inner city tram/light rail system would me much the same. There is definitely need for it. Won’t be wasted money IMHO. You can argue over where it lies on the list of priorities, but the project itself would definitely work.

party_pants said:

What do you find wrong with this Wookie?

The Mandurah rail line was dismissed as a waste of money and a great white elephant – until it was actually completed and brought into service. Now it’s so popular they need more rail cars and park & ride spaces to service the demand.

I expect an inner city tram/light rail system would me much the same. There is definitely need for it. Won’t be wasted money IMHO. You can argue over where it lies on the list of priorities, but the project itself would definitely work.

we have to learn to live within our means

australian debt totals 1 trillion dollars

stop the spending payback the debt and many things will start sorting themselves out

why spend another 1 billion on speculation when you can save billions of dollars in interest repayments by properly servicing debt now

households abide by this principle

if they serviced their debt properly they would have MORE money to spend on public transport in the near future, not less. at present billions of dollars are being swallowed up just in repayments to banks.

Wookie our government debt is around the lowest in the developed world. You can’t use it as an excuse to not fund public infrastructure.

sorry thats not a trillion thats trillions

this is the problem

we are taking trillions of dollars in debt so we can finance the latest abd greatest coffee machine for our public officials

sometimes you have to bite the bullet and tell people

“we can’t afford this”

love tram/light rail. a great answer to inner city transport.

wookiemeister said:

we have to learn to live within our means

australian debt totals 1 trillion dollars

stop the spending payback the debt and many things will start sorting themselves out

why spend another 1 billion on speculation when you can save billions of dollars in interest repayments by properly servicing debt now

households abide by this principle

if they serviced their debt properly they would have MORE money to spend on public transport in the near future, not less. at present billions of dollars are being swallowed up just in repayments to banks.

Once again, the sum total of your ideas equal zero.

For WA, a public infrastructure investment of $1 billion is within our means. It is unrelated to household debt or private debt or any other irrelevant measure you choose to put forward. It would be an investment that would deliver more benefit than the cost of building it plus interest.

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

we have to learn to live within our means

australian debt totals 1 trillion dollars

stop the spending payback the debt and many things will start sorting themselves out

why spend another 1 billion on speculation when you can save billions of dollars in interest repayments by properly servicing debt now

households abide by this principle

if they serviced their debt properly they would have MORE money to spend on public transport in the near future, not less. at present billions of dollars are being swallowed up just in repayments to banks.

Once again, the sum total of your ideas equal zero.

For WA, a public infrastructure investment of $1 billion is within our means. It is unrelated to household debt or private debt or any other irrelevant measure you choose to put forward. It would be an investment that would deliver more benefit than the cost of building it plus interest.

the problem is that it isn’t the only debt just one of many that are going to cripple the country

stop taking loans and watch the prices for everyday things fall

reasoning

most of the stuff we buy is made elsewhere anyway. as we reduce our loan the currency gets stronger and thus buying power increases.

we’ve crippled our manufacturing and farming anyway so it won’t make much difference.

WA spent a billion on a stadium recently another big waste of money

wookiemeister said:

the problem is that it isn’t the only debt just one of many that are going to cripple the country

stop taking loans and watch the prices for everyday things fall

reasoning

most of the stuff we buy is made elsewhere anyway. as we reduce our loan the currency gets stronger and thus buying power increases.

we’ve crippled our manufacturing and farming anyway so it won’t make much difference.

WA spent a billion on a stadium recently another big waste of money

Actually, what’s hurting manufacturing, farming and tourism is the already high Aussie dollar.

The stadium has been built yet, still in the design stages. But there is an expectation that people using it will be expected to pay for a ticket, they won’t get in for free. Over time, the cost of the building the stadium will be recouped, it will generate far more income over it’s lifetime than it cost to build.

>Over time, the cost of the building the stadium will be recouped, it will generate far more income over it’s lifetime than it cost to build.

Oh, rubbish! They’re still paying off the original 1854 grandstand that was built at the MCG.

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

the problem is that it isn’t the only debt just one of many that are going to cripple the country

stop taking loans and watch the prices for everyday things fall

reasoning

most of the stuff we buy is made elsewhere anyway. as we reduce our loan the currency gets stronger and thus buying power increases.

we’ve crippled our manufacturing and farming anyway so it won’t make much difference.

WA spent a billion on a stadium recently another big waste of money

Actually, what’s hurting manufacturing, farming and tourism is the already high Aussie dollar.

The stadium has been built yet, still in the design stages. But there is an expectation that people using it will be expected to pay for a ticket, they won’t get in for free. Over time, the cost of the building the stadium will be recouped, it will generate far more income over it’s lifetime than it cost to build.

true

just look at the flavian theatre, it must have cost them a fortune to build and finally after a few years its making a mint

sibeen said:

>Over time, the cost of the building the stadium will be recouped, it will generate far more income over it’s lifetime than it cost to build.

Oh, rubbish! They’re still paying off the original 1854 grandstand that was built at the MCG.

The WA Government are paying off the MCG??

The WA Government are paying off the MCG??

WA is paying off everybody elses debt.

;-)

Boris said:

The WA Government are paying off the MCG??

WA is paying off everybody elses debt.

;-)

Really – how can I add my credit card to the list?

party_pants said:

Boris said:

The WA Government are paying off the MCG??

WA is paying off everybody elses debt.

;-)

Really – how can I add my credit card to the list?

start a union

i think you need to be a state PP not in a state.

wookiemeister said:

start a union

The Amalgamated Shit-Stirrers and Trouble-Makers Union – join now!

The Apathists and Procrastinators Union – one day you might care enough to join us!

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

start a union

The Amalgamated Shit-Stirrers and Trouble-Makers Union – join now!

you could always hang out with craig and swap stories, cry and laugh

party_pants said:

The Apathists and Procrastinators Union – one day you might care enough to join us!

Apathist? Thats a new word for me. Is that something to do with bees? Nah, that Apiarist. Or is that birds? I dunno, I’ll look it up in the dictionary…. tomorrow.

Apparently the working name for the project is Metropolitan Area Express.

I’ve thought of a name for the line that goes from Curtin Uni to UWA. We could call it the MEA CULPA – Metropolitan Area Express; Curtin to UWA Light Passenger Array.

We have only ourselves to blame if we give it a boring name.

scrub that – needs to be MAE something

The Federal Government has announced an $83 million solar research program in partnership with the United States.

The eight-year project will bring together six Australian universities, the CSIRO and the US department of energy.

Its aim is to create new technology that will reduce the cost of solar power.

Energy Minister Martin Ferguson says it is the biggest solar energy research investment in Australia’s history.

“The funding will see the establishment of two strategic research initiatives, the $33m US-Australia Institute for Advanced Photovoltaics and the $35m Australian Thermal Research Initiative,” Mr Ferguson said.

“These initiatives will accelerate solar technology development faster than either country could do working alone.”

US-Australian Institute for Advanced Photovoltaics director Martin Green told Radio National this morning that Australia was leading the world in development of cheaper, better photovoltaics, the technology used in most solar panels.

“Australia is essentially providing the technology that has driven down the price of solar dramatically in the past four years,” he said.

“We will be looking at ways at taking (photovoltaic) efficiency well beyond 25 per cent, perhaps to something like 40 per cent.”

The project will also research solar-thermal power, which involves using mirrors to concentrate the sun’s rays to boil water for turbines.

CSIRO National Solar Energy Centre manager Wes Stein says Australian research is creating better storage for solar-thermal power and smaller-scale technologies, which are driving down the cost.

“I would see solar-thermal being one of the lowest-cost forms of clean energy in the world in about 10 years’ time,” he said.

However, Beyond Zero Emissions executive director Matthew Wright says the project needs to look at real-world applications to compete with other clean energy leaders, including China.

“While we are busy with a bunch of nerds in the lab, (China) has got their nerds in the lab complemented by real commercial deployment, and that’s how you advance an industry and create a renewable sector,” he said.

US ambassador Jeffrey Bleich welcomed the partnership.

“We see the world the same way, we see the challenges in this region the same way,” Mr Bleich said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-13/government-boosts-solar-research-by-83m/4425824

History repeating itself.

Many moons ago, our Government sank many millions into solar research. And we developed some great technology and that money helped set up BP solar who made solar panels in what evolved into a $100 million per year export industry.

Until it was moved offshore because it was cheaper to make them there.

It is still cheaper to make them elsewhere. With our high dollar, the situation is probably even worse than when they moved the manufacturing offshore.

So here we go again. Develop something clever, imagine that we can make it ourselves and then watch commercial reality wash the investment into history. It is a naive and conceited view of our place in the world.

morrie said:

History repeating itself.

Many moons ago, our Government sank many millions into solar research. And we developed some great technology and that money helped set up BP solar who made solar panels in what evolved into a $100 million per year export industry.

Until it was moved offshore because it was cheaper to make them there.

It is still cheaper to make them elsewhere. With our high dollar, the situation is probably even worse than when they moved the manufacturing offshore.

So here we go again. Develop something clever, imagine that we can make it ourselves and then watch commercial reality wash the investment into history. It is a naive and conceited view of our place in the world.

its sad that we have such stupid politicians over here. i think its a one way trip for this place now. as long as the loans and minerals flow everything will be ok. we’ll be shipping out billions of dollars to the thrird world and in ten years time they’ll still be just as buggered up as they are now. instead of doing that we could just use that to build renewable energy plants. we don’t need any more research just use current technology. the french have already BUILT a solar furnace plant – why not just build that ??

wookiemeister said:

morrie said:

History repeating itself.

Many moons ago, our Government sank many millions into solar research. And we developed some great technology and that money helped set up BP solar who made solar panels in what evolved into a $100 million per year export industry.

Until it was moved offshore because it was cheaper to make them there.

It is still cheaper to make them elsewhere. With our high dollar, the situation is probably even worse than when they moved the manufacturing offshore.

So here we go again. Develop something clever, imagine that we can make it ourselves and then watch commercial reality wash the investment into history. It is a naive and conceited view of our place in the world.

its sad that we have such stupid politicians over here. i think its a one way trip for this place now. as long as the loans and minerals flow everything will be ok. we’ll be shipping out billions of dollars to the thrird world and in ten years time they’ll still be just as buggered up as they are now. instead of doing that we could just use that to build renewable energy plants. we don’t need any more research just use current technology. the french have already BUILT a solar furnace plant – why not just build that ??

I am not sure which solar furnace plant you are referring to, but the one that I am thinking of, near Nice, has been around for many years and has little to do with energy supply. France runs on nucear power.

I’d like to see us investing in algae for biofuel.

It is an area where we might have some comparative advantage in the manufacture. We have vast tracts of relatively flat land, which are marginal or unproductive for conventional agriculture. We could develop a new export industry. Transport costs shouldn’t be a big problem because they can cannibalise a small fraction of the product as fuel.

morrie said:

wookiemeister said:

morrie said:

History repeating itself.

Many moons ago, our Government sank many millions into solar research. And we developed some great technology and that money helped set up BP solar who made solar panels in what evolved into a $100 million per year export industry.

Until it was moved offshore because it was cheaper to make them there.

It is still cheaper to make them elsewhere. With our high dollar, the situation is probably even worse than when they moved the manufacturing offshore.

So here we go again. Develop something clever, imagine that we can make it ourselves and then watch commercial reality wash the investment into history. It is a naive and conceited view of our place in the world.

its sad that we have such stupid politicians over here. i think its a one way trip for this place now. as long as the loans and minerals flow everything will be ok. we’ll be shipping out billions of dollars to the thrird world and in ten years time they’ll still be just as buggered up as they are now. instead of doing that we could just use that to build renewable energy plants. we don’t need any more research just use current technology. the french have already BUILT a solar furnace plant – why not just build that ??

I am not sure which solar furnace plant you are referring to, but the one that I am thinking of, near Nice, has been around for many years and has little to do with energy supply. France runs on nucear power.

The largest solar furnace is at Odeillo in the Pyrénées-Orientales in France, opened in 1970. It employs an array of plane mirrors to gather sunlight, reflecting it onto a larger curved mirror.

I think that one was built by the Romans.

party_pants said:

I think that one was built by the Romans.

or archimedes

It’s an interesting facility, but I don’t think it is used to generate electricity. It’s used more for material experiments at high temperature, hard to get high temps using more conventional methods.

The first THEMIS solar plant, was an experimental solar facility which produced power between 1983 and 1986, and then closed in part due to the difficulty of managing the cooling system, and in part due to a lack of political and financial support. Construction started in 1979 at a cost of 300 million French francs (about 45 million euros), and was operated and managed by Électricité de France (EDF).

The plant went into hibernation for more than twenty years, and turned into a scientific facility of the CERN, and the Commissariat à l’énergie atomique focusing on astrophysics, with an open air Cherenkov Telescope, measuring gamma rays hitting the atmosphere (see IACT).

In 2004, a rehabilitation program was devised by the General Council of the Pyrénées-Orientales, to produce power, and create a research and development centre on solar energy with the Centre national de la recherche scientifique (CNRS), and Tecsol, a local engineering office.

THEMIS still has its 201 sun-following devices called heliostats, most of them still equipped with mirrors (53.70 m² each) covering an area of 11,800 m² in total, able to send the solar energy towards the hot spot at the top of the 104 m central tower, where the boiler was originally placed (which is now part of the exposition outside the Odeillo solar furnace). The heliostats are, however, not operational.

The three rows of heliostats furthest away from the tower are having their mirrors replaced by photovoltaic cells. Of these cells, some will follow the sun while others will not, so as to measure the difference in efficiency.

The rehabilitation project will repair half of the heliostats in order to develop a power of 1 MW, thanks to a gas turbine installed at the top of the tower, and will replace the other half of the mirrors with solar cells.

The PS10 Solar Power Plant (Spanish: Planta Solar 10), is the world’s first commercial concentrating solar power tower operating near Seville, in Andalucia, Spain. The 11 megawatt (MW) solar power tower produces electricity with 624 large movable mirrors called heliostats. It took four years to build and so far cost €35 million (US$46 million). PS10 produces about 23,400 megawatt-hours (MW·h) per year, for which it receives €271 (US$360) per MW·h under its power purchase agreement; equating to a revenue of €6.3 million per year.

party_pants said:

I’d like to see us investing in algae for biofuel.

It is an area where we might have some comparative advantage in the manufacture. We have vast tracts of relatively flat land, which are marginal or unproductive for conventional agriculture. We could develop a new export industry. Transport costs shouldn’t be a big problem because they can cannibalise a small fraction of the product as fuel.

Nice idea, but not commercially viable I think. Moll’s mob have been looking at it.

Transport costs are transport costs. The source of the fuel is irrelevant.

morrie said:

party_pants said:

I’d like to see us investing in algae for biofuel.

It is an area where we might have some comparative advantage in the manufacture. We have vast tracts of relatively flat land, which are marginal or unproductive for conventional agriculture. We could develop a new export industry. Transport costs shouldn’t be a big problem because they can cannibalise a small fraction of the product as fuel.

Nice idea, but not commercially viable I think. Moll’s mob have been looking at it.

Transport costs are transport costs. The source of the fuel is irrelevant.

my solution for fuel would be hydrogen

you could initially develop a truck engine that ran on hydrogen (or a fuel cell) that would be used to move stuff around the country

you could use a bigger engine for a locomotive engine that is a few hydrogen tanks are trailed behind the locomotive. you could either use the hydrogen as a turbine to generate electricity to feed the wheels or a fuel cell

the hydrogen would be produced by splitting water, as long as you had a small amount of water the fuel would be produced at the end of the line by road or rail. windy areas might produce hydrogen by using wind turbines to produce electricity.

a locomotive engine running on hydrogen could be the first prototype as large dumb tanks to hold the hydrogen under low temperatures would have to be used.

the government could make the hydrogen and sell it to the transport company at a price to make it commercially viable for them to invest in the fuel source. as time went by the government could do more than break even and start making profit

wookiemeister said:

morrie said:

party_pants said:

I’d like to see us investing in algae for biofuel.

It is an area where we might have some comparative advantage in the manufacture. We have vast tracts of relatively flat land, which are marginal or unproductive for conventional agriculture. We could develop a new export industry. Transport costs shouldn’t be a big problem because they can cannibalise a small fraction of the product as fuel.

Nice idea, but not commercially viable I think. Moll’s mob have been looking at it.

Transport costs are transport costs. The source of the fuel is irrelevant.

my solution for fuel would be hydrogen

you could initially develop a truck engine that ran on hydrogen (or a fuel cell) that would be used to move stuff around the country

you could use a bigger engine for a locomotive engine that is a few hydrogen tanks are trailed behind the locomotive. you could either use the hydrogen as a turbine to generate electricity to feed the wheels or a fuel cell

the hydrogen would be produced by splitting water, as long as you had a small amount of water the fuel would be produced at the end of the line by road or rail. windy areas might produce hydrogen by using wind turbines to produce electricity.

a locomotive engine running on hydrogen could be the first prototype as large dumb tanks to hold the hydrogen under low temperatures would have to be used.

the government could make the hydrogen and sell it to the transport company at a price to make it commercially viable for them to invest in the fuel source. as time went by the government could do more than break even and start making profit

Transperth trialled buses and found the maintenance costs were prohibitive.

storing hydrogen at low temps is known technology

using low temp hydrogen is a known technology

the fuel source is generally available everywhere

jjjust moi said:

wookiemeister said:

morrie said:

Nice idea, but not commercially viable I think. Moll’s mob have been looking at it.

Transport costs are transport costs. The source of the fuel is irrelevant.

my solution for fuel would be hydrogen

you could initially develop a truck engine that ran on hydrogen (or a fuel cell) that would be used to move stuff around the country

you could use a bigger engine for a locomotive engine that is a few hydrogen tanks are trailed behind the locomotive. you could either use the hydrogen as a turbine to generate electricity to feed the wheels or a fuel cell

the hydrogen would be produced by splitting water, as long as you had a small amount of water the fuel would be produced at the end of the line by road or rail. windy areas might produce hydrogen by using wind turbines to produce electricity.

a locomotive engine running on hydrogen could be the first prototype as large dumb tanks to hold the hydrogen under low temperatures would have to be used.

the government could make the hydrogen and sell it to the transport company at a price to make it commercially viable for them to invest in the fuel source. as time went by the government could do more than break even and start making profit

Transperth trialled buses and found the maintenance costs were prohibitive.

thats a bus

a locomotive can drag along big tanks of the stuff under low temperatures

you’d be using it for cargo not passengers.

because its a loco there wouldn’t be much need to miniaturise anything (which normally adds complexity)

jjjust moi said:

wookiemeister said:

morrie said:

Nice idea, but not commercially viable I think. Moll’s mob have been looking at it.

Transport costs are transport costs. The source of the fuel is irrelevant.

my solution for fuel would be hydrogen

you could initially develop a truck engine that ran on hydrogen (or a fuel cell) that would be used to move stuff around the country

you could use a bigger engine for a locomotive engine that is a few hydrogen tanks are trailed behind the locomotive. you could either use the hydrogen as a turbine to generate electricity to feed the wheels or a fuel cell

the hydrogen would be produced by splitting water, as long as you had a small amount of water the fuel would be produced at the end of the line by road or rail. windy areas might produce hydrogen by using wind turbines to produce electricity.

a locomotive engine running on hydrogen could be the first prototype as large dumb tanks to hold the hydrogen under low temperatures would have to be used.

the government could make the hydrogen and sell it to the transport company at a price to make it commercially viable for them to invest in the fuel source. as time went by the government could do more than break even and start making profit

Transperth trialled buses and found the maintenance costs were prohibitive.

thats a bus

a locomotive can drag along big tanks of the stuff under low temperatures

you’d be using it for cargo not passengers.

because its a loco there wouldn’t be much need to miniaturise anything (which normally adds complexity)

wookiemeister said:

jjjust moi said:

wookiemeister said:

my solution for fuel would be hydrogen

you could initially develop a truck engine that ran on hydrogen (or a fuel cell) that would be used to move stuff around the country

you could use a bigger engine for a locomotive engine that is a few hydrogen tanks are trailed behind the locomotive. you could either use the hydrogen as a turbine to generate electricity to feed the wheels or a fuel cell

the hydrogen would be produced by splitting water, as long as you had a small amount of water the fuel would be produced at the end of the line by road or rail. windy areas might produce hydrogen by using wind turbines to produce electricity.

a locomotive engine running on hydrogen could be the first prototype as large dumb tanks to hold the hydrogen under low temperatures would have to be used.

the government could make the hydrogen and sell it to the transport company at a price to make it commercially viable for them to invest in the fuel source. as time went by the government could do more than break even and start making profit

Transperth trialled buses and found the maintenance costs were prohibitive.

thats a bus

a locomotive can drag along big tanks of the stuff under low temperatures

you’d be using it for cargo not passengers.

because its a loco there wouldn’t be much need to miniaturise anything (which normally adds complexity)

Know what the word maintenance means?

jjjust moi said:

wookiemeister said:

jjjust moi said:

Transperth trialled buses and found the maintenance costs were prohibitive.

thats a bus

a locomotive can drag along big tanks of the stuff under low temperatures

you’d be using it for cargo not passengers.

because its a loco there wouldn’t be much need to miniaturise anything (which normally adds complexity)

Know what the word maintenance means?

if you were using a fuel cell not as much as a diesel loco.

you’d need to change the way things happened though

the loco would need to be reliable and easily maintained – from what i saw locos are far from easily maintained

morrie said:

Nice idea, but not commercially viable I think. Moll’s mob have been looking at it.

Transport costs are transport costs. The source of the fuel is irrelevant.

You’re probably right. I was just thinking if it was commercially viable then you use your own fuel at cost price. But if it’s not commercially viable then it’s a moot point.