<font size="3"color="orange">Something I didn't know, which has now been reinforced by further research:</font><br> !http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/bubcar9/grapefruit.jpg! <font size="3"color="orange">An apple a day might keep the doctor away, provided you eat the peel. But not all fruit is as good for us as we are led to believe. A review article published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal reveals that a chemical in grapefruit increases the risk of overdosing on certain medications, and can prove potentially fatal. It has been known for some time that the chemical in certain citrus fruits (including grapefruit, lime, pomelo and bitter orange such as the Seville) blocks the enzyme that breaks down some drugs. But the new review reveals the number of drugs that interact badly with grapefruit is higher than previously thought. They include some antiobiotics, cholesterol drugs, statins, heart and cancer medications. "We've known about it interacting with certain medications for a while," said Kathy Chapman, chairwoman of Cancer Council Australia's nutrition and physical activity committee. "Now it is a much wider list . . . Grapefruit is a seemingly innocuous type of food, but sometimes, particularly when concentrated as in grapefruit juice, it leads to high levels of the medicine in the bloodstream and that could cause problems." "Full report":http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/diet-and-fitness/not-all-fruit-is-good-fruit-20121203-2aquw.html#ixzz2E2h1Sp5p</font><br>

Grapefruit interactions (and fruits that have similar chemicals) have been known for decade(s).

Well, jolly good, but this is for all the people out there who weren’t aware.

Bubblecar said:

Well, jolly good, but this is for all the people out there who weren’t aware.

Drugs that are affected generally get a sticker on the box to warn about it.

Bubblecar said:

Well, jolly good, but this is for all the people out there who weren’t aware.

Drugs that are affected generally get a sticker on the box to warn about it.

Bubblecar said:

Well, jolly good, but this is for all the people out there who weren’t aware.

Drugs that are affected generally get a sticker on the box to warn about it.

Interesting…from the POV that this is the second posting I have read today that mentions grapefruits. The other one was a fb status update about how nice it is to walk to uni eating a grapefruit and not having it freeze…..like it does in Idaho at this time of the year.

Yeah, I know….strange people.

I’m on statins and I don’t recall seeing any grapefruit stickers.

OCDC said:

Bubblecar said:

Well, jolly good, but this is for all the people out there who weren’t aware.

Drugs that are affected generally get a sticker on the box to warn about it.

My phone is switching between 3G and wifi and I can’t tell if posts go though, so apologies.

Bubblecar said:

I’m on statins and I don’t recall seeing any grapefruit stickers.

Ask your box labellerman/woman…

Bubblecar said:

Well, jolly good, but this is for all the people out there who weren’t aware.

this was discussed in SSSF for years. Quite a few threads discussed grapefruit, drug interactions with naringin and inter-individual variation in the ability to taste the bitterness of grapefruit.

OK, but this thread is for those who missed those other threads and who don’t have grapefruit stickers on their meds even though they’re affected.

If it saves just one life, it will all have been worthwhile :)

Is it all statins? I thought fluvastatin was un- or less-affected.

OCDC said:

Is it all statins? I thought fluvastatin was un- or less-affected.

Yes.

poikilotherm said:

OCDC said:

Is it all statins? I thought fluvastatin was un- or less-affected.

Yes.

As in no…um.

Fluvastatin isn’t affected.

>>If it saves just one life, it will all have been worthwhile :)

You see, right there is the Albert Schweitzer gene coming out.

pravastatin and rosuvastatin are also not affected iirc.

Bubblecar said:

OK, but this thread is for those who missed those other threads and who don’t have grapefruit stickers on their meds even though they’re affected.

If it saves just one life, it will all have been worthwhile :)

yeah – but if you are on statins, there are other life-saving changes to your lifestyle which need more attending to than the occasional grapefruit. Like good, regular, effective exercise, weight loss and a reduction in alcohol consumption.

More a case to be aware that grapefruit interacts with oral contraceptives – now that is something to remember!

Bubblecar said:

It has been known for some time that the chemical in certain citrus fruits (including grapefruit, lime, pomelo and bitter orange such as the Seville) blocks the enzyme that breaks down some drugs.

Could that be used to advantage in specific instances? Take a smaller dose of a drug with a breakdown inhibitor, and maintain a more stable level of the drug?

Angus Prune said:

Bubblecar said:

It has been known for some time that the chemical in certain citrus fruits (including grapefruit, lime, pomelo and bitter orange such as the Seville) blocks the enzyme that breaks down some drugs.

Could that be used to advantage in specific instances? Take a smaller dose of a drug with a breakdown inhibitor, and maintain a more stable level of the drug?

Pretty sure if you search the old SSSF you’d find the answer.

In short, no (individual variations to drug response, enzyme levels, absorption etc).

Angus Prune said:

Bubblecar said:

It has been known for some time that the chemical in certain citrus fruits (including grapefruit, lime, pomelo and bitter orange such as the Seville) blocks the enzyme that breaks down some drugs.

Could that be used to advantage in specific instances? Take a smaller dose of a drug with a breakdown inhibitor, and maintain a more stable level of the drug?

fixed?

>>Pretty sure if you search the old SSSF you’d find the answer.

Knick Ross has destroyed all the old science threads and stole the name SSSF.
And you know all those new handles that appear every day on there, well Knick is making them up so that the forum has a lot of members and users so he can start putting ads on the site so he can buy a boat.

This thread has gone all orange. Perhaps it is on the wrong forum.

the big danger is in eating the grapefruit.. that pulp can fly, baby.

Might go watch a moofie or sumfink to while away these long hours before work.

Ah crap.

HALP!!

I’ve just woken from a peri-migrainal snooze on the couch, had a shower, and am about to crawl into bed.

On the ABC science facebook page, there’s that article about grapefruit juice and meds. The first response is the unsurprisingly “big pharma is evil!”. Please someone post an appropriate reply! If necessary I can do it tomorrow night but I have faith in youse and bet we can get it done sooner.

kthxbai

OCDC said:

HALP!!

On the ABC science facebook page, there’s that article about grapefruit juice and meds. The first response is the unsurprisingly “big pharma is evil!”. Please someone post an appropriate reply! If necessary I can do it tomorrow night but I have faith in youse and bet we can get it done sooner.

kthxbai

The appropriate reply would be,

‘Nick, for fucks sake. Take that fucking alfoil helmet off and listen to the fucking radio program or read the fucking transcript and fucking learn something instead of pouring forth that conspiratorial diarrhoea. Just because you have access to Teh Internetz doesn’t mean you should should be allowed to post your drivel. Grapefruit and some lime and orange cultivars have fucking toxic furocoumarins. These are CYP3A4 and CYP1A2 inhibitors and and calcium channel blocker . M’kay? Naturally occurring plant toxins which thwart the gut’s natural methods to stop uptake of other plant toxins or, in a modern context, a range of pharmaceuticals. Just one of those things.

And, what the fuck has grapefruit drug interactions to do with the beluga whales in the St. Lawrence River .. just.. WTF?”

+’

neomyrtus_ said:

OCDC said:

HALP!!

On the ABC science facebook page, there’s that article about grapefruit juice and meds. The first response is the unsurprisingly “big pharma is evil!”. Please someone post an appropriate reply! If necessary I can do it tomorrow night but I have faith in youse and bet we can get it done sooner.

kthxbai

The appropriate reply would be,

‘Nick, for fucks sake. Take that fucking alfoil helmet off and listen to the fucking radio program or read the fucking transcript and fucking learn something instead of pouring forth that conspiratorial diarrhoea. Just because you have access to Teh Internetz doesn’t mean you should should be allowed to post your drivel. Grapefruit and some lime and orange cultivars have fucking toxic furocoumarins. These are CYP3A4 and CYP1A2 inhibitors and and calcium channel blocker . M’kay? Naturally occurring plant toxins which thwart the gut’s natural methods to stop uptake of other plant toxins or, in a modern context, a range of pharmaceuticals. Just one of those things.

And, what the fuck has grapefruit drug interactions to do with the beluga whales in the St. Lawrence River .. just.. WTF?”

And they will hurt if they fall on your head…

I told them this thread might save lives, but no-one believed me.

Grapefruits scare me :/ had one squirt me in the eye when I tried to eat it with the special grapefruit spoon.

Bubblecar said:

I told them this thread might save lives, but no-one believed me.

I haven’t posted this in facebook. Feel free to correct Alfoil Nick if you think this will change the world.

Grapefruit juice makes an excellent solution for cleaning out the bong. A sort of organic bongfresh. Just be sure to replace it with water before use. Wouldn’t want any nasty interactions.

morrie said:

Grapefruit juice makes an excellent solution for cleaning out the bong. A sort of organic bongfresh. Just be sure to replace it with water before use. Wouldn’t want any nasty interactions.

erky perky. Don’t have a bong to wash.
I’d rather just drink the grapefruit juice. Though made into ice blocks is good to pour port over.

kii said:

Grapefruits scare me :/ had one squirt me in the eye when I tried to eat it with the special grapefruit spoon.

The way to solve this problem is to stab the grapefruit halves with a sharp knife. No viciously.. but gently. Need to sever some of the fibrous connections. Suffice to say there is not much gained from passing the knife right through as the juice just leaks out the bottom but a few cuts are the kindest cut when not wanting the juice to either squirt in eye or over mum’s best furniture.

neomyrtus_ said:

OCDC said:

HALP!!

On the ABC science facebook page, there’s that article about grapefruit juice and meds. The first response is the unsurprisingly “big pharma is evil!”. Please someone post an appropriate reply! If necessary I can do it tomorrow night but I have faith in youse and bet we can get it done sooner.

kthxbai

The appropriate reply would be,

‘Nick, for fucks sake. Take that fucking alfoil helmet off and listen to the fucking radio program or read the fucking transcript and fucking learn something instead of pouring forth that conspiratorial diarrhoea. Just because you have access to Teh Internetz doesn’t mean you should should be allowed to post your drivel. Grapefruit and some lime and orange cultivars have fucking toxic furocoumarins. These are CYP3A4 and CYP1A2 inhibitors and and calcium channel blocker . M’kay? Naturally occurring plant toxins which thwart the gut’s natural methods to stop uptake of other plant toxins or, in a modern context, a range of pharmaceuticals. Just one of those things.

And, what the fuck has grapefruit drug interactions to do with the beluga whales in the St. Lawrence River .. just.. WTF?”

You left out p-gp :)

And brussel sprouts. I used to like tangellos but stopped having them for brekkie just in case.

Brussels sprouts may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but doctors say they definitely should not be on some plates at Christmas.

The controversial vegetable is a traditional festive staple in countries including the United Kingdom.

But it can be a dangerous accompaniment to blood-thinning drugs like Warfarin, as one Scottish patient found out.

The Scottish man was prescribed the drug for heart failure and warned to stay away from green leafy vegetables, especially brussels sprouts.

‘Excessive consumption’

The vitamin K in the vegetable can interfere with the drug and cause adverse effects including bleeding, which can be fatal.

Despite the advice, the man consumed 15 to 20 brussel sprouts on three to four occasions in one week during the festive period and was admitted to hospital three days after Christmas, where his condition improved.

His treating physicians from the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Glasgow warned doctors and patients about the dangers of consuming excessive quantities of brussel sprouts at the Christmas table.

“Doctors should consider counselling patients who must remain anticoagulated at all times… against excessive consumption of this traditional Christmas fare,” they wrote in the Medical Journal of Australia on Monday.

Grapefruit

Meanwhile, those considering starting Christmas with a grapefruit breakfast or tossing a grapefuit salad might want to check their medication first.

Chemicals in grapefruit called furanocoumarins can interfere with up to 85 known medications, including cholesterol-lowering drugs, and can cause serious side effects in the case of 45 of them.

The fruit interacts with medications to increase the concentration of the drug in the bloodstream, putting patients at risk of overdose.

But Christmas can be a time of overindulgence for everyone, which carries its own risks.

Australasian College for Emergency Medicine president Dr Anthony Cross said emergency departments regularly see the effects of overindulgence at Christmas.

Often, it was a result of too much cheap food and wine, he said.

http://tvnz.co.nz/lifestyle/warning-over-excessive-brussels-sprouts-christmas-5275222

Skunkworks said:

.

His treating physicians from the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Glasgow warned doctors and patients about the dangers of consuming excessive quantities of brussel sprouts at the Christmas table.

Don’t eat them even if you’re not on any medication. No one likes a farting contest on Christmas Day.

Skunkworks said:

.

His treating physicians from the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Glasgow warned doctors and patients about the dangers of consuming excessive quantities of brussel sprouts at the Christmas table.

There’s a reason they’re known as the Devil’s Testicles

Divine Angel said:

Skunkworks said:

.

His treating physicians from the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Glasgow warned doctors and patients about the dangers of consuming excessive quantities of brussel sprouts at the Christmas table.

Don’t eat them even if you’re not on any medication. No one likes a farting contest on Christmas Day.

Warfarin and greens is as old as the hills, vitamin K content is the problem here, different to the grapefruit interaction.

Divine Angel said:

Don’t eat them even if you’re not on any medication. No one likes a farting contest on Christmas Day.

You have lived a sheltered life, missy :P

>Warfarin

Sad that some people have to sit down to a plate of Ratsak while others enjoy their Xmas dinner.

So, that makes me ask:

I make up a drink, cordial-like. Four oranges, three lemons and three tahitian limes are juiced. Normally this makes around 650ml to 750 ml. I use it to flavour water (and tonic water) as though it were a strong cordial. It is diluted about 10:1 for my drinks. I use the juice up over four or five days.

I use lime and lemon in my cooking a bit, too. Both juice and zest are used. Up to two of each fruit for two meals for two people. I cook about half the meals here. About half the meals I cook, I use some citrus.

I also take Simvastatin 40mg daily. The label says “Avoid eating grapefruit or grapefruit juice”. I don’t use grapfruit at all.

Should I be avoiding these other citrus juices and zests too?

>>the man consumed 15 to 20 brussel sprouts on three to four occasions in one week<<

That is an absurd number of sprouts to eat. I like Brussels sprouts, but I eat 4 or 5 (depending on size) per serve.

They might mean 15-20 spread over the 3-4 occasions, which would match your consumption.

Bubblecar said:

>Warfarin

Sad that some people have to sit down to a plate of Ratsak while others enjoy their Xmas dinner.

It’s not ratsak.

Michael V said:

So, that makes me ask:

I make up a drink, cordial-like. Four oranges, three lemons and three tahitian limes are juiced. Normally this makes around 650ml to 750 ml. I use it to flavour water (and tonic water) as though it were a strong cordial. It is diluted about 10:1 for my drinks. I use the juice up over four or five days.

I use lime and lemon in my cooking a bit, too. Both juice and zest are used. Up to two of each fruit for two meals for two people. I cook about half the meals here. About half the meals I cook, I use some citrus.

I also take Simvastatin 40mg daily. The label says “Avoid eating grapefruit or grapefruit juice”. I don’t use grapfruit at all.

Should I be avoiding these other citrus juices and zests too?

Got muscle pain? Generally feelings of malaise?

death by brussel sprout is probably not the best way to be remembered.

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

So, that makes me ask:

I make up a drink, cordial-like. Four oranges, three lemons and three tahitian limes are juiced. Normally this makes around 650ml to 750 ml. I use it to flavour water (and tonic water) as though it were a strong cordial. It is diluted about 10:1 for my drinks. I use the juice up over four or five days.

I use lime and lemon in my cooking a bit, too. Both juice and zest are used. Up to two of each fruit for two meals for two people. I cook about half the meals here. About half the meals I cook, I use some citrus.

I also take Simvastatin 40mg daily. The label says “Avoid eating grapefruit or grapefruit juice”. I don’t use grapfruit at all.

Should I be avoiding these other citrus juices and zests too?

Got muscle pain? Generally feelings of malaise?

.

Muscle pain: Yes, but more like stiffness. Mornings, for a couple of hours. Started when I was around 30 and has progressively taken more time to relieve as I have gotten older. Was one hour, has increased to two hours or more every morning. No specific increase since embarking on Simvastatin around 8 years ago.

Very occasionally I get night cramps which can be extremely annoying, very painful and quite difficult to deal with especially when the trunk and/or more than one limb is involved.

Malaise: Yes. I have had general and unaccountable malaise for many years. It started after an extremely bad bout of something with flu-like symptoms in my late 20s. I lost about 15 kg in one week and had serious waking hallucinations for four days. I thought I was going to die. I never got back the energy I had before.

The malaise has gotten stronger over the years – much stronger. It is now almost totally consuming, to the point where I now do very little because I have only small windows where I feel OK-ish. I find it difficult to self-stimulate (too energy-consuming) and if any boredom sets in, I am driven quite quickly to have a sleep. Most days I have at least one day-time sleep.

Perhaps the malaise jumped up a notch a few years back, perhaps not. But whilst worse now than ever before, it was certainly there pre-Simvastatin.

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

So, that makes me ask:

I make up a drink, cordial-like. Four oranges, three lemons and three tahitian limes are juiced. Normally this makes around 650ml to 750 ml. I use it to flavour water (and tonic water) as though it were a strong cordial. It is diluted about 10:1 for my drinks. I use the juice up over four or five days.

I use lime and lemon in my cooking a bit, too. Both juice and zest are used. Up to two of each fruit for two meals for two people. I cook about half the meals here. About half the meals I cook, I use some citrus.

I also take Simvastatin 40mg daily. The label says “Avoid eating grapefruit or grapefruit juice”. I don’t use grapfruit at all.

Should I be avoiding these other citrus juices and zests too?

Got muscle pain? Generally feelings of malaise?

.

Muscle pain: Yes, but more like stiffness. Mornings, for a couple of hours. Started when I was around 30 and has progressively taken more time to relieve as I have gotten older. Was one hour, has increased to two hours or more every morning. No specific increase since embarking on Simvastatin around 8 years ago.

Very occasionally I get night cramps which can be extremely annoying, very painful and quite difficult to deal with especially when the trunk and/or more than one limb is involved.

Malaise: Yes. I have had general and unaccountable malaise for many years. It started after an extremely bad bout of something with flu-like symptoms in my late 20s. I lost about 15 kg in one week and had serious waking hallucinations for four days. I thought I was going to die. I never got back the energy I had before.

The malaise has gotten stronger over the years – much stronger. It is now almost totally consuming, to the point where I now do very little because I have only small windows where I feel OK-ish. I find it difficult to self-stimulate (too energy-consuming) and if any boredom sets in, I am driven quite quickly to have a sleep. Most days I have at least one day-time sleep.

Perhaps the malaise jumped up a notch a few years back, perhaps not. But whilst worse now than ever before, it was certainly there pre-Simvastatin.

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.

Michael V said:

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.

There are treatments for nocturnal cramping too.

Michael V said:

So, that makes me ask:

I make up a drink, cordial-like. Four oranges, three lemons and three tahitian limes are juiced. Normally this makes around 650ml to 750 ml. I use it to flavour water (and tonic water) as though it were a strong cordial. It is diluted about 10:1 for my drinks. I use the juice up over four or five days.

I use lime and lemon in my cooking a bit, too. Both juice and zest are used. Up to two of each fruit for two meals for two people. I cook about half the meals here. About half the meals I cook, I use some citrus.

I also take Simvastatin 40mg daily. The label says “Avoid eating grapefruit or grapefruit juice”. I don’t use grapfruit at all.

Should I be avoiding these other citrus juices and zests too?

Not really unless your physician prescribes otherwise.

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.
——
Thanks.

We have been working on the malaise thing for some years with only one little success. Serum testosterone was very very low (<< 90 year-old mean level). This is now managed by an endocrinologist, as you would expect. 18 months of daily testogel treatment has had a subtle, positive effect on my life-long bouts of mental depression, but probably nothing much else.

buffy said:

>>the man consumed 15 to 20 brussel sprouts on three to four occasions in one week<<

That is an absurd number of sprouts to eat. I like Brussels sprouts, but I eat 4 or 5 (depending on size) per serve.

it may only be absurd if you have other greens but if all you have for greens are indeed the devil’s testicles.. would you go without greens?

poikilotherm said:

Bubblecar said:

>Warfarin

Sad that some people have to sit down to a plate of Ratsak while others enjoy their Xmas dinner.

It’s not ratsak.

No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.

There are treatments for nocturnal cramping too.

Magnesium salts?

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.

There are treatments for nocturnal cramping too.

.
Thanks. Those nocturnal cramping episodes are so infrequent, that I probably wouldn’t entertain ongoing treatment. Are any of the treatments just for acute events?

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.

There are treatments for nocturnal cramping too.

.
Thanks. Those nocturnal cramping episodes are so infrequent, that I probably wouldn’t entertain ongoing treatment. Are any of the treatments just for acute events?

Poik will probably say see your doctor but I found Crampeze solved the problem in the main.

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

Bubblecar said:

>Warfarin

Sad that some people have to sit down to a plate of Ratsak while others enjoy their Xmas dinner.

It’s not ratsak.

No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

Nope.

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Keep having the citrus then, sounds like all your potential interaction issues are related to previous episodes of illness. The increased malaise is concerning, something to bring up next time you see the GP IMO.

There are treatments for nocturnal cramping too.

.
Thanks. Those nocturnal cramping episodes are so infrequent, that I probably wouldn’t entertain ongoing treatment. Are any of the treatments just for acute events?

Most of the effective ones require nightly tablet taking. Alternatively, there is a particular antihypertensive/heart drug that can help (if you’re already on one, it could be changed to this).

roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

There are treatments for nocturnal cramping too.

.
Thanks. Those nocturnal cramping episodes are so infrequent, that I probably wouldn’t entertain ongoing treatment. Are any of the treatments just for acute events?

Poik will probably say see your doctor but I found Crampeze solved the problem in the main.

Yea, seems to work in some, not others. But, again, it’s a daily/nightly thing to be taking which MV isn’t overly keen on.

poikilotherm said:

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

It’s not ratsak.

No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

Nope.

That’s cleared up something for me. ;)

Cheers, thanks guys.

The nocturnal cramps occur only very, very occasionally and were mentioned in the context of the muscular pain question, to make a more complete answer.

To take regular medication for my cramping would be like taking daily pain-killers just in case I might happen to stub my toe badly.

:)

MV, that sounds bloody miserable, quite frankly. If you weren’t feeling depressed before, living with those symptoms would do it to most people.

This is not a loaded question, merely my curiously – How much exercise do you do?

Rule 303 said:

MV, that sounds bloody miserable, quite frankly. If you weren’t feeling depressed before, living with those symptoms would do it to most people.

This is not a loaded question, merely my curiously – How much exercise do you do?

.
Not much. Certainly nothing that is exercise-for-exercise’s sake. (I choose to use stairs instead of escalators or lifts where possible when I am out – which is not often. Our block is steep and the house has 3 sets of stairs as access to the living level, which is 3 metres above ground at the front, and at ground level at the rear. I try to run up the stairs at least a couple of times a day.) I am most definitely overweight and unfit. I weigh about 6 kg less than I did when I was 32, but 14 kg more than when I was 28 (when I stopped growing) and 36 kg more than when I was 19.

But now I am unemployed, I have started some very serious gardening, which requires very significant effort. You see, I have a steep block (18 degrees, average) and the soil here is hard clay with 40% embedded rock. It is intensely hydrophobic. So hydrophobic that after a month of regular storms delivering about 300mm of rain (a couple of years back), moisture had only penetrated about 20mm. Groundcovers, herbs and vegetables do not grow. The rain just runs off…

I have embarked on a terracing plan. That involves using a crow bar, and/or jackhammer to break the soil, then digging it, bashing and throw-seiving the soil lumps through an old 10mm chain mail bed-base set up at an angle. All coarse rock is removed to a depth of 200-300mm, and the remaining clay lumps are small. I use the coarse-fraction to construct a down-hill “terrace-edge dam”. I then mix in gypsum and compost to the fines and put that back as a properly levelled bed using a spirit level and straight edge. Newspapers collected from neighbours are then used as a basal mulch, covered by leaves and other macerated plant material.

The first bed took seven days to construct, with around 2-3 hours heavy exercise per day. It is 1.5m x 3.5m x 250mm deep (average). It took serious effort. Hopefully it will provide us vegetables soon. I am on to my second garden bed now, but have now worn out my bed-base seive. The chain-mail is failing…

:(

Anyway, the plan is that as I get fitter, I will eventually get to use my bicycle to do the grocery shopping.

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

MV, that sounds bloody miserable, quite frankly. If you weren’t feeling depressed before, living with those symptoms would do it to most people.

This is not a loaded question, merely my curiously – How much exercise do you do?

.

The rain just runs off…

I have embarked on a terracing plan.
Anyway, the plan is that as I get fitter, I will eventually get to use my bicycle to do the grocery shopping.

All good about terracing. The walking up and down the slope is good exercise. The rest only needs to be done if you are digging for gold. I’d get on the bike sooner and lay the black snake down.

Push wheelbarrows of mulch up the slope and spread it. but first spray the soil with a wetting agent and chuck a couple of packets of worms up at the top of the slope.

Yes.. start terracing at the top of the slope and work down.

>No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

It used to be, but has largely been superseded by brodifacoum, which is more powerful:

Brodifacoum is a 4-hydroxycoumarin anticoagulant, with a similar mode of action to its historical predecessors dicoumarol and warfarin. However, due to very high potency and long duration of action (elimination half-life of 20 – 130 days), it is characterised as a “second generation” or “superwarfarin” anticoagulant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodifacoum

Bubblecar said:

>No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

It used to be, but has largely been superseded by brodifacoum, which is more powerful:

Brodifacoum is a 4-hydroxycoumarin anticoagulant, with a similar mode of action to its historical predecessors dicoumarol and warfarin. However, due to very high potency and long duration of action (elimination half-life of 20 – 130 days), it is characterised as a “second generation” or “superwarfarin” anticoagulant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodifacoum

Yes but warfarin will still kill rats?

>Yes but warfarin will still kill rats?

Sure, in the right dosage.

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

Biodegradable and septic safe washing detergents are cheaper and do the same as wetting agents.

poikilotherm said:

roughbarked said:

poikilotherm said:

It’s not ratsak.

No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

Nope.

Sorry poik, but you’ve been misled. See the Ratsak MSDS http://msds.duluxgroup.com/pdf/SHESS-EN-CDS-010-000000022255.pdf

“3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Components | CAS Number | Proportion | Risk Phrases
Warfarin | 81-81-2 | 0.05% | R48/25 R52/53 R61
Inerts | – | to 100% | -”

“Medical attention and special treatment:
The active constituent in this product is warfarin, an anticoagulant. Vitamin K1 is antidotal.”

“Product Name: DOUBLE STRENGTH RATSAK”

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

.
Removing over half the 40% stone during the seiving is good, too. As is adding the compost. Terracing is good as it will help trap the rainfall on the block, reduce run-off, increase retention of organics and reduce the amount of reticulated water I have to add.

Roughbarked, you talked of packets of worms. What do you mean?

That fellow the unknown man who was part of the deception plan for D Day invasions died after eating rat poisoned bread.

>“Product Name: DOUBLE STRENGTH RATSAK”

Ah. On their website the active ingredient for most of the range is listed as brodifacoum. But I well remember warfarin being the standard Ratsak ingredient.

Wocky said:

poikilotherm said:

roughbarked said:

No but it is indeed used in rat poisons?

Nope.

Sorry poik, but you’ve been misled. See the Ratsak MSDS http://msds.duluxgroup.com/pdf/SHESS-EN-CDS-010-000000022255.pdf

“3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Components | CAS Number | Proportion | Risk Phrases
Warfarin | 81-81-2 | 0.05% | R48/25 R52/53 R61
Inerts | – | to 100% | -”

“Medical attention and special treatment:
The active constituent in this product is warfarin, an anticoagulant. Vitamin K1 is antidotal.”

“Product Name: DOUBLE STRENGTH RATSAK”

It’s not in Ratsak, it’s in Ratsak Double Strength :P.

Was under the impression it was all replaced with brodifacoum.

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

Gypsum does help some soils.

Skunkworks said:

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

Biodegradable and septic safe washing detergents are cheaper and do the same as wetting agents.

Well, they are wetting agents.

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

.
Removing over half the 40% stone during the seiving is good, too. As is adding the compost. Terracing is good as it will help trap the rainfall on the block, reduce run-off, increase retention of organics and reduce the amount of reticulated water I have to add.

Roughbarked, you talked of packets of worms. What do you mean?

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yenda/landscaping-gardening/worm-tech-stockists-of-compost-worms-worm-farms-fertiliser/1009214009

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

.
Removing over half the 40% stone during the seiving is good, too. As is adding the compost. Terracing is good as it will help trap the rainfall on the block, reduce run-off, increase retention of organics and reduce the amount of reticulated water I have to add.

Roughbarked, you talked of packets of worms. What do you mean?

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yenda/landscaping-gardening/worm-tech-stockists-of-compost-worms-worm-farms-fertiliser/1009214009

http://wormtech.com.au/about-us.html

I know Adrian well. He’s an honest bloke and has healthy worms.

roughbarked said:

http://wormtech.com.au/about-us.html

I know Adrian well. He’s an honest bloke and has healthy worms.

Well, it is important to have healthy worms. You’d want a nice long tapeworm because hey, if you’ve got one, you may as well do it properly.

roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

but first spray the soil with a wetting agent
—-
Tried that. No improvement. Which is (in part) why the current project. Gypsum is working wonders.

.
Removing over half the 40% stone during the seiving is good, too. As is adding the compost. Terracing is good as it will help trap the rainfall on the block, reduce run-off, increase retention of organics and reduce the amount of reticulated water I have to add.

Roughbarked, you talked of packets of worms. What do you mean?

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yenda/landscaping-gardening/worm-tech-stockists-of-compost-worms-worm-farms-fertiliser/1009214009

.
Thanks. Didn’t know worms are retail items. I’ll chase and see what I can find nearby.

roughbarked said:

http://wormtech.com.au/about-us.html

I know Adrian well. He’s an honest bloke and has healthy worms.

.

And they mail them?

Michael V said:

roughbarked said:

http://wormtech.com.au/about-us.html

I know Adrian well. He’s an honest bloke and has healthy worms.

.

And they mail them?

.

I see. They do. Wow!

The soil where my alyssums are has turned sandy. Think worms will help?

Michael V said:

roughbarked said:

http://wormtech.com.au/about-us.html

I know Adrian well. He’s an honest bloke and has healthy worms.

.

And they mail them?

Yes but not in very hot weather, though they do pack them well.

Divine Angel said:

The soil where my alyssums are has turned sandy. Think worms will help?

yes worms will always help but sandy soils do need more humus.