Bitcoin (BTC) is a digital currency first described in a 2008 paper by pseudonymous developer Satoshi Nakamoto, who called it a peer-to-peer, electronic cash system. Bitcoin creation and transfer is based on an open source cryptographic protocol and is not managed by any central authority. Each bitcoin is subdivided into 100 million smaller units called satoshis, defined by eight decimal places. Bitcoins can be transferred through a computer or smartphone without an intermediate financial institution.

The creation of new bitcoins is automated and accomplished by servers, called bitcoin miners that run on an internet-based network and confirm bitcoin transactions by adding codes to a decentralized log, which is updated and archived periodically. The number of newly created bitcoins per period depends on how long the network has been running. Currently, 25 new bitcoins are generated with every 10-minute block. This will be halved to 12.5 BTC during the year 2017 and halved continuously every 4 years after until a hard limit of 21 million bitcoins is reached during the year 2140.

Bitcoin is accepted in trade by various merchants and individuals in many parts of the world. A large share of such commercial use is believed to be for illicit drug and gambling transactions. Although bitcoin was initially promoted as a digital currency, many commentators have criticized Bitcoin’s volatile market value, relatively inflexible supply, and minimal use in trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

http://bitcoin.org/en/

https://mtgox.com/

Is it like tupperware?

If you have ~$100 to spare, buy a bitcoin.

Make sure that it is spare money though.

Quite possibly the best investment that you will make.

Apr. 24, 2013 — As of April 2013, Bitcoin’s market capitalization had soared to more than $1 billion, making it a frequent target of fraudsters. Bitcoins are encrypted virtual money created by computer programmers and not backed by any country or government.

A traceable form of cyber money, Bitcoins can be purchased and used much like hard currency to pay for goods and services, mostly over the Internet. Part of Bitcoins’ attraction is its potential to reduce transaction fees for online purchases, as well as its mathematically-enforced protections against inflation.

Study authors Moore and Christin identified 40 Bitcoin exchanges worldwide that convert the cyber money into 33 hard currencies. Of those 40, 18 have gone out of business. Nine of the 40 experienced security breaches from hackers or other criminal activity, forcing five of them to subsequently close. Another 13 closed without any publicly announced breach, according to Moore and Christin.

From their study, the researchers found the failure rate of Bitcoin exchanges is 45 percent. The median lifetime of an exchange is just over one year, 381 days.

Of the 18 Bitcoin exchanges that closed, in 11 of those cases the authors were able to find evidence of whether or not the customers were reimbursed their money. Five exchanges didn’t reimburse their customers. Six claim to have done so.

“The risk of losing funds stored at exchanges is real but uncertain,” write Moore and Christin in “Beware the Middleman: Empirical Analysis of Bitcoin-Exchange Risk,” which was invited for presentation at the 17th International Financial Cryptography and Data Security Conference held in Okinawa, Japan, April 1-5.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130424161112.htm

>> As of April 2013, Bitcoin’s market capitalization had soared to more than $1 billion<<

This is the reason that I have began to take it seriously.

http://en.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1clxws/come_and_hack_toronto_bitcoin_exchange_and_get_btc/

You can make money…..

Get out early before the whole pyramid falls unders it’s weight.

tauto said:

You can make money…..

Get out early before the whole pyramid falls unders it’s weight.

Get in early.

Use money that you can afford to lose.

Currently $1B.

Still remember when Steve Jobs offered Apple users shares for $1. Some Apple fans became millionaires. I certainly regret not buying 100 shares.

A few months ago bitcoins were available for around $1.

Kingy said:

A few months ago bitcoins were available for around $1.

way back, they were worth bugger all.

I have been researching this subject for a few months.

Do not invest your life savings into it.

Invest a few hundred dollars.

It may well be the best investment that you have ever made, it may also be a big fizzer.

Risk.

Kingy said:

I have been researching this subject for a few months.

Do not invest your life savings into it.

Invest a few hundred dollars.

It may well be the best investment that you have ever made, it may also be a big fizzer.

Risk.

I’ve seen a lot of people blow $100 on any Friday night.

roughbarked said:

I’ve seen a lot of people blow $100 on any Friday night.

The terms, Friday night, $100 and blow, are always in the same sentence, usually preceded by “Charlie Sheen”.

OK, so how do you buy a bitcoin?

pommiejohn said:

OK, so how do you buy a bitcoin?

Setup a ‘wallet’ first…

http://bitcoin.org/en/

Also note there is no ‘insurance’ as such, if your wallet is hacked, that’s it, BTC gone into the aether.

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.
I’m going to be rich, richer than a weather girl.
I’ve told others about it, the old guy across the road is going to the bank today, he trusts my advice.

Peak Warming Man said:

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.
I’m going to be rich, richer than a weather girl.
I’ve told others about it, the old guy across the road is going to the bank today, he trusts my advice.

Don’t trust your electronic wallets. Take ‘em out and bury them in the back yard.

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

The Rev Dodgson said:

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

Basically.

You can wait for wookie to talk about ‘value’ and currencies, it’s always about as amusing as soiling oneself.

The Rev Dodgson said:

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

I think you’ve summed it up very well.

The Rev Dodgson said:

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

So can they be traded simply as a commodity or can they just be exchanged for goods?

pommiejohn said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

So can they be traded simply as a commodity or can they just be exchanged for goods?

Both, certain websites will accept them as payment.

i’ll wait until i hear what tom waterhouse has to say.

Boris said:

i’ll wait until i hear what tom waterhouse has to say.

Silence is golden.

pommiejohn said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

So can they be traded simply as a commodity or can they just be exchanged for goods?

Many websites accept them as payment, and they are the currency of choice for those who like to leave no financial trail.

Carmen_Sandiego said:

pommiejohn said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So these bitcoin things, have no inherent value, but are traded at rapidly inflating prices because they are trading at rapidly inflating prices?

It’ll end in tears (other than for the tiny minority who make a mint by selling at the inflated price just before the inevitable near instantaneous crash).

So can they be traded simply as a commodity or can they just be exchanged for goods?

Many websites accept them as payment, and they are the currency of choice for those who like to leave no financial trail.

Amusingly, it is quite trackable…

Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme—the Internet’s favorite currency will collapse

Bitcoin is a fantasy. The Internet’s currency—a secure, private, decentralized type of money that makes possible anonymous and virtually costless transactions across borders—contains the seeds of its own destruction. More than anything else, it resembles a Ponzi scheme—and the wild claims made on its behalf reveal a great deal about a libertarian strain of thinking with deep roots in the American psyche.

As Farhad Manjoo relates in his entertaining (but dubious) foray into the market, bitcoin is the brainchild of a person (or persons) called Satoshi Nakamoto. Computer users can “mine” bitcoins by instructing their computers to solve complex problems generated by the bitcoin network. As more bitcoins are produced, the problems become more complex, requiring more computer power to solve them, and this limits the total number of bitcoins that can be created over time. Bitcoins are themselves simply strings of numbers. Once you own a bitcoin, you can transfer it to someone else (as a gift or to purchase goods) over the Internet. You can also convert it into dollars or other currencies on various exchanges. The Bitcoin network keeps track of where the bitcoins are located, so you cannot spend a single bitcoin over and over again by trying to transmit the identical code.*

The currency was launched in 2009. It has traded for less than 1 cent. As recently as a year ago, a bitcoin was worth less than $5; this week the price of a bitcoin reached $266, an increase of more than 1,000 percent over the last three months, but then yesterday plunged to $105 before finishing off at $165 last I looked. More than 11 million bitcoins circulate, and so their aggregate value is fluctuating between $1 and $2 billion—a tiny fraction of the trillions of dollars in currency but not bad for the infant brainchild of an anonymous brain.

Bitcoin may be useful for certain types of transactions, especially illegal ones. But bitcoin’s defenders argue that the experiment has proved that a currency can come into existence and function without any government role, so designed as to make inflation impossible and bank transfer fees unnecessary. These features are supposed to make bitcoins irresistible for consumers. Meanwhile, stripped of the power to manipulate currencies to advance nefarious ends, governments will collapse, and we will live in an anarcho-utopia.

This is wrong, both theory and experience tell us. Bitcoin is not the first unregulated or private currency. Until central banks were invented in the 17th century, the money supply was unregulated even if governments did stamp coins. Other unregulated or private currencies have emerged from time to time—think of cigarettes in prison camps. Gold, silver, bank notes, and all kinds of other things have played similar roles. Paul Krugman wrote a famous Slate piece about a private currency that was invented to facilitate the exchange of services in a baby-sitting co-op.

Felix Salmon and many others have pointed out that a currency cannot succeed with a supply that is fixed, or if it grows too slowly. A currency is used to enter transactions; the more transactions there are, the more of the money you need. As the economy grows, a fixed-supply currency becomes worth more in terms of goods and services, and people begin to hoard it—expecting that if they wait a little longer, they will be able to buy more. Once hoarding takes over, circulation ends, and with it the function of the currency. Hoarding accounts for the large increase in the value of bitcoins; hoarding also sank Krugman’s baby-sitting scrip.

An even more fundamental problem with bitcoins, and indeed any private currency, is that there is no way to limit its supply. True, bitcoins cannot be manufactured beyond the limits set by Nakamoto. But there is no way to prevent future Nakamotos from creating bitcoin substitutes—say, bytecoin, or botcoin. If merchants are willing to accept bitcoins, they will be willing to accept the substitutes, especially as bitcoins become scarce and consumers scramble for substitutes. Nakamoto must have realized this because there are not enough bitcoins to substitute for the currencies around the world. The currency can only succeed if it is expanded or supplemented. But if there are no constraints on substitute digital currencies—and there aren’t—then the value of bitcoins will plummet as the subs begin to circulate. And once it becomes clear that there is no limit, people will realize that their holdings could become worthless at any moment, and demand for bitcoins and the other currencies will collapse, ending the experiment.

Unless a bitcoin has value as a currency, it has no value at all, and its price in dollars will fall to zero. A regular Ponzi scheme collapses when people realize that earlier investors are being paid out of the investments of later investors rather than from the returns on an underlying asset. Bitcoin will collapse when people realize that it can’t survive as a currency because of its built-in deflationary features, or because of the emergence of bytecoins, or both. A real Ponzi scheme takes fraud; bitcoin, by contrast, seems more like a collective delusion.

Given this, why all the enthusiasm for bitcoin? Partly, the technological ingenuity of the scheme, of course. And people have misinterpreted the run-up in price as a sign of success rather than failure. But more fundamentally, bitcoin unites futuristic left-wing Internet anarchism—the fantasy that the Web can provide the conditions for a governmentless society—with the cave-dwelling right-wing libertarianism of goldbugs who think a stable money supply can be established without government involvement. It is proof for both that government is not needed for much, or at all.

Yet history shows that private currencies always end in tears; if central banks sometimes abuse the trust we place in them, the alternatives are worse. The strangest feature of the bitcoin saga is that people who are so suspicious of government put their trust in Satoshi Nakamoto, who could be anyone, or anyones—eccentric academic researchers, mischievous Fed economists, DARPA, U.N. globalizers in black helicopters, a criminal syndicate, a bored 11-year-old Ukrainian genius. If Nakamoto is as amoral as he is ingenious, then he pocketed the early bitcoins and laughed himself to the bank.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2013/04/bitcoin_is_a_ponzi_scheme_the_internet_currency_will_collapse.html

Hey Kingy, forget bitcoin..

But check this out.. I got this bag of beans.. but they’re not just any old beans…

Ponzi scheme seems to sum it up well.

But I’m still not clear how it works.

When a new bitcoin is created, does the bitcoin company receive the cost of it, or does it go to the owners of the computer that solved the problem, or what?

When an internet site accepts bitcoins, what exchange rate do they use? The current market price? How can they handle that when it fluctuates so wildly?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Ponzi scheme seems to sum it up well.

But I’m still not clear how it works.

When a new bitcoin is created, does the bitcoin company receive the cost of it, or does it go to the owners of the computer that solved the problem, or what?

When an internet site accepts bitcoins, what exchange rate do they use? The current market price? How can they handle that when it fluctuates so wildly?

1 – the miner receives it ( google bitcoin mining) into their wallet. In the case of distributed mining, people get a piece of the bit coin equivalent to the donated processing power that was used on their end afaict.

2 – Depends on the site, there are multiple exchanges.

poikilotherm said:

1 – ( google bitcoin mining)

OK, could do that I suppose :)

https://www.weusecoins.com/en/mining-guide
is quite interesting

poikilotherm said:

2 – Depends on the site, there are multiple exchanges.

I still don’t see why any (legitimate) company would accept such a volatile “currency”, or why anyone would choose to use it for purchases, except when the price had collapsed.

The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

1 – ( google bitcoin mining)

OK, could do that I suppose :)

https://www.weusecoins.com/en/mining-guide
is quite interesting

poikilotherm said:

2 – Depends on the site, there are multiple exchanges.

I still don’t see why any (legitimate) company would accept such a volatile “currency”, or why anyone would choose to use it for purchases, except when the price had collapsed.

People are weird.

poikilotherm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

1 – ( google bitcoin mining)

OK, could do that I suppose :)

https://www.weusecoins.com/en/mining-guide
is quite interesting

poikilotherm said:

2 – Depends on the site, there are multiple exchanges.

I still don’t see why any (legitimate) company would accept such a volatile “currency”, or why anyone would choose to use it for purchases, except when the price had collapsed.

People are weird.

esp. about money.

The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

1 – ( google bitcoin mining)

OK, could do that I suppose :)

https://www.weusecoins.com/en/mining-guide
is quite interesting

poikilotherm said:

2 – Depends on the site, there are multiple exchanges.

I still don’t see why any (legitimate) company would accept such a volatile “currency”, or why anyone would choose to use it for purchases, except when the price had collapsed.

Why does any company accept a piece of plastic in exchange for goods? Especially credit cards.

Currently you swipe a piece of plastic with a magnetic stripe containing ones and zeros, and somewhere in a database some ones and zeros are changed. Or you can use a different piece of plastic with some ink on it that in reality is no different than a coles bag, but is exchanged for goods at the current rate.

Bitcoins cannot be printed by the government, they also cannot be removed out of your account by the government. The main reason for the spike in bitcoin last month was the Cyprus Govts theft of money out of personal bank accounts. Many people saw that and realised that their own government could do the same, so they wanted to put their money somewhere “safe”.

It has a lot going for it, and as previously mentioned, it has a few drawbacks. Do not put your life savings into it, but it appears to be worth a dabble, much like a stock market share.

It all depends on confidence. If people have confidence in any currency or medium of exchange it survives. If not, it doesn’t.

>Many people saw that and realised that their own government could do the same, so they wanted to put their money somewhere “safe”.

Hmm, more evidence that bitcoin should be avoided.

Bubblecar said:

>Many people saw that and realised that their own government could do the same, so they wanted to put their money somewhere “safe”.

Hmm, more evidence that bitcoin should be avoided.

I’ll bear it in mind.

i’d take my chances playing Russian roulette before I sank any money into bitcoins

3 years ago you could have bought 500 bitcoins for $1.

At todays price, your $1 investment is worth AUS$66,500.

2 years ago your $1 would have bought 100 bitcoins.

1 year ago your $1 would have bought 0.2 of a bitcoin.

They are currently trading at US$133 per bitcoin.

sounds like a pyramid scheme scam

http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/study-45-percent-of-bitcoin-exchanges-end-up-closing/

“A study of the Bitcoin exchange industry has found that 45 percent of exchanges fail, taking their users’ money with them. Those that survive are the ones that handle the most traffic—but they are also the exchanges that suffer the greatest number of cyber attacks.”

I’ve changed all my real money for valuable Nigerian bitcoins

i’ll be a billionaire soon!!

wookiemeister said:

I’ve changed all my real money for valuable Nigerian bitcoins

i’ll be a billionaire soon!!

That’s just hyperinflation.

Angus Prune said:

wookiemeister said:

I’ve changed all my real money for valuable Nigerian bitcoins

i’ll be a billionaire soon!!

That’s just hyperinflation.

I’ve also pumped some cash into Weimar republic bitcoins

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

Kingy said:

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

The point is Kingy. An investment is worth zilch unless it is converted to cold hard cash. Have you cashed yours?

Do you think it is at the top of the market?

19 shillings said:

Do you think it is at the top of the market?

The best way to find out is sell.

roughbarked said:

Kingy said:

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

The point is Kingy. An investment is worth zilch unless it is converted to cold hard cash. Have you cashed yours?

I have not invested a cent so far. Mainly because I do not have a spare cent.

Those who bought bitcoins when they were worth 0.1c each are now set up for life.

Kingy said:

roughbarked said:

Kingy said:

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

The point is Kingy. An investment is worth zilch unless it is converted to cold hard cash. Have you cashed yours?

I have not invested a cent so far. Mainly because I do not have a spare cent.

Those who bought bitcoins when they were worth 0.1c each are now set up for life.

Depending on their age, they’d need a bloody lot of bitcoin for that. I’ve seen people apparently become instant multi-millionaires overnight and have nothing at all when they didn’t sell the scrip before it crashed.

Kingy said:

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

—-

OK

When was the last time you saw a stock go through the roof into the stratosphere and not crash back down to earth?

dotcom bubble……..

19 shillings said:

Kingy said:

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

—-

OK

When was the last time you saw a stock go through the roof into the stratosphere and not crash back down to earth?

dotcom bubble……..

Yep, we have seen them come and go.

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $660,000.

I would sell 99% now.

Kingy said:

19 shillings said:

Kingy said:

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $600,000

Ignore it if you wish.

—-

OK

When was the last time you saw a stock go through the roof into the stratosphere and not crash back down to earth?

dotcom bubble……..

Yep, we have seen them come and go.

A $1 investment 3 years ago is now worth $660,000.

I would sell 99% now.

If you had it.. Just think.. If you had bought when shares were $1 and for argument’s sake, let’s imagine that that single share is now worth $66.00. You could get your $66 but you couldn’t buy another single share for $1.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg60ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

SMH today:

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/i-survived-the-bitcoin-bubble-maybe-20130430-2iq8p.html

So this guy thinks that bitcoins are worth “about $200”, even though he “sold” for about $160, and he almost certainly won’t see a cent of the proceeds.

And why does he value them at $200, rather than $2, $20, $2000, or $20,000? As far as I can see, because that amount is what he would have been happy with, with a starting price of about $130.

It’s a pure Ponzi scheme, and the SMH is irresponsible in printing an article suggesting that these “coins” have some real significant value.

The Rev Dodgson said:

SMH today:

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/i-survived-the-bitcoin-bubble-maybe-20130430-2iq8p.html

So this guy thinks that bitcoins are worth “about $200”, even though he “sold” for about $160, and he almost certainly won’t see a cent of the proceeds.

And why does he value them at $200, rather than $2, $20, $2000, or $20,000? As far as I can see, because that amount is what he would have been happy with, with a starting price of about $130.

It’s a pure Ponzi scheme, and the SMH is irresponsible in printing an article suggesting that these “coins” have some real significant value.

In the grand scheme of things, not many mediums of exchange have “real” value. Mostly it’s about confidence, that whatever form of payment we receive for our labour or goods, the next person will accept that form as payment for stuff we want to buy off them. If everyone accepts that form of currency then it all works well, if people start not accepting it then it’s value drops and those left holding it lose out. Bit coin is no different to anything else in principle, but probably harder to win confidence because it is possibly not as secure as others.

party_pants said:

Bit coin is no different to anything else in principle, but probably harder to win confidence because it is possibly not as secure as others.

It is different. Other currencies are government controlled, and tied to the economic activity of the countries that issue them.

The bitcoin is set up with the intention that it will artificially inflate in value due to restricted supply, but since there Is nothing backing up the value, once there is a loss of confidence the value will collapse.

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

Bit coin is no different to anything else in principle, but probably harder to win confidence because it is possibly not as secure as others.

It is different. Other currencies are government controlled, and tied to the economic activity of the countries that issue them.

The bitcoin is set up with the intention that it will artificially inflate in value due to restricted supply, but since there Is nothing backing up the value, once there is a loss of confidence the value will collapse.

Depends on what their real motive is I guess.

If they intend to establish it as an actual medium of exchange for goods and services accepted broadly around the world then it might work.

If they intend for it to be an investment for people to buy into and then sell out back into hard currency without actually buying any goods or services with it, then yes, it will eventually collapse.

If they intend the first thing in the long term and then the second thing only as a short term measure to get it launched, then it will probably crash but not collapse.

party_pants said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

Bit coin is no different to anything else in principle, but probably harder to win confidence because it is possibly not as secure as others.

It is different. Other currencies are government controlled, and tied to the economic activity of the countries that issue them.

The bitcoin is set up with the intention that it will artificially inflate in value due to restricted supply, but since there Is nothing backing up the value, once there is a loss of confidence the value will collapse.

Depends on what their real motive is I guess.

If they intend to establish it as an actual medium of exchange for goods and services accepted broadly around the world then it might work.

If they intend for it to be an investment for people to buy into and then sell out back into hard currency without actually buying any goods or services with it, then yes, it will eventually collapse.

If they intend the first thing in the long term and then the second thing only as a short term measure to get it launched, then it will probably crash but not collapse.

No one is really sure what was intended, the ‘maker’ of the Bitcoin has quietly dissappeared. But you can buy things with them and you can ‘invest’ in them…

>If they intend to establish it as an actual medium of exchange for goods and services accepted broadly around the world then it might work.

“We accept PayPal, cash, personal cheques, Monopoly money and Billion Buck Bills from the Bank of Toytown. Oh, and Bitcoin.”

PayPal eyes Bitcoin’s disruptive potential
May 1, 2013 – 12:57PM
Liam Tung

Virtual currencies are on the drawing board at PayPal.

PayPal, eBay’s payments subsidiary, may be closer to accepting Bitcoin in the future, with the company saying it is well-placed to exploit the disruptive potential of the virtual currency.

The online payments processor handled no payments in 1998 but this year had 128 million active accounts and processed $US41 billion ($39.5 billion) in payments in three months.

David Marcus, president of eBay’s PayPal unit, has called Bitcoin “truly fascinating” and said PayPal had thought about adding Bitcoin to the 20-odd real currencies it supports.

“I think for us at PayPal it’s just a question of whether Bitcoin will make its way to PayPal’s funding instrument or not, and, you know, we’re kind of thinking about it,” said Marcus in an interview with Bloomberg last week.

PayPal has not announced plans to support Bitcoin, however the company told ITPro that it is looking at the currency for its ability to disrupt markets.

“The growth of alternative currencies like Bitcoin have the potential to be disruptive technologies, but they are all still in the early stages of development,” a spokesperson from PayPal’s headquarters said.

“As the company that created the online payments category over a decade ago, PayPal knows how hard it can be to manage payments globally in a regulated environment. We’re closely following this area and look forward to seeing how it develops.”

PayPal’s expertise at navigating payments regulations may be an advantage for the company. In March, the US Treasury’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (Fincen) ruled that service providers that help bridge the gap between Bitcoin and real currency are subject to its record-keeping and reporting requirements. PayPal already complies with these.

Australia has not released an official position on Bitcoin, but financial regulator, the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre (AUSTRAC), noted in a 2012 report that digital currencies that are not backed by precious metal are not regulated by Australian anti-money-laundering and counter-terrorism financing laws.

Companies that serve a similar purpose to PayPal have emerged for Bitcoin transactions, but they remain small by comparison and may not have the regulatory experience of PayPal.

The US start-up BitPay offers merchants a facility to accept Bitcoin payments and lock-in exchange rates. It completed about 5000 bitcoin invoices in March valued at $US5.2 million.

On the other hand, Bitcoin service providers are attractive in part because PayPal is subject to regulations the virtual currency is not. The currency’s acceptance worldwide is increasing.

Two of BitPay’s notable clients include Wordpress.com and Berlin-based short-term rental site 9flats.com. Both companies say they chose to accept Bitcoins because PayPal did not support customer payments from some countries.

An Australian company based on Bitcoin recently launched out of China. Called BitFash, it aims to let consumers use Bitcoins at fashion retailers’ websites.

http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/business-it/paypal-eyes-bitcoins-disruptive-potential-20130501-2isa4.html#ixzz2S0fQ4aaz

♫The Cake And The Candle | Paul Kelly | A-Z Downloads♪♩

I don’t get why regulators would even consider this thing as being legitimate currency.

I mean who is going to pay $x for a bitcoin on the basis that it might go to $2x, when they could get a betcoin for cx, and that has exactly the same potential.

And when the buttcoin comes out for c0.01x, who is going to buy a betcoin?

The Rev Dodgson said:

I don’t get why regulators would even consider this thing as being legitimate currency.

I mean who is going to pay $x for a bitcoin on the basis that it might go to $2x, when they could get a betcoin for cx, and that has exactly the same potential.

And when the buttcoin comes out for c0.01x, who is going to buy a betcoin?

I think you may have gathered that one, is not me.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I don’t get why regulators would even consider this thing as being legitimate currency.

I mean who is going to pay $x for a bitcoin on the basis that it might go to $2x, when they could get a betcoin for cx, and that has exactly the same potential.

And when the buttcoin comes out for c0.01x, who is going to buy a betcoin?

Regulators aren’t touching it, just watching and waiting.

poikilotherm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I don’t get why regulators would even consider this thing as being legitimate currency.

I mean who is going to pay $x for a bitcoin on the basis that it might go to $2x, when they could get a betcoin for cx, and that has exactly the same potential.

And when the buttcoin comes out for c0.01x, who is going to buy a betcoin?

Regulators aren’t touching it, just watching and waiting.

watching and waiting
for someone to understand me
i hope it wont be
…very long……………….Hayward-Thomas

Waiting for the bitcoin economy to implode?

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I don’t get why regulators would even consider this thing as being legitimate currency.

I mean who is going to pay $x for a bitcoin on the basis that it might go to $2x, when they could get a betcoin for cx, and that has exactly the same potential.

And when the buttcoin comes out for c0.01x, who is going to buy a betcoin?

I think you may have gathered that one, is not me.

On the other hand I’ve been waiting for Cabcharge to get wiped off the face of the Earth with their rip-off 10% mark up for about the last 20 years, so what do I know about these things?

Divine Angel said:

Waiting for the bitcoin economy to implode?

Pretty much. Most of the regulation comments are ‘it’s not backed by anything, use at your own risk’.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I don’t get why regulators would even consider this thing as being legitimate currency.

I mean who is going to pay $x for a bitcoin on the basis that it might go to $2x, when they could get a betcoin for cx, and that has exactly the same potential.

And when the buttcoin comes out for c0.01x, who is going to buy a betcoin?

I think you may have gathered that one, is not me.

On the other hand I’ve been waiting for Cabcharge to get wiped off the face of the Earth with their rip-off 10% mark up for about the last 20 years, so what do I know about these things?

Probably missed that many of those in places of power have an interest in cabcharge maintaining a staus quo (I almost sound like teh wookster report).

There is an interesting price increase happening. Not sure what is causing it this time, but I am guessing that there are a few speculators having a play.

From $130 to $200 this month so far.

• There is an interesting price increase happening. Not sure what is causing it this time, but I am guessing that there are a few speculators having a play.

They’re selling drugs now, aren’t they?

furious said:

• There is an interesting price increase happening. Not sure what is causing it this time, but I am guessing that there are a few speculators having a play.

They’re selling drugs now, aren’t they?

Apparently now you can’t buy drugs without bitcoin.

Cash, credit cards, and stolen goods are no longer acceptable as trade for drugs!!!

…or it could be that the governments that print the rigged $ are feeling threatened by it and are spreading misinformation about bitcoin.

• or it could be that the governments that print the rigged $ are feeling threatened by it and are spreading misinformation about bitcoin.

et tu kingy?

Kingy said:

Apparently now you can’t buy drugs without bitcoin.

Cash, credit cards, and stolen goods are no longer acceptable as trade for drugs!!!

I’m fairly sure that I could walk about a kilometre and source just about anything. I do doubt whether they’d accept a bitcoin though.

furious said:

• or it could be that the governments that print the rigged $ are feeling threatened by it and are spreading misinformation about bitcoin.

et tu kingy?

I see it as the currency equivalent of torrents.

Govts can shut down torrent websites, but torrents survive in the wilderness of the outer ‘net.

Bitcoin is likely to do the same. When the $US collapses under the weight of it’s own debt, people will be looking to put their money somewhere.

Kingy said:

When the $US collapses under the weight of it’s own debt, people will be looking to put their money somewhere.

Ummmm no.

Kingy said:

Bitcoin is likely to do the same. When the $US collapses under the weight of it’s own debt, people will be looking to put their money somewhere.

Cheesus, kingy, do you really believe that?

The USA has been in far worse financial strife on many occasions. It will pull through just as it always has. The demise of the USA is a long, long way away. It will eventually happen, but not in your lifetime.

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

Apparently now you can’t buy drugs without bitcoin.

Cash, credit cards, and stolen goods are no longer acceptable as trade for drugs!!!

I’m fairly sure that I could walk about a kilometre and source just about anything. I do doubt whether they’d accept a bitcoin though.

Are you suggesting that the media reports about bitcoin and drugs are wrong??? OM f’n G! Hoodathunkit.

when America is swept away and its history swept away by the post apocalyptic world, only the bitcoin will be left in the smouldering ruins and kingy will have been right

in the end only a currency that lives in the internet outlasted gold , hard currency and other stuff with real world value

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

Bitcoin is likely to do the same. When the $US collapses under the weight of it’s own debt, people will be looking to put their money somewhere.

Cheesus, kingy, do you really believe that?

The USA has been in far worse financial strife on many occasions. It will pull through just as it always has. The demise of the USA is a long, long way away. It will eventually happen, but not in your lifetime.

It’s called hedging your bets. A lot of people are thinking that they should have some money in a form that is not under the control of a government.

As of this post, there is $2,400,000,000 in bitcoin. That is what makes it worth watching.

bitcoin is really just a way of money laundering for criminal activity

Kingy said:

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

Bitcoin is likely to do the same. When the $US collapses under the weight of it’s own debt, people will be looking to put their money somewhere.

Cheesus, kingy, do you really believe that?

The USA has been in far worse financial strife on many occasions. It will pull through just as it always has. The demise of the USA is a long, long way away. It will eventually happen, but not in your lifetime.

It’s called hedging your bets. A lot of people are thinking that they should have some money in a form that is not under the control of a government.

As of this post, there is $2,400,000,000 in bitcoin. That is what makes it worth watching.

2.4 billion dollars !!!

The world shudders.

A lot of people think the moon landing was faked. The world is unfortunately not bereft of idiots.

I wonder what jesus would have done in the temple if they had been using bitcoin

used control, alt, delete and broken their hard drives?

• As of this post, there is $2,400,000,000 in bitcoin. That is what makes it worth watching.

as of this post there is f2,400,000,000 in circulation and I own each and every one of them…

where f = furians , the currency of fury…

furious said:

• As of this post, there is $2,400,000,000 in bitcoin. That is what makes it worth watching.

as of this post there is f2,400,000,000 in circulation and I own each and every one of them…

where f = furians , the currency of fury…

There are now a LOT of businesses using bitcoin as a tradable commodity(and none using f$).

I am not trying to sell anything here, just giving you a headsup that it is possibly going to be an important part of future trade.

sibeens’s early prediction for 2014

Bitcoin will sink like a stone.

furious said:

• As of this post, there is $2,400,000,000 in bitcoin. That is what makes it worth watching.

as of this post there is f2,400,000,000 in circulation and I own each and every one of them…

where f = furians , the currency of fury…

still doesn’t add up to one Wrath. Just saying

• There are now a LOT of businesses using bitcoin as a tradable commodity(and none using f$).

when the power goes out and electronic currency goes silent, there’ll still be plenty of fury and I’ll be holding all of the cards…

But seriously, “real” money is just as useless as “e-money”…

• still doesn’t add up to one Wrath. Just saying

fury is good enough to exchange for drugs which I can then on sell for wrath…

furious said:

• There are now a LOT of businesses using bitcoin as a tradable commodity(and none using f$).

when the power goes out and electronic currency goes silent, there’ll still be plenty of fury and I’ll be holding all of the cards…

But seriously, “real” money is just as useless as “e-money”…

Real money is backed by governments stating “here be giants’. Bitcoin is backed by……….

furious said:

• There are now a LOT of businesses using bitcoin as a tradable commodity(and none using f$).

when the power goes out and electronic currency goes silent, there’ll still be plenty of fury and I’ll be holding all of the cards…

But seriously, “real” money is just as useless as “e-money”…

won’t that blow Rick’s mind when he gets the monopoly board out again!

sibeen said:

furious said:

• There are now a LOT of businesses using bitcoin as a tradable commodity(and none using f$).

when the power goes out and electronic currency goes silent, there’ll still be plenty of fury and I’ll be holding all of the cards…

But seriously, “real” money is just as useless as “e-money”…

Real money is backed by governments stating “here be giants’. Bitcoin is backed by……….

When them giants run out of their own money and decide to take yours(Hello Cyprus), what are you going to do about it?

furious said:

as of this post there is f2,400,000,000 in circulation and I own each and every one of them…

where f = furians , the currency of fury…

In what sense are they circulating?

PM 2Ring said:

furious said:

as of this post there is f2,400,000,000 in circulation and I own each and every one of them…

where f = furians , the currency of fury…

In what sense are they circulating?

Brownian motion :)

• won’t that blow Rick’s mind when he gets the monopoly board out again!

That is the single most predictable and boring thing that anyone could ever say whilst playing Monopoly…

furious said:

• still doesn’t add up to one Wrath. Just saying

fury is good enough to exchange for drugs which I can then on sell for wrath…

if you got your wrath directly from batman you wouldn’t need the drugs, just the drug dealers adresses….

• In what sense are they circulating?

I get around…

furious said:

• won’t that blow Rick’s mind when he gets the monopoly board out again!

That is the single most predictable and boring thing that anyone could ever say whilst playing Monopoly…

Viv shoulda hit Neil less and Rick more ;)

currency is backed with guns and oil

you could make money by buying and selling bitcoin I guess

not too much or you could get stung

its a Ponzi scheme in a way

you get people to invest into something that is essentially worthless

• currency is backed with guns and oil

As the world’s population’s exploding
Wars for water, not oil

• you get people to invest into something that is essentially worthless

like “real money” or “gold” or “charity”…

Here’s a bit of history.

In 2010, a guy bought 2 pizzas with bitcoin.

These are the actual pizzas he bought.

He paid 10,000btc.

Which is now worth $2,000,000.

I hope they tasted nice.

furious said:

• currency is backed with guns and oil

As the world’s population’s exploding
Wars for water, not oil

It’s not. The rate of growth has subdued in an extraordinary way over the last twenty years. In the vast majority of developed nations growth is now negative. For developing nations, excluding Africa, it is also imploding, Africa will, I suspect, catch up (sic) very quickly.

• I hope they tasted nice.

dude was stoned and they were the best pizzas ever…

Kingy said:

Here’s a bit of history.

In 2010, a guy bought 2 pizzas with bitcoin.

These are the actual pizzas he bought.

He paid 10,000btc.

Which is now worth $2,000,000.

I hope they tasted nice.

Here’s a bit of history.

In September of 2008 it took Z$1000 to buy US$1. Zimbabwean to USA currency.

In early February of of 2009 it took Z$300 000 000 000 000 to buy US$1.

• In early February of of 2009 it took Z$300 000 000 000 000 to buy US$1.

And no one got pizza ever again…

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

Here’s a bit of history.

In 2010, a guy bought 2 pizzas with bitcoin.

These are the actual pizzas he bought.

He paid 10,000btc.

Which is now worth $2,000,000.

I hope they tasted nice.

Here’s a bit of history.

In September of 2008 it took Z$1000 to buy US$1. Zimbabwean to USA currency.

In early February of of 2009 it took Z$300 000 000 000 000 to buy US$1.

now you’ll get a USD for 398zd. what happened?

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

Here’s a bit of history.

In 2010, a guy bought 2 pizzas with bitcoin.

These are the actual pizzas he bought.

He paid 10,000btc.

Which is now worth $2,000,000.

I hope they tasted nice.

Here’s a bit of history.

In September of 2008 it took Z$1000 to buy US$1. Zimbabwean to USA currency.

In early February of of 2009 it took Z$300 000 000 000 000 to buy US$1.

So you agree with me about government controlled currency?

• now you’ll get a USD for 398zd. what happened?

Hang on. HANG ON! … How many pizzas is that?

I haven’t read it all, so apologies if this has already been said, but:

Bitcoins are pure Ponzi scheme.

The fact that some currencies are also Ponzi schemes does not make bitcoins any better.

furious said:

• you get people to invest into something that is essentially worthless

like “real money” or “gold” or “charity”…

None of those things are worthless.

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

• you get people to invest into something that is essentially worthless

like “real money” or “gold” or “charity”…

None of those things are worthless.

no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

• you get people to invest into something that is essentially worthless

like “real money” or “gold” or “charity”…

None of those things are worthless.

Furious, did you notice the “…” ?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

• you get people to invest into something that is essentially worthless

like “real money” or “gold” or “charity”…

None of those things are worthless.

no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

Which is why those things are not worthless.

>no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

I wonder if this is (the entirety of the propositions) strictly true as a generalization. I have a hunch it may not be entirely true, all the time.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

None of those things are worthless.

no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

Which is why those things are not worthless.

to me, they are worthless. should I place value on them because another seeks to define the world through a profit margin?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

Which is why those things are not worthless.

to me, they are worthless. should I place value on them because another seeks to define the world through a profit margin?

relieves RiT of burdensome paper money

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

Which is why those things are not worthless.

to me, they are worthless. should I place value on them because another seeks to define the world through a profit margin?

No, you should place value on them because many other people do place value on them, so you can exchange them for things you do place value on.

>>no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

I few minutes further thought is indicating that the entirety of the popositions in the above that lend to a generalization and absolutist position, are, in fact, likely bullshit.

transition said:

>>no material has any more worth than we place on it. value is entirely subjective

I few minutes further thought is indicating that the entirety of the popositions in the above that lend to a generalization and absolutist position, are, in fact, likely bullshit.

Why do you say that? It seems to me that value is subjective by definition.

morrie said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Which is why those things are not worthless.

to me, they are worthless. should I place value on them because another seeks to define the world through a profit margin?

relieves RiT of burdensome paper money

covetousness is exactly the reason it is all worthless to me. You can all compete as much as you want(the result means so much after all). I’ll make plans for enjoying time with my son.

>Why do you say that? It seems to me that value is subjective by definition.

Maybe, maybe not. I’ll give it some further thought.

I am thinking that when a ‘value’ becomes part of a ‘mechanism’, loosely speaking going to examples of all sorts (whatever), whether the mechanism be man made [social field inclusive), or happened upon by nature, that it is not not entirely subjective, that plenty of exceptions exist, but further humans rely on them to some extent, possibly great extent.

transition said:

I am thinking that when a ‘value’ becomes part of a ‘mechanism’, loosely speaking going to examples of all sorts (whatever), whether the mechanism be man made

A Lobbyist And A Senator Walk Into A Restaurant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPiJb0_Uxu4

arcade fire reflektor

currency is ultimately backed up by guns or someone else’s guns

if you won’t accept the currency then they send men with guns around to make sure you accept it

morrie said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Which is why those things are not worthless.

to me, they are worthless. should I place value on them because another seeks to define the world through a profit margin?

relieves RiT of burdensome paper money

Ain’t got no paper money. Even my cash is polymer.

dv said:

morrie said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

to me, they are worthless. should I place value on them because another seeks to define the world through a profit margin?

relieves RiT of burdensome paper money

Ain’t got no paper money. Even my cash is polymer.

And that polymer is much harder to counterfeit than e-money.
And much easier to use for small purchases.

Tamb said:

dv said:

morrie said:

relieves RiT of burdensome paper money

Ain’t got no paper money. Even my cash is polymer.

And that polymer is much harder to counterfeit than e-money.
And much easier to use for small purchases.

e-money (or bitcoin) isn’t physical money, it’s digital, a series of zeros & ones.
Bitcoins are stored on a server in a secure encrypted “wallet”

Gubbermints and central ba nks don’t like it because they can’t control it.
The value of each bitcoin is market valued, it’s value is not controlled directly by central banks/gubbermints.

Aquila said:

Tamb said:

dv said:

Ain’t got no paper money. Even my cash is polymer.

And that polymer is much harder to counterfeit than e-money.
And much easier to use for small purchases.

e-money (or bitcoin) isn’t physical money, it’s digital, a series of zeros & ones.
Bitcoins are stored on a server in a secure encrypted “wallet”

Gubbermints and central ba nks don’t like it because they can’t control it.
The value of each bitcoin is market valued, it’s value is not controlled directly by central banks/gubbermints.

Disliking a huge Ponzi scheme is a perfectly reasonable position for a government.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Aquila said:

Tamb said:

And that polymer is much harder to counterfeit than e-money.
And much easier to use for small purchases.

e-money (or bitcoin) isn’t physical money, it’s digital, a series of zeros & ones.
Bitcoins are stored on a server in a secure encrypted “wallet”

Gubbermints and central ba nks don’t like it because they can’t control it.
The value of each bitcoin is market valued, it’s value is not controlled directly by central banks/gubbermints.

Disliking a huge Ponzi scheme is a perfectly reasonable position for a government.

So is disliking any Ponzi scheme but their own

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Aquila said:

e-money (or bitcoin) isn’t physical money, it’s digital, a series of zeros & ones.
Bitcoins are stored on a server in a secure encrypted “wallet”

Gubbermints and central ba nks don’t like it because they can’t control it.
The value of each bitcoin is market valued, it’s value is not controlled directly by central banks/gubbermints.

Disliking a huge Ponzi scheme is a perfectly reasonable position for a government.

So is disliking any Ponzi scheme but their own

Government controlled currency is not a Ponzi scheme, except in those cases where they have uncontrolled issue of new money leading to excessive inflation.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Disliking a huge Ponzi scheme is a perfectly reasonable position for a government.

So is disliking any Ponzi scheme but their own

Government controlled currency is not a Ponzi scheme, except in those cases where they have uncontrolled issue of new money leading to excessive inflation.

“I am not a crook!”

:p

Riff-in-Thyme said:

“I am not a crook!”

:p

Are you trying to make some point, or did you just want to share the photo?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

“I am not a crook!”

:p

Are you trying to make some point, or did you just want to share the photo?

it ain’t a racquet unless your in on it

;)

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

“I am not a crook!”

:p

Are you trying to make some point, or did you just want to share the photo?

it ain’t a racquet unless your in on it

;)

Ah, good ‘ol President Nixon.
1973 I believe it was, he removed the gold backing of the US dollar.
Henry Kissinger, US secretary of state strikes a deal with the Saudi’s for them to price their oil in US dollars and use the proceeds to buy US treasury bonds.
So was the rise of the petro dollar and the start of one of the greatest gubbermint sanctioned ponzi schemes yet.

Aquila said:

;)

Ah, good ‘ol President Nixon.
1973 I believe it was, he removed the gold backing of the US dollar.
Henry Kissinger, US secretary of state strikes a deal with the Saudi’s for them to price their oil in US dollars and use the proceeds to buy US treasury bonds.
So was the rise of the petro dollar and the start of one of the greatest gubbermint sanctioned ponzi schemes yet.

thank you for making my point :P

I love how the algorithm has built in rarity / scarcity. The more bitcoin you create,the harder it is to create more.

It’s a great mechanism for stopping hyper-inflation in the digital currency

Dropbear said:

I love how the algorithm has built in rarity / scarcity. The more bitcoin you create,the harder it is to create more.

It’s a great mechanism for stopping hyper-inflation in the digital currency

Except that there is nothing to stop anyone else introducing alternative bitcoins.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

I love how the algorithm has built in rarity / scarcity. The more bitcoin you create,the harder it is to create more.

It’s a great mechanism for stopping hyper-inflation in the digital currency

Except that there is nothing to stop anyone else introducing alternative bitcoins.

Then it’s not bitcoin, it’s something else. Just like gold is not silver, and it will have its own level of trust and value

Dropbear said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

I love how the algorithm has built in rarity / scarcity. The more bitcoin you create,the harder it is to create more.

It’s a great mechanism for stopping hyper-inflation in the digital currency

Except that there is nothing to stop anyone else introducing alternative bitcoins.

Then it’s not bitcoin, it’s something else. Just like gold is not silver, and it will have its own level of trust and value

Gold is different to silver because it costs more to dig out of the ground, and it looks different, and it has different physical properties.

How is a bitcoin different to a butcoin, which is produced and sold following exactly the same model?

From Buttcoin: http://buttcoin.org/

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Except that there is nothing to stop anyone else introducing alternative bitcoins.

Then it’s not bitcoin, it’s something else. Just like gold is not silver, and it will have its own level of trust and value

Gold is different to silver because it costs more to dig out of the ground, and it looks different, and it has different physical properties.

How is a bitcoin different to a butcoin, which is produced and sold following exactly the same model?

There is a level of ‘trust’ built around the name ‘bitcoin’ in that it’s the first digital currency to really take off.. so whilst the value is ‘artificial’ (like most currencies really) it’s more likely that a bitcoin will hold its value and be traded more widely, because its the ‘gold standard’ of digital currencies at the moment..

But hey, it’s an experiment, and an interesting one …

The restricted supply seems silly for a currency, I like the increased complexity though.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

I love how the algorithm has built in rarity / scarcity. The more bitcoin you create,the harder it is to create more.

It’s a great mechanism for stopping hyper-inflation in the digital currency

Except that there is nothing to stop anyone else introducing alternative bitcoins.

meet the latest coin

wookiecoin now selling at 1000 Australian dollars per wookie

wookiecoin can only be purchased from wookiemeister

Dropbear said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

Then it’s not bitcoin, it’s something else. Just like gold is not silver, and it will have its own level of trust and value

Gold is different to silver because it costs more to dig out of the ground, and it looks different, and it has different physical properties.

How is a bitcoin different to a butcoin, which is produced and sold following exactly the same model?

There is a level of ‘trust’ built around the name ‘bitcoin’ in that it’s the first digital currency to really take off.. so whilst the value is ‘artificial’ (like most currencies really) it’s more likely that a bitcoin will hold its value and be traded more widely, because its the ‘gold standard’ of digital currencies at the moment..

But hey, it’s an experiment, and an interesting one …

The trust will evaporate when people work out it is just a scam.

It’s people stealing money from the gullible. It’s totally different to currencies which are controlled by a single organisation, and are used as a means of trade rather than in the expectation of making huge windfall gains.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Gold is different to silver because it costs more to dig out of the ground, and it looks different, and it has different physical properties.

How is a bitcoin different to a butcoin, which is produced and sold following exactly the same model?

There is a level of ‘trust’ built around the name ‘bitcoin’ in that it’s the first digital currency to really take off.. so whilst the value is ‘artificial’ (like most currencies really) it’s more likely that a bitcoin will hold its value and be traded more widely, because its the ‘gold standard’ of digital currencies at the moment..

But hey, it’s an experiment, and an interesting one …

The trust will evaporate when people work out it is just a scam.

It’s people stealing money from the gullible. It’s totally different to currencies which are controlled by a single organisation, and are used as a means of trade rather than in the expectation of making huge windfall gains.

Why is it a scam??

Why is it any less ‘phony value’ than the stock-market or fiat currency?

poikilotherm said:

The restricted supply seems silly for a currency, I like the increased complexity though.

Why is it silly? if you can go on producing as many as you like forever then they by nature lose value …

Dropbear said:

poikilotherm said:

The restricted supply seems silly for a currency, I like the increased complexity though.

Why is it silly? if you can go on producing as many as you like forever then they by nature lose value …

Yea. But if the complexity keeps increasing it should maintain a decent value due to difficulty, restricting supply just opens up bubble type behaviour.

Dropbear said:

Why is it a scam??

Why is it any less ‘phony value’ than the stock-market or fiat currency?

The stock market and fiat money pay a dividend over time. Bitcoins are only valued by any expected capital gains which is why it’s value changes so much over time.

‘its

Witty Rejoinder said:

‘its

and ‘ums

Witty Rejoinder said:

Dropbear said:

Why is it a scam??

Why is it any less ‘phony value’ than the stock-market or fiat currency?

The stock market and fiat money pay a dividend over time. Bitcoins are only valued by any expected capital gains which is why it’s value changes so much over time.

captial gain is one aspect.. there is the anonymity aspect as well..

Dropbear said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Dropbear said:

There is a level of ‘trust’ built around the name ‘bitcoin’ in that it’s the first digital currency to really take off.. so whilst the value is ‘artificial’ (like most currencies really) it’s more likely that a bitcoin will hold its value and be traded more widely, because its the ‘gold standard’ of digital currencies at the moment..

But hey, it’s an experiment, and an interesting one …

The trust will evaporate when people work out it is just a scam.

It’s people stealing money from the gullible. It’s totally different to currencies which are controlled by a single organisation, and are used as a means of trade rather than in the expectation of making huge windfall gains.

Why is it a scam??

Why is it any less ‘phony value’ than the stock-market or fiat currency?

The value of stocks on the stock market is related to the profits of the companies (actual or anticipated).

Government controlled currencies are a means of trade, and are controlled to maintain reasonably uniform value. The sole purpose of bitcoins is to extract money from people who think they will be able to extract money from other people.

It’s a pure Ponzi scheme.

The Rev Dodgson said:

The value of stocks on the stock market is related to the profits of the companies (actual or anticipated).

Government controlled currencies are a means of trade, and are controlled to maintain reasonably uniform value. The sole purpose of bitcoins is to extract money from people who think they will be able to extract money from other people.

It’s a pure Ponzi scheme.

No, not quite. There is no “central bitcoin bank” taking a cut of the new coins going into circulation.

Dropbear said:

there is the anonymity aspect as well..

There is that but you would expect the ‘anonymity value’ of bitcoins to be reasonably stable over time. The fact that the bitcoin varies so wildly in value shows it’s mainly speculation about capital gains that drives its market price.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/more-than-a-fad-or-just-a-ponzi-scheme-how-the-world-is-getting-used-to-bitcoin-8904987.html

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#Is_Bitcoin_a_Ponzi_scheme.3F

Economist John Quiggin has claimed that “Bitcoin is perhaps the finest example of a pure bubble”, and that it provides a conclusive refutation of the efficient-market hypothesis (EMH). While other assets used as currency—such as gold, tobacco and U.S. dollars—have value independent of people’s willingness to accept them as payment, Quiggin argues that “in the case of Bitcoin there is no source of value whatsoever” and that:

“Since Bitcoins do not generate any actual earnings, they must appreciate in value to ensure that people are willing to hold them. But an endless appreciation, with no flow of earnings or liquidation value, is precisely the kind of bubble the EMH says can’t happen.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Reception

Tonight I’m thinking: Irish pork sausages, roast roots, steamed greens.

Currency is a mutually shared delusion.

Wouldn’t it be a matter of confidence. Money works because good governments maintain a viable economy where its value is retained or increased. Some governments run poor economies where their monitory value decreases, hence people are reluctant to use that currency.

Bitcoins have no currency value other than what individuals place upon it, hence it will more likely behave in an inconsistent manner, varying wildly up or down, which encourages currency gambling and hence its use will be by the gullible, ignorant and exploiters of the gullible and ignorant.

Sooner or later the gullible will become less so and the ignorant will acquire knowledge. This will likely mean that those who exploit the system will expand, but the money source will decline, most likely bringing the Bitcoin currency down.

Bubblecar said:

Economist John Quiggin has claimed that “Bitcoin is perhaps the finest example of a pure bubble”, and that it provides a conclusive refutation of the efficient-market hypothesis (EMH). While other assets used as currency—such as gold, tobacco and U.S. dollars—have value independent of people’s willingness to accept them as payment, Quiggin argues that “in the case of Bitcoin there is no source of value whatsoever” and that:

“Since Bitcoins do not generate any actual earnings, they must appreciate in value to ensure that people are willing to hold them. But an endless appreciation, with no flow of earnings or liquidation value, is precisely the kind of bubble the EMH says can’t happen.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#Reception

Eh? What value does US dollars have independent of people’s willingness to accept as payment?

The way the US is openly printing money in the name of quantitive easing, the bit coin may well outlast it lol

Anywho said:

Eh? What value does US dollars have independent of people’s willingness to accept as payment?

The way the US is openly printing money in the name of quantitive easing, the bit coin may well outlast it lol

The USD is valued by the supply and demand of government bonds which pay a dividend.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Anywho said:

Eh? What value does US dollars have independent of people’s willingness to accept as payment?

The way the US is openly printing money in the name of quantitive easing, the bit coin may well outlast it lol

The USD is valued by the supply and demand of government bonds which pay a dividend.

Lol, a dividend of ….. US dollars.

If the likes of BRICS start trading in other currencies then the US dollar is dead in he water, they can get away with printing money only because they are the world reserve currency (for now).

The US is proving too irresponsible, china and Russia are diversifying.

But this has nothing to do with the bitcoin

United States authorities have seized an estimated $29 million in digital currency from the alleged owner of an online drugs marketplace.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-26/us-seizes-bitcoins-from-man-linked-to-silk-road/5047832

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/world-s-first-bitcoin-atm-goes-live-in-vancouver-next-week-1.2251820

The bitcoin wiki is a touch economic fail…but hey, should be amusing to watch.

I haven’t really been following the news lately, is there an economic crisis somewhere?

Bitcoin is surging again. Currently over $250

I’m guessing there will be a minor crash in the near future.

Kingy said:

I haven’t really been following the news lately, is there an economic crisis somewhere?

Bitcoin is surging again. Currently over $250

I’m guessing there will be a minor crash in the near future.

Serious crash now that we all now the NSA is watching.

I’ll gladly pay you a bitcoin Tuesday for a hamburger today.

Peak Warming Man said:

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.
I’m going to be rich, richer than a weather girl.
I’ve told others about it, the old guy across the road is going to the bank today, he trusts my advice.

Bitcoin has almost doubled since you posted that, PWM. Sell up now.

Kingy said:

I haven’t really been following the news lately, is there an economic crisis somewhere?

Bitcoin is surging again. Currently over $250

I’m guessing there will be a minor crash in the near future.

SELL SELL SELL!!!!

wookiemeister said:

Kingy said:

I haven’t really been following the news lately, is there an economic crisis somewhere?

Bitcoin is surging again. Currently over $250

I’m guessing there will be a minor crash in the near future.

SELL SELL SELL!!!!

It is a bit like smoking. If you never take it up you never have the problem of trying to get rid of it.

Kingy said:

I haven’t really been following the news lately, is there an economic crisis somewhere?

It’s the Zombie Apocalypse.

http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/fox-news-website-claims-zombies-are-coming-after-internal-error-20131106-2×02x.html

Witty Rejoinder said:

Kingy said:

I haven’t really been following the news lately, is there an economic crisis somewhere?

It’s the Zombie Apocalypse.

http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/fox-news-website-claims-zombies-are-coming-after-internal-error-20131106-2×02x.html

Page not found

Bitcoin has become a currency

Canada opens world’s first bitcoin ATM
Updated: 16:27, Wednesday October 30, 2013

Three young entrepreneurs have opened an automated teller in Canada, saying it’s the world’s first ATM able to exchange bitcoins for any official currency.

The machine, delivered to Vancouver by Robocoin, an American manufacturer, stands against a wall of a popular coffee shops and resembles an ordinary cash ATM.

However, instead of cash transactions it swaps Canadian dollars for bitcoins, the virtual currency of the internet invented in 2008 by an anonymous computer scientist known only by the pseudonym Satoshi Nakamoto.

Customers lined up there on Tuesday to use the ATM, then used their smart phones to buy coffee and muffins at the Waves coffee shop.

The ATM is the world’s first, said co-owner Mitchel Demeter, a local entrepreneur who started trading in bitcoins several years ago, then earlier this year with two partners set up Bitcoiniacs, a Vancouver storefront money exchange.

He and his friends, who were high school students together, said they saw ATMs as a business opportunity.

‘Nobody had an ATM, everyone was buying and selling on websites,’ said Demeter.

Customers use a private key – like a bank PIN number – to access their online account of bitcoins on the ATM.

They withdraw cash equivalents – the conversion rate is currently about one bitcoin for $US200 ($A211) from their bitcoins, or deposit cash bills. The machine transfers the money on the internet via the Canadian VirtEx exchange. Users can then spend their bitcoins with a smartphone, in a similar way to the way interact or credit cards are used, or by transferring the money to purchase goods online.

‘It’s the currency of the internet, as real as any other,’ said Demeter.

The volatile currency is as yet unregulated by any government in the world, and it has had a share of notoriety by being used in the drug trade.

Germany, however, became the first country in the world earlier this year to declare bitcoins a ‘private currency’.

And earlier this month investors were startled when a senior investment officer with giant hedge fund Fortress Investment Group said bitcoins could be used as a cheaper way of transferring money in countries with weak banking systems, reported the Financial Times.

In Vancouver, bitcoins are accepted by some 15 local businesses, from coffee shops to a landscaping

http://www.skynews.com.au/tech/article.aspx?id=919947

in the future everyone will have to have digital shits as well

wookiemeister said:

in the future everyone will have to have digital shits as well

You mean to tell me that you don’t?

As at the time of this post, bitcoins are $357 each.

If only I had bought them at 0.2c 3 years ago.

Did the recent theft of over $1 million worth of bitcoins affect the price of them in the past few days?

Witty Rejoinder said:

Did the recent theft of over $1 million worth of bitcoins affect the price of them in the past few days?

how are bitcoins stolen?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

how are bitcoins stolen?

Hacking computers AFAICT.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Did the recent theft of over $1 million worth of bitcoins affect the price of them in the past few days?

how are bitcoins stolen?

AFAIK bitcoins are identifiable by their unique(and very complex) code. The owner is unidentifiable, so if you can hack a website that stores them, you can steal them. Not unlike stealing someones wallet.

When I posted this thread, I downloaded a Bitminter client, and my graphics card has been crunching numbers most of the time since.

I now own 0.3 bitcoins. That is about $70

It has probably cost that much in electricity to run the computer to do it.

These days there are specially built stupidly super computers(ASIC Miners) that do the same thing and make mine look like an old calculator.

I have no idea what the future holds for these things, but they have 8 numbers after the decimal point.

Moral of the tale: bitcoins are bullshit

Bubblecar said:

Moral of the tale: bitcoins are bullshit

I think the jury is still out.

Doubtless there are people making real money out of bitcoins, while they can. But sooner or later the moral of the tale will prevail.

jparty_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Moral of the tale: bitcoins are bullshit

I think the jury is still out.

Apparently one could up until recently get drugs or assassinations for exchanging them.

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Moral of the tale: bitcoins are bullshit

I think the jury is still out.

I am sure there would be a Wookie Report on the subject to clarify our limited knowledge

Stealth said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Moral of the tale: bitcoins are bullshit

I think the jury is still out.

I am sure there would be a Wookie Report on the subject to clarify our limited knowledge

No. Just no.

I’m still busy trying to figure out a drone close formation algorithm. No further projects to be undertaken till this is resolved.

Stealth said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Moral of the tale: bitcoins are bullshit

I think the jury is still out.

I am sure there would be a Wookie Report on the subject to clarify our limited knowledge

theres always a wookie report

wouldn’t it be easier for you to just give me your money? i’ll give you some kind of “report” telling you how much more they are worth and if you just hang on in there and keep waiting for the value to go up you could make up more money.

wookiemeister said:

wouldn’t it be easier for you to just give me your money? i’ll give you some kind of “report” telling you how much more they are worth and if you just hang on in there and keep waiting for the value to go up you could make up more money.

It might work if I had the stuff you call money.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

wouldn’t it be easier for you to just give me your money? i’ll give you some kind of “report” telling you how much more they are worth and if you just hang on in there and keep waiting for the value to go up you could make up more money.

It might work if I had the stuff you call money.

sell some blood or something

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

wouldn’t it be easier for you to just give me your money? i’ll give you some kind of “report” telling you how much more they are worth and if you just hang on in there and keep waiting for the value to go up you could make up more money.

It might work if I had the stuff you call money.

sell some blood or something

There’s a point, it would be worth heaps to the drug trade.

getting all freemarket on your arse

what if I patrolled the streets looking for a victim, this could be some drunk idiot swinging his fists

I could spray him with a bit of chloroform and then drain a litre of blood out of him and then toddle off to some blood bank and cash in “my blood”

you could harvest them on Saturday evenings or Fridays if you didn’t have prior engagements. whilst they were “out” you could tattoo them somewhere they couldn’t directly see to warn off other freemarketeers that this was “ma prop-arty bee-arch”

you could then franchise the idea to various buyers, they would all be able to work different areas of course or at least the same areas

you might take the super trawler approach and try to get as many as possible in one hit, drain them a bit and then clear off for a few months before the police come sniffing around thanks to the endless complaints.

wookiemeister said:

you might take the super trawler approach and try to get as many as possible in one hit, drain them a bit and then clear off for a few months before the police come sniffing around thanks to the endless complaints.

When opportunity knocks, open the door. When the police come, drain them of all their blood.. the bikies will pay big time for it.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

you might take the super trawler approach and try to get as many as possible in one hit, drain them a bit and then clear off for a few months before the police come sniffing around thanks to the endless complaints.

When opportunity knocks, open the door. When the police come, drain them of all their blood.. the bikies will pay big time for it.

you could drain the bikies too

ok what you do is drain the bikies then whilst they are all sluggish in their club house, you then call the police tell them you have found a bikie mother lode and drain them when they get there too.

you then call the TV crew and tell them that you’ve just seen a police raid on a bikie club house – then you’ve guessed it

i’ll be rich!!

I don’t normally go to the “puds” they sometimes advertise here

ok ok

time to think big

you advertise some big sale where stuff is being sold really cheap, ideally you’d advertise for weeks beforehand, you could see if you do this on some big match day

Bitcoin is spiking. $430 currently.

$500 today.

Kingy said:

>> As of April 2013, Bitcoin’s market capitalization had soared to more than $1 billion<<

This is the reason that I have began to take it seriously.

As of this post $6.7 billion.

Kingy said:

Kingy said:

>> As of April 2013, Bitcoin’s market capitalization had soared to more than $1 billion<<

This is the reason that I have began to take it seriously.

As of this post $6.7 billion.

Chump change for a ‘currency’.

$802

The Sydney pub the Old Fitzroy Hotel now accepts Bitcoins.

Now $900 each.

Kingy said:

The Sydney pub the Old Fitzroy Hotel now accepts Bitcoins.

Now $900 each.

Seems like tulips…

Someone knows their history…

Kingy said:

The Sydney pub the Old Fitzroy Hotel now accepts Bitcoins.

Now $900 each.

Who spends $900 at a pub?

Rule 303 said:

Kingy said:

The Sydney pub the Old Fitzroy Hotel now accepts Bitcoins.

Now $900 each.

Who spends $900 at a pub?

Weather girls?

Rule 303 said:

Kingy said:

The Sydney pub the Old Fitzroy Hotel now accepts Bitcoins.

Now $900 each.

Who spends $900 at a pub?

You havnt tried to buy a drink in Brisneyland

So which country is going to do the responsible thing and prosecute all the bitcoin people as scamsters?

Safe as houses…

$1123

The Rev Dodgson said:

So which country is going to do the responsible thing and prosecute all the bitcoin people as scamsters?

Maybe the Rev should do some research into bitcoin.

Kingy said:

$1123

Sounds too good to be true.

Kingy said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So which country is going to do the responsible thing and prosecute all the bitcoin people as scamsters?

Maybe the Rev should do some research into bitcoin.

Some should check their history

http://www.newstatesman.com/future-proof/2013/12/theres-%C2%A360m-bitcoin-heist-going-down-right-now-and-you-can-watch-real-time

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2014/02/24/once-mighty-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-is-offline-likely-dead/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/us-bitcoin-mtgox-bankruptcy-idUSBREA1R0FX20140228

Safe as bro, screw the gubmints

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/04/bitcoin-bank-flexcoin-closes-after-hack-attack

poikilotherm said:

Safe as bro, screw the gubmints

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/04/bitcoin-bank-flexcoin-closes-after-hack-attack

Kingy is probably living in a park now.

He should go to a place where he can get himself clean and have a good meal and talk to nice chaps dressed as Indians and policemen.

Now US$2500+ and still rising. Bitcoins have now multplied 20 times since my original post here. Your $100 investment would now be $2000.

I still have my 0.25btc in my backup bitcoin wallet :)

Kingy said:

Now US$2500+ and still rising. Bitcoins have now multplied 20 times since my original post here. Your $100 investment would now be $2000.

I still have my 0.25btc in my backup bitcoin wallet :)

I heard bitcoin was dodgy.

What are your thought on it?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Kingy said:

Now US$2500+ and still rising. Bitcoins have now multplied 20 times since my original post here. Your $100 investment would now be $2000.

I still have my 0.25btc in my backup bitcoin wallet :)

I heard bitcoin was dodgy.

What are your thought on it?

It’s a Ponzi scheme with zero underlying value. For every individual who makes a large fortune, there will be many more who lose a small fortune, and many more who lose less than a fortune (but in some cases more than they can afford to lose).

Tau.Neutrino said:

Kingy said:

Now US$2500+ and still rising. Bitcoins have now multplied 20 times since my original post here. Your $100 investment would now be $2000.

I still have my 0.25btc in my backup bitcoin wallet :)

I heard bitcoin was dodgy.

What are your thought on it?

I wasn’t sure initially, but it’s now been about 7 years and it’s still going strong. There are many places that accept it as payment, and many banks now do too.

It is a way of payment that can’t be controlled by governments, which seems to be one of the reasons that it is used for some dodgy deals, but normal currency is used for dodgy deals too.

I mined my btc before it became too difficult, so it didn’t cost me anything. It isn’t a pyramid scheme, the coins are getting harder to mine, so they are getting more valuable.

Kingy said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Kingy said:

Now US$2500+ and still rising. Bitcoins have now multplied 20 times since my original post here. Your $100 investment would now be $2000.

I still have my 0.25btc in my backup bitcoin wallet :)

I heard bitcoin was dodgy.

What are your thought on it?

I wasn’t sure initially, but it’s now been about 7 years and it’s still going strong. There are many places that accept it as payment, and many banks now do too.

It is a way of payment that can’t be controlled by governments, which seems to be one of the reasons that it is used for some dodgy deals, but normal currency is used for dodgy deals too.

I mined my btc before it became too difficult, so it didn’t cost me anything. It isn’t a pyramid scheme, the coins are getting harder to mine, so they are getting more valuable.

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Kingy said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I heard bitcoin was dodgy.

What are your thought on it?

I wasn’t sure initially, but it’s now been about 7 years and it’s still going strong. There are many places that accept it as payment, and many banks now do too.

It is a way of payment that can’t be controlled by governments, which seems to be one of the reasons that it is used for some dodgy deals, but normal currency is used for dodgy deals too.

I mined my btc before it became too difficult, so it didn’t cost me anything. It isn’t a pyramid scheme, the coins are getting harder to mine, so they are getting more valuable.

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

By that logic, every currency is as well.

The piece of plastic $10 note in your wallet is a piece of plastic with no intrinsic value.

Kingy said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Kingy said:

I wasn’t sure initially, but it’s now been about 7 years and it’s still going strong. There are many places that accept it as payment, and many banks now do too.

It is a way of payment that can’t be controlled by governments, which seems to be one of the reasons that it is used for some dodgy deals, but normal currency is used for dodgy deals too.

I mined my btc before it became too difficult, so it didn’t cost me anything. It isn’t a pyramid scheme, the coins are getting harder to mine, so they are getting more valuable.

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

By that logic, every currency is as well.

The piece of plastic $10 note in your wallet is a piece of plastic with no intrinsic value.

No the logic is different in two important ways:

1. People give and receive money in return for goods and services. Where money is printed with no relation to goods and services it does rapidly decline in value, but in most economies this is controlled.

2. People use money as a transaction medium, not as an investment in itself. If people want to make money out of money they either invest it in something that does increase in inherent value, or lend it to somebody else to invest. Having a currency as a transaction medium and as an investment that will increase in value can’t work in the long term because money by itself does not produce anything of value.

The Rev Dodgson said:

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

No money has any intrinsic value, Rev. Money has value by fiat — that is, it has what value we assign to it. Bitcoin has what value we assign to it. This has been explained to you before.

btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

No money has any intrinsic value, Rev. Money has value by fiat — that is, it has what value we assign to it. Bitcoin has what value we assign to it. This has been explained to you before.

Except the gubmint backs the fiat in the case of currency unlike bitcoin.

btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

No money has any intrinsic value, Rev. Money has value by fiat — that is, it has what value we assign to it. Bitcoin has what value we assign to it. This has been explained to you before.

The only value Bitcoin has is what people are prepared to do or pay for it, thus a hugely varying worth.

btm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

It is a pyramid scheme. It doesn’t matter how hard the coins are to mine, they have no intrinsic value.

Everybody who makes a dollar is funded by someone who loses a dollar.

No money has any intrinsic value, Rev. Money has value by fiat — that is, it has what value we assign to it. Bitcoin has what value we assign to it. This has been explained to you before.

And I have explained why that is a non-argument before. Do I need to detail where, or can you look a few posts back for yourself?

According to a news report a few days ago. Bitcoin has competitors who are currently performing much better.

I wouldn’t touch Bitcoin or its competitors with Poseidon Share, or a share in the South Sea Bubble.

Bitcoin’s use as a black market currency presumably has some value to those who use it so this could assign some real tangible value to it.

However one would expect that competition in the crypto currency market would keep this value low.

1 Bitcoin equals
3892.62 Australian Dollar

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
3892.62 Australian Dollar

So, Kingy, did you make a fortune?

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
3892.62 Australian Dollar

So, Kingy, did you make a fortune?

I mined one quarter of a bitcoin for free. I wish I had bought a few more for an investment.

I pity the poor fucker that paid 20,000 bitcoins for a pizza.

Peak Warming Man said:

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.

Currently approaching $5000/bitcoin.

PWM is going to have weathergirls grovelling all over him.

1 bitcoin is now worth 377995.64 Albanian Leks.

Higher Love – Lilly Winwood with Steve Winwood

Kingy said:

Peak Warming Man said:

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.

Currently approaching $5000/bitcoin.

PWM is going to have weathergirls grovelling all over him.

I do actually find that scary.

Tidings, scary fucking tidings.

Invest in non-flammable cladding companies.

AwesomeO said:

Invest in non-flammable cladding companies.

That’s quite possibly the wisest thing you have ever said :)

(Only half kidding)

DV should change his payment system to bitcoin.

Peak Warming Man said:

DV should change his payment system to bitcoin.

the pool shop attached to the pump business I worked for dealt with bitcoins

The bitcoin blockchain has been forked.

stumpy_seahorse said:

Peak Warming Man said:

DV should change his payment system to bitcoin.

the pool shop attached to the pump business I worked for dealt with bitcoins

The thing I don’t get about using bitcoin as cash is:
If you think that bitcoin is an investment that will over time head ever upward (but with short term ups and downs), why the heck would you use it as cash?
And if you don’t think that, why the heck would you still have any?

The Rev Dodgson said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Peak Warming Man said:

DV should change his payment system to bitcoin.

the pool shop attached to the pump business I worked for dealt with bitcoins

The thing I don’t get about using bitcoin as cash is:
If you think that bitcoin is an investment that will over time head ever upward (but with short term ups and downs), why the heck would you use it as cash?
And if you don’t think that, why the heck would you still have any?

Hamish and andy have 2, approx pricee around the $7K mark (paid $900 for the 2), but have lost their password to access them.
Apparently that means you’ve done your cash, no way of retrieving it

The Rev Dodgson said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Peak Warming Man said:

DV should change his payment system to bitcoin.

the pool shop attached to the pump business I worked for dealt with bitcoins

The thing I don’t get about using bitcoin as cash is:
If you think that bitcoin is an investment that will over time head ever upward (but with short term ups and downs), why the heck would you use it as cash?
And if you don’t think that, why the heck would you still have any?

It’s used to launder money and for other illicit purchases

Speculation or you’re criminal…

poikilotherm said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

the pool shop attached to the pump business I worked for dealt with bitcoins

The thing I don’t get about using bitcoin as cash is:
If you think that bitcoin is an investment that will over time head ever upward (but with short term ups and downs), why the heck would you use it as cash?
And if you don’t think that, why the heck would you still have any?

It’s used to launder money and for other illicit purchases

Speculation or you’re criminal…

I guess catering for that market makes a sort of sense if you are in the irrigation pump business.

How are your pearly whites Rev?

https://dentacoin.com

Phil_C said:

How are your pearly whites Rev?

Bloody awful, but near-infinitely better than yesterday.

So do you have the inside of my mouth bugged, or did I post here yesterday and I’ve forgotten about it.

Phil_C said:

https://dentacoin.com

Or was it just coincidence?

Anyway, I don’t get where these dentacoin people think the money is going to come from, if not the receivers of the treatment, their insurers, or tax revenue.

I may be wrong, but my impression is that Bitcoin mining mostly involves wasting electricity on pointless digital calculations. Bitcoin mining equipment seems to need a lot of cooling, which obviously means that a lot of the energy being used is converted in to heat, which is also nothing more than a waste.

If the above is accurate, in a world where we are trying to reduce our energy consumption, I find the very idea of Bitcoin mining to be objectionable.

esselte said:

I may be wrong, but my impression is that Bitcoin mining mostly involves wasting electricity on pointless digital calculations. Bitcoin mining equipment seems to need a lot of cooling, which obviously means that a lot of the energy being used is converted in to heat, which is also nothing more than a waste.

If the above is accurate, in a world where we are trying to reduce our energy consumption, I find the very idea of Bitcoin mining to be objectionable.

I can’t tell whether you are being ironic

$6000

Kingy said:

$6000

Did you actually invest in any, Kingy?

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

$6000

Did you actually invest in any, Kingy?

I didn’t have any money to invest. I was then, and am still now, kind of broke. I did however at the time, have some computer cycles to spare and mined some of these things. I still own one quarter of one. I am not likely to retire on it, but some people who may have followed my advice and bought some, may actually be very rich now.

Kingy said:

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

$6000

Did you actually invest in any, Kingy?

I didn’t have any money to invest. I was then, and am still now, kind of broke. I did however at the time, have some computer cycles to spare and mined some of these things. I still own one quarter of one. I am not likely to retire on it, but some people who may have followed my advice and bought some, may actually be very rich now.

If they can actually turn it into real folding stuff.

roughbarked said:

Kingy said:

sibeen said:

Did you actually invest in any, Kingy?

I didn’t have any money to invest. I was then, and am still now, kind of broke. I did however at the time, have some computer cycles to spare and mined some of these things. I still own one quarter of one. I am not likely to retire on it, but some people who may have followed my advice and bought some, may actually be very rich now.

If they can actually turn it into real folding stuff.

That’s the problem. They can of course turn it into real folding stuff at any time, but when to do it? Of those people who are aiming to sell at some unspecified peak, almost all of them will miss the real peak and watch as the price continues to plummet way below its current price.

For any investment in an unproductive asset, for every person who makes a huge profit, there will be someone making a huge loss, or more likely many making a small to moderate loss.

The same applies to antiques and art works and the like, but with bitcoin there is the added problem that the “asset” has zero underlying value, so there is no reason why the price should not end up at zero, or close to it.

That’s not to say that you cant make money out of bitcoin. Depending on when you buy, it might be a better bet than a lottery or playing the pokies, but that’s all it is.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Kingy said:

I didn’t have any money to invest. I was then, and am still now, kind of broke. I did however at the time, have some computer cycles to spare and mined some of these things. I still own one quarter of one. I am not likely to retire on it, but some people who may have followed my advice and bought some, may actually be very rich now.

If they can actually turn it into real folding stuff.

That’s the problem. They can of course turn it into real folding stuff at any time, but when to do it? Of those people who are aiming to sell at some unspecified peak, almost all of them will miss the real peak and watch as the price continues to plummet way below its current price.

For any investment in an unproductive asset, for every person who makes a huge profit, there will be someone making a huge loss, or more likely many making a small to moderate loss.

The same applies to antiques and art works and the like, but with bitcoin there is the added problem that the “asset” has zero underlying value, so there is no reason why the price should not end up at zero, or close to it.

That’s not to say that you cant make money out of bitcoin. Depending on when you buy, it might be a better bet than a lottery or playing the pokies, but that’s all it is.

It’s certainly very interesting

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

If they can actually turn it into real folding stuff.

That’s the problem. They can of course turn it into real folding stuff at any time, but when to do it? Of those people who are aiming to sell at some unspecified peak, almost all of them will miss the real peak and watch as the price continues to plummet way below its current price.

For any investment in an unproductive asset, for every person who makes a huge profit, there will be someone making a huge loss, or more likely many making a small to moderate loss.

The same applies to antiques and art works and the like, but with bitcoin there is the added problem that the “asset” has zero underlying value, so there is no reason why the price should not end up at zero, or close to it.

That’s not to say that you cant make money out of bitcoin. Depending on when you buy, it might be a better bet than a lottery or playing the pokies, but that’s all it is.

It’s certainly very interesting

I suppose so, but suppose I had decided to take a punt in the early days, and set myself a firm target of selling at $100, which would have seemed optimistic, but not totally impossible. I’d have made some money, but I’d now be kicking myself for selling out way too early, the pain of which would exceed the benefit of the winnings.

Logically, I should be kicking myself even harder for not making the bet at all, but that’s not how the human brain works. As I didn’t make the bet, I don’t see it as a loss, so I’m actually better off for not having won a bet.

It is interesting to compare it to national fiat currencies. These, too, are essentially underpinned by nothing except for national monetary policies that tend to be responsive to other economic metrics. Bitcoin too has a kind of monetary policy but it is non-responsive: they already announced how many they are going to release, and when, forever.

https://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf

>>Hamish and andy have 2, approx pricee around the $7K mark (paid $900 for the 2), but have lost their password to access them.
Apparently that means you’ve done your cash, no way of retrieving it

So it’s really dodgy.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>Hamish and andy have 2, approx pricee around the $7K mark (paid $900 for the 2), but have lost their password to access them.
Apparently that means you’ve done your cash, no way of retrieving it

So it’s really dodgy.

The password habits of others baffle me.

If I wanted to launder some dru……………I mean…………………if I opened an account with the CBA and then lost the password they’d fix it……………I don’t mean fix I mean they’d sort it out.
I wouldn’t lose my money.
But if you want to play with shonky invisible slippery oilygarchs and you lose your password you’re fucked like Hamish and lower case andy.

I’m reminded of a couple I saw on Clean House or one of those shows. They were trying to find things that could go in a garage sale to make room (and some money).
The lady had spent tens of thousands of dollars on Beanie Babies, which had since lost 90% of their value. She had hundreds of the fucking things. She didn’t want to part with them because she thought their value would go up eventually.

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

Kingy said:

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

Did you end up getting any?

Kingy said:

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

What about the dead people.

runs away.

party_pants said:

Kingy said:

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

Did you end up getting any?

I mined them when they were easier to get. I have one quarter of one, it cost me nothing except for the electricity to power the computer.

bitcoin director found dead = 10,900,000 results

bitcoin related deaths = About 1,170,000 results

Kingy said:

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

—

So how rich are you now?

How is Bitcoin different?

Kingy said:

I have one quarter of one, it cost me nothing except for the electricity to power the computer.

ah well, better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick :)

tauto said:

Kingy said:

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

—

So how rich are you now?

$2500 assuming that I sell now.

Kingy said:

tauto said:

Kingy said:

Now $10,000 per bitcoin. Those who got in early have paid off their mortgage, and are doing ok.

—

So how rich are you now?

$2500 assuming that I sell now.

—-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDwCMxPwJ_4

Just about to hit $15,000.

Kingy said:

Just about to hit $15,000.

Do you need to find a buyer, or is there are place you can cash them in for conventional money?

PermeateFree said:

Kingy said:

Just about to hit $15,000.

Do you need to find a buyer, or is there are place you can cash them in for conventional money?

https://bitcoin.com.au/

Kingy said:

PermeateFree said:

Kingy said:

Just about to hit $15,000.

Do you need to find a buyer, or is there are place you can cash them in for conventional money?

https://bitcoin.com.au/

Have you tried to sell any? I have been through their terms and conditions and it is all about selling you bitcoins, not the other way around. The only part about them buying the bitcoin is as follows:
3.7 We confirm and warrant that we do not act as agent for any bitcoin exchange or bitcoin seller or accept any commission or other form or remuneration from any bitcoin exchange or bitcoin seller.

Which seems to imply they are not very interested in that part of bitcoin.

Kingy said:

PermeateFree said:

Kingy said:

Just about to hit $15,000.

Do you need to find a buyer, or is there are place you can cash them in for conventional money?

https://bitcoin.com.au/

That is not like a bank where you can deposit bitcoins and get money in return. On the surface it sounds like an unregulated stock exchange where there is a seller wanting a certain price and a buyer willing to pay that price, but you still need to find a buyer.

It is possible that the above organisation is just someone who bought a considerable number of bitcoins when they were very cheap and is now just selling them off at high prices that they have contrived.

It could also be a money laundering setup where money made from crime is used to buy bitcoin, which then become legitimate money.

I would doubt that there are any regulations governing bitcoin, so you very much put your funds on the line, which maybe legitimate, or just a smart way of some people making a lot of money.

Just about to hit Aus $20,000.

I personally think that this bubble is about to burst, and it will go back down to around Aus $5000.

There are a few nerds that have just paid off their mortgage, and have invested in something else, but I still have my one quarter of a bitcoin that I “mined” using just my computer and the electricity that it would have used anyway.

But, as a science nerd, I am still using my spare computer cycles to search for aliens via SETI.

Kingy said:

But, as a science nerd, I am still using my spare computer cycles to search for aliens via SETI.

Really? The computer I did that on has been up in the shed for at least two decades or more.

Getting close to Aus$25000.

• Getting close to Aus$25000.

Yeah, its looking like a nice bubble…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2017/12/16/why-i-would-bet-against-bitcoin/#3695ead67fe8

I hadn’t been taking a lot of notice. This one is interesting.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/investing/fees-fomo-and-fine-print-i-bought-300-worth-of-bitcoin-and-immediately-regretted-it/news-story/1f8c284441db52bf609383b362eaa2be

buffy said:

I hadn’t been taking a lot of notice. This one is interesting.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/investing/fees-fomo-and-fine-print-i-bought-300-worth-of-bitcoin-and-immediately-regretted-it/news-story/1f8c284441db52bf609383b362eaa2be

OK, so I knew it was just a Ponzi scheme with a large negative underlying value.

Now I know it’s worse than that.

How come most reports still write about it as though it wasn’t a scam?

If anyone is still interested, bitcoin is on the way back up. $8700 now.

Kingy said:

If anyone is still interested, bitcoin is on the way back up. $8700 now.

Do we have many drug dealers here?

captain_spalding said:

Kingy said:

If anyone is still interested, bitcoin is on the way back up. $8700 now.

Do we have many drug dealers here?

Drug dealers would be too busy to be wasting time in here.

captain_spalding said:

Kingy said:

If anyone is still interested, bitcoin is on the way back up. $8700 now.

Do we have many drug dealers here?

Be fair c_s, it’s not just drug dealers who use bitcoin.

There’s all those Internet scammers as well.

How come people only talk about bitcoin when its going up?

Kingy said:

If you have ~$100 to spare, buy a bitcoin.

Make sure that it is spare money though.

Quite possibly the best investment that you will make.

$37,000 today.

Buy Buy Buy

SCIENCE said:

Buy Buy Buy

Absolutely.

Someone’s got to provide the cash for the small number of people who will make big profits.

1 Bitcoin equals
53,105.72 Australian Dollar

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
53,105.72 Australian Dollar

Yes, but it is a game of musical chairs.

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
53,105.72 Australian Dollar

Yes, but it is a game of musical chairs.

On the Titanic?

Witty Rejoinder said:

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
53,105.72 Australian Dollar

Yes, but it is a game of musical chairs.

On the Titanic?

If you consider that those who made a lifeboat and got picked up as a winner, then yes :P

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
53,105.72 Australian Dollar

Yes, but it is a game of musical chairs.

Some serious hedge fund managers have recently started using it as a wealth storage option. This has made it double in two weeks.

I never expected it to go over $1000, but there is some talk now of potential for $800,000/btc

I thought the original intention of Bitcoin was to be an everyday transnational currency. Not a tulip bubble.

party_pants said:

I thought the original intention of Bitcoin was to be an everyday transnational currency. Not a tulip bubble.

Pyramids are great…

Witty Rejoinder said:

sibeen said:

Kingy said:

1 Bitcoin equals
53,105.72 Australian Dollar

Yes, but it is a game of musical chairs.

On the Titanic?

SELL SELL SELL

party_pants said:

I thought the original intention of Bitcoin was to be an everyday transnational currency. Not a tulip bubble.

We still blame you Dutch fuckers for that, BTW.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

I thought the original intention of Bitcoin was to be an everyday transnational currency. Not a tulip bubble.

We still blame you Dutch fuckers for that, BTW.

My family were German back then, didn’t become Dutch until the Napoleonic wars. On my Dad’s side anyway. Not sure about Mum’s side. Southern Dutch/Flemish ancestry.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

I thought the original intention of Bitcoin was to be an everyday transnational currency. Not a tulip bubble.

We still blame you Dutch fuckers for that, BTW.

My family were German back then, didn’t become Dutch until the Napoleonic wars. On my Dad’s side anyway. Not sure about Mum’s side. Southern Dutch/Flemish ancestry.

My Irish relatives were living it large. Two spinnets of gruel a week and an issue of pork speckle once a month; living it large, and then the bottom drops out of the tulip market and they were back to abject poverty. Never trusted you ‘Eoropean’ types since.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

We still blame you Dutch fuckers for that, BTW.

My family were German back then, didn’t become Dutch until the Napoleonic wars. On my Dad’s side anyway. Not sure about Mum’s side. Southern Dutch/Flemish ancestry.

My Irish relatives were living it large. Two spinnets of gruel a week and an issue of pork speckle once a month; living it large, and then the bottom drops out of the tulip market and they were back to abject poverty. Never trusted you ‘Eoropean’ types since.

They would’ve recouped all of their money in the South Seas project a few years later.

Kingy said:

If you have ~$100 to spare, buy a bitcoin.

Make sure that it is spare money though.

Quite possibly the best investment that you will make.

Currently $73,000

Kingy said:

Kingy said:

If you have ~$100 to spare, buy a bitcoin.

Make sure that it is spare money though.

Quite possibly the best investment that you will make.

Currently $73,000

You total or for one coin?

roughbarked said:

Kingy said:

Kingy said:

If you have ~$100 to spare, buy a bitcoin.

Make sure that it is spare money though.

Quite possibly the best investment that you will make.

Currently $73,000

You total or for one coin?

$73,000 for one bitcoin.
$1,254,390,283,785 for all bitcoins.

Elon Musk bought $1.5b worth last week which gave the price a surge.

Kingy said:

roughbarked said:

Kingy said:

Currently $73,000

You total or for one coin?

$73,000 for one bitcoin.
$1,254,390,283,785 for all bitcoins.

Elon Musk bought $1.5b worth last week which gave the price a surge.

How many bitcoins did you end up purchasing?

Michael V said:

Kingy said:

roughbarked said:

You total or for one coin?

$73,000 for one bitcoin.
$1,254,390,283,785 for all bitcoins.

Elon Musk bought $1.5b worth last week which gave the price a surge.

How many bitcoins did you end up purchasing?

Not enough. I would have had to buy them on credit card which I wouldn’t do. In hindsight, I would have maxxed the fucker out.

It seems to me that this has outgrown its original purpose, which was to become a digital trading currency for transactions. Now it’s become one of those fads like growing tulips on the South See Islands.

party_pants said:

It seems to me that this has outgrown its original purpose, which was to become a digital trading currency for transactions. Now it’s become one of those fads like growing tulips on the South See Islands.

I’ve sean some of them.

party_pants said:

It seems to me that this has outgrown its original purpose, which was to become a digital trading currency for transactions. Now it’s become one of those fads like growing tulips on the South See Islands.

Who knows what its original purpose was? The price has always been highly volatile.

I happened to look it up on Wikipedia the other day, and apparently the experts say it isn’t a Ponzi scheme because it isn’t promoted as a means of making a huge profit from a modest investment.

All I can say is, it seems the experts don’t use the Internet.

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

It seems to me that this has outgrown its original purpose, which was to become a digital trading currency for transactions. Now it’s become one of those fads like growing tulips on the South See Islands.

Who knows what its original purpose was? The price has always been highly volatile.

I happened to look it up on Wikipedia the other day, and apparently the experts say it isn’t a Ponzi scheme because it isn’t promoted as a means of making a huge profit from a modest investment.

All I can say is, it seems the experts don’t use the Internet.

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

A bubble is similar but different. It lures people in to spend money on some asset to be held as an investment, to be sold at a later time when the price goes up. In some case the underlying investment principle may be sound, like housing in an economy that welcomes large numbers of new immigrants. The asset may or may not be turned to a useful purpose during the waiting period.

Hindsight is a terrible gambling or investment strategy

party_pants said:

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

But that’s exactly how Bitcoin works.

The only source of money is new investors.

The only way anyone can make any money is by someone else losing that money.

This is hidden (for some period of time) by new investors bringing in more money that is being paid out.

The key factor is that the underlying value of the “investment” is precisely zero.

There is no need for a Ponzi scheme to have clearly defined cycles.

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

But that’s exactly how Bitcoin works.

The only source of money is new investors.

The only way anyone can make any money is by someone else losing that money.

This is hidden (for some period of time) by new investors bringing in more money that is being paid out.

The key factor is that the underlying value of the “investment” is precisely zero.

There is no need for a Ponzi scheme to have clearly defined cycles.

Call me a nerd for being a stickler to details, but there is a difference between a Ponzi scheme and an asset bubble. The Ponzi scheme does work in cycles, the investors get paid out their money plus a return after a set period. Once it is up and running people who get their return are out of the scheme and carry no further risk; unless they choose to re-invest. With an asset bubble, the original investors still carry the risk that they might lose if they get the timing wrong on when they decide to sell the asset and take the cash.

party_pants said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

It seems to me that this has outgrown its original purpose, which was to become a digital trading currency for transactions. Now it’s become one of those fads like growing tulips on the South See Islands.

Who knows what its original purpose was? The price has always been highly volatile.

I happened to look it up on Wikipedia the other day, and apparently the experts say it isn’t a Ponzi scheme because it isn’t promoted as a means of making a huge profit from a modest investment.

All I can say is, it seems the experts don’t use the Internet.

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

A bubble is similar but different. It lures people in to spend money on some asset to be held as an investment, to be sold at a later time when the price goes up. In some case the underlying investment principle may be sound, like housing in an economy that welcomes large numbers of new immigrants. The asset may or may not be turned to a useful purpose during the waiting period.

They say it costs the amount of electricity used in NZ a day to mint a bitcoin, that would probably be north of 73k, but anyway I don’t believe them.
I think the whole thing is nuts, it has no underlying value, it’s fake money, PWM will have no truck with it.

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Who knows what its original purpose was? The price has always been highly volatile.

I happened to look it up on Wikipedia the other day, and apparently the experts say it isn’t a Ponzi scheme because it isn’t promoted as a means of making a huge profit from a modest investment.

All I can say is, it seems the experts don’t use the Internet.

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

A bubble is similar but different. It lures people in to spend money on some asset to be held as an investment, to be sold at a later time when the price goes up. In some case the underlying investment principle may be sound, like housing in an economy that welcomes large numbers of new immigrants. The asset may or may not be turned to a useful purpose during the waiting period.

They say it costs the amount of electricity used in NZ a day to mint a bitcoin, that would probably be north of 73k, but anyway I don’t believe them.
I think the whole thing is nuts, it has no underlying value, it’s fake money, PWM will have no truck with it.

Hmmm…

“From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 301399
Subject: re: Bitcoin

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.
I’m going to be rich, richer than a weather girl.”

Not bad, a 7,300% return on half your super.

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Who knows what its original purpose was? The price has always been highly volatile.

I happened to look it up on Wikipedia the other day, and apparently the experts say it isn’t a Ponzi scheme because it isn’t promoted as a means of making a huge profit from a modest investment.

All I can say is, it seems the experts don’t use the Internet.

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

A bubble is similar but different. It lures people in to spend money on some asset to be held as an investment, to be sold at a later time when the price goes up. In some case the underlying investment principle may be sound, like housing in an economy that welcomes large numbers of new immigrants. The asset may or may not be turned to a useful purpose during the waiting period.

They say it costs the amount of electricity used in NZ a day to mint a bitcoin, that would probably be north of 73k, but anyway I don’t believe them.
I think the whole thing is nuts, it has no underlying value, it’s fake money, PWM will have no truck with it.

shitload of power is used around the world to do with financial exchanges, not an an entirely insignificant contribution to global warming, as you can imagine we need wind power and solar to run all the computers in the world, and it’s a handy thing people have so much electrical equipment, devices and all, people will be able to tune in as the last of the arctic ice melts, watch it as it happens, and feel grandly effectual as the dominant species

party_pants said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

It’s a bubble, but not a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme is something different. It works by always recruiting new investors into the scheme. The money from the new investors is used to repay earlier investors their investment plus a return. The new investors have to wait for the cycle to complete when another round of newer investors are lured in. It keeps going until the scheme runs out of new investors, then it collapses and the last people in lose their money. The money is not used to do anything useful in the meantime.

But that’s exactly how Bitcoin works.

The only source of money is new investors.

The only way anyone can make any money is by someone else losing that money.

This is hidden (for some period of time) by new investors bringing in more money that is being paid out.

The key factor is that the underlying value of the “investment” is precisely zero.

There is no need for a Ponzi scheme to have clearly defined cycles.

Call me a nerd for being a stickler to details, but there is a difference between a Ponzi scheme and an asset bubble. The Ponzi scheme does work in cycles, the investors get paid out their money plus a return after a set period. Once it is up and running people who get their return are out of the scheme and carry no further risk; unless they choose to re-invest. With an asset bubble, the original investors still carry the risk that they might lose if they get the timing wrong on when they decide to sell the asset and take the cash.

Well I could dispute further, but I think we are agreed that it might be a good bet for a few, but it certainly isn’t a sound investment.

Arguably all currencies are a Ponzi scheme since sovereignty is fleeting but we can expect the USD to at least be worth something on a longer scale than cryps.

You mentioned investing $100 way back there so I’d be sitting on $10,000 now which isn’t an insane amount of money. Now if you’d started the thread when it was $0.01 I’d be singing your praises. :-)

Witty Rejoinder said:

You mentioned investing $100 way back there so I’d be sitting on $10,000 now which isn’t an insane amount of money. Now if you’d started the thread when it was $0.01 I’d be singing your praises. :-)

If I’d started mining bitcoin when it was $0.01, I’d invite you all onto my mega yacht for a pud!

Wonders how many bitcoins I will get for my lovely basket of tulip bulbs.

PermeateFree said:

Wonders how many bitcoins I will get for my lovely basket of tulip bulbs.

At the moment a mouse bite off the edge of one.

oh how we laughed

Current Price $80,232.85
Today’s Open: $80,029.71
Vol. 24 Hour: $20,962,530,225
24 Hour High: $80,801.49
24 Hour Low: $73,641.10
Market Cap:$1,474,184,746,659
Supply:17,495,850

I have sold most of my bitcoin that my PC made with spare computer cycles while I was at work, and paid off some of my mortgage. It didn’t cost me anything because my computer was running all day anyway. I have cashed out around $6000.

PWM said that he invested his life savings into it at $100, and it’s now at around $60,000. He must be rolling in cash and weathergirls by now.

I have kept some for trading, but don’t expect any major profits from it anytime soon.

My personal opinion is that it has reached it’s peak until 20 years from now when it may be a historical item.

Do not invest in the stupid NFTs, they are very much for suckers.

Kingy said:

I have sold most of my bitcoin that my PC made with spare computer cycles while I was at work, and paid off some of my mortgage. It didn’t cost me anything because my computer was running all day anyway. I have cashed out around $6000.

PWM said that he invested his life savings into it at $100, and it’s now at around $60,000. He must be rolling in cash and weathergirls by now.

I have kept some for trading, but don’t expect any major profits from it anytime soon.

My personal opinion is that it has reached it’s peak until 20 years from now when it may be a historical item.

Do not invest in the stupid NFTs, they are very much for suckers.

Err……wasn’t me sir.

Peak Warming Man said:

OK, I’ve invested on Kingy’s advice.
I’ve been careful though, I only cashed in half my super and put it into bitcoin.
I’m going to be rich, richer than a weather girl.
I’ve told others about it, the old guy across the road is going to the bank today, he trusts my advice.

If only I had some spare money when I posted this.

surprise

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-06-18/bitcoin-crypto-crash-and-celsius-freeze-affecting-australians/101157578

Central banks around the world increasing interest rates to combat inflation has led to investors pulling out of what are called “risk assets”, or assets with a high degree of private volatility.

“Crypto is the ultimate risk asset, so it’s the first to fall,” Dr Berg said. This has come as a surprise to some. Cryptocurrencies had been promoted in some quarters as a “hedge against inflation”, meaning they would hold or increase in value as inflation went up. It hasn’t worked out that way. “Bitcoin is not an inflation hedge,” Dr Berg said. “As crypto becomes integrated with the economy, it becomes responsive to economy-wide macro shocks.”

The combined market value of all cryptocurrencies is now reportedly less than $US1 trillion ($1.43 trillion), or about a third of its November value. So that’s about $US2 trillion ($2.86 billion) wiped off cryptocurrency in just over half a year.

SCIENCE said:

surprise

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-06-18/bitcoin-crypto-crash-and-celsius-freeze-affecting-australians/101157578

Central banks around the world increasing interest rates to combat inflation has led to investors pulling out of what are called “risk assets”, or assets with a high degree of private volatility.

“Crypto is the ultimate risk asset, so it’s the first to fall,” Dr Berg said. This has come as a surprise to some. Cryptocurrencies had been promoted in some quarters as a “hedge against inflation”, meaning they would hold or increase in value as inflation went up. It hasn’t worked out that way. “Bitcoin is not an inflation hedge,” Dr Berg said. “As crypto becomes integrated with the economy, it becomes responsive to economy-wide macro shocks.”

The combined market value of all cryptocurrencies is now reportedly less than $US1 trillion ($1.43 trillion), or about a third of its November value. So that’s about $US2 trillion ($2.86 billion) wiped off cryptocurrency in just over half a year.

The Aus $ is worth about 700 US$ now?

We should all move to USA so we can be richer than weather girls.

SCIENCE said:

surprise

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-06-18/bitcoin-crypto-crash-and-celsius-freeze-affecting-australians/101157578

Central banks around the world increasing interest rates to combat inflation has led to investors pulling out of what are called “risk assets”, or assets with a high degree of private volatility.

“Crypto is the ultimate risk asset, so it’s the first to fall,” Dr Berg said. This has come as a surprise to some. Cryptocurrencies had been promoted in some quarters as a “hedge against inflation”, meaning they would hold or increase in value as inflation went up. It hasn’t worked out that way. “Bitcoin is not an inflation hedge,” Dr Berg said. “As crypto becomes integrated with the economy, it becomes responsive to economy-wide macro shocks.”

The combined market value of all cryptocurrencies is now reportedly less than $US1 trillion ($1.43 trillion), or about a third of its November value. So that’s about $US2 trillion ($2.86 billion) wiped off cryptocurrency in just over half a year.

I see the pointing to the crypto crash as being caused by inflation, yet of instability of value (bubbles/economic distortions), I would have thought it a considerable contributor, part of the precipitating dynamic

part of the force of global fluid disloyalty for one, wouldn’t be a few anarcho-capaitalists among, sentiments akin, notions that approximate something like that

but maybe more broadly the wheels are falling off globalism, the wheels are falling of the fluid disloyalty

the pandemic response has largely been a failure, to this day and will continue for quite a long time yet

SELL SELL SELL
‘https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-19/bitcoin-crypto-plunges-to-below-20000/101165346’

SCIENCE said:

SELL SELL SELL
‘https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-19/bitcoin-crypto-plunges-to-below-20000/101165346’

The emperor’s new clothes are starting to come apart at the seams…

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

I’m not convinced that finding legal loopholes to steal other people’s money makes it OK.

I don’t think this guy is saying it is okay at all. He is saying that thr fact that this is entirely within the rules is why these rules are garbage.

In that case I agree with him.

maybe but reading the above and the extended despite agreeing with overall concepts advanced we for example disagree with the contention that something within the rules should not be called an attack videre licet

incorrectly being described as “an attack” rather than someone using Code Is Law to their advantage, taking out a loan to control a project and drain it

World’s Biggest Ether Mining Firm Turns Off Servers After Merge
Ethermine launched its own Ethereum staking pool in August
As many as one million people were mining Ether at one point

ByDavid Pan
15 September 2022 at 05:25 GMT+10Updated on15 September 2022 at 21:21 GMT+10

Ethermine, the largest Ethereum mining services provider by computing power, shut down its servers for miners after the blockchain network completed its historic technical upgrade.

The move followed Ethereum’s highly-anticipated software revamp, dubbed the Merge, which shifted the most used blockchain from a proof of work consensus mechanism to proof of stake earlier Thursday. It is no longer possible to mine Ether on the network, since the powerful graphic cards used to validate transaction data are being replaced with investors that stake Ether. The validators will secure the Ethereum blockchain and validate data on the network.

A few days after the Merge, Ethermine will trigger an automatic payout to its miners for any unpaid balances. The company also launched an Ethereum staking pool in August, where Ether holders will be able to deposit their coins and earn yields.

As many as one million people with over $10 billion worth of computer equipment had mined Ether at one point.

Ether mining had developed into a multi-billion dollar industry over the last several years. The activity involved miners competing against each other to be the first to solve mathematic puzzles and earn a reward in the token. Mining pools such as Ethermine aggregated computing power from a group of miners to increase the probability of winning Ether before distributing the rewards among miners. The pools usually charged a fee for providing their services.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-14/world-s-biggest-ether-mining-firm-to-shut-down-after-the-merge