whats the thinking on acupuncture?
I want to stop smoking.
c/t isn’t going to happen.
I can’t take champix.
I found chewy and patches ineffective.
thanks

Cochrane review:

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD000009/acupuncture-and-related-therapies-do-not-appear-to-help-smokers-who-are-trying-to-quit.

It’s a maybe, actually, if you read it.

Click on the abstract, from that link.

c/t?

(Sorry – can’t answer your question – I don’t know how to stop either.)

Hypnotherapy? Would that work?

I meant “Could that work?”

Michael V said:

c/t?

(Sorry – can’t answer your question – I don’t know how to stop either.)

Hypnotherapy? Would that work?

I haven’t had a cigarette in a few months :)

sucks on pipe

:)

Mungbean!

Cochrane for hypnotherapy and smoking:

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD001008/does-hypnotherapy-help-people-who-are-trying-to-stop-smoking

(Might be as good as any other therapies……)

doesn’t seem to have great success Buffy. perhaps it just gives the willpower a psychological boost.,
MV, I’ll try anything. hypnotherapy sounds as good as any other treatment

Michael V said:

Mungbean!

On a serious note. Working from a home office has its upsides, and its downsides. For me, where the office is detached from the house, it means that I can smoke away to my hearts content (sic). It was getting to the stage where I’d hardly have a cigarette out of my mouth – seriously.

I decided to try a pipe out as a way of reducing my intake. It has got to the stage where I haven’t had a ciggie for quite a while. Whilst a pipe is still stuck in mu gob for a fair percentage of the time I stare at a computer, I largely just puff on it, or it is completely out. the amount of smoke going directly to my lungs has been cut down considerably.

That’s good to hear, Mr S.

Yes purple, I am at that stage, too.

I knew someone years ago that gave up heroin by replacing the cravings with exercise. He eventually became an addicted marathon runner…

Could that work for me or you?

Acupuncture sits squarely in the pseudo-science category which includes a vast body of research which indicates that it doesn’t work anything like as claimed, but which has enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that there is something happening worthy of study.

Acupuncture is a placebo. Positive results derived seem likely closely connected to the placebo effect.

Whilst this is a very interesting area to study, it’s important to realize that belief in the efficacy of placebo’s such as acupuncture are very influenced by non-empirical data which forms pleasing patterns to the human mind.

The low down is that acupuncture is bullshit. It doesn’t do what it claims… And in fact it doesn’t do anything which can be reliably quantified.

When it comes to placebos like acupuncture… You might start acupuncture, and you might quit smoking, and you then might swear blind for the rest of your life that acupuncture cured your nicotine addiction. But acupuncture has been well studied and found not to be effective in every single scrutinized scientific study at curing any ailment.

When it comes to placebos like acupuncture… You might start acupuncture, and you might quit smoking, and you then might swear blind for the rest of your life that acupuncture cured your nicotine addiction. But acupuncture has been well studied and found not to be effective in every single scrutinized scientific study at curing any ailment.

When it comes to placebos like acupuncture… You might start acupuncture, and you might quit smoking, and you then might swear blind for the rest of your life that acupuncture cured your nicotine addiction. But acupuncture has been well studied and found not to be effective in every single scrutinized scientific study at curing any ailment.

Had a very badly sprained ankle that took several months of rest, ultra sounds and strapping to come good. A short while later I took myself off to a health retreat where I sprained the same ankle again while playing a ball game of some sort.

I had to be helped off the court with my ankle and went straight into have acupuncture on my ankle, half an hour later I skipped out.

When it comes to quitting smoking give it a go and if it works beauty :)

I found that hynotherapy worked for me, well for a couple of years anyway but it was Zyban that did it in the end but I also guess I was ready to do it.

Good luck Purple, which ever way you do it just keep trying. :)

the only way to stop is in your head. believe me purple that this is the truth. all the “add-ons”, champix, zyban, patches etc, are just tools to convince you that you don’t need to think about it cos these chemicals/methods will do it for you.

if you head isn’t in the right space then you wont succeed.

by all means use these tools, but also say “no”.

Boris said:

the only way to stop is in your head. believe me purple that this is the truth. all the “add-ons”, champix, zyban, patches etc, are just tools to convince you that you don’t need to think about it cos these chemicals/methods will do it for you.

if you head isn’t in the right space then you wont succeed.

by all means use these tools, but also say “no”.

I’d never say never but it is true that one needs to have the right head on.

Spider Lily said:

Had a very badly sprained ankle that took several months of rest, ultra sounds and strapping to come good. A short while later I took myself off to a health retreat where I sprained the same ankle again while playing a ball game of some sort.

I had to be helped off the court with my ankle and went straight into have acupuncture on my ankle, half an hour later I skipped out.

You skipped out half an hour later specifically because of the acupuncture?

esselte said:

Spider Lily said:

Had a very badly sprained ankle that took several months of rest, ultra sounds and strapping to come good. A short while later I took myself off to a health retreat where I sprained the same ankle again while playing a ball game of some sort.

I had to be helped off the court with my ankle and went straight into have acupuncture on my ankle, half an hour later I skipped out.

You skipped out half an hour later specifically because of the acupuncture?

with the aid of an imaginary rope.

esselte said:

Spider Lily said:

Had a very badly sprained ankle that took several months of rest, ultra sounds and strapping to come good. A short while later I took myself off to a health retreat where I sprained the same ankle again while playing a ball game of some sort.

I had to be helped off the court with my ankle and went straight into have acupuncture on my ankle, half an hour later I skipped out.

You skipped out half an hour later specifically because of the acupuncture?

Yes.

Spider Lily said:

esselte said:

Spider Lily said:

Had a very badly sprained ankle that took several months of rest, ultra sounds and strapping to come good. A short while later I took myself off to a health retreat where I sprained the same ankle again while playing a ball game of some sort.

I had to be helped off the court with my ankle and went straight into have acupuncture on my ankle, half an hour later I skipped out.

You skipped out half an hour later specifically because of the acupuncture?

Yes.

I stubbed my toe the other night. The pain was bad. I beat my wife for half an hour and the pain became tolerable in that time.

How do you know that the acupuncture was an effective treatment?

esselte said:

Spider Lily said:

esselte said:

You skipped out half an hour later specifically because of the acupuncture?

Yes.

I stubbed my toe the other night. The pain was bad. I beat my wife for half an hour and the pain became tolerable in that time.

How do you know that the acupuncture was an effective treatment?

You should have seen the mess she made of the accupuncturist.

esselte said:

Spider Lily said:

esselte said:

You skipped out half an hour later specifically because of the acupuncture?

Yes.

I stubbed my toe the other night. The pain was bad. I beat my wife for half an hour and the pain became tolerable in that time.

How do you know that the acupuncture was an effective treatment?

It was the only treatment.

>>> it was the only treatment.

OK, but that doesn’t prove it was an effective treatment. At least, no more effective than me beating my wife.

Seriously, acupuncture is not well supported by evidence as an efficient treatment for anything. Indeed, the evidence that has been gathered indicates strongly that it’s useless, regardless of your experience.

>>> it was the only treatment.

OK, but that doesn’t prove it was an effective treatment. At least, no more effective than me beating my wife.

Seriously, acupuncture is not well supported by evidence as an efficient treatment for anything. Indeed, the evidence that has been gathered indicates strongly that it’s useless, regardless of your experience.

http://www.skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

http://www.skepdic.com/rolfing.html

this works for me and my back but it is because it feels good and loosens up the muscle, or whatever. i don’t go for the woo that comes with it. unfortunately the guy in town who was very good has died.

>. i don’t go for the woo that comes with it.

Are you anti chinese, or what?

on the contrary. i love everyone. especially after a good massage. and breakfast.

If only you could learn to love a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence, then all would be good in the world.

pfffft, i scorn conformity. i am an individual.

has your dog left home so now you only have me to talk to?

The dog is asleep, and the wife has gone to bed.

It is either the dog’s fleas or you.

For some unfathomable reason, I prefer the later.

Boris said:

http://www.skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

That’s a really terrible article, packed full of tricksy language.

The author gets many of the details right, but ultimately he or she is obviously credulous and the article distorts those correct details. For example, whilst the placebo effect is undoubtably an existing psychological phenomenon, the evidence indicates it is not a physiological phenomenon at all.

This linked article is some kind of weird amalgam of facts and assumptions. Much of what is said is true, but the author is interpreting these facts in a strange way based on the fact that they think placebo treatments can be effective.

but ultimately he or she is obviously credulous

really? you must have read a different article.

It may seem obvious to acupuncturists and to millions of their patients that the skeptics are mad, daft, or just being obstinate. To them, it is obvious that acupuncture works and anyone who denies this must have some sort of mental defect. Is it possible that millions of people could be wrong? Well, yes, it is possible for millions of people to be wrong, but I must state up front that those skeptics who say that acupuncture doesn’t work, or that it is not an effective medical treatment for some ailments, are wrong. The evidence from both personal testimony and from scientific studies clearly shows that acupuncture works and is an effective medical treatment for many ailments. The evidence from the scientific studies also shows clearly that sham acupuncture is just as effective as true acupuncture. What is not so clear to some people, but is easily ferreted out from the evidence, is that acupuncture most likely works by classical conditioning and other factors that are often lumped together and referred to as “the placebo effect.” Furthermore, in some cases sham acupuncture works better than other placebos. This does not mean that acupuncture is “all in the head,” however.

clearly shows that his views have science behind them. so he believes the science.

I think different things work for different people, but while you discover what works for you, why not go the harm-minimisation route of electronic cigarettes?

This is a mob Bubblecar has bought gear from, and seemed very impressed with:

http://www.ecigarettechina.com/

I found being confined to a Cardiac / Stroke ward for a couple of weeks was enough to put me off it for life. Witnessing the suffering and humiliation and degradation and anxiety and dependence and all the hopes that will surely go unfulfilled…. You should see ‘em, Purps: The blind Diabetics who can’t go home because there’s no-one there to look after them, the infected chest wounds who would happily die, if only they could avoid coughing just this once, the throat cancers who would rather die than go through another round of Chemo…

I have seen where smoking takes you – It’s fucken awful. I wish you all the strength in the world to resist it.

Spider Lily said:

I had to be helped off the court with my ankle and went straight into have acupuncture on my ankle, half an hour later I skipped out.

Sounds like a very very mild strain. There is no way that magical acupuncture would fix in 30 minutes torn or partially torn ligaments.

Boris said:

but ultimately he or she is obviously credulous

really? you must have read a different article.

The article I read contained the following snippet :

<quote>
It may seem obvious to acupuncturists and to millions of their patients that the skeptics are mad, daft, or just being obstinate. To them, it is obvious that acupuncture works and anyone who denies this must have some sort of mental defect. Is it possible that millions of people could be wrong? Well, yes, it is possible for millions of people to be wrong, but I must state up front that those skeptics who say that acupuncture doesn’t work, or that it is not an effective medical treatment for some ailments, are wrong. The evidence from both personal testimony and from scientific studies clearly shows that acupuncture works and is an effective medical treatment for many ailments. The evidence from the scientific studies also shows clearly that sham acupuncture is just as effective as true acupuncture. What is not so clear to some people, but is easily ferreted out from the evidence, is that acupuncture most likely works by classical conditioning and other factors that are often lumped together and referred to as “the placebo effect.” Furthermore, in some cases sham acupuncture works better than other placebos. This does not mean that acupuncture is “all in the head,” however.</quote>

This paragraph exemplifies the confusion inherent in the article. “Acupuncture is effective.” “Sham acupuncture s just as effective”. “Acupuncture works by conditioning and the placebo effect.” “The evidence from scientific studies…”

Conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence of efficacy, they are variables which good scientific studies control for. The author treats conditioning and placebo effects as results which confirm that acupuncture works. They are not… And it doesn’t :)

Rule 303 said:

=
This is a mob Bubblecar has bought gear from, and seemed very impressed with:

http://www.ecigarettechina.com/
=

Bubblecar quit the e-cigarettes after 5 days.

Conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence of efficacy, they are variables which good scientific studies control for. The author treats conditioning and placebo effects as results which confirm that acupuncture works. They are not… And it doesn’t :)

wtf are you on about?

talk about misreading something.

maybe if the “works” was in quotes it would be understood better.

neomyrtus_ said:

Bubblecar quit the e-cigarettes after 5 days.

Ahhh, interesting. Did he say why?

Rule 303 said:

neomyrtus_ said:

Bubblecar quit the e-cigarettes after 5 days.

Ahhh, interesting. Did he say why?

IIRC – they tasted blah and he might have overdone it.

Rule 303 said:

neomyrtus_ said:

Bubblecar quit the e-cigarettes after 5 days.

Ahhh, interesting. Did he say why?

I think that he answered this in his thread on e-cigarettes.

coughs became an addict again

anyway, good luck purple. This may not be helpful., but the ex-smokers I know (and one whom I married) who quit did it cold turkey after an massive epiphany.

Boris said:

wtf are you on about?

talk about misreading something.

The author states clearly that acupuncture “works”, and that both anecdote and science indicate that it works. This is incorrect in all respects.

They attempt to justify the claim that acupuncture works by the mechanisms of “classical conditioning” and the “placebo effect”.

Classical conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence that a treatment works. They are confounding variables which must be accounted for.

neomyrtus_ said:

coughs became an addict again

You don’t stop being an addict.

Classical conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence that a treatment works.

which is what he says. it is a literary device.

esselte said:

Boris said:

wtf are you on about?

talk about misreading something.

Classical conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence that a treatment works. They are confounding variables which must be accounted for.

… In any analysis of whether a given treatment works or not.

Boris said:

Classical conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence that a treatment works.

which is what he says. it is a literary device.

The article is confusingly muddled. Should I be reading this “Well, yes, it is possible for millions of people to be wrong, but I must state up front that those skeptics who say that acupuncture doesn’t work, or that it is not an effective medical treatment for some ailments, are wrong. The evidence from both personal testimony and from scientific studies clearly shows that acupuncture works and is an effective medical treatment for many ailments.” With a /tic/?

Firstly, and most basically, acupuncture is not a “medical treatment” at all, never mind an effective one.

yes, a tic.

also he is talking about skeptics and the believers, not clinical scientists. which is apparent when he talks about sham acupuncture sometimes being better than real acupuncture. that should make it obvious that he doesn’t think it works.

At least with Acupuncture, you can be moderately sure it’s not going to cause harm. Most of the crap that’s out there on the market is so completely un-researched it’s as likely to cause disease as treat it.

One of Mrs. Rule’s friends brought us a gift of a jar of Black Salve a couple of weeks ago – If that shit doesn’t cause Cancer I’ll go ‘He’ for Tiggy.

8-/

Boris said:

yes, a tic.

The justification given for this tic is that people can be conditioned to have physiological reactions to placebos. This is simply not true. Placebos are not nearly as powerful as most people think. The entire purpose of a placebo is that it has no physiological effect. If something does have a physiological effect, it is not a placebo.

I have pins and needles in my left arm. I wonder if acupuncture might help?

I have pins and needles in my left arm. I wonder if acupuncture might help?

—-

Not sure if that’s a joke…
If so, it is a funny one…

I seriously tried to give up smoking once. It was after a health scare and was successful. That was 20 years ago. I went cold turkey and for me, the most important thing was to remind myself that giving up smoking was only as difficult as saying “No” to the next cigarette. Cravings come AND go and the interval between cravings lengthens.

Also, it was important for me to think of myself as a “non-smoker”. A non-smoker does not smoke. Simple. Having just one cigarette is not an option. You are either a smoker or a non-smoker. There is no in between. Allowing yourself to think that you are “attempting to give up smoking” will always lead to failure IMHO.

The comment above about the heroin addict is very interesting. Surely this would need to be one of the most difficult addictions to overcome. To replace it with exercise and to be successful really does highlight that planning to distract ourselves is also a useful option. Although they work for many, medications and patches fail to address the habit and routine that comforts many addicts.

I know little about acupuncture Purps, but think that hypnotherapy could be worth a try. Once you become a non-smoker, may your cravings be few and your distractions great. Good luck.

Conditioning and the placebo effect are not evidence of efficacy, they are variables which good scientific studies control for.

the argument is centred around the idea of “work”, is the writer saying that acupuncture “works”. if the placebo effect and conditioning didn’t “work” then they would not have to be taken into consideration during experiments. this is the whole thrust of the argument as far as i am concerned.

I gave up smoking around the turn of the century with the aid of hypnotherapy, which made the goal a lot more readily achievable. But it’s been less useful, so far, in the struggle against overeating and excessive drinking. To the extent that I was recently toying with the idea of re-introducing a nicotine habit to help overcome the other habits :)

But there’s definitely avoidance going on in that kind of strategy. In essence, my problems are probably simple but powerful. There’s an underlying anxiety that needs to be tamed. There’s no rational reason why I shouldn’t be free, to enjoy a creative interaction with my experience of life in a very fluid and satisfying way. I’m holding out hope that before I kill myself for no sensible reason, I’ll be able to recover the cognitive freedom I presumably once enjoyed, as a young child.

Don’t know if any of this relates to your experience, purple, but regardless – good luck :)