I’m running low on dead horse, and as Rosella is bankrupt I wanted to find out their ‘secret recipe’ by reverse engineering / successive approximation.

Their ingredients list states:

Tomato puree (76%)
Vinegar
Acidity regulator
Salt
Spices

Obviously the thing I need to find out is the quantities of Vinegar and Salt, as well as what spices they add…

I am thinking of purchasing a PH meter ($8 ebay) to help gauge the Vinegar ratio.

Would a TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter also be of use here?

Does anyone else have any advice on how they would approach this challenge? (other than buying the recipe rights from Rosella’s receivers, or espionage!)

bourke said:

Vinegar
Acidity regulator

Obviously the thing I need to find out is the quantities of Vinegar and Salt, as well as what spices they add…

I am thinking of purchasing a PH meter ($8 ebay) to help gauge the Vinegar ratio.

No good, there’s a buffer or something else changing the pH.

why don’t you just try another brand?

OCDC said:

bourke said:

Vinegar
Acidity regulator

Obviously the thing I need to find out is the quantities of Vinegar and Salt, as well as what spices they add…

I am thinking of purchasing a PH meter ($8 ebay) to help gauge the Vinegar ratio.

No good, there’s a buffer or something else changing the pH.

Doesn’t the acidity regulator just mean they level off any variations in the Vinegar’s PH?

E.g. they add the same quantity of Vinegar – but the PH of the tomatoes probably varies depending on season/produce etc…

So doesn’t the acidity regular just level out the PH? So a PH meter would indeed be useful?

party_pants said:

why don’t you just try another brand?

What sort of sick bunner are you?

For the acidity regulator I am thinking of using citric acid.

Is there any advantage in using something else like acetic acid instead?

It will be the spices you have to get right. The other stuff won’t matter too much.

bourke said:

OCDC said:

bourke said:

Vinegar
Acidity regulator

Obviously the thing I need to find out is the quantities of Vinegar and Salt, as well as what spices they add…

I am thinking of purchasing a PH meter ($8 ebay) to help gauge the Vinegar ratio.

No good, there’s a buffer or something else changing the pH.

Doesn’t the acidity regulator just mean they level off any variations in the Vinegar’s PH?

E.g. they add the same quantity of Vinegar – but the PH of the tomatoes probably varies depending on season/produce etc…

So doesn’t the acidity regular just level out the PH? So a PH meter would indeed be useful?

No. Without knowing either variable (ie amount of vinegar or amount of buffer), you can’t work out how much the other is.

However, if you could measure just the acetic acid, you could get a pretty accurate amount of vinegar.

bourke said:

For the acidity regulator I am thinking of using citric acid.

Is there any advantage in using something else like acetic acid instead?

You mean more vinegar?

They could be adding a base rather than another acid.

Indeed, in the lab that’s what one does with tissue culture medium, to get a standard pH after adding everything else. NaOH, pacifically.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

why don’t you just try another brand?

What sort of sick bunner are you?

One of those who contributed to their demise: I prefer the plastic squeezy bottles. Squeezy glass bottles hurt my hands.

I thought there was something wrong with your ingredients list. When I make tomato sauce there is a lot of sugar in it. Here is the list from my bottle of Rosella:

tomato puree(76%) (water, tomato paste)
sugar
salt
acidity regulator (260)
flavour

Any more help?

>>One of those who contributed to their demise: I prefer the plastic squeezy bottles<<

I have some Rosella in a plastic bottle in the fridge at work.

party_pants said:

why don’t you just try another brand?

Three quarters of the shelf that use to house the dead horse now reads ‘Ketchup’… since when did the septics invade?

I eat Tomato Sauce, not Ketchup, I am not Chinese/Malay/Singaporean nor American!

I say Zebra like Debra, I don’t say Zeebra like Deebra!

buffy said:

I thought there was something wrong with your ingredients list. When I make tomato sauce there is a lot of sugar in it. Here is the list from my bottle of Rosella:

tomato puree(76%) (water, tomato paste)
sugar
salt
acidity regulator (260)
flavour

Any more help?

Thanks, yes forgot the sugar… but not that I’ll notice that missing (lower sugar is what distinguishes dead horse from its nemesis)!

OK, and the sauce I make doesn’t taste like Rosella, but for your research, the ingredients are:

tomatoes, apples, onions, garlic, ginger (ground and whole), sugar, salt, vinegar, mace, cayenne, cloves, allspice(pimento). There is also some stuff on the market called Ezysauce for tomato sauce making which you use instead of the spices. I don’t know what is in it, because I’ve always used dried spices.

buffy said:

>>One of those who contributed to their demise: I prefer the plastic squeezy bottles<<

I have some Rosella in a plastic bottle in the fridge at work.

They probably got on that horse a bit too late. I’ve been locked into the rival brand for a decade.

Truth be told I probably use BBQ sauce more often than tomato sauce.

260 = glacial acetic acid. Noice.
I have 4 bottles in the pantry. I’m going to be rich!

You would notice if your sauce did not have the sugar in it. It’s a major component.
As is the salt. That’s why it lasts so long.

Well, the vinegar helps.

How many bottles of sauce have you managed to acquire morrie? I bought the last ones from all three supermarkets in Hamilton a couple of weeks ago.

buffy said:

How many bottles of sauce have you managed to acquire morrie? I bought the last ones from all three supermarkets in Hamilton a couple of weeks ago.

I have 4 bottles buffy, but there are bound to be more in the shop here.

buffy said:

You would notice if your sauce did not have the sugar in it. It’s a major component.
As is the salt. That’s why it lasts so long.

Well, the vinegar helps.

What if I used some aged Balsamic vinegar in there – wouldn’t that sweeten it up?

I have 8 bottles in the pantry and one 2/3 full in the condiments cupboard. If I was the only one using it, that would probably last me a couple of years. I like it, but I like just a taste of it. Mr buffy, however, tends to have jaded tastebuds that need more of a hit. But my brother is a swamper.

buffy said:

I have 8 bottles in the pantry and one 2/3 full in the condiments cupboard. If I was the only one using it, that would probably last me a couple of years. I like it, but I like just a taste of it. Mr buffy, however, tends to have jaded tastebuds that need more of a hit. But my brother is a swamper.

8 of Rosella? Or your homemade delicacy?

Food is just and excuse to eat sauce.

Recipe for tomato sauce from a local food blogger:

http://passionfruitgarden.com/2013/05/04/tomato-sauce/

8 of Rosella?

This one. I made some sauce last year but I put too much salt in it. I think the recipe needs tweaking. We have greatly reduced our salt intake over the last 25 years, so the recipe (which is from the 1950s, I think) is too salty now. I actually had to throw the sauce out, which was a shame. The home made stuff is rather nice, but a completely different condiment from the bought sauce.

I didn’t have enough tomatoes to make sauce this year. I’ve only managed a couple of small lots of neapolitan sauce. Which I love, but it doesn’t keep unless you freeze it.

My old man worked for a tomato sauce company and he told me long ago that pear puree is a main ingredient.

You could just be like me and realise that tomato sauce is ‘orrible stuff and never ever use it on anything.
Problem solved.

poikilotherm said:

Food is just and excuse to eat sauce.

Yes – that made me ponder over this article yesterday. I didn’t realise the significance of the contribution of sauce to NAFLD. I actually boggled over what constituted the ‘sauce category’.

http://www.sciencewa.net.au/topics/health-a-medicine/item/2121-western-diet%E2%80%93fatty-liver-connection-found-in-adolescents.html

Western diet–fatty liver connection found in adolescents

WESTERN style dietary patterns have been associated with an increased risk of developing non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) in adolescents. The study, published in the American Journal of Gastroenterology, assessed specific dietary patterns associated with NAFLD—a research area previously unstudied. Lead researcher and Telethon Institute for Child Health Research’s Wendy Oddy says NAFLD affects 3-13 per cent of adolescents. “ has the potential to cause life-long complications such as cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes mellitus,” Professor Oddy says.

Dietary patterns of 14 year-old participants in the WA Pregnancy Cohort (Raine) Study were analysed, and at 17 years of age a follow-up was performed involving liver ultrasonography, biochemistry tests, physical activity patterns and family income. Each participant received a score for their dietary patterns.

“A Western dietary pattern at 14 years was associated not only with overweight/obese at 17 years, but also with an increased risk for NAFLD, independent of physical activity levels, family income and sex,” Prof Oddy says. “We found the Healthy dietary pattern was not associated with NAFLD. Higher scores on the Western dietary pattern correlated with greater risk for NAFLD—those with the highest Western dietary scores were 2.6 times more likely to have NAFLD.”

Soft drinks and sauces were particularly correlated with this risk. The adolescents consuming these products in the top quartile were twice as likely to have NAFLD. “The high sugar content of soft drinks causes a rapid spike in insulin and plasma glucose, leading to increased fat storage in the liver, while the high starch content in sauces could explain the increased association of NAFLD with these products,” Prof Oddy says.

In addition, a reduction in NAFLD risk was observed with the consumption of a Healthy dietary pattern, but only in obese female and male adolescents (those with waist circumferences greater than 80cm and 94cm respectively), suggesting a protective relationship for adolescents with centralised obesity.

The Healthy dietary pattern was characterised by whole grains, fruit, vegetables, legumes and fish, whereas the main food components of the Western dietary pattern included takeaway foods, red and processed meats, full-fat dairy products, hot chips and crisps, refined cereals, cakes and biscuits, confectionery, soft drinks, and sauces. NAFLD is now the leading cause of liver injury, and reducing adolescent obesity through a Healthy dietary pattern is seen as important for preventing its onset.

> I’m running low on dead horse, and as Rosella is bankrupt I wanted to find out their ‘secret recipe’ by reverse engineering / successive approximation.

Brilliant. Please let us know how it goes.

> It will be the spices you have to get right. The other stuff won’t matter too much.

I disagree. The cultivar of tomato and level of ripeness will be the most critical. That and thorough blending.

If you can still get a “big red” cultivar then use it. Perhaps Pantano Romanesco or Santorini cultivars. It cannot be made with Roma tomatoes. Make sure that the tomatoes are very over-ripe before use, it adds to the softness and full flavour. If you’re really stuck and can’t do that then ensure you have a sweet variety to start with and carefully strain all the fibrous matter out and chuck away.

> I’m running low on dead horse

PS. Any idea when the rhyming slang “dead horse” = “tomato sauce” originated? My first wife used to use it back in the early 1980s.

mollwollfumble said:

> I’m running low on dead horse, and as Rosella is bankrupt I wanted to find out their ‘secret recipe’ by reverse engineering / successive approximation.

Brilliant. Please let us know how it goes.

> It will be the spices you have to get right. The other stuff won’t matter too much.

I disagree. The cultivar of tomato and level of ripeness will be the most critical. That and thorough blending.

If you can still get a “big red” cultivar then use it. Perhaps Pantano Romanesco or Santorini cultivars. It cannot be made with Roma tomatoes. Make sure that the tomatoes are very over-ripe before use, it adds to the softness and full flavour. If you’re really stuck and can’t do that then ensure you have a sweet variety to start with and carefully strain all the fibrous matter out and chuck away.

Pop’s tomato sauce.. I keep telling you. has less salt than low salt formulations and tastes better.

mollwollfumble said:

> I’m running low on dead horse

PS. Any idea when the rhyming slang “dead horse” = “tomato sauce” originated? My first wife used to use it back in the early 1980s.

Knowing rhyming slang, I’d say it harks back to when tom sauce was first sold in bottles.

neomyrtus_ said:

poikilotherm said:

Food is just and excuse to eat sauce.

Yes – that made me ponder over this article yesterday. I didn’t realise the significance of the contribution of sauce to NAFLD. I actually boggled over what constituted the ‘sauce category’.

Explaining dietary things to patients, occasionally makes one want to say, eat shit and die (early). But, that’s rather inappropriate and not the case for all patients blah blah, etc., et al.

MSG

Skeptic Pete said:

MSG

Tomatos are full of it naturally, apparetly.

jjjust moi said:

Skeptic Pete said:

MSG

Tomatos are full of it naturally, apparetly.

It’s the tastiest amino acid.

mollwollfumble said:

I disagree. The cultivar of tomato and level of ripeness will be the most critical. That and thorough blending.

Thanks, I don’t think the Thermomix will have any trouble on the blending front :)

mollwollfumble said:

If you can still get a “big red” cultivar then use it. Perhaps Pantano Romanesco or Santorini cultivars.

Is there a ‘big red’ cultivar? Another name? I think I’ll have a crack with your cherry tomato idea (Santorini).

mollwollfumble said:

Make sure that the tomatoes are very over-ripe before use, it adds to the softness and full flavour.

How over-ripe can you go before it’s too over-ripe? Is there an easy test?

mollwollfumble said:

PS. Any idea when the rhyming slang “dead horse” = “tomato sauce” originated? My first wife used to use it back in the early 1980s.

Cockney isn’t it? I know Aussies developed their own variant back in the gold rush and WW1?

> How over-ripe can you go before it’s too over-ripe? Is there an easy test?

I think you’ll find that if you press on the surface and it doesn’t bounce back completely, that’s perfect for good tomato sauce. Over-ripe for tomato sauce would be showing signs of mould.

bourke said:

mollwollfumble said:

PS. Any idea when the rhyming slang “dead horse” = “tomato sauce” originated? My first wife used to use it back in the early 1980s.

Cockney isn’t it? I know Aussies developed their own variant back in the gold rush and WW1?

Interesting, according to http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/slang/dead_horse the voters are divided almost equally into groups believing that it’s classic Cockney or believing that it isn’t and never has been Cockney (Mockney).

mollwollfumble said:

bourke said:

mollwollfumble said:

PS. Any idea when the rhyming slang “dead horse” = “tomato sauce” originated? My first wife used to use it back in the early 1980s.

Cockney isn’t it? I know Aussies developed their own variant back in the gold rush and WW1?

Interesting, according to http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/slang/dead_horse the voters are divided almost equally into groups believing that it’s classic Cockney or believing that it isn’t and never has been Cockney (Mockney).

My take on it is that Cockney likely employed it for all times of sauce, not just tomato – however Australians commandeered the phrase to specifically refer to tomato sauce.

It would be a false dichotomy to believe that the phrase per se only has one use/meaning and that there is ipso facto only one origin.

bourke said:

mollwollfumble said:

bourke said:

Cockney isn’t it? I know Aussies developed their own variant back in the gold rush and WW1?

Interesting, according to http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/slang/dead_horse the voters are divided almost equally into groups believing that it’s classic Cockney or believing that it isn’t and never has been Cockney (Mockney).

My take on it is that Cockney likely employed it for all times of sauce, not just tomato – however Australians commandeered the phrase to specifically refer to tomato sauce.

It would be a false dichotomy to believe that the phrase per se only has one use/meaning and that there is ipso facto only one origin.

Yes. Rhyming slang would have been about sauce and not specifically tomato sauce without an identifier.

Update:

Done some research and it seems the main difference between dinky-di dead ‘orse and the Chinese imitation (Ketchup) is the salt to sugar ratio:

Dick Smith’s Ketchup = 25% sugar, 626mg sodium / 100ml
Rosella tomato sauce = 16% sugar, 1180mg sodium / 100ml

So I think the key is to cut down on the added sugar (probably 50% of whatever the recipe has), as well as doubling the salt…

I think the salt explains why Rosella lasts years out in the sun, whilst Ketchup goes off eventually…

My trick is I’ll use potassium salt instead of sodium salt to make it healthier.

…thinking of bottling it and calling it Lorikeet ;-)

What say ye?

>My trick is I’ll use potassium salt instead of sodium salt to make it healthier.

Na.

Na.

‘K.