Date: 26/05/2013 18:12:59
From: KJW
ID: 317719
Subject: Relocating Ants
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
Glowie would complain?
(Sorry, it just begged to be said…)
KJW said:
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
KJW said:
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
Not good I reckon. Ants seem to have all the territories patched out. I am thinking Elphinestones retreat from Kabul gear.
jjjust moi said:
Asylum seekers?
No, I don’t think the ants knew that what they were on was mobile.
Death.
captain_spalding said:
Death.
Is this relative to their normal lifespan?
It wouldn’t surprise me if they formed a new colony and one of them morphed into a queen ant or some such.
I don’t know but insects are great survivors.
Peak Warming Man said:
It wouldn’t surprise me if they formed a new colony and one of them morphed into a queen ant or some such.
I don’t know but insects are great survivors.
If it was only one or two ants, I would assume they were doomed and not thought much about it, but in the instance I’m referring to, there were a lot of ants (200 was a guess) and I am wondering if such numbers even without the queen would allow them to survive.
when you have an ant farm… you have to get a queen.. or the ants will die – without the queen, colony ants have no purpose.
Arts said:
when you have an ant farm… you have to get a queen.. or the ants will die – without the queen, colony ants have no purpose.
Do you mean “get a queen” or “get the queen”? I assume that ants from different colonies distinguish between each other.
I for one welcome our new insect overlords
Why do we want to relocate Arts. She’s well ensconced in WA, and as that is as far away as you can possibly be on this continent I suspect it works out well for all concerned.
KJW said:
Arts said:
when you have an ant farm… you have to get a queen.. or the ants will die – without the queen, colony ants have no purpose.
Do you mean “get a queen” or “get the queen”? I assume that ants from different colonies distinguish between each other.
depends if you like their music.
KJW said:
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
How far? They would eventually attempt to return to their nest by searching for ant trails with the right chemical signature. If they are too far from home it’s likely that they will be captured and killed by ants based in the territories they are wandering in.
However, some species, notably the Argentine ant, form supercolonies , in which case relocated ants probably wouldn’t be attacked and could even join a neighbouring nest.
sibeen said:
Why do we want to relocate Arts. She’s well ensconced in WA, and as that is as far away as you can possibly be on this continent I suspect it works out well for all concerned.
Works for me.
Skeptic Pete said:
sibeen said:
Why do we want to relocate Arts. She’s well ensconced in WA, and as that is as far away as you can possibly be on this continent I suspect it works out well for all concerned.
Works for me.
works both ways…
Peak Warming Man said:
It wouldn’t surprise me if they formed a new colony and one of them morphed into a queen ant or some such.
I don’t know but insects are great survivors.
Queen ants can live for a few decades, but workers only live for a few years (if they’re lucky).
Wikipedia says
Wikipedia said:
Ant colonies can be long-lived. The queens can live for up to 30 years, and workers live from 1 to 3 years. Males, however, are more transitory, being quite short-lived and surviving for only a few weeks. Ant queens are estimated to live 100 times longer than solitary insects of a similar size.
PM 2Ring said:
How far? They would eventually attempt to return to their nest by searching for ant trails with the right chemical signature.
Let’s just say they have absolutely no possibility of finding their way home.
Arts said:
Skeptic Pete said:
sibeen said:
Why do we want to relocate Arts. She’s well ensconced in WA, and as that is as far away as you can possibly be on this continent I suspect it works out well for all concerned.
Works for me.
works both ways…
ROFL
KJW said:
PM 2Ring said:
How far? They would eventually attempt to return to their nest by searching for ant trails with the right chemical signature.
Let’s just say they have absolutely no possibility of finding their way home.
I dunno. But then again what would be the range of an ant colony? Probably not 200 meters more like 10?
KJW said:
Do you mean “get a queen” or “get the queen”? I assume that ants from different colonies distinguish between each other.
PM 2Ring said:
Adult ants can’t change caste like that.
Ok. I was wondering about that possibility.
PM 2Ring said:
KJW said:
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
How far? They would eventually attempt to return to their nest by searching for ant trails with the right chemical signature. If they are too far from home it’s likely that they will be captured and killed by ants based in the territories they are wandering in.
However, some species, notably the Argentine ant, form supercolonies , in which case relocated ants probably wouldn’t be attacked and could even join a neighbouring nest.
This one.
Anecdote alert.
I cut some firewood from east of Armidale (about 80km away, as the crow flies) and brought it home. Within the hollow firewood were some ants and larvae. Probably about 5 of each. I split and stacked the firewood when I got home. It took about 5 years, but eventually, they established themselves properly in our yard. I’m guessing that one of the original larvae was fed to become a queen.
PM 2Ring said:
However, some species, notably the Argentine ant, form supercolonies , in which case relocated ants probably wouldn’t be attacked and could even join a neighbouring nest.
I assume these were ordinary black ants. I wasn’t responsible for their transfer, but I did see the ants at their final destination, and sort of know where they came from.
Skeptic Pete said:
Arts said:
Skeptic Pete said:Works for me.
works both ways…
ROFL
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Development_and_reproduction
The differentiation into queens and workers (which are both female), and different castes of workers (when they exist), is influenced in some species by the nutrition the larvae obtain. Genetic influences and the control of gene expression by the developmental environment are complex and the determination of caste continues to be a subject of research.…
Most ant species have a system in which only the queen and breeding females have the ability to mate. Contrary to popular belief, some ant nests have multiple queens while others may exist without queens. Workers with the ability to reproduce are called “gamergates” and colonies that lack queens are then called gamergate colonies; colonies with queens are said to be queen-right.
PM 2Ring said:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Development_and_reproduction
Most ant species have a system in which only the queen and breeding females have the ability to mate. Contrary to popular belief, some ant nests have multiple queens while others may exist without queens. Workers with the ability to reproduce are called “gamergates” and colonies that lack queens are then called gamergate colonies; colonies with queens are said to be queen-right.
That’s interesting. Given that these ants were away from the nest at the time of their relocation, what would be the likelihood that they contain workers able to reproduce, or for that matter, males?
I should remark that I am assuming that the ants were just foraging.
KJW said:
Given that these ants were away from the nest at the time of their relocation, what would be the likelihood that they contain workers able to reproduce, or for that matter, males?I should remark that I am assuming that the ants were just foraging.
Note: I Am NOT An Entomologist. But I have spent many, many hours observing and interacting with ants.
PM 2Ring said:
Note: I Am NOT An Entomologist. But I have spent many, many hours observing and interacting with ants.
interacting? prodding, pushing, experimenting, dissecting?
PM 2Ring said:
But I have spent many, many hours observing and interacting with ants.
I thought that might have been the case. You do seem to have a specific interest in ants.
Arts said:
PM 2Ring said:
Note: I Am NOT An Entomologist. But I have spent many, many hours observing and interacting with ants.
interacting? prodding, pushing, experimenting, dissecting?
Not much dissecting, and I try to avoid killing them unless they’re in plague proportions.
I like to watch them dismantle food and take it back to the nest. Their methods are pretty chaotic, but they get the job done.
Ant nests can be trained, to an extent. Several years ago, ants were invading the kitchen in my old flat, via a hole near the sink, but I found that if I fed them a little at one specific location and harassed them if they wandered too far, they’d soon learn to stay in safe territory. I’d let them forage over the sink (and dishes that were rinsed but unwashed), but I could just knock on the sink a few times and they’d quickly scuttle away.
KJW said:
Suppose one were to relocate (say) 200 worker ants to a location that is far from their original colony. What would be their fate?
simply not enough ants to be workable. By the time they morphed a king and queen, they’d have all died of the attrition rate. All you would really need though is a king and a queen.
The process of swarming is a reaction to various influences though and I doubt the ants would wait too long if the circumstances looked that extenuating.
How do you know it was only workers that were relocated?
The ease with which colonies can be translocated is not to be underestimated. If the ants were in or on an item, it’s entirely possible that there was a queen or potential queen in larval form.
Teleost said:
How do you know it was only workers that were relocated?The ease with which colonies can be translocated is not to be underestimated. If the ants were in or on an item, it’s entirely possible that there was a queen or potential queen in larval form.
It was an assumption. Although based on an actual event, my curiosity is about the case where there are just workers foraging for food and find themselves stranded in unknown territory with no way back to the colony, and in numbers that might give them some chance of survival.
Several years ago, fire ants were introduced into SE Qld from (IIRC) South America via shipping. Would the queen have been required in this case?
On the topic of fire ants, it has been quite a while since I’ve heard anything about them. Have they been successfully eradicated or are they just “old news”?
KJW said:
On the topic of fire ants, it has been quite a while since I’ve heard anything about them. Have they been successfully eradicated or are they just “old news”?
They were making progress towards eradication, then LNP cut funding to the program.
Geoff D said:
They were making progress towards eradication, then LNP cut funding to the program.
Sigh :-(
There was a single shiny black inch ant wandering around my bathroom for a few days recently. Don’t know where it had come from or what became of it.
Bubblecar said:
There was a single shiny black inch ant wandering around my bathroom for a few days recently. Don’t know where it had come from or what became of it.
Probably on a quest.
Worker inch ants (bull ants etc) can survive for some time without a queen:
>Myrmecia is one of several ant genera which possess gamergates, female worker ants which are able to mate and reproduce, thus sustaining the colony after the loss of the queen. A colony of Myrmecia pyriformis without queen was collected in 1998 and kept in captivity, during which time the gamergates produced viable workers for three years.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmecia
Bubblecar said:
Worker inch ants (bull ants etc) can survive for some time without a queen: >Myrmecia is one of several ant genera which possess gamergates, female worker ants which are able to mate and reproduce, thus sustaining the colony after the loss of the queen. A colony of Myrmecia pyriformis without queen was collected in 1998 and kept in captivity, during which time the gamergates produced viable workers for three years.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmecia
The bull ant famously appears in the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer’s major work, The World as Will and Representation, as a paradigmatic example of strife and constant destruction endemic to the “will to live”.
“But the bulldog-ant of Australia affords us the most extraordinary example of this kind; for if it is cut in two, a battle begins between the head and the tail. The head seizes the tail in its teeth, and the tail defends itself bravely by stinging the head: the battle may last for half an hour, until they die or are dragged away by other ants. This contest takes place every time the experiment is tried.”
Bubblecar said:
The bull ant famously appears in the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer’s major work, The World as Will and Representation, as a paradigmatic example of strife and constant destruction endemic to the “will to live”.“But the bulldog-ant of Australia affords us the most extraordinary example of this kind; for if it is cut in two, a battle begins between the head and the tail. The head seizes the tail in its teeth, and the tail defends itself bravely by stinging the head: the battle may last for half an hour, until they die or are dragged away by other ants. This contest takes place every time the experiment is tried.”
Yep.. I know all that.. If you were able to connect to my computer at this very minute you’d be able to see new photos taken only an hour or two ago of bull ants desperately trying to dare me to move an millimetre. They knew I was there but I’d stopped moving and the camera lens probably doesn’t look appetising.
morrie said:
Bubblecar said:
The bull ant famously appears in the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer’s major work, The World as Will and Representation, as a paradigmatic example of strife and constant destruction endemic to the “will to live”.“But the bulldog-ant of Australia affords us the most extraordinary example of this kind; for if it is cut in two, a battle begins between the head and the tail. The head seizes the tail in its teeth, and the tail defends itself bravely by stinging the head: the battle may last for half an hour, until they die or are dragged away by other ants. This contest takes place every time the experiment is tried.”
Amazing antics!
Strange as it may seem but all the above was posted here four pages back from today’s page. http://www.flickr.com/photos/99559986@N00/8651253989/?details=1
buffy said:
What ever happened to Glowie? she never did anyone any harm, same cannot be said for some of her antagonistsGlowie would complain?
(Sorry, it just begged to be said…)
She’s probably still out there somewhere bob, but she might have forgotten how to use the internet.
Bubblecar said:
She’s probably still out there somewhere bob, but she might have forgotten how to use the internet.
Yeah sad, but proly true.
Bubblecar said:
She’s probably still out there somewhere bob, but she might have forgotten how to use the internet.
She might not know about this place. One other SSSFer I haven’t seen here is JF.
Tonight’s Time Team. We’re getting these very fresh indeed – only broadcast in Blighty a couple months ago:
Upton Castle
In 1997 Steve and Pru Barlow were visiting Upton Castle, a 13th century site in Pembrokeshire, most well known for its formal gardens. This proved to be a fateful visit as the then owner had become fed up with trying to run such a huge concern and complained to the Barlows about his wish to sell…
One impulse decision later and Steve and Pru became the new owners of a substantial castle with grand 19th century alterations, a chapel and a considerable amount of land.
As restoration of the house has continued Steve and Pru have become fascinated with the history of the site, which is likely to have been an important strategic location (on a river) well before the arrival of the Normans in Wales. The estate boasts a chapel beside the castle (on a different alignment and complete with pre-norman effigies), ruined medieval buildings of unknown function nearby and mysterious bridges, weirs and other landscape features. The ultimate Time Team back garden!
Time Team were invited to uncover the hidden history of Upton Castle. The team began by exploring the jumble of building types and periods represented by the castle itself and attempting unpick them, exploring the estate for clues as to its origin and surveying the lawns around the house for evidence of its earlier layout. Excavation proved tricky as the team had to avoid the formal gardns and even excavated inside one of the 13th century towers to investigate earlier floor levels… To find the answers to the questions that Steve and Pru had the team would have to bring their unique skill sets together to deliver to the family the earliest origins of their home.
Apologies, wrong thread.
Bubblecar said:
Apologies, wrong thread.
no worries. I was interested and did read it all.
Geoff D said:
KJW said:
On the topic of fire ants, it has been quite a while since I’ve heard anything about them. Have they been successfully eradicated or are they just “old news”?
They were making progress towards eradication, then LNP cut funding to the program.
The reason you haven’t heard anything is because the Qld LNP is not telling people about what’s happening after all their “cost savings”.
The RIFA (Red Imported Fire Ant) program is still running albeit under significantly reduced funding. Cut throat Campbell axed the funding for Yellow crazy ants all together although this had pretty much been achieved under captain Bligh. If she had stayed in power, it probably would have been cut anyway. There may be some movement on this front but it’s early days yet. The other Qld ant eradication project, for Electric ants is continuing as it is a nationally cost shared project.
KJW said:
Teleost said:
How do you know it was only workers that were relocated?The ease with which colonies can be translocated is not to be underestimated. If the ants were in or on an item, it’s entirely possible that there was a queen or potential queen in larval form.
It was an assumption. Although based on an actual event, my curiosity is about the case where there are just workers foraging for food and find themselves stranded in unknown territory with no way back to the colony, and in numbers that might give them some chance of survival.
About 18 months ago I observed a wash down event where ants were washed down a creek up to a kilometer from their point of origin. The workers found in debris were a bit like human flood survivors. Without a queen, they were disorganised and while they were happy to recognise food, they didn’t seem to know what to do once they’d found it.
The reaction would vary between species though.
Teleost said:
The RIFA (Red Imported Fire Ant) program is still running albeit under significantly reduced funding. Cut throat Campbell axed the funding for Yellow crazy ants all together although this had pretty much been achieved under captain Bligh. If she had stayed in power, it probably would have been cut anyway. There may be some movement on this front but it’s early days yet. The other Qld ant eradication project, for Electric ants is continuing as it is a nationally cost shared project.
Wow. I wasn’t aware of the other two ant eradication projects you mentioned.
KJW said:
Teleost said:
The RIFA (Red Imported Fire Ant) program is still running albeit under significantly reduced funding. Cut throat Campbell axed the funding for Yellow crazy ants all together although this had pretty much been achieved under captain Bligh. If she had stayed in power, it probably would have been cut anyway. There may be some movement on this front but it’s early days yet. The other Qld ant eradication project, for Electric ants is continuing as it is a nationally cost shared project.
Wow. I wasn’t aware of the other two ant eradication projects you mentioned.
wookiemeister said:
it makes me wonder if you could have a wandering machine that looks at ants it discovers and then alerts HQ ie it plots the location GPS wise. a human can then visit and plan an attack
We have such devices. They’re called ‘people’.
Problems is, they do insist on being paid for their efforts.
Teleost said:
About 18 months ago I observed a wash down event where ants were washed down a creek up to a kilometer from their point of origin. The workers found in debris were a bit like human flood survivors. Without a queen, they were disorganised and while they were happy to recognise food, they didn’t seem to know what to do once they’d found it.The reaction would vary between species though.
One difference between my case and your case is that on the relocated car, the ants were well organised with well established ant trails, and it wouldn’t be until they get on the ground that they’d realise something is wrong, whereas being washed down a creek, they’d be disorganised from the outset.
captain_spalding said:
wookiemeister said:it makes me wonder if you could have a wandering machine that looks at ants it discovers and then alerts HQ ie it plots the location GPS wise. a human can then visit and plan an attack
We have such devices. They’re called ‘people’.
Problems is, they do insist on being paid for their efforts.
you could farm out the extermination to a man employed by the gov
if the unions start playing up you can farm this work out to the original robot
Do all ants look the same in the dark?
May 28, 2013 – 11:29PM
Matthew Raggatt
If you have ever struggled to find your way home in the dark, take comfort – Australian bull ants have the same problem.
Canberra-based research has found bull ants travelling at night are less likely to find their nests and can take hours longer to reach home than those who return at dawn.
Ajay Narendra, part of the research team at Australia’s Vision Centre, said a reliance on landmarks was to blame for the nocturnal tardiness, despite night-active ants having larger lenses and better photoreceptors to capture light.
“We found that even with this compensation, the nocturnal bull ants still take longer to get to their food sources or nests at night.
“Our study shows that this is because these ants rely predominantly on surrounding landmarks to navigate, and that landmark information is less salient in the dark.”
And in the insect equivalent of someone fumbling with their keys at the door, Dr Narendra said more than half of the ‘‘dark ant’‘ travel time was spent trying to find the hole.
“In a couple of cases we found the ants actually walk on top of the nest and not go in, and spend up to an hour-and-a-half in a 50-square-centimetre area .”
The average travel time for an ant in bright conditions was 10-15 minutes, with those travelling back with prey during the dark averaging a 40-minute trip.
Scientists at the Vision Centre – which receives Australian Research Council funding – used GPS technology to track 500-600 painted ants to an accuracy of a few centimetres.
The researchers found almost all the workers left their nests within a 1.5-hour period around twilight to forage on a nearby eucalyptus tree, and ants which left the nest within 10 minutes of sunset reached the tree faster than those that left an hour after twilight.
“The ‘late’ ants walked more slowly, stopped more frequently and paused for longer compared to the early foragers – they were also less able to travel in a straight path,” Dr Narendra said.
Most of the bull ants were found to take the trip back to the nest at dawn, but the 10 per cent who started their return trip at midnight took significantly longer.
One nocturnal traveller departing at midnight took 4.5 hours to return to her nest, but needed only three minutes to cover the same distance when she went home at dawn another day.
Dr Narendra, from the Australian National University’s research school of biology, said the ants returning during the night were workers who had captured prey.
“Once they’ve found a spider or a wasp, there’s no point in hanging around,” he said.
“The best thing to do is to store the prey in a safe place, and the safest place is home.”
Those ants going on “self-nourishing trips” – where they feed on honeydew produced by sap-sucking insects – stay on the eucalyptus tree during the night and go home in the dim light of dawn.
Dr Narendra said the findings could provide potential for improved navigational technology.
“How they do it with so few neurons might help us to know how to build miniature, autonomous navigational tools,” he said.
The research was published this year in the international PLOS ONE online journal.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/do-all-ants-look-the-same-in-the-dark-20130528-2n8r4.html#ixzz2UbMdXAdX
Well that was an interesting read that kept me from finding my way to bed for a bit.
Thanks for that WR.
I can amaze and astound my work mates today :)