Hi,

My primary school science club has a topic on oceans next week and we are organising three activities (as usual).

My friends are doing:
1. ocean currents;
2. whales and dolphins

Initially for #3 I was thinking about the ocean rubbish gyres and sea life impacts from rubbish, but thought that is pretty depressing.

My teenage son suggested submarines. I thought this sounded good (not something I would of thought of myself) so I am looking for ideas for a discussion and/or activity that will only go for 20 mins (x 3 groups of kids).

So far I have:

• HMAS Stirling: the naval base here in Perth that has six Collins class submarines (I have some info on that)
• Deep sea research by sub: sea trenches, search for HMAS Melbourne, search for the Titanic.
• I have read some where about making a simple submarine that can go up and down in the water with an attached airline (or something like that).

*Probably a very brief history to start

Any submarine ideas/anecdotes much appreciated, so I look like the world authority on subs :)

(PS not sure if I will tell them about my cousins “coffin dreams” during his brief submariner career…)

(PPS the Fremantle Maritime Museum has a wonderful Oberon class submarine on display, HMAS Ovens. Highly recommended)

How about calculating the heading and speed of a torpedo to hit a nice heavy aircraft carrier?

I have read some where about making a simple submarine that can go up and down in the water with an attached airline (or something like that).

a Cartesian diver is a classic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_diver

>a Cartesian diver is a classic.

Wouldn’t that be a bit graphic?

a picture is worth a thousand words and a moving one moreso.

sibeen said:

>a Cartesian diver is a classic.

Wouldn’t that be a bit graphic?

golf clap

sibeen said:

>a Cartesian diver is a classic.

Wouldn’t that be a bit graphic?

I think….

As an aside I wonder how long manned subs will last. I think pretty much all the applications can be done by machine, the only downside being they would have to be really autonomous, no time to communicate back to a human operator.

Maybe not so much subs more a smission specific torpedos or mines. Info gathering or defensive/offensive. Instead of a carrier group having a couple of subs clearing the way they might find it cheaper to use a system of systems ahead and to the sides of the group to protect it.

Apparently how long a submarine may remain under the water is a secret for security purposes.

Apparently how long a submarine may remain under the water is a secret for security purposes.

lowers cone of silence.

you can talk freely now ms.

monkey skipper said:

Apparently how long a submarine may remain under the water is a secret for security purposes.

They can remain underwater for as long as they have fuel, nukes ones don’t even have to snorkel. They are limited in duration by crew endurance and fridgespace.

podzol said:

• Deep sea research by sub: sea trenches, search for HMAS Melbourne, search for the Titanic.

I reckon concentrate on this one. Life around deep ocean vents, search for the Titanic and other famous ships. Should be able to find plenty of info about it online.

Skunkworks said:

monkey skipper said:

Apparently how long a submarine may remain under the water is a secret for security purposes.

They can remain underwater for as long as they have fuel, nukes ones don’t even have to snorkel. They are limited in duration by crew endurance and fridgespace.

What!!

Do they put the personel into the fridge to preserve them?

:D

monkey skipper said:

Skunkworks said:

monkey skipper said:

Apparently how long a submarine may remain under the water is a secret for security purposes.

They can remain underwater for as long as they have fuel, nukes ones don’t even have to snorkel. They are limited in duration by crew endurance and fridgespace.

What!!

Do they put the personel into the fridge to preserve them?

:D

Only after a tragic incident.

Angus Prune said:

monkey skipper said:

Skunkworks said:

They can remain underwater for as long as they have fuel, nukes ones don’t even have to snorkel. They are limited in duration by crew endurance and fridgespace.

What!!

Do they put the personel into the fridge to preserve them?

:D

Only after a tragic incident.

whooohooo, extra icecream tonight, we have to make room in the freezer.

Skunkworks said:

Angus Prune said:

Only after a tragic incident.

whooohooo, extra icecream tonight, we have to make room in the freezer.

I was thinking exactly that, but thought it’d be tactful to not type it :p

It’s the same on cruise ships, if an elderly passenger has a heart attack or something.

Angus Prune said:

Skunkworks said:

Angus Prune said:

Only after a tragic incident.

whooohooo, extra icecream tonight, we have to make room in the freezer.

I was thinking exactly that, but thought it’d be tactful to not type it :p

It’s the same on cruise ships, if an elderly passenger has a heart attack or something.

How disturbing!

i’d say subs are split into two catagories

attacking sea traffic

launching ICBMS

both could probably be used to launch other activities

if you want know more about Australian subs you’d probably be better off asking the chinese about them, they have all the info on that subject

your underwater gliders are proven to be able to travel silently over great distances, the uni of southampton has been experimenting with them. – ya boo sucks to the hydrophones placed on the sea bed or other measures.

monkey skipper said:

Angus Prune said:

Skunkworks said:

whooohooo, extra icecream tonight, we have to make room in the freezer.

I was thinking exactly that, but thought it’d be tactful to not type it :p

It’s the same on cruise ships, if an elderly passenger has a heart attack or something.

How disturbing!

Its disturbing it is not an if. Though not unexpected with all the wrinklies on board.

the best shape for subs is a bloated teardrop design

back in the 50s they experimented with these but gave up due to the challenges of the shape and the things that needed to be fitted in

nowadays a sub might have its tower upfront to leave a long section free to launch its ICBMs

a sub should be as streamlined as possible, the propeller should be designed to minimise cavitation – this can be helped by a brain controlling the prop speed and the shape of the prop itself . the more noise the sub makes the more likely it can be detected.

the yanks have a lake where they can test subs. they take it down and then switch the prop off and then make it rise, they then listen for the noise created just by passing through water.

fins on a sub will cause turbulence, so you don’t want this turbulence hitting another fin behind it.

the tower is used to add practicality to the thing but also to add stability as I’ve read.

podzol said:

Hi,

My primary school science club has a topic on oceans next week and we are organising three activities (as usual).

My friends are doing:
1. ocean currents;
2. whales and dolphins

Initially for #3 I was thinking about the ocean rubbish gyres and sea life impacts from rubbish, but thought that is pretty depressing.

My teenage son suggested submarines. I thought this sounded good (not something I would of thought of myself) so I am looking for ideas for a discussion and/or activity that will only go for 20 mins (x 3 groups of kids).

So far I have:

• HMAS Stirling: the naval base here in Perth that has six Collins class submarines (I have some info on that)
• Deep sea research by sub: sea trenches, search for HMAS Melbourne, search for the Titanic.
• I have read some where about making a simple submarine that can go up and down in the water with an attached airline (or something like that).

*Probably a very brief history to start

Any submarine ideas/anecdotes much appreciated, so I look like the world authority on subs :)

(PS not sure if I will tell them about my cousins “coffin dreams” during his brief submariner career…)

(PPS the Fremantle Maritime Museum has a wonderful Oberon class submarine on display, HMAS Ovens. Highly recommended)

have a look into buying a model sub and have him learn the working parts and terms

you could make a working model by getting some pvc pipe and putting a bladder inside it to push water out or allow inside

paint it all black so it looks all menacing

I would have covered diving and depth and deep seas research ..

Do you follow David Thaler (Sothern Fried Science) on twitter?

http://www.southernfriedscience.com/?p=14694

They had a whole series on the Caymas Abyss study – with the (in)famous caged and uncaged dead pig study.

http://intothecaymanabyss.blogspot.com.au/

There has also been awesome work by NIWA (NZ) on the Kermadec Trench and deep Fiordland ecology.

http://www.niwa.co.nz/video/biodiversity-in-the-kermadecs

Unmanned submersibles are used for these tsudies,..

and the oldest and most famous manned submersible is Alvin – piloted by Sylvia Earle herself…

http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/explorers/bios/sylvia-earle/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSV_Alvin

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/subs/alvin/alvin.html

of course you could always take a slightly different tack and explore the depth charge

all you’d need to do is consult the latest chemicals of concern booklet along with some handy instructions from the attorney general and you’d be all set

Ha ha excellent, so many great ideas.

I can just imagine all the forumers coming along and having displays and activities for the kids :)) Submarine Day!

I will have to save some of the ideas for another session, maybe a whole session (or more!) for Neo’s links.

When I visited the HMAS Ovens they said if they are in silent mode the crew have to lie on the floor – so they don’t drop anything. Such an effective way to keep the hands at ground level. There was also a big deal around keeping rubbish in the sub when they are in stealth mode, so that floating rubbish wouldn’t give their location away. Apparently it can get pretty smelly… that and the lack of washing!

podzol said:

Ha ha excellent, so many great ideas.

I can just imagine all the forumers coming along and having displays and activities for the kids :)) Submarine Day!

I will have to save some of the ideas for another session, maybe a whole session (or more!) for Neo’s links.

When I visited the HMAS Ovens they said if they are in silent mode the crew have to lie on the floor – so they don’t drop anything. Such an effective way to keep the hands at ground level. There was also a big deal around keeping rubbish in the sub when they are in stealth mode, so that floating rubbish wouldn’t give their location away. Apparently it can get pretty smelly… that and the lack of washing!

Indeed, goes to show doesn’t it. They were that sensitive against a navy finding some rubbish floating in the waves which in turn could be tracked back shows the extreme limits of stealth they operate with.

This little video of a descent into the Mariana trench is packed with lots of deep sea trivia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2tm40uMhDI

ah

This little video of a descent into the Mariana trench is packed with lots of deep sea trivia this one

I was saving the submarine thread for later.. fifteen pages of chat was taking a bit ti get through

party_pants said:

podzol said:

• Deep sea research by sub: sea trenches, search for HMAS Melbourne, search for the Titanic.

I reckon concentrate on this one. Life around deep ocean vents, search for the Titanic and other famous ships. Should be able to find plenty of info about it online.

Don’t you mean HMAS Sydney?

Geoff D said:

party_pants said:

podzol said:

• Deep sea research by sub: sea trenches, search for HMAS Melbourne, search for the Titanic.

I reckon concentrate on this one. Life around deep ocean vents, search for the Titanic and other famous ships. Should be able to find plenty of info about it online.

Don’t you mean HMAS Sydney?

I think that Podzol does mean HMAS Sydney, Geoff.

As for HMAS Melbourne – i believe there’s a few small bits of it in the disposable blade in my razor.

Sorry, yes HMAS Sydney (not that other Naval vessel with a capital city name, d’oh!).

yes, hmas melbourne had victims and was not a victim.

podzol said:

Sorry, yes HMAS Sydney (not that other Naval vessel with a capital city name, d’oh!).

Well, there’s quite a number of capital city-named ships which are doing submarine imitations these days.

is that what they mean about capital ships? that they are named after a capital?

;-)

ChrispenEvan said:

is that what they mean about capital ships? that they are named after a capital?

;-)

Yes. For instance HMAS Bundaberg is named after the capital of Provincialism.

captain_spalding said:

podzol said:

Sorry, yes HMAS Sydney (not that other Naval vessel with a capital city name, d’oh!).

Well, there’s quite a number of capital city-named ships which are doing submarine imitations these days.

HMAS Perth was last seen off the western bow?

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

podzol said:

Sorry, yes HMAS Sydney (not that other Naval vessel with a capital city name, d’oh!).

Well, there’s quite a number of capital city-named ships which are doing submarine imitations these days.

HMAS Perth was last seen off the western bow?

There’s two of them.

One in King George Sound. The other in the Sunda Strait.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Well, there’s quite a number of capital city-named ships which are doing submarine imitations these days.

HMAS Perth was last seen off the western bow?

There’s two of them.

One in King George Sound. The other in the Sunda Strait.

I take it they’d have scratched the name by now..?

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

HMAS Perth was last seen off the western bow?

There’s two of them.

One in King George Sound. The other in the Sunda Strait.

Oh, no. Names endure, assigned to new ships as inheritors of the earlier ships’ traditions, and as memorials to them. One of the coming air defence destroyers will probably be named HMAS Perth.

I take it they’d have scratched the name by now..?

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

I take it they’d have scratched the name by now..?

captain_spalding said:

Oh, no. Names endure, assigned to new ships as inheritors of the earlier ships’ traditions, and as memorials to them. One of the coming air defence destroyers will probably be named HMAS Perth.

A ship I’d not be looking for a job on.

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

I take it they’d have scratched the name by now..?

captain_spalding said:

Oh, no. Names endure, assigned to new ships as inheritors of the earlier ships’ traditions, and as memorials to them. One of the coming air defence destroyers will probably be named HMAS Perth.

A ship I’d not be looking for a job on.

While the first HMAS Perth was sunk by enemy action (WW2), well, that’s how it goes. It was a war, and it was a warship.

The second one was sunk deliberately after decommissioning, and was, as i recall, a happy and efficient ship. It did suffer 7 casualties (2 serious , 5 minor) after being hit by shore artillery in bombarding North Vietnam, but no fatalities.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

captain_spalding said:

Oh, no. Names endure, assigned to new ships as inheritors of the earlier ships’ traditions, and as memorials to them. One of the coming air defence destroyers will probably be named HMAS Perth.

A ship I’d not be looking for a job on.

While the first HMAS Perth was sunk by enemy action (WW2), well, that’s how it goes. It was a war, and it was a warship.

The second one was sunk deliberately after decommissioning, and was, as i recall, a happy and efficient ship. It did suffer 7 casualties (2 serious , 5 minor) after being hit by shore artillery in bombarding North Vietnam, but no fatalities.

fair enough but I’m still a landlubber and I doan wanna fight no wars particularly at sea.

captain_spalding said:

ChrispenEvan said:

is that what they mean about capital ships? that they are named after a capital?

;-)

Yes. For instance HMAS Bundaberg is named after the capital of Provincialism.

.

Also named after the Capital of Australian Rum.

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

A ship I’d not be looking for a job on.

While the first HMAS Perth was sunk by enemy action (WW2), well, that’s how it goes. It was a war, and it was a warship.

The second one was sunk deliberately after decommissioning, and was, as i recall, a happy and efficient ship. It did suffer 7 casualties (2 serious , 5 minor) after being hit by shore artillery in bombarding North Vietnam, but no fatalities.

fair enough but I’m still a landlubber and I doan wanna fight no wars particularly at sea.

NO-ONE should have to fight no wars, ever.

But, i think i’d rather do it at sea. Sort of less personal. It’s not really you, individually, that they’re trying to destroy. If they can just wreck the ship, that’ll probably do.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

While the first HMAS Perth was sunk by enemy action (WW2), well, that’s how it goes. It was a war, and it was a warship.

The second one was sunk deliberately after decommissioning, and was, as i recall, a happy and efficient ship. It did suffer 7 casualties (2 serious , 5 minor) after being hit by shore artillery in bombarding North Vietnam, but no fatalities.

fair enough but I’m still a landlubber and I doan wanna fight no wars particularly at sea.

NO-ONE should have to fight no wars, ever.

But, i think i’d rather do it at sea. Sort of less personal. It’s not really you, individually, that they’re trying to destroy. If they can just wreck the ship, that’ll probably do.

At least if they wreck the ship on land there isn’t a thousand miles of cold water to navigate back to the pub.

when he said water water everywhere and not a drop to drink.. He could have been bemoaning having lost the scotch over the side.

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

fair enough but I’m still a landlubber and I doan wanna fight no wars particularly at sea.

NO-ONE should have to fight no wars, ever.

But, i think i’d rather do it at sea. Sort of less personal. It’s not really you, individually, that they’re trying to destroy. If they can just wreck the ship, that’ll probably do.

At least if they wreck the ship on land there isn’t a thousand miles of cold water to navigate back to the pub.

It can be done. William Bligh managed 3,618 nautical miles (6,701 km)

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

NO-ONE should have to fight no wars, ever.

But, i think i’d rather do it at sea. Sort of less personal. It’s not really you, individually, that they’re trying to destroy. If they can just wreck the ship, that’ll probably do.

At least if they wreck the ship on land there isn’t a thousand miles of cold water to navigate back to the pub.

It can be done. William Bligh managed 3,618 nautical miles (6,701 km)

yeah but he didn’t have to swim.

As for ‘wreck the ship on land’:

Wm. Bligh was a navigator par excellence.

Whereas i, in a chartwork exercise, once managed to plot the final position of my ‘virtual’ 2,800 ton destroyer escort as being a few miles to the west of Ballarat.

Not my finest day. I may have divided by zero somewhere along the way.

captain_spalding said:

As for ‘wreck the ship on land’:

Wm. Bligh was a navigator par excellence.

Whereas i, in a chartwork exercise, once managed to plot the final position of my ‘virtual’ 2,800 ton destroyer escort as being a few miles to the west of Ballarat.

Not my finest day. I may have divided by zero somewhere along the way.

You should have been using a Mac.. It would have flashed a pop-up saying “sorry to disturb you but that’s not possible to compute”

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

As for ‘wreck the ship on land’:

Wm. Bligh was a navigator par excellence.

Whereas i, in a chartwork exercise, once managed to plot the final position of my ‘virtual’ 2,800 ton destroyer escort as being a few miles to the west of Ballarat.

Not my finest day. I may have divided by zero somewhere along the way.

You should have been using a Mac.. It would have flashed a pop-up saying “sorry to disturb you but that’s not possible to compute”

No computers allowed! (We didn’t have any, anyway) No SatNav allowed! No calculators allowed!

We were lucky they allowed us pencils, and didn’t make us calculate and mark charts in our own blood.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

As for ‘wreck the ship on land’:

Wm. Bligh was a navigator par excellence.

Whereas i, in a chartwork exercise, once managed to plot the final position of my ‘virtual’ 2,800 ton destroyer escort as being a few miles to the west of Ballarat.

Not my finest day. I may have divided by zero somewhere along the way.

You should have been using a Mac.. It would have flashed a pop-up saying “sorry to disturb you but that’s not possible to compute”

No computers allowed! (We didn’t have any, anyway) No SatNav allowed! No calculators allowed!

We were lucky they allowed us pencils, and didn’t make us calculate and mark charts in our own blood.

thankfully you scavenged a pencil or you’d have bled to death.

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

You should have been using a Mac.. It would have flashed a pop-up saying “sorry to disturb you but that’s not possible to compute”

No computers allowed! (We didn’t have any, anyway) No SatNav allowed! No calculators allowed!

We were lucky they allowed us pencils, and didn’t make us calculate and mark charts in our own blood.

thankfully you scavenged a pencil or you’d have bled to death.

Scavenged? I had to bludgeon the bloke next to me, and steal his.

Think of that the next time they’re talking about cutting the defence budget.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

No computers allowed! (We didn’t have any, anyway) No SatNav allowed! No calculators allowed!

We were lucky they allowed us pencils, and didn’t make us calculate and mark charts in our own blood.

thankfully you scavenged a pencil or you’d have bled to death.

Scavenged? I had to bludgeon the bloke next to me, and steal his.

Think of that the next time they’re talking about cutting the defence budget.

Reminds me of my HSC, when she who is now not to be disobeyed.. broke her ruler and pencil in half, as long as I went into the exam room.

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

thankfully you scavenged a pencil or you’d have bled to death.

Scavenged? I had to bludgeon the bloke next to me, and steal his.

Think of that the next time they’re talking about cutting the defence budget.

Reminds me of my HSC, when she who is now not to be disobeyed.. broke her ruler and pencil in half, as long as I went into the exam room.

You infuriated her that much?

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Scavenged? I had to bludgeon the bloke next to me, and steal his.

Think of that the next time they’re talking about cutting the defence budget.

Reminds me of my HSC, when she who is now not to be disobeyed.. broke her ruler and pencil in half, as long as I went into the exam room.

You infuriated her that much?

yes and yes.. she gave me the other halves as long as I promised to take the test. and yes.. I did pass with distinction..

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

Reminds me of my HSC, when she who is now not to be disobeyed.. broke her ruler and pencil in half, as long as I went into the exam room.

You infuriated her that much?

yes and yes.. she gave me the other halves as long as I promised to take the test. and yes.. I did pass with distinction..

Wise of you to keep her around. Sounds like she knows better than you what’s good for you.

submarines are better for those prone to sea sickness

once you’re under the waves a sub is rock steady (in theory)

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

You infuriated her that much?

yes and yes.. she gave me the other halves as long as I promised to take the test. and yes.. I did pass with distinction..

Wise of you to keep her around. Sounds like she knows better than you what’s good for you.

trouble is, she still thinks that. ;)

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

yes and yes.. she gave me the other halves as long as I promised to take the test. and yes.. I did pass with distinction..

Wise of you to keep her around. Sounds like she knows better than you what’s good for you.

trouble is, she still thinks that. ;)

Trouble is, they ALL think that.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Wise of you to keep her around. Sounds like she knows better than you what’s good for you.

trouble is, she still thinks that. ;)

Trouble is, they ALL think that.

it isn’t what it is worth.. it is what it costs..?

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

trouble is, she still thinks that. ;)

Trouble is, they ALL think that.

it isn’t what it is worth.. it is what it costs..?

‘For better or worse’, it goes. And, there’s more ‘better’ than ‘worse’.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Trouble is, they ALL think that.

it isn’t what it is worth.. it is what it costs..?

‘For better or worse’, it goes. And, there’s more ‘better’ than ‘worse’.

We wouldn’t pay the price otherwise ;)

FFS – take it to chat!

Podzol – there’s also Deep Sea News website

http://deepseanews.com/

A bunch of marine ecologists are annoyed with Animal Planet at the moment because of some ridiculous hoax mokumentary about Mermaids (second in a series … two so far) . Apparently had 3 million viewers two days ago and now marine ecologists are being inundated by public queries about cryptozoology by those who missed the obscure “this is a hoax based on fact” text at the very end of the mokumentary.

Lots of eye rolling and annoyance that the really interesting, factual stuff is not being covered by docos.

neomyrtus_ said:

those who missed the obscure “this is a hoax based on fact” text at the very end of the mokumentary.

Lots of eye rolling and annoyance that the really interesting, factual stuff is not being covered by docos.

My work associate .. when asked why he never watched or listened to the abc said “all they do is talk. Mi no spika da inglese”

Later in the day I had the radio on listening to a discussion about Eucalypts.. He looked at me and said .. I can understand that.. I just shrugged and said, well keep listening.

chat —->

neomyrtus_ said:

chat —->

—-> bossy

> Initially for #3 I was thinking about the ocean rubbish gyres and sea life impacts from rubbish, but thought that is pretty depressing.

Not at all depressing, quite the reverse. Rubbish in ocean gyres provides a safe haven for the babies of hundreds if not thousands of species of marine life. Including many fish such as eels and many invertebrates such as barnacles, muscles and tube worms. These rubbish heaps aren’t new. Long before people came along rafts of drifting vegetation waste washed out to sea formed in the same place.

Try thinking like a small fish. A small fish in the open ocean is going to get eaten unless it has a place to hide, and in the open ocean there is no place to hide, except in these ocean rubbish gyres.

• Try thinking like a small fish. A small fish in the open ocean is going to get eaten unless it has a place to hide, and in the open ocean there is no place to hide, except in these ocean rubbish gyres.

The moral being that young kids should be encouraged to chuck rubbish in the ocean to save the small fish…

Try thinking like a small fish. A small fish in the open ocean is going to get eaten unless it has a place to hide, and in the open ocean there is no place to hide, except in these ocean rubbish gyres.

most of the rubbish is extremely small so i don’t see it as a habitat for small fish. plus are there many fish in the middle of oceans anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch