when I was young people often remarked to me that I was quite sinister but as I grew older those compliments have ebbed away

heres me in my glory days

wookiemeister said:

when I was young people often remarked to me that I was quite sinister but as I grew older those compliments have ebbed away

you may have just got better at hiding it

Arts said:

wookiemeister said:

when I was young people often remarked to me that I was quite sinister but as I grew older those compliments have ebbed away

you may have just got better at hiding it

nahh its got harder getting thalium

Presumably, you were thought of in the same way as a ticking time bomb might be regarded.

These days, we just think of you as a large bit of old gelignite in the shed out back, sweating away…

wookiemeister said:

when I was young people often remarked to me that I was quite sinister but as I grew older those compliments have ebbed away

You’re leaning more to the right?

wookiemeister said:

nahh its got harder getting thalium

Got heaps of it at work.

wookiemeister said:

Arts said:

wookiemeister said:

when I was young people often remarked to me that I was quite sinister but as I grew older those compliments have ebbed away

you may have just got better at hiding it

nahh its got harder getting thalium

Try ricin.

Apparently, i the US, you can get it by mail.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-30/ricin-letters-sent-to-ny-mayor/4722140

These days, we just think of you as a large bit of old gelignite in the shed out back, sweating away…

and giving everyone a headache.

I have always been sinister, and shall remain so. So is my garden, and my frogs, and loads of living things.

Hey wookie, job opportunity coming up…

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-30/telstra-hires-200-specialists-for-asbestos-clean-up/4724028

neomyrtus_ said:

I have always been sinister, and shall remain so. So is my garden, and my frogs, and loads of living things.

i’m left-handed. That’s sinister.

captain_spalding said:

Presumably, you were thought of in the same way as a ticking time bomb might be regarded.

These days, we just think of you as a large bit of old gelignite in the shed out back, sweating away…

I would like to think of myself as more of a pipe bomb in my younger days, a nightmarish unpredictable rash of coloured wires wrapped around a flawless body of simmering chemicals that’s a nightmare for any bomb disposal team

nowadays I see myself as more of a terribly predictable wagon packed with fertiliser

wookiemeister said:

… packed with fertiliser

You said it, not me. :)

Angus Prune said:

wookiemeister said:

nahh its got harder getting thalium

Got heaps of it at work.

according to the film it makes a very nice crystal.

captain_spalding said:

neomyrtus_ said:

I have always been sinister, and shall remain so. So is my garden, and my frogs, and loads of living things.

i’m left-handed. That’s sinister.

I wager that there’s more than your left handedness which is sinister about you

and isn’t it dy-no-mite that sweats?

We are all sinister – there’s nothing special in this regard about Teh Wookster (unless he’s more biochemically fucked up than the rest of us).

19 shillings said:

Hey wookie, job opportunity coming up…

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-30/telstra-hires-200-specialists-for-asbestos-clean-up/4724028

fusk that

I’ve never considered the normal P1 and P2 masks as adequate

the only real mask is a powered mask that 3m make

(unless he’s more biochemically fucked up than the rest of us).

far be it from me to cast aspersions….

ChrispenEvan said:

and isn’t it dy-no-mite that sweats?

the liquid is TNT isn’t it?

i’m sure older explosives had to be turned to stop the liquid from seeping down and from the block

ChrispenEvan said:

and isn’t it dy-no-mite that sweats?

They both use what is, effectively, nitroglycerin, and it’s that which can cause consternation.

Having seen nitroglycerin explode in response to what was really a very mild shock, i would very carefully tiptoe away from its immediate vicinity.

Then, i’d run, having set the horizon as my destination.

wookiemeister said:

ChrispenEvan said:

and isn’t it dy-no-mite that sweats?

the liquid is TNT isn’t it?

i’m sure older explosives had to be turned to stop the liquid from seeping down and from the block

You might be right. Storage of explosives and appropriate handling and monitoring is hugely expensive and was a big driver, along with sound readiness reasons to solid fuels.

hang on

I’ve got it wrong

it was antimony sulphide, not thallium

wookiemeister said:

it was antimony sulphide, not thallium

I went to school with his brother, bartholmew sulphie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFQdcKJUijQ

explosive science. a good lecture in explosives. 60 minutes. university of manchester i think.

Distinguished Scientist, Ri Vice President and explosives expert Chris Bishop presents another action-packed demonstration lecture.

Following on from his explorations of Chemistry and the world of Fireworks, Professor Bishop turns his attention to the use, origins and properties of explosives.

the young poisoners handbook was based on this characters life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Young

Graham Frederick Young (10 September 1947 – 1 August 1990) was an English serial killer who used poison to kill his victims. He was sent to Broadmoor in 1962 after poisoning several members of his family; killing his stepmother. After his release in 1971 he went on to poison 70 more people, two of whom died. Young, who was known as the ‘teacup poisoner’ was sent to Parkhurst Prison where he died of natural causes in 1990.

In 1962 Young’s stepmother, Molly, died from poisoning. He had been poisoning his father, sister, and a school friend. Young’s aunt Winnie, who knew of his fascination with chemistry and poisons, became suspicious. He sometimes suffered the same nausea and sicknesses as his family, forgetting which foods he had laced. He was sent to a psychiatrist, who recommended contacting the police. Young was arrested on 23 May 1962, confessing to the attempted murders of his father, sister, and friend. The remains of his stepmother could not be analysed because she had been cremated, and at the time her death was not treated as suspicious but rather as the result of complications from injuries sustained in a traffic accident.

Young was detained under the Mental Health Act in Broadmoor Hospital, an institution for mentally unstable criminals, after having been assessed by two psychiatrists prior to his trial and diagnosed as suffering from a psychopathic disorder. His detention was subject to a restriction meaning that subsequent discharge, leave of absence etc. would have to be approved by the Home Secretary. The Hospital Order initially stipulated that he should be detained for at least 15 years. He was released after nine years, deemed “fully recovered”. In the hospital, Young studied medical texts, improving his knowledge of poisons, and continued experiments using inmates and staff (one of whom died). It was rumoured that his knowledge of poisons was such that he could even extract cyanide from laurel bush leaves on the mental hospital grounds and that he used this cyanide to murder fellow inmate John Berridge.

After release from hospital in 1971, he began work as a quartermaster at John Hadland Laboratories in Bovingdon, Hertfordshire, near his sister’s home in Hemel Hempstead. The company manufactured thallium bromide-iodide infrared lenses, which were used in military equipment. However, no thallium was stored on site, and Young obtained his supplies of the poison from a London chemists. His employers received references as part of Young’s rehabilitation from Broadmoor, but were not informed of his past as a convicted poisoner. Soon after he began work, his foreman, Bob Egle, grew ill and died. Young had been making tea laced with poisons for his colleagues. A sickness swept through his workplace and, mistaken for a virus, was nicknamed the Bovingdon Bug. These cases of nausea and illness, sometimes severe enough to require hospitalisation, were later attributed to Young and his tea.

While in prison, he befriended fellow serial killer Moors murderer Ian Brady, with whom he shared a fascination with Nazi Germany. In his book, The Gates of Janus (2001) published by Feral House, Brady wrote that “it was hard not to have empathy for Graham Young”. The reformed criminal Roy Shaw in Pretty Boy (2003), his autobiography, recounts his friendship with Young.

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

ChrispenEvan said:

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

ChrispenEvan said:

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

someone I know was sucking down lots of nitrous oxide recently just said it makes you giddy

ChrispenEvan said:

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

someone I know was sucking down lots of nitrous oxide recently just said it makes you giddy

yes poik, you would know about it. used as a heart attack medicine isn’t it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelignite

Gelignite /ˈdʒɛlɪɡnaɪt/, also known as blasting gelatin or simply jelly, is an explosive material consisting of collodion-cotton (a type of nitrocellulose or gun cotton) dissolved in either nitroglycerine or nitroglycol and mixed with wood pulp and saltpetre (sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate).

It was invented in 1875 by Alfred Nobel, who had earlier invented dynamite and was later to endow the Nobel Prizes. Unlike dynamite, gelignite does not suffer from the dangerous problem of sweating, the leaking of unstable nitroglycerine from the solid matrix. Its composition makes it easily moldable and safe to handle without protection, as long as it is not near anything capable of detonating it. One of the cheapest explosives, it burns slowly and cannot explode without a detonator, so it can be stored safely.

In the United Kingdom an explosives certificate, issued by the local Chief Officer of Police, is required for possession of gelignite. Due to its widespread civilian use in quarries and mining, it has historically been often used by irregular forces such as the Irish Republican Army.[

ChrispenEvan said:

yes poik, you would know about it. used as a heart attack medicine isn’t it?

Can be, yes. Great for causing headaches.

ChrispenEvan said:

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

Yes, you’re right.

I was thinking of cordite. All those old things lying about in the bush in various places.

its always made me wonder

so you’ve got I,2,3 propantriol

I wonder what would happen if you had a cyclo version where you had a ring with OH groups hanging off and then added the magic ingredient?

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

wookiemeister said:

hang on

I’ve got it wrong

it was antimony sulphide, not thallium

.

I used to work in an antimony sulpide mine. I collected bits that have small gold nuggets in them. Largest bit I’ve got is about 20 kg.

wookiemeister said:

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

i’m assuming that HF will do the same thing to asbestos as it does to glass

wookiemeister said:

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

i’m assuming that HF will do the same thing to asbestos as it does to glass

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

hang on

I’ve got it wrong

it was antimony sulphide, not thallium

.

I used to work in an antimony sulpide mine. I collected bits that have small gold nuggets in them. Largest bit I’ve got is about 20 kg.

they have mines of this stuff?

so I guess everyone walks around with a mask?

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

i’m assuming that HF will do the same thing to asbestos as it does to glass

You don’t know much about HF, do you.

jjjust moi said:

wookiemeister said:

wookiemeister said:

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

i’m assuming that HF will do the same thing to asbestos as it does to glass

You don’t know much about HF, do you.

I know its dangerous and eats away bones very quickly

you don’t normally spill this stuff on you

the thing that made me wonder is the fact it passes straight through the skin

this is why I considered it as a method to be used to spray in the lungs, it would pass though the lung very easily

perhaps you might stop breathing and let the lungs just absorb the acid deforming the needles as it does

I’m dextrous, not sinister.

wookiemeister said:

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

.

Cure worse than the disease, I reckon.

wookiemeister said:

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

hang on

I’ve got it wrong

it was antimony sulphide, not thallium

.

I used to work in an antimony sulpide mine. I collected bits that have small gold nuggets in them. Largest bit I’ve got is about 20 kg.

they have mines of this stuff?

so I guess everyone walks around with a mask?

.

Why?

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

other sinister thoughts have revolved around “curing” asbestosis

the needle shape is the cause of the problem

they can’t get it out of the lung

by the time its detected theres nothing they can do except watch the scarring finally take over the lung

one thing that’s made me wonder is this

you take some HF and spray it into the lung, perhaps this will seep into the lung and melt the needle and blunt it

at the same time you’d need to be able to remove the HF from the blood

the idea is that you melt and blunt the needle chemically without hopefully killing the patient

.

Cure worse than the disease, I reckon.

Wth a lung full of HF, asbestos would no longer be a problem.

Neither would living.

The F- ions in H+F- solution attach themselves to Ca++ ions in our cells, permanently locking up the Ca as the effectively insoluble CaF2. This kills the cell, as Ca++ is a requisite in the transport and messenger chemistry of cells – false messages get sent.

So, the pain is as huge as you can get and cell death is certain.

it is good for cleaning carby bodies though. about a 4% solution.

And for anyone who is watching on:

DO NOT, USE HF WITHOUT:

**EXTENSIVE SAFETY TRAINING **CORRECT EQUIPMENT **CORRECT PPE

SERIOUSLY, VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY

Michael V said:

And for anyone who is watching on:

DO NOT, USE HF WITHOUT:

**EXTENSIVE SAFETY TRAINING **CORRECT EQUIPMENT **CORRECT PPE

SERIOUSLY, VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY

personally I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole

glares

That includes you, ChrispenEvan, and you, Wookiemeister.

OK, I have officially stopped glaring at wookiemeister.

:)

Michael V said:

glares

That includes you, ChrispenEvan, and you, Wookiemeister.

the numbers of people seeing this site is quite limited

the numbers of people tempted to mess around with HF would be approaching zero, as i’m assuming that everyone who reads this would have at least average or above intelligence

‘Drummer’ is one of those role-specific titles the Army delights in.

Artillery privates are ‘gunners’, and their lance-corporals and corporals lance-bombardier and bombardier respectively.

Engineer privates are ‘sappers’, and, oh, i dunno, go look ‘em up.

as mentioned I think you can actually buy this stuff, its used for cleaning glass, I think I saw this on CSI once!

personally I find it amazing they would even be selling it over the counter

captain_spalding said:

‘Drummer’ is one of those role-specific titles the Army delights in.

Artillery privates are ‘gunners’, and their lance-corporals and corporals lance-bombardier and bombardier respectively.

Engineer privates are ‘sappers’, and, oh, i dunno, go look ‘em up.

In this case I understand his vocation, or ECN in our terms was as a musician, but prepared to be corrected.

and yet in the raf the guy up the front was the bomb aimer or air bomber not the bombardier, that was a yank expression, and it wasn’t bombs away but bombs gone. or so i’ve been led to believe.

i’m thinking that when the army is out collecting that they won’t let them be out and about alone

the reason those fellahs were so bold is because is that he was alone and unarmed

if there were a few more blokes hanging around they would have just driven by

ChrispenEvan said:

and yet in the raf the guy up the front was the bomb aimer or air bomber not the bombardier, that was a yank expression, and it wasn’t bombs away but bombs gone. or so i’ve been led to believe.

the bombing of german cities was a waste of time and money

the british like the germans didn’t realise that cities just absorb bombs

wookiemeister said:

ChrispenEvan said:

and yet in the raf the guy up the front was the bomb aimer or air bomber not the bombardier, that was a yank expression, and it wasn’t bombs away but bombs gone. or so i’ve been led to believe.

the bombing of german cities was a waste of time and money

the british like the germans didn’t realise that cities just absorb bombs

Who are you, and how did you get Wookie’s password?

ChrispenEvan said:

and yet in the raf the guy up the front was the bomb aimer or air bomber not the bombardier, that was a yank expression, and it wasn’t bombs away but bombs gone. or so i’ve been led to believe.

I’ve no idea I’m afraid, I flew a Spitfire during the war. I vowed to have nothing to do with bombers except shoot the cads down.

>the british like the germans didn’t realise that cities just absorb bombs

Hiroshima certainly absorbed it. As did the various German cities that were almost totally destroyed.

Strategic bombing aimed at civilians was a waste of time because civilians are harmless. But it was actually a lot more than a waste of time – it was a deliberate atrocity.

wookiemeister said:

i’m assuming that HF will do the same thing to asbestos as it does to glass

Yes, hydrofluoric acid will dissolve asbestos.

jjjust moi said:

You don’t know much about HF, do you.

QFT

wookiemeister said:

I know its dangerous and eats away bones very quickly

you don’t normally spill this stuff on you

the thing that made me wonder is the fact it passes straight through the skin

this is why I considered it as a method to be used to spray in the lungs, it would pass though the lung very easily

perhaps you might stop breathing and let the lungs just absorb the acid deforming the needles as it does

What do you mean “let the lungs just absorb the acid”? How do you stop it killing the person? If hydrofluoric acid just ate bones that’d be bad enough, but as Michael V (our resident hydrofluoric acid expert) mentioned, it’ll lock up any calcium it can find, disrupting an important biochemical communications channel. Note that nerves are rich in calcium, and HF damage to nerves is said to be excruciatingly painful.

ChrispenEvan said:

and yet in the raf the guy up the front was the bomb aimer or air bomber not the bombardier, that was a yank expression, and it wasn’t bombs away but bombs gone. or so i’ve been led to believe.

Now, if it was the RNAS, it would have been ‘bombs away’.

Orders are given in a format of “away boarders!”, or “away sea-boat!, etc.

The confirming response to this is e.g. “boarders away, sir!” etc.

Bubblecar said:

>the british like the germans didn’t realise that cities just absorb bombs

Hiroshima certainly absorbed it. As did the various German cities that were almost totally destroyed.

Strategic bombing aimed at civilians was a waste of time because civilians are harmless. But it was actually a lot more than a waste of time – it was a deliberate atrocity.

yeah but atomic weapons can’t be used all the time.

the yanks only had two ready to go.

if they had a been a bit more careful about who knew about them and where they were toddling off to off base or to other countries then we wouldn’t have the problems we do now.

wookiemeister said:

ChrispenEvan said:

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

someone I know was sucking down lots of nitrous oxide recently just said it makes you giddy

Why is that relevant?

When nitroglycerin is metabolised it produces nitric oxide, which has quite different properties to nitrous oxide. For one, nitric oxide solutions are acidic & quite reactive, whereas nitrous oxide solutions are neutral (with a pH of 7) and rather unreactive at body temperature.

FWIW, when nitroglycerin explodes, it decomposes into carbon dioxide, water, nitrogen, and oxygen.

4C₃H₅(ONO₂)₃ → 12CO₂ + 10H₂O + 6N₂ + O₂

PM 2Ring said:

wookiemeister said:

i’m assuming that HF will do the same thing to asbestos as it does to glass

Yes, hydrofluoric acid will dissolve asbestos.

jjjust moi said:

You don’t know much about HF, do you.

QFT

wookiemeister said:

I know its dangerous and eats away bones very quickly

you don’t normally spill this stuff on you

the thing that made me wonder is the fact it passes straight through the skin

this is why I considered it as a method to be used to spray in the lungs, it would pass though the lung very easily

perhaps you might stop breathing and let the lungs just absorb the acid deforming the needles as it does

What do you mean “let the lungs just absorb the acid”? How do you stop it killing the person? If hydrofluoric acid just ate bones that’d be bad enough, but as Michael V (our resident hydrofluoric acid expert) mentioned, it’ll lock up any calcium it can find, disrupting an important biochemical communications channel. Note that nerves are rich in calcium, and HF damage to nerves is said to be excruciatingly painful.

as I said it was just a thought that had often popped up in my head

you’d need to knock the person out whilst all this was going on.

you’d need to somehow stop the HF from spreading throughout the body

PM 2Ring said:

wookiemeister said:

ChrispenEvan said:

gelignite doesn’t sweat afaicr. dynomite does and the nitro gives you a shocking headache as you blood vessels dilate.

someone I know was sucking down lots of nitrous oxide recently just said it makes you giddy

Why is that relevant?

When nitroglycerin is metabolised it produces nitric oxide, which has quite different properties to nitrous oxide. For one, nitric oxide solutions are acidic & quite reactive, whereas nitrous oxide solutions are neutral (with a pH of 7) and rather unreactive at body temperature.

FWIW, when nitroglycerin explodes, it decomposes into carbon dioxide, water, nitrogen, and oxygen.

4C₃H₅(ONO₂)₃ → 12CO₂ + 10H₂O + 6N₂ + O₂

its not relevant

its a point of interest

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

>the british like the germans didn’t realise that cities just absorb bombs

Hiroshima certainly absorbed it. As did the various German cities that were almost totally destroyed.

Strategic bombing aimed at civilians was a waste of time because civilians are harmless. But it was actually a lot more than a waste of time – it was a deliberate atrocity.

yeah but atomic weapons can’t be used all the time.

the yanks only had two ready to go.

if they had a been a bit more careful about who knew about them and where they were toddling off to off base or to other countries then we wouldn’t have the problems we do now.

Joe 1 was a bit of surprise in Aug 1949, but not really.

Predictions at the time said that Russians, even without espionage, would have probably had their own A-bomb by 1952-53.

All British international airliners had been fitted with particle scoops for some time beforehand, and it was one of these which got the first airborne evidence.

are the nerves in the lung actually nerves that transmit information back to the brain or nerves that just “do”?

I was aware of damage caused by HF

I was thinking that a milder solution could be used, one strong enough to blunt NOT totally dissolve the needle

the idea is that the needle once blunted stays where it is, it doesn’t move around any more causing more scarring because its blunted

I was thinking that a mild solution could be one strong enough to blunt the needle yet not damage nerves

captain_spalding said:

wookiemeister said:

Bubblecar said:

>the british like the germans didn’t realise that cities just absorb bombs

Hiroshima certainly absorbed it. As did the various German cities that were almost totally destroyed.

Strategic bombing aimed at civilians was a waste of time because civilians are harmless. But it was actually a lot more than a waste of time – it was a deliberate atrocity.

yeah but atomic weapons can’t be used all the time.

the yanks only had two ready to go.

if they had a been a bit more careful about who knew about them and where they were toddling off to off base or to other countries then we wouldn’t have the problems we do now.

Joe 1 was a bit of surprise in Aug 1949, but not really.

Predictions at the time said that Russians, even without espionage, would have probably had their own A-bomb by 1952-53.

All British international airliners had been fitted with particle scoops for some time beforehand, and it was one of these which got the first airborne evidence.

the spying thing keeps things cheap

they were complaining about the chinese spying on the yanks and Australians

truth be known the information has just been given to them by someone working on these projects as a gift to the mother country

wookiemeister said:

if they had a been a bit more careful about who knew about them and where they were toddling off to off base or to other countries then we wouldn’t have the problems we do now.

What problems now are related to the American use of the bombs or its lapses in security?

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

if they had a been a bit more careful about who knew about them and where they were toddling off to off base or to other countries then we wouldn’t have the problems we do now.

What problems now are related to the American use of the bombs or its lapses in security?

every bugger is running around with plans to make nuclear weapons

they should have made sure that their scientists weren’t walking off and telling ANYONE how to make them.

the nuclear bombs secrets if kept secret would have certainly made for a more peaceful war – no cold war for example.

few if any countries other than America would have had the bomb for many years

you don’t train anyone in nuclear matters unless they can be trusted – that means no foreign students waltzing in learning all about it and then returning to the mother country to start bomb production.

its a very blunt way but effective

they should have had more than a few people wandering the labs watching people at work, fuchs would have been flagged immediately – uh yeah, you like going for drives all the time from this top secret project do ya?

wookiemeister said:

are the nerves in the lung actually nerves that transmit information back to the brain or nerves that just “do”?

AFAIK, all nerves in a body are part of a single network. But I Am Not An Anatomist.

wookiemeister said:

I was thinking that a milder solution could be used, one strong enough to blunt NOT totally dissolve the needle

the idea is that the needle once blunted stays where it is, it doesn’t move around any more causing more scarring because its blunted

I was thinking that a mild solution could be one strong enough to blunt the needle yet not damage nerves

The shape of asbestos fibres is only important because it means they are fine enough to penetrate deeply into the lungs. Once they get there they are detected as foreign bodies and are attacked by the immune system, which can immobilise the fibres but cannot digest them.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestosis#Pathogenesis

Asbestosis is the scarring of lung tissue (around terminal bronchioles and alveolar ducts) resulting from the inhalation of asbestos fibers. There are two types of fibers: amphibole (thin and straight) and serpentine (curved). The former are primarily responsible for human disease as they are able to penetrate deeply into the lungs. When such fibers reach the alveoli (air sacs) in the lung, where oxygen is transferred into the blood, the foreign bodies (asbestos fibers) cause the activation of the lung’s local immune system and provoke an inflammatory reaction. This inflammatory reaction can be described as chronic rather than acute, with a slow ongoing progression of the immune system in an attempt to eliminate the foreign fibers. Macrophages phagocytose (ingest) the fibers and stimulate fibroblasts to deposit connective tissue. Due to the asbestos fibers’ natural resistance to digestion, the macrophage dies off, releasing cytokines and attracting further lung macrophages and fibrolastic cells to lay down fibrous tissue, which eventually forms a fibrous mass. This mass can be seen microscopically, with the asbestos fiber layered by an iron-containing proteinaceous material (psammoma body). The result is interstitial fibrosis. The fibrotic scar tissue causes alveolar walls to thicken, which reduces elasticity and gas diffusion, reducing oxygen transfer to the blood as well as the removal of carbon dioxide.

So blunting them won’t make much difference. Consider – you can get a similar condition from fine non-fibrous particles that are small enough to get deep into the lungs. Eg, you can get silicosis from fine talcum powder. Talc particles aren’t fibrous, or particularly sharp – talc is a rather soft mineral, but it’s not digestible by the immune system.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis

Silicosis, (previously miner’s phthisis, grinder’s asthma, potter’s rot and other occupation-related names) is a form of occupational lung disease caused by inhalation of crystalline silica dust, and is marked by inflammation and scarring in the form of nodular lesions in the upper lobes of the lungs. It is a type of pneumoconiosis.

Silicosis (particularly the acute form) is characterized by shortness of breath, cough, fever, and cyanosis (bluish skin). It may often be misdiagnosed as pulmonary edema (fluid in the lungs), pneumonia, or tuberculosis.

The name silicosis (from the Latin silex, or flint) was originally used in 1870 by Achille Visconti (1836-1911), prosector in the Ospedale Maggiore of Milan. The recognition of respiratory problems from breathing in dust dates to ancient Greeks and Romans. Agricola, in the mid-16th century, wrote about lung problems from dust inhalation in miners. In 1713, Bernardino Ramazzini noted asthmatic symptoms and sand-like substances in the lungs of stone cutters. With industrialization, as opposed to hand tools, came increased production of dust. The pneumatic hammer drill was introduced in 1897 and sandblasting was introduced in about 1904, both significantly contributing to the increased prevalence of silicosis.

wookiemeister said:

every bugger is running around with plans to make nuclear weapons

they should have made sure that their scientists weren’t walking off and telling ANYONE how to make them.

the nuclear bombs secrets if kept secret would have certainly made for a more peaceful war – no cold war for example.

That’s not really addressing your previous claim, plus it is rubbish.

wookiemeister said:

you’d need to somehow stop the HF from spreading throughout the body

Quite. And how do you propose doing that? Magic?

PM 2Ring said:

So blunting them won’t make much difference. Consider – you can get a similar condition from fine non-fibrous particles that are small enough to get deep into the lungs. Eg, you can get silicosis from fine talcum powder. Talc particles aren’t fibrous, or particularly sharp – talc is a rather soft mineral, but it’s not digestible by the immune system.

I once shared a ward with a dentist who had problems from breathing tooth dust from drilling.

captain_spalding said:

Predictions at the time said that Russians, even without espionage, would have probably had their own A-bomb by 1952-53.

Indeed.

Wookie’s plan to keep nuclear knowledge secret would’ve only slowed down foreign development of nuclear weapons it certainly wouldn’t have prevented it.

> every bugger is running around with plans to make nuclear weapons

citation needed

> the nuclear bombs secrets if kept secret would have certainly made for a more peaceful war – no cold war for example.

citation needed

> few if any countries other than America would have had the bomb for many years

citation needed

> you don’t train anyone in nuclear matters unless they can be trusted – that means no foreign students waltzing in learning all about it and then returning to the mother country to start bomb production.

> its a very blunt way but effective

citation needed

Skunkworks said:

I once shared a ward with a dentist who had problems from breathing tooth dust from drilling.

I can believe it. And I vaguely remember you mentioning that previously.

captain_spalding said:

Predictions at the time said that Russians, even without espionage, would have probably had their own A-bomb by 1952-53.

Indeed. The knowledge was there and any quibbling about its effectiveness was ended in a very non secret way at Hiroshima. Once it was known that the general principles could make a bomb, even without espionage it was inevitable.

In fact, Rhodes opines that Berias fear of failure and spoofing actually held back the Soviet nukes program by holding them to old and copied designs when America especially was forging ahead.

PM 2Ring said:

Skunkworks said:

I once shared a ward with a dentist who had problems from breathing tooth dust from drilling.

I can believe it. And I vaguely remember you mentioning that previously.

Yup I have, he was a nice Scottish fellow who had a horrible time of it. Didn’t wear a face mask in the first three quarters of his job as no one (or at least Scottish dentistry) knew the risks.

PM 2Ring said:

wookiemeister said:

are the nerves in the lung actually nerves that transmit information back to the brain or nerves that just “do”?

AFAIK, all nerves in a body are part of a single network. But I Am Not An Anatomist.

wookiemeister said:

I was thinking that a milder solution could be used, one strong enough to blunt NOT totally dissolve the needle

the idea is that the needle once blunted stays where it is, it doesn’t move around any more causing more scarring because its blunted

I was thinking that a mild solution could be one strong enough to blunt the needle yet not damage nerves

The shape of asbestos fibres is only important because it means they are fine enough to penetrate deeply into the lungs. Once they get there they are detected as foreign bodies and are attacked by the immune system, which can immobilise the fibres but cannot digest them.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestosis#Pathogenesis

Asbestosis is the scarring of lung tissue (around terminal bronchioles and alveolar ducts) resulting from the inhalation of asbestos fibers. There are two types of fibers: amphibole (thin and straight) and serpentine (curved). The former are primarily responsible for human disease as they are able to penetrate deeply into the lungs. When such fibers reach the alveoli (air sacs) in the lung, where oxygen is transferred into the blood, the foreign bodies (asbestos fibers) cause the activation of the lung’s local immune system and provoke an inflammatory reaction. This inflammatory reaction can be described as chronic rather than acute, with a slow ongoing progression of the immune system in an attempt to eliminate the foreign fibers. Macrophages phagocytose (ingest) the fibers and stimulate fibroblasts to deposit connective tissue. Due to the asbestos fibers’ natural resistance to digestion, the macrophage dies off, releasing cytokines and attracting further lung macrophages and fibrolastic cells to lay down fibrous tissue, which eventually forms a fibrous mass. This mass can be seen microscopically, with the asbestos fiber layered by an iron-containing proteinaceous material (psammoma body). The result is interstitial fibrosis. The fibrotic scar tissue causes alveolar walls to thicken, which reduces elasticity and gas diffusion, reducing oxygen transfer to the blood as well as the removal of carbon dioxide.

So blunting them won’t make much difference. Consider – you can get a similar condition from fine non-fibrous particles that are small enough to get deep into the lungs. Eg, you can get silicosis from fine talcum powder. Talc particles aren’t fibrous, or particularly sharp – talc is a rather soft mineral, but it’s not digestible by the immune system.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis

Silicosis, (previously miner’s phthisis, grinder’s asthma, potter’s rot and other occupation-related names) is a form of occupational lung disease caused by inhalation of crystalline silica dust, and is marked by inflammation and scarring in the form of nodular lesions in the upper lobes of the lungs. It is a type of pneumoconiosis.

Silicosis (particularly the acute form) is characterized by shortness of breath, cough, fever, and cyanosis (bluish skin). It may often be misdiagnosed as pulmonary edema (fluid in the lungs), pneumonia, or tuberculosis.

The name silicosis (from the Latin silex, or flint) was originally used in 1870 by Achille Visconti (1836-1911), prosector in the Ospedale Maggiore of Milan. The recognition of respiratory problems from breathing in dust dates to ancient Greeks and Romans. Agricola, in the mid-16th century, wrote about lung problems from dust inhalation in miners. In 1713, Bernardino Ramazzini noted asthmatic symptoms and sand-like substances in the lungs of stone cutters. With industrialization, as opposed to hand tools, came increased production of dust. The pneumatic hammer drill was introduced in 1897 and sandblasting was introduced in about 1904, both significantly contributing to the increased prevalence of silicosis.

we were taught that its not just that they inhabit the lung but that the are very sharp, its the sharpness that allows them to move around causing more damage

PM 2Ring said:

Skunkworks said:

I once shared a ward with a dentist who had problems from breathing tooth dust from drilling.

I can believe it. And I vaguely remember you mentioning that previously.

Yeah, he never shuts up about it.

It does become tedious.

:)

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

every bugger is running around with plans to make nuclear weapons

they should have made sure that their scientists weren’t walking off and telling ANYONE how to make them.

the nuclear bombs secrets if kept secret would have certainly made for a more peaceful war – no cold war for example.

That’s not really addressing your previous claim, plus it is rubbish.

its not rubbish that making sure that other people can’t make nuclear weapons

they are very hard to make, everyone who has them after the yanks has them thanks to the yanks telling them how to make them

PM 2Ring said:

captain_spalding said:

Predictions at the time said that Russians, even without espionage, would have probably had their own A-bomb by 1952-53.

Indeed.

Wookie’s plan to keep nuclear knowledge secret would’ve only slowed down foreign development of nuclear weapons it certainly wouldn’t have prevented it.

it takes lots of money and time to make nuclear bombs

if it had slowed the Russians enough then chances are they would have adopted a different tone to the west instead of belligerence

the yanks even though they had the bomb wouldn’t have attacked and the Russians might have reasoned that they had no designs on mother Russia ie an invasion. the eastern block was designed to thwart another invasion from the west. the idea was that an invasion would be thwarted by having allied nations to Russia fighting and slowing an invasion from reaching Russia

consider this even in the 1950s WW2 was still a reality on the ground, by not invading even though you had the balance of power would have cooled tensions.

wookiemeister said:

they are very hard to make, everyone who has them after the yanks has them thanks to the yanks telling them how to make them

Bombs are not hard to make. Processing to making the bombs is hard and the yanks tried two different methods to ensure success.

And once more, it doesn’t need the yanks to tell anyone how to make them. If they can process they can already make. After that it is physics, you dont need to be told, for those smart enough, once a bomb had been exploded and confirmed theory you don’t need anyone else. A nation state with scientific resources can figure it out by itself.

wookiemeister said:

its not rubbish that making sure that other people can’t make nuclear weapons

they are very hard to make, everyone who has them after the yanks has them thanks to the yanks telling them how to make them

Yes, it’s hard to make good ones, but you can still make a mess with an inferior atomic weapon. Keeping the knowledge secret won’t prevent other people with sufficient motivation from eventually figuring it out for themselves.

Russia had some pretty clever bunnies of its own, even back in the 50s e.g. Andrei Sakharov.

Give them the right stuff, they’d have got it to go bang in short order, espionage or no.

wookiemeister said:

the yanks even though they had the bomb wouldn’t have attacked and the Russians might have reasoned that they had no designs on mother Russia ie an invasion. the eastern block was designed to thwart another invasion from the west. the idea was that an invasion would be thwarted by having allied nations to Russia fighting and slowing an invasion from reaching Russia

Oh jeeze, not only is this crap you are ignoring history, the different perspectives of a European War from a Russian (Soviet) viewpoint and the paranoia of Stalin.

Wookie think less, read more.

PM 2Ring said:

> every bugger is running around with plans to make nuclear weapons

citation needed

why do you think they are worried about plans for 3d handguns, now translate this kind of thinking to nuclear weapons

> the nuclear bombs secrets if kept secret would have certainly made for a more peaceful war – no cold war for example.

citation needed
===

if the enemy has a more powerful weapon than you are you going to make war upon them? nations engage in war when they figure they can win. if someone has a bigger stick than you are you going to pick a fight with them. in London the two blokes who stabbed that bloke to death did so only after ramming him with a car, they didn’t want to take him on if there was a chance they might get hurt whilst doing it and failing in their objective.

> few if any countries other than America would have had the bomb for many years

citation needed
teller marched over to Israel and gave them the bomb, the Israelis were caught red handed selling this technology to the south Africans after the ANC came to power and opened up the previously secret files. the yanks were helping other countries develop nuclear technology/ weapons and missile technology. pakistan’s nuclear missile programme was all thanks to the yanks.

> you don’t train anyone in nuclear matters unless they can be trusted – that means no foreign students waltzing in learning all about it and then returning to the mother country to start bomb production.

> its a very blunt way but effective

citation needed
if you don’t teach them you’ll force them to make their own research – all time consuming and annoying.

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

they are very hard to make, everyone who has them after the yanks has them thanks to the yanks telling them how to make them

Bombs are not hard to make. Processing to making the bombs is hard and the yanks tried two different methods to ensure success.

And once more, it doesn’t need the yanks to tell anyone how to make them. If they can process they can already make. After that it is physics, you dont need to be told, for those smart enough, once a bomb had been exploded and confirmed theory you don’t need anyone else. A nation state with scientific resources can figure it out by itself.

it takes time and lots of money to make nuclear weapons.

it was no mean feat to make the bomb

if nations are forced to do it all from first principles all they would need is a collection of genius to know exactly what they were doing and why

the german scientists decided to stall permanently, they weren’t prepared to make the bomb for germany

PM 2Ring said:

wookiemeister said:

its not rubbish that making sure that other people can’t make nuclear weapons

they are very hard to make, everyone who has them after the yanks has them thanks to the yanks telling them how to make them

Yes, it’s hard to make good ones, but you can still make a mess with an inferior atomic weapon. Keeping the knowledge secret won’t prevent other people with sufficient motivation from eventually figuring it out for themselves.

it will seriously hinder and discourage

captain_spalding said:

Russia had some pretty clever bunnies of its own, even back in the 50s e.g. Andrei Sakharov.

Give them the right stuff, they’d have got it to go bang in short order, espionage or no.

well people say this

if they were so smart how come the yanks got their first?

the Russians never made it to the moon

sure they had all the resources, all of the brains

it didn’t help them

when America got to the moon first the jig was up psychoogically

wookiemeister said:

it takes time and lots of money to make nuclear weapons.

it was no mean feat to make the bomb

Fluff, though I take your initial point that espionage reduces the magnitude of the feat.

wookiemeister said:

If nations are forced to do it all from first principles all they would need is a collection of genius to know exactly what they were doing and why

Yes, and is there a point other than accepting that you need intelligent people to do it? AFAIK they are not limited by country.

one thing that has always made me wonder is this

given that nuclear weapons produce produce such horrible by products, i’m surprised they never decided to test nuclear bombs in space

if you could produce a spacecraft that could carry them out away from the earth and set them off there rather than on earth

you could examine the blast from all angles

wookiemeister said:

the Russians never made it to the moon

sure they had all the resources, all of the brains

it didn’t help them

when America got to the moon first the jig was up psychoogically

Didn’t help them? FFS, they got to the moon multiple times and not only that robotically removed moonrocks and returned them to Earth. They were not dim.

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

it takes time and lots of money to make nuclear weapons.

it was no mean feat to make the bomb

Fluff, though I take your initial point that espionage reduces the magnitude of the feat.

wookiemeister said:

If nations are forced to do it all from first principles all they would need is a collection of genius to know exactly what they were doing and why

Yes, and is there a point other than accepting that you need intelligent people to do it? AFAIK they are not limited by country.

if they are as good as we keep being told they are then they’d have no problems making them by themselves

they should have restricted various studies to vetted students

the Russians would have buckleys if it weren’t for the spies

fuchs was going off for drives all the time, Feynman mentions it in his book

wookiemeister said:

one thing that has always made me wonder is this

given that nuclear weapons produce produce such horrible by products, i’m surprised they never decided to test nuclear bombs in space

if you could produce a spacecraft that could carry them out away from the earth and set them off there rather than on earth

you could examine the blast from all angles

Except you would get the results of what the blast is like in space, and not what is like where you intend to use it.

And if wookie had a clue he would understand that Americas declaration to walk on the moon was to get the Bay of Pigs amd Berlin backdown fiasco off the headlines. At the time, the USSSR was well ahead in the space race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

Starfish Prime was a high-altitude nuclear test conducted by the United States of America on July 9, 1962, a joint effort of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and the Defense Atomic Support Agency (which became the Defense Nuclear Agency in 1971).

Launched via a Thor rocket and carrying a W49 thermonuclear warhead (manufactured by Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory) and a Mk. 2 reentry vehicle, the explosion took place 250 miles (400 km) above a point 19 miles (31 km) southwest of Johnston Island in the Pacific Ocean. It was one of five tests conducted by the USA in outer space as defined by the FAI. It produced a yield equivalent to 1.4 megatons of TNT.

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

the Russians never made it to the moon

sure they had all the resources, all of the brains

it didn’t help them

when America got to the moon first the jig was up psychoogically

Didn’t help them? FFS, they got to the moon multiple times and not only that robotically removed moonrocks and returned them to Earth. They were not dim.

but not a man

its much easier to send a machine

the yanks sent a man which is the measure by all acheivements are measured

this is the psychological war between the two parties.

after Apollo 11 all the Russians had was a pile of smoking scrap, they abandoned the manned moon mission because they couldn’t do it.

perhaps one reason was that because it was so big, even though they might have been able to steal info, there was so much of it that without someone finding relevance in it , it was incomprehensible

Stealth said:

wookiemeister said:

one thing that has always made me wonder is this

given that nuclear weapons produce produce such horrible by products, i’m surprised they never decided to test nuclear bombs in space

if you could produce a spacecraft that could carry them out away from the earth and set them off there rather than on earth

you could examine the blast from all angles

Except you would get the results of what the blast is like in space, and not what is like where you intend to use it.

well they go for yield

the yield I think is the main thing they want

they’d already worked out that air burst does most damage

all you do then is keep building bigger yield from smaller devices

Skunkworks said:

And if wookie had a clue he would understand that Americas declaration to walk on the moon was to get the Bay of Pigs amd Berlin backdown fiasco off the headlines. At the time, the USSSR was well ahead in the space race.

the Russians never made it to the moon

talking of similar things no one but the british was ever able to build a super sonic passenger aircraft

concorde to this day remains the only one that was ever built – the Russians weren’t able to get their hands on the information they needed

wookiemeister said:

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

the Russians never made it to the moon

sure they had all the resources, all of the brains

it didn’t help them

when America got to the moon first the jig was up psychoogically

Didn’t help them? FFS, they got to the moon multiple times and not only that robotically removed moonrocks and returned them to Earth. They were not dim.

but not a man

its much easier to send a machine

the yanks sent a man which is the measure by all acheivements are measured

this is the psychological war between the two parties.

after Apollo 11 all the Russians had was a pile of smoking scrap, they abandoned the manned moon mission because they couldn’t do it.

perhaps one reason was that because it was so big, even though they might have been able to steal info, there was so much of it that without someone finding relevance in it , it was incomprehensible

Goalposts shifting? Seems to be a constant and annoying pattern with you. You claim some rubbish, then when confronted with other details or information you back pedal to a totally different argument. In this thread alone you have made 5 or so errors of fact and comprehension.

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4797.htm

Treaty Banning Nuclear Weapon Tests in the Atmosphere, in Outer Space and Under Water

Bureau of Arms Control, Verification and Compliance

Signed at Moscow August 5, 1963
Entered into force October 10, 1963

The Test Ban Treaty of 1963 prohibits nuclear weapons tests “or any other nuclear explosion” in the atmosphere, in outer space, and under water. While not banning tests underground, the Treaty does prohibit nuclear explosions in this environment if they cause “radioactive debris to be present outside the territorial limits of the State under whose jurisdiction or control” the explosions were conducted. In accepting limitations on testing, the nuclear powers accepted as a common goal “an end to the contamination of man’s environment by radioactive substances.”

the Russians were trying to infiltrate the concorde project via the unions and the friendly helpers inside them at the time

the unions were a conduit for the KGB but they weren’t the only route, they were actively infiltrating the masons and old school networks to get info

the book spycatcher said that the boss of the british secret service at the time was a russian spy

Skunkworks said:

wookiemeister said:

Skunkworks said:

Didn’t help them? FFS, they got to the moon multiple times and not only that robotically removed moonrocks and returned them to Earth. They were not dim.

but not a man

its much easier to send a machine

the yanks sent a man which is the measure by all acheivements are measured

this is the psychological war between the two parties.

after Apollo 11 all the Russians had was a pile of smoking scrap, they abandoned the manned moon mission because they couldn’t do it.

perhaps one reason was that because it was so big, even though they might have been able to steal info, there was so much of it that without someone finding relevance in it , it was incomprehensible

Goalposts shifting? Seems to be a constant and annoying pattern with you. You claim some rubbish, then when confronted with other details or information you back pedal to a totally different argument. In this thread alone you have made 5 or so errors of fact and comprehension.

whens the last time the Russians went to the moon

PM 2Ring said:

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4797.htm

Treaty Banning Nuclear Weapon Tests in the Atmosphere, in Outer Space and Under Water

Bureau of Arms Control, Verification and Compliance

Signed at Moscow August 5, 1963
Entered into force October 10, 1963

The Test Ban Treaty of 1963 prohibits nuclear weapons tests “or any other nuclear explosion” in the atmosphere, in outer space, and under water. While not banning tests underground, the Treaty does prohibit nuclear explosions in this environment if they cause “radioactive debris to be present outside the territorial limits of the State under whose jurisdiction or control” the explosions were conducted. In accepting limitations on testing, the nuclear powers accepted as a common goal “an end to the contamination of man’s environment by radioactive substances.”

seems a very dirty way of testing by testing here

the French were letting off nuclear bombs on our door step only a few years ago

PM 2Ring said:

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4797.htm

Treaty Banning Nuclear Weapon Tests in the Atmosphere, in Outer Space and Under Water

Bureau of Arms Control, Verification and Compliance

Signed at Moscow August 5, 1963
Entered into force October 10, 1963

The Test Ban Treaty of 1963 prohibits nuclear weapons tests “or any other nuclear explosion” in the atmosphere, in outer space, and under water. While not banning tests underground, the Treaty does prohibit nuclear explosions in this environment if they cause “radioactive debris to be present outside the territorial limits of the State under whose jurisdiction or control” the explosions were conducted. In accepting limitations on testing, the nuclear powers accepted as a common goal “an end to the contamination of man’s environment by radioactive substances.”

To be fair the Chinese and the cheese eating surrender monkeys didn’t pay much attention to that.

if asio had been a little more careful then they wouldn’t have let the plans to their building fall into the wrong plans

I’ve grown tired all of these supposed “experts” and take them with a pinch of salt

no military project should be run without watchers on the ground during construction and testing to learn the flaws in the project

they found some kid unconscious in the basement of the asio building when it was being built, that should have rung alarm bells that there was little to no security

if a kid could get in their someone else could get in there and possibly listen in for decades

who makes a security building from glass?

well I’ve certainly managed to wring out some mileage out of this thread

its just a bit sad that we lost our way in the thread and didn’t stay sinister enough

just had to have a bite to eat

i’m having to eat for two now that I’ve started my phantom pregnancy