So bats are placental mammals right, does this mean that they are the only placental mammals to inhabit Australia pre-European contact? When did they arrive?
Beside the dingo.
Rodents and cetaceans too.
And humans
And humans.
IIRC, bats and rodents pre-date humans in Australia, which pre-date canines.
*I typed my ‘And humans.’ before I saw BEART’s.
OCDC said:
And humans.IIRC, bats and rodents pre-date humans in Australia, which pre-date canines.
Witty said pre-European
I saw a doco once that claims people inhabited Australia before cap’n cook arrived
OCDC said:
*I typed my ‘And humans.’ before I saw BEART’s.
I’m as SMRT as a Doktard. And quicker
Which rodents are native to Australia? I thought we only had things like kangaroo mice?
Dropbear said:
OCDC said:
And humans.IIRC, bats and rodents pre-date humans in Australia, which pre-date canines.
Witty said pre-European
I saw a doco once that claims people inhabited Australia before cap’n cook arrived
Witty Rejoinder said:
Which rodents are native to Australia? I thought we only had things like kangaroo mice?
The fifty billion species of native rodents like Bilbys etc
Witty Rejoinder said:
Which rodents are native to Australia? I thought we only had things like kangaroo mice?
Dropbear said:
The fifty billion species of native rodents like Bilbys etc
Well that’s my learning for the day. I thought we only had marsupial mice.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Dropbear said:
The fifty billion species of native rodents like Bilbys etc
Well that’s my learning for the day. I thought we only had marsupial mice.
Most niches occupied by rodents elsewhere are occupied by marsupials here.
Dropbear said:
I saw a doco once that claims people inhabited Australia before cap’n cook arrived
BabaKiueria (also known under the video-title BabaKiueria (Barbeque Area)) is a 1986 Australian satirical film on relations between Indigenous Australians and Australians of European descent.Synopsis
The opening scene depicts a group of uniformed Indigenous Australians coming ashore in a small boat, watched by various European Australians engaged in typical beachside activities. The group from the boat approaches one of these and asks, “What do you call this place?”, receiving the reply, “Er… ‘Barbecue Area’.”
The plot revolves around a role-reversal, whereby it is the Indigenous Australians who have invaded the land of stereotypical European Australians – the fictitious country of BabaKiueria. It presents many contemporary Aboriginal issues including white people as a minority, the unequal treatment of whites by the police, white children are taken from their families or white people being moved because the government needs their home for “something”. The paternalistic policies of the BabaKiueria government are defended by Wagwan, the Minister for White Affairs (Bob Maza).
BabaKiueria
I remember this. It’s brilliant.
OCDC said:
Rodents and cetaceans too.
cetaceans aren’t really terrestrial and considered continental fauna
hhhhhhhhhhhhhh didn’t pacifically say terrestrial.
Witty Rejoinder said:
So bats are placental mammals right, does this mean that they are the only placental mammals to inhabit Australia pre-European contact? When did they arrive?
No. There’s rodents. Bats go way bay to the Oligocene Miocene (Riversleigh fossils, ),
Oldest micreochiropteran
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Australonycteris-clarkae
Eocene critter.
Eocene! That’s pretty darn early times for battypoos.
I thought Michael V would be all over this thread like a rash with subfossil cave deposits and the digs at Riversleigh.
OCDC said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Dropbear said:
The fifty billion species of native rodents like Bilbys etc
Well that’s my learning for the day. I thought we only had marsupial mice.
Don’t LEARN from BEART.Most niches occupied by rodents elsewhere are occupied by marsupials here.
They’re so fickle.
neomyrtus_ said:
No. There’s rodents. Bats go way bay to the Oligocene Miocene (Riversleigh fossils, ),
Oldest micreochiropteran
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Australonycteris-clarkae
Eocene critter.Eocene! That’s pretty darn early times for battypoos.
Thanks Neo. So they’ve been here a long, long time.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Dropbear said:
The fifty billion species of native rodents like Bilbys etc
Well that’s my learning for the day. I thought we only had marsupial mice.
good God…. where do you start?
buffy said:
BabaKiueriaI remember this. It’s brilliant.
I’d almost forgotten about it, but somehow was reminded of it a week or so ago. Thank goodness for YouTube. :)
Witty Rejoinder said:
neomyrtus_ said:No. There’s rodents. Bats go way bay to the Oligocene Miocene (Riversleigh fossils, ),
Oldest micreochiropteran
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Australonycteris-clarkae
Eocene critter.Eocene! That’s pretty darn early times for battypoos.
Thanks Neo. So they’ve been here a long, long time.
Here and NZ – and bats aren’t a homogenous group – you have to break it down to which lineages are old or recent lineages.
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Brachipposideros-nooraleebus
neomyrtus_ said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
Dropbear said:
The fifty billion species of native rodents like Bilbys etc
Well that’s my learning for the day. I thought we only had marsupial mice.
good God…. where do you start?
A journey of a thousand miles begins in the Qantas Club bar
At the beginning, conventionally, although non-linear narrative structures can be powerful if used to good effect.
Bbqarea rocks.
http://www.create.unsw.edu.au/research/files/Hand%20et%20al%20%282005%29%20Australian%20Oligo-Miocene%20Mystacinids%20%28Microchiroptera%29%20upper%20dentition,%20new%20taxa%20and%20divergence%20of%20New%20Zealand%20species.pdf
Hipposideridae, Megadermatidae, Molossidae,Vespertilionidae and Mystacinidae in the – Oligocene – Miocene sediments, Pliocene sees appearance of Emballonuridae. Megachioptera appear much later (can’t remember if its late Miocene or Pliocene).
anyhoo – your rats and mice are more recent introductions from the north – Pliocene – Pleistocene. Abundant and diverse they are too, once they got in. From those huge tree rats of the tropics and those water rats (Hydromys) to the wee mice of the arid regions (little ash greys with their doe-eyes, sandy inlands, pebble mound mice and Notomys and such)….
neomyrtus_ said:
.
I thought Michael V would be all over this thread like a rash with subfossil cave deposits and the digs at Riversleigh.
:)
You’re doing exceptionally well – so I’ll leave it alone. :)
Michael V said:
You’re doing exceptionally well – so I’ll leave it alone. :)
My thoughts exactly.
the op title could describe my relationship with my kids mother
we’re the bats of Australia -oh oh ohhhh
we’re the bats of Australia -oh oh ohhh
everybat live for the music go round
neomyrtus_ said:
where are the wings???
> So bats are placental mammals right, does this mean that they are the only placental mammals to inhabit Australia pre-European contact? When did they arrive?
OK, so you already have your answer of “what” placental mammals arrived, bats and rodents, then human and finally dingo.
But I didn’t see an answer to “when”.
Rodents arrived in two waves. Wikipedia lists 48 species of old endemic rodents in Australia that have survived to the present day, all Murinae, as well as 9 extinct species. There are also 7 species of new endemic rodents. All 64 species are pre-European.
The earliest Murinae fossils are 14 million years old, so the first rodent invasion of Australia would be more recent than that. A figure of 5 million years has been suggested.
The new endemic rodents arrived after the creation of the first true rat “Rattus” which occurred about 2.7 million years ago. So some time after that. All the species are endemic to east of the Wallace line, so I’d say some time before 1 million years ago.
Bats in Australia include megabats (Pteropodidae / flying fox / fruit bat) and microbats. The microbats are further divided into Ghost bat (Megadermatidae), Leaf-nosed bats (Rhinolophidae), Sheath-tailed bats (Emballonuridae), Free-tailed bats (Molossidae) and Vespertilionidae. Almost all species are endemic. But not one of these bat families is endemic. This allows me to put a hard upper limit on when Vespertilionidae arrived in Australia at 43 million years because the family didn’t separate before then. The separation into different endemic species suggests they arrived in Australia more than 1 million year ago.
That’s a wider time range than I like. I’ll see if I can narrow it down a bit more using http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2011/03/16/introducing-vesper-bats/ with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bats_of_Australia
The Large-footed Bat (Myotis adversus) arrived in Australia some time after Myotis separated from other Vespertilionidae, about 20 million years ago. That’s about the best I can do for an upper limit on bat immigration time.
Hold on! I can do better than that. One of the oldest bat fossils in the world was found in Australia. “The oldest fossil bats known in the world are microbat fossils. Fossil teeth found at Murgon, Queensland, Australia, dated to 55 million years … The rich Australian fossil beds at Riversleigh in north-west Queensland contain many microbat fossils up to 25 million years old. … Megabat fossils have not yet been found in Australia.” from http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/plants-and-animals/flying-foxes-home-page/flying-fox-faqs
More on the Riversleigh bat 25 million years ago. See if this image works.
Brachipposideros nooraleebus, an Old World leaf-nosed bat from the Australian Miocene, was the first Australian fossil bat named and the first Brachipposideros species found outside of France. It was discovered at Riversleigh in northwest Queensland, where its bones have been found in the thousands. The Orange Leaf-nosed Bat Rhinonycteris aurantius, a close relative, still lives in caves in the area today.
Brachipposideros nooraleebus is known only from the Riversleigh World Heritage Fossil Site in northwest Queensland. Other Brachipposideros species are known from the Oligocene and Miocene of western Europe and northern Africa.
See more at: http://australianmuseum.net.au/Brachipposideros-nooraleebus#sthash.Qr0IP4OM.dpuf
mollwollfumble said:
> So bats are placental mammals right, does this mean that they are the only placental mammals to inhabit Australia pre-European contact? When did they arrive?OK, so you already have your answer of “what” placental mammals arrived, bats and rodents, then human and finally dingo.
But I didn’t see an answer to “when”.
Rodents arrived in two waves. Wikipedia lists 48 species of old endemic rodents in Australia that have survived to the present day, all Murinae, as well as 9 extinct species. There are also 7 species of new endemic rodents. All 64 species are pre-European.
The earliest Murinae fossils are 14 million years old, so the first rodent invasion of Australia would be more recent than that. A figure of 5 million years has been suggested.
The new endemic rodents arrived after the creation of the first true rat “Rattus” which occurred about 2.7 million years ago. So some time after that. All the species are endemic to east of the Wallace line, so I’d say some time before 1 million years ago.
Bats in Australia include megabats (Pteropodidae / flying fox / fruit bat) and microbats. The microbats are further divided into Ghost bat (Megadermatidae), Leaf-nosed bats (Rhinolophidae), Sheath-tailed bats (Emballonuridae), Free-tailed bats (Molossidae) and Vespertilionidae. Almost all species are endemic. But not one of these bat families is endemic. This allows me to put a hard upper limit on when Vespertilionidae arrived in Australia at 43 million years because the family didn’t separate before then. The separation into different endemic species suggests they arrived in Australia more than 1 million year ago.
That’s a wider time range than I like. I’ll see if I can narrow it down a bit more using http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2011/03/16/introducing-vesper-bats/ with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bats_of_Australia
The Large-footed Bat (Myotis adversus) arrived in Australia some time after Myotis separated from other Vespertilionidae, about 20 million years ago. That’s about the best I can do for an upper limit on bat immigration time.
Hold on! I can do better than that. One of the oldest bat fossils in the world was found in Australia. “The oldest fossil bats known in the world are microbat fossils. Fossil teeth found at Murgon, Queensland, Australia, dated to 55 million years … The rich Australian fossil beds at Riversleigh in north-west Queensland contain many microbat fossils up to 25 million years old. … Megabat fossils have not yet been found in Australia.” from http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/plants-and-animals/flying-foxes-home-page/flying-fox-faqs
There is a fossil found in Australia dating back in excess of 100 million years, but apparently died out leaving only the marsupials and monotremes, so long before the bats arrived. I’ll see if I can find a reference.
PermeateFree said:
mollwollfumble said:
> So bats are placental mammals right, does this mean that they are the only placental mammals to inhabit Australia pre-European contact? When did they arrive?OK, so you already have your answer of “what” placental mammals arrived, bats and rodents, then human and finally dingo.
But I didn’t see an answer to “when”.
Rodents arrived in two waves. Wikipedia lists 48 species of old endemic rodents in Australia that have survived to the present day, all Murinae, as well as 9 extinct species. There are also 7 species of new endemic rodents. All 64 species are pre-European.
The earliest Murinae fossils are 14 million years old, so the first rodent invasion of Australia would be more recent than that. A figure of 5 million years has been suggested.
The new endemic rodents arrived after the creation of the first true rat “Rattus” which occurred about 2.7 million years ago. So some time after that. All the species are endemic to east of the Wallace line, so I’d say some time before 1 million years ago.
Bats in Australia include megabats (Pteropodidae / flying fox / fruit bat) and microbats. The microbats are further divided into Ghost bat (Megadermatidae), Leaf-nosed bats (Rhinolophidae), Sheath-tailed bats (Emballonuridae), Free-tailed bats (Molossidae) and Vespertilionidae. Almost all species are endemic. But not one of these bat families is endemic. This allows me to put a hard upper limit on when Vespertilionidae arrived in Australia at 43 million years because the family didn’t separate before then. The separation into different endemic species suggests they arrived in Australia more than 1 million year ago.
That’s a wider time range than I like. I’ll see if I can narrow it down a bit more using http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2011/03/16/introducing-vesper-bats/ with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bats_of_Australia
The Large-footed Bat (Myotis adversus) arrived in Australia some time after Myotis separated from other Vespertilionidae, about 20 million years ago. That’s about the best I can do for an upper limit on bat immigration time.
Hold on! I can do better than that. One of the oldest bat fossils in the world was found in Australia. “The oldest fossil bats known in the world are microbat fossils. Fossil teeth found at Murgon, Queensland, Australia, dated to 55 million years … The rich Australian fossil beds at Riversleigh in north-west Queensland contain many microbat fossils up to 25 million years old. … Megabat fossils have not yet been found in Australia.” from http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/plants-and-animals/flying-foxes-home-page/flying-fox-faqs
There is a fossil found in Australia dating back in excess of 100 million years, but apparently died out leaving only the marsupials and monotremes, so long before the bats arrived. I’ll see if I can find a reference.
Here it is!
‘Sensational new find at Dinosaur Cove’
http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/rich/tomrich.htm
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
mollwollfumble said:
> So bats are placental mammals right, does this mean that they are the only placental mammals to inhabit Australia pre-European contact? When did they arrive?OK, so you already have your answer of “what” placental mammals arrived, bats and rodents, then human and finally dingo.
But I didn’t see an answer to “when”.
Rodents arrived in two waves. Wikipedia lists 48 species of old endemic rodents in Australia that have survived to the present day, all Murinae, as well as 9 extinct species. There are also 7 species of new endemic rodents. All 64 species are pre-European.
The earliest Murinae fossils are 14 million years old, so the first rodent invasion of Australia would be more recent than that. A figure of 5 million years has been suggested.
The new endemic rodents arrived after the creation of the first true rat “Rattus” which occurred about 2.7 million years ago. So some time after that. All the species are endemic to east of the Wallace line, so I’d say some time before 1 million years ago.
Bats in Australia include megabats (Pteropodidae / flying fox / fruit bat) and microbats. The microbats are further divided into Ghost bat (Megadermatidae), Leaf-nosed bats (Rhinolophidae), Sheath-tailed bats (Emballonuridae), Free-tailed bats (Molossidae) and Vespertilionidae. Almost all species are endemic. But not one of these bat families is endemic. This allows me to put a hard upper limit on when Vespertilionidae arrived in Australia at 43 million years because the family didn’t separate before then. The separation into different endemic species suggests they arrived in Australia more than 1 million year ago.
That’s a wider time range than I like. I’ll see if I can narrow it down a bit more using http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2011/03/16/introducing-vesper-bats/ with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bats_of_Australia
The Large-footed Bat (Myotis adversus) arrived in Australia some time after Myotis separated from other Vespertilionidae, about 20 million years ago. That’s about the best I can do for an upper limit on bat immigration time.
Hold on! I can do better than that. One of the oldest bat fossils in the world was found in Australia. “The oldest fossil bats known in the world are microbat fossils. Fossil teeth found at Murgon, Queensland, Australia, dated to 55 million years … The rich Australian fossil beds at Riversleigh in north-west Queensland contain many microbat fossils up to 25 million years old. … Megabat fossils have not yet been found in Australia.” from http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/plants-and-animals/flying-foxes-home-page/flying-fox-faqs
There is a fossil found in Australia dating back in excess of 100 million years, but apparently died out leaving only the marsupials and monotremes, so long before the bats arrived. I’ll see if I can find a reference.
Here it is!
‘Sensational new find at Dinosaur Cove’
http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/rich/tomrich.htm
I’ve seen that fossil. The Melbourne Museum keeps it in a safe, you have to request special access. This is the jawbone with teeth of a mammal from the times of the dinosaurs.
I met Tom Rich once, a strange very forthright fellow with a strong American accent that was accentuated by the wearing of fancy cowboy boots.
Just for entertainment, the traditional sub-orders (megachiropteran aka megabat /microchiropteran aka microbat ) are under review.
from wiki –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat
Consequently, two new suborders based on molecular data have been proposed. The new suborder Yinpterochiroptera includes the Pteropodidae or megabat family, as well as the Rhinolophidae, Hipposideridae, Craseonycteridae, Megadermatidae, and Rhinopomatidae families. The new suborder Yangochiroptera includes all the remaining families of bats (all of which use laryngeal echolocation). These two new suborders are strongly supported by statistical tests. Teeling (2005) found 100% bootstrap support in all maximum likelihood analyses for the division of Chiroptera into these two modified suborders. This conclusion is further supported by a 15-base-pair deletion in BRCA1 and a seven-base-pair deletion in PLCB4 present in all Yangochiroptera and absent in all Yinpterochiroptera. The chiropteran phylogeny based on molecular evidence is controversial because microbat paraphyly implies one of two seemingly unlikely hypotheses occurred. The first suggests laryngeal echolocation evolved twice in Chiroptera, once in Yangochiroptera and once in the rhinolophoids. The second proposes laryngeal echolocation had a single origin in Chiroptera, was subsequently lost in the family Pteropodidae (all megabats), and later evolved as a system of tongue-clicking in the genus Rousettus
the two new proposed suborders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangochiroptera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinpterochiroptera
I think the two sub-orders are likely to get a kick along with proposed renaming to Vespertilioniformes and Pteropodiformes which more clearly describes what families are included.