An ad got me thinking. I have used an office guillotine and you cannot cut too thick an amount of paper, it tends to fan out the lower ones and you get a dodgy cut. I accept you can brace it to prevent that.

But what about the big industrial ones, how do they convert those huge rolls into A4 etc. Even keeping the blades sharp enough whilst spending a day constantly cutting would be an issue.

But what about the big industrial ones, how do they convert those huge rolls into A4 etc. Even keeping the blades sharp enough whilst spending a day constantly cutting would be an issue.
———————————————————

Well they splice the sheet into long grain A4 or short grain A3 or long grain A2…

Then cut.

And sharpen the blades as needed.

Skunkworks said:

But what about the big industrial ones, how do they convert those huge rolls into A4 etc. Even keeping the blades sharp enough whilst spending a day constantly cutting would be an issue.

The rolls are cut as they come out of the press. The guillotines don’t need sharpening and they have a limit of how many sheets can be put through simultaneously. The one at the press I worked for had a 3metre piece of glass with measurements etched into it for projecting onto the paper to line up your cut. That piece of glass was the only thng in the factory you were warned about. $25000 to replace in the very early 90’s.

Don’t know about rolls, but on large guillotines a bar comes down and clamps tightly on the paper before it’s cut

so wait a minute the paper is rolled up and then unrolled and cut as its unrolled?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The rolls are cut as they come out of the press. The guillotines don’t need sharpening and they have a limit of how many sheets can be put through simultaneously. The one at the press I worked for had a 3metre piece of glass with measurements etched into it for projecting onto the paper to line up your cut. That piece of glass was the only thng in the factory you were warned about. $25000 to replace in the very early 90’s.

So the pages of a book would be written on a single roll then cut to pages? How does it get collated and why don’t the guillotines need sharpening or are they self sharpening like rodent teeth or something?

in the workshop we were warned NOT to cut paper in the metal sheet guillotine because it blunted the balde

one would assume that the blade that cuts paper must be slightly different and able to retain its sharpness, presumably this is why all printing presses are housed in pyramidal buildings

Skunkworks said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The rolls are cut as they come out of the press. The guillotines don’t need sharpening and they have a limit of how many sheets can be put through simultaneously. The one at the press I worked for had a 3metre piece of glass with measurements etched into it for projecting onto the paper to line up your cut. That piece of glass was the only thng in the factory you were warned about. $25000 to replace in the very early 90’s.

So the pages of a book would be written on a single roll then cut to pages? How does it get collated and why don’t the guillotines need sharpening or are they self sharpening like rodent teeth or something?

They will have a certain number of pages to print per roll depending what will fit across the roll. The press chops off predetermined sizes(usually A2) and the rest is guillotined.

In the time that I was there I didn’t see a blade replaced, which is the procedure. Sharpening will promote an uneven edge that might misalign cuts.

wookiemeister said:

in the workshop we were warned NOT to cut paper in the metal sheet guillotine because it blunted the balde

one would assume that the blade that cuts paper must be slightly different and able to retain its sharpness, presumably this is why all printing presses are housed in pyramidal buildings

Am fairly sure that guillotines are tuned to the sheer pressure they are applied to.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Skunkworks said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

The rolls are cut as they come out of the press. The guillotines don’t need sharpening and they have a limit of how many sheets can be put through simultaneously. The one at the press I worked for had a 3metre piece of glass with measurements etched into it for projecting onto the paper to line up your cut. That piece of glass was the only thng in the factory you were warned about. $25000 to replace in the very early 90’s.

So the pages of a book would be written on a single roll then cut to pages? How does it get collated and why don’t the guillotines need sharpening or are they self sharpening like rodent teeth or something?

They will have a certain number of pages to print per roll depending what will fit across the roll. The press chops off predetermined sizes(usually A2) and the rest is guillotined.

In the time that I was there I didn’t see a blade replaced, which is the procedure. Sharpening will promote an uneven edge that might misalign cuts.

y

I wonder if cutting it with a laser would be easier

wookiemeister said:

in the workshop we were warned NOT to cut paper in the metal sheet guillotine because it blunted the balde

one would assume that the blade that cuts paper must be slightly different and able to retain its sharpness, presumably this is why all printing presses are housed in pyramidal buildings

adjusted might be more appropriate than tuned

I still don’t understand how a balde that in an industrial application is cutting 8 hours a day doesn’t need sharpening or replacing.

So the pages of a book would be written on a single roll then cut to pages? How does it get collated and why don’t the guillotines need sharpening or are they self sharpening like rodent teeth or something?
————————————————————-

Depends…

Large run books are done insections, 32 pages. Might be a produte of 2 folded…

You can see this in old books, 1a, 2b, ect. this helps the collatting system to keep track.

Foldded sections are combined and the outer parts cleaned off, to make them loose leaf.

Magazines page Nos are consticted to the method.

Mr Ironic said:

So the pages of a book would be written on a single roll then cut to pages? How does it get collated and why don’t the guillotines need sharpening or are they self sharpening like rodent teeth or something?
————————————————————-

Depends…

Large run books are done insections, 32 pages. Might be a produte of 2 folded…

You can see this in old books, 1a, 2b, ect. this helps the collatting system to keep track.

Foldded sections are combined and the outer parts cleaned off, to make them loose leaf.

Magazines page Nos are consticted to the method.

All interesting, cheers, I have been trying to figure how I would design it and am clueless. Hell even a photocopy feed gets problems and these systems are a lot bigger and presumably faster than that.

Skunkworks said:

I still don’t understand how a balde that in an industrial application is cutting 8 hours a day doesn’t need sharpening or replacing.

hmm, the guillotine at Clark and Mackay didn’t work that hard. A large part of it is the clamp. The part that you want to keep is pressed tight so that is basically a solid block. The loose bits that you are cutting off don’t offer much resistance.

Skunkworks said:

An ad got me thinking. I have used an office guillotine and you cannot cut too thick an amount of paper, it tends to fan out the lower ones and you get a dodgy cut. I accept you can brace it to prevent that.

But what about the big industrial ones, how do they convert those huge rolls into A4 etc. Even keeping the blades sharp enough whilst spending a day constantly cutting would be an issue.

Tungsten Carbide solves the ‘sharp enough’ issue.

Solves the heating up with constant use issue as well

how a balde that in an industrial application is cutting 8 hours a day doesn’t need sharpening or replacing.
———————————-
It does…

Every 10,000ish cuts…

>how a balde that in an industrial application is cutting 8 hours a day doesn’t need sharpening or replacing.

For the other 16 hours they rest it under a pyramid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGH7kQ30SKo

Mr Ironic said:

how a balde that in an industrial application is cutting 8 hours a day doesn’t need sharpening or replacing.
———————————-
It does…

Every 10,000ish cuts…

How many pages would that be? What sort of timeframe? I can imagine a big newspaper to go through that quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=E4C3×26dxbM&feature=endscreen

Skunkworks said:

How many pages would that be? What sort of timeframe? I can imagine a big newspaper to go through that quickly.

Changing the blade daily, for example, wouldn’t be much of a hassle.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Skunkworks said:

How many pages would that be? What sort of timeframe? I can imagine a big newspaper to go through that quickly.

Changing the blade daily, for example, wouldn’t be much of a hassle.

Rather expensive though…hence the use of incredibly hard materials for cutting.

How many pages would that be? What sort of timeframe? I can imagine a big newspaper to go through that quickly.
—————————————————————————————-

Yeah News papers are different.

They run, well some do, different sections on diiferent presses, splicing and collatting sections.

At the end of the day the cost of matinance is less than the profit…

Witty Rejoinder said:

Skunkworks said:

How many pages would that be? What sort of timeframe? I can imagine a big newspaper to go through that quickly.

Changing the blade daily, for example, wouldn’t be much of a hassle.

Well no, but as the thread has progressed we have gone from not sharpening or replacing to a number and I was trying yo break that number down into terms I can picture.

http://huadamachine.gmc.globalmarket.com/products/details/automatic-a4-paper-sheet-cutting-machine-1196242.html

looks as if the blade to cut it length ways is a circular disc

width ways it might be a sliding guillotine – that might well be a circular blade

The cutting point, that is the instantaneous point of contact of the upper and lower cutting elements, travels from one edge to the other edge of the material web in condition of constant rotational speed of the drums not with a constant speed. Instead, it travels from the beginning to the end with deceleration. When in accordance with the invention the bearing surface is formed as a helical surface with constant inclination, the free angle of the elastically yieldable cutting element can be identical only in two points of the cutting line, for example in the beginning of the cutting line and in the end of the latter. However, according to a further advantageous feature of the invention, the inclination of the helical surface along the drum axis may gradually decrease in correspondence with the reducing travelling speed of the cutting point, so that the free angle remains constant over the entire cutting line.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4356745

this seems to be the way they cut the paper sheet

looking through you tube they seem to use two drums to cut the paper

they might be using this method

the general print shops buy paper in reams, usually 640×860, work out what a4 pages or a2 pages can be cut from this. the printing machines are called sheet fed.

a small guillotine.

you need a web press to print from rolls.

an old goss community. used for small newspaper printing.

the blades need replacing. depends on the type of paper that is being cut. art paper, because of the clay coat, dull them pretty quick. the blade comes down with the same force all the time. the clamp pressure can be adjusted to suit the paper. you don’t want high pressure when cutting NCR paper otherwise you’ll activate the coatings too much.

640×860 has been long gone Boris.

from looking at what they use to cut the sheet i’m inclined to go for some ultra tough material with an ultra sharp edge

you wouldn’t want to keep changing the blades on the rotating drum too often (down time)

Clay coat on paper? I am learning lots from this thread. Tis a complicate business the simple business of cutting paper.

jjjust moi said:

640×860 has been long gone Boris.

Give him a break, he retired sometime late in the century before last.

a4 sheet can have multiple coating of clay/ latex or some other material to create a smooth surface ie it fills the rough edge

latex? never heard of that. a4 is just a size not a type.

i’ve been out of the trade a fair while.

i’m more inclined to believe that a rotating blade is more likely to be used on an industrial scale

rotating blades will be able to cut more sheets that reciprocating blades I reckon per minute

a reciprocating blade will take more energy to cut as it has to change direction all the time

kaolin clay coat, skunkworks.

apparently the coating isn’t just about smoothing the layer of the paper

it has to do with how the ink will soak into the paper itself

the layers of filler change how the ink soaks in

the filler also changes the brightness of the paper

you’re wrong wookie. otherwise they would use it.

Boris said:

kaolin clay coat, skunkworks.

I am guessing the extra fine clay particles fill the gaps between the fibre particles to make it smother. How does glossy magazine paper work, even more clay?

Boris said:

you’re wrong wookie. otherwise they would use it.

been looking through paper cutting machines industrial

they use a rotating blade

Skunkworks said:

Boris said:

kaolin clay coat, skunkworks.

I am guessing the extra fine clay particles fill the gaps between the fibre particles to make it smother. How does glossy magazine paper work, even more clay?

Coated paper is paper which has been coated by a compound to impart certain qualities to the paper, including weight, surface gloss, smoothness or reduced ink absorbency. Kaolinite, calcium carbonate, Bentonite, talc… are used to coat paper for high quality printing used in packaging industry and in magazines. The chalk or china clay is bound to the paper with synthetic viscofiers, such as styrene-butadiene latexes and natural organic binders such as starch. The coating formulation may also contain chemical additives as dispersants, resins, PE: to give water resistance and wet strength to the paper, or to protect against ultraviolet radiation.

note it mentions latex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coated_paper

a4 is just a size not a type.
—————————————-

Not really.

A4 is a detemination of A1.

Maybe a golden one…

to get extra gloss they just squeeze the paper more though what is known as a calendar stack of rollers at the end of the paper making machine. you can also put a smooth semi-gloss finish on non coated paper. it polishes the paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calender

another thing strikes me

sheets of paper should have cohesion not adhesion

you don’t want all those sheets sticking to each other in the pack

you don’t want the sheet falling apart in the production process

type as in bond, bank, art etc. size as in a4, foolscap etc.

rotating blades will be able to cut more sheets that reciprocating blades I reckon per minute
————————————————-
Why wouyld the blade need to rotate…

The paper is already in motion.

why would they stick? only a prob if they get wet.

seeing how they make paper, I wouldn’t mind working in the papermaking process to see what really goes on

no doubt there’d be plenty of work

I place like that seems to be full of electric motors

there might be some dude that checks the vibration on the bearings of those drums, if the roller bearings become worn it would start making the paper uneven

they have a rotating blade on the goss. it rotates otherwise the paper would tear.

like i said i hadn’t heard of latex coated paper. lots of speciallity papers for all sorts of printing. plastic was the worse to print on.

Boris said:

why would they stick? only a prob if they get wet.

if the paper wasn’t finished properly then you might have the paper sticking together

they must factor in a certain amount of humidity being present storage and getting into the paper pack

if you wet a new newspaper, you’ll notice the paer sticks together in the presence of water

i’m saying this might be something they take into account

it has to do with how the ink will soak into the paper itself

———————————————————————-

Ahh yes but no…

The harder the substance the cleaner the dot.

Hench News Papers images are shit.

Boris said:

they have a rotating blade on the goss. it rotates otherwise the paper would tear.

like i said i hadn’t heard of latex coated paper. lots of speciallity papers for all sorts of printing. plastic was the worse to print on.

the latex is used to help the clay to the paper

see the previous link I gave

How does glossy magazine paper work, even more clay?
———————————————————

Yup.

i forget what the water content of paper is. 4% seems to ring a bell. it is 90% when it goes onto the wire.

Mr Ironic said:

it has to do with how the ink will soak into the paper itself

———————————————————————-

Ahh yes but no…

The harder the substance the cleaner the dot.

Hench News Papers images are shit.

they must have done testing to see how the ink soaks into the paper

I bet if you looked at the paper cross sectionally there might be some spread of the ink when it penetrates the finish

they wouldn’t use a paper with more clay for glossy mag. too expensive. and too heavy. and too thick more pressure in the making.

wookiemeister said:

Mr Ironic said:

it has to do with how the ink will soak into the paper itself

———————————————————————-

Ahh yes but no…

The harder the substance the cleaner the dot.

Hench News Papers images are shit.

they must have done testing to see how the ink soaks into the paper

I bet if you looked at the paper cross sectionally there might be some spread of the ink when it penetrates the finish

you wouldn’t want a separation of the ink colourings

ever done that expermeriment where the ink separates and you get that chromatography thing going on

it makes me wonder if that might happen with the paper and they try to stop the ink spreading through the paper so that it separates colour wise

type as in bond, bank, art etc. size as in a4, foolscap etc.
————————————————————-
Bond is 80gsm
Bank as low as 60gsm
Art refres to the clay amount on the surface.
A4 is Europein FS Amerecain… foot lenth v’s mtrs…

it makes me wonder if they should make paper out of hemp rather than cutting down trees

most inks dry by evaporation not soaking into the paper, absorption. newspaper inks don’t dry just soak in a bit.

i know mr ironic.

newsprint is pine from plantations. stationary type paper from hardwoods usually from plantations. that is what the woodchip is used for.

they must factor in a certain amount of humidity being present storage and getting into the paper pack
——————————————————————
Yeah it is dryed.

Boris said:

most inks dry by evaporation not soaking into the paper, absorption. newspaper inks don’t dry just soak in a bit.

Aye, hence butlers ironing papers to get the fold out and stop ink getting onto the fingers. Or elbows if you read a paper like me.

the rollers on the papermaking machine are heated, used to be with steam, to dry the paper.

I bet if you looked at the paper cross sectionally there might be some spread of the ink when it penetrates the finish
——————————————————————-

Yes, this is called dot gain and can be allowed for, pre-press, for the equpment and substrate.

Still start with shit end with….

And may as well throw it in here, would it be fair to say papyrus and old inks would outlast any (apart from archival or art paper) modern paper?

they wouldn’t use a paper with more clay for glossy mag. too expensive. and too heavy. and too thick more pressure in the making.
——————————————————-

No. Harder papers are thinner than softer papers.

>>>>Harder papers are thinner than softer papers.

yes cos they are rolled hared. they do not use lots of clay for womens weekly type mags. high end mags yes. you can tell by the weight of them and the thickness of the pages.

you wouldn’t want a separation of the ink colourings

ever done that expermeriment where the ink separates and you get that chromatography thing going on

it makes me wonder if that might happen with the paper and they try to stop the ink spreading through the paper so that it separates colour wise
——————————————————————-

Seriously Wookie.

Have you never noticed the difference of a clean dot on a Playboy porno compared to the 3rd page on the Daily Tele..

Mr Ironic said:

they wouldn’t use a paper with more clay for glossy mag. too expensive. and too heavy. and too thick more pressure in the making.
——————————————————-

No. Harder papers are thinner than softer papers.

it also makes me wonder

a magazine page has a certain flex to it

would the flex of the paper be part of the attractive quality of it??

you could have the same page with the same gloss but its floppy rather than truly flexible but holds its shape

sure you could make the page thicker but would that be wanted as the magazing would start turning into a phone book

do magazines factor in flexibility of the page?

Mr Ironic said:

you wouldn’t want a separation of the ink colourings

ever done that expermeriment where the ink separates and you get that chromatography thing going on

it makes me wonder if that might happen with the paper and they try to stop the ink spreading through the paper so that it separates colour wise
——————————————————————-

Seriously Wookie.

Have you never noticed the difference of a clean dot on a Playboy porno compared to the 3rd page on the Daily Tele..

I normally put this down to the finish rather than anything related to how the ink might travel if it penetrated the finish

most inks dry by evaporation not soaking into the paper, absorption.
———————————————————————

Yeah, the paper tells the story…

wookie radical thought

you change the way the mush is laid down onto the mesh roller that creates the primitive sheet

perhaps you should lay down the mush into a much thinner sheet and THEN lay down on another sheet of freshly rolled mush onto the existing sheet

the idea is that you make the final paper sheet like plywood, its stronger because you could perhaps lay down layers of paper that’s strong at right angles to each other?

the two or three sheets are stuck together

, would it be fair to say papyrus and old inks would outlast any (apart from archival or art paper) modern paper?
——————————————————

Unlikly, most modern paper has a suggested life span of 200 years.

Arciving things with an acid content is, well difficult.

Mr Ironic said:

you wouldn’t want a separation of the ink colourings

ever done that expermeriment where the ink separates and you get that chromatography thing going on

it makes me wonder if that might happen with the paper and they try to stop the ink spreading through the paper so that it separates colour wise
——————————————————————-

Seriously Wookie.

Have you never noticed the difference of a clean dot on a Playboy porno compared to the 3rd page on the Daily Tele..

Hard to tell when the pages are stuck together.

Mr Ironic said:

, would it be fair to say papyrus and old inks would outlast any (apart from archival or art paper) modern paper?
——————————————————

Unlikly, most modern paper has a suggested life span of 200 years.

Arciving things with an acid content is, well difficult.

200 years is fuck all, I was thinking more Timbactu library gear.

maybe you could make paper using things from unwanted things like cat fur

Skunkworks said:

Mr Ironic said:

, would it be fair to say papyrus and old inks would outlast any (apart from archival or art paper) modern paper?
——————————————————

Unlikly, most modern paper has a suggested life span of 200 years.

Arciving things with an acid content is, well difficult.

200 years is fuck all, I was thinking more Timbactu library gear.

ooops, sorry, got the wrong end of the stick there.

Or on rereading maybe not.

the dead sea scrolls had the advantage of being in a very dry environment.

Boris said:

the dead sea scrolls had the advantage of being in a very dry environment.

in that part of the world a wet pair of jeans will dry out like cardboard in around an hour in the sun

for stronger paper use cotton instead of woodpulp. banknotes are usually rag based.

wookiemeister said:

Boris said:

the dead sea scrolls had the advantage of being in a very dry environment.

in that part of the world a wet pair of jeans will dry out like cardboard in around an hour in the sun

even in the desert there can be humidity.

The dead sea scrolls were sealed in clay jars.

Boris said:

for stronger paper use cotton instead of woodpulp. banknotes are usually rag based.

hemp made good paper.

The Dead Sea Scrolls that were found were originally preserved by the dry, arid, and low humidity conditions present within the Qumran area adjoining the Dead Sea. In addition, the lack of the use of tanning materials on the parchment of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the very low airflow in the Qumran caves also contributed significantly to their preservation.

wiki

yes cos they are rolled hared. they do not use lots of clay for womens weekly type mags. high end mags yes. you can tell by the weight of them and the thickness of the pages.
——————————————-

Well no.

Thickness and weight are not Apples… on Apples…

Fibre and coating determines the GSM, the more coatings the greater the GSM.

And hence for the harder the surface the sharper the dot, translucent inks…, being the norm.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

Boris said:

the dead sea scrolls had the advantage of being in a very dry environment.

in that part of the world a wet pair of jeans will dry out like cardboard in around an hour in the sun

even in the desert there can be humidity.

The dead sea scrolls were sealed in clay jars.

in that part of the world the humidity of a day at least is very low, its very dry

I just like the idea of low tech being more durable than high tec.

Also there are some issues with everyday life, the ordinary letters and minutia of life that is being removed from some societys with electronic communications.

what you say is true mr ironic. but womens weekly type mags do not use a lot of clay. like i said it adds to the expense.

>>>>I just like the idea of low tech being more durable than high tec.

yes, stone carvings lasting longer than a cd or similar modern medium.

Boris said:

>>>>I just like the idea of low tech being more durable than high tec.

yes, stone carvings lasting longer than a cd or similar modern medium.

Just takes a lot longer to write on

>>>>Thickness and weight are not Apples… on Apples…

never said they were. i actually mentioned them separately. good mags do have a better thicker clay coat. they are rolled harder to get the gloss and they do use thicker paper. it gives the impression of quality.

Good thing the Dead Sea Scrolls weren’t printed out on thermal fax paper.

the inks for multicolour are transparent. long ago you couldn’t get transparent yellow so for 4 colour this had to be printed first. the printers wore green glasses so they could see the print.

party_pants said:

Good thing the Dead Sea Scrolls weren’t printed out on thermal fax paper.

wouldn’t really have mattered.. What was on the dead sea scrolls doesn’t seem to have been fascinating reading.

party_pants said:

Good thing the Dead Sea Scrolls weren’t printed out on thermal fax paper.

There seems to be no explicit requirement for permanence in legal documents, as far as I can tell, and many companies are now issuing documents (receipts, for example) that fade right out after only a few hours under real-world conditions.

Smart…

Also there are some issues with everyday life, the ordinary letters and minutia of life that is being removed from some societys with electronic communications.
—————————————-
Some issues…

FMD.

What can be deleted… never existed.

Rule 303 said:

party_pants said:

Good thing the Dead Sea Scrolls weren’t printed out on thermal fax paper.

There seems to be no explicit requirement for permanence in legal documents, as far as I can tell, and many companies are now issuing documents (receipts, for example) that fade right out after only a few hours under real-world conditions.

Smart…

Bunnings receipts

Rule 303 said:

party_pants said:

Good thing the Dead Sea Scrolls weren’t printed out on thermal fax paper.

There seems to be no explicit requirement for permanence in legal documents, as far as I can tell, and many companies are now issuing documents (receipts, for example) that fade right out after only a few hours under real-world conditions.

Smart…

Yeah, I notice that just doing the expenses claims at work. If someone gets such a receipt and leaves it on the car dashboard on a hot day it can be almost unreadable by the time they submit their expenses for reimbursement at the end of the month.

roughbarked said:

Bunnings receipts

Yep. Like most of the stuff you buy in the shop, their receipts are garbage.

Gotta get those babies onto a photocopier quick-smart if you need a record of the transaction.

>>>>The chalk or china clay is bound to the paper with synthetic viscofiers, such as styrene-butadiene latexes and natural organic binders such as starch.

ahhhh so it isn’t a finish coat just a binder.

the paper oxidates. newspaper goes yellow.

Mr Ironic said:

Also there are some issues with everyday life, the ordinary letters and minutia of life that is being removed from some societys with electronic communications.
—————————————-
Some issues…

FMD.

What can be deleted… never existed.

Why the FMD? And PS if you delete something doesnt negate it existed,

but womens weekly type mags do not use a lot of clay. like i said it adds to the expense.
————————————————————————-

It is all about popular choice…

Mills run on volume, so stock choice is, really, dependant on cost per/smt per/preformance.

Some of the high end paper is only available to the high end clients…

roughbarked said:

Bunnings receipts

Nahh I have got a return from Bunnings cos they found they transaction on EFTPOS.

Skunkworks said:

Mr Ironic said:

Also there are some issues with everyday life, the ordinary letters and minutia of life that is being removed from some societys with electronic communications.
—————————————-
Some issues…

FMD.

What can be deleted… never existed.

Why the FMD? And PS if you delete something doesnt negate it existed,

I suspect its an oblique reference to 1984

>>>>Mills run on volume, so stock choice is, really, dependant on cost per/smt per/preformance.

>>>>Some of the high end paper is only available to the high end clients…

fewer quality papers, less paper needed. more expensive product. i believe that is what i’ve been saying.

Mr Ironic said:

but womens weekly type mags do not use a lot of clay. like i said it adds to the expense.
————————————————————————-

It is all about popular choice…

Mills run on volume, so stock choice is, really, dependant on cost per/smt per/preformance.

Some of the high end paper is only available to the high end clients…

“High end” paper is available to anyone who will pay for it.

Skunkworks said:

roughbarked said:

Bunnings receipts

Nahh I have got a return from Bunnings cos they found they transaction on EFTPOS.

Yes.. use a card and they still have a record of the transaction.

Pay cash and photocopy the receipt because it won’t last otherwise.

>>>>“High end” paper is available to anyone who will pay for it.

as long as it is in stock.

:-)

they do use thicker paper. it gives the impression of quality.
—————————————————————

Yes they do.

But the quality lies not in the ‘thickness’ but in the coating…

It’s a bit like buying a big house in a suspect local.

>>>>But the quality lies not in the ‘thickness’ but in the coating…

like i said it gives the impression.

long ago you couldn’t get transparent yellow so for 4 colour this had to be printed first. the printers wore green glasses so they could see the print.
————————————————————-

LOL

Really?

Yellow, cyan, magenta and black. ‘Had’ differnt ahesive qulaties, so one laid on the other is bettter.

Today it is not so important. Still, you only know if the yellow is wrong…if you can see it.

Skunkworks said:

Nahh I have got a return from Bunnings cos they found they transaction on EFTPOS.

The presence or absence of a receipt has no bearing upon your consumer rights.

A receipt might, however, be your only method of proving that an expense has been incurred (for the Tax Man, ofr example).

Why the FMD? And PS if you delete something doesnt negate it existed,
——————————-

Ast…astond…. suprised that that is all you indicated…

But yes, if it is not recorded in history… it fails to exi… Oh look a peanut.

If Bunnings don’t see a transaction record they won’t replace or refund the item.

Rule 303 said:

Skunkworks said:

Nahh I have got a return from Bunnings cos they found they transaction on EFTPOS.

The presence or absence of a receipt has no bearing upon your consumer rights.

A receipt might, however, be your only method of proving that an expense has been incurred (for the Tax Man, ofr example).

I reckon it might, I don’t think I could rock up to a store and ask for a reimbursement without proof I had purchased it from them. The consideration is the first but most important part of establishing the relationship. No consideration, no deal, no past, present or pending.

Mr Ironic said:

But yes, if it is not recorded in history… it fails to exi… Oh look a peanut.

I can infer things occurred without a record.

I suspect its an oblique reference to 1984
———————————————
Ha!

Oblex or Asterix.

The Romans will be denied…

roughbarked said:

If Bunnings don’t see a transaction record they won’t replace or refund the item.

It is a clear misrepresentation of your consumer rights to tell you that, and it’s false and misleading of them to tell you they are entitled to it.

Walk out and ring the ACCC.

Skunkworks said:

I reckon it might, I don’t think I could rock up to a store and ask for a reimbursement without proof I had purchased it from them.

You’re not entitled to demand a reimbursement unless you have established that the retailer is unable to supply goods fit for purpose – Which is usually only by their own admission.

I can infer things oc…
—————————————

Sorry what was that…

Rule 303 said:

Skunkworks said:

I reckon it might, I don’t think I could rock up to a store and ask for a reimbursement without proof I had purchased it from them.

You’re not entitled to demand a reimbursement unless you have established that the retailer is unable to supply goods fit for purpose – Which is usually only by their own admission.

Before fit for purpose you need to prove the contract.

Mr Ironic said:

I can infer things oc…
—————————————

Sorry what was that…

meh, you are the one claiming if it is not recorded in history it didn’t exist.

I go in hard when I go down to bunnings to get my money back

I show the lady at the counter my receipt and then politely explain to her what the problem is

they then give me a refund or a replacement

no one messes me around

wookiemeister said:

I go in hard when I go down to bunnings to get my money back

I show the lady at the counter my receipt and then politely explain to her what the problem is

they then give me a refund or a replacement

no one messes me around

I got a refund cos a bench was, when properly constructed a piece of fragile crap. Not a problem, they accepted it back and reimbursed my money.

Skunkworks said:

Before fit for purpose you need to prove the contract.

Sure, but you purchase by an electronic transfer that can easily be proved, right?

Rule 303 said:

Skunkworks said:

Before fit for purpose you need to prove the contract.

Sure, but you purchase by an electronic transfer that can easily be proved, right?

I did, but that doesn’t get away from the fact that you need to have the contract before contesting it.

Skunkworks said:

I did, but that doesn’t get away from the fact that you need to have the contract before contesting it.

Sure, but it’s not reasonable to expect you to be able to provide a receipt of the transaction if the original receipt was illegible within a few hours of being issued.

you are the one claiming if it is not recorded in history it didn’t exist.
—————————————————-
Time in motion my dear friend…

Take Curards last wobble…

Captain Robert G. Carter, writing to author W.A. Graham in 1925, discussed the vulnerability of U.S. Army troops to interception and destruction by Indian defenders, outside the context of the Indian villages:

“Who knows that the same Indians might have done to Gibbon and Terry, had not Custer attacked …on the 25th, instead the 26th…and Sioux and Cheyenne forces “moving toward , do the very same thing – overwhelm them by force of numbers…”

Wonderful.

But what was Sitting Bulls comentary?

Mr Ironic said:

you are the one claiming if it is not recorded in history it didn’t exist.
—————————————————-
Time in motion my dear friend…

Take Curards last wobble…

Captain Robert G. Carter, writing to author W.A. Graham in 1925, discussed the vulnerability of U.S. Army troops to interception and destruction by Indian defenders, outside the context of the Indian villages:

“Who knows that the same Indians might have done to Gibbon and Terry, had not Custer attacked …on the 25th, instead the 26th…and Sioux and Cheyenne forces “moving toward , do the very same thing – overwhelm them by force of numbers…”

Wonderful.

But what was Sitting Bulls comentary?

Agreed, the recording of history is imperfect, mostly supressed or spun and to the losers pity. And yes, it is sad and bad when oral historys are lost, I was taking exception your if its not recorded it didn’t happen, but I think we are coming at it from a different philosophical viewpoint.

lost, I was taking exception your if its not recorded it didn’t happen,
————————————————-

Well it will be that way too more than many…

But yes, facts don’t change, just the observation of them…

Mr Ironic said:

But yes, facts don’t change, just the observation of them…

I am reading 38 Nooses: Lincoln, Little Crow, and the Beginning of the Frontier’s End. The observation of what you call the facts is subjective and prone to being misunderstood.

The observation of what you call the facts is subjective and prone to being misunderstood.
————————————————-

Umm Yeah, I’m glad you agree.

Night.

wookiemeister said:

in the workshop we were warned NOT to cut paper in the metal sheet guillotine because it blunted the balde

Where did you work that this was an issue?

The place I work has a good few sheet metal guillotines. The only restriction we have has to do with cutting stainless steel sheets, because that blunts blades right quick.

esselte said:

wookiemeister said:

in the workshop we were warned NOT to cut paper in the metal sheet guillotine because it blunted the balde

Where did you work that this was an issue?

The place I work has a good few sheet metal guillotines. The only restriction we have has to do with cutting stainless steel sheets, because that blunts blades right quick.

apprentice workshop

the paper blunts the blade apparently

as I understand it now unless corrected the way they cut a4 sheet has got to this point through this process

wood is chopped up and the lignin removed to leave the pulp and filler to give the paper the right texture

the pulp is treated and then deposited onto rollers in a layer which is squashed successively rolling out moisture and being hit by different things

the paper is then hit with filler to make it smooth

huge rolls of paper are created that are 5m long or more

these rolls are cut down into set lengths

the rolls are then unrolled ready to be processed by the cutting machine

the paper sheet is then split and chopped across its width

as I suspected its a rotating blade that cuts not a reciprocating blade

as I understand it the paper is hit with two blades from the top of the sheet and below

the blade itself sits on drum that rotates, the blade is wound around the drum so that as the paper is hit from the top and bottom it actually cuts across the width of the paper from one side to the other

there might be other methods but I haven’t seen them

wookiemeister said:

esselte said:

wookiemeister said:

in the workshop we were warned NOT to cut paper in the metal sheet guillotine because it blunted the balde

Where did you work that this was an issue?

The place I work has a good few sheet metal guillotines. The only restriction we have has to do with cutting stainless steel sheets, because that blunts blades right quick.

apprentice workshop

the paper blunts the blade apparently

Yeah, I get that you’re claiming paper blunts sheet metal gillo’s. Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant to me at the moment. I’m more interested in the circumstances where “don’t cut paper on the sheet metal guillotine” is useful or pertinent advice. I mean, what kind of a workshop is it where you tell someone that? What are they doing there that it would be an issue, or even something that someone thought about?

esselte said:

wookiemeister said:

esselte said:

Where did you work that this was an issue?

The place I work has a good few sheet metal guillotines. The only restriction we have has to do with cutting stainless steel sheets, because that blunts blades right quick.

apprentice workshop

the paper blunts the blade apparently

Yeah, I get that you’re claiming paper blunts sheet metal gillo’s. Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant to me at the moment. I’m more interested in the circumstances where “don’t cut paper on the sheet metal guillotine” is useful or pertinent advice. I mean, what kind of a workshop is it where you tell someone that? What are they doing there that it would be an issue, or even something that someone thought about?

as I was told the blade for cutting metal doesn’t like paper it blunts it

that was as much as I was told

wookiemeister said:

esselte said:

wookiemeister said:

apprentice workshop

the paper blunts the blade apparently

Yeah, I get that you’re claiming paper blunts sheet metal gillo’s. Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant to me at the moment. I’m more interested in the circumstances where “don’t cut paper on the sheet metal guillotine” is useful or pertinent advice. I mean, what kind of a workshop is it where you tell someone that? What are they doing there that it would be an issue, or even something that someone thought about?

as I was told the blade for cutting metal doesn’t like paper it blunts it

that was as much as I was told

I’ve heard from a few other people but I can’t remember where

I have it on good authority that all sheets of A4 paper are made to size and not cut from a larger roll.

party_pants said:

I have it on good authority that all sheets of A4 paper are made to size and not cut from a larger roll.

not according all the stuff I was watching

they seem to make larger rolls which are then cut down to size

party_pants said:

I have it on good authority that all sheets of A4 paper are made to size and not cut from a larger roll.

I have it on good authority that they are cut from an A-49 planet sized sheet.

wookiemeister said:

as I was told the blade for cutting metal doesn’t like paper it blunts it.

So someone told you that. Why? Under what circumstance? Was there a stack of paper waiting to be cut on one side of the bench, and a stack of metal on the other, and your mentor was like “Cut metal with that guillotine. Cut paper with that other guillotine. Don’t mix them up. If you cut paper on the sheet metal guillotine you will blunt the blades.”

I wonder how they make loo paper

esselte said:

wookiemeister said:

as I was told the blade for cutting metal doesn’t like paper it blunts it.

So someone told you that. Why? Under what circumstance? Was there a stack of paper waiting to be cut on one side of the bench, and a stack of metal on the other, and your mentor was like “Cut metal with that guillotine. Cut paper with that other guillotine. Don’t mix them up. If you cut paper on the sheet metal guillotine you will blunt the blades.”

no just don’t put paper in it blunts the blades

wookiemeister said:

I wonder how they make loo paper

In small sheets and then they glue them together to make a roll.

Kingy said:

party_pants said:

I have it on good authority that all sheets of A4 paper are made to size and not cut from a larger roll.

I have it on good authority that they are cut from an A-49 planet sized sheet.

You need to sew together lots of A-49 to get A4…

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

I wonder how they make loo paper

In small sheets and then they glue them together to make a roll.

cool

do they use people with tiny fingers?

wookiemeister said:

party_pants said:

wookiemeister said:

I wonder how they make loo paper

In small sheets and then they glue them together to make a roll.

cool

do they use people with tiny fingers?

they dip the ends and then line them up with a machine.

I haven’t read the whole thread but a friend of mine ran a printing business and the paper was cut with “air knives” presumably a jet of compressed air.

pommiejohn said:

I haven’t read the whole thread but a friend of mine ran a printing business and the paper was cut with “air knives” presumably a jet of compressed air.

the googletubes seems to show that circular blades seem to be used to cut the rolls across their width in most cases

maybe they rotate the roll rather than the blades

wookiemeister said:

pommiejohn said:

I haven’t read the whole thread but a friend of mine ran a printing business and the paper was cut with “air knives” presumably a jet of compressed air.

the googletubes seems to show that circular blades seem to be used to cut the rolls across their width in most cases

maybe they rotate the roll rather than the blades

he was running a sheet fed press ,. not web.

My only experience with paper manufacture was 6 months working as a contractor at the Visy mill in Tumut. They manufactured cardboard there, rather than paper. Actually, the website claims they manufacture high quality Kraft paper, whatever that is. I saw the end result… It was cardboard.

The “paper machine” (I think that’s what it was called) was a hugely expensive, very long series of rollers and heaters. The product went in at one end as a pulpy wet mess, and by the time it came out the other end it was a dry, wide sheet of cardboard. This cardboard was rolled on to very large spindles and shipped out as big, heavy rolls of cardboard to be cut up somewhere else. I imagine to be cut up in lots of different places, to lots of different specifications.

Hmm. Wiki tells me that an air knife is for cleaning debis , not cutting,
My mistake.