US Billionaire Elon Musk (co-founder of PayPal, Tesla Motors, SpaceX) has come up with a high speed transport plan. Basically a long tube with low air pressure, along which pods carrying up to 28 people wizz through at high speed, using magnetic levitation technology. Claims of speeds of up to 1200 km/h, I guess because of the low pressure means less drag.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-13/us-entrepereneur-unveils-hyperloop-transport-system/4883782
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/news/18473786/california-billionaire-lifts-lid-on-hyperloop-futuristic-transport/

I’m a bit sceptical of the cost though. Claims of $6 billion to build the system from Los Angeles to San Francisco, versus nearly $70 billion to build conventional high speed rail. I would have thought something like this, essentially a sealed low pressure tube 650 km long, would cost an order of magnitude more rather than less , no?

I believe it rides on wavefronts travelling at the speed of sound..

Pretty bunnings cool

high speed party pants

the structure that its going to be in will most likely be prefrab concrete tubes

that will be easy to make

CrazyNeutrino said:

the structure that its going to be in will most likely be prefrab concrete tubes

that will be easy to make

what happens if the concrete deviates by half a millimetre (considering that it hovers 1 millimetre from that concrete – from what little I’ve read)?

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

the structure that its going to be in will most likely be prefrab concrete tubes

that will be easy to make

what happens if the concrete deviates by half a millimetre (considering that it hovers 1 millimetre from that concrete – from what little I’ve read)?

I guess they gently rub and wear away, until such time as the gap becomes 1 mm.

>Mr Musk believes he could get the Hyperloop built in one or two years, if it is his top priority at the time.

If I was him I’d get a few mates in to help. Maybe put on a barbie and supply a slab or two.

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

the structure that its going to be in will most likely be prefrab concrete tubes

that will be easy to make

what happens if the concrete deviates by half a millimetre (considering that it hovers 1 millimetre from that concrete – from what little I’ve read)?

for that matter, how would this system be effected by any siginificant seismic activity along its route, while operating?

where are the wings?

and

where does the air in front go?

The wave front collapses and the train stops

Dropbear said:

The wave front collapses and the train stops

is that the effect of ground movement directly on the portion of the tube containing the travelling vehicle?

Basically, if this was not being put forward by Musk, I would think it crackpottery.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

the structure that its going to be in will most likely be prefrab concrete tubes

that will be easy to make

what happens if the concrete deviates by half a millimetre (considering that it hovers 1 millimetre from that concrete – from what little I’ve read)?
what happens if something gets in the tube?

for that matter, how would this system be effected by any siginificant seismic activity along its route, while operating?

ok what if the concrete tube is constructed in one piece?

like that tunneling machine that also lays the concrete around the tunnel?

dv said:

I would think it crackpottery.

isn’t there a cert IV in that?

CrazyNeutrino said:

ok what if the concrete tube is constructed in one piece?

like that tunneling machine that also lays the concrete around the tunnel?

yeah but will that concrete be the same mix all the way through?

different expansion rates etc, buckling due to continuous pour?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

dv said:

I would think it crackpottery.

isn’t there a cert IV in that?

yeah but its 7000 dollars

what happens when that part of the world gets hot by “the big one”?

of course he’s actually not quite finished the idea properly

you don’t use linear motors – you use compressed air

the wookiemeister re-mix of the idea is that you release compressed air behind the train, compressed air is known and trialled technology

you do an Iraqi supergun approach to accelerating the train and simply release lots of compressed air behind the train which turns the tube into an airgun

the solar panels would just be used to compress air

this however would mean higher acceleration but it would be a cheaper option, the air gets compressed and released by large valves behind the train, at some point the air would simply be released to the atmosphere.

another possibility is storing a large compressed air tank in the train NO BATTERY. batteries are expensive and will die a lot faster than a compressed air tank, you just release air from behind the train to drive it forward.

The idea is hardly novel. The general concept was once in common use on a small scale in large stores like David Jones for ferrying paperwork around the building. I’m sure that others of my vintage will remember those pneumatic pipe conveyors.

I have seen similar systems proposed for handling bulk materials more than 20 years ago. There have even been prototypes built. I recall seeing a presentation on them at a conference.

The extension of this basic concept to human transportation is a mental exercise that many have toyed with.

The idea is hardly novel.
—

True enough, but it is “news” that a serious, respected and successful engineer is saying that it can actually be built in a fairly short time on an affordable budget. This is Elon Musk, not Zarkov.

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit

morrie said:

The idea is hardly novel. The general concept was once in common use on a small scale in large stores like David Jones for ferrying paperwork around the building. I’m sure that others of my vintage will remember those pneumatic pipe conveyors.

I have seen similar systems proposed for handling bulk materials more than 20 years ago. There have even been prototypes built. I recall seeing a presentation on them at a conference.

The extension of this basic concept to human transportation is a mental exercise that many have toyed with.

It’s still in use in some hospitals.

another spin on it could be this

you could build coils in the tube and have a rotating field caused by them as you pump in current

the train has a three phase motor squirrel cage motor which turns in the rotating field, the motor turns a big fan, the train just runs in 1 bar and doesn’t travel at some enormous speed

it still uses the ground effect and uses a big fan to propel it forward

the fan draws air over the train just like an aerofoil which gives lift and propulsion

wookiemeister said:

another spin on it could be this

you could build coils in the tube and have a rotating field caused by them as you pump in current

the train has a three phase motor squirrel cage motor which turns in the rotating field, the motor turns a big fan, the train just runs in 1 bar and doesn’t travel at some enormous speed

it still uses the ground effect and uses a big fan to propel it forward

the fan draws air over the train just like an aerofoil which gives lift and propulsion

the solar panels provide power to the three phase rotating field

the train triggers the rotating field behind the passenger compartment

wookiemeister said:

another spin on it could be this

you could build coils in the tube and have a rotating field caused by them as you pump in current

the train has a three phase motor squirrel cage motor which turns in the rotating field, the motor turns a big fan, the train just runs in 1 bar and doesn’t travel at some enormous speed

it still uses the ground effect and uses a big fan to propel it forward

the fan draws air over the train just like an aerofoil which gives lift and propulsion

is your real name Wile E. Coyote?

poikilotherm said:

morrie said:

The idea is hardly novel. The general concept was once in common use on a small scale in large stores like David Jones for ferrying paperwork around the building. I’m sure that others of my vintage will remember those pneumatic pipe conveyors.

I have seen similar systems proposed for handling bulk materials more than 20 years ago. There have even been prototypes built. I recall seeing a presentation on them at a conference.

The extension of this basic concept to human transportation is a mental exercise that many have toyed with.

It’s still in use in some hospitals.

All the hosps I’ve worked in. I heart Mr Lamson.

the next spin on the idea is this

build a canal instead

the water on the canal surface creates the smooth surface needed for the train to move over, you just cover the the canal to stop animals and the thing glides over the waters surface

water wouldn’t need to be maintained

if the tunnel was covered in panels it would be shady meaning little chance of algae

you just use tap water of similar. the canal would be perhaps a foot deep at most, in a breezeless environment the train would glide over the surface, you’d only be using a fraction of the concrete to make it

the train might just have an electric fan that propels it forward, it reaches a station, and changes battery

wookiemeister said:

the next spin on the idea is this

build a canal instead

the water on the canal surface creates the smooth surface needed for the train to move over, you just cover the the canal to stop animals and the thing glides over the waters surface

water wouldn’t need to be maintained

if the tunnel was covered in panels it would be shady meaning little chance of algae

you just use tap water of similar. the canal would be perhaps a foot deep at most, in a breezeless environment the train would glide over the surface, you’d only be using a fraction of the concrete to make it

the train might just have an electric fan that propels it forward, it reaches a station, and changes battery

people just have their own ground effect craft to drive into work everyone drives on the canal

Why are those systems used in hospitals? Transport of specimens?

morrie said:

Why are those systems used in hospitals? Transport of specimens?

Pathology seemed to be the biggest users.

morrie said:

Why are those systems used in hospitals? Transport of specimens?

also used in supermarkets etc – transport of money

MartinB said:

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit

Interesting link, Martin.

gaghalfrunt said:

morrie said:

Why are those systems used in hospitals? Transport of specimens?

also used in supermarkets etc – transport of money

Even today? I haven’t seen one in decades.

OCDC said:

poikilotherm said:

morrie said:

The idea is hardly novel. The general concept was once in common use on a small scale in large stores like David Jones for ferrying paperwork around the building. I’m sure that others of my vintage will remember those pneumatic pipe conveyors.

It’s still in use in some hospitals.

All the hosps I’ve worked in. I heart Mr Lamson.

Pneumatic systems are also used in many supermarkets & department stores for transporting money.

But Musk’s scheme has the added element of low friction via “air bearings”.

There’s a small Wikipedia article on the Hyperloop concept, but I expect that further details will be forthcoming, as Musk wants to make this an Open Source project.

morrie said:

gaghalfrunt said:

morrie said:

Why are those systems used in hospitals? Transport of specimens?

also used in supermarkets etc – transport of money

Even today? I haven’t seen one in decades.

Yep, teh Woolies here in the Styx uses them.

morrie said:

Why are those systems used in hospitals? Transport of specimens?

Pathology, drugs, bits of paper (eg drug charts left in ED when pt goes to ward).

All we need is to genetically engineer tiny people. It will have multiple advantages apart from being able to scoot around in pipe conveyors. Space travel, sustainable resource usage to name a couple.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahelliott/2013/08/12/latest-update-elon-musk-will-start-the-hyperloop-himself/

57 page pdf outline here

http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_images/hyperloop-alpha.pdf

CrazyNeutrino said:

57 page pdf outline here

http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_images/hyperloop-alpha.pdf

Could you read it and give me a summary? I’ve got a sore knee.

some background info

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-13/musk-shows-hyperloop-transport-design-for-people-to-cars.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk

this guy is really into hi tech stuff

and he seems a genuine can do it kind of entrepreneur

Elon Musk (/ˈiːlɒn ˈmʌsk/; born 28 June 1971) is a South African-American inventor and entrepreneur. He is best known for founding SpaceX and for co-founding Tesla Motors and PayPal (originally X.com). At SpaceX he is the CEO and Chief Designer and at Tesla Motors he is Chairman, CEO and Product Architect. Musk is also Chairman of SolarCity.

After leaving Queen’s University, he earned a bachelor’s degree in economics from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, and a second bachelor’s degree in physics from the University of Pennsylvania.

The pods inside of the tubes would be mounted on thin skis that shoot air out of tiny holes at their base like those on an air-hockey table.

‘Little Holes’

“The air gets pumped through little holes and makes like an air cushion,” Musk said. The front of the pod would have a pair of air jet inlets — sort of like the Concorde. An electric turbo compressor would take the air from the nose, compress it and route it to the skis and to the cabin. About a dozen people at Tesla and SpaceX have helped Musk with the design and checked the physics behind the Hyperloop.

There would also be a thin row of magnets on the skis. These would be used to give the pod its initial thrust via a linear electric motor that would produce an electromagnetic pulse that that travels along the tube and pushes it to that initial velocity of 800 mph. Such technology has been used with maglev trains and roller coasters to impart a strong initial force that can get an object going quickly in one direction

“When you arrive at your destination, another motor absorbs your kinetic energy and puts it into a battery pack, which is then used to provide the source energy for accelerating the next pod,” Musk said.

Tube Temperature

The temperature inside of the tubes would be between 70 and 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Higher temperatures increase the speed of sound from a baseline of 768 mph at sea level, which means the pods could travel at 800 miles per hour without creating a sonic boom. Also, Musk sees this design producing tailwinds on the pods of 200 to 300 mph, which increases their speed relative to the ground but not the Mach speed or speed relative to the sound barrier.

“The pod can go just below the speed of sound relative to the air,” Musk says.

Martin Simon, a professor of physics at UCLA, briefed on some of the Hyperloop details, said it seems feasible from a technological standpoint.

“It does sound like it’s all done with known technology,” Simon said. “It’s not like he’s counting on something brand new to be invented.”
‘Air Cushion’

Simon said that the acceleration methods proposed by Musk are used at amusement parks to get a roller coaster going. Other companies have looked at these techniques for passenger and freight vehicles. What sets the Hyperloop apart is the use of the air cushion to levitate the pods.

“He has separated the air cushion and the linear induction drive, and that seems new,” Simon said, adding that, “It would be cool if they had transparent tubes.”

During yesterday’s conference call, Musk said that he’s leaning toward building a prototype of the Hyperloop to prove that it can be done.

party_pants said:

I’m a bit sceptical of the cost though. Claims of $6 billion to build the system from Los Angeles to San Francisco, versus nearly $70 billion to build conventional high speed rail. I would have thought something like this, essentially a sealed low pressure tube 650 km long, would cost an order of magnitude more rather than less , no?

When you are just making it up it can cost whatever you want.

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

I’m a bit sceptical of the cost though. Claims of $6 billion to build the system from Los Angeles to San Francisco, versus nearly $70 billion to build conventional high speed rail. I would have thought something like this, essentially a sealed low pressure tube 650 km long, would cost an order of magnitude more rather than less , no?

When you are just making it up it can cost whatever you want.

I’m working on a combination amphibious jet and fishing launch for a tenth the price of a 4WD ute.

The Rev Dodgson said:

party_pants said:

I’m a bit sceptical of the cost though. Claims of $6 billion to build the system from Los Angeles to San Francisco, versus nearly $70 billion to build conventional high speed rail. I would have thought something like this, essentially a sealed low pressure tube 650 km long, would cost an order of magnitude more rather than less , no?

When you are just making it up it can cost whatever you want.

When you are spending your own money, you can make it for $6b.

When you are spending someone elses money, it will cost $70b, or $800b, or $4500b. Who cares, doesn’t matter, someone elses money.

Kingy said:

When you are spending someone elses money, it will cost $70b, or $800b, or $4500b. Who cares, doesn’t matter, someone elses money.

More profitable to minimise success.