Just a quick heads up about a show on SBS tonight discussing Otzi.

stan101 said:

Just a quick heads up about a show on SBS tonight discussing Otzi.

who/what is Otzi?

CrazyNeutrino said:

stan101 said:

Just a quick heads up about a show on SBS tonight discussing Otzi.

who/what is Otzi?

That frozen bloke they found in the Alps.

Read a book on him ages ago. If I remember he had been in a fight. He had open wounds and arrow heads embedded in him. His stomach contents placed him in the the Northern Italy region.

Unfortunately people who found him used part of his home made snow shoes or back pack to try dig him out, thinking they were just using any old stick or branch.

Thanks Stan101.

I believe I’ve seen this one, but given the other dreck on tonight, I think it’s worth watching again.

Doesn’t say repeat.

I’ve got Konrad Spindler’s The Man in the Ice, which was the first published book on Ötzi, by one of the initial researchers. Unfortunately Spindler died before the arrowhead in Ötzi’s back was discovered, so had no idea about the dark side of the story.

Prematurely aged, with leathery, wrinkled skin, deep-set eyes, and a shaggy beard, this new reconstruction of “Ötzi” the Iceman is a far cry from past reconstructions that showed him as a strapping middle-aged man.

Notably, the new model, developed by Dutch artists Alfons and Adrie Kennis, has brown eyes based on recent research that showed the 5,000-year-old Iceman did not have blue eyes, as previously thought.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/02/pictures/110225-otzi-iceman-new-face-science-mummy-oetzi/

So why are they puzzled about him having unfinished arrows? Could have just been to the shop for the bits and hadn’t put them together yet.

The shop guy told him it would take 6-8 weeks.

t-shirt all year round.

Nah, you buy the bits and construct the arrows yourself. Although I pay to buy premade arrows. I just specify the shaft material, what size, what tip and what colour fletches I want. But one of our archers in the club makes his own arrows. Imports special wooden shafts from Britain and then tip and fletches them himself. Otzi would have had to make his own. So I would expect him to have bits.

As I mentioned earlier, I was amazed at all the kit Otzi was carrying, so many different kinds of tools and goods.

Perhaps he was a trader himself.

buffy said:

Perhaps he was a trader himself.

Anyone who travelled long distances was a trader in those days.

Why didn’t they defrost him in a special box instead of moving him after defrosting? He just said it was risky.

Mr buffy has just commented on his short stature…..in comparison with what we saw a couple of weeks ago in relation to Aboriginal Australians from some 10,000 year prior to Otzi’s time.

Over then back? Pollen sounds to me like good evidence he went down valley between summits. Why all the stuff about returning to danger for reasons we will never know?

See, he was trading! Had to go and get more stock!

:)

buffy said:

Perhaps he was a trader himself.

Good theory. Or he might’ve been moving house for some reason.

“His last months were traumatic”

Well, der. Yes. Life was hard in those times. We live charmed and lucky lives these days. In times past violent death, childhood death, hard life, hunger were normal for a great many people.

PM 2Ring said:

buffy said:

Perhaps he was a trader himself.

Good theory. Or he might’ve been moving house for some reason.

my guesses he was running from something or someone – hence the unusual location and not being buried

wookiemeister said:

PM 2Ring said:

buffy said:

Perhaps he was a trader himself.

Good theory. Or he might’ve been moving house for some reason.

my guesses he was running from something or someone – hence the unusual location and not being buried

Yeah. He was wounded, ran away over the mountains, but collapsed from his injuries and then carked it from the cold.

My best guess anyway.

wookiemeister said:

PM 2Ring said:

buffy said:

Perhaps he was a trader himself.

Good theory. Or he might’ve been moving house for some reason.

my guesses he was running from something or someone – hence the unusual location and not being buried

Stealth said:

wookiemeister said:

PM 2Ring said:

Good theory. Or he might’ve been moving house for some reason.

my guesses he was running from something or someone – hence the unusual location and not being buried

Try again. He was not buried because he died in a remote location where few people venture. Even in this day and age we don’t bury a lot of people that die in mountainous regions.

buffy said:

Mr buffy has just commented on his short stature…..in comparison with what we saw a couple of weeks ago in relation to Aboriginal Australians from some 10,000 year prior to Otzi’s time.

The stature of people in pre-agricultural times depending on quantity and the nutritional value of foods available to them, must have varied considerably, but people relying on agriculture were certainly shorter in stature when compared to those who kept their hunter/gathering lifestyle. Agriculture initially was apparently limited to a small number of produce that were consumed year around. The hunter/gatherers would be eating a far greater variety of foods and so not only was their stature, but also their general health including teeth, much better.

I have seen two lengthy documentaries about Otzi and I think the last one stated that he had an arrow in his back and was likely being pursued. There was some discussion about whether his pursuers caught him and shot him with the arrow where he died, or if he had died of earlier injuries.

Bubblecar said:

Doesn’t say repeat.

I got to see it on Cable – a benefit of overly cashed up in laws :)

It was still worth watching again.

A good documentary, apart from one rather silly rhetorical question (“Why was he alone?” Since it’s impossible to shoot yourself in the back with an arrow, I think we can safely conclude he wasn’t alone).

I suppose they mean, why was he not among friends

Bubblecar said:

A good documentary, apart from one rather silly rhetorical question (“Why was he alone?” Since it’s impossible to shoot yourself in the back with an arrow, I think we can safely conclude he wasn’t alone).

Shoot an arrow straight up, lie down and wait for Newton/Eistien type laws to take effect.

>Eistien

Was he the bloke who came up with the theory that shooting an arrow straight up and then lying down wasn’t the brightest of ideas?

The leftover copper axe is interesting, surely if it was an external enemy then it would have been taken.

The leftover copper axe is interesting, surely if it was an external enemy then it would have been taken.

—-

Maybe he managed to kill his enemies before dying

dv said:

I suppose they mean, why was he not among friends

Even then, look at recent assaults on Everest. People get in trouble and they are left as is, unburied. Finding a frozen body on Everest does not mean that body was alone when death occurred.

dv said:

I suppose they mean, why was he not among friends

He might have been, we don’t know. He could have been murdered by his own brother. It’s anyone’s guess.

And as they pointed out, had he fallen 15 metres in either direction, his body would have been lost forever in the moving glacier. For all we know there could have been other bodies associated with this incident that have been destroyed.

tauto said:

The leftover copper axe is interesting, surely if it was an external enemy then it would have been taken.

I can think of a few scenarios, a sudden attack, he managed to fall or crawl into cover, attackers fled in the face of immediate counterattack, defenders in turn fled before attackers regrouped. Could be a simple as that.

I didn’t see the show, Stealth. I am just guessing what they may have meant by that.

sibeen said:

>Eistien

Was he the bloke who came up with the theory that shooting an arrow straight up and then lying down wasn’t the brightest of ideas?

Nope, he was an office bod, who worked in the office that made sure ice age alpine explorers had paid for their tents.

i think it was longfellow…

I shot an Arrow into the air
It fell to earth I know not where,
For so swiftly it flew, the sight
Could not foll….AAAArrrrrGGGGGhhhhhhhh

dv said:

I didn’t see the show, Stealth. I am just guessing what they may have meant by that.

I haven’t seen it either yet, but I have recorded it. I am just throwing up other solutions to the scenarios posted here.

As an aside, there must be hundreds of spots where remains of old battles lay undiscovered. Some of the big ones they are still not sure to this day where they occurred. And Russia must be crawling with buried caches of brass cannon disposed of in swamps by Turks, Swiss, Russians themselves and the French.

oh yeah – I better to remember to watch it….

it’s up on SBS webiste :)

Stealth said:

dv said:

I didn’t see the show, Stealth. I am just guessing what they may have meant by that.

I haven’t seen it either yet, but I have recorded it. I am just throwing up other solutions to the scenarios posted here.

—-

Well if we throw up scenerios then we are amateur forensic scientists unless we have some evidence.

Stealth said:

dv said:

I didn’t see the show, Stealth. I am just guessing what they may have meant by that.

I haven’t seen it either yet, but I have recorded it. I am just throwing up other solutions to the scenarios posted here.

The angle of penetration shows that arrow was fired from below where the victim was standing.

I haven’t seen it either yet, but I have recorded it. I am just throwing up other solutions to the scenarios posted here.

—-

Seems there are so many possibilities.

Maybe Otzi’s gang was set upon by another group. Otzi was killed and the others ran, with the enemy on their tails. Maybe the rest of the Otzi boys were killed, and their stuff looted, so the assailants couldn’t be fucked going back up the hill to find that other one and see what he was carrying.

Or maybe the Otzi boys got clean away, and the enemy went back to look for Otzi and just plain couldn’t find him.

We could make up stories all day.

Bubblecar said:

Stealth said:

dv said:

I didn’t see the show, Stealth. I am just guessing what they may have meant by that.

I haven’t seen it either yet, but I have recorded it. I am just throwing up other solutions to the scenarios posted here.

The angle of penetration shows that arrow was fired from below where the victim was standing.

Or doing Pilates while waiting for his arrow to return to earth.

Bubblecar said:

Stealth said:

dv said:

I didn’t see the show, Stealth. I am just guessing what they may have meant by that.

I haven’t seen it either yet, but I have recorded it. I am just throwing up other solutions to the scenarios posted here.

The angle of penetration shows that arrow was fired from below where the victim was standing.

which means the person firing the arrow was below the target

he was being followed

how many people where following him?

http://www.sbs.com.au/documentary/video/40304707865/Iceman-Autopsy

“This content is currently unavailable”

dv said:

http://www.sbs.com.au/documentary/video/40304707865/Iceman-Autopsy

“This content is currently unavailable”

it’s working fer me… but them I’m Australia (last time I checked)

dv said:

http://www.sbs.com.au/documentary/video/40304707865/Iceman-Autopsy

“This content is currently unavailable”

I liked the footage of him following the peak as in a mountain pass. I read that Broadway in America follows an old Indian path.

Yes, it seems I have been geoblocked

dv said:

Yes, it seems I have been geoblocked

maybe Robadob has already blown up Singapore’s dams?

dv said:

Yes, it seems I have been geoblocked

well that is a violation of your rights

!

geoblocked can just get blocked

CrazyNeutrino said:

dv said:

Yes, it seems I have been geoblocked

well that is a violation of your rights

!

geoblocked can just get blocked

FUCK GEOBLOCK

grrr

artificial crap

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

dv said:

Yes, it seems I have been geoblocked

well that is a violation of your rights

!

geoblocked can just get blocked

FUCK GEOBLOCK

grrr

artificial crap

Yeah, the Internet was so natural before geoblocking came along.

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

dv said:

Yes, it seems I have been geoblocked

well that is a violation of your rights

!

geoblocked can just get blocked

FUCK GEOBLOCK

grrr

artificial crap

All these geo blockers can go to jail

and the regional code people, Jail a well

throw away the keys

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

well that is a violation of your rights

!

geoblocked can just get blocked

FUCK GEOBLOCK

grrr

artificial crap

Yeah, the Internet was so natural before geoblocking came along.

scumbags

drag them though the courts

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

FUCK GEOBLOCK

grrr

artificial crap

Yeah, the Internet was so natural before geoblocking came along.

scumbags

drag them though the courts

Of course I am not saying that I agree with geoblocking CN, just pointing out a flaw in you analogy.

poor Otzi, he knew nothing of the interenet

Australian taxpayers coughed up to bring that documentary to SBS, so even though it inconveniences me personally, I see that it is reasonable that viewership is restricted to Australia.

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stealth said:

Yeah, the Internet was so natural before geoblocking came along.

scumbags

drag them though the courts

Of course I am not saying that I agree with geoblocking CN, just pointing out a flaw in you analogy.

I am not going to to sex with them Geoblockers

was that my flaw?

tauto said:

poor Otzi, he knew nothing of the interenet

And the Sardinians want him repatriated.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

scumbags

drag them though the courts

Of course I am not saying that I agree with geoblocking CN, just pointing out a flaw in you analogy.

I am not going to to sex with them Geoblockers

was that my flaw?

geo blockers need jail

And the Sardinians want him repatriated.

—-

What do the Sardinians have to do with it?

dv said:

And the Sardinians want him repatriated.

—-

What do the Sardinians have to do with it?

DNA evidence indicated he was brought up in Sardinia.

Skunkworks said:

dv said:

And the Sardinians want him repatriated.

—-

What do the Sardinians have to do with it?

DNA evidence indicated he was brought up in Sardinia.

Well, not quite. The closest match with his DNA is with people now living in Sardinia.

Bubblecar said:

Skunkworks said:

dv said:

And the Sardinians want him repatriated.

—-

What do the Sardinians have to do with it?

DNA evidence indicated he was brought up in Sardinia.

Well, not quite. The closest match with his DNA is with people now living in Sardinia.

Fair enough.

A tooth enamel analysis might indicate where he was brought up. What a world we live in.

tauto said:

poor Otzi, he knew nothing of the interenet

Who knows?

He may have been leaning over the screen, updating his facebook status when some random crook shot him in the back and stole his laptop.

It’s happened before, you know.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html

This one?

kii said:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-murder-mystery.html

This one?

Looks like it.

Now, while I was listening to Otzi and washing up last night, I thought I heard them say he had the genetic markers for cardiovascular disease. Taking that to it’s logical (maybe) conclusion, you have to then say that these things are not a part of modern living? And that perhaps it is not the dietary changes that have made us seem more susceptible? Maybe we just know how to notice them now?