Toilets can shoot spray 2 meters into the air, minute particles that most people cannot see

so if hospital toilets where redesigned to close the toilet seat before flushing

I would imagine that this would reduce the spread of bacteria by a significant factor.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Toilets can shoot spray 2 meters into the air, minute particles that most people cannot see

so if hospital toilets where redesigned to close the toilet seat before flushing

I would imagine that this would reduce the spread of bacteria by a significant factor.

yeah

you also try to flush using your foot, don’t touch the handle

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

CrazyNeutrino said:

Toilets can shoot spray 2 meters into the air, minute particles that most people cannot see

so if hospital toilets where redesigned to close the toilet seat before flushing

I would imagine that this would reduce the spread of bacteria by a significant factor.

Is there much bacterial infection in hospitals that can be atributed to toilets

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Toilets can shoot spray 2 meters into the air, minute particles that most people cannot see

so if hospital toilets where redesigned to close the toilet seat before flushing

I would imagine that this would reduce the spread of bacteria by a significant factor.

Is there much bacterial infection in hospitals that can be atributed to toilets

No.

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Toilets can shoot spray 2 meters into the air, minute particles that most people cannot see

so if hospital toilets where redesigned to close the toilet seat before flushing

I would imagine that this would reduce the spread of bacteria by a significant factor.

yeah

you also try to flush using your foot, don’t touch the handle

that is a good idea, wookie

and while people are washing their hands, peoples shoes can be cleaned as well, using simple water

OCDC said:

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Toilets can shoot spray 2 meters into the air, minute particles that most people cannot see

so if hospital toilets where redesigned to close the toilet seat before flushing

I would imagine that this would reduce the spread of bacteria by a significant factor.

Is there much bacterial infection in hospitals that can be atributed to toilets

No.

Yes your overlooking the two meter spray fact

CrazyNeutrino said:

OCDC said:

Stealth said:

Is there much bacterial infection in hospitals that can be atributed to toilets

No.

Yes your overlooking the two meter spray fact

No, it doesn’t matter if it sprays 10m, if there is no significant bacterial growth from it. Which is what is being said.

Think before you flush or brush
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1839

from the link

bacterial mist has also been shown to stay in the air for at least two hours

One of my friends from high school has made a habit of putting toilet seat lids down before she flushes. She started doing this about four years ago when she heard that when toilets are flushed, water droplets are expelled from the toilet bowl into the air, and when they land, other areas of the bathroom get “contaminated” by toilet water. That always amused me, but when I went over to her house, I humored her and followed this personal rule of hers. However, I didn’t know—and chances are, she didn’t know—just how justified she was in worrying about in what is known as the “aerosol effect” in toilets. My discovery that there is actually a technical term for this phenomenon was the first indication that there might be something scientifically legitimate to it. It seems to have first been brought to light by University of Arizona environmental microbiologist Charles Gerba when he published a scientific article in 1975 describing bacterial and viral aerosols due to toilet flushing (2). He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

so what were the results and are they really disturbing?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Think before you flush or brush
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1839

from the link

bacterial mist has also been shown to stay in the air for at least two hours

One of my friends from high school has made a habit of putting toilet seat lids down before she flushes. She started doing this about four years ago when she heard that when toilets are flushed, water droplets are expelled from the toilet bowl into the air, and when they land, other areas of the bathroom get “contaminated” by toilet water. That always amused me, but when I went over to her house, I humored her and followed this personal rule of hers. However, I didn’t know—and chances are, she didn’t know—just how justified she was in worrying about in what is known as the “aerosol effect” in toilets. My discovery that there is actually a technical term for this phenomenon was the first indication that there might be something scientifically legitimate to it. It seems to have first been brought to light by University of Arizona environmental microbiologist Charles Gerba when he published a scientific article in 1975 describing bacterial and viral aerosols due to toilet flushing (2). He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

I am not saying that the aerosol effect isn’t there. I am saying that it does not appear to be killing people left, right and centre…

… or even making them a little bit sick.

Toilets are probably the least of your worries.

Aerosols from toilets are mostly associated with the filler valve, and that should not be exposed, but that is treated water anyway. The newer units with reduced flush volumes are also less likely to chuck aerosols from the bowl during the flushing process.

Flushing Lidless Toilet Sends Spray Of Diarrhea-Causing Bacteria Into The Air: Study
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/06/flush-toilet-diarrhea-bacteria-lidless-clostridium-difficile-_n_1181100.html

from the link

It may be common sense, but we all need the reminder — flush the toilet with the lid down, lest you send a spray of diarrhea-causing bacteria up into the air, according to a new study.

The study, published in the Journal of Hospital Infection, shows that the bacteria Clostridium difficile, which is known to cause diarrhea, is sprayed 25 centimeters, or nearly 10 inches, above the toilet seat when you flush without putting the lid down, ABC News reported. The most bacteria was found right after the toilet was flushed, with the number of bacteria declining as time passed on.

“Almost everywhere we go, except in some public spaces, we have lids on our commodes. But not everyone puts them down when they flush,” Dr. William Schaffner, chair of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, told ABC News. “Doing so will reduce this type of environmental contamination very substantially.”

Researchers from Leeds General Infirmary examined the airborne suspension of C. difficile bacteria in hospital toilets after they had been flushed, as well as which surfaces were contaminated with the bacteria after flushing, Medscape reported.
The researchers found that bacteria was 12 times higher after lidless toilets had been flushed, compared with when toilets were flushed with the lid down, according to Medscape.

more…

Boris said:

He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

so what were the results and are they really disturbing?

Do some research Boris,

CN, you keep showing that researchers that go looking for bacteria near toilets are finding some, but that is not really a suprise. What you need to show is that that bacteria is causing a problem.

So where is this C. difficile coming from in he first place?

i’m trying to educate you to do the research CN. personally it doesan’t interest me that much. referring to the huff post etc isn’t doing research.

also selective quoting doesn’t help. read the whole article at http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1839

>>>Toilets are probably the least of your worries.

other way around

Clostridium difficile, which is known to cause diarrhea, is sprayed 25 centimeters, or nearly 10 inches, above the toilet seat when you flush without putting the lid down

Obviously, the idea of toilet water being unknowingly distributed around the bathroom is less than appealing, but a study of this sort calls for looking in detail at precisely what microscopic organisms we’re dealing with here, even if we don’t really want to know. Put rather graphically, it can be summed up as the F3 force: Fecal Fountain Factor, compounded by the favorable temperatures for bacterial propagation in room temperature toilet water (3). Using a more scientific viewpoint, streptococcus, staphylococcus, E. coli and shigella bacteria, hepatitis A virus and the common cold virus are all common inhabitants of public bathrooms, but just because they’re all over the place doesn’t mean we necessarily get sick. After all, humans carry disease-causing organisms on our bodies all the times, but with healthy immune systems, the quantities in which these organisms exist is not enough to affect us, particularly with a good hand-washing after every restroom visit (4). This begs the question, however, of the number of people who actually wash their hands after going to the toilet, and more importantly, the number who wash their hands effectively. Simply rinsing one’s hands under running water for a few seconds without soap, as some people do, is not effective at all. The way to ensure maximum standards of hygiene is to lather your palms, the back of your hands, in between fingers, and under fingernails for 20-30 seconds with soap and hot water; the friction will kill off the bathroom bacteria (6).

Toilet seats have actually been determined to be the least infected place in the bathroom because the environment is too dry to support a large bacterial population (7). In accordance with that theory, the underside of the seat has a higher than average microbial population. The place in a restroom with the highest concentration of microbial colonies in restrooms is, surprisingly, the sink, due in part to accumulations of water where these organisms breed freely after landing their aerial journey. While toilets are obviously not sterile environments, they tend to not be as bad as people think because they receive more attention and are cleaned more often. “If an alien came from space and studied the bacterial counts, he probably would conclude he should wash his hands in your toilet and crap in your sink,” Gerba said (2). The alien would almost certainly not put your toothbrush in his mouth because, with its traditional, uncovered spot in the bathroom, it is one of the hotspots for fecal bacteria and germs spewed into the air by the aerosol effect (5). Understandably, the toothbrush with toilet water droplets on it is one of the most retold horror stories to emerge from Gerba’s report.

here’s my selective quoting.

CrazyNeutrino said:

OCDC said:

Stealth said:

Is there much bacterial infection in hospitals that can be atributed to toilets

No.

Yes your overlooking the two meter spray fact

No, I amn’t. I am an obsessed toilet-lid-downer.

However, as infectious diseases registrar, I did not observe transmission of gastroenteritis that could be attributed to toilet flush aerosols.

Stealth said:

CN, you keep showing that researchers that go looking for bacteria near toilets are finding some, but that is not really a suprise. What you need to show is that that bacteria is causing a problem.

Is bacteria spread a problem in hospitals

Yes

why do nurses wash their hands

to reduce the spread of germs

and such research would only link a to b

but I think that research needs to be done as well

Boris said:

He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

so what were the results and are they really disturbing?

Don Burke talked about them, and yes, they disturbed me. (Of course, that’s pretty darn easy to do, but he did have data with coliforms being sprayed around bathrooms. That doesn’t mean one will get a disease though.)

CN listen to Alex. she knows her shit. to coin a phrase.

Don Burke talked about them

same or different DB to burke’s backyard?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stealth said:

CN, you keep showing that researchers that go looking for bacteria near toilets are finding some, but that is not really a suprise. What you need to show is that that bacteria is causing a problem.

Is bacteria spread a problem in hospitals

Yes

why do nurses wash their hands

to reduce the spread of germs

and such research would only link a to b

but I think that research needs to be done as well

That is spread of germs on hands, from one person’s skin or fomites to another.

Take for example, intubated patients in ICU. There are studies of extremely rare (and terrible) bugs being spread from one patient to another. Clearly intubated patient 2 did not inhale the bugs from intubated patient 1’s toilet – it’s hands and fomites that are bad.

Boris said:

CN listen to Alex. she knows her shit. to coin a phrase.

:-)

Boris said:

CN listen to Alex. she knows her shit. to coin a phrase.

You saying they don’t know shit Boris? ;)

more research needs to done

but it does not take much effort redesigning toliets so that they can only be flushed with the lid done

more jobs for for people

cleaner bathrooms

I dont need to do research to work that one out

Boris said:

Don Burke talked about them

same or different DB to burke’s backyard?

Mythbuster did an episode on bathroom baterial loadings. First toilet v Last toilet, Air dry v Towel Dry and something else.

I have noticed how secondhand nature in some hospitals is the hand gel rub when staff leave the room now.

Boris said:

Don Burke talked about them

same or different DB to burke’s backyard?

The same one. He (or his minion) swabbed bathroom services and toothbrushes etc, and found coliforms on them which were reduced if the lid was down when flushing. Then when I actually had access to resources, I researched, and he was right.

The goal of new hospital design is “one bum per seat” anyway. I’m more concerned about getting bugs from the handle than aerosols, but I like to minimise the chance anyway.

Skunkworks said:

I have noticed how secondhand nature in some hospitals is the hand gel rub when staff leave the room now.

I counted for a while one day – I stopped when I got to 100, which was before the end of the wardround, and that was without 100% compliance to the ’5 moments’ of hand hygeine.

CrazyNeutrino said:

more research needs to done

but it does not take much effort redesigning toliets so that they can only be flushed with the lid done

more jobs for for people

cleaner bathrooms

I dont need to do research to work that one out

But you need to research if doing stuff that just creates jobs if economically worthwhile.

Ive been closing my seat for a while now

things change slowly

OCDC said:

The goal of new hospital design is “one bum per seat” anyway. I’m more concerned about getting bugs from the handle than aerosols, but I like to minimise the chance anyway.

.

Yes.

I get a clean paper hand towel to open the door after washing and drying my hands.

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

more research needs to done

but it does not take much effort redesigning toliets so that they can only be flushed with the lid done

more jobs for for people

cleaner bathrooms

I dont need to do research to work that one out

But you need to research if doing stuff that just creates jobs if economically worthwhile.

the research will find what people suspect

Research from Dr. Charles Gerba Finds Average Toilet Paper & Towel Dispensers Have More Bacteria Than Average Toilet Seat

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-from-dr-charles-gerba-finds-average-toilet-paper—towel-dispensers-have-more-bacteria-than-average-toilet-seat-62153357.html

Kimberly-Clark Professional Launches Exclusive Product Solution With Microban Antimicrobial Protection to Address Concerns About Exposure to Bacteria
ROSWELL, Ga., June 17 /PRNewswire/ — If you thought a toilet seat was the most bacteria-laden place in a public restroom, think again.
According to new research conducted by microbiologist Dr. Charles Gerba of the University of Arizona, the average toilet paper dispenser has more than 150 times the amount of bacteria than the average toilet seat. The picture isn’t much improved when it comes to paper towel dispensers. These were found to have over 50 times more bacteria on average than a typical public restroom toilet seat.

more…

CrazyNeutrino said:

Research from Dr. Charles Gerba Finds Average Toilet Paper & Towel Dispensers Have More Bacteria Than Average Toilet Seat

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-from-dr-charles-gerba-finds-average-toilet-paper—towel-dispensers-have-more-bacteria-than-average-toilet-seat-62153357.html

Kimberly-Clark Professional Launches Exclusive Product Solution With Microban Antimicrobial Protection to Address Concerns About Exposure to Bacteria
ROSWELL, Ga., June 17 /PRNewswire/ — If you thought a toilet seat was the most bacteria-laden place in a public restroom, think again.
According to new research conducted by microbiologist Dr. Charles Gerba of the University of Arizona, the average toilet paper dispenser has more than 150 times the amount of bacteria than the average toilet seat. The picture isn’t much improved when it comes to paper towel dispensers. These were found to have over 50 times more bacteria on average than a typical public restroom toilet seat.

more…

Yet there is no causation or link to infection, just a head count…

Another efficiency I noted that it was orderlies that help the patients that need help in the morning showers and toilet routine and one nurse flits around checking various things but is also freed up.

I think hospital bathrooms need a complete redesign

automatic sliding doors (no hands touching any toilet doors)

automatic taps

auto dryers

auto toilet seats that lift for men then close before flushing

auto toilet paper dispenser

a commode that water cleans your bum without wiping

in other words a complete hands free bathroom

so now on with the research that needs to be done

poikilotherm said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Research from Dr. Charles Gerba Finds Average Toilet Paper & Towel Dispensers Have More Bacteria Than Average Toilet Seat

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-from-dr-charles-gerba-finds-average-toilet-paper—towel-dispensers-have-more-bacteria-than-average-toilet-seat-62153357.html

Kimberly-Clark Professional Launches Exclusive Product Solution With Microban Antimicrobial Protection to Address Concerns About Exposure to Bacteria
ROSWELL, Ga., June 17 /PRNewswire/ — If you thought a toilet seat was the most bacteria-laden place in a public restroom, think again.
According to new research conducted by microbiologist Dr. Charles Gerba of the University of Arizona, the average toilet paper dispenser has more than 150 times the amount of bacteria than the average toilet seat. The picture isn’t much improved when it comes to paper towel dispensers. These were found to have over 50 times more bacteria on average than a typical public restroom toilet seat.

more…

Yet there is no causation or link to infection, just a head count…

I dont think their looking properly yet

I dont trust hospital toilets

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think hospital bathrooms need a complete redesign

automatic sliding doors (no hands touching any toilet doors)

automatic taps

auto dryers

auto toilet seats that lift for men then close before flushing

auto toilet paper dispenser

a commode that water cleans your bum without wiping

in other words a complete hands free bathroom

so now on with the research that needs to be done

But you can’t show why this needs to happen (other than creating jobs…)

CrazyNeutrino said:

poikilotherm said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Research from Dr. Charles Gerba Finds Average Toilet Paper & Towel Dispensers Have More Bacteria Than Average Toilet Seat

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/research-from-dr-charles-gerba-finds-average-toilet-paper—towel-dispensers-have-more-bacteria-than-average-toilet-seat-62153357.html

Kimberly-Clark Professional Launches Exclusive Product Solution With Microban Antimicrobial Protection to Address Concerns About Exposure to Bacteria
ROSWELL, Ga., June 17 /PRNewswire/ — If you thought a toilet seat was the most bacteria-laden place in a public restroom, think again.
According to new research conducted by microbiologist Dr. Charles Gerba of the University of Arizona, the average toilet paper dispenser has more than 150 times the amount of bacteria than the average toilet seat. The picture isn’t much improved when it comes to paper towel dispensers. These were found to have over 50 times more bacteria on average than a typical public restroom toilet seat.

more…

Yet there is no causation or link to infection, just a head count…

I dont think their looking properly yet

I dont trust hospital toilets

is LOL GONE next?

poikilotherm said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

poikilotherm said:

Yet there is no causation or link to infection, just a head count…

I dont think their looking properly yet

I dont trust hospital toilets

is LOL GONE next?

I was waiting for someone to say that.

OCDC said:

poikilotherm said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I dont think their looking properly yet

I dont trust hospital toilets

is LOL GONE next?

I was waiting for someone to say that.

I knew you’d say that

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think hospital bathrooms need a complete redesign

automatic sliding doors (no hands touching any toilet doors)

automatic taps

auto dryers

auto toilet seats that lift for men then close before flushing

auto toilet paper dispenser

a commode that water cleans your bum without wiping

in other words a complete hands free bathroom

so now on with the research that needs to be done

But you can’t show why this needs to happen (other than creating jobs…)

such the research been done

no, so the research needs to be done

select one small hospital, say in the country

create a complete hands free toilet/bathroom and replace every old one with the new design

require all visitors to wash their hands and shoes upon arrival

shoes would be gently spray from underneath while the visitor washes their hands

then compare research notes after a certain time frame

poikilotherm said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

poikilotherm said:

Yet there is no causation or link to infection, just a head count…

I dont think their looking properly yet

I dont trust hospital toilets

is LOL GONE next?

ok I will remember this :)

and I will say, I told you so in a few years

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I think hospital bathrooms need a complete redesign

automatic sliding doors (no hands touching any toilet doors)

automatic taps

auto dryers

auto toilet seats that lift for men then close before flushing

auto toilet paper dispenser

a commode that water cleans your bum without wiping

in other words a complete hands free bathroom

so now on with the research that needs to be done

But you can’t show why this needs to happen (other than creating jobs…)

such the research been done

no, so the research needs to be done

select one small hospital, say in the country

create a complete hands free toilet/bathroom and replace every old one with the new design

require all visitors to wash their hands and shoes upon arrival

shoes would be gently spray from underneath while the visitor washes their hands

then compare research notes after a certain time frame

And what would be your criteria for confirming the need for change?

CrazyNeutrino said:

poikilotherm said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I dont think their looking properly yet

I dont trust hospital toilets

is LOL GONE next?

ok I will remember this :)

and I will say, I told you so in a few years

‘sif.

With your research methodology, I’m pretty safe.

So is bacterial transmission a major health issue in Australia?

Stealth said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Stealth said:

But you can’t show why this needs to happen (other than creating jobs…)

such the research been done

no, so the research needs to be done

select one small hospital, say in the country

create a complete hands free toilet/bathroom and replace every old one with the new design

require all visitors to wash their hands and shoes upon arrival

shoes would be gently spray from underneath while the visitor washes their hands

then compare research notes after a certain time frame

And what would be your criteria for confirming the need for change?

the need for cleaner hospitals

the need to keep bacteria spread minimized

Potential for aerosolization of Clostridium difficile after flushing toilets: the role of toilet lids in reducing environmental contamination risk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22137761

Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Toilet facilities in healthcare settings vary widely, but patient toilets are commonly shared and do not have lids. When a toilet is flushed without the lid closed, aerosol production may lead to surface contamination within the toilet environment.
AIM:
To substantiate the risks of airborne dissemination of C. difficile following flushing a toilet, in particular when lids are not fitted.
METHODS:
We performed in-situ testing, using faecal suspensions of C. difficile to simulate the bacterial burden found during disease, to measure C. difficile aerosolization. We also measured the extent of splashing occurring during flushing of two different toilet types commonly used in hospitals.

FINDINGS:
C. difficile was recoverable from air sampled at heights up to 25 cm above the toilet seat. The highest numbers of C. difficile were recovered from air sampled immediately following flushing, and then declined 8-fold after 60 min and a further 3-fold after 90 min. Surface contamination with C. difficile occurred within 90 min after flushing, demonstrating that relatively large droplets are released which then contaminate the immediate environment. The mean numbers of droplets emitted upon flushing by the lidless toilets in clinical areas were 15-47, depending on design. C. difficile aerosolization and surrounding environmental contamination occur when a lidless toilet is flushed.

CONCLUSION:
Lidless conventional toilets increase the risk of C. difficile environmental contamination, and we suggest that their use is discouraged, particularly in settings where CDI is common.

the need to keep bacteria spread minimized
————————-
Try looking into some of the latest research of autoimmune diseases

Stealth said:

the need to keep bacteria spread minimized
————————-
Try looking into some of the latest research of autoimmune diseases

No, you can do that research Stealth

that is much different to keeping toilets very clean

CrazyNeutrino said:

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Geoff D said:

Toilets are probably the least of your worries.

+1

neomyrtus_ said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Ive noticed that

but what is so bad about making hospitals cleaner?

?

neomyrtus_ said:

Geoff D said:

Toilets are probably the least of your worries.

+1

-1

but what is so bad about making hospitals cleaner?

nothing but with a limited supply of money it is best to target areas where that money will be most effective. toilets aren’t that area.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Ive noticed that

but what is so bad about making hospitals cleaner?

?

Feel free to go head and write a hygiene implimentation plan for public and private local hospital then, focussing on toilet lids that shut after use.

You could use a fleet of B-52s to disperse aerosol disinfectant..

Dropbear said:

You could use a fleet of B-52s to disperse aerosol disinfectant..

http://www.carscoops.com/2013/08/canadian-aerial-water-bomber.html

neomyrtus_ said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Yes there are now

but

there was a time when they did not have them

CrazyNeutrino said:

neomyrtus_ said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Yes there are now

but

there was a time when they did not have them

There was a time whrn we didn’t have toilets too. All things must pass.

neomyrtus_ said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Wash basins also produce areosols, of course, possibly more than toilets.

And I still want to know where all that C. difficile was coming from. Must have been some sick patients around.

CrazyNeutrino said:

neomyrtus_ said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

if visitors to hospitals were required to wash hands at reception areas before proceeding further

this would reduce spread of bacteria even further

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Yes there are now

but

there was a time when they did not have them

You’re just shifting goalposts.

There was a time when doctors didn’t even wash hands between dissecting bodies in the morgue and then delivering babies in the maternity ward. It took a brave and knowledgable epidemiologist to document that correlation (which turned out to be causative).

I didn’t say that advances were no longer necessary and don’t suggest that I have, since I only pointed out that there are steps already in place and there’s a fair bit of documentation which you haven’t referenced. You should demonstrate your knowledge of ALL risks and how they are mitigated in hospitals currently and how they could be improved. You’ve only singled out toilet lid closure. If you don’t know, then ask people here what are the risks of infection from what sources and give them a chance to answer. Then you will know how useful the toilet lid idea is.

I just realised – the last few hospital rooms I was in didn’t have toilet lids. Maybe one did.

neomyrtus_ said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

neomyrtus_ said:

There are hand sanitiser bottles in hospitals. In patients’ rooms, wards, ward entrances, toilets, everywhere. Haven’t you noticed? Effing everywhere. With big signs requesting people to use them. And hand wash basins. With instructions.

Yes there are now

but

there was a time when they did not have them

You’re just shifting goalposts.

There was a time when doctors didn’t even wash hands between dissecting bodies in the morgue and then delivering babies in the maternity ward. It took a brave and knowledgable epidemiologist to document that correlation (which turned out to be causative).

I didn’t say that advances were no longer necessary and don’t suggest that I have, since I only pointed out that there are steps already in place and there’s a fair bit of documentation which you haven’t referenced. You should demonstrate your knowledge of ALL risks and how they are mitigated in hospitals currently and how they could be improved. You’ve only singled out toilet lid closure. If you don’t know, then ask people here what are the risks of infection from what sources and give them a chance to answer. Then you will know how useful the toilet lid idea is.

what does that have to with shifting goalposts

hospital hygiene is a work in progress, historical evidence says so

if you read the articles I think there is a case for more research

Last time I went into hospital I was required to wear special knee length socks for my entire stay over three days, and was asked to change these socks every day

maybe they can improve on patient clothing by using this antibacterial coating
http://www.gizmag.com/polyphenol-antibacterial-coating/28792/

maybe they can improve on patient clothing by using this antibacterial coating
http://www.gizmag.com/polyphenol-antibacterial-coating/28792/

go on someone poo poo the idea

CrazyNeutrino said:

maybe they can improve on patient clothing by using this antibacterial coating
http://www.gizmag.com/polyphenol-antibacterial-coating/28792/

go on someone poo poo the idea

maybe they could coat entire bathrooms and toilets with this antibacterial coating

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

maybe they can improve on patient clothing by using this antibacterial coating
http://www.gizmag.com/polyphenol-antibacterial-coating/28792/

go on someone poo poo the idea

maybe they could coat entire bathrooms and toilets with this antibacterial coating

keyboards and mice and hospitals need redesigning as well

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

maybe they can improve on patient clothing by using this antibacterial coating
http://www.gizmag.com/polyphenol-antibacterial-coating/28792/

go on someone poo poo the idea

maybe they could coat entire bathrooms and toilets with this antibacterial coating

keyboards and mice and hospitals need redesigning as well

nurses uniforms and doctors/surgeons clothing as well

CrazyNeutrino said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

maybe they can improve on patient clothing by using this antibacterial coating
http://www.gizmag.com/polyphenol-antibacterial-coating/28792/

go on someone poo poo the idea

maybe they could coat entire bathrooms and toilets with this antibacterial coating

Why? How many times do you see a patient licking a bathroom wall?

First time I had a nosocomial infection, the offending doctor was within a few days advised that if he wished to continue in health care he should choose an area where he had no contact with actual patients, He was a real screw-up.

The second time was when Pseudomonas aeruginosa got into my portacath, causing much mankiness. With so many ‘stabs’ in the area over a couple of weeks, it was inevitable that a bug sneaked past my very careful carers.

Hands! Hands and equipment. That’s where the real problem lies.

Geoff D said:

Hands! Hands and equipment. That’s where the real problem lies.

Cut them off and bleach everyone’s GIT, that’ll fix it.

Geoff D said:

First time I had a nosocomial infection, the offending doctor was within a few days advised that if he wished to continue in health care he should choose an area where he had no contact with actual patients, He was a real screw-up.

The second time was when Pseudomonas aeruginosa got into my portacath, causing much mankiness. With so many ‘stabs’ in the area over a couple of weeks, it was inevitable that a bug sneaked past my very careful carers.

I forgot the very first one, back in 1966. Galloping crutch rot caught from an unclean orderley’s razor (no diposables back then) during preparation for an operation. Not helped by a spray-on skin-like dressing trapping the stuff on site for a good week. Talk about itchy nuts!

Why? How many times do you see a patient licking a bathroom wall?

to combat bacteria dispersion I would hope

>Galloping crutch rot

Sounds like a nasty jockey disease.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Why? How many times do you see a patient licking a bathroom wall?

to combat bacteria dispersion I would hope

How many people have you seen rubbing their hands on a toilet wall, then going out into the ward without sanitising?

You are talking about A problem. Not THE problem.

Bubblecar said:

>Galloping crutch rot

Sounds like a nasty jockey disease.

Otherwise known in the Raj as Dhobi Rash.

Geoff D said:

Hands! Hands and equipment. That’s where the real problem lies.

yes that anti bacterial coating could be used just about every where

and perhaps a special second skin glove could be developed with the antibacterial coating

the gloves would need to be strong, perhaps could be re used or be disposable

I think much more could be done

CrazyNeutrino said:

Geoff D said:

Hands! Hands and equipment. That’s where the real problem lies.

yes that anti bacterial coating could be used just about every where

and perhaps a special second skin glove could be developed with the antibacterial coating

the gloves would need to be strong, perhaps could be re used or be disposable

I think much more could be done

Well, get started on your cost-benefit study then.

I would re-design the air ducting/ air conditioning systems as well, with the anti-bacterial coatings and way more dust/bacteria filtering

lots of possibilities for bacteria spread in current ones I have seen, some air intakes and vents covered in dust

some hospitals are complacent

yep

CrazyNeutrino said:

I would re-design the air ducting/ air conditioning systems as well, with the anti-bacterial coatings and way more dust/bacteria filtering

lots of possibilities for bacteria spread in current ones I have seen, some air intakes and vents covered in dust

some hospitals are complacent

yep

‘Scuse me – hospital air conditioning would have to be one of the more heavily monitored systems, because of legionella. Then where did the legionella last attack? From the low temperature showers. Professor Paterson was telling me the other day that they still haven’t worked out where the legionella got into (and multiplied) the Wesley’s water supply system.

I am privileged to be able to squeeze some normal conversation into my consultations with the Prof., and occasionally overhear some scary phone conversations. Like last time, discussing with another doctor a poor lady who had contracted meningitis during spinal surgery. That sort of shit goes well beyond what you are carrying on about – that is a severe breakdown in the sanitation barrier.

I know you are well intentioned, but the Prof would quietly, patiently, and very politely (because that’s the way he is) point out all the places where you are heading off in unproductive directions.
http://www.uqccr.uq.edu.au/research/research-profiles/professor-david-paterson.aspx

When I was at the l’opital with suspected TB, they blocked the air-conditioner vents off to my room in 40ºC weather.

I would remove all light switches as well, replaced by smart sensors that track peoples movements in and out or people moving down corridors etc

new hospital equipment would be voice controlled to reduce hand interaction and also be secured by voice recnognition to respond to certain voices etc

Way more can be done, way more

Geoff D said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I would re-design the air ducting/ air conditioning systems as well, with the anti-bacterial coatings and way more dust/bacteria filtering

lots of possibilities for bacteria spread in current ones I have seen, some air intakes and vents covered in dust

some hospitals are complacent

yep

‘Scuse me – hospital air conditioning would have to be one of the more heavily monitored systems, because of legionella. Then where did the legionella last attack? From the low temperature showers. Professor Paterson was telling me the other day that they still haven’t worked out where the legionella got into (and multiplied) the Wesley’s water supply system.

I am privileged to be able to squeeze some normal conversation into my consultations with the Prof., and occasionally overhear some scary phone conversations. Like last time, discussing with another doctor a poor lady who had contracted meningitis during spinal surgery. That sort of shit goes well beyond what you are carrying on about – that is a severe breakdown in the sanitation barrier.

I know you are well intentioned, but the Prof would quietly, patiently, and very politely (because that’s the way he is) point out all the places where you are heading off in unproductive directions.
http://www.uqccr.uq.edu.au/research/research-profiles/professor-david-paterson.aspx

I have seen dust coated air vents!

CrazyNeutrino said:

I would remove all light switches as well, replaced by smart sensors that track peoples movements in and out or people moving down corridors etc

new hospital equipment would be voice controlled to reduce hand interaction and also be secured by voice recnognition to respond to certain voices etc

Way more can be done, way more

As I said, get busy on your cost benefit analysis.

if it was for patients like you geoff using up all those hospital resources we could have clean dunnies.

Geoff D said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I would remove all light switches as well, replaced by smart sensors that track peoples movements in and out or people moving down corridors etc

new hospital equipment would be voice controlled to reduce hand interaction and also be secured by voice recnognition to respond to certain voices etc

Way more can be done, way more

As I said, get busy on your cost benefit analysis.

I’m an visual artist, that will be someone else’s job, I’m not changing my career now

Given such out of control, raging problems with hospitals and that we have overpopulation issues just around the corner, I propose the ill be taken to specilist, euthanised and the remains used for making biofuel to power our towns and cities.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Geoff D said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

I would remove all light switches as well, replaced by smart sensors that track peoples movements in and out or people moving down corridors etc

new hospital equipment would be voice controlled to reduce hand interaction and also be secured by voice recnognition to respond to certain voices etc

Way more can be done, way more

As I said, get busy on your cost benefit analysis.

I’m an visual artist, that will be someone else’s job, I’m not changing my career now

Sorry, if you talk the talk you have to walk the walk.

Anyway, I’m not going to read the whole thread though I have seen signs in hospital dunnies that said please close the lid before flushing to avoid the aerosol spread of particulates.

Has anyone reached a conclusion yet?

Michael V said:

Given such out of control, raging problems with hospitals and that we have overpopulation issues just around the corner, I propose the ill be taken to specilist, euthanised and the remains used for making biofuel to power our towns and cities.

My body can barely power me at the moment, let alone a town or city.

yes. it’s not a big problem.

roughbarked said:

Anyway, I’m not going to read the whole thread though I have seen signs in hospital dunnies that said please close the lid before flushing to avoid the aerosol spread of particulates.

Has anyone reached a conclusion yet?

Yes. That CN should prepare a comprehensive cost benefit analysis of his ideas and submit to the Gubmint.

Geoff D said:

Michael V said:

Given such out of control, raging problems with hospitals and that we have overpopulation issues just around the corner, I propose the ill be taken to specilist, euthanised and the remains used for making biofuel to power our towns and cities.

My body can barely power me at the moment, let alone a town or city.

.

Ha – low temp oxidation.

Have you tried burning it yet?

Michael V said:

Geoff D said:

Michael V said:

Given such out of control, raging problems with hospitals and that we have overpopulation issues just around the corner, I propose the ill be taken to specilist, euthanised and the remains used for making biofuel to power our towns and cities.

My body can barely power me at the moment, let alone a town or city.

.

Ha – low temp oxidation.

Have you tried burning it yet?

No. That’d hurt!

those broom and mops could do with that anti-bacterial coating as well

I have witnessed cleaners doing minimal work where they miss nearly one quarter of the room I was in

I was watching them

I would replace them with cleaning robots that can and will do a 100 percent cover the floor job

I’m with you on the contract cleaners, CN. I have seen some that were definitely slovenly. I actually reported one for entering my room without masking-up when I was neutropenic.

Geoff D said:

I’m with you on the contract cleaners, CN. I have seen some that were definitely slovenly. I actually reported one for entering my room without masking-up when I was neutropenic.

I can see your cost benefit point Geoff, but I am not an economic analyst

I think those small cleaning robots have a sparkling future

just for fun
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.pawnation.com/media/2013/03/toliet.gif

Japan Develops Fart-Filtering Underwear
http://www.underwearexpert.com/2012/11/fart-filtering-underwear-japan/

and yes, that as well

CrazyNeutrino said:

Japan Develops Fart-Filtering Underwear
http://www.underwearexpert.com/2012/11/fart-filtering-underwear-japan/

and yes, that as well

Not as good – we can diagnose melæna from a fart…

A largely out-of-control wildfire is sweeping through California’s Yosemite National Park and threatening thousands of homes and power lines that provide electricity to San Francisco.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-24/fast-moving-fire-rages-through-yosemite-national-park/4909950

shame they never built that fire fighting drone fleet I have always gone on about.

CrazyNeutrino said:

Think before you flush or brush
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1839

from the link

bacterial mist has also been shown to stay in the air for at least two hours

One of my friends from high school has made a habit of putting toilet seat lids down before she flushes. She started doing this about four years ago when she heard that when toilets are flushed, water droplets are expelled from the toilet bowl into the air, and when they land, other areas of the bathroom get “contaminated” by toilet water. That always amused me, but when I went over to her house, I humored her and followed this personal rule of hers. However, I didn’t know—and chances are, she didn’t know—just how justified she was in worrying about in what is known as the “aerosol effect” in toilets. My discovery that there is actually a technical term for this phenomenon was the first indication that there might be something scientifically legitimate to it. It seems to have first been brought to light by University of Arizona environmental microbiologist Charles Gerba when he published a scientific article in 1975 describing bacterial and viral aerosols due to toilet flushing (2). He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

I was told by someone who travelled to and fro from Gosford to Sydney to put the lid down on the train toilets by a doctor, the crap in the water was supposedly infecting people with hepatitis due to the toilet spray effect

CrazyNeutrino said:

Boris said:

He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

so what were the results and are they really disturbing?

Do some research Boris,

don’t correct him

the bed linen needs the anti-bacterial coating as well

what in the dust when bed lined is changed, skin flakes, what is also on skin flakes, bacteria

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Think before you flush or brush
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1839

from the link

bacterial mist has also been shown to stay in the air for at least two hours

One of my friends from high school has made a habit of putting toilet seat lids down before she flushes. She started doing this about four years ago when she heard that when toilets are flushed, water droplets are expelled from the toilet bowl into the air, and when they land, other areas of the bathroom get “contaminated” by toilet water. That always amused me, but when I went over to her house, I humored her and followed this personal rule of hers. However, I didn’t know—and chances are, she didn’t know—just how justified she was in worrying about in what is known as the “aerosol effect” in toilets. My discovery that there is actually a technical term for this phenomenon was the first indication that there might be something scientifically legitimate to it. It seems to have first been brought to light by University of Arizona environmental microbiologist Charles Gerba when he published a scientific article in 1975 describing bacterial and viral aerosols due to toilet flushing (2). He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

I was told by someone who travelled to and fro from Gosford to Sydney to put the lid down on the train toilets by a doctor, the crap in the water was supposedly infecting people with hepatitis due to the toilet spray effect

Bullshit

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC187159/

old news i’m afraid, here’s something from 1975

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC187159/

old news i’m afraid, here’s something from 1975

wookiemeister said:

CrazyNeutrino said:

Boris said:

He conducted tests by placing pieces of gauze in different locations around the bathroom and measuring the bacterial and viral levels on them after a toilet flush, and his results are more than just a little disturbing.

so what were the results and are they really disturbing?

Do some research Boris,

don’t correct him

Ive noticed

:)

Have you read the articles on toilet spray Dropbear

CrazyNeutrino said:

the bed linen needs the anti-bacterial coating as well

what in the dust when bed lined is changed, skin flakes, what is also on skin flakes, bacteria

How is the bed linen washed? Superheated steam.

the medical establishment generally believes they know and understand everything and reject anything that doesn’t fit into their model – they’ll end up killing you if you aren’t careful.

Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (July 1, 1818 – August 13, 1865) (born Ignác Fülöp Semmelweis) was a Hungarian physician of German extraction now known as an early pioneer of antiseptic procedures. Described as the “savior of mothers”, Semmelweis discovered that the incidence of puerperal fever could be drastically cut by the use of hand disinfection in obstetrical clinics. Puerperal fever was common in mid-19th-century hospitals and often fatal, with mortality at 10%–35%. Semmelweis proposed the practice of washing with chlorinated lime solutions in 1847 while working in Vienna General Hospital’s First Obstetrical Clinic, where doctors’ wards had three times the mortality of midwives’ wards. He published a book of his findings in Etiology, Concept and Prophylaxis of Childbed Fever.

Despite various publications of results where hand-washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis’s observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were REJECTED by the medical community. Some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and Semmelweis could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings. Semmelweis’s practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory and Joseph Lister, acting on the French microbiologist’s research, practiced and operated, using hygienic methods, with great success. In 1865, Semmelweis was committed to an asylum, where he died at age 47 after being beaten by the guards, only 14 days after he was committed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

if I think the toilet is a bit suspect i’ll put the lid down and flush and wait

normally you have this miasma of toilet spray hanging around inside the bowl for a while so you should wait for a while

the more suspect the toilet the more you should practice the old lid down trick. have a look at the great unwashed walking into the place.

I might throw some paper down the bowl before dropping an egg, it stops the splash back that more often than not will jump onto your date.

the best practice might be not flushing at all (unless you are left with a present by the last person)

throw the paper down and lay one

put the lid down flush and get out

Maternity institutions were set up all over Europe to address problems of infanticide of illegitimate children. They were set up as gratis institutions and offered to care for the infants, which made them attractive to underprivileged women, including prostitutes. In return for the free services, the women would be subjects for the training of doctors and midwives. There were two maternity clinics at the Viennese hospital. The First Clinic had an average maternal mortality rate due to puerperal fever of about 10% (actual rates fluctuated wildly). The Second Clinic’s rate was considerably lower, averaging less than 4%. This fact was known outside the hospital. The two clinics admitted on alternate days but women begged to be admitted to the Second Clinic, due to the bad reputation of the First Clinic.:69 Semmelweis described desperate women begging on their knees not to be admitted to the First Clinic.:70 Some women even preferred to give birth in the streets, pretending to have given sudden birth en route to the hospital (a practice known as street births), which meant they would still qualify for the child care benefits without having been admitted to the clinic. Semmelweis was puzzled that puerperal fever was rare among women giving street births. To me, it appeared logical that patients who experienced street births would become ill at least as frequently as those who delivered in the clinic. What protected those who delivered outside the clinic from these destructive unknown endemic influences?

Semmelweis was severely troubled that his First Clinic had a much higher mortality rate due to puerperal fever than the Second Clinic. It “made me so miserable that life seemed worthless”.:86 The two clinics used almost the same techniques, and Semmelweis started a meticulous process of eliminating all possible differences, including even religious practices. The only major difference was the individuals who worked there. The First Clinic was the teaching service for medical students, while the Second Clinic had been selected in 1841 for the instruction of midwives only.

anyway regardless our finest medical experts opinion

who would ever have suspected that having your face blasted with toilet water would ever make you sick?

Semmelweis was outraged by the indifference of the medical profession and began writing open and increasingly angry letters to prominent European obstetricians, at times denouncing them as irresponsible murderers. His contemporaries, including his wife, believed he was losing his mind, and in 1865 he was committed to an asylum. In an ironic twist of fate, he died there of septicaemia only 14 days later, possibly as the result of being severely beaten by guards. Semmelweis’s practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur developed the germ theory of disease, offering a theoretical explanation for Semmelweis’s findings. He is considered a pioneer of antiseptic procedures.

the moral of the story is that if you are a doctor and discover something that flies in the face of medical opinion SAY NOTHING and treat the condition with the new found and effective method without raising suspicions of your patients

The Semmelweis reflex or “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like tendency to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs or paradigms.

The term originated from the story of Ignaz Semmelweis, who discovered that childbed fever mortality rates reduced ten-fold when doctors washed their hands with a chlorine solution between patients. His hand-washing suggestions were rejected by his contemporaries, often for non-medical reasons. For instance, some doctors refused to believe that a gentleman’s hands could transmit disease (see Contemporary reaction to Ignaz Semmelweis).

While there is some uncertainty regarding the origin and generally accepted use of the expression, the use of the expression Semmelweis Reflex has been documented and at least used by the author Robert Anton Wilson. In his book The Game of Life, Timothy Leary provided the following polemical definition of the Semmelweis reflex: “Mob behavior found among primates and larval hominids on undeveloped planets, in which a discovery of important scientific fact is punished”. The expression has found way into philosophy and religious studies as “unmitigated Humean skepticism concerning causality”.

Why do you keeping posting stuff about Ignaz Semmelweis?
Do you think that those of us with an interest in the topic haven’t heard of him before?

PM 2Ring said:

Why do you keeping posting stuff about Ignaz Semmelweis?
Do you think that those of us with an interest in the topic haven’t heard of him before?

Of course not, teh wakster knows all you see, the rest of us don’t.

PM 2Ring said:

Why do you keeping posting stuff about Ignaz Semmelweis?
Do you think that those of us with an interest in the topic haven’t heard of him before?

just because you know doesn’t mean others will know

I was telling a medical student about him recently – he had never heard of him or the history of hand washing.

wookiemeister said:

I was telling a medical student about him recently – he had never heard of him or the history of hand washing.

Were you filling his prescription for apricot seeds?

wookiemeister said:

PM 2Ring said:

Why do you keeping posting stuff about Ignaz Semmelweis?
Do you think that those of us with an interest in the topic haven’t heard of him before?

just because you know doesn’t mean others will know

I was telling a medical student about him recently – he had never heard of him or the history of hand washing.

What on earth did Obsessive Compulsives do before Semmelweis? Not hand washing I presume.

wookiemeister said:

PM 2Ring said:

Why do you keeping posting stuff about Ignaz Semmelweis?
Do you think that those of us with an interest in the topic haven’t heard of him before?

just because you know doesn’t mean others will know

Sure. But why does that need so many posts about him? Surely a short extract and a link would be adequate.

Hospital lifts need to be voice controlled as well, this will eliminate a lot of finger contact

Dead horses should probably not be flogged either.

Dropbear said:

Dead horses should probably not be flogged either.

there goes my Mon-Fri activities!

I will revisit this topic in a few years, to see what developments have taken place.

morrie said:

wookiemeister said:

PM 2Ring said:

Why do you keeping posting stuff about Ignaz Semmelweis?
Do you think that those of us with an interest in the topic haven’t heard of him before?

just because you know doesn’t mean others will know

I was telling a medical student about him recently – he had never heard of him or the history of hand washing.

What on earth did Obsessive Compulsives do before Semmelweis? Not hand washing I presume.

they died

Boris said:

but what is so bad about making hospitals cleaner?

A lot actually – MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus Aureus) kills people in hospitals (and worse) precisely because ppl like you want to kill its natural enemies (other bacteria).

Why protect the elderly and weak from usually harmless bacteria at the expense of jeopardizing the young and otherwise healthy?

Same applies to households that try to kill everything on every surface – you’re setting your kids up for allergies and weak immune systems.

bourke said:

Same applies to households that try to kill everything on every surface – you’re setting your kids up for allergies and weak immune systems.

And Asthma.

bourke said:

Boris said:

but what is so bad about making hospitals cleaner?

A lot actually – MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus Aureus) kills people in hospitals (and worse) precisely because ppl like you want to kill its natural enemies (other bacteria).

Why protect the elderly and weak from usually harmless bacteria at the expense of jeopardizing the young and otherwise healthy?

CN actually said that.

:-)

Boris said:

bourke said:

Boris said:

but what is so bad about making hospitals cleaner?

A lot actually – MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus Aureus) kills people in hospitals (and worse) precisely because ppl like you want to kill its natural enemies (other bacteria).

Why protect the elderly and weak from usually harmless bacteria at the expense of jeopardizing the young and otherwise healthy?

CN actually said that.

:-)

H.G. Wells said it 120 years ago too… some ppl just take a while to really get it ;-)

Carmen_Sandiego said:

bourke said:

Same applies to households that try to kill everything on every surface – you’re setting your kids up for allergies and weak immune systems.

And Asthma.

be better to limit it to kitchens, toilets and bathrooms