I realise this is from a site that is dubiously recieved but the referenced Doctor seems reputable and the science, at least at a glance, seems creditable.

Dr. Mercola
Waking Times

I’ve previously interviewed Dr. Gerald Pollack, who is one of the leading premier research scientists in the world when it comes to understanding the physics of water, and what it means to your health.

Besides being a professor of bioengineering at the University of Washington, he’s also the founder and editor-in-chief of a scientific journal called Water, and has published many peer-reviewed scientific papers on this topic. He’s even received prestigious awards from the National Institutes of Health.

His book, The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid, and Vapor, is a phenomenal read that is easy to understand even for the non-professional.

It clearly explains the theory of the fourth phase of water, which is nothing short of ground-breaking. The fourth phase of water is, in a nutshell, living water. It’s referred to as EZ water—EZ standing for “exclusion zone”—which has a negative charge. This water can hold energy, much like a battery, and can deliver energy too.

more

No.

There are, however, many phases of ice.

OCDC said:

No.

There are, however, many phases of ice.

I take it you haven’t read the article

Joseph Mercola? Self promoting nutjob purveyor of dodgy stuff.

That raises the question: where does this negativity come from? Well, I think the negativity comes from the water, because the EZ water inside the cell has a negative charge. The same is true of the gel—the EZ water in the gel confers negativity. I think the cells are negatively charged because the water inside the cell is mainly EZ water and not neutral H2O.”

Again, no. And H3O2 is not water.

Maybe H3O2 is what powers Land Rovers…

Look, if Mercola’s pushing it, be assured that it is total crap.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

Beat The Ancestors

7.35pm – 8.30pm
SBS HD

Presenter Dick Strawbridge puts the team up against the might of the Roman Empire. They must build a Roman War Weapon. The Romans spent centuries perfecting their design of the Catapulta, an enormous bolt throwing siege engine; the team have just three days.

“Sectioned” is a US Army term, meaning “discharged under Section 8”. Like Klinger wanted to be.

Apologies and I return you to your scheduled program.

Don’t worry, it’s much more sensible than the OP.

Geoff D said:

“Sectioned” is a US Army term, meaning “discharged under Section 8”. Like Klinger wanted to be.

Why did I put that in here?

Which brings me to my earlier question. Why is my body trying to kill me.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

Joseph Mercola, “doctor” of osteopathy, is a popular guru of alternative medicine and a member of the right-wing quack outfit Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. He advocates and provides a forum for many classic crank medical ideas, such as vaccine hysteria and the belief that modern (sorry, “allopathic”) medicine kills more people than it helps. His website is a veritable spring of pseudoscience, quackery, and logical fallacies. He is a promoter of the idea of an AMA/Big Pharma/FDA conspiracy.

Despite his claim that unlike real other doctors, he is not interested in profit, he advertises all manner of unproven products, and has a health center that dispenses alternative medicine for a steep price.

OTOH, Gerald H. Pollack seems genuine. He has been investigating structure in liquid water, but it appears that Mercola has twisted Pollack’s findings to suit his purposes.

OK, that’s this therad stuffed.

PM 2Ring said:

OTOH, Gerald H. Pollack seems genuine.

OTOH, I just found:

Gerald Pollack, who doesn’t believe cells have plasma membranes, is a pretty good example— though AFAIK he doesn’t have a reputation for smearing other scientists. His self-published book Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life is controversial, to say the least.

I shall continue searching…

PM 2Ring said:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

Joseph Mercola, “doctor” of osteopathy, is a popular guru of alternative medicine and a member of the right-wing quack outfit Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. He advocates and provides a forum for many classic crank medical ideas, such as vaccine hysteria and the belief that modern (sorry, “allopathic”) medicine kills more people than it helps. His website is a veritable spring of pseudoscience, quackery, and logical fallacies. He is a promoter of the idea of an AMA/Big Pharma/FDA conspiracy.

Despite his claim that unlike real other doctors, he is not interested in profit, he advertises all manner of unproven products, and has a health center that dispenses alternative medicine for a steep price.

OTOH, Gerald H. Pollack seems genuine. He has been investigating structure in liquid water, but it appears that Mercola has twisted Pollack’s findings to suit his purposes.

could your view on this passage please PM?

“We found that if we put a simple tube, like a straw, made of hydrophilic material, in water… there’s water flow through the tube at high speed. This happens spontaneously. But it shouldn’t happen spontaneously. The common idea is that if you want to drive fluid through a pipe or tube, you need to apply pressure. But we have no pressure here. There’s no pressure difference between the input and output. But flow builds up spontaneously, and it keeps going.

Recently, we found that if we add light, the flow goes faster. It means that light has a particular effect; especially ultraviolet light, but other wavelengths as well. It speeds up the flow. We think that somehow the exclusion zones (EZs) are involved because inside those tubes, there’s a little annular ring of exclusion zone, and inside that is an area full of protons… It seems that the exclusion zone and the pressure of these protons are driving the flow.”

I only drink activated water

that was meant to include “give me” before ‘your view’

wookiemeister said:

I only drink activated water

has that got coffee in it?

the premise that EZ water is a transitional charged phase of water seems plausible to me

PM 2Ring said:

I shall continue searching…

Pollack may be controversial, but he doesn’t appear to be crank. However, I keep running into sites like this that mention him. Those guys sell devices that allegedly produce structured water for human consumption…

According to that site, these are the main benefits of structured water:

---

• Fresh tasting invigorating water
• Low surface tension, less than 46 dynes per cubic centimeter
• Greater density
• Wonderful showers & baths – no chlorine smell
• No more dry itchy skin
• No effects from sunburns
• Less soap necessary when washing
• Hair & skin rinses cleaner and feels better when washed
• Healthier plant growth – green lawns – lower freezing point
• Reduces chlorine requirements for spas & swimming pools
• Reduces corrosion & deposits in pipes
• Increases longevity of all systems that use water
• Reduces odors around water use facilities
• Improved growth of crops with increased biomass (27% to 40%)
• Lower freezing point so plants can be sustained at lower temperatures
• Removes existing calcium and aragonite deposits
• Solvency of the water increases profits from sales of coffee & juice
• Healthier gardens & household plants
• Healthier farm livestock, domestic pets & fish
• Structured water increases minerals, medications or any other supplement absorption to 100 percent
• Eliminates polluting salts, chemicals or corrosive byproducts
• Improved aerobic bacterial activity in septic & sewage systems
• Structured water is loaded with negative hydrogen ions ie. “Hydrogen is the fuel of life.”
• Assists in the release of healthful vitamins & minerals to all life
• Structured water contributes to the solution & well being of all
• Structured water is the ultimate food
• Structured water is the Greatest medicine
• High in Hydrogen
• High in Oxygen
• Anti aging health benefits
• Biologically free – in nature always has good bacteria
• Ion free
• Memory free – unless programmed
• Structured water reduces the energy required for hydration
• Structured water is the most economical fuel & energy source
• Plus, plus, plus the list goes on…
  

  ---

I’m glad that it’s high in hydrogen & oxygen. :)

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Looks like the nutjobs have taken some interesting and slightly puzzling observations, and run off in all directions with it.

Geez, we’d be f’ked if water wasn’t high in hydrogen and oxygen. It would be something else entirely.

Geoff D said:

Looks like the nutjobs have taken some interesting and slightly puzzling observations, and run off in all directions with it.

Geez, we’d be f’ked if water wasn’t high in hydrogen and oxygen. It would be something else entirely.

I thought they were just saying that energy can be capillarised in various ways

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Looks like the nutjobs have taken some interesting and slightly puzzling observations, and run off in all directions with it.

Geez, we’d be f’ked if water wasn’t high in hydrogen and oxygen. It would be something else entirely.

I thought they were just saying that energy can be capillarised in various ways

Capillary action will end at the exposed end of the tube. If there’s something happening in their submerged hydrophobic straw, then what supplies the directionality? If whatever happens is a property of the straw and the water, then it should end at the end of the tube and therefore no flow can occur. I think there is something not being said somewhere.

the article does make me ask what systems biology can use as a dynamo?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

the article does make me ask what systems biology can use as a dynamo?

Electrolytes are everywhere.

ROFL@credible article by Mercola.

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

the article does make me ask what systems biology can use as a dynamo?

Electrolytes are everywhere.

Just reverse the direction of ATP synthase.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

OCDC said:

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

the article does make me ask what systems biology can use as a dynamo?

Electrolytes are everywhere.

Just reverse the direction of ATP synthase.

curiously, gentamicin stops ATP synthase running in reverse, in vitro.

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Looks like the nutjobs have taken some interesting and slightly puzzling observations, and run off in all directions with it.

Geez, we’d be f’ked if water wasn’t high in hydrogen and oxygen. It would be something else entirely.

I thought they were just saying that energy can be capillarised in various ways

Capillary action will end at the exposed end of the tube. If there’s something happening in their submerged hydrophobic straw, then what supplies the directionality? If whatever happens is a property of the straw and the water, then it should end at the end of the tube and therefore no flow can occur. I think there is something not being said somewhere.

I didn’t take that experiment into account especially when considering their presentation of energy capillarisation. With EM and kinetic involvement there seems room for phase dynamics.

poikilotherm said:

OCDC said:

Geoff D said:

Electrolytes are everywhere.

Just reverse the direction of ATP synthase.

curiously, gentamicin stops ATP synthase running in reverse, in vitro.

Cool :-)

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

can H2O be starved of oxygen?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

can H2O be starved of oxygen?

Sure, and then it isn’t water anymore.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

can H2O be starved of oxygen?

Only dissolved oxygen. And all the splashing in a swimming pool should keep that concentration up.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

can H2O be starved of oxygen?

Yes, but we are talking dissolved O2, not the o part of h2o.

OCDC said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

can H2O be starved of oxygen?

Sure, and then it isn’t water anymore.

I’m not sure de-oxygenated is what I meant. Can the oxygen atoms in H20 be depleted of charge in some way so that it is still technically water but of a different density?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I didn’t take that experiment into account especially when considering their presentation of energy capillarisation. With EM and kinetic involvement there seems room for phase dynamics.

My brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from that. Sorry.

I’m not sure de-oxygenated is what I meant. Can the oxygen atoms in H20 be depleted of charge in some way so that it is still technically water but of a different density?

No. Each water molecule (H2O) overall is electrically neutral. Changing to H3O+ and OH- doesn’t affect that.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

Sorry, my brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from this.

can H2O be starved of oxygen?

dissolved oxygen yes

getting rid of it allows oil to mix into the water

Riff-in-Thyme said:

could [you give] your view on this passage please PM?

“We found that if we put a simple tube, like a straw, made of hydrophilic material, in water… there’s water flow through the tube at high speed. This happens spontaneously. But it shouldn’t happen spontaneously. The common idea is that if you want to drive fluid through a pipe or tube, you need to apply pressure. But we have no pressure here. There’s no pressure difference between the input and output. But flow builds up spontaneously, and it keeps going.

Recently, we found that if we add light, the flow goes faster. It means that light has a particular effect; especially ultraviolet light, but other wavelengths as well. It speeds up the flow. We think that somehow the exclusion zones (EZs) are involved because inside those tubes, there’s a little annular ring of exclusion zone, and inside that is an area full of protons… It seems that the exclusion zone and the pressure of these protons are driving the flow.”

That seems rather odd. As Pollack said, it shouldn’t happen spontaneously, and the flow shouldn’t just keep going. That sort of thing requires energy from somewhere, otherwise it’s breaking the well-established laws of thermodynamics.

I assume that Pollack is claiming that the energy is coming from the potential energy held in those structures he’s talking about. So eventually the flow should stop, unless the water is somehow rebuilding these structures using the energy from the light he’s illuminating it with.

If so, this is very interesting, but please forgive me if I’m a little skeptical at this stage.

wookiemeister said:

dissolved oxygen yes

getting rid of it allows oil to mix into the water

No.

OCDC said:

wookiemeister said:

dissolved oxygen yes

getting rid of it allows oil to mix into the water

No.

are you sure about that?

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I didn’t take that experiment into account especially when considering their presentation of energy capillarisation. With EM and kinetic involvement there seems room for phase dynamics.

My brain cannot extract anything comprehensible from that. Sorry.

I’m trying ask the right questions so that I can articulate what I drew from that article in comparison to a couple of things I’ve noticed like the suffocating feeling of the water in that crowded pool. You don’t need to apologise. I appreciate my questions being entertained.

OCDC said:

wookiemeister said:

dissolved oxygen yes

getting rid of it allows oil to mix into the water

No.

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 which is almost infinite…

wookiemeister said:

OCDC said:

wookiemeister said:

dissolved oxygen yes

getting rid of it allows oil to mix into the water

No.

are you sure about that?

Yes.

Dissolved gases do not affect the hydrophobic nature of lipids. Try pouring oil on coke then let it sit – it’ll separate.

OCDC said:

Changing to H3O+ and OH- doesn’t affect that.

I technically don’t understand the relationship there.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Geoff D said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I thought they were just saying that energy can be capillarised in various ways

Capillary action will end at the exposed end of the tube. If there’s something happening in their submerged hydrophobic straw, then what supplies the directionality? If whatever happens is a property of the straw and the water, then it should end at the end of the tube and therefore no flow can occur. I think there is something not being said somewhere.

I didn’t take that experiment into account especially when considering their presentation of energy capillarisation. With EM and kinetic involvement there seems room for phase dynamics.

What Geoff said.

Riff-in-Thyme,
What do “energy can be capillarised” and “energy capillarisation” mean?

OCDC said:

wookiemeister said:

OCDC said:

No.

are you sure about that?

Yes.

Dissolved gases do not affect the hydrophobic nature of lipids. Try pouring oil on coke then let it sit – it’ll separate.

I remember hearing something about this around a year ago

some uni did tests and found that removing dissolved oxygen from water allowed oil to mix with water

amazingly enough

its one of those things that came and went

PM 2Ring said:

If so, this is very interesting, but please forgive me if I’m a little skeptical at this stage.

Sure thing. I’ve always been impressed with how stable the neutrality of water is. It seems to at least make intuitive sense to me that this stability might rely on having some sort of elastic way of dealing with charge.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

People shed various things into water, including dirt, dead skin cells, and various oils from their hair and skin. If you have a lot of people in the water, then you can notice the oil content.

It is demonstrated that de-gassed water is more effective at dispersing hydrophobic “dirt”, such as liquid
hydrocarbons or oils.
http://web.mit.edu/ruddman/Public/Thermodynamics/degassed%20water.pdf

this is from MIT so i’m not sure this will be good enough will the learned people here

this is from 2005 so its kind of “old” and not fresh info

the info I heard seems to have recycled this study

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

People shed various things into water, including dirt, dead skin cells, and various oils from their hair and skin. If you have a lot of people in the water, then you can notice the oil content.

What about urine, lot and lots of urine.

Stealth said:

What about urine, lot and lots of urine.

should’ve bet you’d post that

wookiemeister said:

It is demonstrated that de-gassed water is more effective at dispersing hydrophobic “dirt”, such as liquid
hydrocarbons or oils.
http://web.mit.edu/ruddman/Public/Thermodynamics/degassed%20water.pdf

this is from MIT so i’m not sure this will be good enough will the learned people here

this is from 2005 so its kind of “old” and not fresh info

the info I heard seems to have recycled this study

hang on I’ve assumed MIT because of the address, I’ve looked at the thing again and it says

R. M. Pashley,*,† M. Rzechowicz,† L. R. Pashley,‡ and M. J. Francis†
Department of Chemistry, The Faculties, and Department of Applied Mathematics,
The Australian National UniVersity, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia
ReceiVed: September 7, 2004; In Final Form: NoVember 4, 2004

so you could ring these people up and argue with them

wookiemeister said:

It is demonstrated that de-gassed water is more effective at dispersing hydrophobic “dirt”, such as liquid
hydrocarbons or oils.
http://web.mit.edu/ruddman/Public/Thermodynamics/degassed%20water.pdf

this is from MIT so i’m not sure this will be good enough will the learned people here

this is from 2005 so its kind of “old” and not fresh info

the info I heard seems to have recycled this study

hang on I’ve assumed MIT because of the address, I’ve looked at the thing again and it says

R. M. Pashley,*,† M. Rzechowicz,† L. R. Pashley,‡ and M. J. Francis†
Department of Chemistry, The Faculties, and Department of Applied Mathematics,
The Australian National UniVersity, Canberra, ACT 0200, Australia
ReceiVed: September 7, 2004; In Final Form: NoVember 4, 2004

so you could ring these people up and argue with them

10 Different Types of Water
http://www.herballegacy.com/August_22_2007.html

any other types left out?

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

People shed various things into water, including dirt, dead skin cells, and various oils from their hair and skin. If you have a lot of people in the water, then you can notice the oil content.

possible. I’ll try and provide a better explanation of energy capillarisation but what I mentioned about H20 neutrality in the last post is the best I’ve pulled together so far

It’d be more useful if you actually read the article properly first but, eh.

poikilotherm said:

It’d be more useful if you actually read the article properly first but, eh.

to whom are you refering?

poikilotherm said:

It’d be more useful if you actually read the article properly first but, eh.

sour grapes

it was the first thing I found

YOU could find out that I was RIGHT all along by following the breadcrumbs

OCDC said:

I’m not sure de-oxygenated is what I meant. Can the oxygen atoms in H20 be depleted of charge in some way so that it is still technically water but of a different density?

No. Each water molecule (H2O) overall is electrically neutral. Changing to H3O+ and OH- doesn’t affect that.

What she said.

However,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium

The hydronium cation is the positively charged polyatomic ion with the chemical formula H3O+. Hydronium, a type of oxonium ion, is formed by the protonation of water (H2O). This cation is often used to represent the nature of the proton in aqueous solution, where the proton is highly solvated (bound to a solvent).

The reality is far more complicated, and a proton is bound to several molecules of water, such that other descriptions such as H5O2+, H7O3+ and H9O4+ are increasingly accurate descriptions of the environment of a proton in water.

OCDC did the sensible thing and buggered off before being wookied

I don’t believe in the existence of water.

wookiemeister said:

OCDC did the sensible thing and buggered off before being wookied

OCDC deals with a lot of stupid, my tolerance is higher for teh stoopert wakster.

It is demonstrated that de-gassed water is more effective at dispersing hydrophobic “dirt”, such as liquid
hydrocarbons or oils. This effect appears to be due to the reduction of natural cavitation, which would otherwise
oppose the dispersion of hydrophobic liquid droplets into water. De-gassing of the oil enhances this effect
still further, and this has led to a proposal for a novel cleaning process, based on using a combination of a
de-gassed (hydrophobic) solvent followed by rinsing in de-gassed water. This method might be useful as an
effective, detergent-free cleaning process. Also reported are some initial studies which suggest that the effect
of “inert” dissolved gases on the electrical conductivity of water may need to be reconsidered.
http://web.mit.edu/ruddman/Public/Thermodynamics/degassed%20water.pdf

party_pants said:

I don’t believe in the existence of water.

Water is real and it is relatively benign. But watch out for that DHMO chemical, it kill ya…

PM 2Ring said:

However,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium

The hydronium cation is the positively charged polyatomic ion with the chemical formula H3O+. Hydronium, a type of oxonium ion, is formed by the protonation of water (H2O). This cation is often used to represent the nature of the proton in aqueous solution, where the proton is highly solvated (bound to a solvent).

The reality is far more complicated, and a proton is bound to several molecules of water, such that other descriptions such as H5O2+, H7O3+ and H9O4+ are increasingly accurate descriptions of the environment of a proton in water.

I think I follow that ok. I think that capillarisation could be compared to static charge accumulation but not as a surface thing I guess?

trololol, even got a cutnpaste with that.

poikilotherm said:

trololol, even got a cutnpaste with that.

don’t feel bad about it poilkie everyone gets wookied at some point

take a pill and go and lie down

Stealth said:

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

People shed various things into water, including dirt, dead skin cells, and various oils from their hair and skin. If you have a lot of people in the water, then you can notice the oil content.

What about urine, lot and lots of urine.

Well, some at least. And various salts from sweat. But I reckon the oils (and possibly short proteins) are the major factor in changing the feel of the water.

wookiemeister said:

poikilotherm said:

trololol, even got a cutnpaste with that.

don’t feel bad about it poilkie everyone gets wookied at some point

take a pill and go and lie down

dear oh dear.

PM 2Ring said:

Stealth said:

PM 2Ring said:

People shed various things into water, including dirt, dead skin cells, and various oils from their hair and skin. If you have a lot of people in the water, then you can notice the oil content.

What about urine, lot and lots of urine.

Well, some at least. And various salts from sweat. But I reckon the oils (and possibly short proteins) are the major factor in changing the feel of the water.

Could have been imagination but I thought it felt more EM. Like there was more infrared in the water or something.

poikilotherm said:

wookiemeister said:

poikilotherm said:

trololol, even got a cutnpaste with that.

don’t feel bad about it poilkie everyone gets wookied at some point

take a pill and go and lie down

dear oh dear.

I love the sitcom that evolves around these threads. Like some sort of script proving for Big Bang Theory :P

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Could have been imagination but I thought it felt more EM. Like there was more infrared in the water or something.

It must be good to know what water with more infrared in it feels like.

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.

People shed various things into water, including dirt, dead skin cells, and various oils from their hair and skin. If you have a lot of people in the water, then you can notice the oil content.

I see shed people

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Could have been imagination but I thought it felt more EM. Like there was more infrared in the water or something.

It must be good to know what water with more infrared in it feels like.

You’ve never been put in a microwave? Missing out

Riff-in-Thyme said:

poikilotherm said:

wookiemeister said:

don’t feel bad about it poilkie everyone gets wookied at some point

take a pill and go and lie down

dear oh dear.

I love the sitcom that evolves around these threads. Like some sort of script proving for Big Bang Theory :P

I see it more like a spock and kirk scenario in a fighting ring to the death just when you think its all over wookiemeister flies into the fray scattering them like cats to lick their wounds in the darkness, the darkness that can hide the eyes of the world from the hot tears and wounded pride. oh he’ll pay, mark my words he’ll pay just not today.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

poikilotherm said:

wookiemeister said:

don’t feel bad about it poilkie everyone gets wookied at some point

take a pill and go and lie down

dear oh dear.

I love the sitcom that evolves around these threads. Like some sort of script proving for Big Bang Theory :P

boris doesn’t like me as well so its more of a club meeting going on at the moment

>>I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.”

I get a similar feeling when I think of all the genitals and anuses getting a wash, you know and you get a mouthful by accident.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I’ve always been impressed with how stable the neutrality of water is. It seems to at least make intuitive sense to me that this stability might rely on having some sort of elastic way of dealing with charge.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

OCDC said:

Changing to H3O+ and OH- doesn’t affect that.

I technically don’t understand the relationship there.

The neutrality of water is not actually stable it’s dynamic: neutral water molecules are continually breaking up into charged pieces (ions) and re-forming all the time, according to the equation:

H₂O ⇌ H₃O⁺ and OH^-

At any given moment, approximately 1 water molecule in 10⁷ is split into ions, assuming the water is pure and around room temperature. In other words, the concentration of the positive and negative ions are both ~ 10^-7 in neutral water.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH for further details.

transition said:

>>I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.”

I get a similar feeling when I think of all the genitals and anuses getting a wash, you know and you get a mouthful by accident.

i’m not sure i’m paranoid enough to transfer mental discomfort to physical sensation

thanks for that PM. should help me tease this thought out

The Rev Dodgson said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Could have been imagination but I thought it felt more EM. Like there was more infrared in the water or something.

It must be good to know what water with more infrared in it feels like.

It generally feels warmer. :)

transition said:

>>I’ve noticed in a public swimming pool that when there was an excess of people in the water the it began to feel stifling but not from being warm(though it wasn’t cold). I assumed the water was being de-oxygenated through some sort of capillary action but that was just a basic guess at what was going on.”

I get a similar feeling when I think of all the genitals and anuses getting a wash, you know and you get a mouthful by accident.

ohhh fruity

>>i’m not sure i’m paranoid enough to transfer mental discomfort to physical sensation

Depends which way you think emotions etc work.

transition said:

>>i’m not sure i’m paranoid enough to transfer mental discomfort to physical sensation

Depends which way you think emotions etc work.

now your just confusing my assessment of the term capillarisation :(

Riff-in-Thyme said:

transition said:

>>i’m not sure i’m paranoid enough to transfer mental discomfort to physical sensation

Depends which way you think emotions etc work.

now your just confusing my assessment of the term capillarisation :(

I see funnels :( chuckle

http://www.ebnerandsons.com/

Interesting thread and topic anyway. Of course there will be some loons that take it into weird ‘science’.

PM 2Ring said:

OCDC said:

Changing to H3O+ and OH- doesn’t affect that.

I technically don’t understand the relationship there.

The neutrality of water is not actually stable it’s dynamic: neutral water molecules are continually breaking up into charged pieces (ions) and re-forming all the time, according to the equation:

H₂O ⇌ H₃O⁺ and OH^-

At any given moment, approximately 1 water molecule in 10⁷ is split into ions, assuming the water is pure and around room temperature. In other words, the concentration of the positive and negative ions are both ~ 10^-7 in neutral water.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH for further details.

In a large body of water would these transitions reflect the turbulence in the water?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

In a large body of water would these transitions reflect the turbulence in the water?

And seeing as radiation fluctuates, could sunlight on a body of water be considered turbulence?

sunshine on the water looks so lovely

PM 2Ring said:

The neutrality of water is not actually stable it’s dynamic: neutral water molecules are continually breaking up into charged pieces (ions) and re-forming all the time, according to the equation:

H₂O ⇌ H₃O⁺ and OH^-

At any given moment, approximately 1 water molecule in 10⁷ is split into ions, assuming the water is pure and around room temperature. In other words, the concentration of the positive and negative ions are both ~ 10^-7 in neutral water.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH for further details.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

In a large body of water would these transitions reflect the turbulence in the water?

Not really. The self-ionisation of water is happening at the molecular scale and is virtually unaffected by large scale motion. It is affected by temperature, though, since temperature is also a molecular scale thing. And water ionisation is certainly affected by pH.

So turbulence & mixing can have an indirect effect on water ionisation, if the turbulent activity changes the amount of CO₂ (or other non-neutral gases) dissolved in the water, or changes its temperature.

PM 2Ring said:

Not really. The self-ionisation of water is happening at the molecular scale and is virtually unaffected by large scale motion. It is affected by temperature, though, since temperature is also a molecular scale thing. And water ionisation is certainly affected by pH.

So turbulence & mixing can have an indirect effect on water ionisation, if the turbulent activity changes the amount of CO₂ (or other non-neutral gases) dissolved in the water, or changes its temperature.

so wave action wouldn’t exert any regulation on transitions?

Not really.

PM 2Ring said:

Not really.

but wave absorption is relative to density?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

PM 2Ring said:

Not really.

but wave absorption is relative to density?

or do i mean dissipation?

fuckola

I assume all of the good jokes about this have already been done.

dv said:

I assume all of the good jokes about this have already been done.

I haven’t been dazzled yet

Duh!. The pool thing has got to be excessive carbon-dioxide. Sorry to throw a red herring in

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Duh!. The pool thing has got to be excessive carbon-dioxide. Sorry to throw a red herring in

At least it was related by the PH connection

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Duh!. The pool thing has got to be excessive carbon-dioxide. Sorry to throw a red herring in

At least it was related by the PH connection

And suggesting their is a different IR content in carbon dioxide isn’t ridiculous

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Duh!. The pool thing has got to be excessive carbon-dioxide. Sorry to throw a red herring in

I think it’s a red herring.

Yes, a crowded pool will pick up some extra CO₂, but I doubt that it’d be enough to make a difference to the feel of the water.

A little of the CO₂ exhaled by the people in the water will dissolve into the water, but most of it will disperse into the surrounding air before it gets a chance to dissolve. I suppose the water will pick up a significant percentage of the CO₂ that’s exhaled underwater, though, but I suspect that the total will still be insignificant.

We’d need to see actual figures to be sure. And we’d also need figures (from a double blind test) for how high the CO₂ level of water has to be before it has a noticeable effect on the water’s feel.

PM 2Ring said:

We’d need to see actual figures to be sure. And we’d also need figures (from a double blind test) for how high the CO₂ level of water has to be before it has a noticeable effect on the water’s feel.

Have we established that any achievable level of CO2 in water at room temperature will affect the “feel”?

The Rev Dodgson said:

PM 2Ring said:

We’d need to see actual figures to be sure. And we’d also need figures (from a double blind test) for how high the CO₂ level of water has to be before it has a noticeable effect on the water’s feel.

Have we established that any achievable level of CO2 in water at room temperature will affect the “feel”?

No, but it’s not a totally unreasonable hypothesis.

I’m pretty sure that I can feel the difference between tap water and filtered water at the same temperature. But I haven’t done a double blind test to find out if I’m just imagining things.

PM 2Ring said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

PM 2Ring said:

We’d need to see actual figures to be sure. And we’d also need figures (from a double blind test) for how high the CO₂ level of water has to be before it has a noticeable effect on the water’s feel.

Have we established that any achievable level of CO2 in water at room temperature will affect the “feel”?

No, but it’s not a totally unreasonable hypothesis.

I’m pretty sure that I can feel the difference between tap water and filtered water at the same temperature. But I haven’t done a double blind test to find out if I’m just imagining things.

I’ve dunked a pH tester in filtered water, it makes it acidic

hmmmm. food for thought. cheers

Riff-in-Thyme said:

And suggesting their is a different IR content in carbon dioxide isn’t ridiculous

If it were carbon dioxide gas, I’d agree. But dissolved CO₂ is another story.

However, pure water has a very high specific heat. IOW, the amount of energy (in the form of heat) required to raise its temperature by a given number of degrees is quite high compared to many other materials. And impure water tends to have a lower specific heat than pure water, so when you dissolve almost anything into pure water it needs less heat input to raise its temperature by a given amount.

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

And suggesting their is a different IR content in carbon dioxide isn’t ridiculous

If it were carbon dioxide gas, I’d agree. But dissolved CO₂ is another story.

However, pure water has a very high specific heat. IOW, the amount of energy (in the form of heat) required to raise its temperature by a given number of degrees is quite high compared to many other materials. And impure water tends to have a lower specific heat than pure water, so when you dissolve almost anything into pure water it needs less heat input to raise its temperature by a given amount.

That definitely lines up with the observation

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

And suggesting their is a different IR content in carbon dioxide isn’t ridiculous

If it were carbon dioxide gas, I’d agree. But dissolved CO₂ is another story.

However, pure water has a very high specific heat. IOW, the amount of energy (in the form of heat) required to raise its temperature by a given number of degrees is quite high compared to many other materials. And impure water tends to have a lower specific heat than pure water, so when you dissolve almost anything into pure water it needs less heat input to raise its temperature by a given amount.

So the chlorine in the pool would have been enough for the water to absorb the body heat quicker?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

And suggesting their is a different IR content in carbon dioxide isn’t ridiculous

If it were carbon dioxide gas, I’d agree. But dissolved CO₂ is another story.

However, pure water has a very high specific heat. IOW, the amount of energy (in the form of heat) required to raise its temperature by a given number of degrees is quite high compared to many other materials. And impure water tends to have a lower specific heat than pure water, so when you dissolve almost anything into pure water it needs less heat input to raise its temperature by a given amount.

So the chlorine in the pool would have been enough for the water to absorb the body heat quicker?

I guess warming chlorine would activate more also?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

PM 2Ring said:

If it were carbon dioxide gas, I’d agree. But dissolved CO₂ is another story.

However, pure water has a very high specific heat. IOW, the amount of energy (in the form of heat) required to raise its temperature by a given number of degrees is quite high compared to many other materials. And impure water tends to have a lower specific heat than pure water, so when you dissolve almost anything into pure water it needs less heat input to raise its temperature by a given amount.

So the chlorine in the pool would have been enough for the water to absorb the body heat quicker?

Probably. The CO₂ may have enhanced the effect, though. However, CO₂ solubility is quite sensitive to pH. So the chlorine may have a tendency to drive the CO₂ out, since Cl is much more water soluble than CO₂ and tends to have a greater affect on reducing the water’s pH. But to be honest, I don’t know what happens when you try to dissolve both Cl and CO₂ in water.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I guess warming chlorine would activate more also?

Probably not. In contrast to the behaviour of most solids, gas solubility reduces as you raise the temperature of the solvent.

I just had a quick look at the link in the OP. It says several times that the body consists of 99% water molecules.

Wiki tells me it’s between 50% and 75% depending on various factors.

Wiki tells me it’s between 50% and 75% depending on various factors.

yeah, some people are wetter than others.

pommiejohn said:

I just had a quick look at the link in the OP. It says several times that the body consists of 99% water molecules.

Wiki tells me it’s between 50% and 75% depending on various factors.

I didn’t really read what Mercola had to say. Just Dr Pollack’s quotes

Boris said:

Wiki tells me it’s between 50% and 75% depending on various factors.

yeah, some people are wetter than others.

You really do leave a fair space between your bat and pad sometime, Boris. You’re just lucky that I’m not the sort of cove who would take advantage.

pommiejohn said:

I just had a quick look at the link in the OP. It says several times that the body consists of 99% water molecules.

Wiki tells me it’s between 50% and 75% depending on various factors.

Yeah, Mercola is a loonie. But Pollack seems legit, if controversial. The problem is that loonies like Mercola think that Pollack’s findings support their whacky beliefs.

i was always more of a bowler than batsman.

i was always more of a bowler than batsman.

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I didn’t really read what Mercola had to say. Just Dr Pollack’s quotes

Then your OP should’ve quoted from and linked to Pollack’s site, rather than Mercola’s. Citing woo-woo sites is not good for one’s credibility on a (de facto) science forum.

PM 2Ring said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I didn’t really read what Mercola had to say. Just Dr Pollack’s quotes

Then your OP should’ve quoted from and linked to Pollack’s site, rather than Mercola’s. Citing woo-woo sites is not good for one’s credibility on a (de facto) science forum.

I didn’t think to go to his site but I will now

youtube link

Pollack Laboratory

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Pollack Laboratory

FWIW, I did post a link to Pollack’s site in my first post in this thread…

I forgot to look at it till now. I’ve had more than one thing on my mind :/

I’m no expert but what is needed for the basic test he refers to isn’t too difficult to sort out is it?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

I forgot to look at it till now. I’ve had more than one thing on my mind :/

Fair enough.

OCDC said:

Again, no. And H3O2 is not water.

pfft, semantics. Typical response of those who use rational thought and god forbid, science!

Can the oxygen atoms in H20 be depleted of charge in some way so that it is still technically water but of a different density?
———————-
Well you could use 17O or 18O, but changing the Hydrogen to Deuterium would be the easiest way of changing the density. I guess you could go for (3H)2(18O), but I don’t know if you would want to swim it.

While accelerating the polymerisation of the casting resin I am using with a heat gun it occurred to me this EZ water seemed to fit into a similar bracket as polymerisation when compared to the well known but minimally understood water bridge phenomena. Does infrared radiation facilitate a chain forming mode in water at near freezing temperatures?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

While accelerating the polymerisation of the casting resin I am using with a heat gun it occurred to me this EZ water seemed to fit into a similar bracket as polymerisation when compared to the well known but minimally understood water bridge phenomena. Does infrared radiation facilitate a chain forming mode in water at near freezing temperatures?

If the freezing point of oxygen is -218.8C and hydrogen -259.1, what is the stasis achieved at 0C?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

While accelerating the polymerisation of the casting resin I am using with a heat gun it occurred to me this EZ water seemed to fit into a similar bracket as polymerisation when compared to the well known but minimally understood water bridge phenomena. Does infrared radiation facilitate a chain forming mode in water at near freezing temperatures?

If the freezing point of oxygen is -218.8C and hydrogen -259.1, what is the stasis achieved at 0C in H2O?

what prompted the resurrection of this thread?