Is it only the woo factor that like to seek answers from the golden ratio when it comes to things like developing sustainable energy and the like(what is it’s history)?
Is the GR used in engineering?
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Is it only the woo factor that like to seek answers from the golden ratio when it comes to things like developing sustainable energy and the like(what is it’s history)?Is the GR used in engineering?
Right now I can’t recall seeing it used anywhere, even as a woo element.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Is it only the woo factor that like to seek answers from the golden ratio when it comes to things like developing sustainable energy and the like(what is it’s history)?Is the GR used in engineering?
Right now I can’t recall seeing it used anywhere, even as a woo element.
There was a guy I posted some links on who used it with his theory of everything or whatever it was.It has been a while so the details aren’t with me
This link:
http://www.teachengineering.org/view_activity.php?url=collection/nyu_/activities/nyu_phi/nyu_phi_activity1.xml
suggests a engineering connection (but looks pretty wooish to me).
The trouble is, ancient buildings provide excellent opportunities for the application of confirmation bias.
I think if anywhere it’s really only used in a design capacity…
that is in an aesthetic design scene as opposed to an input into true engineering structural design.
diddly-squat said:
I think if anywhere it’s really only used in a design capacity…
that is in an aesthetic design scene as opposed to an input into true engineering structural design.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
diddly-squat said:I think if anywhere it’s really only used in a design capacity…
that is in an aesthetic design scene as opposed to an input into true engineering structural design.
““Marko Rodin has discovered the source of the non-decaying spin of the electron. Although scientists know that all electrons in the universe spin they have never discovered the source of this spin. Rodin has. He has discovered the underpinning geometry of the universe, the fabric of time itself. He has done this by reducing all higher mathematics – calculus, geometry, scalar math – to discrete-number mathematics. “With the introduction of Vortex-Based Mathematics you will be able to see how energy is expressing itself mathematically. This math has no anomalies and shows the dimensional shape and function of the universe as being a toroid or donut-shaped black hole. This is the template for the universe and it is all within our base ten decimal system!” “
What do you think?
Tinfoil Protection Factor: 8.5
Woo level: Very High
The Rev Dodgson said:
What do you think?
I think this looks really cool.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
The Rev Dodgson said:What do you think?
I think this looks really cool.
…like I said… aesthetic design
diddly-squat said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
The Rev Dodgson said:What do you think?
I think this looks really cool.
…like I said… aesthetic design
It might seem likely to a layman that energy momentum could have a toroidal nature. Has this been specifically disproven in research?
Riff-in-Thyme said:
diddly-squat said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:I think this looks really cool.
…like I said… aesthetic design
It might seem likely to a layman that energy momentum could have a toroidal nature. Has this been specifically disproven in research?
Riff-in-Thyme said:
It might seem likely to a layman that energy momentum could have a toroidal nature. Has this been specifically disproven in research?
Explain what it means and I’ll give it some thought.
For a proposition to be disproven it needs to first be expressed in a meaningful way. As the statement goes, jibberish like this is “not even wrong”.
MartinB said:
For a proposition to be disproven it needs to first be expressed in a meaningful way. As the statement goes, jibberish like this is “not even wrong”.
As accurate as that may be, it does not answer the question of how much has the golden ratio been examined in terms of energy momentum. Have there been any proposals that have been studied?
fluid dynamics would seem an obvious area to have looked at it?
Riff-in-Thyme said:
MartinB said:
For a proposition to be disproven it needs to first be expressed in a meaningful way. As the statement goes, jibberish like this is “not even wrong”.
As accurate as that may be, it does not answer the question of how much has the golden ratio been examined in terms of energy momentum. Have there been any proposals that have been studied?
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
MartinB said:
For a proposition to be disproven it needs to first be expressed in a meaningful way. As the statement goes, jibberish like this is “not even wrong”.
As accurate as that may be, it does not answer the question of how much has the golden ratio been examined in terms of energy momentum. Have there been any proposals that have been studied?
It might help if you could define energy momentum.
I thought that was the job of real physicists??
Riff-in-Thyme said:
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:As accurate as that may be, it does not answer the question of how much has the golden ratio been examined in terms of energy momentum. Have there been any proposals that have been studied?
It might help if you could define energy momentum.I thought that was the job of real physicists??
No, explaining what you mean by a question is your job.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:As accurate as that may be, it does not answer the question of how much has the golden ratio been examined in terms of energy momentum. Have there been any proposals that have been studied?
It might help if you could define energy momentum.I thought that was the job of real physicists??
Google doesn’t have much to say on energy momentum.
Except this:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
morrie said:It might help if you could define energy momentum.
I thought that was the job of real physicists??
No, explaining what you mean by a question is your job.
I’ve asked a very general question about whether there has been any studies that have looked at the golden ratio outside of geometrical inclusion in the growth of plants. How many times and how many would ways should I restate this?
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
morrie said:It might help if you could define energy momentum.
I thought that was the job of real physicists??
Is it?Google doesn’t have much to say on energy momentum.
Except this:
I did not believe I had invented the term but I guess I’ll have to check my dictionary.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:I thought that was the job of real physicists??
Is it?Google doesn’t have much to say on energy momentum.
Except this:
I did not believe I had invented the term but I guess I’ll have to check my dictionary.
In general relativity there is an equation that relates energy and momentum. But as far as I can gather ‘energy-momentum’ isn’t a specific name given to any particular property in physics.
golden ratio is all over the Parthenon, apparently…
although I believe that is more to do with aesthetics than anything too structural
Dropbear said:
although I believe that is more to do with aesthetics than anything too structural
this thread has resemble an inward spiral rolls eyes
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Dropbear said:
although I believe that is more to do with aesthetics than anything too structural
this thread has resemble an inward spiral rolls eyes
once more in English?
Dropbear said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Dropbear said:
although I believe that is more to do with aesthetics than anything too structural
this thread has resemble an inward spiral rolls eyes
once more in English?
golden ratio is about mathematics. I don’t speak that
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Dropbear said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:this thread has resemble an inward spiral rolls eyes
once more in English?
golden ratio is about mathematics. I don’t speak that
ok, assuming you’re just stoned, and not retarded…
“Is the GR used in engineering?”
Answer: yes.. it’s used to make aesthetically pleasing buildings..
The general point that has been made here (or at other herelike online spaces) before is that supposed instances of the golden ratio in ancient buildings, human proportions or similar are in fact not sufficiently precise to distinguish them from any other ratio that is approximately 1.6 so there is a good deal of confirmation bias going on to make these claims.
grammar question…
I’m writing a letter of recommendation for the Rhodes Scholarship and I’m not sure which of these is the correct way to phrase a sentence…
1. {name} was the valedictorian for the 2011 civil engineering cohort…
2. {name} was the valedictorian of the 2011 civil engineering cohort…
sorry wrong fred
diddly-squat said:
grammar question…I’m writing a letter of recommendation for the Rhodes Scholarship and I’m not sure which of these is the correct way to phrase a sentence…
1. {name} was the valedictorian for the 2011 civil engineering cohort…
2. {name} was the valedictorian of the 2011 civil engineering cohort…
{name} am teh SMRT.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:I thought that was the job of real physicists??
No, explaining what you mean by a question is your job.
I’ve asked a very general question about whether there has been any studies that have looked at the golden ratio outside of geometrical inclusion in the growth of plants. How many times and how many would ways should I restate this?
You have also asked a very specific question about “energy momentum”, which no-one has been able to interpret. How many times do we have to ask you to explain what you mean?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
The Rev Dodgson said:No, explaining what you mean by a question is your job.
I’ve asked a very general question about whether there has been any studies that have looked at the golden ratio outside of geometrical inclusion in the growth of plants. How many times and how many would ways should I restate this?
You have also asked a very specific question about “energy momentum”, which no-one has been able to interpret. How many times do we have to ask you to explain what you mean?
n + 1
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
It might be tempting to consider this as an illustration of energy momentum, but the two things are different in terms of the maths.
I was providing it as an illustration of irritation. The purpose of the thread was intended to be simple. I was only seeking knowledge of any studies that would be considered legitimate, which had examined the golden ratio in relation to either physical motion or the characteristics of quantum related phenomena. I had no specific direction in mind apart from examining the mechanical attributes of said ratio.
The Effect of the Golden Ratio on Seismic Resistance
http://goldenratioinbridges.webs.com/
Discovering Phi: The Golden Ratio
http://www.teachengineering.org/view_activity.php?url=collection/nyu_/activities/nyu_phi/nyu_phi_activity1.xml
as an art student I find the Golden Ratio of interest, it does exist in nature, human hands, shells, ferns
I dont build bridges
What do our our more knowledgeable fellows here make of the first article
“it does exist in … human hands”
See earlier comment.
MartinB said:
“it does exist in … human hands”See earlier comment.
ok, confirmation bias
The patterns in plants and shell growth etc are genuine mathematical patterns that arise from the numbers mathematical properties, although even then the natural implementations are fairly approximate.
Some of the other patterns claimed are difficult to genuinely confirm.
MartinB said:
The patterns in plants and shell growth etc are genuine mathematical patterns that arise from the numbers mathematical properties, although even then the natural implementations are fairly approximate.Some of the other patterns claimed are difficult to genuinely confirm.
No, φ is not used in engineering at all, although it is sometimes used in architecture. The spirals found in nature and ascribed importance to φ are really associated with the Fibonacci ratio, which has the property that, if Fn and Fn+1 are successive Fibonacci numbers, Fn+1/Fn -> φ as n -> ∞.
Wocky said:
No, φ is not used in engineering at all, although it is sometimes used in architecture. The spirals found in nature and ascribed importance to φ are really associated with the Fibonacci ratio, which has the property that, if Fn and Fn+1 are successive Fibonacci numbers, Fn+1/Fn -> φ as n -> ∞.
If you were so smart grandpa, you’d have made the pedals reach my feet.
roughbarked said:
Wocky said:No, φ is not used in engineering at all, although it is sometimes used in architecture. The spirals found in nature and ascribed importance to φ are really associated with the Fibonacci ratio, which has the property that, if Fn and Fn+1 are successive Fibonacci numbers, Fn+1/Fn -> φ as n -> ∞.
If you were so smart grandpa, you’d have made the pedals reach my feet.
heh, that needs the image..
“I thought shell spirals was a Fibonacci sequence, not the golden ratio???”
The ratio between successive terms in a Fibonacci sequence approaches the golden ratio as the numbers get larger, so they are mathematically related.
MartinB said:
“I thought shell spirals was a Fibonacci sequence, not the golden ratio???”The ratio between successive terms in a Fibonacci sequence approaches the golden ratio as the numbers get larger, so they are mathematically related.
I see Wocky already said that. Soz.
roughbarked said:
roughbarked said:
Wocky said:No, φ is not used in engineering at all, although it is sometimes used in architecture. The spirals found in nature and ascribed importance to φ are really associated with the Fibonacci ratio, which has the property that, if Fn and Fn+1 are successive Fibonacci numbers, Fn+1/Fn -> φ as n -> ∞.
If you were so smart grandpa, you’d have made the pedals reach my feet.
heh, that needs the image..
:D
Riff-in-Thyme said:
The Rev Dodgson said:What do you think?
I think this looks really cool.
morrie said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
There are aspects of energy and momentum in that picture, but they are separate concepts and are described differently in terms of the maths.
There are also enough backflips there to make Abbott jealous.
The golden ratio is simply the ratio of the diagonal of a pentagon to its side. It’s no more useful than that.
Not much engineering uses pentagons, but any that does would involve the golden ratio. eg. the Pentagon, the “turning torso of malmo” http://www.globalconstructionwatch.com/turning-torso-in-malmo/, this piece of architecture from RMIT http://architecture.rmit.edu.au/About/Images/campus%20bldgs/mcr%20cubpo31.jpg
The geodesic dome uses the pentagon, but its engineering is based on the triangle rather than the pentagon.
The pentagon has none of the advantages of the triangle (strength, stability and stackability) or rectangle (best for gravity, stackability). Even aesthetically, the golden ratio is a wipe-out. At 1.618… the length to width is too large for beautiful aesthetics, a ratio of 1.5 is more pleasing to the eye, or even sqrt(2) = 1.414…
On a side note, I have seen a TV segment about a plastic surgeon who uses nested pentagons to design what he considers to be the perfect shape for a face. That could be classed as engineering.
I have met one person who used the geometry of Platonic solids to come up with a “Theory of Everything”. I got away from him fast.
As far as what I meant by energy momentum, after discussions with KJW I had picked the term up as a basic description of the nature of a particle. I wouldn’t have any idea where or how you would apply this ratio to examining particles but thought somebody may have at some point.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
As far as what I meant by energy momentum, after discussions with KJW I had picked the term up as a basic description of the nature of a particle. I wouldn’t have any idea where or how you would apply this ratio to examining particles but thought somebody may have at some point.
My day job is as an engineering contractor. This means that I have to turn some engineers gibberish into reality.
Energy momentum sounds like manure to me.
I have never had to use the supposed golden ratio in real life.
\Did you hear the joke about the engineer that built a concave building and melted a Jag…
Sorry about the double post but FTFunnny…
No seriously…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-03/london-driver-says-skyscraper-reflections-melted-his-car/4932320
Mr Ironic said:
\Did you hear the joke about the engineer that built a concave building and melted a Jag…
Sorry about the double post but FTFunnny…
I blame the architect. The engineer just built what he was told.
Apparently it was the Suns fault…
The skyscraper’s developers said they were seeking to rectify the problem which they blamed on the position of the sun at certain times of day.
FMD funny isn’t funny enough for this.
Mr Ironic said:
Apparently it was the Suns fault…
The skyscraper’s developers said they were seeking to rectify the problem which they blamed on the position of the sun at certain times of day.
FMD funny isn’t funny enough for this.
Daylight saving would have avoided this problem.
Mr Ironic said:
Apparently it was the Suns fault…
The skyscraper’s developers said they were seeking to rectify the problem which they blamed on the position of the sun at certain times of day.
FMD funny isn’t funny enough for this.
They haven’t even tried to deny it. It looks like a giant parabolic reflector. It wouldn’t have taken much though to work out the possibility of this happening.
Having said that, it is in London where the sun may or may not shine.
The Suzuki RG 500s used to develop what looked like cigarette burns on the plastic “dash” as the fairing concentrated light on it, lengthening the burn as the sun moved.
pommiejohn said:
Mr Ironic said:Apparently it was the Suns fault…
The skyscraper’s developers said they were seeking to rectify the problem which they blamed on the position of the sun at certain times of day.
FMD funny isn’t funny enough for this.
They haven’t even tried to deny it. It looks like a giant parabolic reflector. It wouldn’t have taken much though to work out the possibility of this happening.
Having said that, it is in London where the sun may or may not shine.
Skunkworks said:
The Suzuki RG 500s used to develop what looked like cigarette burns on the plastic “dash” as the fairing concentrated light on it, lengthening the burn as the sun moved.
They used to smoke enough without the dash catching fire.
The Suzuki RG 500s used to develop what looked like cigarette burns on the plastic “dash” as the fairing concentrated light on it, lengthening the burn as the sun moved.
ahhhh a campbell-stokes sunshine recorder.
They could reopen the 3 parking spots with the sign…
After 3pm you car will be melted…
Mr Ironic said:
They could reopen the 3 parking spots with the sign…
After 3pm you car will be melted…
“Strictly No Parking – Offenders Will Be Melted”
party_pants said:
Mr Ironic said:They could reopen the 3 parking spots with the sign…
After 3pm you car will be melted…
“Strictly No Parking – Offenders Will Be Melted”
peeled off the pavement?
Kingy said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:
As far as what I meant by energy momentum, after discussions with KJW I had picked the term up as a basic description of the nature of a particle. I wouldn’t have any idea where or how you would apply this ratio to examining particles but thought somebody may have at some point.
My day job is as an engineering contractor. This means that I have to turn some engineers gibberish into reality.
Energy momentum sounds like manure to me.
I have never had to use the supposed golden ratio in real life.
If people had interpreted the original 2 questions posted it might have been understood that due to my only having seen ‘woos’ applying the G/R to their particle physics, I did not understand their fixation with it if there had never been any interest from academia in it having any relevance to quantum physics. If Rev has never seen books on the origins of the pyramids and why the G/R is the answer to everything then he doesn’t know woo.
My only interest in this thread was in a basic history of the G/R since particle physics developed. If it has never been used to guide particle physics anywhere but in woo sheds then that story would probably be more interesting anyway.
Riff-in-Thyme said:
If Rev has never seen books on the origins of the pyramids and why the G/R is the answer to everything then he doesn’t know woo.
When I said I hadn’t seen it used anywhere, I meant in an engineering context.
But there’s lots of woo engineering I haven’t seen of course.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Riff-in-Thyme said:If Rev has never seen books on the origins of the pyramids and why the G/R is the answer to everything then he doesn’t know woo.When I said I hadn’t seen it used anywhere, I meant in an engineering context.
But there’s lots of woo engineering I haven’t seen of course.
I was referring to you mentioning not remembering seeing it in woo. Not having a go. The motive of the OP seems to have been confused. I’m only trying to figure out why you would try to find something quantum related in that ratio.
http://www.youtubeskip.com/watch?v=A1-AkZApoWA
Marcus du Sautoy – prime numbers in crystal vibrations.
this is quite interesting. dunno if it means anything but Sautoy seems to be an ok guy.
“Jan. 7, 2010 — Researchers from the Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie (HZB), in cooperation with colleagues from Oxford and Bristol Universities, as well as the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, UK, have for the first time observed a nanoscale symmetry hidden in solid state matter. They have measured the signatures of a symmetry showing the same attributes as the golden ratio famous from art and architecture”
but not engineering…
morrie said:
but not engineering…
yes, my mistake. bit surprised by the quartz vibration. as far as vibration goes, would prime numbers represent areas of dissonance or ????
> The Effect of the Golden Ratio on Seismic Resistance
> What do our our more knowledgeable fellows here make of the first article
They actually have a very good point there. I wrote a little wikipedia chapter on additive pseudo-random numbers. After numerical tests, the number that is “least like” a rational number turns out to be the Golden Ratio. I’ll see if I have a plot. I do.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o162/DavidPaterson/SSSF/GoldenRatio.gif
First look at the highest points on this graph. They have ordinates like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 2/5, ie. values that are rational numbers with small denominator. Then have a look at the lowest point on the graph, it has ordinates 0.382 = 2-phi, where phi is the golden ratio. If you arrange to have the natural frequency of a structure as close as possible to phi or 1/phi times the frequency of the forcing function (eg. earthquake frequency or wind vortex-shedding frequency) then you are most likely to avoid any resonant interaction. I was able to prove this.
mollwollfumble said:
> The Effect of the Golden Ratio on Seismic Resistance
> What do our our more knowledgeable fellows here make of the first articleThey actually have a very good point there. I wrote a little wikipedia chapter on additive pseudo-random numbers. After numerical tests, the number that is “least like” a rational number turns out to be the Golden Ratio. I’ll see if I have a plot. I do.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o162/DavidPaterson/SSSF/GoldenRatio.gif
Their conclusion was it didn’t make any difference.
mollwollfumble said:
First look at the highest points on this graph. They have ordinates like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 2/5, ie. values that are rational numbers with small denominator. Then have a look at the lowest point on the graph, it has ordinates 0.382 = 2-phi, where phi is the golden ratio. If you arrange to have the natural frequency of a structure as close as possible to phi or 1/phi times the frequency of the forcing function (eg. earthquake frequency or wind vortex-shedding frequency) then you are most likely to avoid any resonant interaction. I was able to prove this.
But if the forcing function has a range of frequencies, which are unknown prior to the event, that doesn’t seem very helpful.
The Rev Dodgson said:
mollwollfumble said:
> The Effect of the Golden Ratio on Seismic Resistance
> What do our our more knowledgeable fellows here make of the first articleThey actually have a very good point there. I wrote a little wikipedia chapter on additive pseudo-random numbers. After numerical tests, the number that is “least like” a rational number turns out to be the Golden Ratio. I’ll see if I have a plot. I do.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o162/DavidPaterson/SSSF/GoldenRatio.gif
Their conclusion was it didn’t make any difference.
mollwollfumble said:
First look at the highest points on this graph. They have ordinates like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 2/5, ie. values that are rational numbers with small denominator. Then have a look at the lowest point on the graph, it has ordinates 0.382 = 2-phi, where phi is the golden ratio. If you arrange to have the natural frequency of a structure as close as possible to phi or 1/phi times the frequency of the forcing function (eg. earthquake frequency or wind vortex-shedding frequency) then you are most likely to avoid any resonant interaction. I was able to prove this.
But if the forcing function has a range of frequencies, which are unknown prior to the event, that doesn’t seem very helpful.
Any reason for interest in the Gr is enough for the OP. Aside, would it be possible to have predict any frequencies graph from this?
The golden ratio (often represented by φ, the Greek letter phi) has been called the most irrational number because its successive continued fraction convergents Fn+1/Fn (where Fn is the nth Fibonacci number) are the slowest to approximate to its actual value.
Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#A_property_of_the_golden_ratio_.CF.86
Conversely, since its continued fraction converges so slowly there are plenty of fractions that are approximately equal to φ. So if a fraction that arises from some natural process happens to be roughly equal to φ it may be a coincidence rather than because of an actual mathematical connection to φ.
The defining equation of φ is that it is the positive solution to the quadratic equation
x² = x + 1
the other solution being 1-φ = -1 / φ.
Note that φ – (1-φ) = sqrt(5).
FWIW, Fn = (φn – (1-φ)n) / sqrt(5).
Multiplying the equation above by xn-1, we get
xn+1 = xn + xn-1.
In particular,
x = 1 + x-1
and
1 = x-1 + x-2.
So if we see a fraction that looks close to φ but we can’t see any reason why it ought to be connected with some form of this equation, then the connection to φ is probably just a coincidence. Of course, there’s also the possibility that it is actually connected to the defining equation of φ but we just haven’t discovered the connection yet.
:) that would explain any misguided fixations PM. Cool.
There’s an amusing— and not at all subtle —lesson to be learned from the travails of the “Christian” bakers in Oregon who claim that they’ve been the victims of harassment from gay activists—who they compared to the Mafia—but don’t expect the target of these efforts to understand what that (you’d think) hard-fought wisdom might entail…
Another equivalent property of phi is that its infinite continued fraction (written in compact form) is
MartinB said:
Another equivalent property of phi is that its infinite continued fraction (written in compact form) is
Then what happened?
Peak Warming Man said:
MartinB said:
Another equivalent property of phi is that its infinite continued fraction (written in compact form) is
Then what happened?
an epiphany…
MartinB said:
Another equivalent property of phi is that its infinite continued fraction (written in compact form) is
No square brackets if you please, MB
It had been said that the golden ratio is the size aspect ratio of paintings. I have always thought that that was wrong, and have confirmed that using the 49 most expensive paintings ever sold.
From wikipedia
The mean aspect ratio is 1.378 and median aspect ratio is 1.283. Not too far from 4/3 and from sqrt(2), but well short of 3/2 and 1.618.
mollwollfumble said:
It had been said that the golden ratio is the size aspect ratio of paintings. I have always thought that that was wrong, and have confirmed that using the 49 most expensive paintings ever sold.From wikipedia
The mean aspect ratio is 1.378 and median aspect ratio is 1.283. Not too far from 4/3 and from sqrt(2), but well short of 3/2 and 1.618.
So much for that theory.