Date: 30/09/2013 21:25:36
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405351
Subject: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Banks started making less sense about the time they were being robbed with tommy guns and contributing to the circumstances that set the scene for WWII. With the advent of the internet much of the banking system (un)impresses as being clunky and the question of it’s continuing relevance has to be reflected against the intentions of global development. The recent failure of the banks highlights the weakness of the system, if any had failed to notice the roles ‘economic management’ has played in the more questionable actions of various countries.

*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?

*If the ultimate purpose of global development is one of social stability, how does the current economic system fit into this?

*Does the current system support the charade type politics that is currently available in this country and what does that indicate socially?

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:29:10
From: Stealth
ID: 405352
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?
————————
How will I get paid without a bank in some guise? I don’t wont to be given cash every fortnight.

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:29:25
From: Dropbear
ID: 405353
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Try buying a house without one..

shakes head

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:29:32
From: wookiemeister
ID: 405355
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

society is about keeping other people down

banks are just one way of doing that.

it is by no mistake that Tyler Durban attacks the banking system

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:32:19
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405356
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Stealth said:

*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?
————————
How will I get paid without a bank in some guise? I don’t wont to be given cash every fortnight.

You do not think that reimbursement for effort could be handled more imaginatively?

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:34:44
From: Stealth
ID: 405357
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Riff-in-Thyme said:


Stealth said:
*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?
————————
How will I get paid without a bank in some guise? I don’t wont to be given cash every fortnight.

You do not think that reimbursement for effort could be handled more imaginatively?


My employer imagining that they have paid me is not going to help when I need to do the weekly shopping.

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:34:48
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405358
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Dropbear said:


Try buying a house without one..

shakes head

if i were to buy one house I’d have to subsequently collect them. I believe it is a genetic reflex with OCD type mechanisms. I stick to owning what I can build with my hands

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:37:09
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405360
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Stealth said:


Riff-in-Thyme said:

Stealth said:
*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?
————————
How will I get paid without a bank in some guise? I don’t wont to be given cash every fortnight.

You do not think that reimbursement for effort could be handled more imaginatively?


My employer imagining that they have paid me is not going to help when I need to do the weekly shopping.

Why could that not be handled entirely by internet? What does cash provide that is indispensable?

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:39:25
From: Stealth
ID: 405364
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Riff-in-Thyme said:


Stealth said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

You do not think that reimbursement for effort could be handled more imaginatively?


My employer imagining that they have paid me is not going to help when I need to do the weekly shopping.

Why could that not be handled entirely by internet? What does cash provide that is indispensable?


Absolutely it can (and in my case pretty much does) get done by internet/electronic means. But who is going to administer this internet funds transfer system if not the banks?

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Date: 30/09/2013 21:56:35
From: Michael V
ID: 405372
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Stealth said:


Riff-in-Thyme said:

Stealth said:

My employer imagining that they have paid me is not going to help when I need to do the weekly shopping.

Why could that not be handled entirely by internet? What does cash provide that is indispensable?


Absolutely it can (and in my case pretty much does) get done by internet/electronic means. But who is going to administer this internet funds transfer system if not the banks?
In East Africa (and, I imagine in many other parts of the world), mobile phone companies do this. You can put money on your phone (pre-paid style), take it off and transfer it to someone else’s phone. I understand they charge nothing for this service, but I may be wrong. What they have is very large amounts of cash in their system, some of which will be invested on the short-term money market.

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:00:08
From: Stealth
ID: 405374
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Michael V said:


Stealth said:

Riff-in-Thyme said:

Why could that not be handled entirely by internet? What does cash provide that is indispensable?


Absolutely it can (and in my case pretty much does) get done by internet/electronic means. But who is going to administer this internet funds transfer system if not the banks?
In East Africa (and, I imagine in many other parts of the world), mobile phone companies do this. You can put money on your phone (pre-paid style), take it off and transfer it to someone else’s phone. I understand they charge nothing for this service, but I may be wrong. What they have is very large amounts of cash in their system, some of which will be invested on the short-term money market.

Yes, but the phone compnay is acting just like a bank. And that happens here as well. CBA offer Kaching, a mobile app that lets you use your phone to transfer money normally or by facebook, email or mobile phone number. The other major bank offer similar services.

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:01:33
From: Kingy
ID: 405376
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Has anyone mentioned bitcoin yet?

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:03:32
From: Michael V
ID: 405379
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Stealth said:


Michael V said:

Stealth said:

Absolutely it can (and in my case pretty much does) get done by internet/electronic means. But who is going to administer this internet funds transfer system if not the banks?

In East Africa (and, I imagine in many other parts of the world), mobile phone companies do this. You can put money on your phone (pre-paid style), take it off and transfer it to someone else’s phone. I understand they charge nothing for this service, but I may be wrong. What they have is very large amounts of cash in their system, some of which will be invested on the short-term money market.

Yes, but the phone compnay is acting just like a bank. And that happens here as well. CBA offer Kaching, a mobile app that lets you use your phone to transfer money normally or by facebook, email or mobile phone number. The other major bank offer similar services.

Sure they are acting like a bank. But they aren’t a bank. (Your question was “But who is going to administer this internet funds transfer system if not the banks?”)

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:06:06
From: dv
ID: 405381
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

(shrugs)

Banking has changed tremendously in the last two hundred years. I am sure that it will continue to change, but that there will continuing to be a banking system for the foreseeable future.

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:07:47
From: Stealth
ID: 405384
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Michael V said:


Stealth said:

Michael V said:

In East Africa (and, I imagine in many other parts of the world), mobile phone companies do this. You can put money on your phone (pre-paid style), take it off and transfer it to someone else’s phone. I understand they charge nothing for this service, but I may be wrong. What they have is very large amounts of cash in their system, some of which will be invested on the short-term money market.

Yes, but the phone compnay is acting just like a bank. And that happens here as well. CBA offer Kaching, a mobile app that lets you use your phone to transfer money normally or by facebook, email or mobile phone number. The other major bank offer similar services.

Sure they are acting like a bank. But they aren’t a bank. (Your question was “But who is going to administer this internet funds transfer system if not the banks?”)


And my very first post said ‘a bank in some guise’. To misquote Shakesperes “Whats in a name, a bank by any other name would smell as stinky”

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:08:36
From: Aquila
ID: 405385
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Banks per se are not the problem, it’s the system mechanism which is the problem.
Fractional reserve banking for one.
Ever increasing debt/credit.
The “banking system” being sanctioned by government to create money out of thin air, money which comes from an unproductive source.
Devaluing the dollar and creating an inflation trend, this is not how natural healthy bio-diverse systems function.

Central banks should be shut down because their only purpose is to “control” the economy at will by manipulating the price of money (interest rates)….instead of allowing the “free market” to set the price….it’s a ruse and only truely benefits those who control the system.
The US Fed is liquidating their economy by the value of $85 billion per month, around $1 trillion per year, since the GFC, creating more debt when they cannot pay the debt they already have.
Artificially boosting stock markets, creating the illusion of wealth when in fact the only people benefiting from this new wealth are the “insiders”.

The “system” is corrupt and serves the elite power brokers and props up zombiefied goverment shams.
The system increases citizens/corporate reliance on the state instead of allowing the free market to work as it should.
Governments and central banks and zombified economists seem unable to allow market forces to do their work, naturally, instead they try to control the direction and are expected to prop up an indebted system which is doomed to fail, creating more problems than would be if they pulled their sticky fingers out of the pie.

No Title

Don’t worry, I can hear many of you laughing at me….shrug….
Doesn’t mean I’m not still trying to work the “system” for my own benefit…what other choice is there?
/rant

cya : )

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:28:38
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405399
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Stealth said:


And my very first post said ‘a bank in some guise’. To misquote Shakesperes “Whats in a name, a bank by any other name would smell as stinky”

So why can’t we pre-empt things by appointing a board of hardware and software engineers as being responsible for the economy?

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:31:04
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 405404
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

So why can’t we pre-empt things by appointing a board of hardware and software engineers as being responsible for the economy?

What makes you think they would understand and manage the economy better than professional economists?

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:32:24
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405406
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Witty Rejoinder said:


Riff-in-Thyme said:

So why can’t we pre-empt things by appointing a board of hardware and software engineers as being responsible for the economy?

What makes you think they would understand and manage the economy better than professional economists?

at least they would have a better sense of maths :o

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:44:43
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 405409
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Witty Rejoinder said:


Riff-in-Thyme said:

So why can’t we pre-empt things by appointing a board of hardware and software engineers as being responsible for the economy?

What makes you think they would understand and manage the economy better than professional economists?

The other response would be ‘what economy?’

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:52:43
From: sibeen
ID: 405419
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Riff-in-Thyme said:

*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?

No.

next

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:54:49
From: Stealth
ID: 405420
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

sibeen said:


Riff-in-Thyme said:

*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?

No.

next


Yeah, good point well made. I tried the old ‘logical arguement’ angle, but your your way is nearly infinitly better.

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Date: 30/09/2013 22:55:06
From: party_pants
ID: 405422
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

sibeen said:


Riff-in-Thyme said:

*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?

No.

next

Thanks Sibeen. I read the thread and was looking for the words to express that same sentiment. But I decided on the third paragraph it was too long-winded and deleted my post.

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Date: 1/10/2013 01:33:11
From: Ian
ID: 405585
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

This is closely related -

SMH economist/journalist Ross Gittins on 25/9 wrote:

Coalition heading backwards with first steps

I’m starting to think we didn’t get much of a deal when we decided to change the federal government. We got rid of a bunch racked by infighting and bad at executing policy, but substituted a bunch with a very limited idea of what needed to be changed to get us back on the right path.

What a to-do list: sack econocrats guilty of having worked with the enemy, pass an edict against climate change and discourage all discussion of it, stop publicising boat arrivals, build more motorways, move to a cut-price national broadband network and take science for granted.
It’s early days, of course, and there’s more, but not a whole lot more: abolishing the onerous tax on our impoverished global mining companies, getting rid of red and green tape (translation: making it easier for big business to get its way without delay) and beating up the Tax Office for being too diligent in making small business pay its tax.

It’s as if Tony Abbott believes returning the Liberals to power will, of itself, solve most of our problems. Everything was fine when we last had a Liberal government, so restore the Libs and everything will be fine again.

It smacks of complacency, of a belief that nothing much has changed or could change. But that’s not how Ian McAuley, an economist at the University of Canberra, sees it in his chapter of a new book from the Centre for Policy Development, Pushing Our Luck: Ideas for Australian Progress.

McAuley argues that, after another round of good luck with the resources boom, we need to secure our long-term prosperity by building a more resilient economy. (He harbours the eccentric notion that there’s more to economy policy than balancing the budget, but even Abbott has abandoned that goal.)

“The legacy of our economic history conditions how we think,” McAuley says. “After Federation we diversified our economy by building up a strong manufacturing base behind tariff walls. That started out as a smart policy, but it has left us with an undue concern for ‘making things’ rather than creating value.

“Our success in commodities, which allows for little product differentiation, has contributed to a ‘price taker’ mentality in business and therefore an obsession with production costs. We think about productivity in terms of mere cost reduction, particularly when labour costs are involved …

“And our strong growth in the 20th century has created unrealistic expectations about profitability; we find it hard to imagine that the days of easy investment returns may be behind us.”
We need to break free of the notion that our economic fortune must inevitably be driven by the fluctuating demand for minerals and energy, McAuley argues.

And our dependence on coal exports makes us particularly vulnerable.

“As more countries place a price on carbon, or switch to other energy sources for local environmental or health reasons, there is a chance that we could find ourselves left with some large holes in the ground and idle ports and railways.”

The experience of many countries shows that an abundance of natural resources can become a curse because it leads them to keep all their eggs in one basket.
“The consensus among economists is that countries can avoid the resource curse only by treating natural resources as an opportunity to invest through a sovereign wealth fund or domestically in education and infrastructure.

“We should see carbon pricing as an opportunity for industry modernisation, to prepare for an era in which many countries are cleaning up their energy sectors and limiting their carbon emissions.”

McAuley says the old manufacturing model was one in which physical capital was expensive and labour was comparatively cheap. Our thinking, still focused on physical capital, distracts us from a new realisation of the meaning and role of capital.

“Capital in the form of a row of machines or a fleet of trucks is less important than the capital in the form of ideas, skills and education, capacities to communicate and to work with others – human capital, in other words. It is the knowledge worker who is emerging as the capitalist of our day, but we are a long way from recognising this.”

Rather than thinking about manufacturing and its products, we should think about activities people undertake in adding customer value. Some activities involve transformations to physical products, but there are many other ways to apply skills to add value.

“Policies directed at developing manufacturing for its own sake are bound to fail. Those that enable businesses to adapt to big changes and to develop strong positions in global value chains are more likely to be effective for all businesses, regardless of their sector.”

In summary, McAuley says we need to understand the risks of being too dependent on natural resources, break from our old obsession with producing physical products, focus on increasing customer value and not just reducing costs, get rid of the class struggle model of economic activity, stop thinking the only goal is job creation and develop realistic ideas about the rate of profitability.

“We pay far too little attention to our human capital. We still see education expenditure as an expense, or even as a welfare entitlement. And we pay even less attention to our environmental, social and institutional capital,” he concludes.

It’s hard to imagine Abbott has any of these things in his field of vision….

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Date: 1/10/2013 01:33:30
From: Ian
ID: 405587
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

To which I responded:

A very good article as usual Ross (Coalition heading backwards with first steps, September 25). You make some good points about the short-sighted thinking leading us toward a future for Australia where big pits in the ground from abandoned coal mines mark the graveyard of a failed period of government… and about the need to encourage young people working with ideas or human capital as you put it…

“It is the knowledge worker who is emerging as the capitalist of our day, but we are a long way from recognising this.”

I thought that the use of that quote was quite strange, however. I suppose that your myopic outlook vis-a-vis the economists’ and the capitalists’ potential to steer us safely into the future is a natural consequence of being a working economist. What have economists ever done except from trying and failing to hang on to the girth rope as the mad beast that is the current system bucks and twists and inevitably throws the poor rider to the ground?

Economists directing a capitalist system, so far, have produced very good material outcomes for those of us living in the first world… but their entire model is broken. Economists (especially those managing our financial institutions) merely tinker at the edges to keep the whole beastly thing from falling in great big heap as is still happening in the US and Europe, while they themselves are up to the ear ‘oles… snouts in the trough, and unless a radical rethink of the entire thing is undertaken I am afraid that we are in for a very bumpy ride indeed.

If, as you have suggested in the past, economists started thinking more about the triple bottom line (a term that you don’t hear bandied about much these days) they could be steering us onto a sustainable path. Given their muddied perspective however, I think that their species will shortly top the list of those on the critically endangered list.

Maybe the new publicly funded Australian Climate Council could spread its wings and incorporate a department to act a finishing school to economists after they finish their bachelor’s degree.


(The letters editor emailed me that my effort was short-listed for publication)

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Date: 1/10/2013 22:57:44
From: Mr Ironic
ID: 406254
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

Simple stuff is so complicated now…

Oh well, as long everyone has a job to do.

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Date: 2/10/2013 08:37:30
From: transition
ID: 406371
Subject: re: Is "Banking" an outdated tool that is counter-productive to modern development?

>*Is the banking system a relic of the past that we should be seeking to discard?

Relics and the past appear to have some use in the now and future.

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