Date: 12/10/2013 05:08:34
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 411483
Subject: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

The quadcopter has taken off as a toy, and as a remote sensing tool. It has extraordinary stability.

I want to see it scaled-up to full-size. There are several factors involved here – one is that the longer the blades the less power is needed to fly, so the blades should be as long as possible, with two not three blades per propeller. Ducted fans tend to be heavier so I don’t recommend them unless you want to try for sub-millimetre gaps between the blades and duct.

On seeing the quadcopter, the standard helicopter with one large and one small propeller on helicopters reminds me of penny-farthing bicycle, with a motor fitted, a poor design so far as stability is concerned. A two propeller helicopter is analogous to a bicycle or motorcycle. A quadcopter is analogous to a cart, car, or, with legs, quadruped.

In analogy with a quadruped’s gait, I would set up a full-size quadcopter with the same rotational rate for each propeller. That would allow overlapping of propeller tip circles, giving a full width approaching 1.5 propeller lengths instead of >> 2 propeller lengths for toy quadcopters, making landing easier and maximising propeller length. What of interference between propellers? I’ve seen numerical simulations of the airflow around a helicopter rotor and the disturbance moves downward very rapidly, if it didn’t then one blade on the propeller would interfere with the next. The frame holding these propellers could be square, but better slightly rectangular to give a preferred direction of motion (possibly even trapezoidal).

The overlap on the propeller tip circles ties in with the quadcopter analogy of quadruped “gait”. For example one gait would be to have the left front propeller blade pointing forward at the same time as the rear right points 45 degrees from that, front left 90 degrees and rear left 135 degrees, bringing us back to 180 degrees (full circle for a two-bladed propeller) for the left front.

The success of the quadcopter makes me think of the possibility of a quad-plane. Not a biplane with one wing above another but having two wings in front of the other two. This is sort of like using a canard wing but much larger and with attached engines. To envisage the stability of a conventional aeroplane think of a ruler whose centre is balanced on a finger, any slight deviation and it will go unstable. A quadplane would be like a ruler balanced on two fingers some distance apart, very much more stable. In addition, shorter wings would be required which would allow large planes to land at small airports. Just an idea. I wouldn’t tend to line the engines on the front wings up with those on the hind wings, instead I’d be more inclined to go for a cheetah-like analogy with the engines on the larger hind wings outboard of those on the front wings. But it may be OK to have front and rear wings the same size with the same engines in the same positions, like gazelles.

Any comments? Pictures?

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Date: 12/10/2013 06:50:21
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 411485
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

Some cool vids.

A bloke in north Sydney that’s very good with flying his in close proximity to ….. everything.

http://youtu.be/bsrzBwylodU

The model copters usually just vary the motor rpm to vary the thrust and so can’t fly inverted for any length of time. There’s a small number of copters being developed that run the props at constant rpm and vary the blade pitch, like a regular helicopter.
This one is for sale soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO9hQRny86k

As for airflow interference from the props, they usually only suffer noticeably from that when descending at low or zero speed – they can get quite a wobble going and in rare cases tip right over.

The quad-plane thing has been done a few times, AFAIK, but they are difficult to give as much dynamic stability to compared to conventional aeroplanes.

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Date: 12/10/2013 08:26:21
From: Dropbear
ID: 411486
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

Seems like a lot of area needed for small payloads ?

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Date: 12/10/2013 08:33:22
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 411487
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

The big difference between helicopters and land supported vehicles and animals is that in land supported things the centre of gravity is above the points of support, so if you have a point or line support you need constant dynamic adjustment to maintain stability, whereas with a helicopter the point of support is above the centre of gravity, so even one point of support is stable.

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Date: 12/10/2013 08:39:48
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 411488
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

The Rev Dodgson said:


The big difference between helicopters and land supported vehicles and animals is that in land supported things the centre of gravity is above the points of support, so if you have a point or line support you need constant dynamic adjustment to maintain stability, whereas with a helicopter the point of support is above the centre of gravity, so even one point of support is stable.

FWIW the multicopters can be quite stable even with very asymmetric loadings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5_6nh1UpZs

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Date: 12/10/2013 12:37:10
From: Kingy
ID: 411551
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

mollwollfumble said:

In analogy with a quadruped’s gait, I would set up a full-size quadcopter with the same rotational rate for each propeller. That would allow overlapping of propeller tip circles, giving a full width approaching 1.5 propeller lengths instead of >> 2 propeller lengths for toy quadcopters, making landing easier and maximising propeller length. What of interference between propellers? I’ve seen numerical simulations of the airflow around a helicopter rotor and the disturbance moves downward very rapidly, if it didn’t then one blade on the propeller would interfere with the next. The frame holding these propellers could be square, but better slightly rectangular to give a preferred direction of motion (possibly even trapezoidal).

The overlap on the propeller tip circles ties in with the quadcopter analogy of quadruped “gait”. For example one gait would be to have the left front propeller blade pointing forward at the same time as the rear right points 45 degrees from that, front left 90 degrees and rear left 135 degrees, bringing us back to 180 degrees (full circle for a two-bladed propeller) for the left front.

I may be wrong, but as I understand it, in order to rotate the entire quadcopter, they must change the rotational speed of some props which would interfere with your proposed phasing.

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Date: 12/10/2013 12:52:41
From: Riff-in-Thyme
ID: 411559
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

any particular rotor placement is likely to be purpose specific. If the quad is for lifting it is going to have a wider spaced array while something that is designed to be fast and maneuverable will have a tight formation .

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Date: 12/10/2013 14:38:40
From: wookiemeister
ID: 411620
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/118131-two-seater-german-made-multicopter-flying-machine-on-its-way

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Date: 12/10/2013 14:44:14
From: wookiemeister
ID: 411625
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

mollwollfumble said:


I want to see it scaled-up to full-size. There are several factors involved here – one is that the longer the blades the less power is needed to fly, so the blades should be as long as possible, with two not three blades per propeller. Ducted fans tend to be heavier so I don’t recommend them unless you want to try for sub-millimetre gaps between the blades and duct

i’m not so sure about the power thing

if you are trying to turn a blade that’s got air resistance at the very end of the tip wouldn’t it get harder to turn the propeller if its longer?

moments of force and all that

the other problem is power supply, the bigger you go the heavier it becomes and the less the flying time

these things are limited by power supply more than anything else i’d say

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Date: 12/10/2013 14:55:58
From: wookiemeister
ID: 411632
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

the other thing is as the fans get bigger they’ll need to be balanced and built to stay balanced – getting expensive

drones so far rely on forward speed to remain aloft and have a long range capability

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Date: 12/10/2013 20:08:51
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 411904
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

Large Quadcopter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw

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Date: 12/10/2013 20:18:25
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 411907
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

CrazyNeutrino said:

Large Quadcopter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw

should be large multi-copter

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Date: 12/10/2013 20:48:55
From: CrazyNeutrino
ID: 411953
Subject: re: Quadcopter, quadruped, quadplane?

Quadcopter rescuing another quadcopter from top of a castle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQQsG-xauAg

:)

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